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Lucifer #75. Lucifer is leaving creation and entering the void. After a couple of meetings, he meets up with an aspect of his father. They talk about the past, present, and future concerning the two of them.


That aspect of the Presence reveals that although he is infinite and external, he was shaped by forces external even to himself , and that Lucifer knows what they are.


On a lesser note, it has been revealed that there was a third brother -- Gabriel, who imposed form and shape to Creation after Samael.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/112/lucifer75p34py1hd3.jpg

*Sigh*

Lucifer takes place in Vertigo making it non-canonical to the main DCU.

Originally posted by grey fox
*Sigh*

Lucifer takes place in Vertigo making it non-canonical to the main DCU.
Sandman have appeared in DC, n'uff said ...

Besides ... The God od Vertigo is sometimes refered to as the Presence.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Sandman have appeared in DC, n'uff said ...

Besides ... The God od Vertigo is sometimes refered to as the Presence.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Sandman have appeared in DC, n'uff said ...

Besides ... The God od Vertigo is sometimes refered to as the Presence.

...and ?

That could be easily chalked up as The MAIN DC's Morpheus. Like how there are technically more then one Galactus.

Originally posted by grey fox
...and ?

That could be easily chalked up as The MAIN DC's Morpheus. Like how there are technically more then one Galactus.
'could' = estimation = speculation = nope

Andyhow, Presence is not supreme in Vertigo, as for DCU, nothing is stated, but he's probobly not.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
'could' = estimation = speculation = nope

Andyhow, Presence is not supreme in Vertigo, as for DCU, nothing is stated, but he's probobly not.

"probably" = estimation = speculation = nope?

Originally posted by V for Valentine
"probably" = estimation = speculation = nope?
Well yeah, but it would be wierd if:
Presence DCU >> Presence Vertigo

Originally posted by grey fox
*Sigh*

Lucifer takes place in Vertigo making it non-canonical to the main DCU.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
'could' = estimation = speculation = nope

Andyhow, Presence is not supreme in Vertigo, as for DCU, nothing is stated, but he's probobly not.

Ok then if you want to be picky.

Sandman + Lucifer = Vertigo , Vertigo = Non Canon.

Anything that appeared is simply a anomaly or mistake.

Originally posted by grey fox
Ok then if you want to be picky.

Sandman + Lucifer = Vertigo , Vertigo = Non Canon.

Anything that appeared is simply a anomaly or mistake.
So GEB, Lucifer, Michael, Yawhew, Elanie ect. are all non canon and loses by default in any battles in the versus forum, because their feat and statements don't count?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So GEB, Lucifer, Michael, Yawhew, Elanie ect. are all non canon and loses by default in any battles in the versus forum, because their feat and statements don't count?

Nope.

But any feats or statements they've made within a MAINSTREAM Dc comic is null and void.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Lucifer #75. Lucifer is leaving creation and entering the void. After a couple of meetings, he meets up with an aspect of his father. They talk about the past, present, and future concerning the two of them.


That aspect of the Presence reveals that although he is infinite and external, he was shaped by forces external even to himself , and that Lucifer knows what they are.


On a lesser note, it has been revealed that there was a third brother -- Gabriel, who imposed form and shape to Creation after Samael.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/112/lucifer75p34py1hd3.jpg

Wait...

So the prescence isn't god in the DC Universe?

Originally posted by Grimm22
Wait...

So the prescence isn't god in the DC Universe?
Well he is God, but not Supreme, at least not in Vertigo ...

The Blue brother (pre-retcon) however was stated to be the supreme being in all of DC just like the Red brother (pre-retcon) was stated to be supreme in all of Marvel.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers2.jpg

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Well he is God, but not Supreme, at least not in Vertigo ...

The Blue brother (pre-retcon) however was stated to be the supreme being in all of DC just like the Red brother (pre-retcon) was stated to be supreme in all of Marvel.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers2.jpg

supreme?



http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/9986/brothersls7.th.jpg

and there have been a few xovers between dcu and vertigo though nowadays it is a bit of a grey area whether vertigo is canon to the dcu. hypertime is/was suppose to connect ALL of dc (including elseworlds) but nowadays it's hard to say for certain.

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5679/1ma8.jpg

Originally posted by juggernaut66666

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5679/1ma8.jpg
Supreme to everything in his creation ...

Originally posted by leonidas
supreme?



http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/9986/brothersls7.th.jpg

and there have been a few xovers between dcu and vertigo though nowadays it is a bit of a grey area whether vertigo is canon to the dcu. hypertime is/was suppose to connect ALL of dc (including elseworlds) but nowadays it's hard to say for certain.
That is why I said pre-retcon Amalgam Brothers ...
You posted their retcon ...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Supreme to everything in his creation ...
Can you read???? It says "in creation" not in his creation, btw that vertigo stuff is not cannon so let it flow.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Can you read???? It says "in creation" not in his creation, btw that vertigo stuff is not cannon so let it flow.
It didn't even say in his creation ...
Acording to that he's a part of the creation, he's just supreme in it.
There's probobly something nice beyond the creation don't you think?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
It didn't even say in his creation ...
Acording to that he's a part of the creation, he's just supreme in it.
There's probobly something nice beyond the creation don't you think?

Surpasses everything and everyone in creation.

Originally posted by Ichigo66666
Surpasses everything and everyone in creation.
Let me refrase that ... In who's/what's creation? -- And what's beyond the creation?

I'm so confused here

So god in the DCU is just a big red mech guy or somthing?!?

Originally posted by grey fox
*Sigh*

Lucifer takes place in Vertigo making it non-canonical to the main DCU.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/5679/1ma8.jpg
bnone

Originally posted by Grimm22
I'm so confused here

So god in the DCU is just a big red mech guy or somthing?!?

Pre retcon, yes.

Same as the God of Marvel.

Originally posted by Grimm22
I'm so confused here

So god in the DCU is just a big red mech guy or somthing?!?
Don't you like the idea of that God of respective continuity looks like transformers?

Originally posted by Soljer
Pre retcon, yes.

Same as the God of Marvel.
Oh yeah, forgot to mention that.

And then we have the Supreme being of DC merged with the Supreme being of Marvel
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers3.jpg

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
That is why I said pre-retcon Amalgam Brothers ...
You posted their retcon ... You do realize that your using a non-canon comic to try and prove your point?

Well, I guess that is what you made this thread as too.

Originally posted by bigbran
You do realize that your using a non-canon comic to try and prove your point?

Well, I guess that is what you made this thread as too.
I am not fully aware of that if Vertigo is a part of the DCU mainstrem.

However it is extremely hard to say. There has been times when one 'bled' through the other (DC - Vertigo) . I can name quite a few.

However, during Infinite Crisis, Johns wanted the Endless and VERTIGO magicks involved, including Constantine most notably. That was nixed, all he could make do was have Daniel Hall make a small cameo to invite Hector and Lyta Hall into the Dreaming.

sampunch

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
I am not fully aware of that if Vertigo is a part of the DCU mainstrem.

However it is extremely hard to say. There has been times when one 'bled' through the other (DC - Vertigo) . I can name quite a few.
The God in Vertigo is the same god who is not limitless.
Hell Lucifer, I'm pretty sure, fought two beings that had most of Yaw's power.
Also, when Micheal is in DC, his role isn't the same as in Vertigo.
What are you really trying to prove here anyway?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
And then we have the Supreme being of DC merged with the Supreme being of Marvel
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/brothers3.jpg

......

This is so ****ing stupid

Originally posted by Grimm22
......

This is so ****ing stupid
Don't worry they're retconned now ...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
That is why I said pre-retcon Amalgam Brothers ...
You posted their retcon ...

oops. 'pologies. s'what i get for just checking the scan . . .

i didn't even know they WERE retconned, but the canonical nature of that particular issue is something of a controversy from i can gather.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Lucifer #75. Lucifer is leaving creation and entering the void. After a couple of meetings, he meets up with an aspect of his father. They talk about the past, present, and future concerning the two of them.


That aspect of the Presence reveals that although he is infinite and external, he was shaped by forces external even to himself , and that Lucifer knows what they are.


On a lesser note, it has been revealed that there was a third brother -- Gabriel, who imposed form and shape to Creation after Samael.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/112/lucifer75p34py1hd3.jpg

That is not an aspect of his father that IS his father! He is #1 in DC/Vertigo Multiverses. The Presence = YHWH.. Do you have something against DC Comics or something?? And Gabriel should not be equals with Michael or Lucifer if thats what your saying. Read more DC/Vertigo comics (along learning more about religion) before making another thread like this!

Originally posted by kevdude
That is not an aspect of his father that IS his father! He is #1 in DC/Vertigo Multiverses. The Presence = YHWH.. Do you have something against DC Comics or something??
Of course I don't have anything against DC
But Presence just said that they were beings who created him, whoms power was supreme to his.
This does not lock door's, but open a door to a even more powerful being that the Presence

Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis, n'uff said.

Originally posted by kevdude
That is not an aspect of his father that IS his father! He is #1 in DC/Vertigo Multiverses. The Presence = YHWH.. Do you have something against DC Comics or something?? And Gabriel should not be equals with Michael or Lucifer if thats what your saying. Read more DC/Vertigo comics (along learning more about religion) before making another thread like this!



Your moron, you're proving Thanos THOTU even more correct !


That was his father, but Yahweh himself admitted that although he is infinite and eternal in nature, there are forces external and beyond himself. Thus, admitting he is not All, he is not complete.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU


Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis, n'uff said.


TOO TRUE BROTHER ! TOO TRUE !


It's amazing how much religious and scientific bias goes into these forums where they do not belong.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Your moron, you're proving Thanos THOTU even more correct !
You like to ignore proof or what?

firstly he never said beings higher than him. Its a paradox. Something that created God. kinda like can an omnipotent create a rock it cannot lift thing.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
You like to ignore proof or what?


wat ?

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/112/lucifer75p34py1hd3.jpg
If something is truly infinite and eternal, how can there be something external to it?

Well the entire discussion boiled down to if God was truly being honest to Lucifer about everything! God asked him to rejoin him and Luci said no still wondering if it was a part of the great plan. In the end Lucifer stayed true to what he thinks is right and they both went there own way in the void.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Lucifer #75. Lucifer is leaving creation and entering the void. After a couple of meetings, he meets up with an aspect of his father. They talk about the past, present, and future concerning the two of them.


That aspect of the Presence reveals that although he is infinite and external, he was shaped by forces external even to himself , and that Lucifer knows what they are.

On a lesser note, it has been revealed that there was a third brother -- Gabriel, who imposed form and shape to Creation after Samael.

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/112/lucifer75p34py1hd3.jpg



http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/82/lucifer27p09nc1.jpg

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5589/lucifer40p09tf5.jpg

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4864/spectreiii57p11rc8.jpg

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1662/spectreiii57p12vr3.jpg

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2634/spectreiii57p12ss1.jpg

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/7547/spectreiii57p13ve4.jpg

Presence is not Supreme.

This clearly states that the Presence is Yahweh, and the previous post states that he's not supreme.

Hello Vertigo is not canon in DCU. Even the editors of DCU have said that. It cannot be true. Cause in Lucifer's reality there is no hell but in DCU there is that alone ruins your whole theory. sure they have similarities as they are from the same company but they are not one.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
Hello Vertigo is not canon in DCU. Even the editors of DCU have said that. It cannot be true. Cause in Lucifer's reality there is no hell but in DCU there is that alone ruins your whole theory. sure they have similarities as they are from the same company but they are not one.
So why are there so many leaks between Vertigo and DC?
I mean JLA meets Dream from Vertigo ect.

Now where was it stated that it wasent canon?

Originally posted by leonidas
oops. 'pologies. s'what i get for just checking the scan . . .

i didn't even know they WERE retconned, but the canonical nature of that particular issue is something of a controversy from i can gather.

They were never rectonned..... It was an Marvel comic not an Marvel/DC comic, one cannot rectonn what one hasn't created, this would be just illogical. Those Brothers are different entities, they are not the Marvel/DC Brothers, except if you can show me the same recton in an DC Comic.

Marvel tried to rectonn the Brothers, but can they do it all by themselves or do they need DC or an Crossover for such a task? What would happen if DC would bring out an Comic in which the Spectre creates two brothers each representing, say, an Omniverse , and says something like "As I have created an golden, three faced Judge before, to pose as the Tribunal, for my entertainment, I will create two BROTHERS even more powerful then him, and enable them to rival even my superior power". What would we have then? Don't go into the details of the quote, it's not there to make sense, it just there to show what could happen if a company would try to rectonn an crossover event all by themself and the illlogic it creates. When both companies would take a different take on an Crossover we would be left with an paradoxon. The Brothers from DC vs Marvel never existed because they re not canon.

the editors of DCU said they were not one. and the fact that hell exists in DCU but not Vertigo shows that they aren't one. They are similar due to coming from the same company but they aren't the same.

Pre-Retcon Beyonder > Presence.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Pre-Retcon Beyonder > Presence. Then... Pre-Retcon Beyonder > TOAA...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/82/lucifer27p09nc1.jpg

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5589/lucifer40p09tf5.jpg

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/4864/spectreiii57p11rc8.jpg

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1662/spectreiii57p12vr3.jpg

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2634/spectreiii57p12ss1.jpg

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/7547/spectreiii57p13ve4.jpg

Presence is not Supreme.

This clearly states that the Presence is Yahweh, and the previous post states that he's not supreme.

Very nice scans, I thought everyone already knew YHWH and The Presence was the same being. He is supreme, the main thing is i've noticed reading a few things about The Source that would indicate they are 1 and the same being. The Word/Logos is God in the flesh aka Christ.

Vertigo's Yahweh and DC's Presence are not one and the same.
Yahweh left creation behind, and his name does not bind creation anymore, nor is he part of it. It was given to Elaine.
Elaine destroyed Yahweh's concepts, like heaven and hell.
Yet, those still exist in DC.

DC does not acknowledge Vertigo at all.

Even in the DC Editors panels, when someone mentions something from Vertigo, Didio cuts them short "That's Vertigo, it doesn't count."

Originally posted by Juntai
Vertigo's Yahweh and DC's Presence are not one and the same.
Yahweh left creation behind, and his name does not bind creation anymore, nor is he part of it. It was given to Elaine.
Elaine destroyed Yahweh's concepts, like heaven and hell.
Yet, those still exist in DC.

DC does not acknowledge Vertigo at all.

Even in the DC Editors panels, when someone mentions something from Vertigo, Didio cuts them short "That's Vertigo, it doesn't count."
But Vertigo's Presence (As he was refered to in those scans) isn't supreme, as he said himself.
And he had to create a couple of practice universes before being able to make Vertigo ...
Why would DC's Presence > Vertigo's Presence?

Why not?

Originally posted by Magee
Why not?
Because they have the same name ...
Now; why?

i thought the presence was yet ANOTHER aspect of god, simply the most powerful. wouldn't the full god be the voice, the presence, the word, the will, the wrath etc. combined?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Because they have the same name ...

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph

That reason is better than none, huh?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
But Vertigo's Presence (As he was refered to in those scans) isn't supreme, as he said himself.
And he had to create a couple of practice universes before being able to make Vertigo ...
Why would DC's Presence > Vertigo's Presence?

Everything I've read is yhwh = the presence so yes you are right there. But you are wrong about him HAVING to create practice universes . He NEVER had to, but did (already knowing it would work anyway) just to make sure it would work according to his great plan, understand? And yes it could be considered that some parts of Lucifer's comic could be considered canon while some of the ending parts of it not. And it must be noted that John Constantine was in Lucifer's comic, along with I believe a sight of Swamp Thing, though they very hard to see. And Thanos_THOTU is does seem you have something against DC's God or maybe just DC comics, I don't know. I'll point you in a new direction into learning more about DC's God. Look more into The Source, as they say "All roads lead to The Source". Have fun .

so what if the presance is shaped by extrenal powers all comics are thats why there comics that doesnt make the presance lower then TOAA in my opinion

There seem to be alot of weird words thrown around without anyone saying what they mean by it.

Anyone care to explain what is meant by "to retcon", "retconned" and "pre retconed"?

http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=7565263&postcount=47

Originally posted by Morridini
There seem to be alot of weird words thrown around without anyone saying what they mean by it.

Anyone care to explain what is meant by "to retcon", "retconned" and "pre retconed"?

Retcon is short for "Retroactive Continuity". It's when an author writes a story that changes the history of a previous story. For example, if Thor beat Thanos, a retcon of that story would be a later story saying that that was just a Thanos clone.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Retcon is short for "Retroactive Continuity". It's when an author writes a story that changes the history of a previous story. For example, if Thor beat Thanos, a retcon of that story would be a later story saying that that was just a Thanos clone.

lol

Wonderful analogy Mike, humourous on so many levels, sadly it will be lost on most here

-FO!!

So...what is DC's God? Does he govern over all DC: DCAU, Vertigo, mainstream, etc.? And things like Yahweh and Presence may just be aspects of it for each Creation?

And where does this leave GEB? Half of one aspect or half of the actual whole? GEB is from Vertigo...

welll may i remind everyone that acroding to the original books of magic miniseries DEATHis the only remaining enterty at the end of the universe....... thus that must mean that the presence is not supreme or else he would not be only death at the end of the universe the presence would be their too?

didnt Animal Man appear in 52 or something is 52 a vertigo or a DC book... the universe are linked.. them been dark mirrors of each other. been roughtly fused together in parts and not others surely.

thus some charcters can slip thought easier then others... look how easiler sandman books of magic, lucifer, hellbalzer black orchid and even batman can be interlinked

Originally posted by rougeredmage
welll may i remind everyone that acroding to the original books of magic miniseries DEATHis the only remaining enterty at the end of the universe....... thus that must mean that the presence is not supreme or else he would not be only death at the end of the universe the presence would be their too?

didnt Animal Man appear in 52 or something is 52 a vertigo or a DC book... the universe are linked.. them been dark mirrors of each other. been roughtly fused together in parts and not others surely.

thus some charcters can slip thought easier then others... look how easiler sandman books of magic, lucifer, hellbalzer black orchid and even batman can be interlinked

Except it's already been established in multiple series that the Presence lives outside of the universe