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SHEESH! The commentary wasn't even that bad people! Surely all of you know that you have to read what the writers say, think about and then re-read it. What were you expecting from them anyway? For them to admit that J/E was and always was there intention, that in AWE they'll have a lavish ceremony and will eventually have 4 pirate children? No, they don't admit anything like that. Nor do they give any sort of hope to W/E either for that matter. If anything they make some sly comments that hint at what is that plagues the relationship in the first place.

Here is my take on the commentary:

Most of the commentary deals with Elizabeth's actions and emotions. There's very little said about Jack, which makes me suspicious. All they in fact did confirm was that Jack cares for her more than he's willing to admit. And another thing, they did very little to confirm or clear up what the compass actually means. Which tells me that it will come into play in AWE and it will finally be explained.

But let me clarify a few of the statements that they make. First of all, the whole thing with the compass. I think what they revealed in the commentary is SOOOOOO importatant and kind of cool. First of all, they as much implied that Jack knows that the compass points to Elizabeth, and that it will always be so. Secondly, they implied that Jack knows that the compass points to the chest the entire time for Elizabeth, insinuating that Jack still cares for Elizabeth, even though there is no hope in his mind, of her ever returning those sentiments. Essentially, his love is a very unselfish, quiet and pure love. It's unwavering and steadfast, wouldn't you say? So, when you compare that kind of love to Will's love, you get a very telling picture. His love is not as steady, even though he says that it is. That is incredibly important!

Elizabeth's action in DMC are meant to be callous because I still believe that though it's not an exact parallel, the story is meant to be similar to Calypso and Davy Jones. Spoilers that I've heard on the net seem to confirm this suspicion. This doesn't mean however that Jack will rip out his heart, but I think that's part of what's going to be at the center of importance in AWE. They have to increase the dramatic tension between the two characters in AWE because so much of the tension was already resolved with the kiss in DMC.

Now, Elizabeth and the compass. My opinion is that the compass is essentially void. Forget about the compass and where it points, whether it points to the chest or not. The writers said something that is VERY interesting. They said that on the island, Elizabeth believes that she has betrayed Will. She'd done nothing much at that point to betray him, and yet that is what she believes. Interesting, isn't it? Essentially, she's projecting her emotions onto the compass, and thus misinterprets what she's seeing. The fact that she's believes herself capable of betraying Will insinuates that she doesn't trust herself with Jack, and that she kills Jack because he'll essentially always be this horrible temptation.
That says a lot about their relationship and Will. Like I've been saying, even if she was only lusting after Jack, there are some massive issues with her relationship with Will.

There are other comments that are equally as interesting. They talked about how J/E's relationship is built around challenge. They challenge each other in this game they play at outwitting one another. The kiss is yet another example of that game. The writers very clearly pointed out that her chaining him to the mast was a call back of how they first met in POTC 1. If you think about the way that the writers used call back with Jack, the scene has a very different undertone. They said that they used the why is the rum gone line to imply that Jack has Elizabeth on his mind. The moment she burned the rum was when he was first attracted to and infuriated by her. So, why can't the same be said of Elizabeth? In chaining him to the mast in a way that's similar to the way that Jack uses Elizabeth to escape in POTC 1, the writers admitting that Jack has been on her mind. The moment of their first meeting, and his using her to escape, was a moment in which Elizabeth has thought about and in which she was first attracted/infuriated with him.


Also, the commentary brings up an idea. Each of the characters has to lose the false ideal that they cling to in order to truly live. The writers have said that Jack sold his soul for the Pearl, and in doing so lost his identity. For him to get it back, he has to let go of the Pearl, aka his false ideals regarding what freedom is. In order for Will to acheive balance he has to let go of something that is essentially the equivalent of the Pearl in terms of importance in his eyes, i.e. Elizabeth. His love of her is a false ideal, and I think this will be shown in AWE. It is a love based on an illusion and not who she really is. Which brings us to Elizabeth. The end of DMC and the choice she makes is more deeply symbolic than her simply choosing Will over Jack. What she essentially did when she sent Jack to his death was attempt to murder her Pirate self. She sold her soul for a false ideal. (Will's love) and in doing so, her character cannot achieve balance.


Might I also ask you to recall what the writers have said about the resolution of the triangle. The triangle will resolve itself in such a way that we'll applaud the most correct choice. At the moment, if you also take the AWE script into consideration, who's love seems to be the most correct choice? The man who can speak the words, and go through the motions of love, or the man who loves without any hope of earning love in return?

Thank you SavvySparrow I enjoyed reading that. You made some wonderful points. I agree with you 100%

Yay!! Positivity.

I liked that! Good job! I agree!

I've been saying it for donkeys years..Jack/L:iz = Davy/Calypso..but will both characters be cold hearted towards eachother by the end of it all?

lovethemtigers has been saying it since like 3 months ago before anyone else

even if AWE is very W/E based..there will still be the underline Davy/Calypso story going on with her and Jack.

Also Savvysparrow. It was pointing to the Jack on the pearl for her apparently?

Also. I feel that AWE..the title itself sort of implies..goodbye to the old world hello to the new.

I've often thought that Jack and his pirate ways was the old world..Elizabeth is the new

with Will it's Elizabeth and the new is his father

and Elizabeth its Will but the new is Jack.

it's basically refusal of the call and first threshold...all characters have stepped over that essentail moment in the story before DMC ends..

T&T say they are not going to be using the 12 steps..well I dont really believe that..IMO they are just continuing the steps from where they left off with DMC instead of starting over again with AWE..that is why its not following the steps the traditional way..

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Also Savvysparrow. It was pointing to the Jack on the pearl for her apparently?


well, my theory is, becauseit was pointing to the chest all the time on the beach, ment that it was right next to her, and she thought that it was pointing at jack.

on the pearl, my theory is that she wants a way to save will, and jack is her way to save him.

savvysparrow:


I tend to agree with you that people need to not jump to conclusions about the commentary, but I do have to take issues with some of what you have said.





And you base this on what? The fact that Will wants to save his father as well as be with Elizabeth? That does not mean that his love for Elizabeth has changed or that his love for her is any less than it has ben before.


Right now Will is hurt, rightfully so, by Elizabeth kissing Jack. His whole life has been filled with loss and heartache, and the shift we see at the very end of the film is not merely a change from loving Elizabeth to saving his father because of the importance to him, but it is a way to buffer himself against the pain.


If he feels rejected by Elizabeth, then he's going to cling to the one thing (the only thing, I might add) that he has left in the world; his father. It has nothing to do with his love being more constant.


The only person who seems to have that issue is Elizabeth.





Isn't even feeling remotely attracted to another man somewhat of a betrayal? She flirted with Jack and might have kissed him earlier...to Elizabeth, who has many idealized visions of what the world should be (i.e. that all pirates are romantic and fun, that good people never get punished, etc. ), and in her world, I'm sure, love is supposed to be unchanging and you don't become attracted to pirates.


I don't see how her uncertainty suddenly becomes a whole slew of 'massive issues'. It means that Elizabeth is growing and learning, but it doesn't mean that her relationship with Will has problems.

Perhaps her love for Will has changed, perhaps it hasn't. I'm not debating for any particular ship; I just think that some of your interpertations are not fair or correct.





Where do you get this idea that Will has been in love with an illusion? He hasn't. What happened in DMC is not that he has never seen Elizabeth's ruthless side (he saw it many times in CotBP). I don't think he ever imagined that Elizabeth would kiss another man, let alone Jack Sparrow, but I don't see how that is an 'idealized' vision for the person you wish to marry.


I also don't think that Elizabeth sold her soul for a false ideal of love in Will. Elizabeth's ideal is that she has a moral compass and everything she does is justified, as long as it is for the greater good. Now she realizes that isn't so. Perhaps she loves Jack, perhaps she doesn't...as I said, I am not defending for any particular ship.


What I am doing is defending Will, because I'm irritated that no matter what you J/E shippers say, you can't ever say anything nice about him. If you can't defend your ship without demonizing another character, then you're either looking at your ship the wrong way or you have nothing to stand on.


Everything you have said somehow makes Will seem like a lesser, 'worse' kind of character, and it's quite annoying. Can you not come up with any arguments for your ship where you don't do that? I haven't seen one yet that doesn't make some attempt to put down Will.


So, while I agree not all things are hopeless for J/E shippers, I have to disagree with every bit of analysis that you wrote, simply because it makes Jack and Elizabeth seem rather glorified, and yet you manage to basically trash Will's character in the process. Not only that, but I think you've lost sight of who the characters are and how they work in your attempt to prove your ship. You've changed them so much that I'm not even sure we're talking about the same movie.

@surreal_44: I wrote something that doesn't really talk about Will, you can find it here: http://ladyofthesilent.livejournal.com/5500.html#cutid1

The only thing I did say is that the love Liz feels for Will seems to be remarkably platonic (and yes, that IS my opinion), so if this offends you, read at your own risk.

Whoa, I wasn't attacking Will. Nothing in what I wrote remotely attacked Will as a character. I actually really do feel sorry for him, because I don't believe he deserves his fate.

What I did attack was W/E relationship. At the moment, I believe their relationship is based on relationship of false ideals. They're two people who love what they think they see in each other. Elizabeth is very afraid of disappointing Will and vice versa. Do you not see that it's a problem? They're clearly trying to live up to each other's unrealistic expectations and end up failing in the process, or at least, Elizabeth thinks she does.

That doesn't mean that they both won't wake up, smell the coffee and see each other for what they really are, but that does have to happen for their relationship to succeed. It's not working the way it was.

Also, my ideas about Will are based on the rough draft of the AWE script. In that, he's very harsh in his judgments of her, and seems to have assumed the worst without so much as questioning her about what he saw on the Pearl. Sure, he has a right to be angry, but he doesn't seem to care to find out why it is that Elizabeth kissed Jack in the first place.

Originally posted by savvysparrow
Whoa, I wasn't attacking Will. Nothing in what I wrote remotely attacked Will as a character. I actually really do feel sorry for him, because I don't believe he deserves his fate.

What I did attack was W/E relationship. At the moment, I believe their relationship is based on relationship of false ideals. They're two people who love what they think they see in each other. Elizabeth is very afraid of disappointing Will and vice versa. Do you not see that it's a problem? They're clearly trying to live up to each other's unrealistic expectations and end up failing in the process, or at least, Elizabeth thinks she does. They even admit as much to each other in the AWE rough draft script. How can an all encompassing love in which each person loves each other despite their inherrent flaws and mistakes exist when both people are afraid of disappointing one another.

Also, the director/writers have also mentioned a quote about idealized love and also how ideals survive in a morally ambiguous world. I'm not pulling this out of thin air. I can quote those things if you'd like, but I think that would be silly and over kill.

That doesn't mean that they both won't wake up, smell the coffee and see each other for what they really are, but that does have to happen for their relationship to succeed. It's not working the way it was.

Also, my ideas about Will are based on the rough draft of the AWE script. In that, he's very harsh in his judgments of her, and seems to have assumed the worst without so much as questioning her about what he saw on the Pearl. Sure, he has a right to be angry, but he doesn't seem to care to find out why it is that Elizabeth kissed Jack in the first place.

Ha, sorry, I seriously don't know how that happened.

I again disagree. There is nothing false in their 'ideals' of each other...in fact, I don't think that they have any ideals other than that they want to be with each other.


And you do attack Will's character, simply by stating that his love is not comparable or as 'good' as Jack's. You attack Will's character by stating that Elizabeth is not important to him, or no longer as important to him. You make Will sound as if at the first sign of trouble, he just runs off or doesn't care, and that annoys me because there is absolutely no basis for your argument.


You make things work for J/E, while completely ignoring everything that is good in W/E. That absolutely drives me crazy. I could very easily make an argument for J/E that in no way would ever make Will out to be so weak-willed.


Everything you post attempts to cast a shadow of Will's character. You've made him seem inconstant, indecisive, weak, stupid, and insincere...and that was only on this page.


Will doesn't just say that he loves Elizabeth and 'go through the motions'...everything he has done has been for her. Risking your life for her? Is that simply 'going through the motions'? If that is, you have an odd way of defining what it is to love someone.


Again, except for some dreadful characterization of Will and some odd interperations of love and Jack and Elizabeth's motivation, you have nothing to base any of your arguments on a J/E ending. Nothing you said even remotely matches what TnT have said about the characters.

I could write equally as much about Will, but I chose not to at this point because the post was intended to cheer people up.

Secondly, not everything I've ever written here has bashed Will. In fact, many times I've been the voice of temperance defending Will with you, if you'll recall.

Thirdly, if you can't see that Will is not a knight in shining armor, that he has his moments where he is inconstant, indecisive and weak, then I would say that you're not willing to see the character that has been presented.

And last and certainly not least, there is no excuse for your jumping down my throat in this manner. My intentions with this post were simply to reinvigorate the emotions of the J/E ship by pointing out some subtlties that were missed in previous interpretations of the commentary which were equally balanced for a W/E perspective as well.

So, if you want to debate with me about my opinions, fine. But that wasn't my intention with this post and for you to lump me with the rest of the J/E shippers and insinuate that everything I post is to attack Will, then you're doing me a great disservice as I've come to your defense and Will's on numerous occasions.

OOMMMGGG...me thinks Johnny..."may" have slipped up on something during the special features of the DVD..his expression once he said it says it all IMO

@LovelyOne: You know, I don't thinks it's particularly polite to write things like that into the forum where everyone can read them and subsequently starts to wonder what you're talking about (and knowing perfectly well you won't tell).

Well, apart from that, maybe you could just post what Johnny said ... that would be really kind, you don't need to comment on it, just the quote and I'd be perfectly happy.

sorry I was just excited and didnt know what to say, I will comment on it..well most people know about the possible child ending..look for the captain "Jack Sparrow from head to toe" feature..and when he talks about whats on his belt..look at what Johnny says and does in that feature

I dont know why you have to be so sharp with me..I was just excited and was gonna explain it anyway.

I have to disappoint you, I never posted at KttC ...

Furthermore, I am sorry I can't watch the scene myself at the moment ... you know, there're countries where the DVD hasn't been released, yet ... but I think I know now what you're talking about (the fertility-thing?). Thanks anyway.

Oh wait sorry I didnt read the entire post..Sorry I realise now that yu wen't telling me off..

Well I wont ruin the DVD fr people here..I'll PM it to you.

Thanks a lot :-)

wow! tht was a gd post ladyofthesilent... nd Surreal_44 i havent like dissed W/E (relationship) im just givin support rly 4 J/E while doin tht i havent sed any bad things bout W/E infact i dnt think i have sed anythin at all bout them since i joined

just thought i wud let u kno

I would like to know about the dvd!

Please

Don't know if you all have seen this, but this is what Terry had to say about the dvd commentary:

I have no idea what you're talking about, re: the DVD commentary.

>> There is nothing between Jack and Elizabeth aside from a fleeting bit of lust?

I won't sit here and listen to you downgrade fleeting bits of lust! Entire wars have been fought for same.

Is that a good thing or a bad thing??? I'm guessing he's talking about helen of Troy?

Also, he may be talking about W/E having arguments over it..so again..it still feels like spanner in works

Well, it seemed like it was a reference to Helen of Troy and the power that lust can have to me. So I'm guessing we'll see the repercussions of the events of DMC in AWE.

Translation: It's not over yet. There's still a lot more to the story.

Oh Im SOOOO GLad To Hear ThaT.....IT'S NoT OVer YeT.....SouNds GooD To Me!!!

My FaiTH Has BeeN ResToRed I seriOusLy Need ThaT!!!!

you all faith was sitll in there...just took a while to realize that all of you have potential.....*sigh*

i think no matter how much we want to be positive what will happen, we will never know until the movie is released and we sit down to watch it *biting our nails the whole time* it sounds like ted and terry did an amazing job of rocking both sides of the boat, giving each hope and fear... which was their intent im sure...

yerah...i now all of us here will be freaking out the entire movie but also at the same tike we will probably be imagining all the great possibilties Jack and Liz ave together and be pointing out all the wonderful scenes they have together that will prove they will end toegther

Originally posted by savvysparrow
SHEESH! The commentary wasn't even that bad people! Surely all of you know that you have to read what the writers say, think about and then re-read it. What were you expecting from them anyway? For them to admit that J/E was and always was there intention, that in AWE they'll have a lavish ceremony and will eventually have 4 pirate children? No, they don't admit anything like that. Nor do they give any sort of hope to W/E either for that matter. If anything they make some sly comments that hint at what is that plagues the relationship in the first place.

Here is my take on the commentary:

Most of the commentary deals with Elizabeth's actions and emotions. There's very little said about Jack, which makes me suspicious. All they in fact did confirm was that Jack cares for her more than he's willing to admit. And another thing, they did very little to confirm or clear up what the compass actually means. Which tells me that it will come into play in AWE and it will finally be explained.

But let me clarify a few of the statements that they make. First of all, the whole thing with the compass. I think what they revealed in the commentary is SOOOOOO importatant and kind of cool. First of all, they as much implied that Jack knows that the compass points to Elizabeth, and that it will always be so. Secondly, they implied that Jack knows that the compass points to the chest the entire time for Elizabeth, insinuating that Jack still cares for Elizabeth, even though there is no hope in his mind, of her ever returning those sentiments. Essentially, his love is a very unselfish, quiet and pure love. It's unwavering and steadfast, wouldn't you say? So, when you compare that kind of love to Will's love, you get a very telling picture. His love is not as steady, even though he says that it is. That is incredibly important!

Elizabeth's action in DMC are meant to be callous because I still believe that though it's not an exact parallel, the story is meant to be similar to Calypso and Davy Jones. Spoilers that I've heard on the net seem to confirm this suspicion. This doesn't mean however that Jack will rip out his heart, but I think that's part of what's going to be at the center of importance in AWE. They have to increase the dramatic tension between the two characters in AWE because so much of the tension was already resolved with the kiss in DMC.

Now, Elizabeth and the compass. My opinion is that the compass is essentially void. Forget about the compass and where it points, whether it points to the chest or not. The writers said something that is VERY interesting. They said that on the island, Elizabeth believes that she has betrayed Will. She'd done nothing much at that point to betray him, and yet that is what she believes. Interesting, isn't it? Essentially, she's projecting her emotions onto the compass, and thus misinterprets what she's seeing. The fact that she's believes herself capable of betraying Will insinuates that she doesn't trust herself with Jack, and that she kills Jack because he'll essentially always be this horrible temptation.
That says a lot about their relationship and Will. Like I've been saying, even if she was only lusting after Jack, there are some massive issues with her relationship with Will.

There are other comments that are equally as interesting. They talked about how J/E's relationship is built around challenge. They challenge each other in this game they play at outwitting one another. The kiss is yet another example of that game. The writers very clearly pointed out that her chaining him to the mast was a call back of how they first met in POTC 1. If you think about the way that the writers used call back with Jack, the scene has a very different undertone. They said that they used the why is the rum gone line to imply that Jack has Elizabeth on his mind. The moment she burned the rum was when he was first attracted to and infuriated by her. So, why can't the same be said of Elizabeth? In chaining him to the mast in a way that's similar to the way that Jack uses Elizabeth to escape in POTC 1, the writers admitting that Jack has been on her mind. The moment of their first meeting, and his using her to escape, was a moment in which Elizabeth has thought about and in which she was first attracted/infuriated with him.


Also, the commentary brings up an idea. Each of the characters has to lose the false ideal that they cling to in order to truly live. The writers have said that Jack sold his soul for the Pearl, and in doing so lost his identity. For him to get it back, he has to let go of the Pearl, aka his false ideals regarding what freedom is. In order for Will to acheive balance he has to let go of something that is essentially the equivalent of the Pearl in terms of importance in his eyes, i.e. Elizabeth. His love of her is a false ideal, and I think this will be shown in AWE. It is a love based on an illusion and not who she really is. Which brings us to Elizabeth. The end of DMC and the choice she makes is more deeply symbolic than her simply choosing Will over Jack. What she essentially did when she sent Jack to his death was attempt to murder her Pirate self. She sold her soul for a false ideal. (Will's love) and in doing so, her character cannot achieve balance.


Might I also ask you to recall what the writers have said about the resolution of the triangle. The triangle will resolve itself in such a way that we'll applaud the most correct choice. At the moment, if you also take the AWE script into consideration, who's love seems to be the most correct choice? The man who can speak the words, and go through the motions of love, or the man who loves without any hope of earning love in return?


this whole post followed impecable logic, excellent references, and a very refreshing sense of perspective. awesome. thanks so much for cheering me up and enlightening me a bit.

My whole problem with this entire thread is that you defend J/E, once again, by making Will into something he isn't. That drives me crazy. I appreciate how you have defended me, but I don't really see much from you on the subject of Will...except when you try to analize him, and then you're usually far off the mark.


I don't think you purposely set out to do a bad characterization of Will, but regardless of intent, you still do it.


ladyofthesilent's post was better, simply because it focused on J/E, without bring Will into it except to mention him as a side character.


If you cannot defend your ship without attempting to ruin another character, then you have nothing to stand on. That's all I'm trying to say.


To prove to you that I can see both points of view, I'm working, as we speak, on a post that defends J/E...but it has nothing to do with Will, how he feels or what he does wrong. That's how you are supposed to defend a ship.

Based on spoilers I've heard, Jack will have a child...but does that mean it's also Elizabeth's? I don't think so.....

god only knows...as far as I know..there is only one child in this story and it belongs to Elizabeth (apparenty)..

who else's do you think it could be? Tia's?..LOL I SURE as heck dont think its Tia's

Originally posted by Surreal_44
My whole problem with this entire thread is that you defend J/E, once again, by making Will into something he isn't. That drives me crazy. I appreciate how you have defended me, but I don't really see much from you on the subject of Will...except when you try to analize him, and then you're usually far off the mark.


I don't think you purposely set out to do a bad characterization of Will, but regardless of intent, you still do it.


ladyofthesilent's post was better, simply because it focused on J/E, without bring Will into it except to mention him as a side character.


If you cannot defend your ship without attempting to ruin another character, then you have nothing to stand on. That's all I'm trying to say.


To prove to you that I can see both points of view, I'm working, as we speak, on a post that defends J/E...but it has nothing to do with Will, how he feels or what he does wrong. That's how you are supposed to defend a ship.

all of these characters are pretty much completely subjective to people's opinions. we have very few hard facts about them, so i dont think its safe to say people are mis-interpretting any characters. perhaps the third film will clear up some character questions. until then, i think people can judge what a bad characterization is.

Its up to us the audience to judge..