How the Democrats could do something useful

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Darth_Erebus
Instead of attacking Bush they could do something positive

xmarksthespot
That's unlikely to happen, considering you don't really have a left wing in your country. You have the extreme right, the centre-right and the centre, and a smidgen of the centre-left.

(Additionally I thought we put a moratorium on new U.S. politics threads for the time being... since there are already quite a few.)

Strangelove
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's unlikely to happen, considering you don't really have a left wing in your country. You have the extreme right, the centre-right and the centre, and a smidgen of the centre-left.

(Additionally I thought we put a moratorium on new U.S. politics threads for the time being... since there are already quite a few.) blink not true. There are plenty of far-left people in the US, they just haven't had a voice for 6 years.

And a majority of Americans support Universal Health Care

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Strangelove
blink not true. There are plenty of far-left people in the US, they just haven't had a voice for 6 years.

And a majority of Americans support Universal Health Care I meant in your political institutions. Other than your new socialist Vermont Senator I suppose.

Edit: But frankly even among the ordinary population the U.S. is still relative to other western nations far more conservative and religious.

Strangelove
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I meant in your political institutions. Other than your new socialist Vermont Senator I suppose.

Edit: But frankly even among the ordinary population the U.S. is still relative to other western nations far more conservative and religious. Unfortunately, yes

xmarksthespot
Interesting tidbit Americans are more likely to elect a homosexual President than an atheist President.

PVS
while i agree with socializing medicine, its weak how you word it to imply that all democrats (mostly moderates, despite what the "san francisco values" strawman bashers wasnt you to believe) will simply exist as the house/senate majority to attack bush.

with that said, i think attacking bush is useless. now impeachment on the other hand...very useful

Soleran
That was an interesting read, I certainly don't agree with it all.

Socialized healthcare isn't the save all, in my opinion.

Ya Krunk'd Floo
Sure, socialise the healthcare so that all the good doctors turn private, and then leave the crappy ones for the poor people who will have to wait until they're dead to get their appointment anyway. Oh, that's what happens now, right? Why the need for change then?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Instead of attacking Bush they could do something positive
This will not end well.

Council#13
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Instead of attacking Bush they could do something positive

Rreeeeepublican.... ermm

lord xyz
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's unlikely to happen, considering you don't really have a left wing in your country. You have the extreme right, the centre-right and the centre, and a smidgen of the centre-left.

(Additionally I thought we put a moratorium on new U.S. politics threads for the time being... since there are already quite a few.) Which country are you from.

Alliance
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Edit: But frankly even among the ordinary population the U.S. is still relative to other western nations far more conservative and religious.

Very true thumb up. We are a smidgeon backwards.

I think its very likely that the democrats will be useful. Iraq won't be fixed, but hopefully lots of other stuff will be.

Socializing medicine is a BIG deal and with our current defecit, is not going to happen. That is an '08 issue assuming the budget can get under control (which is unlikely, looking at Iraq).

Under the 110th congress:
1. No bid contracts will end.
2. Tax breaks for the wealthy will be repealed.
3. Comprehensive Immigration reform will be passed.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by lord xyz
Which country are you from. New Zealand.

Soleran
Originally posted by Alliance
Socializing medicine is a BIG deal

Ugh people need to pull their head out of their ass on this issue.



Doh



Really doesn't make a difference, another issue folks need to come to realize.



Very good

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Soleran
Really doesn't make a differenceYou do realize no matter how many times you say that it doesn't alter reality.

Soleran
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You do realize no matter how many times you say that it doesn't alter reality.


Yes well whatever thats supposed to mean. Have you ever paid tax's in the USA or spoke with a CPA about them?

The rich can pay someone to work through so many loopholes closing off tax reforms means VERY VERY little to them.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Soleran
Yes well whatever thats supposed to mean. Have you ever paid tax's in the USA or spoke with a CPA about them?

The rich can pay someone to work through so many loopholes closing off tax reforms means VERY VERY little to them. I took your comment to mean that tax cuts haven't had any negative impact on the state of your federal budget, which you've been trumpeting without any real basis.

Rich people find loopholes, isn't exactly news.

Soleran
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I took your comment to mean that tax cuts haven't had any negative impact on the state of your federal budget, which you've been trumpeting without any real basis.




As compared to the war, they haven't thats a different topic.

Yes the rich do because they can afford to.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Instead of attacking Bush they could do something positive

What use have Republicans been? Other than ****ing up this country ?

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Soleran
As compared to the war, they haven't thats a different topic. That's bullshit, but yes a different topic.

Strangelove
Originally posted by Soleran
Really doesn't make a difference, another issue folks need to come to realize.Do you remember what happened when Clinton raised taxes on the 1% of the country but cut the taxes on middle and lower-class people? A balanced budget and economic growth nationwide. Growth that has been squandered into a horrible deficit by the Bush administration. It makes a difference

Strangelove
Originally posted by Soleran
The rich can pay someone to work through so many loopholes closing off tax reforms means VERY VERY little to them. You do realize that's the worst argument for any behavior, right?

"Hey, let's make it absolutely legal to commit a hate crime, because if we don't, people will find a way around the law anyway!"

Soleran
Originally posted by Strangelove
Do you remember what happened when Clinton raised taxes on the 1% of the country but cut the taxes on middle and lower-class people? A balanced budget and economic growth nationwide. Growth that has been squandered into a horrible deficit by the Bush administration. It makes a difference

Govt spending is as much the culperate as the income itself so a tax piece in and of itself is shit.

Tax's aren't the solution either way how long is it going to take people to realize this?



WTF are you talking about?

Lana
Okay, enough whining about the damn taxes.

If I remember correctly, the US has one of the lowest income tax rates in the world.

That, and cutting taxes for those who can afford to pay them the most is just downright stupid.

Strangelove
Originally posted by Lana
If I remember correctly, the US has one of the lowest income tax rates in the world.That's because the U.S. has a much higher population than the countries with high tax rates

RedAlertv2
Seeing as how the richest 2% of the US recieves 40% of the overall tax breaks, things need to change

Soleran
Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Seeing as how the richest 2% of the US recieves 40% of the overall tax breaks, things need to change


How much do they pay into the system?

An enormous percentage of taxes are payed by a minority of Americans:

* The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.
* The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.

right wrong or indifferent that's alot of tax's.

http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/

Darth_Erebus
Originally posted by Soleran
How much do they pay into the system?

An enormous percentage of taxes are payed by a minority of Americans:

* The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.
* The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.

right wrong or indifferent that's alot of tax's.

http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/

Yes that's true, but the top 1% and 5% of the population collectively control 90% of the money in existance as opposed to paying just 50% of the taxes. It's time to raise taxes on the super rich.

Soleran
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Yes that's true, but the top 1% and 5% of the population collectively control 90% of the money in existance as opposed to paying just 50% of the taxes. It's time to raise taxes on the super rich.


Once again lets clear this up, raising tax's on the super rich doesn't have the results that you are hoping for, which would be more money to spend on those that don't hardly pay any tax's at all.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Soleran
Once again lets clear this up, raising tax's on the super rich doesn't have the results that you are hoping for, which would be more money to spend on those that don't hardly pay any tax's at all. Conversely giving them tax cuts they really don't need to begin with reduces federal revenues resulting in budget deficit.

Darth_Erebus
Originally posted by Soleran
Once again lets clear this up, raising tax's on the super rich doesn't have the results that you are hoping for, which would be more money to spend on those that don't hardly pay any tax's at all.

There will always be taxes to pay for everyone but a certain percentage of the population shouldn't pay any income taxes. The financial strain on infrastructure is largely caused by illegal immigrants.

The tax equation is complicated but the massive budget deficiets and national debt need to be adressed. First of all corporate tax needs to be dealt with. No more corporate welfare. High taxes on corporations who outsource operations to other countries while giving more tax breaks to companies that keep operations here in the US. Business tax breaks will be determined by how much in assets a company has. The more assets, the fewer tax breaks.

Abolish federal income taxes for anyone making less than $50K a year, keep the current tax for those making $50K to $200K and put a graduating tax scale for those making over $200K a year, obviously puting ever higher tax brackets the more someone makes. Abolish most tax shelters for individuals except for the mortgage interest of the primary residence only.

A constitutional amendment requiring a balanced budget should be put in place. Government spending is a major part of the problem.

This costly war in Iraq doesn't help, time for a withdrawl.

Some will argue that this system of taxation penalizes sucess but the tax code, the business and trade laws are currently set up to push wealth towards the top with it being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. It's time for that to stop.

Soleran
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Conversely giving them tax cuts they really don't need to begin with reduces federal revenues resulting in budget deficit.

Yes and once again I have to tell you this, increasing thier tax's won't generate a significant source of revenue as they can have their CPA's work enough of the loopholes you won't see much if any more money from them. We should have the govt downsizing rather then finding new ways to pay into it and have the govt grow larger.
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
There will always be taxes to pay for everyone but a certain percentage of the population shouldn't pay any income taxes. The financial strain on infrastructure is largely caused by illegal immigrants.

The tax equation is complicated but the massive budget deficiets and national debt need to be adressed. First of all corporate tax needs to be dealt with. No more corporate welfare. High taxes on corporations who outsource operations to other countries while giving more tax breaks to companies that keep operations here in the US. Business tax breaks will be determined by how much in assets a company has. The more assets, the fewer tax breaks.

Abolish federal income taxes for anyone making less than $50K a year, keep the current tax for those making $50K to $200K and put a graduating tax scale for those making over $200K a year, obviously puting ever higher tax brackets the more someone makes. Abolish most tax shelters for individuals except for the mortgage interest of the primary residence only.

A constitutional amendment requiring a balanced budget should be put in place. Government spending is a major part of the problem.

This costly war in Iraq doesn't help, time for a withdrawl.

Some will argue that this system of taxation penalizes sucess but the tax code, the business and trade laws are currently set up to push wealth towards the top with it being concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. It's time for that to stop.

Yup and that's a retarded tax code, penalize the successful and reward those that generate significantly less if anything at all, talk about a flawed system.

Darth_Erebus
Originally posted by Soleran



Yup and that's a retarded tax code, penalize the successful and reward those that generate significantly less if anything at all, talk about a flawed system.

No, it's a very workable solution, and a very fair one. You simply can't have the current system where only the very rich get everything while shoving the cost on the rapidly shrinking middle class and expect it to be sustainable.

Soleran
Originally posted by Soleran
How much do they pay into the system?

An enormous percentage of taxes are payed by a minority of Americans:

* The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes.
* The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.

right wrong or indifferent that's alot of tax's.

http://www.allegromedia.com/sugi/taxes/

We have already established that 50% of all income tax's are paid by the top 5% of the income earners. Instead you recomend shifting 90% of the cost to the top 5% and expect that to be fair, for who I might ask?

So we leave 10% of the difference to the remaining 95% of the population and you don't see a problem with that? I realize you like dobbs and thats cool he has some good insight but this isn't one of them.

First we should make the govt shrink and do govt cutbacks before we start looking to give them more money in anyway shape or form.

Darth_Erebus
Originally posted by Soleran
We have already established that 50% of all income tax's are paid by the top 5% of the income earners. Instead you recomend shifting 90% of the cost to the top 5% and expect that to be fair, for who I might ask?


Since they control 90% of the money, they should also pay 90% of the taxes, that IS fair





So we leave 10% of the difference to the remaining 95% of the population and you don't see a problem with that? I realize you like dobbs and thats cool he has some good insight but this isn't one of them.

If unions were stronger and wages were higher and thus a more equitable distribution of wealth then a more even tax system is in order. Under your/the current system the very wealthy make all the money yet defer the taxes to those that have limited incomes. Well, you just can't have it both ways




First we should make the govt shrink and do govt cutbacks before we start looking to give them more money in anyway shape or form.

Well, at least we can agree on something

Soleran
Unions aren't the greatest tools either so lets not go there. Unions are so large now they generate TONS of revenues off the actualy guild members now and drive up costs significantly.

I am not for this current system of taxation I have started a number of threads in the past regarding this. However having 5% of the population paying 90% of the tax's would in essence give them more control then you could ever imagine, thats not a good idea.

FeceMan
I has a solution to many of the problems.

Ahh, if only I turned that in as an actual essay...

Badabing
Fact:
Increasing the tax burden on the wealthy stagnates investments and slows the economy. A vibrant economy is accomplished with investments by the people which in turn produces more jobs.

Fact:
Jimmy Carter made tax increases that brought the USA into a recession. Unemployment was at an all time high.

Fact:
Ronald Reagan's tax cuts in the 1980's brought the USA out of the recession. These tax cuts also freed capital for R & D. We have all the nice electronic gadgets today because corporations were able to explore new technologies due to investments, lower taxes and the free market economy which is based on competition.

Fact:
It's a miracle that the USA has such a robust economy today after 9/11, Katrina and with the War on Terror. The unemployment rate is below 5%. The reason is the tax cuts and a free market economy based on competition. Small businesses are also flourishing. As a business owner I know about this first hand.

Fact:
Socialism has failed everywhere. Wealth redistribution, entitlements and a large, central government is always the wrong answer. Check the economy of France. They've adopted a Socialist system and their economy is stagnant. Cuba is doing well. The former USSR collapsed.

A free and competitive open market is the best system in the World. That's the reason everybody is trying to get in the USA, a better life with great opportunity. A Socialist system with government handouts breeds nothing but complacency and apathy. I believe that the US Government does have an obligation to care for the aged, disabled and unfortunate but they should also promote self reliance as part of the Welfare System.

xmarksthespot
Uh... fact: the record Federal budget deficit the U.S. currently has is in significant part due to the tax cuts of W's Administration.

Darth_Erebus
Originally posted by Badabing
Fact:
Increasing the tax burden on the wealthy stagnates investments and slows the economy. A vibrant economy is accomplished with investments by the people which in turn produces more jobs.

Fact:
Jimmy Carter made tax increases that brought the USA into a recession. Unemployment was at an all time high.

Fact:
Ronald Reagan's tax cuts in the 1980's brought the USA out of the recession. These tax cuts also freed capital for R & D. We have all the nice electronic gadgets today because corporations were able to explore new technologies due to investments, lower taxes and the free market economy which is based on competition.

Fact:
It's a miracle that the USA has such a robust economy today after 9/11, Katrina and with the War on Terror. The unemployment rate is below 5%. The reason is the tax cuts and a free market economy based on competition. Small businesses are also flourishing. As a business owner I know about this first hand.

Fact:
Socialism has failed everywhere. Wealth redistribution, entitlements and a large, central government is always the wrong answer. Check the economy of France. They've adopted a Socialist system and their economy is stagnant. Cuba is doing well. The former USSR collapsed.

A free and competitive open market is the best system in the World. That's the reason everybody is trying to get in the USA, a better life with great opportunity. A Socialist system with government handouts breeds nothing but complacency and apathy. I believe that the US Government does have an obligation to care for the aged, disabled and unfortunate but they should also promote self reliance as part of the Welfare System.

All that is good except for...debt, debt, debt, and more debt. Thank the powers that be starting with Ronnie. The American consumer, despite stagnant wages, has more gadgets than ever. How is that? His debt level is at an historic high and his savings rates are lower than during the great depression. We simply cannot follow the free market philosiphy of buying from China and borrowing from anyone willing to finance. If we enacted some trade barriers, and raised the tax levels on the people with all the money then we could still be capitalist while cutting our deficiets. The time is going to come to pay the piper, and real soon.

Btw, no one is advocating socialism or handouts. We can still be capitalist, but be capitalist IN America. There's no reason a CEO needs to make 400 times what a blue collar worker does. That isn't free market, that's just plain greed.

Badabing
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Uh... fact: the record Federal budget deficit the U.S. currently has is in significant part due to the tax cuts of W's Administration. Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
All that is good except for...debt, debt, debt, and more debt. Thank the powers that be starting with Ronnie. The American consumer, despite stagnant wages, has more gadgets than ever. How is that? His debt level is at an historic high and his savings rates are lower than during the great depression. We simply cannot follow the free market philosiphy of buying from China and borrowing from anyone willing to finance. If we enacted some trade barriers, and raised the tax levels on the people with all the money then we could still be capitalist while cutting our deficiets. The time is going to come to pay the piper, and real soon.

Btw, no one is advocating socialism or handouts. We can still be capitalist, but be capitalist IN America. There's no reason a CEO needs to make 400 times what a blue collar worker does. That isn't free market, that's just plain greed. That's a very myopic point. It's a matter of record that the Federal Government has taken in more money due to the tax cuts than it did during the Clinton Administration. Higher incomes = higher collected taxes. More purchases = higher collected taxes. 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror are reasons for the deficit. Nice try though. wink

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Badabing
That's a very myopic point. It's a matter of record that the Federal Government has taken in more money due to the tax cuts than it did during the Clinton Administration. Higher incomes = higher collected taxes. More purchases = higher collected taxes. 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror are reasons for the deficit. Nice try though. wink Rose-coloured glasses, in keeping with the vision impairment theme. I'd be curious to see some figures to support such statements.

Decline in revenue due to tax cuts has had a greater impact than increased expenditure on the "War on Terror" and Katrina.

Total Real Per-Capita Revenue Growth in 22 Quarters
after the Last Business Cycle Peak

Current Business Cycle -0.4%
Average for All Previous Post-World War II Business Cycles 9.8%
1990s Business Cycle 10.7%

Badabing
This is all basic knowledge. Read the business and finance section of your newspaper. The stock market is robust along with the economy. Aside from a few far left member, the new Democratic Congress doesn't want to raise taxes. wink

xmarksthespot

Badabing
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0411/p01s02-usec.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-market08oct08,0,2627247.story?coll=la-opinion-leftrail
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-deficit12oct12,1,3781839.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060814/EDIT/608140331/1003
The US economy is growing. The deficit is from 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror and the economy is STILL strong. wink

xmarksthespot

Badabing
Originally posted by Badabing
Fact:
Increasing the tax burden on the wealthy stagnates investments and slows the economy. A vibrant economy is accomplished with investments by the people which in turn produces more jobs.

Fact:
Jimmy Carter made tax increases that brought the USA into a recession. Unemployment was at an all time high.

Fact:
Ronald Reagan's tax cuts in the 1980's brought the USA out of the recession. These tax cuts also freed capital for R & D. We have all the nice electronic gadgets today because corporations were able to explore new technologies due to investments, lower taxes and the free market economy which is based on competition.

Fact:
It's a miracle that the USA has such a robust economy today after 9/11, Katrina and with the War on Terror. The unemployment rate is below 5%. The reason is the tax cuts and a free market economy based on competition. Small businesses are also flourishing. As a business owner I know about this first hand.

Fact:
Socialism has failed everywhere. Wealth redistribution, entitlements and a large, central government is always the wrong answer. Check the economy of France. They've adopted a Socialist system and their economy is stagnant. Cuba is doing well. The former USSR collapsed.

A free and competitive open market is the best system in the World. That's the reason everybody is trying to get in the USA, a better life with great opportunity. A Socialist system with government handouts breeds nothing but complacency and apathy. I believe that the US Government does have an obligation to care for the aged, disabled and unfortunate but they should also promote self reliance as part of the Welfare System.
Maybe you should read my original post. It's about the economy and free market and not the deficit. Your argument is moot. The economy is strong despite the deficit (which has nothing to do with my original post). Even with paying for 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror, the deficit is lower than expected and the Economy is strong. Sorry, misdirection does not work on me.
wink
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060814/EDIT/608140331/1003
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-market08oct08,0,2627247.story?coll=la-opinion-leftrail
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-deficit12oct12,1,3781839.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true

xmarksthespot
Your original post is a perpetuated myth. Real wages, adjusted for inflation are falling, while corporate profits rise, only serving to increase the disparity between the wealthy and everyone else. And tax cuts haven't had any significant positive real effect on growth. Making those permanent beyond 2010 will cost $3 trillion. Funding tax cuts with a deficit is incredibly bad myopia, all you're doing is shifting the burden to future generations. Spending more than you have with no real returns is bad economics in anybody's books.

Alliance
Originally posted by Badabing
Fact:
Socialism has failed everywhere. Wealth redistribution, entitlements and a large, central government is always the wrong answer. Check the economy of France. They've adopted a Socialist system and their economy is stagnant. Cuba is doing well. The former USSR collapsed

Hello! Socialism was never achieved in the world. Communist systems failed and if you think its just because "c@pitAlzm ROXXORZ!" you're dead wrong.

I have two words for you NATIONAL DEBT. I will spend the next 50 years of my life paying Bush's crappy tax and war policy.

Badabing
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Your original post is a perpetuated myth. Real wages, adjusted for inflation are falling, while corporate profits rise, only serving to increase the disparity between the wealthy and everyone else. And tax cuts haven't had any significant positive real effect on growth. Making those permanent beyond 2010 will cost $3 trillion. Funding tax cuts with a deficit is incredibly bad myopia, all you're doing is shifting the burden to future generations. Spending more than you have with no real returns is bad economics in anybody's books.
Sorry but the facts are in my favor and trump your opinion.
Stock Market - Good
Standard of living - Good
Consumer spending - Good
GDP - Good
Scream deficit all you like but the U.S. economy is STRONG despite 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror. wink

Originally posted by Alliance
Hello! Socialism was never achieved in the world. Communist systems failed and if you think its just because "c@pitAlzm ROXXORZ!" you're dead wrong. You may want to check these sites. wink http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
If Capitalism and a Free Marker Economy are so bad then why does the USA have the highest standard of living in the World with millions of people trying to immigrate here. cool

Originally posted by Alliance
I have two words for you NATIONAL DEBT. I will spend the next 50 years of my life paying Bush's crappy tax and war policy.
That still has nothing to do with my original post about the STRONG U.S. economy. Study up on the Budget and how it works. The US population isn't taxed in proportion of the deficit. wink

Nice try guys but the U.S. economy is strong and Socialism has failed numerous times. I'll chat with you guys later. I'm a self employed Capitalist who must get sleep and help keep the wheels a turning in this vibrant U.S. economy. God Bless. smile

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Badabing
This is all basic knowledge.

I find it hard to believe that you could boil higer wages down to higer income taxes collected. If it's all so basic, why can you not understand it?

Strangelove
Originally posted by Badabing
Nice try guys but the U.S. economy is strong and Socialism has failed numerous times. I'll chat with you guys later. I'm a self employed Capitalist who must get sleep and help keep the wheels a turning in this vibrant U.S. economy. God Bless. smile The economy is good, sure, but America is deficit spending in the billions and we're constantly borrowing money from China. That is not good.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Badabing
Sorry but the facts are in my favor and trump your opinion.
Stock Market - Good
Standard of living - Good
Consumer spending - Good
GDP - Good
Scream deficit all you like but the U.S. economy is STRONG despite 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror. wink Half of U.S. citizens have no stake in the stockmarket. The upper 20% of the population controlling 90% of the stockmarket wealth.

While productivity has risen, real wages have not. The disparity between wealthy and everyone else continues to widen. The minimum wage being the lowest in 60 years.

Consumer spending based on consumer debt.

Tax cuts do not have any considerable effect on economic growth, while affecting revenue growth.

Interest payment on national debt is among the top three sources of spending.

Your opinion that tax cuts are the be all and end all that have resulted in U.S. economic success is very much an opinion.

Darth_Erebus
Originally posted by Badabing
That's a very myopic point. It's a matter of record that the Federal Government has taken in more money due to the tax cuts than it did during the Clinton Administration. Higher incomes = higher collected taxes. More purchases = higher collected taxes. 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror are reasons for the deficit. Nice try though. wink [/QUOTE


You really have no clue do you? The people making the higher incomes are getting the biggest tax breaks. And a higher stock market doesn't necessarily mean a better economy, it means corporations are doing well with short term profits. The long term trend is real wages are stagnant. Working people, which account for the majority of consumer spending, are having a harder and harder time of it. Another indicator, one which should have everyone worried, is the housing market. Most markets in the US are now in a freefall because of all the "creative" financing of the last few years. Forclosures are up at an alarming rate. What do you think is going to happen when financial institutions can't recoup their losses? It's all going to come crashing down, just wait and see.

Darth_Erebus
Originally posted by Badabing


Obviously, neither do logic and reason.

PVS
smile

wink

big grin

wink

wink

cool, now i contributed to the debate

Soleran
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I find it hard to believe that you could boil higer wages down to higer income taxes collected. If it's all so basic, why can you not understand it?

He mentions more then income tax's collected.

Badabing
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Half of U.S. citizens have no stake in the stockmarket. The upper 20% of the population controlling 90% of the stockmarket wealth.

While productivity has risen, real wages have not. The disparity between wealthy and everyone else continues to widen. The minimum wage being the lowest in 60 years.

Consumer spending based on consumer debt.

Tax cuts do not have any considerable effect on economic growth, while affecting revenue growth.

Interest payment on national debt is among the top three sources of spending.

Your opinion that tax cuts are the be all and end all that have resulted in U.S. economic success is very much an opinion. No, the tax cuts helped create and economic evironment for growth. It's a matter of fact that the economy is growing and doing well. If you were only IN the USA to witness things first hand. wink Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Originally posted by Badabing
That's a very myopic point. It's a matter of record that the Federal Government has taken in more money due to the tax cuts than it did during the Clinton Administration. Higher incomes = higher collected taxes. More purchases = higher collected taxes. 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror are reasons for the deficit. Nice try though. wink No, I have a very good clue. "It's all going to come crashing down, just wait and see" is your opinion and has nothing to do with the fact that the US economy is growing and vibrant. Your post is nothing but speculation. The fact remains that the economy is doing well despite the effects of 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror. The tax breaks open up capital for investers that promotes business growth. This, in turn, filters down and creates prosperity for all.Originally posted by Darth_Erebus
Obviously, neither do logic and reason.
Fact and not opinion is my point. wink

FeceMan
See, I don't like paying taxes. Therefore, cut taxes.

I also don't like national debt. Therefore, raise taxes.

(Damn.)

Strangelove
Originally posted by FeceMan
See, I don't like paying taxes. Therefore, cut taxes.

I also don't like national debt. Therefore, raise taxes.

(Damn.) Fece just summarized the entire debate over taxes. no expression

Damn

Soleran
Originally posted by FeceMan
See, I don't like paying taxes. Therefore, cut taxes.

I also don't like national debt. Therefore, raise taxes.

(Damn.)


And the magical third option people tend to overlook, lets cut costs at the Govt level.

Of course we can just pour more money at the problem and allow gross overspending.

Häzel
I think Democrats and Republicans are too wrapped up in wanting to be right and wanting to have power that they don't realize that the best solutions to todays problems are a compromise between their views.

Like the War on Terror. We can't just pull all our men out and let them have a civil war for the next ten years, but I don't think we need to become any more involved there than we need to be.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Badabing
No, the tax cuts helped create and economic evironment for growth. It's a matter of fact that the economy is growing and doing well. If you were only IN the USA to witness things first hand. wink Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy. The U.S. recovery from the 2001-2002 recession that never was, has been worse than any other recovery in a business cycle. Other than your own personal incredulity and a few articles in U.S. dailies you've given absolutely nothing to show that these tax cuts have had any significant effect on growth, because they haven't.
http://www.cbpp.org/3-8-06tax-f1.jpg

Badabing
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy. The U.S. recovery from the 2001-2002 recession that never was, has been worse than any other recovery in a business cycle. Other than your own personal incredulity and a few articles in U.S. dailies you've given absolutely nothing to show that these tax cuts have had any significant effect on growth, because they haven't.
http://www.cbpp.org/3-8-06tax-f1.jpg
Hmm, even from the BBC (which is no US fan)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5016526.stm
Wow, right after Katrina.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/gdp/2005-10-28-gdp-q3_x.htm
New jobs added.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2006-04-07-march-employment_x.htm
Deficit lower than expected.
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060814/EDIT/608140331/1003
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-deficit12oct12,1,3781839.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true
More about the economy from the Liberal LA Times.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-ed-market08oct08,0,2627247.story?coll=la-opinion-leftrail
Not only more jobs but better jobs.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0411/p01s02-usec.html

Hey, do you get extra credit for your charts and graphs. wink

xmarksthespot
Four of those are the same four you keep posting over and over again. no expression Well done for finding three more news stories. Superficial and as you so eloquently put earlier, myopic.

Economic projections based on CBO and OMB, and historical economic analysis shows no significant effect of tax cuts on growth.

Badabing
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Four of those are the same four you keep posting over and over again. no expression Well done for finding three more news stories.

Economic projections based on CBO and OMB, and historical economic analysis shows no significant effect of tax cuts on growth.
I figured you didn't read them the first time and they fit in with my post. wink

Here's one from the Far Left New York Times.
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20031101-101810-9871r.htm

A couple points. I said the economy is strong despite the setbacks of 9/11, Katrina and the War on Terror which is a Miracle in itself. The Stock Market, GDP and unemployment rate are all solid. After two disasters, war in Afghanistan, uncertainty with the War on Terror and war in Iraq, the USA economy has shown remarkable resiliency. I'll see you GDFers tomorrow. God Bless. cool

PS - I forgot to post a blurb about the original thread topic. embarrasment
I believe that the Democrats have a chance to shine and show what their party can bring to the table. I hope that they make the most of this opportunity. I think they'll need to work with the Bush Administration, listen to the public and find common ground to make use of there control of Congress. I can only Pray that it happens.

xmarksthespot
And I've figured you haven't read a single thing I've posted either. So I do suppose we're even.

Far left NY Times? Notwithstanding the U.S. perspective or what is "far left" is thoroughly skewed, your link goes to "The Washington Times", a conservative leaning paper.

Attributing weakness in the U.S. economy purely to external effects, and attributing any strength to tax cuts is perhaps the most slanted of economics.

The stock market? Already addressed.

GDP growth, not significantly improved by tax cuts, as already shown.

Additionally:
Housing weakness slows economy

by EPI economist L. Josh Bivens, Oct 27 2006

The Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) reported today that gross domestic product (GDP) in the U.S. economy grew 1.6% in the 3rd quarter of this year, down from 2.6% in the previous quarter. This is the slowest growth rate since the first quarter of 2003, and this also brings the average for the past year below 3% for the first time since 2003. A large drag on growth in this quarter came again from the weak housing sector, with residential investment falling by over 17%, subtracting 1.1% off total GDP. The housing sector and its persistent weakness continue to grow as macroeconomic concerns: both its growth rate and its share of total GDP have been in recent sharp decline (see the chart below).

The personal savings rate remained negative for the 6th consecutive quarter (-0.5%). Domestic demand growth was essentially unchanged from the previous quarter, rising to 2.1% from 2.0%. A key measure of core prices (the "market-based" deflator for personal consumption expenditures, minus food and energy) slowed in the latest quarter, rising 2.0% compared to 2.6% growth in the previous quarter.

Fast growth in consumption expenditures (especially autos) added 2.13% to growth, while government expenditures (led by state and local spending) added 0.37%. Investment and net exports (the trade balance) subtracted 0.24% and 0.58%, respectively. The trade balance's negative contribution is especially troubling, as the previous quarter's report showed a rare positive contribution from trade. Import growth outpaced export growth 7.8% to 6.5%. Given the already-existing trade deficits, exports will have to grow roughly 50% faster than imports for trade to have a positive effect on GDP growth.

In short, this report describes a weak economy. This quarter's weaknesses (the housing sector and the trade gap) don't look like they will turn around anytime soon, while its strengths (like motor vehicle output, which added 0.72% to GDP, or almost half of the total) are in notoriously volatile sectors that are unlikely to repeat their strong performance in upcoming quarters. Further, when the currently negative savings rate eventually shifts course into positive territory, this will drag on consumption growth and need to be filled in by other components of GDP.

Given the slow growth rate, the continuation of weak housing and trade performance, and the deceleration in core inflation in this report, the argument seems strong for the Federal Reserve to begin cutting interest rates in its next meeting of the open market committee. The past year's growth is well below any serious estimate of the economy's potential, and a key part of the Fed's job has to be maximizing this potential.

And employment:
http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/news/SWA06Facts-Jobs.pdf
Employment growth between 2001 to 2006 1.9%. And the demographic make-up of employment growth is towards unskilled labour.

debbiejo
http://www.funnyjunk.com/funny_pictures/685/Can+we+go+to+war+please%3F

Badabing
Damn, I forgot all about this thread. embarrasment mad

US economy is in good shape considering the situation in Iraq, War on Terror and post 9/11 and Katrina. I will say X that you make some good points but I'll stick with my original assessment.

A new post just because I havn't bothered Xmark in a while. stick out tongue

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/economy/

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