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okay so i just read the waffles thing does that mean that the only reason it was pointing to Jack was because Will wasn't there? because technically he wasn't in those two scenes

confused

no. it was pointing to Jack because at that moment he was what she wanted most.

here's my take on the compass.

1. if Ted and Terry dont agree where it points (and they dont) then us debating it seems a bit foolish.

2. it doesnt really matter where the compass is actually pointing if a character is thinking it is pointing at a certain thing (lets talk Jung, the collective unconsious, and the power of suggestive reasoning).

3. The compass was, in some respects, a plot device used for the sake of clarifying certain actions because T and T are so adamant about not letting their characters monologue emotionally. But apparantly we havent seen the end of it yet.

Originally posted by a-k-a-amber
okay so i just read the waffles thing does that mean that the only reason it was pointing to Jack was because Will wasn't there? because technically he wasn't in those two scenes

confused


Yes I believe so, but if Liz would had really desire that feast, meal or whatever they call Will, she wouldn't had noticed the waffle in the first place.

Originally posted by Mistypirate
Yes I believe so, but if Liz would had really desire that feast, meal or whatever they call Will, she wouldn't had noticed the waffle in the first place. see thats what i was thinking and it gets me a bit worried...

Originally posted by a-k-a-amber
see thats what i was thinking and it gets me a bit worried...

Well IMO Liz's feelings for Will are not strong enough for her to be faithful to him, and Jack is the reason for her conflict. Thats were the chaining him to the mast comes in to play. Get rid of her temptation and drown her guilt.

I've been thinking about something regarding the compass. First it pointed to the chest, then to Jack, then to the chest again. What I find most interesting is that Elizabeth THINKS it still points to Jack and her reaction to it. It means that she has been thinking about him, her defiant denial tells us that something is definitely stewing inside her, emotionally...otherwise she wouldn't react like that. She is still under the impression that it pointed to Jack when Will showed up. It doesn't matter where the compass pointed in that scene, what's interesting is that Elizabeth THINKS it does. Also it pointed to the chest, Not Will....

Now what i never understood was how did the compass turn and point to Liz sitting on the sand when it was on the sand and no one was holding it? Please someone explain!!!!

I think it was still showing what Liz wanted most since she was the last person to hold it.

The compass points to what you want IN THE WORLD. THE ENTIRE WORLD, Will can't be in outerspace.

She wanted Jack.

okay so she wants jack but she wants will too man her inner turmoil must be hard to deal with

1.) The writers don't agree on some points about the compass, true, but the general consensus is that the compass was pointing to the chest the entire beach scene.


2.) The compass is what you WANT most, but it doesn't clarify the WHY of the matter. Elizabeth could in fact be misinterperating what the compass is meaning.


3.) The Waffle Comment seems to say to me that Elizabeth wants Will (the feast) but Jack caught her eye briefly (the interesting waffle). The last bit of the comment "Does that make you a bad person?" (not the exact quote, btw), seems to indicate that yes, Elizabeth was tempted by the waffle, but the feast is probably what she wants.


4.) The compass points at what you want most in the world at that exact moment, which means that at the moment, Elizabeth wanted Jack...but as I said, that does not mean that she WANTS Jack. She may believe that is the case, because she was feeling attracted to him (who wouldn't?!), but that does not mean that she actually LOVES him.


5.) I'm not denying that J/E couldn't happen. I just find that it is unlikely to happen. It's just an opinion, but that's how it seems to me. I think W/E is much more likely to occur.


I want a Norrington/Elizabeth wedding.

Yea right, admit it. You are a WE shipper.
There's more possibilities of the dog and the monkey getting together than L/N and W/E

As a psychology major, I have to defend the point that it doesn't matter where it's really pointing nearly as much as where Liz THNKS it's pointing. If she had no feelings for him, she would shrug off the compass pointing to him and think it was pointing to the chest and Jack was just in the way. The mere fact that she thinks it's pointing to him suggests she's struggling with her feelings for him and does want him the most.
But I also have to agree that Liz doesn't love Jack...at least not yet. I think Jack's fallen to be honest. I really don't see how lust could overpower the desire for survival. The only thing that can do that is love. This doesn't mean they'll sail away in the sunset, but I think that doesn't change the fact that Jack Sparrow has finally fallen in love.
Liz isn't there yet because now she's going to be with Will for a considerable amount of time and now she can make realistic, complex comparisons. She and Will on their mission to rescue Jack, will be pirates together because my guess is they'll have to do some pretty illegal and dangerous stuff. If it's just the pirate she's attracted to, she will still choose Will because he can be a pirate if the situation calls for it. If she's attracted to the man and those feelings are developing into love, she will choose Jack.

I'm not W/E. Sorry, Misty. I am consistently N/E. I just argue W/E because they are the logical ending for the ships. *shrug*

I'm just curious, surreal, not trying to dissuade you or encourage you, why are you N/E? I'm just confused on why you think they make the best couple, better than W/E or J/E.

Originally posted by Mistypirate
Yea right, admit it. You are a WE shipper.
There's more possibilities of the dog and the monkey getting together than L/N and W/E

WHy do you say that? I can understand that there are pretty much no possibilities for a N/E ending since we know that Liz never cared for Norrington...It was an arranged marriage. But why no possible chance for W/E?

Originally posted by Pirates life fo
WHy do you say that? I can understand that there are pretty much no possibilities for a N/E ending since we know that Liz never cared for Norrington...It was an arranged marriage. But why no possible chance for W/E?

Ok look, I don't even see a chance for the J/E pairing. But there are billions of hints in DMC that would suggest otherwise. If WE end up together IMO is going to be because of Liz's loyalty towards Will.

There are a few hints yes. I just rewatched the movie and was paying particular attention to the relationships. Everything Liz does in that movie is to save WIll. Does she fall for Jack? Sure she does. Does it mean she will end up with Jack? Not at all. Does it mean that she will end up with Will? Not at all. She may realize that her true love is the sea and she wants to become a Pirate and a man at this point would just get in the way of that dream.

True enough I believe the same, I'm a J/L shipper I would be disappointed if they don't end up together. But my mind is open to other possibilities. I don't expect the movie to have a J/L ending, it would be nice for us, but I don't think its going to happen. Elizabeth had always dreamed about being a Pirate, so I totally expect this to happen. I'm just trying to let you know that I am open to other possibilities. I don't know about other J/E shippers, but this is what I believe.

i totally 100% agree with you. i am j/l shipper and yea there is a possibility they will be together but im not going all hopes on that but her ending up with will is becuz of her loyalty she doesn't want to hurt him and i have to agree with sureal on this i would rather have norrington with her then Will. In COTBP i felt bad for norrington that she chose the eunich over him but if that were jack i would think otherwise but still j/l will always be together even though they are not together lol I dont think elizabeth will ever become a man but she does love the sea but mainly becuz it means freedom no corsets or fancy anything. I think liz wants more then just bloddy Will and jack can give her that.

amen, sista
lol

What about a Liz/Rhagetti ship. Havent seen one pop up anywhere

Originally posted by Pirates life fo
There are a few hints yes. I just rewatched the movie and was paying particular attention to the relationships. Everything Liz does in that movie is to save WIll. Does she fall for Jack? Sure she does. Does it mean she will end up with Jack? Not at all. Does it mean that she will end up with Will? Not at all. She may realize that her true love is the sea and she wants to become a Pirate and a man at this point would just get in the way of that dream.

I have to agree with Pirates life. Elizabeth and Jack are both pirates, but there is a major difference between them. According to his backstory, Jack only became a pirate because he was branded a pirate. He was a victim of circumstances and subsequently what little good man he had in him was burried.

Elizabeth is very different. She will become a pirate because that is her choice--and a true pirate is a very selfish being. If you doubt me, look at a pirate like Barbossa. There's no room in that sort of life style to think consciously of others. Ted and Terry have said that of all the characters in the series, Elizabeth is the greatest pirate of them all. Though both men would bring certain positive attributes to her life style, the chances are that they'd be more of a hiderance than a help--especially if they would attempt to dominate her indominable spirit.

That's very surprising they said Liz was the greatest pirate of them all. Are they referring to the fact that she can outwit Jack, the most legendary pirate ever? Where did you hear that?
To be honest, I think the best pirate in the entire thing is Norrington. We see him at first as a decent, clever, good person and then we see how he acts under absolute pressure and struggle. He'll betray anyone to get anything for himself. He's only motive in DMC is to better himself, which is a pretty piraty motive, imo.

Liz does have a heart and does have morals, in spite of what Ted and Terry say. She doesn't always keep her emotions in check, but she looks after people and is willing to risk her life to save people. I think with a little maturing, she could be a great adventurer, not a pirate.

Originally posted by Pirates life fo
What about a Liz/Rhagetti ship. Havent seen one pop up anywhere

hahh noo eww

i want to BURN the compass i hte that damn thing it causes too much confusion!

I think the compass is a symbolic aspect in the movie, I believe it represents ones emotions and feelings. What if the compass didn't exist in the whole movie? Could you'll still tell what were their real emotions and feelings without a compass having no part in it?

The compass is more of a plot point than symbolic of something. I'm quite suspicious of using it to determine how one actually feels about a person, because there are a million and one reasons that the compass could have pointed at Jack...and it may have absolutely nothing to do with love.


To Willo--My Essay on Why James Norrington and Elizabeth Swann Make a Most Excellent Ship:

I just think they are wonderful, intriguing characters, and they would suit each other the best. They are both so frighteningly intelligent that you know that they would never run out of things to talk about. Literature, probably philosophy, theology, the sea...there are so many things they would probably be able to talk about, and just imagining those conversations makes me glow.


Both of them are accustomed to an easier life (I still find it difficult to believe that Elizabeth would be really, really, really happy living in a rat-infested, smelly ship with a bunch of men), though neither of them are necessarily happy with everything that society expects of them. (We see a bit of this reluctance in Norrington at the end of CotBP.)


They both have a good heart (though at times it may seem hidden, even from them!), they both have a fantastic wit, they fight to protect what they love, and the most shallow reason of all...they look really nice together.


Out of all the characters, this pairing just makes me the happiest, and I'm so sad that they never really get to explore that side of their relationship. So many missed opportunities in DMC...

Originally posted by Surreal_44
The compass is more of a plot point than symbolic of something. I'm quite suspicious of using it to determine how one actually feels about a person, because there are a million and one reasons that the compass could have pointed at Jack...and it may have absolutely nothing to do with love.


]

and wat are those reasons?! im very curious..

and y cant it not show who someone loves...when u love someone you wnat them as ur own...therefore you wnat them and the compass shows what you wnat most so when you love a person you want them and the compass shows that...its pretty simple...

im with lovelyone. damn the compass.

The compass proves nothing, which is why it shouldn't even be used as an argument. She could want Jack because Norrington made her think of Jack right before she looked at the compass.


Yes, I know she was thinking of Jack before that, but Norrington was the one who put the idea in her head that she maybe liked Jack more than just as a friend.


See? It may have nothing to do with what you actually want, but what you think you may want. It doesn't say it knows your innermost want, but what you want most in the world...at that one particular moment.


So it's not a reliable source for information.


I agree with Lovely and Kate...it's time to pitch that compass into the depths and forget it.

im confuzzled and now i must agree with you all....burn the compass! damn it to hell! lets forget about it...its making me get an extremely large headache...

Yea the hell with the compass, lets do as if it never existed.

"I just think they are wonderful, intriguing characters, and they would suit each other the best. They are both so frighteningly intelligent that you know that they would never run out of things to talk about. Literature, probably philosophy, theology, the sea...there are so many things they would probably be able to talk about, and just imagining those conversations makes me glow.


Both of them are accustomed to an easier life (I still find it difficult to believe that Elizabeth would be really, really, really happy living in a rat-infested, smelly ship with a bunch of men), though neither of them are necessarily happy with everything that society expects of them. (We see a bit of this reluctance in Norrington at the end of CotBP.)


They both have a good heart (though at times it may seem hidden, even from them!), they both have a fantastic wit, they fight to protect what they love, and the most shallow reason of all...they look really nice together."---------Surreal

First, thanks for posting that for my benefit. I always was wondering.
Second, I can see your passion for the E/N thing just by how you write it. Well done there.
Third, you make really great arguements. You have to understand this is how most of us feel thinking about Liz and Jack.

I do have to say, I like Norrington. I feel he's developed into a fully three-dimensional character and it did strike me as odd that he didn't try to start anything with Liz since they were technically engaged for a time. I find it hard to believe he's completely over her. To be honest, I expected some competition between him and Jack for her affections on the ship, although that would have made them both look stupid and like asses.

Maybe the true N/E relationship will be learned in AWE, whatever it is. I have serious doubts it will be romantic, but the sympathy she feels towards him and the love that may or may not exist on his part should be resolved.

Did you talk to sailorleo like I told you to? She's in love with Norrie.


Out of all the characters, this pairing just makes me the happiest, and I'm so sad that they never really get to explore that side of their relationship. So many missed opportunities in DMC...

i actually, surprisingly agree that Norrington is a great chratcer and hsould have chance with Liz. I actusally think he did do a buit of flirting on the ship and was jealous because she was so into Jack but Norrinton jsut totally ruined his chances by making her focus on her feelings for Jack. Or maybe he did that so she would be happy and he loves her so much that he would so that for her and didnt want her to be with poopy Will. and Norrie did get quite angry cwhen they were having the big saword fight between the three of them and Jack had mentioned Will stole his fiancee or watever, and thats how the two of them starting fighting...so you could stilll see his feelings for her during that

Hmm, if Norrington truly is that deeply in love with Liz, AWE should be interesting. I think he's still a good guy deep down. He's just so in love with his job and identifies himself so strongly by it, betraying the others to get it back was as important to him as trying to save a loved one.

Doesn't it bother anyone else that all the men in the universe find Liz irresistable? Why can't any normal girl in a movie have an adventure and have one guy fall for her? It only creates stupid debates when more than one guy is after her. Will/Jack/Norrie/possibly Sao Feng. This sucks. Yeah, she's awesome, but come on! We could still have fun with pairings even if they weren't real.

I agree 100%!!!!! she aint that great guys! sure she i beautiful@ but get over her...she isnt that interesting ofn a person ad she jsut breaks hearts....they need to move on, leave her alone, get real, find some that htye could actually love and have her actually love themn back!

Oh, I understand. What I also understand is that my ship won't work, and er...I have my doubts about J/E working, which is why I argue so strongly and passionately for W/E.


I don't think I would argue it that much, because I'm not a big shipping person (*remembers Harry Potter shipping chats with fear*), but a lot of the time Will is made out to be a bigotted, boring, stupid, weak man who likes to trample on Liz's rights, when he is in fact none of those things.


Well, he might be a bit bigotted against pirates, but eh...they're pirates. It's like saying it's wrong to not love home invaders.

Lol, Harry Potter shipping. Been there, done that, sparked some controversy. Nobody liked my HP ideas.

Will....sigh. The Jan Brady of the series. I don't find him bigotted, boring, or stupid. He may seem that way at times because he's next to Jack, and because in the first movie, he's out of his element. He's not used to being a pirate, but he manages to hold his own. It's a shame they had such a pretty boy as Orlando Bloom play him. Someone else might have created a completely different idea of him.

The reason I don't think Will and Liz are well matched doesn't have to do with Will being weak or stupid or trying to hold her down. He taught her to sword fight, which is pretty pro-woman's equality to me. I don't think they're well matched because of their views on pirates and their methods. Will hates pirates and you can tell it tears him up inside that he resorts to piracy to save Liz. He will do it if he has to, but he's not going to do it for the fun of it. He'd rather just go back to being a blacksmith.

Liz has always been fascinated by pirates and while she has a good heart and is a pretty noble person, she will resort to piracy at the drop of a hat, unlike Will. Will wouldn't have taken Beckett by gunpoint. We saw the difference in how they handle things by how they worked with Beckett. Will would have burned the rum on the island, I'm sure, but if Jack were a woman, he would never, ever have chained that woman to a mast, even to save others.

So I think that big a difference spells trouble for their upcoming marriage, and some differences couples just can't reconcile.

I don't think Norrington was trying to 'win' Elizabeth back. He loves her still, but he was trying, I think, to get a few digs in, to make her think, and probably, try to hurt her at least a little.


I believe Ted mentioned that Norrington was driven pretty close to the emotional edge about Elizabeth's betrayal of him...and not just him, but his men as well. He probably would have gotten over the betrayal of himself, but the fact that Elizabeth's actions indirectly led to the deaths of his men grated on him.


Then of course he lost his men in a hurricane, and that was pretty much the final shove.


He was three-dimensional in the first film, just no one really paid attention because they had Jack Sparrow and Will Turner to focus on. I loved Norrington the first moment he stepped onto the screen.

I didn't mean that he was flat in the first movie. He just wasn't given a lot of development or screen time. I thought he was fantastic in the last scene. What I meant to say was that DMC really expanded him and fleshed him out a little more, show us his villainous side.

Actually, they showed us everyone's villainous side.


Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (Where Everyone Goes a Little Evil)

And Jack and Liz are suitably matched because they manipulate others so well?


You could take those things that make Will and Elizabeth so different and point out how in the end, they balance each other out, while Jack and Elizabeth are so similar they would drive each other mad in about a week.

No offence but how can you feel so strongly abot WE and not JE when Jack and Liz and the hottest kiss in history and then Liz hardly acknwledges Will afterwards. If they have j=such a great love then why did she kiss Jaclk? she could have done somehitng else, and why did she enjoy it so much? sure he could just be a great kisser but she still didnt have to kiss him. and she doenst even tell the man she is gonna marry or WAS gonna marry...u call that trust...i mean marriage is all based on trust and love...they have hardly any of that...sure theryve known each other forever but they have nothing in common and dontnhave a romantic connection

Well, I could debate the whole kiss, but it never sinks in anyway, so I won't. I'll just ask this:


Which is more of an issue of trust? Shackling a man to his death, or kissing someone other than your fiance?


I don't even care about the why's of the matter; which one do you think is more of a problem in a relationship?

umm....i wont answer that

Oh come on. Why not?

I think Liz would have kissed Jack in movie 1 if she had to (terry and ted kinda suggest that in the commentary)..when she thinks Will is not watching she doesn't seem to care

and I would say that the actual shakling a man to his death is the biggest issue of trust when it comes to W/E not the actual kiss itself.

and I'm not saying this is an issue of trust because its morally wrong to do this to a man.

so that guilt she's feeling has nothing to do with that IMO..the guilt is for killing someone she may indeed love..It reveals to her that she uses jack's good nature against him..and I dont think she can bare to think about that because if there was one thing she could ever possibly love about Jack Sparrow. Its his honest nature.

She has just killed Jack and everyone is talking about how much of an honest good man Jack Sparrow is, and how the world is less bright because he (the good man) is now gone. In that last scene and its hitting her like a ton of bricks i think

..Jack the honest man is what makes her world bright IMO..hence the fact we get that huge halo of light burst through once he comes back on the pearl and its from her PoV..the honest man won through and it made her feelings escalate (not saying its love though)

Interesting thought, but I dunno. It's sort of a toss up on how Liz could get either man to trust her again.


Maybe that's what TnT meant when they said that the choice wouldn't be entirely up to Elizabeth; it's very possible that one or both of the men reject her in the movie. Woot, that would be fun.

lol I hope so..she's gettin on my nerves a little but as a character lately. I've been openly swearing about her on the board and Will too..which I feel bad about now..because i like them both really..deep down...kinda

but if there is any visible joint choice made in DMC..it would kinda be the one at the end where Will sees how important this appears to be to Elizabeth..that Jack the good man is gone from her life..and he kinda lets her follow what "appears" to be her heart because he loves her enough and he also loves his father and is now tied to him...in a way (imagining we dont know anything about AWE)


You know what. By the end of this I really dont want any shippers to be unhappy.

I dont want W/E shippers to feel bad and upset, or J/E shippers to feel bad and upset

I just get the feeling that no matter how T&T write this..its gonna end up tragic for the passionate supporters of W/E or J/E..or N/E

OR it may be an unspoken choice between J/E on the pearl..he lets her go to be with Will who he thinks is more important to her..

I suspect that it will be Jack stepping back in AWE as well. There are people who are made for each other, and then there are people you are attracted to...I have a feeling J/E fall into that latter category, whereas W/E are meant to be together. It's just that feeling I have, and I could be wrong.


What I want to see is that Jack realizes that he's a good man, but that he doesn't need anyone to tell him that he is. Self-acceptance and all that good stuff.


My brain is mush. How can I explain this? It's not that I think J/E are bad together, I just don't think they are....that they are 'right' for each other, even with all their similarities.


Too tired to post anything else on this now. Maybe later I'll get around to it.

"What I want to see is that Jack realizes that he's a good man, but that he doesn't need anyone to tell him that he is. Self-acceptance and all that good stuff." ------surreal

TOTALLY AGREE



"My brain is mush. How can I explain this? It's not that I think J/E are bad together, I just don't think they are....that they are 'right' for each other, even with all their similarities. " ------surreal

TOTALLY DONT AGREE!

Are you disagreeing about my brain being mush or J/E not being right together?

i just have to agree with whoever decided Elizabeth has some issues to sort out.

i dont hate her--- but let's face it, she's worked herself into a little corner and she's going to have to pull some really heroic and noble and selfless actions out of her pocket to bring her character back to a place of likeability... and back to a place where it WOULD be a satisfying ending for her to end up living happily ever after with any of the man choices.

I can undersand where you are coming from. To be honest I cant really say anything that suggests W/E are wrong for eachother..I can only guess where things might head because of development. the one thing that suggests where the couple can go wrong is following what will ultimately be most important to them by the end of it all

With Jack. I think its something that Elizbaeth doesnt quite know how to handle yet. She knows there are feelings for him but she's just not sure what the heck to do when it comes to Jack it seems. She cares for him and not just on a lust level of a friendhip level.

I think Jack is rather ahead of her in terms of understanding her...They are eachothers shape-shifters me thinks

having said that..I cant see anything that screams W/E should be together either

It's Norrington, I'm telling you...the story comes full circle, the men fight over the heart...Norrington will be the one to end up with her.


Maybe.


Probably not. *sighs* But I could make it work if I tried hard enough. *ggg* Maybe I'll just argue for Norribeth from now on.