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With people like me and everyone else who rejects the concept of Christian-Judeo-Muslim mainstream monotheistic God, doesn't God get sick and tired of us constantly attacking, challenging, questioning, and making fun of him?

(Assuming he exists)

There are people who speak on behalf of God. Some intelligent, but some total idiots. However, these "followers" fail to carry out his defense very well, since:

1) They cannot agree on the same subjects, each denomination and religious individual disagrees when it comes to Religious Intepretation.

2) Religious people have not been that successful in convincing Athiests/Agnostics or people of other Faiths that thier God truly exists, and that thier religious reference is truly valid.


The Bible/Quran/Torah cannot speak for themselves. Those things need people to speak for them, and are nothing without the worshippers who carry out the message.


Wouldn't it be a little simpler or more effective if God just spoke to all of us HIMSELF instead of shying away behind alure, mystery, fantasy, and virtual non-existance ?


Why doesn't he just speak up for himself? Why not just PROVE religious bashers like me WRONG ?



TODAY !



God, if you exist, I challenge you to show yourself to me. I am opening my mind ! I am ready....just show me a GLIMPSE of yourself...even if it's just a little suggestion...a sign...anything that could get me to beleive in you once again.


Alright guys....you can not accuse me of being closed minded any further...I am waiting. Let's see if this works !

No, God does not "do", we "do".

God does not get sick of us, people get sick of us.

Goed does speak to people, but there is no single one-size-fits-all answer to the how. People hear it not with their ears, but in their hearts.

In every detail of the infinitely varied world, man finds his Creator. God, the owner of everything in the whole universe, introduces Himself to man through the flawless design of His creation. Everything surrounding us, the birds in flight, our beating hearts, the birth of a child or the existence of the sun in the sky, manifest the power of God and His creation. And what man must do is understand this fact.

These purposes owe their existence to the fact that everything has been created. An intelligent person notices that planning, design and wisdom exist in every detail of the infinitely varied world. This draws him to recognition of the Creator.

So you need never plead ignorance that all living beings, living or non-living, show the existence and greatness of God, look at the things around you. Strive to show appreciation in the best manner for the eternal greatness of God. For the existence of God is obvious, and ignoring it would only be the beginning of the greatest damage we could ever do to ourselves. That is simply because God is in no need of anything. He is the One Who shows His greatness in all things and in all ways.

So basically, my only option is to apply God to a situation MYSELF. To give this imaginary Character CREDIT for something he has no proven to be responsible for.

How cheap.


If he exists, he can't just tell me he does? All this mystery and alure for what? I can understand if God wants me to search for him, for the sake of meaning and for the sake of effort, but at what risk ? At risk of me ending up in Hell for not beleiving in the first place, and never finding the answer even when I search ?


That's a cop out. A TOTAL cop out !


If it is beyond God's ability to interfere with my doubt, show himself to me without me applying him to a situation, then he is either very limitted, doesn't exist, or he's just teasing us.

That's why the concept of a God that only cares about Earth in the unimaginable expanse of the universe is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So basically, my only option is to apply God to a situation MYSELF. To give this imaginary Character CREDIT for something he has no proven to be responsible for.

How cheap.


If he exists, he can't just tell me he does? All this mystery and alure for what? I can understand if God wants me to search for him, for the sake of meaning and for the sake of effort, but at what risk ? At risk of me ending up in Hell for not beleiving in the first place, and never finding the answer even when I search ?


That's a cop out. A TOTAL cop out !


If it is beyond God's ability to interfere with my doubt, show himself to me without me applying him to a situation, then he is either very limitted, doesn't exist, or he's just teasing us.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen

God, if you exist, I challenge you to show yourself to me. I am opening my mind ! I am ready....just show me a GLIMPSE of yourself...even if it's just a little suggestion...a sign...anything that could get me to beleive in you once again.


Alright guys....you can not accuse me of being closed minded any further...I am waiting. Let's see if this works !
hmm

Originally posted by Storm
hmm


What exactly are you confused about ?

I' m not confused at all. The smiley is an expression of... skepticism.

Originally posted by Strangelove
That's why the concept of a God that only cares about Earth in the unimaginable expanse of the universe is ridiculous.

Aman!

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Aman!

Amen.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Amen.

I thought mine was funnier.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Aman!

I won a staring contest with your avvy, it blinked

Originally posted by Strangelove
I won a staring contest with your avvy, it blinked

I've never been good at that.

You don't believe in God. That is what it wall amounts too. No argument no matter how well it is put together is going to be good enough. God is not accountable to us or you. God from what I can see has never accepted the challenge from a non-believer (any person that doesn't believe in him) to show himself. what i'm saying is that I don't have an answer for you. God demands faith. Faith would mean nothing if he just spoke directly to people all the time. People can argue forever about the existence of God, and whether or not he is real. But at the end of the day it's not well put together arguments that make me a christain it's the word of God that is the basis of my faith. I don't need anybody to justify that.

Originally posted by jasofisc
You don't believe in God. That is what it wall amounts too. No argument no matter how well it is put together is going to be good enough. God is not accountable to us or you. God from what I can see has never accepted the challenge from a non-believer (any person that doesn't believe in him) to show himself. what i'm saying is that I don't have an answer for you. God demands faith. Faith would mean nothing if he just spoke directly to people all the time. People can argue forever about the existence of God, and whether or not he is real. But at the end of the day it's not well put together arguments that make me a christain it's the word of God that is the basis of my faith. I don't need anybody to justify that.

I believe in God, I simple don't believe in your understanding of God. For example: God is not a "he".

yeah I understand that you don't have the same understanding as i do but what does that have to deal with my comment you quoted. as for God not being a he I kind of agree with that in that I believe that the Holy Spirit is doesn't have a gender, Jesus was born a male, and God the father is also gender less containing male and female attributes.

Originally posted by jasofisc
yeah I understand that you don't have the same understanding as i do but what does that have to deal with my comment you quoted. as for God not being a he I kind of agree with that in that I believe that the Holy Spirit is doesn't have a gender, Jesus was born a male, and God the father is also gender less containing male and female attributes.

Did you say "You don't believe in God.", or was you talking to someone else?

talking to Uzin

sorry I should have specified

Originally posted by jasofisc
talking to Uzin

OK, I thought it me.

God does speak up, aren't you listening????

If God is really who he is, why would he really need to defend himself from posts on a religion forum, anyway?

The words are every where ......

Just stop and listen, yet it maybe not what you think btw.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Words.
It is not God's duty to prove Himself to us.

Quite frankly, God is pissed. He's rather pissed, even. He's just holding His anger in check right now.

Originally posted by jasofisc
You don't believe in God. That is what it wall amounts too. No argument no matter how well it is put together is going to be good enough. God is not accountable to us or you. God from what I can see has never accepted the challenge from a non-believer (any person that doesn't believe in him) to show himself. what i'm saying is that I don't have an answer for you. God demands faith. Faith would mean nothing if he just spoke directly to people all the time. People can argue forever about the existence of God, and whether or not he is real. But at the end of the day it's not well put together arguments that make me a christain it's the word of God that is the basis of my faith. I don't need anybody to justify that.

Bah, that argument annoys me so much -

First we have the: You don't believe in God, and you never would no matter how much evidence you had.

Which is completely tosh and poppycock. Since there is all the evidence in the world of people going around believing in things they feel they are justified in believing. Things they have evidence for their belief. It is like the lamest get out of jail card:

Person One: Where is the evidence for God?
Person Two: No evidence would be ever enough for you! It is your fault you don't believe in God, it is your own pig headiness!
Person One: *looks at feet* Gee... I
Person Two: *Runs away while person one isn't looking*

If an Atheist got evidence their was a God they would believe. Because you see Atheist doesn't mean "person who knows their is a God but chooses not to believe", no it is much more "a person who sees no evidence to justify such a belief." Really Atheism can be blamed far more on God, as it is he, with every Atheist I know, that I see justification for it. For someone who loves us so much he seems rather impotent in understanding how we think. If he can't understand an Atheists mind set, then he is no God.

Second - The whole proof destroys faith. In ancient Egypt, In ancient Greece they had things known as natural gods. Gods of suns and storms and fertility. Every time they saw these things doing what they were meant to this affirmed their faith. Ra and Seth and Persephone were real and making the world go round. Did the fact these people believe they were getting proof of their gods mean they didn't have faith? No. It is interesting so much of this whole "Faith, just faith" only really took off with the monotheistic religions with their aloof God's. By distancing themselves from the natural world phenomena and claiming uncharted territories that people would struggle to explain (soul, after life, beginnings etc) they protected themselves for a time from doubt. And "proof destroys faith" was a damn good way to stop people asking questions.

Despite, in terms of definition, it is possible to have faith in a friend, and it is possible that faith can be built upon a persons evidence that that friend is deserving of that faith.



Hmmm. I imagine you mean the Bible. Your copy printed on man made paper, written by men, in a language created by man, translated by men. Preached by men. Benefiting men only if they believe it.



And let me guess - God has absolutely no responsibility for any of it. He is angry at mankind.

Out of interest - say you have a king, who is head of state and government. Now his nation goes belly up in a big way. Is he at all responsible for the things that happen in his nation (what with him being the big old pooh bah and all?)

But yes. God has no responsibility for any of the things that make him angry. Not being the grand old pooh bah and all (wait a minute...)

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And let me guess - God has absolutely no responsibility for any of it. He is angry at mankind.
Hells yeah.

Not if he's gone and stepped back, giving all the power to the people.


Pooh bear.

Originally posted by FeceMan
It is not God's duty to prove Himself to us.

. No, no it's not......and why would a god do so? . No proof is necessary only because it is already here.

Originally posted by debbiejo
No, no it's not......and why would a god do so? . No proof is necessary only because it is already here.

Proof would, by rights, be necessary if one is trying to claim something, and wants people, a lot of people, to believe those claims up to the hilt.

Now this is all highly dependant upon the concept in question. I'm not talking about some universal energy that is a part of us all, I am operating under the assumption LU is talking about the Christian God. And if that is so there are claims it's followers make:

1st - It's the one that does it.

Basic claim - it exists, created the universe, created us and all that jazz and so on. Quite big claims you'd agree.

2nd - It cares about us and pretty much demands our faith, as without it we are doomed.

Basic claim - once again it exists and that we both need it, and are dependant on it for greater things. As such we have to believe it is the one that does it and we need it and we will get what is promised when we die.

So two claims that we are asked to accept based upon faith alone and that apparently are very significant to us in the future. Thus it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for proof to support such exceptional claims.



Hmmm, well God hasn't done a good job of stepping back. From the beginning of humanity it appears he was interfering in human affairs (kicking us out of the garden, drowning the world, giving orders to leaders and the rest, sending Jesus, integrating faith in him as the prerequisite for the after life) and if going to do so again in the future - the rapture and all that jazz - or at least he did all this without leaving anything other then claims he did it.

So has he stepped back and given power to us? Or has he got his hands dirty in his creation and failed it improve it?

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Hmmm, well God hasn't done a good job of stepping back. From the beginning of humanity it appears he was interfering in human affairs (kicking us out of the garden, drowning the world, giving orders to leaders and the rest, sending Jesus, integrating faith in him as the prerequisite for the after life) and if going to do so again in the future - the rapture and all that jazz - or at least he did all this without leaving anything other then claims he did it.

So has he stepped back and given power to us? Or has he got his hands dirty in his creation and failed it improve it?
Staying with your analogy...
God stepped back, but he still offers help and advice to those who ask for it. When the world was horribly corrupt the king sent his son (the Prince of Peace if you will) to show us how to live and then the prince returned to the king. The king still retains the power to control his people, but he does not because he does not want to infringe on our free will. However, sometimes (Sodom and Gomorrah for example) people become so evil that the king says "hey, these people need to be stopped", so he removes the rapists and murderers hoping to prevent man from hitting the rock bottom. He still cares and intervenes at times without exerting control over the people.

If he doesn't give us proof only the texts from an old book, then why should he expect us all to believe in him. We have no real proof do we. How can you have faith from a book that is millions of years old.

I actually believe in him more or less but some things about it bother me.

Originally posted by FearMe
If he doesn't give us proof only the texts from an old book, then why should he expect us all to believe in him. We have no real proof do we. How can you have faith from a book that is millions of years old.

I actually believe in him more or less but some things about it bother me.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that the Bible is not millions of years old. More like a few thousand. There is more evidence of God than that, but ok.

Originally posted by Storm
I' m not confused at all. The smiley is an expression of... skepticism.

skepticism about what ?

Originally posted by jasofisc
You don't believe in God. That is what it wall amounts too. No argument no matter how well it is put together is going to be good enough. God is not accountable to us or you. God from what I can see has never accepted the challenge from a non-believer (any person that doesn't believe in him) to show himself. what i'm saying is that I don't have an answer for you. God demands faith. Faith would mean nothing if he just spoke directly to people all the time. People can argue forever about the existence of God, and whether or not he is real. But at the end of the day it's not well put together arguments that make me a christain it's the word of God that is the basis of my faith. I don't need anybody to justify that.


Not good enough for me. I will not give my life to an illusion. I refuse to take that gamble and waste my existance here on Earth that way.

I would still live my life the same either way. I do nothing to harm anybody. The most "evil" thing I've ever done was make fun of people every now and then. o0o0o0o how malicious.

If God does exist, and wants me to change my life around for him, then he needs to prove to me that he in fact, exists. If he will remain in fantasy, then I will not look for him. I already spent 18 years of my life as a Christian trying to understand and invite God into my life, with no clear answer not even once.

I am not going to waste another day beleiving if he can't even give me a damn sign of his existance.

People are sharing their interpretation or experiences with how God communicates, and you basically dismiss those views right at hand. That is not very open minded to me.

Originally posted by Storm
People are sharing their interpretation or experiences with how God communicates, and you basically dismiss those views right at hand. That is not very open minded to me.


I didn't dismiss anything. I am waiting for God to show himself. If he only shows himself through my intentional application of him onto a situation, then it doesn't mean anything.

I am basically saying that so far I am not convinced. As much as people are telling me, I doubt any one person can convince me. If God cannot convince me of his existance, himself, then I will remain a non-beleiver.

For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don' t believe, no proof is possible.

Originally posted by Storm
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don' t believe, no proof is possible.


You have said that before...

But I see it as a cop out...not on your part, but on "God's" part.


As much as I usually disagree with Xmarksthespot on many issues, he/she is right about one thing: Beleif needs to be justified if it is to be spread in the effort to convert those who do not beleive.

I can't just make myself beleive something Storm. I can say that "I beleive" 800 times If I want, that won't make it true. I am not convinced.

Keep in mind, Storm, that I was Christian for 18 years of my life. Atleast 9 of those years I beleived in God and in Christianity, VERY STRONGLY, and had very few, IF ANY, doubts in my Faith.

I look back now, and realize that I only beleived those things because: 1) I was taught to beleive it, 2) It was convienent for me to beleive it at the time.

There was never any proof for my beleif. I never had a 100% VALID reason for my Faith. So you mean to tell me that after NINE years of beleiving in God, with NO PROOF of his existance, I should start beleiving again just to make sure ?

HA! Nice try, this time I am asking for a valid reason to beleive, and if God cannot supply it, then he is either limitted or simply doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Storm
For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don' t believe, no proof is possible.
You know, that's probably the most intelligent and accurate thing that has ever been said on these forums.

Originally posted by FeceMan
You know, that's probably the most intelligent and accurate thing that has ever been said on these forums.


If so, then how do you expect a non-beleiver to truly beleive in Christ ?

Blind Faith does not equal true, sincere beleif.

Well the god of the Bible doesn't exist. That is quite easy to prove. An Universal energy force though exists, and that is quite easy to prove. Well, if you're open to it...

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Hmmm, well God hasn't done a good job of stepping back. From the beginning of humanity it appears he was interfering in human affairs (kicking us out of the garden, drowning the world, giving orders to leaders and the rest, sending Jesus, integrating faith in him as the prerequisite for the after life) and if going to do so again in the future - the rapture and all that jazz - or at least he did all this without leaving anything other then claims he did it.

So has he stepped back and given power to us? Or has he got his hands dirty in his creation and failed it improve it?
He has given power to us. In the Old Testament, God was more visibly active in the day-to-day affairs of men--not only as a protector and guide, but as proof that He existed (as the Word had not yet been spoken). He has gradually stepped back over time and given us the power over our world; we've just sort of broken it. A lot.

But that's what you guys do not get.

I am not asking you to convince me that a "superior" or "unifying" or "creation" force exists. I ALREADY beleive that.

I am asking someone to give me proof that CHRISTIAN-JUDEO-ISLAMIC God exists...ACTUALLY, I am asking that GOD HIMSELF to prove to me that he exists.

Surely, an all-powerful and all-capable God can do something so simple as to prove his mere EXISTANCE to me ! If he cannot, then he probably doesn't exist in the first place.


Is that TOO MUCH to ask of an Almighty God ? To just prove his existance ? Or am I asking too much?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Is that TOO MUCH to ask of an Almighty God ? To just prove his existance ? Or am I asking too much?
Have you seen the movie Constantine? Though much of it is fictitious and inaccurate, when Constantine is talking to the half-angel Gabriel, it reminds me of your situation. He is frustrated because, when asking Gabriel what God wants, she mentions belief--and he says he does believe.

She says that there's a difference--they do not believe; they know.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Have you seen the movie Constantine? Though much of it is fictitious and inaccurate, when Constantine is talking to the half-angel Gabriel, it reminds me of your situation. He is frustrated because, when asking Gabriel what God wants, she mentions belief--and he says he does believe.

She says that there's a difference--they do not believe; they know.

Interesting.

But knowledge and beleif are two different things. I used to beleive, but now I don't even have enough trust in Christianity to go back to it.

I don't understand why anyone is defending God's decision to remain hidden, or to speak in unclear manners that could easily be confused for schizophrenia, a dream, or other non-reality scenarios.


Do you not think it would be so much more beneficial if God made himself CLEAR and KNOWN to all people without a doubt of his existance ?

Then and only then, if people STILL disobey him, even AFTER he showed himself to us, can we truly say that that person has sinned, denied God, and truly deserves whatever punishment God puts on them.

But to say that a person deserves to go to Hell for not following a BOOK that not only has no factual basis, but that the fictional character in it has never made an appearance that we could rely on ? How rediculous.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You have said that before...

But I see it as a cop out...not on your part, but on "God's" part.


As much as I usually disagree with Xmarksthespot on many issues, he/she is right about one thing: Beleif needs to be justified if it is to be spread in the effort to convert those who do not beleive.

I can't just make myself beleive something Storm. I can say that "I beleive" 800 times If I want, that won't make it true. I am not convinced.

Keep in mind, Storm, that I was Christian for 18 years of my life. Atleast 9 of those years I beleived in God and in Christianity, VERY STRONGLY, and had very few, IF ANY, doubts in my Faith.

I look back now, and realize that I only beleived those things because: 1) I was taught to beleive it, 2) It was convienent for me to beleive it at the time.

There was never any proof for my beleif. I never had a 100% VALID reason for my Faith. So you mean to tell me that after NINE years of beleiving in God, with NO PROOF of his existance, I should start beleiving again just to make sure ?

HA! Nice try, this time I am asking for a valid reason to beleive, and if God cannot supply it, then he is either limitted or simply doesn't exist.
I' m aware of your situation.

Disassociated from doctrine, some experience God in all and everything; in the beauty of a flower, or hear it in the voice of a bird, ... And that is all they need.

Originally posted by Storm
I' m aware of your situation.

Disassociated from doctrine, some experience God in all and everything; in the beauty of a flower, or hear it in the voice of a bird, ... And that is all they need.


Yes, I feel that at times too. But how do I know it's the Christian God ?


I beleive in a creational and unifying force. I do not beleive that the world is purely physical, by any means what-so-ever. It's hard for me to buy that emotions and sentimentality are meaningless by default of only being a result of the physical matter.


Storm, I am not asking a Christian to re-evaluate why they beleive what they beleive. I don't feel I have the right to ask that, since they can beleive whatever the want. However, coming onto these forums, the majority of the subject matter is "You must convert, or end up in Hell"


A strong claim to make, but if you want me to convert to your religion and change my life, then you better supply me with some valid reasoning as to why I should beleive you. (Not you as in literally you, but you as in general)



There is much reason to beleive in some kind of collective force. But I have found no valid means yet to beleive in the Abrahamic perception of God. And even less reason to beleive in Hell.

There are signs and miracles being performed in the name of God. Until you actually take time out of your day to actually attempt to witness one you'll never believe though...
I and heard of the lame walking, schitzophrenia cured, depression removed, etc. Miracles and healing are there, but you need to seek it seems nowadays. I think that it is a error of the church nowadays that the miracles are preserved for believers instead of being part of ministry. Jesus, Peter, and Paul, all healed people in their ministries so it would seem prudent for people of our day to do so as well, but they don't. I think this needs to change.

Originally posted by Nellinator
There are signs and miracles being performed in the name of God. Until you actually take time out of your day to actually attempt to witness one you'll never believe though...
I and heard of the lame walking, schitzophrenia cured, depression removed, etc. Miracles and healing are there, but you need to seek it seems nowadays. I think that it is a error of the church nowadays that the miracles are preserved for believers instead of being part of ministry. Jesus, Peter, and Paul, all healed people in their ministries so it would seem prudent for people of our day to do so as well, but they don't. I think this needs to change.



I have heard of these too. But I have also heard of other "miracles" occuring outside of the Christian realm.

I suspect there may be a reasonable explanation for all miracles, whether they be Christian or otherwise. I beleive we as human beings have more ability than we beleive we do. I beleive that people who are in touch with this world, with nature, with the universe, in a much deeper way than the superficial, can do amazing things.

I could be wrong, but who knows.




I just find it too conflicting that the same person who cures diseases, ends suffering, etc. also created Hell.

Originally posted by Nellinator
There are signs and miracles being performed in the name of God. Until you actually take time out of your day to actually attempt to witness one you'll never believe though...
I and heard of the lame walking, schitzophrenia cured, depression removed, etc. Miracles and healing are there, but you need to seek it seems nowadays. I think that it is a error of the church nowadays that the miracles are preserved for believers instead of being part of ministry. Jesus, Peter, and Paul, all healed people in their ministries so it would seem prudent for people of our day to do so as well, but they don't. I think this needs to change. These are not signs of miracles or some divine intervention; many are self healing, wrong diagnoses, tricks or personal beliefs. People without faith have done the same things so this is nothing new, people see what they want to see. Now if a person was dead for a week and came to life that would be a miracle or if all the pollution disappeared, these are things that would be considered miracles, something that could not happen.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
With people like me and everyone else who rejects the concept of Christian-Judeo-Muslim mainstream monotheistic God, doesn't God get sick and tired of us constantly attacking, challenging, questioning, and making fun of him?

(Assuming he exists)

There are people who speak on behalf of God. Some intelligent, but some total idiots. However, these "followers" fail to carry out his defense very well, since:

1) They cannot agree on the same subjects, each denomination and religious individual disagrees when it comes to Religious Intepretation.

2) Religious people have not been that successful in convincing Athiests/Agnostics or people of other Faiths that thier God truly exists, and that thier religious reference is truly valid.


The Bible/Quran/Torah cannot speak for themselves. Those things need people to speak for them, and are nothing without the worshippers who carry out the message.


Wouldn't it be a little simpler or more effective if God just spoke to all of us HIMSELF instead of shying away behind alure, mystery, fantasy, and virtual non-existance ?


Why doesn't he just speak up for himself? Why not just PROVE religious bashers like me WRONG ?



TODAY !



God, if you exist, I challenge you to show yourself to me. I am opening my mind ! I am ready....just show me a GLIMPSE of yourself...even if it's just a little suggestion...a sign...anything that could get me to beleive in you once again.


Alright guys....you can not accuse me of being closed minded any further...I am waiting. Let's see if this works !
i kinda understand where you are coming from. i really do. but, god places us here on earth with free will. we can believe what we want to. if you are a christian, atheist, muslim, whatever....you make this decision yourself. he is not gonna make you believe, you have to make that decision yourself.
also, god and\or jesus is not gonna rise to your "challenge." he is above petty BS like that.

They are allegorical and metaphorical.

Miracles are still taking place in their eyes.

did you just use david blain and jesus in the same sentence? blain is an illusionist, nothing more. that just ludicrous.

Why do you want to be a believer in the first place? Just kick back and live your life. I don't see why people feel the need to believe in something like god or religion. The best answer to the question "is there a god" is who give a rats ass it's not important.

If god showed you a sign of his presence you will be left with nothing but more questions.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
did you just use david blain and jesus in the same sentence? blain is an illusionist, nothing more. that just ludicrous.

Well, at least I am rather sure that Blaine exists.

Why is it ludicrous to compare the two? Because you and others think that Jesus is the son of God? Well, if Blaine would have done that stuff back then people would have thought him a Miracle worker as well. And he could have pretended to be the son of God, don't you think?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, at least I am rather sure that Blaine exists.

Why is it ludicrous to compare the two? Because you and others think that Jesus is the son of God? Well, if Blaine would have done that stuff back then people would have thought him a Miracle worker as well. And he could have pretended to be the son of God, don't you think?

Hell I could have clamed to be the son of god back then people were so stupid. Comparen the to makes perfect since the only difference is we are smart enough now to see through the BS. Jesus would get booed off stage for his magic show today, walking on water is lame.

I'm the same i don't possibly see how god is real and i don't understand how people can have so much faith in something so far-fetched(in my opinion).

It seems to me people are using any excuse to make god seem real

example: someone surviving a car crash ,a believer would automatically say the survival was due to there faith in god,

whereas it could be the fact the survivor was wearing his seat belt,

and if "god" really produced all those impossible miracles all them years ago why is it that now when the world has advanced so much and when we need him most ,does he fail to perform?

so, quick question. what do you guys think happens when we die?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so, quick question. what do you guys think happens when we die?

Life ends. No dreams. No other world. No spirit. Nothing but empty dark silence terrifying if you think about it too much.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so, quick question. what do you guys think happens when we die? Decay

I' m inclined to join in the speculation that any and all consciousness ceases to exist at death, and that death itself is ultimately the exact same experience as prior to conception.

I fell in a pool when I was 6 and died for a little bit and I know nothing of it one minite my eye were open and I was sucking in water then next I was coughing up water. I didn't see a light or anything just emptiness; no sound; no feeling; nothing. For me nothing scares me more than that feeling.

Death doesn't scare me, the pain and suffering to get there does a bit.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Is that TOO MUCH to ask of an Almighty God ? To just prove his existance ? Or am I asking too much? I EXIST!
Signed........God

Like that??

Originally posted by debbiejo
I EXIST!
Signed........God

Like that?? I didn't know he spoke English

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I didn't dismiss anything. I am waiting for God to show himself. If he only shows himself through my intentional application of him onto a situation, then it doesn't mean anything.

I am basically saying that so far I am not convinced. As much as people are telling me, I doubt any one person can convince me. If God cannot convince me of his existance, himself, then I will remain a non-beleiver.


that's what I was saying about my last statement was that i can't convince you. and no one can besides God.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Bah, that argument annoys me so much -

First we have the: You don't believe in God, and you never would no matter how much evidence you had.

Which is completely tosh and poppycock. Since there is all the evidence in the world of people going around believing in things they feel they are justified in believing. Things they have evidence for their belief. It is like the lamest get out of jail card:

Person One: Where is the evidence for God?
Person Two: No evidence would be ever enough for you! It is your fault you don't believe in God, it is your own pig headiness!
Person One: *looks at feet* Gee... I
Person Two: *Runs away while person one isn't looking*

If an Atheist got evidence their was a God they would believe. Because you see Atheist doesn't mean "person who knows their is a God but chooses not to believe", no it is much more "a person who sees no evidence to justify such a belief." Really Atheism can be blamed far more on God, as it is he, with every Atheist I know, that I see justification for it. For someone who loves us so much he seems rather impotent in understanding how we think. If he can't understand an Atheists mind set, then he is no God.

Second - The whole proof destroys faith. In ancient Egypt, In ancient Greece they had things known as natural gods. Gods of suns and storms and fertility. Every time they saw these things doing what they were meant to this affirmed their faith. Ra and Seth and Persephone were real and making the world go round. Did the fact these people believe they were getting proof of their gods mean they didn't have faith? No. It is interesting so much of this whole "Faith, just faith" only really took off with the monotheistic religions with their aloof God's. By distancing themselves from the natural world phenomena and claiming uncharted territories that people would struggle to explain (soul, after life, beginnings etc) they protected themselves for a time from doubt. And "proof destroys faith" was a damn good way to stop people asking questions.

Despite, in terms of definition, it is possible to have faith in a friend, and it is possible that faith can be built upon a persons evidence that that friend is deserving of that faith.



Hmmm. I imagine you mean the Bible. Your copy printed on man made paper, written by men, in a language created by man, translated by men. Preached by men. Benefiting men only if they believe it.



I agree that faith should be able to stand on something (evidence of some sort) however i don't have time to get into all the evidence of things and why some people don't believe in them. As far as all athist believing if their was evidence that's not true. Many athist still believe in darweenan (spelled wrong) evolution even though that's been disproven multiple times (not all evolution just that one theory). As far as uzin goes he knows all about the bible and was a "Christian" for like 18 years he knows most likely everything I know so what would I have to tell him. And yeah i know all about evolution and creationism and I have made an intelligent decision about the matter. Both atheism and theism require faith because simply we don't know everything there is to know. I'm not trying to bash atheist i understand that many of them have looked at both sides and have decided to go with atheism. All I was saying in my comment is that i don't thing any one on this forum or anyway is going to convince uzin either way. Just because it seems to me he knows all the information.


as far as the bible comment once again it comes from the faith I have that the writers (the original writers) were inspired by God to write it. if you don't believe that, that's fine with me i don't need you to justify the conclusions i have come to.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i kinda understand where you are coming from. i really do. but, god places us here on earth with free will. we can believe what we want to. if you are a christian, atheist, muslim, whatever....you make this decision yourself. he is not gonna make you believe, you have to make that decision yourself.

Yes, but if you make the wrong decision, you'll end up in Hell


Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
also, god and\or jesus is not gonna rise to your "challenge." he is above petty BS like that.

He's above that, yet he's not above sending people to Hell/Eternal Torment for disobeying him ?

He's above that, yet he's not above sending people to Hell/Eternal Torment for disobeying him ?
in a nutshell.

Any being that would send another to an eternal torment is just plain evil!!

Not really. Some people don't deserve heaven if they want to continue their lifestyles. No just or good God would let a vulgar murderer and rapist troll around in heaven.

Originally posted by Strangelove
I won a staring contest with your avvy, it blinked I was looking at her sig, and the avy scared the shit out of me.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Not really. Some people don't deserve heaven if they want to continue their lifestyles. No just or good God would let a vulgar murderer and rapist troll around in heaven. What would make you think as spirits that we would have the same human physical thoughts as we would here on earth? Spirits of god would be all part of god and would be pure and enlightened. If that would be the case then god would be sending pure enlightened un-evil spirits to hell.

Originally posted by Storm
I' m aware of your situation.

Disassociated from doctrine, some experience God in all and everything; in the beauty of a flower, or hear it in the voice of a bird, ... And that is all they need.

But that is not all everybody needs. Especially when their are other ways to explain the flower, the birds song. There was a poet who accused Newton, I believe, of destroying the beauty of the rainbow by explaining the science behind it. Now I find science a wonderful and beautiful thing, and don't think the beauty of the flower is at all reduced just because I have a good understanding of botany. Nor to I believe I could appreciate it any more if I attributed supernatural divinity to it somehow. There is more beauty to me in nature and science and human ingenuity then the concept of divinity.

And that is a problem with the Abrahamic God's. The claim that their truth is somehow universal and capable of touching everybody. I see no evidence of this, and that makes me question all claims about it. If this God or that God is incapable of approaching people on an individual basis and addressing their needs when it comes to faith... well, that sounds rather limited in my view.

The fact people convert away from such faiths to any number of other faiths seems to indicate the imperfection in the way of communication. They are finding truth or beauty or understanding at the root of other religions. Yet most faiths operate on the whole "we are the one and only" - so what is God (whichever ones problem) if his message is not bright amongst all the others? If it is a dim thing that does hold some to it, and totally fails to connect with others?

I have done some marketing work, and when a marketing campaign goes bad, fails to draw in the punters, the prospective customers, the people running it are not allowed to say "well, clearly the people are to stupid to see the wonder of what we are trying to tell them" or "well, it wouldn't matter what we did, they will never be receptive" - simply because statistical and practically they are garbage excuses. It is the failure of the campaign designers, their message which is to blame. They aren't connecting with the people. If I was to believe in God I don't see how it is any different. His marketing campaign, run by his followers, is not meeting the needs of many to find faith in his message. And for a God who is so wrapped up in having us follow him, and with so much power to influence, it is remarkable he doesn't appear to do anything for many - followers and non-followers alike.

The problems you mention are not with God, but rather with his followers. God is capable of meeting many personal needs. God is very personal and the Bible very specifically says that Jesus wants to know you. If there was a lack of ability to communicate I would never have converted to Christianity. It is the self-centeredness and hypocrisy of people that prevent God from reaching them because 'Christians' often are an example of what they don't want to be.
On your marketing comments... if God wanted customers coming to meet their wants and then leave, he would market. But that is superficial. God is deeper and wants friendship and love. I don't think you would wear a sandwich board saying that you wanted these things if that was what you were looking for.

If God is an invisible intangible matter that craps out reality or what we call universe. That means you cannot hear him speak.

That would be limiting God, something I try not to do. If he can create the universe he can easily speak to us.

I take back what i said above. He can speak to us but God chose to do what He wants and what He is doing right now is observing us whats happening.

God reveals Himself through His word and as other people have said, His creation.

Originally posted by dirkdirden
Life ends. No dreams. No other world. No spirit. Nothing but empty dark silence terrifying if you think about it too much.
so theres nothing out there? no other side? no afterlife? is this what you guys truly believe?

Luke 11:29As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.


You want God to speak but God asks for Faith... you alone possess that choice.

even if you have faith, that doesnt mean god will speak to you. you will feel god, but you will not actually speak to him or see him.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
With people like me and everyone else who rejects the concept of Christian-Judeo-Muslim mainstream monotheistic God, doesn't God get sick and tired of us constantly attacking, challenging, questioning, and making fun of him?

(Assuming he exists)

There are people who speak on behalf of God. Some intelligent, but some total idiots. However, these "followers" fail to carry out his defense very well, since:

1) They cannot agree on the same subjects, each denomination and religious individual disagrees when it comes to Religious Intepretation.

2) Religious people have not been that successful in convincing Athiests/Agnostics or people of other Faiths that thier God truly exists, and that thier religious reference is truly valid.


The Bible/Quran/Torah cannot speak for themselves. Those things need people to speak for them, and are nothing without the worshippers who carry out the message.


Wouldn't it be a little simpler or more effective if God just spoke to all of us HIMSELF instead of shying away behind alure, mystery, fantasy, and virtual non-existance ?


Why doesn't he just speak up for himself? Why not just PROVE religious bashers like me WRONG ?



TODAY !



God, if you exist, I challenge you to show yourself to me. I am opening my mind ! I am ready....just show me a GLIMPSE of yourself...even if it's just a little suggestion...a sign...anything that could get me to beleive in you once again.


Alright guys....you can not accuse me of being closed minded any further...I am waiting. Let's see if this works !

Then the devil took Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If you are the Son of God throw yourself down. For it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning you,' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone." Jesus said to him, "On the other hand it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" - Matthew 4:5-7

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
But that is not all everybody needs. Especially when their are other ways to explain the flower, the birds song. There was a poet who accused Newton, I believe, of destroying the beauty of the rainbow by explaining the science behind it. Now I find science a wonderful and beautiful thing, and don't think the beauty of the flower is at all reduced just because I have a good understanding of botany. Nor to I believe I could appreciate it any more if I attributed supernatural divinity to it somehow. There is more beauty to me in nature and science and human ingenuity then the concept of divinity.

And that is a problem with the Abrahamic God's. The claim that their truth is somehow universal and capable of touching everybody. I see no evidence of this, and that makes me question all claims about it. If this God or that God is incapable of approaching people on an individual basis and addressing their needs when it comes to faith... well, that sounds rather limited in my view.

The fact people convert away from such faiths to any number of other faiths seems to indicate the imperfection in the way of communication. They are finding truth or beauty or understanding at the root of other religions. Yet most faiths operate on the whole "we are the one and only" - so what is God (whichever ones problem) if his message is not bright amongst all the others? If it is a dim thing that does hold some to it, and totally fails to connect with others?

I have done some marketing work, and when a marketing campaign goes bad, fails to draw in the punters, the prospective customers, the people running it are not allowed to say "well, clearly the people are to stupid to see the wonder of what we are trying to tell them" or "well, it wouldn't matter what we did, they will never be receptive" - simply because statistical and practically they are garbage excuses. It is the failure of the campaign designers, their message which is to blame. They aren't connecting with the people. If I was to believe in God I don't see how it is any different. His marketing campaign, run by his followers, is not meeting the needs of many to find faith in his message. And for a God who is so wrapped up in having us follow him, and with so much power to influence, it is remarkable he doesn't appear to do anything for many - followers and non-followers alike.

May I be so bold to answer to a post addressed to Storm.

As far as I can see, Storm said ''disassociated with doctrine'' yet you continue to mention Abrahamic God further in your post.

It seems to me, that for the better part, you do not see, nor attempt to understand idea of God, beyond the doctrine(s) you are vaguely familiar with.

Hey, Lil' B! I really like the words in your signature.

Originally posted by Council#13
Hey, Lil' B! I really like the words in your signature.

Thanks! It really amused me when I read it, so I decided to include it into my signature.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so theres nothing out there? no other side? no afterlife? is this what you guys truly believe? Why is that so surprising?

Originally posted by Council#13
Then the devil took Him into the holy city; and he had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, "If you are the Son of God throw yourself down. For it is written, 'He will give His angels charge concerning you,' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone." Jesus said to him, "On the other hand it is written, 'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.'" - Matthew 4:5-7


Is that a THREAT ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
With people like me and everyone else who rejects the concept of Christian-Judeo-Muslim mainstream monotheistic God, doesn't God get sick and tired of us constantly attacking, challenging, questioning, and making fun of him?

(Assuming he exists)

There are people who speak on behalf of God. Some intelligent, but some total idiots. However, these "followers" fail to carry out his defense very well, since:

1) They cannot agree on the same subjects, each denomination and religious individual disagrees when it comes to Religious Intepretation.

2) Religious people have not been that successful in convincing Athiests/Agnostics or people of other Faiths that thier God truly exists, and that thier religious reference is truly valid.


The Bible/Quran/Torah cannot speak for themselves. Those things need people to speak for them, and are nothing without the worshippers who carry out the message.


Wouldn't it be a little simpler or more effective if God just spoke to all of us HIMSELF instead of shying away behind alure, mystery, fantasy, and virtual non-existance ?


Why doesn't he just speak up for himself? Why not just PROVE religious bashers like me WRONG ?



TODAY !



God, if you exist, I challenge you to show yourself to me. I am opening my mind ! I am ready....just show me a GLIMPSE of yourself...even if it's just a little suggestion...a sign...anything that could get me to beleive in you once again.


Alright guys....you can not accuse me of being closed minded any further...I am waiting. Let's see if this works !



God has shown himself to you just by the fact that you are.

Originally posted by Punkyhermy


God has shown himself to you just by the fact that you are.


Another Blind Faith argument......NEXT

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Another Blind Faith argument......NEXT


you just don't get it do you?

Originally posted by Punkyhermy


God has shown himself to you just by the fact that you are.

How do you know that the understanding of God that you have is the same as the understanding that anyone else has?

What if God was different to everyone?

What if your understanding was incomplete?

Originally posted by Punkyhermy


you just don't get it do you?




Asking me to submit through Blind Faith, or to intentionally apply God to a situation is not what I am looking for.

Originally posted by ThePittman
Why is that so surprising?
IF thats the case, then how do you explain all the ghost sightings around the world? (personally i think they are all BS, but they are still there.)

and is this your personal opinion, or do you consider it fact?

ok, heres a question.

you dont believe in christ. you die. next thing you know, you are being judged by god. do you repent, or do you stick to your beliefs and risk eternity in hell?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so its a win win scenario for you? believe me. if you die a non believer, you are going to hell.


Peejayd, how knows the Bible better than you do, already stated that it's untrue. Those who have love in thier hearts, those who are compassionate, and those who are good people will NOT go to Hell, whether they beleive or not.


Only the most evil of people will end up in Hell.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Peejayd, how knows the Bible better than you do, already stated that it's untrue. Those who have love in thier hearts, those who are compassionate, and those who are good people will NOT go to Hell, whether they beleive or not.


Only the most evil of people will end up in Hell.
so if a guy. lets call him jim. dies at 80 myears old as a non believer he can still get to heaven if he was a decent man? this is your theory?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so if a guy. lets call him jim. dies at 80 myears old as a non believer he can still get to heaven if he was a decent man? this is your theory?



Yes, If God is truly all-loving, then God will allow him into Heaven. Assuming that God and Heaven even exist, which they most likely do not.

If that 80 year old man, who was a decent, loving, hard working person, ends up being tortured for ALL Eternity, then there is seriously something wrong and cruel about your God.

thats not how it works. and you say i dont know my religion?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
thats not how it works. and you say i dont know my religion?


Peejayd, another Christian, already proved that this is how it works.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
thats not how it works. and you say i dont know my religion?

So are you telling me that God created religion????? NO HE DIDN'T your religion was created by man, more than likely greedy men who used the religion to gain power and prosecute others.

Originally posted by dirkdirden
So are you telling me that God created religion????? NO HE DIDN'T your religion was created by man, more than likely greedy men who used the religion to gain power and prosecute others.





Dude, he doesn't get it. He's already brainwashed into the mainstream, conservative, business for religion mentality that many of his kind are bought and sold into.

It will take him YEARS to realize it's all a lie.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen


Dude, he doesn't get it. He's already brainwashed into the mainstream, conservative, business for religion mentality that many of his kind are bought and sold into.

It will take him YEARS to realize it's all a lie.
ah....so you have found someone to latch onto, to say "he doesnt get it" too.
i am brainwashed for having a set of beliefs? i have already established that while i believe in christ, i have my own theory on how things work. i am not your typical die hard holy roller christian, and, if you pay attention to my posts, you will see this. you yourself told me that it is preferrable to have your own theory than to just buying in to what others want us to believe.
on the contrary....it took me YEARS to see the truth. if you go through life and you keep on believing there is no christ, thats all well and good. no skin off my back. but dont sit there and say i am "brainwashed" or that i am living a "lie". i could say the sane to you, but out of respect for your right to have an opinion, i refrain from doing so.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
ok, heres a question.

you dont believe in christ. you die. next thing you know, you are being judged by god. do you repent, or do you stick to your beliefs and risk eternity in hell? Ha, you're threatening him with fairy tales. ISn't that what they did in Kintergarten?

no, they taught us to spell and basic math.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so theres nothing out there? no other side? no afterlife? is this what you guys truly believe? No words are necessary, only the creation, but then we are not talking about the same entity for a god to communicate, though they could be used by other people and in nature and dreams.... Also, peoples works, coincidences, But people have to see them and acknowledge them.....For one instance for me there is one of many examples....I had a very expensive ring....so much so that you cannot buy this diamond (blue diamond one carrot) on the market today, well it fell out, it was my mothers. At the time I thought nothing of it except oh big time shit!!! But looking back, that was the universes way of saying something of quite significance. It meant that the relationship would soon be gone just like the diamond. Now I tend to see things in this manor. Things just don't happen by circumstance,or coincidence there is always communications. If I would of seen and headed that word as I call it, then I would of been more prepared for what was going to happen, which I was not. Now I do not make that mistake. Seeing what the universe put to or against you could be a warning! It could be a "change what you are doing", it could be a " Time to move on", it could be a "this is no longer serving you".............It does not judge, but is there for those that see it. Since I've done so, and this is quite a learning and listening experience. Once that takes practice, life has been quite open, free, not alone, cause we really are not! Oh, and enjoying the learning and experience of it, but if do not heed it ,then there are always the consequences of it, that is why it is so important to listen to what I may call god/spirit/force. Btw this is only one example of many now that I know what to look for.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
no, they taught us to spell and basic math. The word is maths. With an s.

thanx, professor.

ignorance puts this "something we could call in the box of children, though children are more open and not brainwashed,......The Jesus, messah, the savior" is one that is weak minded..they cannot take what is given to them by some source, whether it be by their own contact with the spirit before they came here, the fact that they cannot except that others and themselves are responsible (main point or they are afraid to see that to see it (there only belief could be wrong)...It's that they are AFRAID OF HELL the imaginary place according to scripture that was not instituted by a fricken JESUS Not even when shown to them by the actual documents!!! And you can get the "church documents from any store...secular or not store...........geez, even the library.

Speak for yourself. You have been shown many times that hell is Biblical. You are being ignorant of this fact.

agreed.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Speak for yourself. You have been shown many times that hell is Biblical. You are being ignorant of this fact. Well I have heard that ignorance is bliss!!Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
agreed. Ignorace is sold on ebay now.....don't over bid each other............lol

you have enough for all of us, thank you very much.

Bidding starts at .99 You can afford it quite literally...

HelL for the bizillionth time IS NOT A REAL PLACE!!

yes huh.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Bidding starts at .99 You can afford it quite literally...

HelL for the bizillionth time IS NOT A REAL PLACE!! Don't tell me, I know it's not a real place.

yes huh.

Originally posted by ThePittman
Don't tell me, I know it's not a real place.

I believe what Jesus said about it being an actual place. So, Hell is a "literal" place.

*frowns as he tries to read JIA's blue text*

the address to hell? oh, thats rich.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
the address to hell? oh, thats rich. thankyou I'll be here all week

bar b q? open bar? heated pool?

BBQ pitt_woot

dammit. i love bbq hot links. babes in red bikinis?

Jesus didn't say it........didn't didn't didn't..........

What he meant was *asks Jesus once again*, OH he says, Nope, It was metaphorical for the weeping and gnashing of your life on earth now.....

*Thanks Jesus and waves good bye*

Originally posted by Nellinator
Speak for yourself. You have been shown many times that hell is Biblical. You are being ignorant of this fact.

I concur with Nellinator's remark.

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." Matthew 15:46
Look at that, hell has eternal punishment. Jesus said it himself. I have posted this for you before, but you choose to be annoying and ignorant to this. Hell is a place of eternal punishment.

yup. not a happy place indeed.

It's Matthew 25:46.