Respect Anakin Skywalker

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Dessel
Just treat this as a normal respect thread, but I for one would like to know if he does anything at all spectacular with the force, because he is the fricken chosen one, and I so far haven't seen anything spectacular from him.

Null ARC Avis
he masturbated while killing battle droids... sad

Dessel
Please either contribute or don't post.

Rampant ox
He managed to take out Dooku - one of the orders greatest swordsman. This was with aparent ease and while he was holding back a great deal of power. He also managed to do it in less than a minute.

Load of bullsh*t if I do say so myself but ahh well. Cant argue with GL's twisted logic.

Advent
To answer the title of this thread: No.

As for your question as to whether or not Anakin has displayed anything truly impressive with the Force, the answer - from what I know - is: "not too much". The only thing that would come to mind is him collapsing the ceiling of a hall that had the description of being pretty voluminous by just screaming:

"But if it was a demonstration of Force ability Dooku wanted, then Anakin was still more than willing to provide it. "Dooku!" he howled. With such force and wrath that the ceiling of the vast hall began to collapse."

-- Labyrinth of Evil, Chapter 41 (?), written by James Luceno.

Of course, I'd consider this rather impressive because all he did was yell, and he did this on apparent will (as noted that he would display his power). And this was only a "demonstration" to Anakin.

Of course, he's not done anything that would rank him up with Yoda in terms of Force powers, but you'd also take into account that he's rather young (only 23 in RotS) and "restricted", you could say, by being a Jedi. Plus, he's only had 13 years of being a Jedi at the point of RotS, you know. Even though he's not displayed an immense amount of things in the Force, he's on par with the best of the era in terms of lightsaber combat.

If he had instead taken up the Darkside from a younger age, under the tutelage of Darth Sidious, I have no doubts we'd see much more impressive things as we see later on as Darth Vader.

Dessel
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.
And yeah, it's pretty impressive, although I wouldn't say that the fact that all it took to perform the action was screaming out Dooku's name limited the attack in any way, rather the opposite. To me, that was his current power maximised out with no limitations whatsoever, his pure rage manifested into an uncontrolled attack.
And reading through the passage, I'm pretty sure that the attack wasn't just simply a 'demonstration' to Anakin, it seems the writer was just being poetic.

Darth Subjekt
Well it's a lot of little things that he does that no one else can do or even tries. Like one instance from the movies, is when he jumps out of the speeder and falls a hundred or so stories and perfectly lands on Zam's speeder. I believe at that point in the commentary, GL is saying how he has no real equal as far as peers go and he kind of alienates himself by knowing he's far better than most Jedi. In the ROTS game, he topples a huge statue and then throws a large portion of it through a wall to get to another part of the temple. Being as it fell, it killed a good 6 or 7 Jedi that couldn't stop it.

Like Ox said though, I think the biggest display of power that we get to see is him completely pwning Dooku. But he was unrivaled for a reason, less by Yoda, Mace, and Sidious...although I have my own opinions about that.

Advent
Edited.

Dessel
Good point, those kind of things kinda go unnoticed but yeah, it was pretty impressive, considering he did it when he was like 18.



The ROTS game isn't canon, is it not?

Darth Subjekt
i dont know...i figured it could be as good as any source as long as it didnt contradict the movies, is that wrong? Of course when he did that, he was already on the darkside.

Dessel
Many aspects contradict the movie, such as Mace Windu dueling Anakin, Anakin stabbing Dooku instead of beheading him, Anakin knowing force lightning etc.

Advent
The game is hardly canonical, it's just a game - there's no true storyline to it. As Dessel said, it contradicts the movies. Anakin also isn't killed during the last duel on Mustafar, the opposite of the movies happens - Obi-Wan is stabbed and dies, and Darth Vader kills Sidious, IIRC.

Dessel
Technically, wouldn't that make the novelisation non canon too?

Darth Subjekt
no, i know the game as a whole isn't canon, I just meant parts that don't contradict the movie....i know all the differences between them, but we never see that much of what goes on while he's in the temple.

i was just noting a display of power, that's all. smile

Advent
Originally posted by Dessel
Technically, wouldn't that make the novelisation non canon too?

How would that make the novelization non-canon? No one dies who doesn't die in the movie (unless, perhaps, not depicted or generic characters with no relevance), and hardly any new "powers" are shown to characters that wouldn't have these things at their disposal already.

Certain things in the novelization don't fit continuity due to the direct contradiction to the movies (mainly fight scenes), however, as a whole - it's canon. The RotS game, to my knowledge, is not.

There's a big difference between a game based loosely on the movies contradicting, and a novelization contradicting in certain parts. From what I know, things in the game are not considered to have happened in continuity, in the novels they apparently do (events not shown in the movie), because the novel is accepted as canon material. If something contradicts, then that specific thing isn't right, but if there is no contradicting material it stands.

And, for the majority of the novel, there's nothing that contradicts on such a high level as the RotS game does.

Escape81
Originally posted by Advent
The game is hardly canonical, it's just a game - there's no true storyline to it. As Dessel said, it contradicts the movies. Anakin also isn't killed during the last duel on Mustafar, the opposite of the movies happens - Obi-Wan is stabbed and dies, and Darth Vader kills Sidious, IIRC.

That's true. Though I don't fancy Anakin Skywalker being the head of an evil empire. Anakin's very clever and very smart (far moreso than people give him credit for - but he's hardly a scheming mastermind).

Palpatine hands him a Sith lightsaber, Anakin takes it, twirls it, and stabs Sidious, lol. No fight. Poor Palpy. I would've been like "WTF"?

Dessel
OK guys, let's try not to go too off topic.

Darth Subjekt
ok, well i wasn't arguing that it was canon, it was more of an inquiry, being as that one such scene wasn't mentioned in the movie, but all good.

Well, Anakin pod racing at 9 was quite a feat, flying a star fighter, as cheesy as it was, and lets see, what else?.......i cant think right now, but once Vader he crushed the room and droids simply by yelling and "flexing the force" so-to-speak. He's far more powerful than he credited with, and shown as.

((The_Anomaly))
Heres a few off the top of my head:

- Manipulating Durge's Space pod with the force, throwing it into a Star killing him...I'd say thats pretty impressive considering Anakin was inside a capital ship when he did it.

- Durge also comments that Anakin is the fastest Jedi he's seen (if I can remember correctly)

- He repeatedly pwns Assaj Ventress through the clone wars

- The Ceiling collapse thing in LoE

- Most if not all the amazing piloting things he does.

Cant think of anymore right now.

Sesse
He killed several children. Not many Sith have stomach for that.

Tangible God
It's because he killed children that I have no respect for him.

Captain SEX
I aplluaded when he killed the children. What else was he going to do?

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Captain SEX
I aplluaded when he killed the children. What else was he going to do?
LOL!

He also killed all Tuskin Raiders in their settlement in Tatooine. Now that's impressive.

darthsecretus30
He killed obi in episode 4 ..that was teh sh!t ..I can care less if Obi let him ..Obi's a pussy

Advent
Obi-Wan actually deserved to die.

Janus Marius
I agree with this entirely. Anakin was morally weak and corrupt. He was selfish, unable to love Padme and his friend and mentor Obi-Wan, instead betraying them and accusing them of being untrue when the opposite was the case. He participated in wanton destruction of his kindmen and the keepers of peace in the universe, had no self restraint governing his emotions, vast powers, or even giving thought to his actions and their consequences. In short, Anakin was a spoiled, moody, reckless and deluded brat who barely had any redeeming qualities.

... Unless I was going to just rave on and on about how badass he is because he wears black, kills things, and every piece of SW literature pumped out by LFL all but verbally fellates him.



Be a morally sound person and NOT butcher innocent people when he claims to be doing everything for "the good of HIS empire". Any person who butchers helpless, innocent children who trust him and claims to have good interests is a monster, not a person worth respect. Hitler put children to death in this manner... Does he deserve a respect thread?



Yeah, because a Jedi with a glowstick beating a bunch of primitives using his Force-aided reflexes and raw anger is totally exclusive to Anakin and his badassedry.

Oh.

Except Obi-Wan could send them running with a sound.



You're obviously of below-normal intellect, so I won't reply too much on this comment other than to note it's ridiculousness.



Yes, because being a good man and a protector of the galaxy, along with being the one person who didn't give up on Anakin until the latter was trying to hack him into pieces (And even then, was trying to reason with him!), who cared for his children and wife, and who embraced him with open arms once he crossed into the afterlife...

Yes, Obi-Wan was absolutely horrible and deserved to be mowed down where he stood by his impetuous and crooked former student. I see that logic clearly.

Advent
I was kidding, but whatever you say, Janus.

Janus Marius
You'll excuse me for missing the sarcasm then, I'm sure. It wasn't obvious at all.

Advent
Well, aside from the fact Obi-Wan has literally done nothing that would actually merit death...

Edit:

Although, I will say that for such a saint, leaving an utterly defenseless Anakin to burn to near death was hardly a heavenly display of compassion. St. Kenobi even ponders upon that himself (wondering if the discompassion shown at Mustafar would rapt Darth Vader's hate and rage, further propelling him down towards the Dark side).

Regardless of if Anakin was evil or twisted by the Dark side, there really was still good in him (and there always has been, even since his transformation into Darth Vader until his subsequent death in RotJ), and this is brought out by his child, Luke, within a short amount of time - why could Obi-Wan not help him, instead of making absolutely no attempt to save him? Or, at the least, kill him quickly and swiftly. Which actually would've saved the galaxy some trouble.

Plus, it's just common decency to save someone on fire, you know. But that's not the reason I said that, just some thinking and reviewing. He's still, IMO, the epitome of a Jedi.

Janus Marius
If we ignore the whole landing on the Deathstar with horrid backup and no escape plan, of course.

Noob_Krueger
OMFG JANUS LIVES!

darthsecretus30

Noob_Krueger

Captain SEX
Originally posted by Janus Marius



Be a morally sound person and NOT butcher innocent people when he claims to be doing everything for "the good of HIS empire". Any person who butchers helpless, innocent children who trust him and claims to have good interests is a monster, not a person worth respect. Hitler put children to death in this manner... Does he deserve a respect thread?





I wasn't applauding him for his reasons. GL was showing the vast change that came over Anakin from the lightside to the darkside. The slaughtering of the younglings, was, imo, the final concrete action. Their are few things worse then killing innocent kids, really.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yeah, because a Jedi with a glowstick beating a bunch of primitives using his Force-aided reflexes and raw anger is totally exclusive to Anakin and his badassedry.

Oh.

Except Obi-Wan could send them running with a sound.
Anakin was a padawan at that point so his force knowledge was very low. But his was still good with a saber at that time.

Those Tuskin Raiders were considered to be very dangerous by locals living nearby. Mr "Lars" (husband of Shmi Skywalker) went to their settlement to rescue his wife with 35 men and only 5 returned.

Also, Obi-Wan fooled those two Tuskin Raiders in Episode 4 by making a voice of "Krayt Dragon", which scared those Raiders or else Luke was about to be pawned.

Dessel
FTR, the purpose of this thread isn't to verbally fellate Anakin or suck his penis or anything like that (as might have been indicated by the word 'respect'), a respect thread is a thing that goes down in the comic book forum where you just post general info about a character, so as to try and build up a profile for said character so people can easily access easy reliable info about said character.

Also guys, please try not to go too off-topic, I mean a little is OK, but starting a debate about whether Obi-Wan deserved to die o what not is a bit too much.

Escape81
Anakin's intentions were respectable. The methods themselves weren't.

RocasAtoll
Originally posted by Escape81
Anakin's intentions were respectable. The methods themselves weren't.

Is this in defense of him, or what?

Captain REX

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I agree with this entirely. Anakin was morally weak and corrupt. He was selfish, unable to love Padme and his friend and mentor Obi-Wan, instead betraying them and accusing them of being untrue when the opposite was the case. He participated in wanton destruction of his kindmen and the keepers of peace in the universe, had no self restraint governing his emotions, vast powers, or even giving thought to his actions and their consequences. In short, Anakin was a spoiled, moody, reckless and deluded brat who barely had any redeeming qualities.

... Unless I was going to just rave on and on about how badass he is because he wears black, kills things, and every piece of SW literature pumped out by LFL all but verbally fellates him.

You have very good points, however he struggled like no other Jedi had previously done. He wasn't trained from infancy, so he already knew what it was like to use emotions, and certain reactions to certain emotions. I think he wanted to stay true to both OB1 and Padme until Mustafar. He sees his wife come all the way out there trying to talk him down and then sees OB1 standing there on HER ship. Yea he was stupid, and not thinking clearly, so he assumed she was on OB1's and the Jedi's side. Did he more than overreact by choking his wife? Absolutely, but that's what the Darkside does to your mind. I'd say for being a Sith, he more than gave OB1 more than 1 chance to leave. He even was hesitant to comment about OB1 to Padme, saying he hope's he remains loyal to the chancellor, which to me meant, he didn't want to have to kill him...as he says later. Also, you have to admit that OB1 didn't give him the respect that he got from QGJ and the respect that QGJ gave to OB1 himself. Even during a compliment, he found some way to belittle him. "Good call, my young apprentice." Couldn't just say good job? That was evident all throughout AOTC. I'm sure with Anakin knowing emotions, built up a slight resentment towards him despite his underlying love and respect.



Originally posted by Janus Marius
Be a morally sound person and NOT butcher innocent people when he claims to be doing everything for "the good of HIS empire". Any person who butchers helpless, innocent children who trust him and claims to have good interests is a monster, not a person worth respect. Hitler put children to death in this manner... Does he deserve a respect thread?
Yea, I can't argue with that, but along with being severely blinded by the darkside and a love that he was taught was forbidden, he thought he was making the ultimate sacrifice to obtain what HE perceived as being most important. Does that deserve respect? I'd say no. But the concept of doing anything you can for love, is respectable. But i am NOT saying he gets respect for slaughtering kids.

Also, against him they were, but in general, I wouldn't call them completely helpless. I mean look what GL's son did...took out about 6 clones, he just got overwhelmed. But yes, against Anakin, they were virtually helpless.



Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yeah, because a Jedi with a glowstick beating a bunch of primitives using his Force-aided reflexes and raw anger is totally exclusive to Anakin and his badassedry.

Oh.

Except Obi-Wan could send them running with a sound.
True...i think however he meant just the fact that he did it and it was multiple opponents...although I myself wasn't too impressed by that feat.




Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes, because being a good man and a protector of the galaxy, along with being the one person who didn't give up on Anakin until the latter was trying to hack him into pieces (And even then, was trying to reason with him!), who cared for his children and wife, and who embraced him with open arms once he crossed into the afterlife...

Yes, Obi-Wan was absolutely horrible and deserved to be mowed down where he stood by his impetuous and crooked former student. I see that logic clearly.

Here's where we might disagree. He was a good man by position. Because of being a Jedi, he was hailed a good man and protector of the galaxy, which to a strong degree is true...but he most definitely had his flaws as a man and mentor. If he didn't believe that he was prepared to train someone like Anakin, then he should have waited till he was better prepared. If he, later on down the road, still trained him and ensured that he was to be trained, he still fulfilled his promise to QGJ.
There's also what i was saying earlier about his lack of respect towards Anakin, and even some possible resentment for the level of Anakin's power...I mean if Mace had it, I don't see why OB1 couldn't harbor some resentment. Also, he has a track record of lying, be it a tiny white lie or one like "from a certain point of view". He's sees fit to say what needs to be said in order to achieve his goal. He flat out LIED to Luke about his father in order to fuel Luke to want to kill him; he lied to Taun Wi (spelling?) about the nature of his visit to Kamino.

I will give him his just dues on a whole...he was doing what he thought best, but came up short sometimes, as far as Anakin was concerned, and the fact that he tried to get out of having to even go see Anakin at the end, was more than commendable. I don't think he deserved to die, but I wasn't broke up about it when it happened. By the same token though, you could say every Jedi was a good man due to being a protector of peace and harmony, but i think Mace got what he deserved, and would have been happier if Anakin was the one to kill him...i think it would have made his transition more meaningful and had more of an impact on his conscience.

That's just what I think. feel free to pick it apart though.

Janus Marius
^ This will replace all those "Frodo lives!' graffiti tags in the subways.

... And if you got that reference, you are OLD.



Okay, I can agree with that. It IS a disturbing way to let someone die. However, I see it as Obi-Wan being extremely human for a change, and not just a Jedi. He was convinced his friend was dead and buried, and that writhing mass he left on the hot spot was something else. Something evil. So he acted in shock and disgust. To be quite honest, if my best friend choked his wife, butchered all our friends and children besides, and threatened to surrender the galaxy to darkness, I wouldn't be anywhere near as nice as Obi-Wan.

And then there's the fact that GL had to explain why Vader was fekked up by Obi-Wan by creating the past after the OT, so to speak.



But you're not me.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2657/shutupbitchsy8.jpg



Yes, I didn't expect him to become dark lord of the Sith by not paying his parking tickets. But still... killing kids makes him a monster, not a respectable person. *Enter IMO disclosure here*



1. Yes, he was a padawan. However, we see capable padawans all the time. Obi-Wan as a padawan could defend against droidekas, sith lords, and a multitude of combat droids. All those easily trump some Tuskan raiders.

2. Lars likely got ambushed. In fact, I seem to recall him saying something to the effect. In any case, Jedi are supposed to be one-man armies when the need arises. Killing sand people didn't make me see him as uber; it made me think he needs a safety on that hair trigger of his.



Yes, because starting a relevant discussion is bad, but random posting about how "kewl" Anakin is in each person's opinion is MUCH better discussion. Yes, I see that clearly.



A few things on this from my POV:

1. Anakin being a few years behind the other Jedi shouldn't be the difference between sociopath and peacekeeper. Luke Skywalker was about twenty when he first received Jedi training, and HE didn't butcher kids or betray his friends.

2. Anakin was seriously deluded throughout AotC and RotS, believing that everyone was holding him back and that everyone was against him. Quite frankly, I didn't care for his whiney, "woe is me" attitude, and it does everything to make me dislike him when I see him carry on and on about how "Obi-Wan holds me back. He's jealous" when Obi-Wan is trying to keep him out of trouble.

3. My parents make Obi-Wan's rebukes look like preschool jabs in comparison. I don't exactly shed tears for poor ol' Annie in this case, sorry.



I don't see how this effects anything. Obi-Wan was "wise beyond his years" as Qui-Gon was keen to say, and he furthers his late master's wishes by taking on Anakin. No, he wasn't confident in his ability. Most teachers really aren't, especially those made young or out of circumstance.



This is what Anakin would believe, because it justifies his frustration and impatience, and fuels his ego. However, Obi-Wan genuinely loved Anakin and wanted the best for him. And Obi-Wan praised him greatly in RotS, claiming he would be greater than himself, and when Mace and Yoda had doubts about the prophecy, Obi-Wan showed that he still believed in it. I don't see jealousy at all.



Quite frankly, everyone does. Anyone who says otherwise is lying.



Obi-Wan didn't neccessarily lie to Luke; he used a figure of speech. Likewise, he allowed Taun Wi to mistake his intentions and didn't offer to correct her assumptions, because he needed to find out what was going on. I could see if Obi-Wan tricked kids into eating paste and cheated on his wife or something, but in all these cases Obi-Wan did what was best to protect people and to avoid conflict or hardships. It's also not the case that anything bad occured because of such bended truths.

Darth Subjekt
I can definitely see your POV's, and will respond in kind, however, I'll have to wait till tomorrow. Got to work both jobs tomorrow so i have to hit the sack, but i look forward to discussing this in greater detail later.

it's been awhile since we've had fresh POV's around here....good to have you back, Janus! thumb up

Dessel
It's not relevant to the topic.Originally posted by Dessel FTR, the purpose of this thread isn't to verbally fellate Anakin or suck his penis or anything like that (as might have been indicated by the word 'respect'), a respect thread is a thing that goes down in the comic book forum where you just post general info about a character, so as to try and build up a profile for said character so people can easily access easy reliable info about said character.You clearly don't, apparently.

Captain REX
I fail to see the point of this thread if we're just going to go 'Anakin is uber.'

Dessel
No no no, that's not the point, it's to post info about him so as to make a profile type thread where people can access easy info about him. What's so hard to understand about that, I've said it like 5 times, reading comprehension much?

Janus Marius
Of course! It's been a LONG time. Hit me up with that reply when you get a chance.



And my reply:

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/9946/jesusthreadsucksuz7.gif

This topic is absolutely ridiculous.



This link makes this thread pointless.



Way to talk to a moderator, noob.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/8256/buckostfuxo1.jpg

Captain REX
I was just going to say, Wookieepedia renders this thread pointless.

Janus Marius
No more than Dessel's contributions.

Captain SEX
And REX, why isn't the little sock banned yet?

Noob_Krueger
Janus, how dare you call that n00b-wannabe a 'n00b'? IM MORE N00B!! I WAS INACTIVE IN YOUR RP ON PURPOSE!!! Well, actually its because of my internet connection, but I would of!

Tangible God
I think there's a certain Noob around here who needs a hug.

Or some morphine.

Noob_Krueger
Originally posted by Tangible God
I think there's a certain Noob around here who needs a hug.

Or some morphine.

Both. I need both.

Captain REX
Because the globals are slow to act, it seems.

Dessel
Originally posted by Janus Marius
And my reply:

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/9946/jesusthreadsucksuz7.gif

This topic is absolutely ridiculous.

Now why am I not surprised that that was the best you could come up with? Real witty. thumb up



Wiki is unreliable, and for characters as big as Anakin, will miss out lots of info, info which can be added into this thread.



This coming from you? Didn't you talk in the same manner to Ush? Oh yeah, that's right, and then he made you look like a fool, and you ran away to !nvisionfree. So unlucky about that, btw.

Kadesh
why should i respct anakin, hes a punk. I respect ONLY the old anakin
sebastian shaw, That old man anakin should be respected, he > vader and he > luke

@Dessel

Originally posted by Dessel


Wiki is unreliable, and for characters as big as Anakin, will miss out lots of info, info which can be added into this thread.

Who ever said wiki is unreliable? it summarises what has happened in the EU, idk what are you talking about. I was able to read up on the contradictions on sia lan wezzs death, Still want to say its not reliable?

Dessel
Anyone can edit it, much of what is inside the articles are opinions labelled as fact, which can be misleading, and there have been many times in the past where people just write BS in the hopes of confusing some naive fans. Face it, wiki isn't 100% reliable, the random thing you mentioned doesn't change that, I'm happy that you were able to read up on some random jedi's death, more power to you, but wiki is still not 100% reliable.

Tangible God
There's so much reliable and a bit of unreliable information in Wiki that you can't possibly feel that Anakin's article is missing anything crucial.

Dessel
There's so much material focused around Anakin that there's a lot missing in his wiki articles anyway. Plus there's more to respect threads than just that, I'm talking about posting comic book scans, direct quotes from books etc., stuff that wiki doesn't provide.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Janus Marius

A few things on this from my POV:

1. Anakin being a few years behind the other Jedi shouldn't be the difference between sociopath and peacekeeper. Luke Skywalker was about twenty when he first received Jedi training, and HE didn't butcher kids or betray his friends.
True to an extent. However Luke was never a slave and despite having a rage that only a slave could feel, still go on being a selfless child. I think the respect factor, or lack there of (only in TPM and AOTC), from Ob1, affected him more than some may realize. He referred to him a "pathetic life-form" and constantly belittled him in AOTC. I know we only see a few of these on screen, but its a habit that I would assume continues during the periods that aren't on camera.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
2. Anakin was seriously deluded throughout AotC and RotS, believing that everyone was holding him back and that everyone was against him. Quite frankly, I didn't care for his whiny, "woe is me" attitude, and it does everything to make me dislike him when I see him carry on and on about how "Obi-Wan holds me back. He's jealous" when Obi-Wan is trying to keep him out of trouble.
Yea...but the fact that still remains that he was better than his so called peers, but he wasn't allowed to venture to the ends of his own abilities, without being reprimanded for it. I don't recall anyone giving mace grief for inventing the deadliest lightsaber form ever, which utilizes the darkside. Anakin in a sense was being held back, and being that OB1 was his frontline supervisor, he focused his aggressions out on him, cause at that time, he didn't have the...platform...he needed to b!tch to/at the Council, as he did in ROTS. He was whiny at time, and that was annoying, but if you could write an "A" paper, but all your classmates were writing "C" papers, and you were told you had to conform to their skill level, would that make you mad? Assuming of course, acedeimia was your life's ambition...

Originally posted by Janus Marius
3. My parents make Obi-Wan's rebukes look like preschool jabs in comparison. I don't exactly shed tears for poor ol' Annie in this case, sorry.
Again, like I said up there, there were most likely more we didn't see, and it was often pulling his card in front of people and making him look dumb in front of them. And its a PG movie, he cant exactly cuss him out on camera, lol. "Anakin, you motherf*cker!"



Originally posted by Janus Marius
I don't see how this effects anything. Obi-Wan was "wise beyond his years" as Qui-Gon was keen to say, and he furthers his late master's wishes by taking on Anakin. No, he wasn't confident in his ability. Most teachers really aren't, especially those made young or out of circumstance.
Well, despite it being a position of circumstance, it could still cause friction. What if you had to teach Einstein chemistry and physics? You go through a few courses at college, and then, oh by the way, Albert here needs some tutoring...how do you think that would make him feel, and you? You would resent the fact that you had the responsibility of teaching someone destined to be better than you, something. Correct?



Originally posted by Janus Marius
This is what Anakin would believe, because it justifies his frustration and impatience, and fuels his ego. However, Obi-Wan genuinely loved Anakin and wanted the best for him. And Obi-Wan praised him greatly in RotS, claiming he would be greater than himself, and when Mace and Yoda had doubts about the prophecy, Obi-Wan showed that he still believed in it. I don't see jealousy at all.
You're right in ROTS they were shown to be great friends. Another "what if" question...if you loved basketball and wanted nothing but to be in the NBA, and you were friends with Jordan...he's everything you would want to be in a player, now even if there's respect there, would you honestly say that you would harbor no jealousy towards him and his abilities? I just think some people are better teachers than others, and in this case, QGJ was better and would have treated Anakin better and give him more free range to explore his powers, due to actually believing he's "the one". OB1 called him "pathetic" as i stated before, and even Mace, according to GL, held resentment over Anakin's superior abilities and progress.



Originally posted by Janus Marius
Quite frankly, everyone does. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. indeed. but the "good" people do it far less and ona smaller scale.



Originally posted by Janus Marius
Obi-Wan didn't neccessarily lie to Luke; he used a figure of speech. Likewise, he allowed Taun Wi to mistake his intentions and didn't offer to correct her assumptions, because he needed to find out what was going on. I could see if Obi-Wan tricked kids into eating paste and cheated on his wife or something, but in all these cases Obi-Wan did what was best to protect people and to avoid conflict or hardships. It's also not the case that anything bad occured because of such bended truths.
Allowing someone to assume you for someone else and not correcting them in that type of situation, is lying and/or being knowingly dishonest. I know he wanted to find out things, but it was dishonestly, "a path to the darkside that is". Isn't that when Yoda said mistrust and lies are Dooku's ways and part of the darkside? Why would that not apply there? And no, I wouldn't say thats a figure of speech...a figure of speech is like; man this bag weighs a ton, when clearly it's not a ton. But saying that someone murdered your father, rather than, he just became a prick and took a new moniker, is far beyond a "certain point of view" or figure of speech.
Eating paste, lol...i laughed for like 5 minutes on that one...but anyway, you said he did it to avoid conflict, but how conflicted do you think Luke was when he learned the man he thought killed his dad, was actually his dad, and it was then his duty to kill him? Thats some hardship for your ass right there.

Captain REX
It must be mentioned that Watto wasn't exactly a harsh slave owner. ermm

Darth Subjekt
It must also be mentioned that Watto wasnt his only slave master and we saw them together maybe 5 minutes in the entire saga.

Captain REX
If they really wanted to iterate that 'Oh, Anakin's slave life is another contribution to his fall!' then they should probably have had Watto be more harsh with Anakin. Other than not being able to leave Mos Espa, his life didn't seem all that harsh.

Oh, and Dessel's been banned, everyone.

Prodigal Knight
LOL, was it due to sockiness????

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
True to an extent. However Luke was never a slave and despite having a rage that only a slave could feel, still go on being a selfless child. I think the respect factor, or lack there of (only in TPM and AOTC), from Ob1, affected him more than some may realize. He referred to him a "pathetic life-form" and constantly belittled him in AOTC. I know we only see a few of these on screen, but its a habit that I would assume continues during the periods that aren't on camera.

Urm...what ?
Luke only had lost his parents and had to grow up on some remote location being commanded around by his uncle who prevented him from doing almost anything Luke really wanted. And I'm quite sure that almost everybody is belittled in one or another way buy somebody - doesn't mean everybody turns into a murder who doesn't even stop when it comes to small children.



He really was better than all his peers ? In terms of potential, yes but he was far away from having their self-control or control about his own powers. It's damn obvious in his duel with Obi-Wan. Both try to force push eachother and aren't capable of doing so - and Anakin's potential was far above that of Obi-Wan. Still he didn't manage to defeat him because Obi-Wan was calm and controlled.

If anything this shows that despite of his vast potential, Anakin wasn't able to utilize it. Does he deserve respect for being incompetent ?



He did taunt Anakin sometimes. But that was either some rather friendly mocking or Obi-Wan's way to teach lessons. I mean...it's not as if Obi-Wan walked up to Padme to tell her that Anikin did suck when it comes to remaining calm, that he was nervous about meeting her again and stuff like that. If you have older or younger siblings I'm rather sure you do worse things to them (or they to you) on a regular basis.



Obi-Wan and jealous ? Actually the only one being jealous is Anakin. Obi-Wan is sitting in the Council and is a Jedi Master - both things that Anakin wants. People listen to Obi-Wan's opinion, nobody cares about Anakin's opinion. Obi-Wan is threatened with respect, Anakin is threatened like a child because he does lack self-control. Anakin wants to hunt Grievous - the council sends Obi-Wan. With the exception of Padme all that Anakin wants is what Obi-Wan already has and while he has the potential he doesn't realize the right way to get where he wants to be.



In Obi-Wan's opinion this is exactly what Vader did, so to say. Obi-Wan was under the impression that the man who was Luke's father didn't exist any longer. I mean...what would you do in the same situation ? Tell the 19-year-old-farm-boy who thinks his father was a hero of the Clone Wars, that his father did almost kill his mother, slaughtered children and is one of the two leading figures of a regime that terrorizes the entire Galaxy ?



That was after Luke did go through some Jedi training so he should be able to control his emotions. And remember that Yoda said he didn't suggest Vader would tell Luke the truth. Now imagine what would have happened if Obi-Wan told Luke the truth immediatly. Luke would have wanted to become a Jedi (or force user) for the sole reason to revenge his mother - hadn't Obi-Wan told this "lie", the risk of losing Luke to the Dark Side would have been much higher...

Escape81
That about sums it up... though, in all seriousness, I wouldn't accuse Anakin of being outright incompetent.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by Borbarad
Urm...what ?
Luke only had lost his parents and had to grow up on some remote location being commanded around by his uncle who prevented him from doing almost anything Luke really wanted. And I'm quite sure that almost everybody is belittled in one or another way buy somebody - doesn't mean everybody turns into a murder who doesn't even stop when it comes to small children.
Ok, Luke NEVER knew his parents, and speaking from experience, you cant miss something you never had. Also to quote 2pac, "my father died and I didn't cry, cause my anger wouldn't let me feel for a stranger." He knew of his parents and still had a steady and normal childhood. I don't think being raised by a strict uncle and aunt compares in anyway to being a slave as a child. And don't say Luke never got to do what he wanted, he just couldn't go to Toshi(spelling) Station to pick up some power converters, and join the academy. Anakin couldn't have freedom...big difference. I didn't say because he belittled, he killed kids. I said that that treatment coming from someone whose meant to be a mentor and friend doing it on every possible occasion, would build up an underlying resentment. Something that aided him in turning to the darkside.


Originally posted by Borbarad
He really was better than all his peers ? In terms of potential, yes but he was far away from having their self-control or control about his own powers. It's damn obvious in his duel with Obi-Wan. Both try to force push eachother and aren't capable of doing so - and Anakin's potential was far above that of Obi-Wan. Still he didn't manage to defeat him because Obi-Wan was calm and controlled.

If anything this shows that despite of his vast potential, Anakin wasn't able to utilize it. Does he deserve respect for being incompetent ?
Yes he was in fact better than his peers. In the AOTC commentary, GL states, "since Anakin can do things that the other Jedi cant...." during his jump from the speeder. Thats not word for word, but pretty damn close. He had control of himself, thats what allowed him to pwn Dooku. And how would that be damn obvious in his duel against OB1? Name one other knight, not master, who could contend with OB1...or Anakin for that fact. He killed Cin while choking some trick out. Yes, at the end he let his ego get the best of him, but.....he HAD to end up in the suit. And as Escape said, I would hardly call Anakin incompetent.


Originally posted by Borbarad
He did taunt Anakin sometimes. But that was either some rather friendly mocking or Obi-Wan's way to teach lessons. I mean...it's not as if Obi-Wan walked up to Padme to tell her that Anikin did suck when it comes to remaining calm, that he was nervous about meeting her again and stuff like that. If you have older or younger siblings I'm rather sure you do worse things to them (or they to you) on a regular basis.
In any professional to semi-professional setting, if you have to correct someone, or reprimand them, you do away from others as to not embarrass them or put them on the spot. I was section leader in the Army and then a manager of a RadioShack (wow that sucked.), anytime I had to get in someones ass, I made sure to do it away from the others so they don't have a bias opinion of them due to that incident. Everyone is due moments of lapse of judgement, its how you remedy the problem that dictates if that certain problem will persist. OB1, in his sub par teaching methods, did not do the right thing ever as far as that goes. Even with the lighsaber in front of the bar, you see a Jedi getting chewed out, and all of a sudden, he's a chump who doesn't deserve respect. Do you see what I'm saying? All these things are building blocks, building up to his turn.



Originally posted by Borbarad
Obi-Wan and jealous ? Actually the only one being jealous is Anakin. Obi-Wan is sitting in the Council and is a Jedi Master - both things that Anakin wants. People listen to Obi-Wan's opinion, nobody cares about Anakin's opinion. Obi-Wan is threatened with respect, Anakin is threatened like a child because he does lack self-control. Anakin wants to hunt Grievous - the council sends Obi-Wan. With the exception of Padme all that Anakin wants is what Obi-Wan already has and while he has the potential he doesn't realize the right way to get where he wants to be.
Yes Anakin wanted on the council, not because of OB1, but because thats the ultimate achievement for a Jedi, and when he was put on the council and not given the rank of master, it pissed him off, as I'm sure it would anyone. If you're that special case and are being made ultimately, an example of, how could you not take offense? And again, Anakin did things that no one else in that room could do...he wtfpwned Dooku. Yoda didn't do it, nor did Mace, and you saw what happened to OB1...twice...at that time, he was the most powerful Jedi. Not having the highest force mastery, but the most powerful. Mace was jealous, and i don't see how OB1 couldn't have any type of resentment towards him. His master took a small boy's side over his, and he had to train someone better than him, against his will. I don't see Anakin being jealous at all. I also think if Anakin volunteered to go after GG or at least accompany OB1, rather than saying that Palps wanted him to go, then I believe he would have gone. Mace just didn't like Anakin, and didn't trust palps or want him in Jedi affairs.


Originally posted by Borbarad
In Obi-Wan's opinion this is exactly what Vader did, so to say. Obi-Wan was under the impression that the man who was Luke's father didn't exist any longer. I mean...what would you do in the same situation ? Tell the 19-year-old-farm-boy who thinks his father was a hero of the Clone Wars, that his father did almost kill his mother, slaughtered children and is one of the two leading figures of a regime that terrorizes the entire Galaxy ?
Hero of the Clones Wars, huh? "No, my father didn't fight in the war, he was a pilot on a ..." So no, he didn't think he was a hero of the wars. In fact he knew nothing of him til OB1 told him. And when he asked how he died, OB1 even hesitates and looks down as if trying to think of a quick answer. And no, you don't have to go into details what he did, but after you explain the nature of the force and all that, then just say like, you're father was a good friend, but he was seduced by the darkside.


Originally posted by Borbarad
That was after Luke did go through some Jedi training so he should be able to control his emotions. And remember that Yoda said he didn't suggest Vader would tell Luke the truth. Now imagine what would have happened if Obi-Wan told Luke the truth immediatly. Luke would have wanted to become a Jedi (or force user) for the sole reason to revenge his mother - hadn't Obi-Wan told this "lie", the risk of losing Luke to the Dark Side would have been much higher...

have to disagree...why wait till he's at a very vulnerable stage, where he go down the dark path just as easy as the light side, and then let him learn and feel that the one last person he trusted, lied to him about his father and hear it coming from the epitome of evil and have his emotions going in 15 different directions? You can see he's obviously pissed, scared, maybe slightly relieved to know he does have a father alive, despite being a half of a robot. He could just as easily be like, ya know, OB1 lied to me, my father is asking me to join him...damn I cant believe he lied to me and wanted me to kill my dad....no.
And ok, the opposite question for you...what if Vader never told him and Luke kills him, then after the fact, they're like, Luke, you did us a favor, you killed your evil father, and now we can rebuild the Jedi ranks to suit our own wants and needs, thanks kid...you think that'd be cool? Or would propose they just kept on with the lie for the rest of their lives?

Kadesh
holy sh!t borbarads back! yeeess,

Council#13
Originally posted by Null ARC Avis
he masturbated while killing battle droids... sad

Wow, how'd he manage that?

kamikz
Jedi traning........... stick out tongue

Council#13
laughing out loud

Kadesh
ha ha ha ha ha! Dessel the sock got banned

Darth Subjekt
Janus....waiting on you. stick out tongue

Captain SEX
Dessel'll be back...

Captain REX
Yup! This time as Crado.

Darth Subjekt
so....why dont you ban him again? How do you even make a sock? I tried making a second acct for my cousin, but since it was a comp i logged on to before...it wouldnt let me....oh well...

Borbarad
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Ok, Luke NEVER knew his parents, and speaking from experience, you cant miss something you never had. Also to quote 2pac, "my father died and I didn't cry, cause my anger wouldn't let me feel for a stranger." He knew of his parents and still had a steady and normal childhood. I don't think being raised by a strict uncle and aunt compares in anyway to being a slave as a child. And don't say Luke never got to do what he wanted, he just couldn't go to Toshi(spelling) Station to pick up some power converters, and join the academy. Anakin couldn't have freedom...big difference. I didn't say because he belittled, he killed kids. I said that that treatment coming from someone whose meant to be a mentor and friend doing it on every possible occasion, would build up an underlying resentment. Something that aided him in turning to the darkside.

You actually see Anakin's life as slave worse than it was. I mean...what did Watto force him to do. Repair stuff ? One of Anakin's favourite hobbies. In turn, Anakin was allowed to participate in Pod races. The child wasn't really that "poor".
And Obi-Wan didn't really belittle him. He gave him commands and demanded that Anakin remained controlled. Hell...Anakin did act against Council rules in front of a third party. What should Obi-Wan have done in this case ? The same thing in their regular discussions - if you apprentice or "pupil" makes a mistake, you have to point it out and preferably not two weaks after it happened.



Did you even read the ROTS novel ? What allowed him to overcome Dooku was the exact opposite of remaining controlled - releasing his anger and fear. And I was talking about force powers and not about lightsaber skills regarding his duel with Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan was almost sorted out of the order because of his lack of potential. Anakin should have owned him bad in a force battle - but he failed because he lacked control. In that department he's completely incompetent. Hell...he managed to almost kill the woman he "loved" - how much more lack of control do you need to be displayed ?



He's a teacher and not some official who has to deal with his subordinates. Remember being in school ? If you did make an mistake, did your teacher lead you out of the room to point it out so that you wouldn't lose your face in front of others ? Come on. In some situations Obi-Wan didn't have other choices.



Imagine somebody offers you to be the CEO of Microsoft. You receive the payment, you receive all other boni - but you aren't allowed to officially represent Microsoft. Would you be disappointed ? For every other Jedi in Anakins age it would have been an honor to sit on the Council - Master or not. But not for Anakin. He simply didn't get exactly what he wanted and was pissed.



Yoda managed to force Dooku to flee twice, once while levitating somebody around. Anakin defeated Dooku because of giving into the Dark Side. Yoda doing the same, according to Dooku's own thoughts would have tooled him and destroyed Sidious in the blink of an eye. So please don't compare apples to oranges. Mace might have been able to do the job but he never got the chance.
And it's possible that Anakin would have been allowed to go after GG in that situation. The point is that he again demanded something and his superiors didn't agree. If you run into the office of your boss and demand more money, I'll be surprised if you still have your job the next day.



The point is that Obi-Wan had to lie in one or another way. Darth Vader wasn't exactly a nobody. He was known and so were his actions - at least in imperial space. Luke would have figured that out sooner or later, at least when joining the academy. So Obi-Wan had to lie about the identity of Luke's father anyway otherwise Luke would have most likely tried to search for his father and in this case he would have fallen to the Dark Side.



The point is that both Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted to keep Luke away from Vader very obviously in ESB. He shouldn't have learned the lesson before his training was completed. He did. Want to blame Obi-Wan and Yoda for this ? I think the effect would have been far worse had Luke come across this information before starting his Jedi training.



If he would have killed Vader without optaining knowledge that Vader was his father, why should somebody have told him that he was ? And even then...do you really consider that Luke would have viewed that as an mistake if he had sucessfully get rid of the guy who did try to kill (more or less) being pretty well aware of the fact that he was fighting against his son ? Very unlikely...

Gideon
Dooku never said that Yoda would annihilate Sidious in the blink of an eye. Just said he'd annihilate him.

Darth Martin
One things for sure, if Mace and Yoda turned to the Dark Side there would be a new master and apprentice.

Darth Subjekt
I'll reply more in depth tomorrow, but one thing that jumped out at me was the Dooku fight. Did you even read the ROTS Novel? It said that Anakin's mind was clear as a bell, all he had to do to defeat Dooku, was decide. And he did. So yes he was using the darkside, but was in complete control of it, no different than when Mace uses Vaapad.

The rest, i'll get to tomorrow, night all.

The Planet
In Obsession, which isn't too far from RotS, Anakin kicks a lot of ass.

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=047
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=048

Here, Anakin hurls a bunch of debris at Durge with the force, and the force is enough to momentarily take Durge out and trap him.

http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=063
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=064
http://swtimeline.ru/?comics=47&page=065

Here, Anakin puts Durge into an escape pod, and force pushes it into a sun!!!

From LoE:

To Dooku, this was nothing more than a game, Obi-Wan told himself. But if it was a demonstration of Force ability Dooku wanted, then Anakin was still more than willing to provide it. "Dooku!" he howled. With such force and wrath that the ceiling of the vast hall began to collapse. -LoE, CH41 (right at the end of the chapter).

And Anakin did this without even focusing his attack, all he did was shout out Dooku's name.

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