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I know I have said before that you cannot compare real humans to MU, but there is also a bigger reason why you cannot compare real humans to MU humans, The Celestials. It seems to me that eventhough not all human beings have powers all human beings are mutants, in the sense that all human beings have mutated genes. I say this because.....


The Celestials made experiments upon the neanderthal men, resulting not only in humans- that's us- but in the cosmically-charged god-like Eternals, and bestial sub-human Deviants, who were cursed with an unstable genetic code, causing each new generation to be more horribly deformed than the last.

This was taken from http://www.geocities.com/brenni_au/XFactor.html

Interestingly enough there is this as well...

Moreover, on scanning the city of Anchorage for mutants in order to pinpoint Cyclops's location, the Master Mold discovered that human beings contain some mutated cells. Hence, the Master Mold decided that according to its programming to eliminate all mutants, all human beings must be destroyed.

The above was taken from http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/m/mastermold.htm

Therefore what is the cause of superhuman powers and mutation in the MU? The Celestials. This can explains why you have mutants and why humans can gain superhuman powers. It even explains how apparently normal human beings can do "superhuman" acts. In some cases humans need to mutate, but an ordinary human being can also gain superhuman powers by learning either martial arts or magic. Eventhough these humans do not have powers magic and martials arts if studied to an extreme level can give them the equivalent of super powers because they already have mutated genes.

In the real world this is what mutated genes do.

Research using recent molecular biology techniques is revealing that human cancers are caused by gene mutation. http://rerf.or.jp/eigo/radefx/late/mutatrbc.htm

Therefore the argument thats says a character cannot do such and such because he is human does not hold any weight because all MU humans are genetically different from MU humans, and this mutation is what gives real humans their potential.

interesting . . .

Originally posted by invisiblewoman
interesting . . .

Thats right all human beings have the X-factor on varying levels. The whole reason why you have human beings in the first place is genetic mutation. In the real world its evolution or whatever, but its not genetic manipulation.

Comparing real humans to MU humans is a complete waste of time.

So basically, all humans are really mutants?

Basically, yes.

they just haven't moved to an advanced mutated state (which gives them unique powers and weakness) ?

Originally posted by invisiblewoman
they just haven't moved to an advanced mutated state (which gives them unique powers and weakness) ?

Yes, but im also trying to point out that this explains why even non-superhuman superheroes can dodge bullets and lasers and can defeat less skilled superhumans.

Even if a human being has not been mutated he is still a mutant and has much greater potential than real world counterparts.

Characters with inadequate physical attributes to dodge bullets and lasers, do it because 1) it's more due to anticipation and bad aim and 2) if they didn't they'd die and dead characters don't sell comic books.

Not all mutations result to cancer. I'm pretty sure that every human in the real world have some sort of mutations in their genes, not even noticeable.

And you can compare real humans to comic book humans, as long as the comic book humans are not superheroes/villains. The reason why they do all that stuff is because of (bad) writing, not some genetic reason.

Going to this sort of stuff is maybe going TOO deep.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Characters with inadequate physical attributes to dodge bullets and lasers, do it because 1) it's more due to anticipation and bad aim and 2) if they didn't they'd die and dead characters don't sell comic books.

Oh God decided to come back down here have we? Well if mutated genes give you mutant powers and even human beings possess them this could explain it.


Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Not all mutations result to cancer.

Yes but the whole human race is a mutant race in the MU universe. Mutation in the real world does not give you superhuman powers.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
I'm pretty sure that every human in the real world have some sort of mutations in their genes, not even noticeable.

Well until you can prove it, thats speculation. I think the accepted opinion is most humans dont.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler

And you can compare real humans to comic book humans, as long as the comic book humans are not superheroes/villains. The reason why they do all that stuff is because of (bad) writing, not some genetic reason.

Going to this sort of stuff is maybe going TOO deep.

Well im sure there must be some people with mutated cells that dont have cancer...but.....

1. MU humans are a mutant race that were experimented on by the Celestials

2. Mutation in the real world cant give powers.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh God decided to come back down here have we? Well if mutated genes give you mutant powers and even human beings possess them this could explain it.Down here? You mean to the comic forums where I've been coming for a year and a half now.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well until you can prove it, thats speculation. I think the accepted opinion is most humans dont.Uh.. wrong.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Down here? You mean to the comic forums where I've been coming for a year and a half now.

Yes but you have been spending more time up there.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Uh.. wrong.

Ok elaborate please.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh God decided to come back down here have we? Well if mutated genes give you mutant powers and even human beings possess them this could explain it.




Yes but the whole human race is a mutant race in the MU universe. Mutation in the real world does not give you superhuman powers.



Well until you can prove it, thats speculation. I think the accepted opinion is most humans dont.



Well im sure there must be some people with mutated cells that dont have cancer...but.....

1. MU humans are a mutant race that were experimented on by the Celestials

2. Mutation in the real world cant give powers.

But that still doesn't have anything to do with the reason guys like Batman or Daredevil dodge bullets. Normal MU human doesn't have any kind of superhuman powers, and generally is not faster or stronger then any of us are.

Superheroes and villains who are humans don't do that stuff because of some genetical difference.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But that still doesn't have anything to do with the reason guys like Batman or Daredevil dodge bullets. Normal MU human doesn't have any kind of superhuman powers, and generally is not faster or stronger then any of us are.

Superheroes and villains who are humans don't do that stuff because of some genetical difference.

Well if mutation gives you powers and the human race is a mutant race that would explain it. Why do you think Master Mold flipped because in his world mutated genes have the potential to give you super powers.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but you have been spending more time up there.

Ok elaborate please. Mutation is the basis of essentially all genetic variation. Polymorphisms are essentially mutations that have become prevalent. By such logic the real world human species, and all species are consequently mutants.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Mutation is the basis of essentially all genetic variation. Polymorphisms are essentially mutations that have become prevalent. By such logic the real world human species, and all species are consequently mutants.

Well from what I understand what you're saying is that just simply differences in organisms can be considered to be mutations. So what you're saying is that for example human are mutants in the sense that they are different from apes?

If thats what you're saying then why aren't humans called mutants. Why does the word exist? Humans in the MU are considered to be mutants because they were deliberatley genetically altered to become humans, but in the real world it just happened. Theres a big difference.

Its like saying all people are Africans because our ancestors descended from Africa but more specifically we are Asian, European etc.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well from what I understand what you're saying is that just simply differences in organisms can be considered to be mutations. So what you're saying is that for example human are mutants in the sense that they are different from apes? No I'm saying genetic variation intraspecies is due to mutation.

The human mutation rate is estimated at approximately 2.5x10^-8 per nucleotide per generation, this means that - from the little I remember from population genetics - in the human population of roughly 6 billion people, for any given locus in the human genome there are 15 "mutants".
Originally posted by Alfheim
If thats what you're saying then why aren't humans called mutants. Why does the word exist? Humans in the MU are considered to be mutants because they were deliberatley genetically altered to become humans, but in the real world it just happened. Theres a big difference. You said that most humans don't have mutations. I said you were wrong. You asked me to elaborate. And I did.

This is about Captain America, isn't it?

Originally posted by Dinalfos
This is about Captain America, isn't it? Bingo was his name-o.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

in the human population of roughly 6 billion people, for any given locus in the human genome there are 15 "mutants".

15 out of 6 billion....thats not alot im saying that all humans in the MU are mutants.


Originally posted by Dinalfos
This is about Captain America, isn't it?

I hate you.....go away. I knew you would smell blood and come down here. Its about peak humans I like street levelers and yes I guess that would include Captain America. Before I wrote this thread I almost said Dinalfos go away.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Bingo was his name-o.

Its about peak humans not just Cap. I like MA characters I dont just do Cap Vs threads you know.

Ooops double post.

Every human is a mutation as well as any living creature ...
Evolution theory ...
Mutation --> variation --> selection --> evolution

Don't tell me you read the creation theory crap in school ...
The bible is nothing more than a collection of tale's ... pretty bad once too.

Originally posted by Alfheim
15 out of 6 billion....thats not alot im saying that all humans in the MU are mutants. 15 new mutants per locus i.e. nucleotide out of the 3 billion in the human genome in a given generation. It's called genetic variation. All humans in the real world are technically mutants.

(NB I don't remember population genetics well this may be an over- or under-estimate.)

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
dead characters don't sell comic books.


Dead-man, Shaun of the dead, Spawn and Angel may disagree

Originally posted by willRules
Dead-man, Shaun of the dead, Spawn and Angel may disagree Touche. I think people would probably still buy Dead-Wolverine or Dead-Batman.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Touche. I think people would probably still buy Dead-Wolverine or Dead-Batman.


lol


Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The bible is nothing more than a collection of tale's ... pretty bad once too.


Must........ resist urge .........to.......... debate with such a stupid statement............

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Every human is a mutation as well as any living creature ...
Evolution theory ...
Mutation --> variation --> selection --> evolution

Don't tell me you read the creation theory crap in school ...
The bible is nothing more than a collection of tale's ... pretty bad once too.

Yes but thats not the same as being genetically altered by the Celestials.



Originally posted by xmarksthespot
15 new mutants per locus i.e. nucleotide out of the 3 billion in the human genome in a given generation. It's called genetic variation. All humans in the real world are technically mutants.

(NB I don't remember population genetics well this may be an over- or under-estimate.)

Sorry you're language is very technical, I misunderstand you alot. Yes but again there seems to be mutation and theres mutation. Its like saying all people are Africans because our ancestors descended from Africa but more specifically we are Asian, European etc. I think I can understand what you're saying and you are not incorrect but its like you have used the term mutation in a way which can inclulde everything.

Again all human beings can be considered to be mutants but obvously there is still a reason why people use the term mutate because there must be some more extreme versions. Again human beings in the Mu were genetically altered to become human beings this therefore implies that what the Celestials did was an extreme form of muation because human beings would not have been created, also mutation in the MU equal super powers.

Another way of looking at is this, if you had a real world human analysed by Master Mold he probably would not detect anything.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well if mutation gives you powers and the human race is a mutant race that would explain it. Why do you think Master Mold flipped because in his world mutated genes have the potential to give you super powers.

But it doesn't explain it, because 99% of the comic humans are not different from us in strength or speed or other things.

Superheroes and villains do the stuff because writing, not because genetics.

Too much is blamed on genetics these days. Apparently there is a bullying gene now as well

Originally posted by Alfheim
Again human beings in the Mu were genetically altered to become human beings this therefore implies that what the Celestials did was an extreme form of muation because human beings would not have been created, also mutation in the MU equal super powers.

Another way of looking at is this, if you had a real world human analysed by Master Mold he probably would not detect anything. The end result for the vast vast majority of the population is exactly the same in both comic and real world. Ordinary humans.

Mutation does not automatically equate to superpowers. Mutation is just variation. Certain mutations or mutagens in the MU grant superpowers, such as the X-gene or exposure to the Terrigen Mists.

True to following it's programming to a logical conclusion yes, Master Mold probably would kill all humans if it existed in the real world.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But it doesn't explain it, because 99% of the comic humans are not different from us in strength or speed or other things.


it does because you're average human being if he trains hard enough can:

Dodge bullets and lasers, people like Shin Kuei, Shang Chi etc
Can have mental powers Dr Doom, Moondragon
Can sense pressure points, Mantis

You're average comic human has for more potential.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The end result for the vast vast majority of the population is exactly the same in both comic and real world. Ordinary humans.

In Marvel 616 there are a majority of human beings not a vast majority. The mutant race including altered humans implies that mutants are a big minority.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Mutation does not automatically equate to superpowers. Mutation is just variation. Certain mutations or mutagens in the MU grant superpowers, such as the X-gene or exposure to the Terrigen Mists.

Yes but what im saying is that the mutation in all human beings gives them superhuman potential


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

True to following it's programming to a logical conclusion yes, Master Mold probably would kill all humans if it existed in the real world.

No he would not because mutation in the real world does not lead to superhuman powers. Mutation in the MU does therefore this implies that mutation in the MU is more extreme than in the real world. Im sure Master Mold was already aware that human beings were mutants but what freaked him out was that they all had the potential for superhuman powers.

Originally posted by willRules
Too much is blamed on genetics these days. Apparently there is a bullying gene now as well

Then these researches must definitely have the stupid gene.

Originally posted by Alfheim


Dodge bullets and lasers, people like Shin Kuei, Shang Chi etc

Martial Arts are overblown in comics , we all know it.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Can have mental powers Dr Doom, Moondragon

Aliens.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Can sense pressure points, Mantis

Meh thats a basic knowledge of the human anatomy and some kind of external (possibly Chi) effect.

Originally posted by grey fox


Aliens.

Yes but she was taught she was not genetically altered...was she?


Originally posted by grey fox

Meh thats a basic knowledge of the human anatomy and some kind of external (possibly Chi) effect.

So? These are things she learn't she was not genetically altered.

Originally posted by grey fox
Then these researches must definitely have the stupid gene.



lol

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The end result for the vast vast majority of the population is exactly the same in both comic and real world. Ordinary humans.



Furthermore in Earth 616 you have mutant bars and clubs. This implies that mutants are a big minority like gays for example.

Originally posted by Alfheim
it does because you're average human being if he trains hard enough can:

Dodge bullets and lasers, people like Shin Kuei, Shang Chi etc
Can have mental powers Dr Doom, Moondragon
Can sense pressure points, Mantis

You're average comic human has for more potential.


None of those are average humans. They are comic book characters.

How would you explain DC Universe?

Same thing, writer's freedom. Without that, comics would be like this:
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/2664/slmsm01oroboros015pj1.jpg
http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9985/slmsm01oroboros017im7.jpg

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
None of those are average humans. They are comic book characters.

Huh? Look all I know is that those characters are humans and they did not gain their abilities by genetic manipulation they learn't their powers. Since they are human this also implies that another average MU human if he trains hard enough can do the same

Originally posted by DarkCrawler

How would you explain DC Universe?

Apparently the white martians did something similar to human beings in the DC universe, but am I talking about the DC universe or the Marvel one? I made this thread to stick up for the human race.

If there genes aint proper said em back to Genosha! Well thats what I say.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Huh? Look all I know is that those characters are humans and they did not gain their abilities by genetic manipulation they learn't their powers. Since they are human this also implies that another average MU human if he trains hard enough can do the same

They trained to that point, but that has nothing to do with their genetics...no comics have ever even slightly implied it.

Are you honestly implying that "Generic Fat Crook #382" that Spider-Man beats on panel 6 of page 7 is any different from us?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Apparently the white martians did something similar to human beings in the DC universe, but am I talking about the DC universe or the Marvel one? I made this thread to stick up for the human race.

If there genes aint proper said em back to Genosha! Well thats what I say.

Because Marvel humans are not the only human level characters who do inhuman stuff. It's just the result of writer's freedom.

Not genetics.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
They trained to that point, but that has nothing to do with their genetics...no comics have ever even slightly implied it.

Are you honestly implying that "Generic Fat Crook #382" that Spider-Man beats on panel 6 of page 7 is any different from us?



Because Marvel humans are not the only human level characters who do inhuman stuff. It's just the result of writer's freedom.

Not genetics.

You have to look at my whole argument its not just about what The Celestials did its Master Molds reaction when he analysed normal human beings. Master Mold freaked the **** out. This is obvoulsy due to what The Celestials did.

You're just reading into things way way too much. Writers do not think, oh the Celestials experimented on humans, when they make streetlevellers do stupid things.

Originally posted by willRules
lol





Must........ resist urge .........to.......... debate with such a stupid statement............
Don't worry. Nobody takes Thanos seriously anyway.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You're just reading into things way way too much. Writers do not think, oh the Celestials experimented on humans, when they make streetlevellers do stupid things.

Does that change the fact that an average MU humans has vastly more potential than a real human due to their genetic structure?

They don't. They're human. H. sapiens sapiens. Ordinary people. A small number have evolved into a new subspecies Homo sapiens superior. A small number have latent X-gene. A small number have been enhanced by external mutagens. But the ordinary MU or DCU human is still just human.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
They don't. They're human. H. sapiens sapiens. Ordinary people. A small number have evolved into a new subspecies Homo sapiens superior. A small number have latent X-gene. A small number have been enhanced by external mutagens. But the ordinary MU or DCU human is still just human.

Wow you get here quick... Ok so why did Master Mold freak out then?

Furthermore:

The Supremor realized long ago that the Kree were at an evolutionary dead-end. Its main concern became to find a way to jump-start its race's evolution. Its manipulations of the human Rick Jones and the Kree hero Captain Marvel were part of this process, especially since it was aware of the evolutionary potential of the human race, especially the Destiny Force, which it helped awaken in Rick Jones.

I think it was stated that the supreme intellignce said that one day every single human being will have vast psionic powers.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Wow you get here quick... Ok so why did Master Mold freak out then? I'll have to go back and look at X-Factor #13 and #14 where Cyclops finds the Master Mold remnant in Alaska. But from the description likely Master Mold detected polymorphisms i.e. variation, and followed the logical conclusion that all variation is mutation and therefore all humans are mutants or alternatively detected germline mutations meaning those humans would produce mutant or latent mutant offspring.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'll have to go back and look at X-Factor #13 and #14 where Cyclops finds the Master Mold remnant in Alaska. But from the description likely Master Mold detected polymorphisms i.e. variation, and followed the logical conclusion that all variation is mutation and therefore all humans are mutants or alternatively detected germline mutations meaning those humans would produce mutant or latent mutant offspring.

Well ok but I dont think that changes anything. The whole reason why Master Mold exists is because mutants exist. The reason why mutants exist is because of the Celestials.

The Celestials genetically created humans, The Eternals and The Deviants. You even have a branch of humans called Externals. This is what the Supreme intelligence thinks of the human race:

The Supremor realized long ago that the Kree were at an evolutionary dead-end. Its main concern became to find a way to jump-start its race's evolution. Its manipulations of the human Rick Jones and the Kree hero Captain Marvel were part of this process, especially since it was aware of the evolutionary potential of the human race, especially the Destiny Force, which it helped awaken in Rick Jones.

Why does the Supreme intelligence think this? This is because humans have greater genetic potantial. If you look at what is said above the words human race is used not mutants the human race. Therefore human beings in general even ordinary ones have superhuman potential.

Evolution acts on populations not individuals. The human race as a whole is said to have the potential to supplant the Celestials over many generations, that infers absolutely nothing about the average human in the MU's physicality and personal genetic potential.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Evolution acts on populations not individuals. The human race as a whole is said to have the potential to supplant the Celestials over many generations, that infers absolutely nothing about the average human in the MU's physicality and personal genetic potential.


Ok right so, were the Krees experimented on by the Celestials? Its funny then if you're average human beings is so ordinary why is it....

The Supremor realized long ago that the Kree were at an evolutionary dead-end. Its main concern became to find a way to jump-start its race's evolution. Its manipulations of the human Rick Jones and the Kree hero Captain Marvel were part of this process, especially since it was aware of the evolutionary potential of the human race, especially the Destiny Force, which it helped awaken in Rick Jones.


The Celestials have experimented on humans and they have greater genetic potential than Krees....do the math.

Furthermore The Supreme intellignce decides to experiment on a normal human not a mutant.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Evolution acts on populations not individuals. The human race as a whole is said to have the potential to supplant the Celestials over many generations, that infers absolutely nothing about the average human in the MU's physicality and personal genetic potential.

John and Elaine Grey gave birth to Jean Grey.
John and Elaine Grey are still ordinary humans.

Edit: P.S. the Celestials did not experiment on modern humans, they experimented on protohumans resulting in humans. The means may have been different but the ends for the vast majority of humans in the MU is the same as in the real world. Ordinary humans.

*sigh*


Originally posted by xmarksthespot


John and Elaine Grey gave birth to Jean Grey.
John and Elaine Grey are still ordinary humans.

.....so?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Edit: P.S. the Celestials did not experiment on modern humans, they experimented on protohumans resulting in humans. The means may have been different but the ends for the vast majority of humans in the MU is the same as in the real world. Ordinary humans.

Yeah I know. Sorry you're just wasting my time.

Originally posted by Validus
Don't worry. Nobody takes Thanos seriously anyway.


Then my work here is done......... Even though I didn't do anything.......batman

Originally posted by Alfheim
*sigh*
.....so?
Yeah I know. Sorry you're just wasting my time. Evolution acts on the population, not the individual. Only some i.e. mutants and mutant carriers have the personal genetic potential to be more than human.

Jean Grey has basically limitless personal genetic potential as an omega mutant.
Her parents had evolutionary potential, but their personal genetic potential, with regard to their physicality or abilities, was no different than any other ordinary human being.

And again all you're doing is making biased inference. You're seeing things because you want to see them, and giving them more meaning than they actually have.

Your quest to justify Captain America and other peak humans doing stupid things is a waste of time in general. It's just (bad) writing.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Evolution acts on the population, not the individual. Only some i.e. mutants and mutant carriers have the personal genetic potential to be more than human.

Jean Grey has basically limitless personal genetic potential as an omega mutant.
Her parents had evolutionary potential, but their personal genetic potential, with regard to their physicality or abilities, was no different than any other ordinary human being.

And again all you're doing is making biased inference. You're seeing things because you want to see them, and giving them more meaning than they actually have.

Your quest to justify Captain America and other peak humans doing stupid things is a waste of time in general. It's just (bad) writing.

Well im going to think this over and get back to you on this.

P.S. If youy have the timle could you find that X-factor issue. I uesd to have it but I can't remember exactly what he said.

Well basically I think this really proves my point:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/j/jonesrick.htm

Jones then struck all Kree soldiers motionless in their tracks, and teleported all of the Avengers to the Kree home world, among other things. These fantastic mental feats, which the Supreme Intelligence claimed would one day be possible for all humanity,

As I said to you before the supreme intelligence believed that humans had more genetic potential. Eventhough evolution acts on the population, the supreme intellignce believed that all human beings would have this power.

Is there nay evidence that real humans can do this. He shoots, he scores and thats the game! Im sure you'll think of some excuse though.

http://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Gene-Popular-Science/dp/0192860925
http://www.amazon.com/Extended-Phenotype-Reach-Popular-Science/dp/0192880519/sr=1-1/qid=1164375269/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-5185412-3776966?ie=UTF8&s=books


these will explain it all to you Alfheim

Originally posted by inamilist
http://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Gene-Popular-Science/dp/0192860925
http://www.amazon.com/Extended-Phenotype-Reach-Popular-Science/dp/0192880519/sr=1-1/qid=1164375269/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-5185412-3776966?ie=UTF8&s=books


these will explain it all to you Alfheim

What so you think this explains that humans in the real world can have god like psionic powers?

Sadly, we don't have writers, that won't happen.

Again, your theory doesn't effect anything. It has never been even mentioned in comics, no street level has stated anything about it, and it is obvious that average MU human has nothing different from us.

Genetics have nothing to do with the fact that Daredevil blocks bullets or Shang Chi punches through reinforced steel, writing does.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Sadly, we don't have writers, that won't happen.

The only reson why it wont happen is because writers wont go that far into the future. At some point the MU universe will implode, just because the writers decide not to let it happen doesnt mean it wont happen eventually.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler

Again, your theory doesn't effect anything. It has never been even mentioned in comics, no street level has stated anything about it, and it is obvious that average MU human has nothing different from us.

Really?

1. MU humans were artfically created by aliens

2. The Supreme intelligence thinks that all human beings will have vast psionic powers and proves it by using the Destiny Force. Supreme intellignce has analysed MU human DNA and you haven't. I think we should SI's opinion.

3. Master Mold analyses human DNA and classifies them all as mutants ie the potential to have superhuman powers. Have you analysed MU human DNA?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler

Genetics have nothing to do with the fact that Daredevil blocks bullets or Shang Chi punches through reinforced steel, writing does.

That still does not change the fact that normal MU humans are vastly different from real humans.

But 99.99999% of them are not stronger or faster then we are. Especially now that mutant population is down to couple hundred.

There is always an special condition to someone having superpowers/skills in MU comics.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But 99.99999% of them are not stronger or faster then we are. Especially now that mutant population is down to couple hundred.


The point im making is that human beings have more potential than real humans. This is backed up by Master Mold and Supreme Intelligence, im supposed to belive them or you?

Originally posted by Alfheim
What so you think this explains that humans in the real world can have god like psionic powers?

no

I figured if you knew the first thing about genetics or evolution you might understand what everyone is telling you

not to mention, that 2 examples (mastermold and the Kree Supreme Intelligence), even if they did proove your point, which they don't, arent enough to go on by forum tradition.

Find a scan that says "Daredevil's superhuman powers are a direct result of his genetics BECAUSE he has artifically created genes"

When you find that, you have a valid theory.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
...the Celestials did not experiment on modern humans, they experimented on protohumans resulting in humans.
H'mm. Are they the monolith-builders from 2001: a space odyssey?

Originally posted by inamilist
no

So why bother showing me it then?

Originally posted by inamilist

I figured if you knew the first thing about genetics or evolution you might understand what everyone is telling you

What dont understand about what they are telling me?

Originally posted by inamilist

not to mention, that 2 examples (mastermold and the Kree Supreme Intelligence), even if they did proove your point, which they don't,


Why isn't it enough evidence. Both Supreme intelligence and Master Mold are experts on human DNA, so what you are telling me is that their opinions are not important?

Originally posted by inamilist

arent enough to go on by forum tradition.

Says who? Is it written down in black and white. Don't think so somehow.

Originally posted by inamilist

Find a scan that says "Daredevil's superhuman powers are a direct result of his genetics BECAUSE he has artifically created genes"

When you find that, you have a valid theory.

I dont have to do that. The fact of the matter that both the SI and MM think that ordinary humans have more potential then real world humans, end of story. Thats my point, ordinary humans have more potential in the MU regardless of what the writers do.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So why bother showing me it then?

What dont understand about what they are telling me?

You don't understand variation and mutation

in nature, mutation is VERY normal. Mutations in DNA are what cause phenotypical changes in an organism.

For the most part, these are very minute changes from one generation to the next. A finch will give birth to chicks that have some longer and some shorter beaks. A a genotypical level this differance is a mutation, at a phenotypical level, it is variance.

Now, marvel has taken the term "mutant" from evolution and applied it as a lebel to groups that have a VERY SPECIFIC mutation. In this regard, marvel does not use the correct definition of mutant, since the real differance between a mutation that gives you blue eyes or lazer eyes is phenotypical. At a genotypical level, this is a normal mutation (all be it one that wouldn't occur in the real world).

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why isn't it enough evidence. Both Supreme intelligence and Master Mold are experts on human DNA, so what you are telling me is that their opinions are not important?

No, its not that their opinions are unimportant, they are 100% incorrect, YOU are the one that is misinterpreting what they are saying.

Humans do have a greater potential for possessing superpowers in the Marvel Universe because writers have given them circumstances where they can obtain them. Specifically important is mutation.

Since there are genotypes that exist in the MU that do not exist in the real world (and arguably couldn't) it is possible that through variance and natural selection humans could eventually become very powerful.

THISIS NOT BECAUSE THE CELESTIALS MESSED WITH THE HUMANS.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Says who? Is it written down in black and white. Don't think so somehow.

Says who? That is the basic principal of what we do. When we look to comics to try and discern truths about it, the only way to do this is through what the writers give us.

Now, this is really important, because, unlike the real world, this means that there are not well defined forces in the universe that govern things, but the whim and imagination of people.

This means that, from time to time potentially confusing or contridictitory things will be written. When we look at this, we have to go by what is true most often and what fits best with the other "truths" previously established through this means.

The reason your theory doesn't hold up is through the application of a "Occams Razor" type mechanism, whereby, to satisfy what you are claiming brand new theories about the origins of characters and whatnot must be recreated. Using the explination of variation, mutation and a little bit of PIS it is simple to explain the statements of MasterMold and the Supreme Intelligence.

Because an explination is available that does not require invoking new unproven theories, we use it. Always go with the simplest explination.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont have to do that. The fact of the matter that both the SI and MM think that ordinary humans have more potential then real world humans, end of story.

They do, as a species, because they have differant genotypes in the population that are not available in the real world. This is not the celestials (I'm sure there are individual cases where it is, but you get the point I hope).

As individuals they do not, unless the writer gives them some extenuating circumstance where they get bitten by a radioactive spider. And this is not the Celestials unless there is an EXPLICIT explination for the hero's origin as being created by the Celestials.

This is why you need to understand more about evolution to make this debate.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats my point ordinary humans have more potential in the MU regardless of what the writers do.

One scan that has the words "Spider-Man's mutated DNA is the result of genetic predisposition built into the human genome by the Celestials" and you would proove your point.

Until then, you are just making things up.

Originally posted by inamilist
You don't understand variation and mutation

in nature, mutation is VERY normal. Mutations in DNA are what cause phenotypical changes in an organism.

For the most part, these are very minute changes from one generation to the next. A finch will give birth to chicks that have some longer and some shorter beaks. A a genotypical level this differance is a mutation, at a phenotypical level, it is variance.

Now, marvel has taken the term "mutant" from evolution and applied it as a lebel to groups that have a VERY SPECIFIC mutation. In this regard, marvel does not use the correct definition of mutant, since the real differance between a mutation that gives you blue eyes or lazer eyes is phenotypical. At a genotypical level, this is a normal mutation (all be it one that wouldn't occur in the real world).



No, its not that their opinions are unimportant, they are 100% incorrect, YOU are the one that is misinterpreting what they are saying.

Humans do have a greater potential for possessing superpowers in the Marvel Universe because writers have given them circumstances where they can obtain them. Specifically important is mutation.

Since there are genotypes that exist in the MU that do not exist in the real world (and arguably couldn't) it is possible that through variance and natural selection humans could eventually become very powerful.

THISIS NOT BECAUSE THE CELESTIALS MESSED WITH THE HUMANS.



Says who? That is the basic principal of what we do. When we look to comics to try and discern truths about it, the only way to do this is through what the writers give us.

Now, this is really important, because, unlike the real world, this means that there are not well defined forces in the universe that govern things, but the whim and imagination of people.

This means that, from time to time potentially confusing or contridictitory things will be written. When we look at this, we have to go by what is true most often and what fits best with the other "truths" previously established through this means.

The reason your theory doesn't hold up is through the application of a "Occams Razor" type mechanism, whereby, to satisfy what you are claiming brand new theories about the origins of characters and whatnot must be recreated. Using the explination of variation, mutation and a little bit of PIS it is simple to explain the statements of MasterMold and the Supreme Intelligence.

Because an explination is available that does not require invoking new unproven theories, we use it. Always go with the simplest explination.



They do, as a species, because they have differant genotypes in the population that are not available in the real world. This is not the celestials (I'm sure there are individual cases where it is, but you get the point I hope).

As individuals they do not, unless the writer gives them some extenuating circumstance where they get bitten by a radioactive spider. And this is not the Celestials unless there is an EXPLICIT explination for the hero's origin as being created by the Celestials.

This is why you need to understand more about evolution to make this debate.



One scan that has the words "Spider-Man's mutated DNA is the result of genetic predisposition built into the human genome by the Celestials" and you would proove your point.

Until then, you are just making things up.

You know what....read it and weep.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Inhumans


At the beginning of the Kree-Skrull War, millions of years ago in Earth time, the alien Kree established a station on the planet Uranus, a strategic position between the Kree and Skrull empires. Through their work at this station, they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien CELESTIALS.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/j/jonesrick.htm


Jones then struck all Kree soldiers motionless in their tracks, and teleported all of the Avengers to the Kree home world, among other things. These fantastic mental feats, which the Supreme Intelligence claimed would one day be possible for all humanity,

NEXT!

Originally posted by Alfheim
You know what....read it and weep.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Inhumans


why not explain it to me

Why are the inhumans important?

If they are the genetic creations of the Celestials they make complete sense in light of what I said. Especially given that they are an isolated genome

Not to mention that we aren't talking about the inhumans, we are talking about normal humans.....

Originally posted by Alfheim
At the beginning of the Kree-Skrull War, millions of years ago in Earth time, the alien Kree established a station on the planet Uranus, a strategic position between the Kree and Skrull empires. Through their work at this station, they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien CELESTIALS.

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/j/jonesrick.htm

ok. This is really good

This is 100% closer to proving your point than the other examples you showed.

Now, what were these genetic potentials?

Find something that says the X gene is a result of this potential, or something that says environmental factors can activate this in people like spiderman

If you have the proof I will support you

Originally posted by Alfheim
Jones then struck all Kree soldiers motionless in their tracks, and teleported all of the Avengers to the Kree home world, among other things. These fantastic mental feats, which the Supreme Intelligence claimed would one day be possible for all humanity,

Ok. Who is Jones? What is signifigant about his powers?

You need to show that whatever genotypical mutations that Jones has are a result of Celestial tinkering, otherwise its just general natural selection that causes the possibility for humans to be super

also, some issue numbers would be great. If you don't have the scans, I'll get them for you, then there will be agreement among people

Originally posted by Alfheim
NEXT!

next?

you have hardly prooven anything.

Originally posted by inamilist
why not explain it to me

Why are the inhumans important?

If they are the genetic creations of the Celestials they make complete sense in light of what I said. Especially given that they are an isolated genome

Not to mention that we aren't talking about the inhumans, we are talking about normal humans.....

No ,no, no, no. Read what it says. The article talks about what the Kree thought of HUMANS. The inhumans were created by the Kree.


Originally posted by inamilist

ok. This is really good

This is 100% closer to proving your point than the other examples you showed.

Now, what were these genetic potentials?

Find something that says the X gene is a result of this potential, or something that says environmental factors can activate this in people like spiderman

If you have the proof I will support you

You are wasting my time. Use some common sense what do you think the genetic potential is??? The Celestials created The Eternals and The Deviants on earth.

Futhermore read this...

http://www.marveldirectory.com/alienraces/skrull.htm

While the Skrulls were still in their early stages of evolutionary developments, the Celestials, a star-spanning race of genetic engineers, landed on Skrullos and selected a number of natives upon whom to experiment. With one sample group, the Celestials affected a series of genes related to longevity, and thereby created Skrullian equivalents to Earth's Eternals. With another group, the Celestials tested for genetic stability and diversity, and created the Skrullian counterparts to Earth's Deviants.(Note: According to Ghaur, priestlord of Earth's Deviants, a single Celestial, the socalled "Dreaming Celestial," was responsible for the creation of Earth's Deviants and was punished by other Celestials for doing so. It is as yet unknown whether the creation of the Skrullian Deviants was the work of the Dreaming Celestial alone, or of other Celestials as well or apart from him.) In a third group the Celestials implanted a gene series, which would permit rapid benevolent mutation under the right conditions when the species matured. This group, its genetic modifications latent, remained the Skrullian "Normals." After performing their genetic experiments, the Celestials left Skrullos.

Do I need to elaborate on this? Giving races superhuman powers is what Celestials do. Therefore common sense dictates that the potential that Celestials give a race is the ability to have superhuman powers. the X-factor gene gives people the ability to develop powers therefore the Celestials created it.


Originally posted by inamilist

Ok. Who is Jones? What is signifigant about his powers?

You need to show that whatever genotypical mutations that Jones has are a result of Celestial tinkering, otherwise its just general natural selection that causes the possibility for humans to be super

also, some issue numbers would be great. If you don't have the scans, I'll get them for you, then there will be agreement among people



next?

you have hardly prooven anything.

You 're wasting my time.

Originally posted by Alfheim
The point im making is that human beings have more potential than real humans. This is backed up by Master Mold and Supreme Intelligence, im supposed to belive them or you?

But it again doesn't have anything - at - all - to do with why streetlevelers to the stuff they do...doh

And since 99% of the humans in MU are like us, I don't see anything wrong in comparing real world things with them, like normal human strength, the normal human bone durability etc.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
But it again doesn't have anything - at - all - to do with why streetlevelers to the stuff they do...doh

And since 99% of the humans in MU are like us, I don't see anything wrong in comparing real world things with them, like normal human strength, the normal human bone durability etc.

I'll makes this real simple. Do MU humans have greater genetic potential than real humans? Yes or No.

Originally posted by Alfheim

You 're wasting my time.

I'm not wasting your time

I'm asking you to proove what you are saying and you either can't or won't.

The fact that you won't entertain the possibility of your theory being wrong makes it faith and therefore un-testable in your eyes.

If you think debate is a waste of time, don't share your thoughts

I will not continue this debate any further than this comment: You have not given adequate proof for your theory.

I hope, for your own sake, that further life experience will allow you to understand the problems with your logic, because you clearly are unwilling to see it when others point it out. Further, I hope you have a lower standard of proof for comics than for real life, because your attitude is 100% unscientific and irrational.

And for the record, I probably know VOLUMES more about genetic potential than you, please don't patronize me, some people study things outside of comicdom aswell.

Originally posted by inamilist
I'm not wasting your time

I'm asking you to proove what you are saying and you either can't or won't.

The fact that you won't entertain the possibility of your theory being wrong makes it faith and therefore un-testable in your eyes.

If you think debate is a waste of time, don't share your thoughts

I will not continue this debate any further than this comment: You have not given adequate proof for your theory.

I hope, for your own sake, that further life experience will allow you to understand the problems with your logic, because you clearly are unwilling to see it when others point it out. Further, I hope you have a lower standard of proof for comics than for real life, because your attitude is 100% unscientific and irrational.

And for the record, I probably know VOLUMES more about genetic potential than you, please don't patronize me, some people study things outside of comicdom aswell.

Well fine, now you have to go and get personal. I keep saying do human being in the MU have more genetic potential. Forget about street levelers and bad writers do human beings in the MU have more genetic potential?

The whole purpose of the Celestials is to go around to different alien races and give different alein races powers. they didn't just do it with humans they did it with the Skrulls as well. The shape shifting ability of the skrulls was created by the Celestials....read the bio!

You then have a bio which says in black and white that the genetic potential which the Kree sought after was made by the Celestials and then you turn aroud to me and say "what potential is this?"

Thats is a stupid question. It has nothing to do with how much you know about genetics. If you cant even see that the Celestials were responsible for creating the X-gene you lack common sense. I mean for crying out loud you even have a group of mutants called the Externals which is similar to a race The Celestials created The Eternals....do the math.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I'll makes this real simple. Do MU humans have greater genetic potential than real humans? Yes or No.

Since when do you know the measure of real humans genetic potential?

And it doesnt matter whether they have the potential imbued in them by the celestials, it doesnt mean you cant compare them.

Originally posted by "V"
Since when do you know the measure of real humans genetic potential?

And it doesnt matter whether they have the potential imbued in them by the celestials, it doesnt mean you cant compare them.

I think you need to read the posts again.....

Originally posted by Alfheim
I think you need to read the posts again.....

No I don't really feel the need to the previous pages full of essays which are meaningless in the scheme of things.

Simple question though,
How do you know the measure of real humans potential?
And the fact they are atleast 99% of the 616 earth and happen to look like us and act like us would make them very comparable IMO?

It doesnt matter how much you go on about how their DNA has been messed around with by the celestials etc. it doesnt mean they aren't comparable to real humans does it?

Originally posted by Alfheim
I'll makes this real simple. Do MU humans have greater genetic potential than real humans? Yes or No.

Different genetics, yes. Better potential, no.

Originally posted by "V"
No I don't really feel the need to the previous pages full of essays which are meaningless in the scheme of things.

Yeah you do.

Originally posted by "V"

Simple question though,
How do you know the measure of real humans potential?

Well im not an expert in genetics, but can you tell me of any scientists who belive that ALL human beings can eventually do this.

Jones then struck all Kree soldiers motionless in their tracks, and teleported all of the Avengers to the Kree home world, among other things.

Originally posted by "V"

And the fact they are atleast 99% of the 616 earth and happen to look like us and act like us would make them very comparable IMO?


No they are not the points is the 616 humans have far greater genetic potential. What happens to humans when they come in contact with radiation. Do they get powers? No they dont but you're still telling me that real humans are comparable.

Originally posted by "V"

It doesnt matter how much you go on about how their DNA has been messed around with by the celestials etc. it doesnt mean they aren't comparable to real humans does it?

what you fail to understand is. What do Celestiasl do? Celestials give alien races super powers. Celestials are resposnible for creating the X gene. Read the Skrull bio, the Celestials agve the Skrulls their shape shifting ability.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Different genetics, yes. Better potential, no.

Oh I see so in other words The Supreme Intelligence was wrong?

Heres another question. If the Celestials give superpowers to all the alien races they visit is it not a logical conclusion to think that they are responsible for creating the X-gene in humans when The Celestials created shapeshifting powers in the skrulls.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah you do.



Well im not an expert in genetics, but can you tell me of any scientists who belive that ALL human beings can eventually do this.

Jones then struck all Kree soldiers motionless in their tracks, and teleported all of the Avengers to the Kree home world, among other things.



No they are not the points is the 616 humans have far greater genetic potential. What happens to humans when they come in contact with radiation. Do they get powers? No they dont but you're still telling me that real humans are comparable.



what you fail to understand is. What do Celestiasl do? Celestials give alien races super powers. Celestials are resposnible for creating the X gene. Read the Skrull bio, the Celestials agve the Skrulls their shape shifting ability.

I agree they have greater potential, but you also fail to see that I'm not here to debate about the celestials play in all of it. Simply that they are still comparable.

If you wanted to you could compare a gorilla to a slug, both living and sentient. Just because they have totally different appearance and DNA whatever, doesnt mean you cannot compare them?

Real humans are definetly comparable, the ruling race on earth with similar technology etc. You can compare normal humans with 616 humans who are still essentially human. Just because they have a greater potential does not mean they arent at all comparable does it?

Originally posted by "V"
I agree they have greater potential, but you also fail to see that I'm not here to debate about the celestials play in all of it.



Well mate, this is my whole point.


Originally posted by "V"
Simply that they are still comparable.

If you wanted to you could compare a gorilla to a slug, both living and sentient. Just because they have totally different appearance and DNA whatever, doesnt mean you cannot compare them?

Real humans are definetly comparable, the ruling race on earth with similar technology etc. You can compare normal humans with 616 humans who are still essentially human. Just because they have a greater potential does not mean they arent at all comparable does it?

I dont think you can. If you look at the origin of the human race in the MU, it is completely different from the real world. 616 humans are a different kettle of fish all together.

What im refeing to is people who say that 616 humans cant do such and such because real humans cant do such and such. The arguement has no weight at all.

The origin is different. The end result is the same - ordinary humans. Homo sapiens superior as a subset phenotype have evolved from Homo sapiens sapiens naturally.

Humanity as a race is said to have the potential to supplant the Celestials, to supplant the Abstracts even, but that infers absolutely nothing about the somatic "genetic potential" of the average human in the MU.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The origin is different. The end result is the same - ordinary humans. Homo sapiens superior as a subset phenotype have evolved from Homo sapiens sapiens naturally.

Humanity as a race is said to have the potential to supplant the Celestials, to supplant the Abstracts even, but that infers absolutely nothing about the somatic "genetic potential" of the average human in the MU.

Well I tell you what lets analyse wat you have said.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
They don't. They're human. H. sapiens sapiens. Ordinary people. A small number have evolved into a new subspecies Homo sapiens superior. A small number have latent X-gene. A small number have been enhanced by external mutagens. But the ordinary MU or DCU human is still just human.

This statement implies that most humans are ordinary, but if they are why was this said?

Through their work at this station, they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien Celestials

If you make the statement such and such school has potential in physics does this mean most of them or a minority? This statement implies that most of them have potential. The sentence does not use the word some or a few it makes a statement about humans in general, therefore most human beings have greater genetic potential and this potential is the ability to have powers.

Furthermore evolution in this incidence does not really have to be a factor, because the Kree did not wait for human beings to evolve they experimented on them at the present time.

Im sure you will find some loop hole.

They experimented on primitive humans to create the Inhumans. From the same bio where you took that line - the Inhumans are a result of splicing Eternal and primitive human DNA. Without having spliced the Eternal DNA, the Inhumans would just be ordinary humans.

"this potential is the ability to have powers" Based on nothing whatsoever other than your own biased inference. Humanity as a whole has the genetic potential to supplant the Abstracts. That does not infer that the ordinary human has any personal potential for superhuman abilities. Keep stretching.

Numerous people have already commented on the why? with regard to characters doing stupid things, and it has nothing to do with the Celestials.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
They experimented on primitive humans to create the Inhumans. From the same bio where you took that line - the Inhumans are a result of splicing Eternal and primitive human DNA. Without having spliced the Eternal DNA, the Inhumans would just be ordinary humans.



Im aware of that. Does this statement include primitive humans?

Through their work at this station, they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien Celestials

Furthermore if primitive humans didn't have genetic potential why didn't they experiement on themselves. They experiemented on primitive humans because primitive humans have more genetic potential.

Ok lets see you get out of this one.

Okay I'll indulge you, if you indulge me.

Clarify the manner in which the Celestials experimented on protohumans to create humans. And for that matter the Kree in making the Inhumans. Did they use somatic cell gene therapy? Or did they modify them at the germline and embryonic level? Find that out. In order to have lasting effects in creating the Inhumans, they would have needed to do the latter. In which case they would be referring to germline potential.

From this we can infer:
Ordinary humans have the germline potential to create more powerful offspring e.g. the Inhumans, e.g. Christopher and Katherine Anne Summers, two ordinary humans, gave birth to Cyclops, Havok and Vulcan.

Ordinary humans do not have the somatic potential to be superhuman, without some form of external mutagen modifying them in some manner.

Regardless of which tell me what lasting "superhuman genetic potential" did they instil into the ordinary humans. Did they sow the X-gene into the human populace. Or did they put some ill-defined genetic potential for superhuman abilities. If the latter, for what superhuman abilities. If the latter show conclusive proof.

And what of the DCU where people also do ludicrous things beyond their power.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Okay I'll indulge you, if you indulge me.

Clarify the manner in which the Celestials experimented on protohumans to create humans. And for that matter the Kree in making the Inhumans. Did they use somatic cell gene therapy? Or did they modify them at the germline and embryonic level? Find that out. In order to have lasting effects in creating the Inhumans, they would have needed to do the latter. In which case they would be referring to germline potential.

I dont have to find anything out. The information you have been given implies that all humans have superhuman genetic potential. You just want to into further detail because you probably know there isn't more detail.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

From this we can infer:
Ordinary humans have the germline potential to create more powerful offspring e.g. the Inhumans, e.g. Christopher and Katherine Anne Summers, two ordinary humans, gave birth to Cyclops, Havok and Vulcan.

Ordinary humans do not have the somatic potential to be superhuman, without some form of external mutagen modifying them in some manner.

That doesn't contradict anything I have been saying. My point is that MU humans have more genetic potential than real humans. Even if you experiment on humans you're not goin to get a real human who did what Rick Jones did.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Regardless of which tell me what lasting "superhuman genetic potential" did they instil into the ordinary humans. Did they sow the X-gene into the human populace. Or did they put some ill-defined genetic potential for superhuman abilities.

Of course they created the X-gene! The Celestials are responsible for creating superhumans in both the Skrulls and the humans. The whole reason why you have Skrull shapeshifters is because of The Celestials and you are asking me wether they created the X-gene. Furthermore you have a race of mutants called the Externals which is similar name to The Eternals. That is not conclusive evidence but all the evidence put together points in that direction.

This statement you have not addressed and you are starting your old stuff again. What does this statement imply. Answer the question!

Through their work at this station, they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien Celestials

Is this not a statement about humans in general which includes ordinary primitive man?

If this statement includes ordinary humans can we conclude that ordinary human have greater genetic potential?

If the whole point of these experimentations is to create superhumans does this not imply that the potential they are refering to is superhuman potential?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

If the latter, for what superhuman abilities.

See what I mean, even if I can prove its all about superhuman ability I have to prove what superhuman ability, when at that point the discussion should have ended.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

If the latter show conclusive proof.

The evidence that you have so far indicates more likely than not that normal humans have superhuman genetic potential. I dont know exactly what The Celestials did to human beinsg but we have to debate with the information that we have available and if the information that we have avilable points to the direction of ordinary humans having superhumans powers than logic dictates that is what is probably correct.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

And what of the DCU where people also do ludicrous things beyond their power.

This is pure xmarksthespot material. If your are getting backed into a corner go off on a tangent. What is the title of this thread? Is it DC or MU? So why on earth are we talking about DC for?

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont have to find anything out. The information you have been given implies that all humans have superhuman genetic potential. You just want to into further detail because you probably know there isn't more detail.

That doesn't contradict anything I have been saying. My point is that MU humans have more genetic potential than real humans. Even if you experiment on humans you're not goin to get a real human who did what Rick Jones did.

Of course they created the X-gene! The Celestials are responsible for creating superhumans in both the Skrulls and the humans. The whole reason why you have Skrull shapeshifters is because of The Celestials and you are asking me wether they created the X-gene. Furthermore you have a race of mutants called the Externals which is similar name to The Eternals. That is not conclusive evidence but all the evidence put together points in that direction.

This statement you have not addressed and you are starting your old stuff again. What does this statement imply. Answer the question!

Through their work at this station, they discovered that sentient life on nearby Earth had genetic potential invested in it by the alien Celestials

Is this not a statement about humans in general which includes ordinary primitive man?

If this statement includes ordinary humans can we conclude that ordinary human have greater genetic potential?

If the whole point of these experimentations is to create superhumans does this not imply that the potential they are refering to is superhuman potential?

See what I mean, even if I can prove its all about superhuman ability I have to prove what superhuman ability, when at that point the discussion should have ended.

The evidence that you have so far indicates more likely than not that normal humans have superhuman genetic potential. I dont know exactly what The Celestials did to human beinsg but we have to debate with the information that we have available and if the information that we have avilable points to the direction of ordinary humans having superhumans powers than logic dictates that is what is probably correct.

This is pure xmarksthespot material. If your are getting backed into a corner go off on a tangent. What is the title of this thread? Is it DC or MU? So why on earth are we talking about DC for? And this is pure Alfheim material. Seeing things that are not there and making biased inference. There is no implication. You're stringing together two unrelated statements you found and giving them meanings they don't have. It's like saying I found a candlestick in the garden and a dagger in the library therefore Miss Scarlet killed the butler and buried the body under Town Hall.

The genetic potential referred to by the Kree is for future generations to be more powerful than the current, with regard to the Inhumans. Unless one takes the discredited Lamarckian view of genetics.

So you're saying they put the X-gene into humans specifically and it didn't just evolve. Did they specifically put it into Apocalypse and Selene the oldest known Homo sapiens superior? Keep grasping those straws.

The word External sounds like Eternal is not conclusive evidence because it's not evidence of anything at all. Keep stretching.

The statement you keep repeating over and over refers to humanity as a whole not each specific individual. And it refers to germline potential since the Kree wanted to create permanent effects that would be passed on generationally.

I referred to DC because the characters there do the same thing. Why? Because writers make them. Not because of some hidden genetic potential in the DCU humans. And likewise not becaused of some hidden genetic potential in the MU humans.

Essentially this still applies:
Originally posted by DigiMark007
This is ridiculous, and the 2nd time you've tried to mince words to further some random theory.

Except replace "2nd" with 3rd or 4th if not more.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
And this is pure Alfheim material. Seeing things that are not there and making biased inference. There is no implication. You're stringing together two unrelated statements you found and giving them meanings they don't have. It's like saying I found a candlestick in the garden and a dagger in the library therefore Miss Scarlet killed the butler and buried the body under Town Hall.

Whatever.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The genetic potential referred to by the Kree is for future generations to be more powerful than the current, with regard to the Inhumans. Unless one takes the discredited Lamarckian view of genetics.

Is this potential therefore the ability to have superhuman powers?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

So you're saying they put the X-gene into humans specifically and it didn't just evolve.

Wether it evolved or not is irrelevant they put it there in the first place.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Did they specifically put it into Apocalypse and Selene the oldest known Homo sapiens superior? Keep grasping those straws.

Oh so both Selene and Apoc existed before The Celestials came to earth?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The word External sounds like Eternal is not conclusive evidence because it's not evidence of anything at all. Keep stretching.

If you say so.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The statement you keep repeating over and over refers to humanity as a whole not each specific individual.

No, but does it refer to normal human beings as well???

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

And it refers to germline potential since the Kree wanted to create permanent effects that would be passed on generationally.

The point you are making is irrelevant the fact of the matter is that they had superhuman potential and the people they experiemented on were ordinary. Are you telling me that real humans beings can evolve to have powers like Black Bolt and Rick Jones, maybe Gorgon but not like alot of inhumans.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

I referred to DC because the characters there do the same thing. Why? Because writers make them. Not because of some hidden genetic potential in the DCU humans. And likewise not becaused of some hidden genetic potential in the MU humans.

The title says MU not Dc stay on topic.

Yeah but he also said that as well.


Originally posted by DigiMark007


And yes, I was cautiously agreeing with you,

So if he agreed with me. Why did he say that this was the second time?

Yeah but he also said that as well.


Originally posted by DigiMark007
So I agreed, but conditioned it with the opinion that it was nothing new.

So basically you are just taking what you like and ignoring the rest....AGAIN. Read the damn thing properly.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Whatever. Excellent rebuttal. I commend you.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Is this potential therefore the ability to have superhuman powers?No. Such abilities if not inborn due to something like the X-gene are granted by external stimuli.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Wether it evolved or not is irrelevant they put it there in the first place.Did they now? Show me where it says the X-gene was put into the human genome as opposed to Homo sapiens superior evolving naturally.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Oh so both Selene and Apoc existed before The Celestials came to earth?No they were born long after. That's the point. The first occurrence of the X-gene was long after the Celestials intervened, evolving naturally.
Originally posted by Alfheim
If you say so.Oh silly me. Not taking the fact that two words sound the same as some amazing smoking bullet for some hairbrained theory.
Originally posted by Alfheim
No, but does it refer to normal human beings as well???It refers to humanity. Some have the potential to give birth to powerful offsping who will in turn give birth to powerful offspring. Over many many many generations humanity is intended to supplant the abstracts. That does not mean all have this genetic potential, many will have very ordinary offspring. That does not mean any ordinary human being is anything more than an ordinary human being.
Originally posted by Alfheim
The point you are making is irrelevant the fact of the matter is that they had superhuman potential and the people they experiemented on were ordinary. Are you telling me that real humans beings can evolve to have powers like Black Bolt and Rick Jones, maybe Gorgon but not like alot of inhumans.Afaik Rick Jones has only had superpowers for brief stints in his history. Humans were not directly modified into Inhumans by somatic gene therapy. Blackbolt was born an Inhuman. They are a result of genetic splicing at a germline/embryonic level.

The overarching point however is that ordinary humans in either the MU or DCU have no more personal propensity for enhanced physicality than real world humans. Mary Jane isn't going to become Spider-Woman of her own accord.
Originally posted by Alfheim
The title says MU not Dc stay on topic.The same things occur in DCU. No Celestials. Go figure. Because they happen because of writers.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but he also said that as well. With regard to Captain America. His first statement is still completely relevant to what you do, threads that try to twist simple statements into something that they were never intended to be, because you want to hype Captain America et al.

Keep grasping at those straws, but know that to everyone else they're as worthless as... straw.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

No. Such abilities if not inborn due to something like the X-gene are granted by external stimuli.

So let me get this straight, the potential they were refering to is not about superhuman powers, but they still decided to experiment on humans and not themselves in order to gain superhuman powers?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Did they now? Show me where it says the X-gene was put into the human genome as opposed to Homo sapiens superior evolving naturally.

Look im not going other that again I have already explained this. If you want to ignore it fine.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

No they were born long after. That's the point. The first occurrence of the X-gene was long after the Celestials intervened, evolving naturally.

Not going to go over this point again.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Some have the potential to give birth to powerful offsping who will in turn give birth to powerful offspring.

So real human beings can do this can they?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Over many many many generations humanity is intended to supplant the abstracts. That does not mean all have this genetic potential, many will have very ordinary offspring. That does not mean any ordinary human being is anything more than an ordinary human being.

I cant be bothered to go over this again either


Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Afaik Rick Jones has only had superpowers for brief stints in his history. Humans were not directly modified into Inhumans by somatic gene therapy. Blackbolt was born an Inhuman. They are a result of genetic splicing at a germline/embryonic level.

Answer the question can you prove that human beings in the real world can have superhuman powers like Rick Jones? Im not going to go over the point with Black Bolt again....im getting tired now.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

The overarching point however is that ordinary humans in either the MU or DCU have no more personal propensity for enhanced physicality than real world humans. Mary Jane isn't going to become Spider-Woman of her own accord.
The same things occur in DCU. No Celestials. Go figure. Because they happen because of writers.


Stop talking to me about DCU. I said.....MU....not DCU. The history for mankind in the DCU is different they have White Martians

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

With regard to Captain America. His first statement is still completely relevant to what you do, threads that try to twist simple statements into something that they were never intended to be, because you want to hype Captain America et al.

But you're going to ignore the fact that he agreed with me about Captain America? Thats irrelevant?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Keep grasping at those straws, but know that to everyone else they're as worthless as... straw.

Sure make it personal.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So let me get this straight, the potential they were refering to is not about superhuman powers, but they still decided to experiment on humans and not themselves in order to gain superhuman powers?

Look im not going other that again I have already explained this. If you want to ignore it fine.

Not going to go over this point again.

So real human beings can do this can they?

I cant be bothered to go over this again either

Answer the question can you prove that human beings in the real world can have superhuman powers like Rick Jones? Im not going to go over the point with Black Bolt again....im getting tired now.

Stop talking to me about DCU. I said.....MU....not DCU. The history for mankind in the DCU is different they have White Martians

But you're going to ignore the fact that he agreed with me about Captain America? Thats irrelevant?

Sure make it personal. Not personal. Just fact. You bore me with your incessant harping about some massive underlying reason that writers make characters do things or give characters powers. The powers given to people in comics is due to writers. The things that characters do in comics is due to writers. None of them care in the least about a statement that someone has written on Wikipedia about the Inhumans.

Average ordinary humans in comics have no great amount of "superhuman potential" they're auxiliary characters. You have no point. You're just grasping at nonexistent straws.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Not personal. Just fact. You bore me with your incessant harping about some massive underlying reason that writers make characters do things or give characters powers. The powers given to people in comics is due to writers. The things that characters do in comics is due to writers. None of them care in the least about a statement that someone has written on Wikipedia about the Inhumans.

*sigh* You missed my point entirely. There is no point in elaborating you will just ignore it and waste my time.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot

Average ordinary humans in comics have no great amount of "superhuman potential" they're auxiliary characters. You have no point. You're just grasping at nonexistent straws.

*shrug* Ok fine.