Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

dunno if this is done already...

so.. whaddaya think?

Well, it depends on Anakin. When Obi-Wan is close by, Skywalkers raw power and anger arent displayed. This is why it wasnt until Dooku took out Kenobi in ROTS that Anakin had a nut and pwned him. So if the sith take out Anakin first, and then Obi-Wan I think they should win with relative ease. If Dooku or Maul takes out Kenobi then Anakin goes crazy and probably wins

Obi-Wan easily walks all over Maul. Anakin holds off Dooku for a min or two until Maul gets owned...then:

*Replay ROTS Anakin/ Obi vs. Dooku fight*

Or if for some reason you didn't see ROTS, Obi-Wan goes down, and then Anakin eventually beats Dooku.

So, Anakin.

Anakin beats Dooku (like he did in ROTS)
Kenobi beats Maul


OR

Dooku pwns Kenobi (like in ROTS but even more easily since Anakin isn't helping Kenobi)
Anakin beats Maul but doesn't pwn him

Kenobi dies first, then Anakin gets pwnd by Dooku and Maul together.



But I say the Jedi cause ot's most likely that Anakin and Dooku fight each otehr since they hate each other and Kenobi and Maul will fight cause Maul wants revenge.

Anakin wipes out Maul in twenty or thirty seconds while Obi-Wan is fighting against Dooku. Then Anakin comes and destroys Tyrannus.

OR

Obi-Wan wipes out Maul and Anakin pwns Dooku.

The sith have no chance. Even if it is Dooku/OB1...i think it would take Dooku longer to kill ob1 than it would for Anakin to kill maul, so then as Ob1's body is falling, Anakin swoops in to kill dooku with he justly increased rage.

Other way around...Anakin pwns Dooku again, and helps OB1 finish off Maul, provided he just doesn't curbstomp him by himself.

Your kidding, right? All Dooku would have to do is chuck Kenobi acorss the room with the Force like he did in ROTS. So the fight starts, Dooku doesn't even have to ignite his saber, he just picks Kenobi up imediately, knocks him out, then he and Maul together pwn Anakin, cause I'm guessing Maul can hold off Anakin for at least 5 seconds one on one.

youre kidding right? Since when has dooku been one NOT to toy with an oppenent? Its all speculation how he'd attack. We dont have a setting, how it starts, anything...Anakin could just choke Maul out and then go pwn Dooku...works both ways.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
youre kidding right? Since when has dooku been one NOT to toy with an oppenent? Its all speculation how he'd attack. We dont have a setting, how it starts, anything...Anakin could just choke Maul out and then go pwn Dooku...works both ways.
Okay, let me make myself clear: If Dooku didn't toy with Kenobi he'd beat him far before Anakin beats Maul. And if Anakin tried to choke Maul, which he wouldn't since Jedi don't use Force Choke, Maul wouldn't just go down, he's still be able to atatck Skywalker, thus breaking Skywalker's Force connection to the Choke.

riigghhht... setting. forgot.

in kamino, where obi-wan and jango fought.

Really, since when has Obi-Wan's style been about fast kills? It's completely defensive. He'd have to wait for Maul to make a big enough mistake and then cut him down. Meanwhile, Anakin has to contend with Dooku. If Dooku were using his force powers instead of just being a cardboard character-type fighter a la RotS, he could give Skywalker fits. Dooku could throw down with Yoda both in lightsaber combat and using the Force. Anakin couldn't overcome Obi-Wan even at the height of his rage.

Let's put this further into perspective:

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4124/000obithrow9wk1wyaq9.gif

Basically, Dooku throws Obi-Wan around like a ragdoll once he decides to put the Force-hurt down. I could see if Anakin masterfully outdueled Dooku and deflected a concentrated force assault, but that never happened. Anakin was unorthodox and strong-armed him, netting the win. Somehow, that translates into Anakin > Dooku in all situations (How, I'll never know). By this logic, TPM Obi-Wan > Maul in all situations. It's ridiculous to assume that in all scenarios, Anakin will beat Dooku, especially considering that Dooku's force power is more than a match for his.

I'll put forward that Obi-Wan is kept busy with Maul while Dooku turns Anakin into a pretzel. Then, the two sith lords have Obi-Wan Kabob.



Considering that Maul could down a bonafide Jedi master who had far more expertise in the Force and more training with a saber than Anakin, and the fact that Maul nearly downed Sidious in a mock battle, I'd call this a silly assumption. Obi-Wan would be utterly tooled by Dooku long before Anakin battered down Maul. Maul has matching rage and even more expertise with a blade. He's a very capable fighter and it's a pity he got so little showtime.



Dooku "toying" with an opponent is a plot device; it's not a factor in a hypothetical versus match. We assume, for the purpose of NOT getting caught up in personal catches, that everyone here isn't emotionally conflicted or otherwise distracted, playing, or not taking the fight seriously enough. Otherwise, why bother?

And I'd love to see Anakin attempt to force choke Maul. That'd be hilarious, right up until the sith lord bisects his upstart ass.



Dooku throws Obi-Wan's body over the side. Maul leads Anakin around, trading blows with him until Dooku shocks the boy with sith lightning. Then he cuts him in two. End of match.

Oh Janus, how you quickly put display the feats and abilities of only those who you wish to win. First off you say Obi-Wan would have to wait on Maul to make a mistake because Obi-Wan knows Form III. Oh wait, he also knows Form IV as shown in the Phantom Meance and he was going toe to toe with Maul then. Now he has 13 years to perfect Form III and even has 15+ years of Form IV mastery at hand.

And here you are showing how easily Dooku tossed aside Obi-Wan. But what's to stop Anakin or Obi-Wan on doing that to Dooku? Heck Obi-Wan blasted Grievous back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XqKvKUTElA

And you say that Anakin is no match against Dooku in terms of the Force even though Obi-Wan and Anakin seemed evenly matched when it came to their Force Push contest. You seem to undermind the abilities of Anakin and Obi-Wan.

And you were just saying that Anakin a 24 year old couldn't contend to Mace Windu in the Best Fencer theard because Mace had far more skills, mastery of lightsaber, and power in the Force but yet you say the 20-28 Maul would take down Obi-Wan.

WTF?

Obi-Wan stopped using Ataru because he realized it's inherent weaknesses, especially against Maul. I mean, Qui-Gon was a Form IV master, and he lost his ass to Maul. I don't see Obi-Wan suddenly using the form to go offensive and go completely against the fighting style he practices for most of the series and many years in-universe against someone who skewered his master who used the same style.

That just doesn't follow.

Soresu is a defensive form. Look at Anakin versus Obi-Wan; it's the longest fight in the entire series. The style takes some time, even if the opponent were balls-to-the-wall angry and stupid as Anakin.

Maul is not that foolish.



Did you read my post?

Force users can BLOCK force powers!

Grievous is NOT a Force user!

I just showed you an animated gif of Obi-Wan getting the ragdoll treatment, and it ain't the first time, either. And we see clearly in RotS that Anakin can't overpower Obi-Wan using the force, even WITh his rage in full effect. So it's a logical deduction to conclude that Dooku is mightier than either in Force powers.



I can't believe you're this dense.

Let me reiterate this again:

Dooku overpowered Obi-Wan numerous times using the Force.

Anakin can't overpower Obi-Wan using the Force despite being more pissed off than a blonde trying to solve a rubic cube.

Hence, Dooku is likely much stronger in the Force than either of them. That is, unless you actually have a compelling counter argument. I don't think you do.

Was that clear enough for you?



The first part is evident: Mace is far more practiced in the art of the blade than Anakin. Many times over. More styles, more force powers, more time. Period. It's evident.

Second part is assinine. I made no such claim. Maul may not be able to take down Obi-Wan with his Soresu mastery, but at the same time Obi-wan isn't likely to blitz the sith lord and get a quick victory either.

Reading comprehension is your friend.

Again for reasons posted on other threads, I believe the Count and Maul would win this battle.




I feel Obi Wan will defeat Maul, but with difficulty. The Count was shown easily flinging Kenobi around, he can do so again. If he isolates Anakin, I think he can win the battle if he decides to use the force properly in combination with taunts as he did on board the Invisible hand before Sidious' interjection.

Sith duo win.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I think he can win the battle if he decides to use the force properly in combination with taunts as he did on board the Invisible hand before Sidious' interjection.

What do you mean "Sidious' interjection"? In the movie, Sidious didn't even intervene with a comment until Dooku had already been defeated, and lost both of his hands.

Excuse me? But please, Count Dooku cannot just go out in the battlefield and do a Kick-Choke-Throw on the duo like he did in the Invisible Hand. Advent and I debated this fiercely , and you cannot just have Dooku jump between them in exact position and do what he did in ROTS. And please, he flung Obi-Wan only once.

And Anakin can own Maul. He killed Dooku in like what, excuse me, how much: thirty seconds !!! LMAO, Anakin can finish off Maul at the maximum of maybe 20 seconds . And don't give me BS that Dooku pwns Kenobi while Ani fights maul!!!1111 During my debate with Advent, we came to the consensus of forty seconds. Forty > Twenty, and eventually Dooku loses like in ROTS.

Now just to say this again: ROTS Duel can happen again. But Anakin will kill of Dooku like he did on the Invisible Hand. People claim that only in that scenario that Skywalker won, however I say not. When Dooku was kicked onto the lower platform, he was revitalized via Force. So when Anakin came before him with his lightsaber, he was ready to duel to the death. And that's exactly what will happen. Remember the duel with Yoda? Dooku only used the Force in the beginning and then went on all out lightsaber. Anakin can easily contend or block Dooku's Force moves and he has the speed to quickly engage in a saber fight before it becomes a Force duel.

I concede Dooku > Anakin in terms of the Force, but Dooku cannot just pull out the trump card everytime. In ROTS, he was able to do the Kick-Choke-Throw because of how things ended up laying in front of him. Perfect positioning. If this is the reason why people say Dooku >>> Kenobi, BULLSHIT! Then Dooku could have easily done the same to Anakin. There is no difference because Anakin uses a different form. Nothing, both were on his sides and both were in range of the attack. But Kenobi got the treatment not Anakin. By this logic, Dooku > Anakin, which is simply WRONG !!!

In this duel, Anakin either kills of Dooku and then helps Obi wtf pwn Maul. OR Anakin lays waste to Maul while Obi-Wan holds off Dooku and then the duo find a way to pull it off like they did in Revenge of the Sith.

General Kenobi off.....

Neither Anakin or Kenobi will be wiping out Maul. Yes, Obi Wan is all defensive and waits for mistakes, but Darth Maul doesn't make mistakes. But if I were the siths I'd have Maul confront Anakin. He can handle Anakins raw power better than Dooku could. And as we all know Dooku wipes out Kenobi w/ the force and helps Maul wtf pwn Skywalker.

Umm yes Anakin can. Anakin demolished Dooku. Just because of that duel, I would give Dooku maybe twenty more seconds of survival. But Maul can't survive against Anakin very long. Anakin strength just slashes through Maul's saber like Kenobi did in TPM. The Jedi definately take this.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Umm yes Anakin can. Anakin demolished Dooku. Just because of that duel, I would give Dooku maybe twenty more seconds of survival. But Maul can't survive against Anakin very long. Anakin strength just slashes through Maul's saber like Kenobi did in TPM. The Jedi definately take this.

Anakin pwned Dooku badly because he got pissed off. Now as zephiel has clearly pointed out in a previous thread, Anakin would not have become so angry if Dooku's mind games had kept working. The only reason they didnt was because Sidious decided to interfere. Now last time I checked Sidious has no part in this fight, therefore Dooku's taunts and mind games will kepp Anakin temper at bay.

If Maul fights Obi-Wan it will definatly be a long fight. Kenobi is a master of Soresu, which in case you havent noticed is a defencive form. This generally means that Kenobi has to wait for an opening or mistake from Maul before he can capitalise and take the victory. I dont doubt that he can do this and win, its just that it will take an extremely long time to do.
While that is happening Dooku will beat Anakin, just as he was going to do aboard the Invisible Hand before Sidious decided to interfere. If the battle plays out like this, the sith win, albeit with some difficulty.

If Dooku fights Kenobi, well, to put it simply Kenobi gets pwned. We saw what happened when Dooku finally decided to get seriois in ROTS and eliminate Kenobi, he was out within seconds. Now if Dooku was fighting his hardest from the beginning, there is no reason Dooku couldnt simply do the same thing, only much quicker. Maul will lose to Anakin fairly quickly, although I doubt before Dooku beats Kenobi. Then the sith will double team and beat Skywalker. Again the sith win.

One of the main reasons Dooku lost to Skywalker was because of his lightsaber form:Makashi. It implies finesse, weak strikes and swipes. Where as Anakin's lightsaber form: Djem So implies the exact opposite, using strong concentrated attacks which counters Makashi. Strong>Weak common sense. Also it could be noted Anakin was faster and stronger physically. Dooku was very old and was being weakened and gettting tired very quickly. Anakin's power had infact doubled as he told Dooku.

Now having said all of that Darth Maul is stronger than Dooku physically. I would argue Maul is stronger than Anakin too. He's more acrobatic in his fights and also implies martial arts. Mauls lightsaber form:Juyo is like a mixture of Ataru's acrobaticness and Djem's raw power. How can Anakin overpower and tire Maul when Maul is if not physically eqaul, better and he usually duels two jedis at a time. So Maul can clearly keep up with Anakin.

Can you please point out to me where in the movie, not the novel, where Palpatine makes any intervention between the two? As far as I recall (and I just watched the scene to make sure), he doesn't say shit except for "Yeah!", and makes little grunts when Kenobi is taken out. The only time he says anything relative to the duel, again in the movie (highest form of canon), is "Good, Anakin, good. Haha. Kill him. Kill him now".

Of course, at which point Dooku had already been on his knees, defeated - severed hands and all - and at Skywalker's mercy. And by the way, Anakin was still described as virtually beating the shit out of Dooku prior to being kicked, after Kenobi is downed, and only lost his edge during the provocation. And after that, since it wasn't shown in the movie (and there's no back-and-forth between other events, it's an uncut duel), the part about Anakin realizing his "fear can be used as a weapon" comes into play seemingly immediately after; he presses the offensive against Dooku, and plainly outmaneuvers him in a mere 12 seconds following their first time engaging blades after the ridicule made by the Count.

Perhaps I may be missing something, but I really didn't hear or see Sidious say anything. And as previously mentioned, it was an uncut duel and after the taunt, it clearly shows Palpatine doing jack except sitting. No words are uttered, nothing. Just to note, by the way, the movie overrides anything and everything that isn't G-level (includes novels, books, even sites) - even if it were multiple sources stating the same thing, it's still wrong. But then again, I'm not firmly behind the position that he didn't say anything (for a reason), merely questioning the actuality of him doing such, as I didn't note him to.

Well at least you agree with me that Anakin > Dooku. Now Maul might be stronger than Anakin in physical strength. But in terms of a lightsaber duel, Anakin draws more kinetic strength against Maul's Juyo. And Anakin's skill with Djem So is simply better than Maul. He can take out Dooku, who's stronger than Maul. While Maul is good and I rate him slightly better than Depa Billaba, I doubt he take out Skywalker for a long ride.

Hey Advent, are we on the same team for once? LOL

Rampant, what about the part that states through his taunts his anger grew and despite that, he was in complete control and his mind was clear as a bell, to win, all he had to do was decide...and he did. ???

We've already been through this. Dooku may have got to him by talking shit, but he ultimately got to himself more cause.......HE'S DEAD...WITHOUT A HEAD...DOESN'T NEED A PILLOW ON HIS BED...HE SHOULD OF FLED...HEAR WHAT I SAID?...HE'LL NEVER WED...HE BOYFRIENDS JED AND ZED...thats all i got...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Rampant, what about the part that states through his taunts his anger grew and despite that, he was in complete control and his mind was clear as a bell, to win, all he had to do was decide...and he did. ???

It doesnt say that does it (I dunno I dont have access to the novel). It states that Dooku's taunts caused Anakin to lose cntrol of his emotions, therefore was struggling to stay alive. After that Sidious intervened and Anakins mind became clear etc. Ony after Sidious decided to interfere did Anakin start pwning.



Lol - I think.

as much as you and the dooku lovers hate to hear it, Sidious intervening didn't happen in the movie, isn't canon and therefore didn't happen. I'll find the quote that describes Anakin's mind state. Advent has it and we've both posted it, it's just a matter of finding it.

edit

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
as much as you and the dooku lovers hate to hear it, Sidious intervening didn't happen in the movie, isn't canon and therefore didn't happen. I'll find the quote that describes Anakin's mind state. Advent has it and we've both posted it, it's just a matter of finding it.

Because it didnt show it doesnt mean it didnt happen. Its not contradicting the movie, merely adding on to it. Therefore it is canon, at least thats how I though it worked. Otherwise anything we didnt see on the screen didnt happen. When the scene cuts to Palpatine does that mean Dooku and Anakin stop fighting because we dont see them? The answer is no, definatly not. See what im saying.

no, that'd be a pretty important or significant part of the plot. Why show him saying "Yeah!" but not the turning point of the battle? See what I'm saying?

I dont know, you could well be right. I just thought that because its not contradicting anything in the movie it is canon.

Perhaps GL ddnt add it because he is obsessed with making Dooku as insignificant as possible. I mean he gets a 2 minute duel at the start of the movie. Pathetic. He only gets about 6 lines as well. Bloody Lucas doesnt know good acting when he sees it.

And yet even with a taunt, Dooku has failed. You saw the ROTS duel. Dooku cannot keep taunting Anakin all day. The only possible to do so is in a saber lock which won't happen much due to Skywalker continue to thrash Dooku back.



WTF? Yes, maybe Dooku can be able to taunt Anakin to death, but hell, he's not going to. As you saw in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin's lightsaber power was able to finish off Tyrannus. In a fight between Dooku and Anakin, Dooku is not going to be able to continuously taunt Anakin. In addition, Dooku will start to get arrogant, believing his taunts are working, and this also play a demise to Tyrannus.



All right. Anakin will get angry in a duel against Dooku. His hard feelings toward Tyrannus and the fact that he's facing someone powerful make him tap into his rage. And even if you say Sidious interfereed, Dooku can never beat Anakin.



Did you watch Obi-Wan vs. Grievous? Even if you add the 26 seconds Grievous took to actually engage Kenobi, within a minute Obi-Wan had eliminated two of the General's blades. So if you minus the 26 seconds, Obi-Wan took out two of Grievous's blades within 34 second! Plus, he had the Force. Now I rank Maul on par with Grievous. You saw how easily an enraged Padawan Kenobi cut Maul's saber in half. I hardly doubt that a Padwan Kenobi > ROTS Jedi Master Kenobi.

And please, Anakin was pushing Obi-Wan back. Anakin's power with his Djem So literally stampeded Obi-Wan's Soresu. Dooku's Makashi doesn't generate enough power to push Kenobi's Soresu. Obi-Wan is definately up there to contend against Tyrannus in a battle of lightsabers.

And the Ataru Obi-Wan uses in sparingly but is operated in openings which require offense.



Hard pressed? Please. I rank Maul on par with GG. Maul was having a good amount of difficulty from Padawan Kenobi. ROTS Kenobi has much more experience with Soresu and he is a good deal stronger with the Force. Maul's double-bladed lightsaber will be cut down by Kenobi in good time and then with one saber he'll last a little bit longer but will die. Again, Kenobi's Soresu doesn't mean he creates extremely long battles. You saw how he was pwning Grievous in ROTS, cutting his blades easily.



I just have a comment on this. I don't doubt that Dooku's Dun Moch is powerful, but that comment in the novelization should be an exaggeration. Seriously, a simple taunt destroys Anakin's focus? Bullshit to me. I mean, then Dooku's Dun Moch could hurt Yoda as well if Dooku put a lot of effort into it. The novelization is full of hyperboles and exaggerations, and I believe that sentence you provided is one. Nevertheless, I will accept it.




Umm....what? Duh, Dooku is greater than AOTC Obi-Wan. Do you know how powerful Kenobi increased over the war. Dooku's not going to face another AOTC Obi-Wan, he's facing someone who is a good two levels higher. Please, Dooku is not that superior in terms of the blade. Did you see how fast Obi-Wan's Soresu was against Anakin's? I'm not saying Dooku's Makashi isn't greater, but if Obi-Wan vs. Dooku were having a lightsaber fight, it wouldn't at all end quickly. Again, in ROTS, that isn't an accurate description of Dooku will due to Kenobi in a fight against him. It was due to positioning and how things ended up that Dooku knocked Kenobi out.

Perhaps if its so complicated, my basic point is that Dooku > Obi-Wan, but Kenobi will last a good solid minute {and more probably, not that much though} against Dooku.

So Anakin can finish Maul in a good half minute. His simple skill, speed, and strength will overcome the Zabrak Sith Lord. Then the duel above the Invisible Hand happens again where Dooku gets massacred.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I dont know, you could well be right. I just thought that because its not contradicting anything in the movie it is canon.

Perhaps GL ddnt add it because he is obsessed with making Dooku as insignificant as possible. I mean he gets a 2 minute duel at the start of the movie. Pathetic. He only gets about 6 lines as well. Bloody Lucas doesnt know good acting when he sees it.

lol...yea he does....thats why he just killed Dooku right off the bat, just so we wouldnt have to hear him, LOL!

And Rampant, as for your so called sorry excuse for Sidious's intervention, please read Advent's post several posts up.

Originally posted by Advent
What do you mean "Sidious' interjection"? In the movie, Sidious didn't even intervene with a comment until Dooku had already been defeated, and lost both of his hands.

Not according to the novelization. The novelizations, as I am sure you are aware (considering you and Escape used it alot to support your argument) , are considered an elaboration upon the movies. In the novelization, Dooku was taunting and defeating Anakin before Palpatine "betrayed" him and said the "magic words," so to speak.



LMAO!!! Seeing how this IS ROTS, I believe I'll trust the novelization over your petty opinion. Provide an argument. Show me that Kenobi can avoid the attack, or Dooku's force powers when he has clearly not demonstrated it in the novel. The movie makes it look even worse. All Dooku had to do was wave his hand and Kenobi was out cold. Kthx.



Easily might I add.


Show me the argument, why it is thirty seconds. Is it pull numbers out of our ass day? I believe it is.



I marvel at your proof.



Well I am glad you came to a consensus... Prove up. Are you basing this soley on the fact he practices Soresu?

the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall

Didn't stop him from being sent flying when Dooku decided to send a "whipcrack of power" on Kenobi.



From faulty premises comes faulty conclusions, as they say.



Your entire argument is faulty. Based on the novelization.

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required
Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round
each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.
Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

This is after Anakin decided to jump down and meet him in combat. All it took was a "simple taunt." The count "met the boy's charge easily." He was having "fun," clearly indicating he was toying with Anakin. Provided that Palpatine is no longer their to return the battle back to a "brute force" match (as is implied in a neutral arena, usually), Dooku would have clearly won.

Fact: Anakin's recklessness is what continually makes him lose against more level headed opponents(on the level of the Count and Kenobi). Anakin may be more powerful, but pure power does not mean "better" when mind games and psychological advantages are put into context.




He claimed (obviously a claim) their knowledge in the force was "equal," so he decides to enter a duel. Does Anakin's level in the force match Yoda? I'll let you answer that, please, sensible replies this time. Just because Yoda could withstand Dooku's force abilities, does not mean Anakin can contend or block all of Dooku's force moves. Your point is moot.



Even if Anakin has the speed to engage Dooku, the novelization depicts Dooku as using taunts and mingames to suppress Anakin's power, or otherwise distract him. He lulls his opponent into a comprising position via mindgames and then finishes them. It was only by "Palpatine's interference" that Dooku lost.



I did not say that force powers were the sole reason that Dooku wins. To claim such would be piss poor logic. Notice how I stated Force powers compounded with taunts and mindgames would be his key to victory? What is up with your reading comprehension.




Sadly, your claims are complete bullshit.

the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall

If Kenobi decides to go suicidal and attack Dooku while Anakin fights Maul, chances are he'd get stepped on. There was no circumstance, no unfavourable conditions. Dooku decided to get Kenobi out of the battle so he was starting to do it



Inasmuch as he wanted to test Anakin, not Kenobi, I doubt that he would have sent a "whipcrack of that power" to hurl and possibly disable Anakin.


Other than that, Obi Wan would not "wtfpwn" Maul if he decided to attack him. Despite either opponent, there would be some fatigue involved.

Maul was stated to be the "greatest Sith Assassin," able to defeat the entirety of the black sun, on his own. He was able to withstand force lighting and continue to easily killing a nightsister. He defeated Qui Gon Jin, Obi Wan's master, and lost due only to his cockiness and arrogance. The battle would be fierce, and Kenobi would be tired if he won, enough so that the Count would not even need to worry about disabling him.

Obviously, but then again, I don't believe I was basing what I said off the novelization, now was I?



True; although, when they step bounds and depict things clearly not shown in the movie, they are trumped on that case (and that case alone, as discrepancies are dealt with case-by-case).

For example,

"While effortlessly deflecting a rain of blue-streaking cuts from Kenobi, Dooku felt the Force shove the situation table away from the wall and send it hurtling toward his back with astonishing speed; he barely managed to lift himself enough that he could backroll over it instead of having it shatter his spine. " (Revenge of the Sith, Chp. 3)

They can only elaborate so much, they can't make up things that never actually occurred, or if they do, it cannot cross bounds into what the movie is displaying. The above is an example of such a thing that "crosses over", and isn't shown in the movie. So, that's "N" canon.

An example of the opposite would be like Obi-Wan and Yoda's conversation about the so called "B" Team (Agen, Saesee, Fisto), It wasn't shown in the movie as far as I recall, but it doesn't contradict anything and is so considered to be "C" canon.

Sidious' urging Anakin to blood lust was not depicted in the highest form of canon, in fact, no relative dialogue even happened in the duel that was uncut (i.e. no interruptions, no skipping from scene to scene), and we clearly see (or rather don't see) Palpatine not uttering a word other than "Yeah!", and grunting as previously mentioned in my former post.

So, it would seem in this case that the movie > novel regarding Sidious talking shit to Dooku and Anakin. In other words, it didn't happen in the movie, where we actually saw each of the people inclusive of the line(s). This would mean it's an apparent contradiction, and thusly "N" canon.

Of course, I may be missing something in the movie, but from what I see, he clearly says and does nothing. Moreover, in the movie, Count Dooku doesn't show any signs of acknowledgment in regards to what Sidious says in the novel, he only appears shocked by Sidious' imperative sentence at the end.



As I'm sure you're already aware, the novelizations don't hold superiority for continuity over the movies. Those "magic words" were seemingly never spoken, and the only "betrayal" had happened when Dooku was already at Skywalker's mercy.



Yes, I use it to support my arguments, as does Escape. However, I only recall us using lines that were shown in the movie, and just elaborated upon (thoughts are thoughts, poetically describing actions are just that, and actions are actions). I'm fairly certain we only use things that aren't ostensibly contradicting; whilst Sidious talking wasn't depicted in the actual movie, things like Anakin gaining strength, Dooku tooling Kenobi, and so on (things I personally use) were.

Actually, that was an iffy explanation at best, but I hope you got the general point.

And that takes care of that.

I don't agree with all that you said. Nothing in that scene which Stover says contradicts the general intent of George Lucas, that Anakin, in terms of "power" is better than Dooku.

The novel does well to elaborate this fact, describing Anakin as a "thermonuclear furnace."

However, Dooku has the psychological advantage and superiour "mental disposition," this is fact. Lucas even agrees with this view. It was Georgies intent that Anakin is reckless, losing many of his battles by this issue alone.

I don't think we can "pick and chose" unless its an outright contradiction, defying completely Lucas' intent, such as say the author stating that "Dooku was defeating Anakin by sheer power alone, losing only by a fluke."

From where I see it, trust me I am trying to be as unbiased as possible, Palpatine's words were an elaboration to Lucas' script, not defying Lucas' intent. There is no reason for it to be excluded from the overall g canon novelization.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I don't agree with all that you said. Nothing which Stover says contradicts the general intent of George Lucas, that Anakin, in terms of "power" is better than Dooku.

The novel does well to elaborate this fact, describing Anakin as a "thermonuclear furnace."

However, Dooku has the psychological advantage and superiour "mental disposition," this is fact. Lucas even agrees with this view. It was Georgies intent that Anakin is reckless, losing many of his battles by this issue alone.

I don't think we can "pick and chose" unless its an outright contradiction, defying completely Lucas' intent, such as say the author stating that "Dooku was defeating Anakin by sheer power alone, losing only by a fluke.

Zephiel, are we then to say - regarding Palpatine:

"And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole in the Force."

As well as:

"Dooku could not argue. Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself."

And, finally:

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsman that our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

This is, after all, an elaboration on the movie itself, by your definition. Neither of these things are said or apparent in the movie (much like your quote), but they are there in the novel, verbatim as I have said. If your example applies, then so do these three.

Originally posted by Gideon
Zephiel, are we then to say - regarding Palpatine:

"And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness. A black hole in the Force."

As well as:

"Dooku could not argue. Not only had the Dark Lord introduced Dooku to realms of power beyond his most spectacular fantasies, but Sidious was also a political manipulator so subtle that his abilities might be considered to dwarf even the power of the dark side itself."

And, finally:

Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsman that our Order has ever produced. By himself. Even both of us together wouldn't have a chance."

This is, after all, an elaboration on the movie itself, by your definition. Neither of these things are said or apparent in the movie (much like your quote), but they are there in the novel, verbatim as I have said. If your example applies, then so do these three.

Abosolutely. They work. The first two of these quotes are in Dooku's PoV, it makes sense considering he worshipped the ground Sidious walked on.

The third one is in Obi Wan's PoV. Again, nothing wrong with these. None of these outright contradicts George's intent. If they did, then I would dismiss it as a contradiction to the movie.

Guess you missed the part where it said "seen through the eyes of the dark side itself." That wasn't just Dooku, pal.



Then, Yoda agreed, that the two of them together had no chance of defeating Sidious in single combat.

Does it directly contradict Lucas' intent for ROTS? Ask yourself that. If it does, then it cannot be counted along with the novel as g canon.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Does it directly contradict Lucas' intent for ROTS? Ask yourself that. If it does, then it cannot be counted along with the novel as canon.

You tell me. Lucas's "intent for RotS" was to show that Anakin trumped Dooku through superior power and ability. He all but confirms this in the multiple sources I have listed for you - and the excerpts I showed you.

That, and the line was not said in the movie. As Advent has proven, a contradiction of the movie makes that specific part become non canon. Much like how Yoda disarming Sidious in the script was never put into the movie, nor in the novelization. Thus it isn't canon. Lucas is the topmost part of this 'hierarchy', followed by the movies. Then the scripts and novelization are on equal footing below the movies.

In this case, the line was not made. Thus that part of the novelization is non-canon.

And, to answer your question, I highly doubt he'd have thought that Obi-Wan and Yoda together couldn't match Sidious in single combat. The point is to prove that not everything from the novelization (though a canon source) can be considered canon.

As to the two first quotes regarding Sidious, Lucas has called Palpatine "the ultimate evil in Star Wars", implying he is the most powerful incarnation of evil seen, and the only irredeemable one. So, it is quite possible that it doesn't defy his intent.

Personally, though, while I consider Sidious to be the ultimate manipulator, nothing can dwarf the Force - light side or dark side.

What's exactly stopping Dooku from force choking Obi-Wan and disabling him right off the bat?

And there's little evidence to say that Anakin can cope with a double team from two experienced Sith Lords, let a lone win against.

Vote for the Sith duo.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
What's exactly stopping Dooku from force choking Obi-Wan and disabling him right off the bat?

And there's little evidence to say that Anakin can cope with a double team from two experience Sith Lords, let a lone win against.

Vote for the Sith duo.

Agreed.

Call me crazy, but I don't forsee even RotS Obi-Wan just taking three swings and downing Maul - who is a much more capable warrior and who was "one of the deadliest apprentices ever" according to one of the visual guides. Obi-Wan's defensive form and superior mental tactics would likely allow him to defeat Maul in the end - but if he does win (which I am still not 100% convinced) it wouldn't be extremely easily.

Likewise, Count Dooku's Force powers are too strong for Obi-Wan. But it also depends on the set up. The point is, Anakin will defeat Count Dooku in a lightsaber fight - and I believe in a shorter amount of time it would take for Obi-Wan to defeat Maul. If that happens, Anakin and Obi-Wan team up to annihilate Maul.

But, Dooku wouldn't likely let that happen, so he'd likely put Obi-Wan out of the fight, then he and Maul annihilate Anakin.

Originally posted by Gideon
In this case, the line was not made. Thus that part of the novelization is non-canon.



So it has turned to this... a debate on the nature of what can or cannot be considered canon from the novelization

Well, I am grouping this as your opinion on what is or is not canon. I feel, as long as it does not defy Lucas' intent, that Anakin is more "powerful" (take whatever that means however you will), then it does not contradict the movie's and can be considered G canon. In my opinion, evertyhing put into context (including the psychological), from the novel which is in line with Lucas' intent, I am of the position that Dooku is "better". Again, this includes psychological and mental advantages, not purely physical . I am dealing with power from a different "perspective," mental finesse if you will.

Lucas' intent is aligned with the novelists interpretation on the matter, hence it is canon. Again, unless there is a source like Wallace that confirms that what I said is not true, then I am as entitled to believe it as you are entitled to believe what you hold.

Originally posted by zephiel7
So it has turned to this... a debate on the nature of what can or cannot be considered canon from the novelization

Well, I am grouping this as your opinion on what is or is not canon. I feel, as long as it does not defy Lucas' intent, that Anakin is more "powerful" (take whatever that means however you will), then it does not contradict the movie's and can be considered G canon. In my opinion, evertyhing put into context (including the psychological), from the novel which is in line with Lucas' intent, I am of the position that Dooku is "better". Again, this includes psychological and mental advantages, not purely physical . I am dealing with power from a different "perspective," mental finesse if you will.

Lucas' intent is aligned with the novelists interpretation on the matter, hence it is canon. Again, unless there is a source like Wallace that confirms that what I said is not true, then I am as entitled to believe it as you are entitled to believe what you hold.

Here we have the problem.

Something that contradicts George Lucas or the movies - be it the script, novelization, or EU works - is not completely canon. By that I mean, the specific part in which the contradiction was made, and all events or situations dependant on that contradiction are not canon.

By that, I do not mean slightly altered dialogue, such as: "Dooku is old" as opposed to "Count Dooku was eighty-three standard years of age", but rather major storyline events.

Furthermore, aside from interviews or the commentary, "Lucas's intent" as you call it - isn't exactly public knowledge. He did not say "I want Anakin to be more powerful - but lose due to Dooku's psychological edge" nor is that implied in any article of information that I am aware of.

The line was spoken in the novelization but not the movie. The battle itself was not intercut by any other scene - the line simply did not make its way into the movie. Hence why the novelization is based off of (but not verbatim) the screenplay. And, even then, the final screenplay is not always used as directors and writers have creative influence and can alter the process of the movie, and the storyline.

Because the line was not spoken - and George Lucas credits Anakin's victory to superior power - Palpatine's intervention is not canon. Thus, it is pointless to argue. Count Dooku, obviously, had the overall better state of mind, but that did not help him in the fight.

"Expanding upon the movie" could be construed as something along the lines of Palpatine's audio recording of his duel with Mace Windu (Padme says to Bail that Sidious "has been presenting evidence of the Jedi's betrayal all afternoon", though - even then - the novel's presentation of that isn't canon.

The movie showed this:

Anakin and Obi-Wan forced Dooku on the defensive (unlike their previous battle in Attack of the Clones) off the bat. He Force pushes Obi-Wan out of the fight, and continues on with Anakin - who forces him up the stairs. Whether this was a sign of desperation or simply a smart move on Dooku's part, it is unknown, but it is clear that he can't handle the two of them for a prolonged period of time. His bodyguards fire upon Obi-Wan, who bisects them both. He briefly duels with Obi-Wan and Anakin before kicking Anakin into a wall and putting Obi-Wan out of the fight for good. Anakin seemingly gets pissed off and kicks Dooku off of the balcony, and forces him back. They end up in a saber lock, where Dooku taunts him. Anakin shoves him and forces him back to rest in front of Sidious - where he grabs Dooku's arms and amputates them.

Sidious did not interfere.

If it comes to sabers, Anakin will beat him. Dooku's only chance is that he takes him out with the Force (he is superior to Anakin there). But there isn't anything to suggest that he will or that he won't. Dooku prefers lightsaber combat to Force usage, as does Anakin. His arrogance also plays a part - will he use the Force against Anakin before its too late, or what?

Where are you getting this from? The fact that the line did not make it's way to the movie, does not mean it should be excluded from G canon. As long as it does not interfere with the intent of the movie (that "Anakin is more 'powerful' " what basis are you using to confirm that your position on "what is or is not canon" is any more right than mine?

I know Lucas' intent with his characters, which is really common knowledge here. Anakin is reckless, emotionally unstable; he was defeated by Obi Wan because of his psychological weakness. Dooku possesses the psychological advantage; he is a cool and even headed fencer.

Hence the novelization is working into Lucas' "grand" () design when he wrote that passage, not contradicting it.

I am not contradicting George's intent when I say Dooku has the psychogical advantage, as he, Lee, and Wallace view the book as G canon. Unless it is stated that lines that did not make its way into the movie, but were approved into book, and which are also in line with Lucas' intent, are non canon, I don't see what makes what you say any more correct than what I say.

The novels are considered G canon, hence any lines in the book that are not explicitly placed in the movie but which implies Lucas' concept with the characters in the movies, should also be considered G canon.

This fight is simple: if it's obi-wan versus maul and anakin versus dooku, anakin beats dooku, and after that, he sees obi-wan wining against maul (since he uses soreshu his fight should be longer)

Or, if it's maul against anakin and obi-wan versus count dooku, well, anakin beats maul (maul is agressive, he would probably turn on anakin's agressivity), and them he sees dooku beating or killing obi-wan. Them, he takes the hell of dooku.

In both cases, i think our light side pair wins.

Again, I reiterate, something that directly contradicts the movies or George Lucas in a manner that it significantly changes the event (as in, Skywalker winning due to a fluke and not his skill as Lucas had the scene written out; or Palpatine engineering the fight to allow Anakin win - despite Lucas stating that the outcome was to test which of the two was stronger), then it is not canon.

By virtue of potential, physical strength, and talent with a blade - as well as his overall stamina and raw power - Anakin is more powerful than Count Dooku. I do not doubt that Dooku has the edge in Force combat, but as we've seen, there is a point with Anakin that such an advantage does not matter - Dooku was overwhelmed in that latter portion of that fight. As Advent once said "if he could've, he would've", which seems to make remarkable sense.

Sidious's interference would imply that the fight was deliberately engineered to allow Anakin to win, which, I have proven, is not the case.



You know Lucas's "intent" with his characters? Aside from the overall bits that he gave us - as well as observations (our fallible ones) from the movies, Lucas is not that specific when it comes to every single character, so I don't know how you can claim to know his intent with Anakin as far as combat as concerned. We do know that he had Anakin win due to superior power in regards to Count Dooku - which, again, is final. They both fought on even terms, and only one walked out alive.

One could make an argument that Dooku's arrogance allowed that to happen. If you wish to include Anakin's mental instability in the duel, then why not include Dooku's equally significant character flaw - he is an egotistical duelist. That could, just as well, spell his undoing, and prevent him from using a Force attack, even when he has the chance to perform one.



As I said, it is. Palpatine interfering would imply that the fight was deliberately engineered for only Anakin to survive. This is not the case.



The overall book is G-canon. There are specific parts of it that are not canon. Again, if this is the case, Obi-Wan + Yoda don't have a chance against Sidious in single combat; Sidious is beyond power; his skills as a manipulator dwarf the power of the dark side; Yoda lost the fight before he began, and got wtfpwned in combat.

You can't pick and choose.

Absolute nonsense. Dooku can force choke Obi-Wan and toss him into a wall, or wherever, knocking him out cold, in no time at all. You can time it yourself, took less than 4 seconds.

Kenobi sure hasn't demonstrated any sort of formidable resistance against force telekenisis from Dooku.

Dooku visibly did not try this tactic on Anakin, possibly because he felt he could destroy him in lightsaber dueling or because Anakin's force strength is much greater than Kenobi's. Either explanation works fine.

Guys, one question: why everyone says that dooku>anakin in force power? Because i remember Sidious talking wth grievous, and when he asked about dooku's death, sidious said that "I will soon have a new aprentice, younger and more powerful". So, he is implying that Anakin is already more powerful then Dooku. In fact, if you read the plot script, it says that obi-wan and dooku was getting tired but anakin wasn't during their fight, what i think points out to greater force power (more power, more endurance).

So, why would Dooku's powers be bigger then Anakin's ones? Also, anakin said to dooku something like "My powers double since the last time we fought".

I think that Anakin>Dooku in powers, that's why he didn't use the force against anakin, because he could not KO him as he did with Obi-Wan...

Page 145 of the Complete Visual Dictionary confirms Dooku fought for his life-in the movie- and was outmatched-in the movie- and that Palpatine promised to intervene if anakin got the upperhand and was told to fight to his bst-in the movie.

Anakin>Dooku, case closed

Cardboard cut should read "cardboard cut out" or even "cookie cut."

I wasn't thinking it "out."

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Page 145 of the Complete Visual Dictionary confirms Dooku fought for his life-in the movie- and was outmatched-in the movie- and that Palpatine promised to intervene if anakin got the upperhand and was told to fight to his bst-in the movie.

Anakin>Dooku, case closed

G canon novelization and the movie's show Dooku winning and Anakin's victory more a fluke than anything.

Case closed.

....what? The moment the novelization has Anakin get into action, Dooku is dead. Remember that? "Dooku is already dead, the rest are details."

Yep, the case is indeed closed.

First off, I'm not going to argue Anakin against you. You and whoever else is with you can think what you like. A good majority of people here can concede that Dooku > Anakin only in Force powers. In a lightsaber duel and in an overall duel, it's been proven by the movies, by the novelization, and by other canon sources that Anakin > Dooku. I'm going to argue for Obi-Wan here. Apparenty you think that if Dooku and Obi-Wan were to enter a nuetral arena one on one that Tyrannus pwns Kenobi with a Force Push. I say bullshit! Here's why:



First off, the novelization is not considered as true when it defies parts of the movies itself (which are, by the way, the highest canon). With this said,

1.) The quote says with a single flick, Kenobi was sent flying. A flick as you is a "A light quick blow, jerk, or touch" {Source: American Heritage Dictionary}. Now if you watch the Duel on the Invisible Hand, there's a clear scene showing Dooku driving his hand forth for a Force Push that sends Kenobi flying twenty feet away. Now, how it does work out if a flick does the same level of damage as a direct Force Push aimed right at a target? It doesn't. The flick, as I have mentioned before, is an exaggeration. It is basically saying then a flung out hand driving forward with energy of Dooku's should be able to send Kenobi away like how a quarterback throws a football into the end zone. Which of course, is ridiculous and already incorrect as Dooku did an aimed energy thrown hand that sent Kenobi flying, not a flick.

2.) Kenobi has no defense whatsoever for that attack. He had no clue that Dooku was suddenly going 100% all out and dropping the shit. Kenobi didn't know that Dooku going all out and so when he attacks, he doesn't realize that Tyrannus was going to do something powerful. That's why he got pwned by the combo. As you know, Kenobi and Skywalker both started using their forms on Dooku and Tyrannus being threatened, Pushes Kenobi away. Obi-Wan doesn't think that Dooku is going all out and is still thinking that the Sith Lord's arrogance would still make him toy around. But that counter for Kenobi, and that's why he was knocked out cold.

As you can see, Dooku dropping the shit is able to take down Obi-Wan. However, he harldy pwns and finishes off in thirteen seconds as you may think. Dooku's Force moves are going to be very difficult for Anakin, but Kenobi will engage in a lightsaber duel and it is here that Dooku will do a combo and use that trump card of his to finish off Obi-Wan. However, it's hardly 13 seconds. More like forty. I mean, seriously, Dooku spent longer than 13 seconds against other Jedi who are worse than Kenobi. It's stupid that Dooku can take out Kenobi that fast in ROTS without there being explanation.

And for clarification, don't make up shit. I have never said Anakin takes out Maul in ten seconds. Please go back to the beginning of the thread where I said Skywalker kills Maul in half a minute. Kenobi can easily stall Dooku long enough for Anakin to save his ass.

I don't have time to argue longer, but perhaps you should learn that Kenobi is not <<<<< Dooku as you portray it to be.

I think it's cute, Zephiel, how you completely ignored my post, and then how you decided to base Anakin's victory off of a "fluke".

So, let's go through some facts for you.

Fact: Anakin > Dooku in power. Lucas confirmed it.

Fact: When Anakin "was in the proper state of mind", he absolutely crushed Dooku. The fight wasn't "epic", it wasn't "close". Anakin simply tore Dooku's shit up, and WTFpwned him in single combat. The same novelization that you take to be the sheer gospel said that Dooku was "already dead", even before Anakin had done the deed.

Fact: Movies and/or George Lucas > the novelization in the food chain of canon status. Palpatine didn't give a remark to Anakin. That part of the book is not valid.

Fact: Palpatine referred to Anakin as "more powerful" than Dooku. He used them as pawns for the past ten years, so, I guess, he'd probably be the only in-universe source that could accurately gauge power, also - he was watching the entire fight.

Fact: Palpatine orchestrated the fight to see which one was stronger. He did not have a bias for Anakin - and he did not engineer the fight to give Anakin the advantage. Hell, he flat out told Anakin in Rise of Darth Vader that if Count Dooku had been stronger, he'd have let Anakin die, and Dooku would be at the Emperor's right hand.

Question: So, how could Anakin have won by a "fluke"?

Originally posted by Generic Hero
What's exactly stopping Dooku from force choking Obi-Wan and disabling him right off the bat?

And there's little evidence to say that Anakin can cope with a double team from two experienced Sith Lords, let a lone win against.

Vote for the Sith duo.

What's exactly stopping Anakin from viciously attacking Doooku and killing him off the bat?

And there's little evidence that Dooku can disable Kenobi right off the bat due to his "whipcrack of power" since it doesn't make sense then with the movies and considering Obi-Wan's powers.

Vote for the Jedi duo.

When has Anakin ever demonstrated the ability to destroy an opponent on Dooku's level in moments, in a saber duel? I know Dooku can choke Kenobi and toss him aside on his first visible attempt (In a grand total of four seconds) without any notable strain. What is stopping him from doing this again?

Anakin took a grand total of 0:40-1:00 to defeat Dooku in a saber duel.



In the film, Dooku took a grand total of four seconds to force choke Kenobi and disable him. Perhaps you missed this?

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4124/000obithrow9wk1wyaq9.gif

If it comes to sabers, Generic, it is quite likely that Dooku won't have the chance to disable him with the Force. Anakin is faster and stronger than him, and his stamina is above and beyond Dooku's own - Dooku couldn't leave himself open long enough for such an attack.

Though, likely, the Sith duo win. Maul is seriously underestimated. Dooku + Maul = dead Ani-poo.

Won't have a chance to disable Obi-Wan? All he needs to do is put his arm out and choke. Obi-Wan's gone. If Maul's there to stall Anakin for a brief period of time, then it'll probably take less time because Dooku won't have to worry about disabling Anakin.

Dooku is a greater force wielder than Kenobi. From what I've seen, and read, it was Anakin's aggressiveness that made it difficult for Dooku to pull this off against him. An entirely different situation with Kenobi, who can't play the aggressive game.

I think Maul is the odd one out....Obi-wan or Anakin could handle him well enough

Obviously even Anakin can't handle the physical intensity of Maul and refinement of technique that Dooku has to offer at the same time, but if Obi Wan can hold either one off for a decent amount of time, the Jedi win. Basically, if Kenobi puts up a good defence and doesn't get chucked again, the Jedi win.

How about Maul vs. Obi while Ani hanles Dooku?

That would fit into the category of Dooku not chucking Obi Wan...

Also, teamwork could turn out to be huge if they switch off opponents instead of two separate straightforward duels. Anakin could jump in if Obi needed help if Obi was put against Dooku.

What do you think I'm arguing with Zephiel for? I have talked about this. Please refer above.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Won't have a chance to disable Obi-Wan? All he needs to do is put his arm out and choke. Obi-Wan's gone. If Maul's there to stall Anakin for a brief period of time, then it'll probably take less time because Dooku won't have to worry about disabling Anakin.

Dooku is a greater force wielder than Kenobi. From what I've seen, and read, it was Anakin's aggressiveness that made it difficult for Dooku to pull this off against him. An entirely different situation with Kenobi, who can't play the aggressive game.

I was referring to Anakin, sorry, not Obi.

Can you say Escape that Kenobi can last an okay amount of time against Dooku? Or do you too agree with Zephiel and Generic?

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Can you say Escape that Kenobi can last an okay amount of time against Dooku? Or do you too agree with Zephiel and Generic?

That depends.

Obi-Wan has a zero-point-zero chance of winning. He'd be facing an opponent who is the more skilled swordsman, and a much more powerful master of the Force.

In a lightsaber fight? Yes, Obi-Wan does have the capability to last quite a while. His lightsaber defense is superior to anyone in the movies. It is his offense that doesn't quite measure up. He'd have to stay on the defensive the entire time, as Dooku would tear his shit up if he ever tried to offensively take the Sith Lord out of the game.

I think RotS essentially showed that Count Dooku couldn't take Anakin and Obi-Wan in a prolonged lightsaber duel, hence why he used the Force on two occasions to desperately try to separate the two, and why he had his battle droids fire upon Obi-Wan.

However, Count Dooku is easily (no exaggeration) capable of disabling Obi-Wan with the Force. If he abandons his arrogance (which we can all agree that it isn't bound to happen in the initial part of the fight) he could use the Force, which Obi-Wan, sadly, has zero-point-zero chance of stopping.

Sabers? Yes.

Force? Hell no to the power of ten.

All right, that's a nice response. I agree with most of the lightsaber info you posted. In terms of the Force, I would agree that Dooku is easily better than Obi-Wan, however I would say Kenobi's Force powers grant him a litte more time. And yes, Dooku's arrogance is a main part of the Sith Lord. Dooku not at all having arrogance (in the initial part of the duel and whatsoever) is like Anakin not at all using his anger/rage.

Anyway, this is why in a overall duel, I have been arguing my ass off against you, Advent, Planet, and Zephiel saying that Kenobi cannot get pwned by the Force in 13 seconds.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
All right, that's a nice response. I agree with most of the lightsaber info you posted. In terms of the Force, I would agree that Dooku is easily better than Obi-Wan, however I would say Kenobi's Force powers grant him a litte more time. And yes, Dooku's arrogance is a main part of the Sith Lord. Dooku not at all having arrogance (in the initial part of the duel and whatsoever) is like Anakin not at all using his anger/rage.

Anyway, this is why in a overall duel, I have been arguing my ass off against you, Advent, Planet, and Zephiel saying that Kenobi cannot get pwned by the Force in 13 seconds.

No. Kenobi can get pwned with the Force in about four seconds. It's Dooku's arrogance that would prevent that from happening. Not anything special from Obi-Wan.

But Obi-Wan trained The Chosen One, that's got to count for something!

Originally posted by The Planet
But Obi-Wan trained The Chosen One, that's got to count for something!

Do I even need to dignify this? You know better.

Just how so? Because when he was caught by surprise , we was taken out in eight seconds or so? Seriously man, people undermine Kenobi in the Force. He slammed Grievous (who was able to dodge Force attacks) into a steel bar which was fifty feet into the air, hundred feet across. He brought down a ton of metal on the Magnaguards. I know that Dooku is definately better, but to say he pwns in 4 seconds is ridiculous. Dooku pwns a chum like some other Jedi in 4 seconds. It's not logical that he does the same with Kenobi.

In Kenobi's defence, Dooku was only able to break his defence while in the middle of a parry, to assume that he'd be able to pwn him with the force while Kenobi is perfectly prepared is pretty asinine, like General Kenobi said, he was caught off guard.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Just how so? Because when he was caught by surprise , we was taken out in eight seconds or so? Seriously man, people undermine Kenobi in the Force. He slammed Grievous (who was able to dodge Force attacks) into a steel bar which was fifty feet into the air, hundred feet across. He brought down a ton of metal on the Magnaguards. I know that Dooku is definately better, but to say he pwns in 4 seconds is ridiculous. Dooku pwns a chum like some other Jedi in 4 seconds. It's not logical that he does the same with Kenobi.

Dude, he ripped the ****ing restraints off of the metal. He didn't pick the damn thing up and throw it. It's bullshit like that that makes me lose my patience with you on this issue. Grievous dodged Force attacks in CW, not in RotS.

And "caught off guard"? Bullshit. Anyone who lands a move on a Jedi or a Sith, technically, caught them off guard. Mace caught Sidious off guard when he kicked him in the face, Sidious caught Yoda off guard when he blasted him with lightning, Yoda caught Sidious off guard when he Force pushed him.

Dude, he caught him in the middle of a parry, it's not like Dooku just walked up to him and broke through his force defences, Dooku initiated the attack just as Kenobi was blocking a blow with his saber.

*stiffles laughter*

No evidence for this at all.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
*stiffles laughter*

No evidence for this at all.

Dooku initiated the force attack while Kenobi was blocking a saber blow. He wasn't expecting Dooku to just pull off an impromptu force attack, he was caught by surprise.

Originally posted by The Planet
Dude, he caught him in the middle of a parry, it's not like Dooku just walked up to him and broke through his force defences, Dooku initiated the attack just as Kenobi was blocking a blow with his saber.

Which does what? If anything, that has no bearing on the fight considering Obi-Wan's Force "defense" doesn't have anything to do with how he handles a lightsaber. Count Dooku Force pushed him once during their fight, and he did so a second time.

Dooku is better than Obi-Wan in the Force by a mile.

Originally posted by The Planet
Dooku initiated the force attack while Kenobi was blocking a saber blow. He wasn't expecting Dooku to just pull off an impromptu force attack, he was caught by surprise.

Like I said before. Technically, when one bests another, one catches his opponent off guard.

Originally posted by Gideon
Which does what? If anything, that has no bearing on the fight considering Obi-Wan's Force "defense" doesn't have anything to do with how he handles a lightsaber. Count Dooku Force pushed him once during their fight, and he did so a second time.

Dooku is better than Obi-Wan in the Force by a mile.

Are you being asinine on purpose? The force attack caught him by surprise as he was putting most of his effort into blocking a saber blow. In other words:
1. He wasn't expecting it and wouldn't have known to put up a proper defence for it.
2. He was putting most of his effort into blocking a saber blow, as Dooku initiated the force attack at the same time as attacking him with a saber - one of the benefits of wielding a saber with just one hand.

Funny. Didn't you say, earlier that "Atton is a greater tactition than Revan!!11!!!!1111 LololollzoORz!!!1".



Like I told you before. Anyone who bests someone in a duel technically caught the other off guard. Mace caught Sidious off guard when he kicked him in the face. Sidious caught Yoda off guard when he blasted him with Force lightning. Yoda caught Sidious off guard when he Force pushed him across the room. Obi-Wan caught Grievous off guard when he Force pushed him into a wall.

Blah fricken blah.



One of the benefits of being a more powerful Force user and a more experienced duelist.

Originally posted by Gideon
Like I said before. Technically, when one bests another, one catches his opponent off guard.

Are you having a bad day or something, because you are coming out with some whack shit. If someone can see that an opponent is about to attack him/her, puts up a defence, but is simply bested, that isn't being caught off guard. Being caught off guard is when you're unprepared.

Originally posted by The Planet
Are you having a bad day or something, because you are coming out with some whack shit. If someone can see that an opponent is about to attack him/her, puts up a defence, but is simply bested, that isn't being caught off guard. Being caught off guard is when you're unprepared.

Like being kicked in the face, blasted with Force lightning, and Force pushed into a wall?

Clearly, you can't tell when I'm putting it on or off. This doesn't actually surprise me, you've proven yourself to be lacking perception in the past. The point is, anything I say when I'm not being serious has no bearing on anything I say when I am, so bringing it up only makes you look bad.



This is wrong, refer to my post above.

Originally posted by Gideon
Like being kicked in the face, blasted with Force lightning, and Force pushed into a wall?

Hold up, so you're disregarding common sense, and only considering three cases which happen to support your view. Please, that's ridiculous.

Clearly, you can't go around pointing fingers at people for being asinine. However, this action doesn't surprise me, because you're a pretty crappy debater. Stuff like this is expected from you. So, going around telling people to "don't be asinine, I am right, you are wrong!!!" when you are asinine and you are wrong makes you look more... stupid.

But, you've pretty much nailed a record for that place anyway.

Say, aren't you supposed to be retired? Why, if this isn't an example of the pot calling the kettle black.



For the love of God, you dumbass. Dooku no more caught Obi-Wan off guard than Mace did Sidious, Sidious to Yoda, and Yoda to Sidious. Quit being a jackass and refute it.

Originally posted by The Planet
Hold up, so you're disregarding common sense, and only considering three cases which happen to support your view. Please, that's ridiculous.

1. Maul and Obi-Wan
2. Obi-Wan and Grievous
3. Obi-Wan and Dooku
4. Sidious and Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto
5. Sidious and Mace
6. Sidious and Yoda
7. Sidious and Yoda
8. Anakin and Obi-Wan

Eight examples off of the top of my head. Quit being a jackass and refute it.

How can't I? I've proven myself to be beyond pretty much 99% of the SW section (yes, you included), even if I am inconsistent as hell. And I didn't realise you needed to be a champion debater to tell when someone else is debating badly, but nice logic anyway!



Clearly you're too dumb to realise that me putting 'retired debater' under my user name is me taking the piss out of you. Think over it hard, you might understand.



Nice strawman! My argument was never testing the degree of surprise that Dooku had on his side, I was just stating that he did catch him off guard.

Originally posted by Gideon
1. Maul and Obi-Wan
2. Obi-Wan and Grievous
3. Obi-Wan and Dooku
4. Sidious and Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto
5. Sidious and Mace
6. Sidious and Yoda
7. Sidious and Yoda
8. Anakin and Obi-Wan

Eight examples off of the top of my head. Quit being a jackass and refute it.

LMFAO! There's nothing to refute. You providing eight cases where someone bests another by catching them off guard in no way proves that someone technically catches someone off guard every time they best them. That's simply fallacious, I provided a perfectly reasonable scenario where that isn't the case, the fact is, your original statement was ridiculous.

LMAO!

Where have you done so? Oh, yes. I forgot. You're the one who claims to have "beaten" Advent, yes? I was under the impression that most people disagree with your self-assessment.



Nice... erm... excuse? All you've done is put the "retired debater" title that Advent uses. Say, didn't you accuse me of copying her?



And, as I told you, Count Dooku no more caught Obi-Wan off guard than the previous examples. That Obi-Wan wasn't expecting it means jack. Anakin wasn't expecting to get his arms and legs amputated. Sidious wasn't expecting to get pushed across the room or kicked in the face. Dooku wasn't expecting to get grabbed and his hands cut off. Grievous wasn't expecting to get pushed into a wall. Tinn, Kolar, and Fisto didn't expect to get diced by Sidious. Mace didn't expect to get electrocuted and flung out of a window. Yoda didn't expect to get blasted by Force lightning. Anakin didn't expect to be kicked into a wall.

Need I go on?

He's the inferior Force user, regardless, and was defeated by a more skilled opponent.

Dude, for a short while, nobody could touch me, only Advent, I don't need recognition from others in determining the obvious (even though I did get it, from you, darth sith to name a few). I was beyond pretty much the whole of the forum, and I had one bad day. So what? I don't deny that I'm inconsistent, you, on the other hand, are always at the same level, at my best, I've defeated you numerous times, that's how I know I'm better than you, I'm beating you now, anyone with a brain can see that.



Oh my days, he still doesn't get it.



Dude, this is ridiculous. Your original assertion was that he didn't get caught off guard. I effectively proved that wrong. Irrelevant misdirection, strawman arguments and false analogies will not change that.

Lmao. If you say so.



That you did the same thing you accused me of, thus becoming a hypocrite?



Where did I say that? I said he no more got caught off guard than the others, and that the defeat was just as legitimate and just as final.

That's great, keep it up, keep on proving how you really don't get it.



Originally posted by Gideon
And "caught off guard"? Bullshit.

^ZOMG, what's that?

Lmao. Sure thing



ZOMG!!! Read the sentence following.

What the one that doesn't make sense, and essentially displayed that you don't know the difference between catching someone offguard and besting them, lol! But really, it's there in black and white, you might actually have a point if you used a word like 'except' or 'but', but you didn't. You plainly made clear that you didn't think that he was caught off guard, and labelled General Kenobi's belief as 'bullshit'.

Originally posted by The Planet
What the one that doesn't make sense, and essentially displayed that you don't know the difference between catching someone offguard and besting them, lol! But really, it's there in black and white, you might actually have a point if you used a word like 'except' or 'but', but you didn't. You plainly made clear that you didn't think that he was caught off guard, and labelled General Kenobi's belief as 'bullshit'.

Good to see that you have telepathy imbued with your "extreme debating skillz!!111", lmao. I wasn't aware you could use ESP to realize what exactly I think in the privacy of my own mind.

But, anyways, let me shut this door for you. I made it plainly clear that I though - and still think - that he was no more caught off guard than the others. No one makes an issue out of them, so an issue shouldn't be made out of this. They were each finishing moves made in the heat of battle. It happens, it was legitimate, and if Kenobi were possessing "mad skillz!!11!" (like your debating ones, lmao) he would have likely expected it.

Each of these guys lost the fight because they did not anticipate their opponent's move. This is a sign of inferiority in that particular situation, though I do agree that it isn't indicative overall of superiority. But, they lost, either due to a lack of foresight, or arrogance.

In either case, the move was legitimate and proves Count Dooku's superior tactics.

Ooh, this is tense...


It doesn't matter... as long as the beer remains...

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
Ooh, this is tense...

:evil

Tense?

Hell no. This is hilarious.

Especially from the point of view of the onlooker!

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
Especially from the point of view of the onlooker!




It brought tears to my eyes. No damn joke. I called a friend of mine who visits the forums, crying.

Planet, I'll be back later, lol. Going out to eat with some family, and we can continue this later if you want.

In any event, and I really don't know what's been said, but here's my prediction of the battle:
Anakin rushes at Dooku, and the two begin fighting in an instant. Obi-wan and Maul enter combat. Anakin is hacking away at Dooku while Maul, for the second time, gets his sorry @$$ cut in half. Dooku then kills or severely wounds Kenobi. Anakin then uses his anger to send Dooku, once again, to the Promised Land.

1.) First off, I have to re-watch that. And second of all, so what? That little restraint was holding a frickin ton and Kenobi managed to unclasp it and throw it away and bring down the metal ton on to the Magnaguards.

2.) EU Grievous is not >>>>> ROTS Grievous. Yes, the Force Crush was deadly, but how powerless do you think ROTS Grievous is man? And the point was he threw Grievous a good hundred feet away plus fifty feet into the air.



Like Planet has countlessly said, you don't get it. Obi-Wan and Anakin were dueling Dooku and all three combatants were playing around with each other. Dooku gets desperate and does a Force Push that knocks Obi-Wan some twenty feet away. However, this is hardly Dooku at this best. Thus when Kenobi came at him, he at all didn't expect such a masterful Kick-Choke-Throw from Dooku. He didn't think Dooku would resort to the trump card and do a vicious combo like that. The whole fight up to that point was a lightsaber duel, and besides that Force Push that didn't do much damage, Obi-Wan had no fvcking defense to a surprise combo and a withering telekinetic blow that knocks him out cold, because up to that point Dooku didn't cut the shit, and when he did, Kenobi was totally unprepared.

And please, Mace and Sidious were fighting a lightsaber duel. Both of them were trying (because if they didn't, they would get killed) and Mace gets a kick on Sidious. A kick is a fighting manuever. We see Anakin use on Obi-Wan on Mustafar. It's not Mace wasn't trying and then suddenly he cut the shit and fvcked Sidious up....



You're right, Obi-Wan lost because he did not expect Dooku to cut shit and not be arrogant. My point is because of that move Dooku does, it doesn't automatically equate to Dooku >>>>>>>>>> Kenobi because he surprises him with an attack Obi-Wan had no defense to.

Go right ahead, Prodigal. However, if you are assuming that merely crushing the restraint that kept the metal suspended equates to him being capable of lifting the metal itself and throwing it, you are deluded. A similar feat was performed by Count Dooku himself in Attack of the Clones. He crushed the bottom support of that massive column, during his saberlock with Yoda. That doesn't mean that he ripped the damn thing out of the ground and hurled it like a brick. He simply crushed the bottom and let gravity finish the job.

Which is precisely what Obi-Wan did. Period.



Irrelevent. Though General Grievous is a deadly opponent, don't mistake him for possessing the intense Force-power of a Jedi. Him chucking Grievous is like someone tossing a Super battle droid. Again, this does not indicate that he is anywhere close to Dooku on the Force totem pole.



Lmao, hysterics aside, it is The Planet who doesn't get it. When one enters a duel, one understands that there is a chance that he or she will be confronted with the unexpected. I have cited several examples of situations in which one combatant has been nearly done in or beaten by an attack that he or she did not expect.

That doesn't mean, however, that the attack wasn't legitimate, or "fair". That is what you do, Prodigal, when you fight. The combatant seeks to outfight his opponent by throwing at him something that he cannot expect or defend against.

Otherwise, duels would go on and on and on and on and on forever.



Oh... I see... Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Count Dooku weren't fighting in a lightsaber duel. Yes, of course. It must have been Christmas wrapping paper rolls that they were using to fight one another. Must've been pretty damn hot and sharp.



No kidding. A Force attack, too, is a fighting maneuver in Star Wars. Deal with it.

Bottom line: Sidious wasn't expecting the kick. Quit trying to throw bullshit logic into the fray to support your favorite movie character. Sidious was faced with the same sort of situation that Obi-Wan was - that is to say - he was bested by an attack that he didn't expect and likely couldn't have defended himself against even if he did.

Same situation, same outcome.

As for Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan, Dooku couldn't handle them both in a lightsaber duel for a prolonged period of time.



Again, by the very same logic, Sidious lost because he didn't expect to get a kick from Mace; Yoda nearly died because he didn't expect a blast of Force lightning; Sidious was nearly bested because he didn't expect a Force push from Yoda; Mace lost because he didn't expect the "weak" Palpatine to get back up and Bar-b-que his ass; Anakin got his shit amputated because he didn't expect Obi-Wan to take a swing and dismember him; Grievous wasn't expecting a Force push; Obi-Wan wasn't expecting to get Force pushed into a melting pit.

Obi-Wan got flung like a ragdoll twice in that movie. Dooku Force pushed him out of the fight initially, and did it again, except the second time was with more finality.

Quit being such a fanboy of Obi-Wan that you have your head up your ass.

Obi-Wan's defense would allow him to be a problem to Count Dooku in a saber lock, and in that, he could last a while. Offensively? Hell no. Dooku's a far better offensive duelist. And, last, but not least, in a Force fight? No. Obi-Wan is much weaker than Count Dooku in the Force and does not possess his versatility in power or mastery of it.

LOL! "Jedi MINK trick"!

* Sry, Jedi MIND Trick

Go. Right. Ahead.

The feat is impressive? No. Sidious playing tennis with Senate pods and Yoda catching lightning with his bare hands is impressive. The metal was suspended by the restraint. Obi-Wan did not do anything other than remove the restraint. It was gravity that performed this so-called impressive feat.

This delusion that you have is an example of you having your head up your ass when it comes to Obi-Wan vs. Dooku.



CW Grievous =/= RotS Grievous. Understand that. Anyways, lol, "he was caught off guard!". Sound familiar?



Lol. I didn't realize that you were George Lucas, now. Please. It's not your place to tell me how the fight would have gone, when you've got nothing to base it on.



Of course, George Lucas.

This is why I lose my patience with you on this issue. You don't know what Obi-Wan was thinking. Or Dooku. So quit trying to say "oh, well, Obi-Wan knew that Dooku wasn't trying - so he went on the offensive...", 'cause you don't know. Period.

He gets chucked by Dooku twice. Why? Because Dooku is a better Force user.



Yeah. Except that Maul dominated Obi-Wan before that little incident. Or did you conveniantly forget why Obi-Wan was in the pit in the first place?

They fought on even ground; Obi-Wan lost. Maul held off Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon at the same time for an extremely long amount of time. If that's not a sign of superiority, I don't know what is, especially when he killed Qui-Gon and the only reason Obi-Wan did anything noteworthy was because of his brief touch with his inner dark side.



Pardon? This was posted by you:



Put two-and-two together. You said this in response to my remarks about Obi-Wan and Dooku, implying that Mace didn't catch Sidious off guard because they were fighting in a lightsaber duel.

Which is pretty stupid on your part, considering how Obi-Wan was, too.



Oh, yeah, lmao. Sidious should have been able to defend a kick against an opponent who is much more physically capable than him? And, no, you are wrong, Prodigal. Didn't you just get done saying that Dooku's Force attacks were out of desperation? He was going all out. And, just to be sure, the movies don't support the whole "faking it" conclusion. None of them were screwing around at that point. The only one being anything close to restrained was Anakin, due to Obi-Wan's presence - and Count Dooku's arrogance prevented him from using his superior Force powers until it was too late, or extremely desperate.

The lightsaber portion of the fight seemed to be both fast paced and extremely epic. Neither side was faking. The script and movies don't support that conclusion.



Like I said, psuedo-George, don't tell me that "Obi-Wan wasn't expecting shit!!!11", because you don't know.

And, furthermore, even if he was - then it's just like Dooku's arrogance. An extreme psychological disadvantage. If Obi-Wan tried to toy with Dooku, and couldn't tell when Dooku stopped "cutting the shit" as you so eloquently put it, then what's to say that he would in a regular duel, and that would somehow miraculously prevent him from getting owned again?

Answer: It wouldn't.



Lmao.

a.) Where were Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Dooku "holding back"? As far as the lightsaber fight is concerned, they seemed quite clearly to be going full out on one another. Anakin was restrained by Obi-Wan, and Dooku may have been restrained by his own ego. What's Obi-Wan's excuse?

b.) Bullshit as far as Mace vs. Sidious. You say that Sidious wasn't caught off guard and he could have stopped the kick? Then, he would have done so - regardless if Mace was stronger.

Hypothetically speaking, if Sidious wasn't caught off guard, he would have put up a defense. If Mace were stronger regardless, and the kick would have ended the fight, it would've broken through his defenses or he would have landed it anyway, regardless if Sidious tried to avoid it.

Bottom line: By your logic, Sidious was caught off guard no more than Obi-Wan, and no less. Still doesn't change the fact. Dooku overpowered him in that situation (simultaneously combating Anakin) while Sidious was overpowered by Mace in their duel.



Yoda and Sidious did go full out. Again, Yoda got owned by Force lightning in the beginning, and Sidious then got owned by a Force push. Both reasons were simple: both were caught off guard and both went in overconfident. Then, of course, you have the fact that they both landed blows on one another during their duel.

Where did Obi-Wan best Dooku, or come close? Answer: he didn't, except in a prolonged lightsaber duel - but that was with Anakin, as well.



Which means what? I have already said that Dooku can't handle them both in a prolonged saber fight.



Who said it was to injure him?

When have Force pushes been known to cause debilitating injuries in the movies? The only case that came close was with Grievous, but he was slammed, very hard, into a wall, and then fell from a great height. Even then, all it did was put distance between them (which was what Obi-Wan did) - but it didn't injure him. At best, it stunned him.

The same went for Sidious.

Likely, Dooku just wanted to separate them - hence the follow up attack from the Battle Droids.

(con't)



Please. You're judging the effort and damage of the attack merely from the gestures that follow? Obi-Wan was choked by Dooku - it wasn't merely a Force push. Dooku kept him suspended in mid air long enough to back kick Anakin into the wall - and then he used the "sidearm swipe" to fling Obi-Wan into the wall.

a.) The choking factor must have helped.

b.) The distance Obi-Wan was thrown the second time was much greater than the first.

c.) Obi-Wan hit a metal wall.

d.) Obi-Wan bounced off the wall and fell.

e.) Obi-Wan was then buried under a balcony.



Like I told you. Sidious and Grievous recovered extremely quickly from their Force pushes quite easily as well. Maul's Force push to Obi-Wan in TPM didn't injure him insofar as put distance between them - coupled with the near tumble into the melting pit. The push itself did jack. Then, of course, Anakin and Obi-Wan both recovered from their Force pushes quite easily, despite being slammed into consoles.

Force push isn't Force lightning. It's not damaging in itself.



Obi-Wan's defense makes him a problem. But, lol, he's got no chance of winning due to a poor offense.



No.



Take the Obi-Wan and Anakin vs. Dooku fight (which ends when Obi-Wan is knocked unconscious, divide it by two, and that's about it.



Please. Seven seconds? Are you sure about that, because I'm not. In any case, lmao, it took one second to kill Agen. The rest was Sidious flipping over the desk, growling, then lunging forward and stabbing him.

Pwnt.

And the other post, "Part 2" is feat wars which, in regards to Gideon's post, is irrelevant. Feat Wars mean precisely dick when not put into context.

Originally posted by Advent
Pwnt.

And the other post, "Part 2" is feat wars which, in regards to Gideon's post, is irrelevant. Feat Wars mean precisely dick when not put into context. What did that post have to do with anything anyways (aside from the fact that we already know, that he's an able fighter)?

You do still love me.

Of course, but I have more work to do, so get back down to the chamber, your mistress demands it.

...Now, where did I put that whip?

Originally posted by Advent
Of course, but I have more work to do, so get back down to the chamber, your mistress demands it.

...Now, where did I put that whip?

Lmao. Yes'm.

Do you not use the MSN you downloaded?

All right Escape, don't think I have given up. The reply will come...

Don't worry Prodigal, Escape's wrong, it won't be too hard to prove that.

Originally posted by The Planet
Don't worry Prodigal, Escape's wrong, it won't be too hard to prove that.

Lmao. Aww... encouraging words, Planet, and yet I don't see you trying to refute it. Go ahead and try, oh God of Debating.

Shut up and stop being a troll. You're going to get the refutation...

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Shut up and stop being a troll. You're going to get the refutation...

Lmao. Why don't you stop trying to play Rex, and get working on that rebuttle? The way it looks, you're going to need all the help you can get. Or are you going to argue "he dropped teh metal block on teh Magnaguards" from here to eternity?

Yes, I judge from the gestures that followed. Gestures tell you the Force power differential. For example, when Obi-Wan turns around and then delievers a Force Push equates to a much higher strength then a Force Push where the hand just appears before the opponent. And please, watch that scene again. Dooku Chokes Kenobi for about two seconds while he kicks Anakin away. He then throws Kenobi into the platform.

A.) True

B.) Really? And even IF that was true, Kenobi was caught off guard by the sea of Force attacks and ergo he was thrown away like that, because if you remember, when he stood in front Dooku headon and took in the Force Push, his defense made him land on the other side of the stairwell.

C.) So? During When They Were Brothers, Kenobi was slammed through the window from an explosion and was still conscious. He has endurance man. That is why he wasn't injured by Dooku's direct Force Push. Kenobi would have gotten up from the Push into the wall, but Dooku dropped a platform on it.

D.) He fell like 5 feet. Big deal, I could withstand that.

E.) Yes, this what made him fully snuffed.



Maul saw a hole and saw a Padawan nearly on top of him. What does he do? He Pushes him into the hole, avoiding any extra fighting. Smart move Maul. And yes, a Force Push is damaging. Mace Windu used a Force Wave (higher level of Push) to destroy droids on Dantooine. Kenobi used a Force Push to injured Grievous. Dooku used Force Push on Kenobi to remove him from the duel but failed. The second time though, he succeeded by surprising Dooku with a Force Push.



You don't need offense to win a duel, stupid. Look what happened to ROTS Grievous. Obi-Wan was using Soresu and then disarming when having openings. And did you see how fast Kenobi was with Soresu against Anakin in ROTS during the Mustafar duel? Yes, in a lightsaber duel, Kenobi can give Greivous a helluva fight.



I counted, it's 1 minute exactly.



Sorry, it's 6 seconds. The Force Speed + Jump + Rage is what finished Kolar so quickly. Thus Dooku cannot kill Kenobi in 4 seconds, but instead a minute (you conceded to a minute) plus.

@ Advent:



The Feat Wars is used for reference. You often times post your Feat Wars of Dooku is threads.

Part 1 of 3

Well, before we begin, let me make a few things clear with you. I've read your posts, both of them, and they both have a ridiculous amount of insults and scathing remarks in them. You seemed to have picked up The Planet's habit of using the phrase "dumbass". What is really interesting about this, is that you accused me of being a "troll" on this very page.



So, like The Planet, you've become a hypocrite. You also make remarks about how my attempts only make me look bad. I wonder what people will think about you once they see you whining about others being a troll - and then going on a spree of insults yourself?

Not too good. And, as I recall, you aren't considered the pinnacle of debating yourself so... I'd just be careful.

Likewise, continue it, and you'll get similar - and much harsher - responses.



Let me reiterate it for you: Obi-Wan did not do anything impressive in that instance. As Advent and I have tried to make it clear to you on previous occasions, he simply snapped the restraint on the metal block - and then gravity took over from there.

It is not as if he lifted the metal himself, so stop pretending that the feat was anything considerable. If you want to credit anyone or anything for the deaths of the Magnaguards, I'd recommend thanking and fellating gravity itself.



General Grievous has fought hundreds of Jedi? In single combat? Where has this been stated and confirmed?

And, considering how most Jedi Knights and Masters rely primarily on lightsaber combat, and use the Force only when necessary, I doubt that they came out of the blue and tried to engage him in Force combat, as that isn't the common practice.



When was he toying around, Prodigal? The novelization seems to say so, but observations from the movie and script disagree.

Likewise, "my precious Dooku"? I could go into extreme detail of how "stupid" you are, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Need I remind you that I have argued against Dooku more than I have argued for him and the reason I do both is because I am fair?

It would seem as if you are trying to accuse me of fanboyism for Count Dooku.

I wouldn't try to point fingers at me for fanboyism, General Kenobi.



The attacks were different; and I told you, in itself, a Force push is not damaging. The most damage that it can do is when the victim impacts with something. Sidious, a sixty year old man, was caught off guard and flung across his office, crashed into a massive chair, which spilled him out to the floor. And, yet, two second later, he was already back to his feet.

The second thing that Obi-Wan confronted was a Force choke (which is damaging, and often brings about unconsciousness); he was flung farther, impacted with a wall harder, fell from a great height, and then buried beneath a balcony.

Hardly the same attacks, and hardly anything close in the amount of damage.



Here is the difference, Prodigal. Maul dominated the fight between him, Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan. He even managed to kill Qui-Gon, during. Then, he Force pushed Obi-Wan into the melting pit. Obi-Wan's kill is not as impressive, nor can it be conjectured that he is superior to Maul because Maul dominated the duel itself.

So, no, I am not saying that anyone who necessarily catches his or her opponent off guard is superior in that instance, but they are when they dominate the fight prior to the act - which is what Maul and Dooku both did.



You're missing the point. Your first comment about Mace and Sidious's duel being different was that they were engaged in a lightsaber duel. That was, indeed, your first remark, and you said it wasn't the same because of that. And, I simply pointed out that the same was with Obi-Wan and Anakin in their fight against Dooku.



I could point out that your skills remain at a constant leveluck-level, to be precise, but, like I said. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.



That's right; he was incapable of defending himself against Mace's kick, as Obi-Wan was incapable of doing the same to Count Dooku.



Sidious was older, and physically weaker, and he was thrown by a greater distance by a stronger Force user than Obi-Wan, and got up seconds later, uninjured.

Reiterated message: Force pushes, in themselves, are not damaging, especially to Force users - and even more especially - decent Force users.



I'm talking about Revenge of the Sith; AotC Anakin is different, and, yes, the databank, AotC novelization, and Labyrinth of Evil both state that "Skywalker wasn't as easily defeated the second time around".

So, to answer your question, was Dooku fighting with everything he absolutely had against Anakin in Attack of the Clones? No. Hell no. But, he had put up a better fight than Dooku had expected, and the Count had to increase the intensity that they fought in order to comfortably subdue him - which he did.



If Dooku toys around. Especially in lightsaber combat? Where have I denied this...? I even recall stating that he would be a problem in sheer lightsaber dueling.

I said, though, if it came to the Force, Obi-Wan doesn't have a prayer.

Likewise, when did you specify that he'd last that long only if he were toying around?

Part 2 out of 3



Oh, it goes from just plain old "toying around" to "slightly toying around", now?

Again, the script nor the movie seem to support this.



Ridiculous.

I could easily claim that Obi-Wan "stopped the shit" insofar as lightsaber combat and used an attack that Grievous couldn't exactly defend against - a powerful Force push. That could be construed as catching Grievous off guard.

Anyways, where has this theory of Dooku and the Jedi "toying around"? Anakin was forcing Dooku up the stairs, and you said that he Force pushed Obi-Wan away in desperation.

How can you be desperate if you're toying with someone?

Must've meant that he stopped "toying around" with them after the initial strikes - which does nothing to help your argument whatsoever.



Or: They were going full out, Count Dooku realized he couldn't handle them both in a lightsaber duel at the same time, so he pushed Obi-Wan aside to concentrate on Anakin. Obi-Wan, deciding to press this advantage went forth and tried to take the offensive - alongside Anakin - and kill Dooku quickly.

He likely went on the offensive to try to take Dooku out immediately, knowing how powerful he was. Especially since Anakin had Dooku on the defensive, how would Obi-Wan's defensive attacks make any difference to an opponent on the defensive himself?



Oh. I see... Yoda had never faced a Dark Lord of the Sith before? Both Sidious and Count Dooku were Dark Lords. The only titular difference between them was "master" and "apprentice". I don't know whether you're arguing out of deception or ignorance, but Yoda had faced a Dark Lord before - once on Geonosis and the second on Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force. This was Count Dooku.

In Attack of the Clones, Yoda himself says that arrogance "is a flaw more common among the Jedi. Even the older, more experienced ones."

Do you not think that he himself is immune to that? One of the Jedi's major flaws that led to Sidious eradicating them was corruption and arrogance.



Obi-Wan would only be a problem in lightsaber combat. I've said it before. But that is it. Not in Force combat.



Or: Dooku did it to give him some time to concentrate on Anakin, and have his battle droids attack Obi-Wan either as a distraction or a serious hope that they'd injure him.



It was a different attack, Prodigal.

Part 3 out of 3



Or: The gesture was used to guide Obi-Wan out from in front of Dooku to fling him into the wall them both. Obi-Wan started out in front of Dooku. Dooku lifted Kenobi, kicked Anakin, and then swung Obi-Wan around to send him crashing into the far wall behind all three of them.



Precisely. The choke had, undeniably, the harshest effect.



Or: he was simply overpowered by Dooku's dark side attacks, which Obi-Wan doesn't have a lot of experience with, and has zero versatility with - coupled with Dooku's superior mastery and experienced with the Force.



Or: A Force push in itself isn't damaging.



Lmao... Count Dooku is six-foot-five, and he could stand, easily, underneath the balcony. That, and Obi-Wan hit the way several feet above the balcony itself, which has just been proven to stand taller than six feet and five inches.

He fell much more than five feet.



He was unconscious before the balcony hit him.



a.) Maul's Force push didn't do damage.

b.) Droids =/= Force users, or biological humans. Force wave > Force push.

c.) Please. Grievous's "injury" was made when he impacted with the wall and fell from a great height. Even then, he wasn't even momentarily stunned.



I didn't say that he required it. But, Count Dooku is a skilled defensive and offensive duelist. Grievous wasn't exactly the master of defense.



If he toys around with Obi-Wan, and then, of course, you have to factor in that Anakin did most of the work, pushing Dooku back.



Um... no. Sidious used Force speed and Force jump to get to Agen. It took him a single second to kill Agen, the moment he stepped up to him.



Assaj Ventress gave Obi-Wan hell in a fight. Dooku put her to her knees by lifting a finger. So... um... yeah. He's a mile above Obi-Wan in the Force. Period.

Trying to avoid the accusations of hypocrisy yourself by trying to point me out as a hypocrite?

I don't deny that I have insults in my posts. But, when have I called you stupid or when have I insulted your intelligence. At most, I've called you a fanboy.

Secondly, I don't know where the hell you have been, but I find it highly amusing that you have ignored his actions. Go to my profile to see some "trolling" from him.

Painting me as the bad guy is a nice attack and all, but it is hardly going to work.



Lmao. You nor The Planet have irked me insofar as made me angry or annoyed. But I do find it disheartening that you insult my intelligence though I have not done the same to you.

But, hey, that's fine. You can expect to get the same treatment back.



The whole problem is that I am not a dumbass. I'm sure that we can get the public's opinion on our intellects, the both of us. Appealing to the public, I suppose, but I wonder what they'd have to say.

-

That doesn't surprise me. You weren't aware of his "trolling" either, despite how blatant it was.



Use that time to make a better response. If I may paraphrase you, all I've seen is an argument waiting to be torn apart.

OK, I'm loving what you guys are doing, and the energy and everything is great, but how about you stop bringing me up, KTHXBAI!

I know I insult people. I know that you insult people. And you have called me stupid before (the same argument, except earlier when you refused to debate me on the idea that it was stupid), and you have called me a fanboy, which I am surely not.

And second of all, I have debated the Planet before. I know he insults his opponents, but none of them were so overwhelming bad.

And I am not painting you as the bad guy, I am just telling the truth.



If I insulted your intelligence, then I am sorry. If you find it offensive, I will stop.



OMFG Escape, seriously chill. Dude, when a person calls another kid a dumbass, it does not mean they really are a dumbass. It's just an insult to the person when he says something stupid that the insultor finds idiotic. Your rebuttal seemed quite pointless to me so much that I felt that calling you a dumbass seems fit. If you feel really that bad about it, fine sorry.

Appealing to public opinion is a logical fallacy and means shit to me.



Planet and I debated, we gave each other our dose of trolling, and everything civilized. I don't take insults to heart.



Yes, I have the time to type this up. But a 3-paged argument takes too much thinking and time. "Argument waiting to be torn apart" LMAO

I just read Escape's profile.

Wow! He seems to have some kind of weird obsession with me, LMAO!!

Edit - Wow! Escape's much younger than I would have thought.

Wow, you must be old then.

Why, how old did you think he was?

Originally posted by The Planet
Wow! He seems to have some kind of weird obsession with me, LMAO!!

Edit - Wow! Escape's much younger than I would have thought.

Lmao. I sure do. God of debating and all, I am your loyal subject.

By the way, Prodigal, I don't think you're being honest. I have called your argument stupid, but never have I called you stupid. Rocas can vouch for me, there, as the first time we had this debate, I told several people about it, and how inept your arguments were. But I went out of my way to make it clear that you were intelligent, and I didn't think you were stupid.

I call very few people "dumb". But, when I do, I mean it. Even Planet here isn't stupid - just an egotistical person who overvalues and overestimates his opinion in regards to canon, not understanding that his opinion means jack in the face of cold, hard evidence.

Hence my anthology of quotes from him in my profile. It's a shrine to egotism.

Nice subtle jab there, Gideon.

Originally posted by The Planet
Nice subtle jab there, Gideon.

Wasn't a jab. And if you could recognize it, then it wasn't that subtle.

Just kidding.

You're pretty smart, but your ego makes you appear to be somewhat of a jackass. 'Cause, you're not better than 99% of the versus forum, and your opinion isn't on par with the authorities of Star Wars, and, lastly, you're not a God of debating.

Hmm...well you did post this stuff about me:









And you told people about how poor my arguments were? Well, oh well. I still got my point through. See if you go back to the old thread where we argued this, you and Advent kept saying 13 seconds. I brutally argued to make that time 40 seconds from both of you, so I am a bit happy. Doesn't mean I'll stop debating though ....

Like I said; I said your arguments were stupid. Never said you were.

And, lol, Obi-Wan only gets that time if Dooku toys with him. You just said he'd get that time by skill. Which isn't true.

If Dooku toys, Obi-Wan easily lasts for a minute. If Dooku goes all out, Obi-Wan lasts for around 30 seconds, though definately more.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
If Dooku toys, Obi-Wan easily lasts for a minute. If Dooku goes all out, Obi-Wan lasts for around 30 seconds, though definately more.

The precise point I was making (and it has been made, it seems) was that Obi-Wan's duration in the duel against Count Dooku is not credited only to his skill; it is equally credit to Anakin's skill as well as the Count's arrogance.

W/e, sorry for the delay and stuff, but hopefully the reply will come tomorrow. I didn't even look at it yet.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
W/e, sorry for the delay and stuff, but hopefully the reply will come tomorrow. I didn't even look at it yet.

Make it well thought out. Some of your points made me curious as to whether or not you were ignoring the obvious, or flat out lying, such as your assertion that Yoda did not face a Dark Lord prior to Sidious.