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This is Vader in his prime during the OT vs. General Grievous in EU. Personally I think that Grievous would win. Vader's chance of wining is using the Force. I think that Grievous will be able to dodge Vader's Force attacks and once he engages Vader in saber combat he's won cause there's no way Vader's going to be able to block all of Grievous's sabers at the same time seeing as how fast Grievous moves them. I mean, EU Grievous put up a good fight against Mace Windu (LOE), defeated 5 Jedi on Hypori pretty easily (two of which were Council members, though they were all tired this is still a great feat), defeated 4 Jedi Masters with easy in LOE before kidnapping Palpatine and survived a huge explosion at the end of the General Grievous comics. So I'd say he has Vader.

vader-but its close

Vader Force Crushes Grievous like Mace did and then Vader beats him down with his cape.

Unless Grievous dodges the Force Crush.

Yeah like he did Mace's

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Yeah like he did Mace's
That time he had no where to dodge, plus CW cartoon Mace us far stronger than Vader.

Well, if the power to destroy a planet, is insignificant next to the power of the force...then so is GG.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well, if the power to destroy a planet, is insignificant next to the power of the force...then so is GG.
Which explains why Sha'a Gi beat Grievous.

Dodging Force push is one thing but Force crush directly effects the opponent.

Greivous wins. He is simply to fast for Vader.. Remember this is EU GG, who is far better than his ROTS counterpart. I dont see how Vader is fast enough to dodge all 4 of GG's blades, especially when he got defeated by the likes of Luke, who had next to no training with a sword. GG is also extremely acrobatic and can easily match (if not better) Vader in raw physical strength.

All telekenisis attaxks take time to reach the opponent. It's not an instant thing.

Well, he was conflicted and trying not to kill LKuke, but still I could never see Luke getting past Grievous's attacks.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Well, he was conflicted and trying not to kill LKuke, but still I could never see Luke getting past Grievous's attacks.

True, but im sure getting you arm hacked at in ESB and hand chopped off in ROTJ was never part of Vaders plan. If Luke can get these attacks in on Vader I see no reason why GG couldnt do the same, only to a much deadlier degree.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
True, but im sure getting you arm hacked at in ESB and hand chopped off in ROTJ was never part of Vaders plan. If Luke can get these attacks in on Vader I see no reason why GG couldnt do the same, only to a much deadlier degree.

Vader was trying to capture Luke not kill him. Vader had to disarm Luke one way or another and taking a hand seems better then taking a head when you want your opponent alive.

And remember using all 4 lightsabers will restict the General's movements if anything. With 4 blades going at those high speeds General Grievous wouldn't be able to show off any acrobatics here or else he would end up slicing off his own body parts.

Now using 2 would make Grievous be able to move around more like he was seen doing in the Clone Wars microseries. But even then Vader has mastered using the Force in combat and would be able to apply the Force Crush on Grievous.

Honestly, if this EU Grievous includes Clone Wars Grievous, then Vader doesn't have a prayer of a chance in single combat.

Something needs to be done about the Clone Wars cartoons, the feats displayed in them cant be considered canon, they contradict the movies in such a ridiculous fashion.

I'm not exactly sure how Lucasfilm views the feats in the Clone Wars cartoons...

They should seriously be considered N-Canon, as they make zero sense at all.

If Mace could canonically do what he does in the CW cartoons then technically he could of went into the Geonosis arena BY HIMSELF and singlehandedly destroyed all the droids in the arena without the aid of his lightsaber, and rescued Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme BY HIMSELF...

Such things cant be considered canon, its illogical.

CW cartoon grievous makes sense because Grievous is as strong in all of EU as he is in the cartoon. The only thing he's weaker in than he is in the Cartoon is ROTS, and the in-universe explanation for this is he got weaker when Mace Force-Crushed his chest.

Again CW Grievous is an exaggeration, just like everyone else in the show. Do you think Mace can punch out an army? Do you think Kit Fisto can destroy ships? Do you think Luminara and Bariss can hold an entire mountan with meditation? Do you think Grievous can pwn 8 Jedi, some who are the finest in the Order? NO!!! It's an exaggeration my friend.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Again CW Grievous is an exaggeration, just like everyone else in the show. Do you think Mace can punch out an army? Do you think Kit Fisto can destroy ships? Do you think Luminara and Bariss can hold an entire mountan with meditation? Do you think Grievous can pwn 8 Jedi, some who are the finest in the Order? NO!!! It's an exaggeration my friend.
Mace is an exaggeration since he's stronger in the cartoon than he is anywhere else. Same with Yoda. Kit's and Shaak Ti are exaggerations, too, but on a smaller scale. Same with Luminara and, especially, Barriss. All of these Jedi are exaggerations because theyir stronger in the cartoon than they are anywhere else. Grievous is NOT an exaggeration because he is just as strong in all of EU as he is in the cartoon. Grievous only pwnd 5 Jedi at once, not 8, and among the 5 they were all exhausted, Grievous had the advantage of fear on his side, and he had the advantage of surprise on his side. Had he had none of these advantages and the Jedi had not been exhausted then Grievous would have been destroyed, so no, it's not an exaggeration. Again, he is the same in the cartoon as he is in every thing he's in except ROTS, so it is NOT an exaggeration.

C'mon Darth, are you kidding me? Anakin is exaggerated. Kit is exaggerated. Luminara is exaggerated. Bariss is exaggerated. Asajj is exaggerated. Mace is exaggerated. Literally every lightsaber-wielding warrior in that show is exaggerated by a tenfold. So just because of nowhere, the directors of the CW are going to be like "Oh, everyone else is exaggerated. Let's not do that to Grievous." Please, CW Grievous is exaggerated, though not by a lot.

And then Grievous manages to dodge all those gunshots by the Clones!!! Seriously, CW Grievous is an exaggeration of the real EU Grievous.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
C'mon Darth, are you kidding me? Anakin is exaggerated. Kit is exaggerated. Luminara is exaggerated. Bariss is exaggerated. Asajj is exaggerated. Mace is exaggerated. Literally every lightsaber-wielding warrior in that show is exaggerated by a tenfold. So just because of nowhere, the directors of the CW are going to be like "Oh, everyone else is exaggerated. Let's not do that to Grievous." Please, CW Grievous is exaggerated, though not by a lot.

And then Grievous manages to dodge all those gunshots by the Clones!!! Seriously, CW Grievous is an exaggeration of the real EU Grievous.
How is Anakin exaggerated? Asajj is only exaggerated when she wiped out all those Clones with the Force without being seen. Kenobi was never exaggerated. None of the Jedi Grievous faught were exaggerated, except Shaak Ti when she takes out like twenty Magnaguards at once. Voolvif Monn, Roron Corobb and Foul Moudama were not over exaggerated. Nietehr were the Jedi Anakin saves in Chapter 21-22 (can't remember which chapter). So no, not every saber wielding warrior in the show is overexaggerated. CW Grievous is NOT exaggerated because if he is then so is LOE Grievous, Grievous from the Grievous comics, Grievous from Dark Jedi, Grievous from Obsession, Grievous from Boba Fett: A New Threat and Grievous from the Clone Wars Adventures. So eitehr all of these Grievous are overexaggerated or none of them are, because he's the same in all of them.

No, because CW Grievous is shown to be more poewrful than his LOE self. Seriously, thats just like asking Mace Windu to take on the 5 Jedi on Hypori and see if he can pwn them. Windu cannot pwn them, he can win, but I doubt he pwns them.



Yeah, Anakin and Asajj were exaggerated. Remember their duel, when they jumped treetop to treetop at blazing speeds. Remember Roron Corobb's Throat Cry, which blasted those droids away. Remember Voolvif Monn reflecting a line of droids (twenty+ I counted) in Chapter 20 of CW 1.



Perhaps, though a high majority of them are.

5 exhausted Jedi, when Mace has the advantage of fear and surprise? Yes, they would get pwnd.


I think the duel was just being showed at high speed for a few seconds.

Which exhausted him afterwards. It was was because of his powerful neck muscles, and in essence was a powerful Force blast which was exerted from his neck. It wasn't exaggerated.

But only for a few seconds, that might be possible, for all we know Voolvif Mon might be one of the strongest Jedi in the order.

Perhaps. But note that Mace > EU Grievous. And the actual portrayal of that fight (which I just saw on youtube) shows Grievous spinning his blades at ridiculously high speeds. Seriously, that means this EU Grievous >>>> ROTS Grievous, which is highly unlikely.



And not only that. You see Anakin in certain scenes lifting an entire pillar and throwing at Asajj and then countering it. There's so many exaggerations of PADAWAN Anakin's powers that its absolutely ridiculous. To me, this CW Anakin > ROTS Anakin.




It destroyed an entire regiment of droids and blasted apart the sidewalk and everything. Ithorians must have REALLY powerful throats then.



Random excuse. Remember the scene where Monn, Aayla, and Koth are captured by this 30 ft droid and then Knight Anakin saves them. If Monn was so powerful to block the shots of 20 Super Battle Droids, then he should have no problem with a single Spider Droid, I hope?

Seriously darthsith, you can't deny that the CW series is full of exaggerations.

He does spin them quite fast. His speed in that instance might be slightly exaggerated but his overall power is not. Mace is hardly stronger than EU grievous, too, and, due to the fact that Grievous has multiple lightsabers he would likely do just as good or better than mace would against multiple Jedi at the same time.

Your kidding, right? So he tossed some things at Asajj, so what? In LOE he uses the Force to collapse an eitire room! This is no exaggeration. And Padawan Anakin is already stronger than alot of Jedi.

Yup.

Who ever said that was Monn, Kolar and Aayla and not just other Jedi of the same species?

Well yeah, his speed is one of the main exaggerations. Well obviously, him blocking the lightsabers with his strength is clearly not an exaggeration. His ability to pwn them by isolating them with his tornado attack is quite ridiculous.



Some things!!! My friend, he threw pillars at Asajj with no effort at all. And he blocked one while running. Yes, in ROTS, do you see Anakin being able to throw pillars and stuff? No, all we see of him is pushing Obi-Wan, which he fails. And so what if his rage collapses an entire room. It took time right?



Exactly, a clear exaggeration.



WTF?? This makes no sense. Again though, Monn being the uber Jedi couldn't even take on a single Spider droid. The whole exaggeration doesn't even add up.

A little, not much. LOE states that he can swing his lightsabers 16 times per second, so.

Who says he sued no effort? I can only remember him blockign a Force Push. And why couldn't he block one while running?

He never tries to throw a pillar in ROTS. Kenobi blocks his Force Push which is why it fails.

Nope. He yells loud and it collapses. I'm serious.

Nope, like you said, he has a really strong throat.

Who ever said that was Monn and not merely another Shistavanen Jedi?

Vader crushes GG with FG, End of the damm story. no excuses of saying "OHHHH lala! GG can dodge the crush!! Zomg!"

This is hardly even a fight since vader would woop GGs metalic ass with the force and if vader can rip tanks apart like nothing he sure hell can toy with GG

Thats bullsh*t and you know it. How the hell is Vader going to pull of an advanced and difficult move like Crush against someone like Greivous. Simple answer: He's not

This is EU General Greivous, and advanced killing machine who has shown us some pretty spectacular stuff. Dodging force pushes and killing multiple jedi at once come to mind. He is stronger physically than Vader due to the fact he is completely metal. Therefore his attacks are going to beat Vader back, not the other way around. He also wields 4 blades at once, usually using them at lightning speeds. Now, how the holy hell is Vader meant to defend against this? He is embarrasingly slow, struggling to keep up with the attacks of the untrained Luke Skywalker. I see absolutely no way that Vader is going to win a lightsaber battle - and chances are its going to end up as a saber battle. Greivous acrobatic abilities will get him to Vader faster than Vader can execute and force attack.

Just so you know, EU Greivous has experienced a force crush and it had had very little effect. Also the crush was performed by Mace Windu, an extremely powerful force user who wouldnt be far off Vaders force skill and power. Greivous walked away with nothing but a cough. Now, with this in mind, Vaders force prowess is going to have little effect in this fight.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Thats bullsh*t and you know it. How the hell is Vader going to pull of an advanced and difficult move like Crush against someone like Greivous. Simple answer: He's not
Its not difficult if he can rip tanks apart

Originally posted by Rampant ox

This is EU General Greivous, and advanced killing machine who has shown us some pretty spectacular stuff. Dodging force pushes and killing multiple jedi at once come to mind. He is stronger physically than Vader due to the fact he is completely metal. Therefore his attacks are going to beat Vader back, not the other way around. He also wields 4 blades at once, usually using them at lightning speeds. Now, how the holy hell is Vader meant to defend against this? He is embarrasingly slow, struggling to keep up with the attacks of the untrained Luke Skywalker. I see absolutely no way that Vader is going to win a lightsaber battle - and chances are its going to end up as a saber battle. Greivous acrobatic abilities will get him to Vader faster than Vader can execute and force attack.
So? Vader could already TEAR metal from metal in the purge by just screaming obi wans name, what if he actually used a technique? Im sure he is powerful enough to tear a star destroyer engine apart, why? because "size matters not, the only difference is in your mind" and You know damm well that vader is capable of doing that.Being able toduel 8 jedi masters at once. Must i keep stating that vader is not slow? because he was already featured fast in the EU, NO NO NO NO NO do not use that bull shit "movie is higher canon" When vader has been SHOWN being fast out side the movies. And dont give me this bull shit that GG will attack vader when Crush is INSTANT

Originally posted by Rampant ox


Just so you know, EU Greivous has experienced a force crush and it had had very little effect. Also the crush was performed by Mace Windu, an extremely powerful force user who wouldnt be far off Vaders force skill and power. Greivous walked away with nothing but a cough. Now, with this in mind, Vaders force prowess is going to have little effect in this fight. Just to let you know mace windu does not master dark side powers while vader did which allowed vader to destroy machines the size of an AT-AT walker with no effort at all, why? Because vader uses rage, he uses anger and he uses raw power in a way that he doesnt run wild with his emotions blinding him. Do i have to pull you that lightsaber quote again? which has completely destroyed your arguements of even saying dooku > vader in lightsaber combat?
Not to forget vader KILLS his opponent with what ever moves he is using, weather its grip, crush, even a push which caused a massive dent.


By the way, A battle field tank is 10x the size of GG and if vader could dispose of one in a matter of seconds dont you think he can do the same to GG? Especially if GG CANNOT and will not use the force?

O and how bout this, vader has been known to suspend his opponents in the air as he did to the jedi in the purge, then couldnt he keep bashing GG on the ground?

End of story

I think you are wrong on several different levels there Kadesh but ill argue the point in the morning. Night all.

LOL, based on the polls, I am concluding Rampant is the only one who voted that Grievous pwns!!!



Quote please. Just to make sure. And it's a clear exaggeration. 16 times per second! Than Grievous must move faster than LOTF Luke!!!

?

He threw a pillar (which is like 30 ft tall) back while running. Not even stopping.



Nevertheless, he's exaggerated.



Sorry, exaggerated.

Darth Sith, Clone Wars is an exaggeration:

Yoda: Lifted up a huge tank, threw it in a ship, lifted the ship, and crashed it into another ship. Trust me, it's way out ofYodas power range.
Mace: If you've seen anything with Mace, you'll know. Punching through armies of droids, hijacking a ship using hid lightsaber and grabbing some wires, jumping and surviving what looks like a kilometer....
Asajj: Throws a huge pillar with the force, kils off clones with the force.
Anakin: Throws a pillar, weighing more than the pod Sidious threw at Yoda, and traveling faster, uphill without slowing it's momentum first, while charging, using a simple two- fingered push.
Obi Wan: Drops from a ridiculously high height (along with Anakin) to go kill a massive amount of droids.
Greivous: Look at him. There's no way he's not an exaggeration. Especially given the nature of the show.

Also, other characters such as Kit, Luminara, Barris, and many others were shown in a similar fashion(and Commander Cody and Durge, to a lesser degree). Characters durability is also unfathomable at some points.

I've admitted that these are exaggerations.

Yes, however, Sdiious thorw not one but three pods at the same time, and I'd like to see some proof that the pillar weighs more than one pod.

How is that not possible? Though I have thought of a time when Kenobi is over exaggerated. After the ARC's take over that huge gun on Muunilist and Kenobi jumps off his speeder and lands up there with them.

So in otherwords every single f*cking Grievous is an exaggeration except ROTS Grieovus, then.

No! CW Grievous is an exaggeration. LOE Grievous is not an exaggeration (except the line where you claimed it said his sabers move 16 per second). ROTS Grievous is not an exaggeration. It's ridiculous how with one Force Crush, a CW highly powered Grievous turns into a ROTS Grievous who gets owned by Kenobi.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
No! CW Grievous is an exaggeration. LOE Grievous is not an exaggeration (except the line where you claimed it said his sabers move 16 per second). ROTS Grievous is not an exaggeration. It's ridiculous how with one Force Crush, a CW highly powered Grievous turns into a ROTS Grievous who gets owned by Kenobi.
Again, CW Grievous is identical to LOE Grievous! What part don't you get about that?! If one is overexaggerated then they both are, and so if every single Grievous besides ROTS Grievous!

All right, CW Mace is identical to Shatterpoint Mace or LOE Mace. I gues CW Mace can mutilate Grievous since he took an entire army and he probably punch Grievous to death. CW Grievous is same as LOE Grievous in terms of character. In terms of how they show each others powers, they're totally different because CW Grievous seems to be more powerful.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
LOL, based on the polls, I am concluding Rampant is the only one who voted that Grievous pwns!!!

No, I voted that GG wins with difficulty. Athough I am starting to think that the General would pwn this fight.

Well it's currenty 7-3 in Vader's favor though whoever posted Grievous pwns must be joking......

In a saber fight, Darth Vader doesn't have the speed to keep up with General Grievous, nor the skill to take him out. He's not winning.

However, taking out Grievous with the force wouldn't be beyond Vader, a nice force crush should give him the quick win.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
All right, CW Mace is identical to Shatterpoint Mace or LOE Mace. I gues CW Mace can mutilate Grievous since he took an entire army and he probably punch Grievous to death. CW Grievous is same as LOE Grievous in terms of character. In terms of how they show each others powers, they're totally different because CW Grievous seems to be more powerful.
The thing is CW Mace performed feats that Shatterpoint and LOE Mace are incapable of. CW Grievous didn't do anything LOE Grievous or Grievous from the Grievous comics couldn't do. Therefor Grievous is the same but Mace is not.

Originally posted by The Planet
In a saber fight, Darth Vader doesn't have the speed to keep up with General Grievous, nor the skill to take him out. He's not winning.

However, taking out Grievous with the force wouldn't be beyond Vader, a nice force crush should give him the quick win.

Actually vader does, he could fence of the attacks from 8 jedi masters with 1 hand while using the force with another hand

speed is not the biggest factor in a fight, it helps, but Vader is good enough to not have to be fast. Saying he doesn't have the skill is absolutely ridiculous. Have you ever seen or heard of Darth Vader? Do you not know what he's capable of? GG stands no chance at this.

In most cases id agree with you Subjekt, vader doesnt have to be fast to be powerful But I think this fight is an exception. Greivous wields not one but 4 blades. This in itself would give Vader an extremely difficult time. Then factor in the fact that Greivous uses these blased at lightning speeds, as shown in his fight with ROTS Kenobi. Then add the fact that General Greivous is already physically stronger than Vader. There is no way in hell that Vader is winning a lightsaber fight.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
In most cases id agree with you Subjekt, vader doesnt have to be fast to be powerful But I think this fight is an exception. Greivous wields not one but 4 blades. This in itself would give Vader an extremely difficult time. Then factor in the fact that Greivous uses these blased at lightning speeds, as shown in his fight with ROTS Kenobi. Then add the fact that General Greivous is already physically stronger than Vader. There is no way in hell that Vader is winning a lightsaber fight. i can change that if i said that vader parried the attacks of 8 jedi masters and remember that he has the force to enhance his strength which will make him a god at strength even surpassing yoda, why? as himself his strength is incredible and what if he enhanced it with the force? yoda did that and his physical strength triumphs over sidious, imagine what vader would be

Originally posted by Kadesh
i can change that if i said that vader parried the attacks of 8 jedi masters and remember that he has the force to enhance his strength which will make him a god at strength

Those jedi masters sucked sh*t and you know it. Also I dont recall them all attacking him simultaneously - which is basically what GG's 4 blades will do. And dont feed me that force enhanced strength bullsh*t. I dont ever recall Vader using a technique of that sort, so all you have is an unsupported theory.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Those jedi masters sucked sh*t and you know it. Also I dont recall them all attacking him simultaneously - which is basically what GG's 4 blades will do. And dont feed me that force enhanced strength bullsh*t. I dont ever recall Vader using a technique of that sort, so all you have is an unsupported theory. Wrong, tsui choi was as fast as yoda, and all of them were attacking him madly. And an unsupported theory? wrong, Vader is capable of doing alot of things as he has proven in the battlefield. By the way, bulter swan was strong enough to survive AOTC, sia lan wezz was a decent jedi knight and being able to defend naboo at the age of 15. And lets not forget they actually prepared for this.

Dont give excuses "0 v@d3r nvR Sh0w !t s000 it m3@n H3 DuN H@v3 !t"
especially when he is capable of doing such things,

Time i pull out the quote which will hand you your ass as it did in the dooku vs vader saber match

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.

He apparently learned his lesson from his duel with Kenobi, learning how to control his emotions when in combat and finding a way to call upon calculated bursts of the dark side while not being blinded by emotions running amok.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Wrong, tsui choi was as fast as yoda, and all of them were attacking him madly. And an unsupported theory? wrong, Vader is capable of doing alot of things as he has proven in the battlefield. By the way, bulter swan was strong enough to survive AOTC, sia lan wezz was a decent jedi knight and being able to defend naboo at the age of 15. And lets not forget they actually prepared for this.

Fighting 8 weak jedi at once is quite different from fighting an elite killing cyborg. I practise Karate, and I can easily beat 4 or 5 low belts at once. However I get my ass handed to me everytime when Ihave to fight the sensei (teacher). Same sort of principles apply. Vader is good, and kudos to him for winning. Hardly means he will beat GG though.

(Also didnt Vader get badly pwned in that fight against the 8 jedi despite winning, or am I thinking of something else?)



Jesus titty f*cking christ. Vader (to my knowledge) has never empowered himself physically through the force before. Provide me a quote or example on where he does and I will happily eat my words. But just saying/assuming he does means nothing in a debate. By your logic I could say that C3P0 knows force crush, and just because we havent seen him use it doesnt mean he cant. See how that is ridiculous?




And? You use this quote often, yet it doesnt really prove anything. The droids were faster and stronger than an ordinary man. Luke isnt faster nor stronger than an ordinary man, yet he put Vader on his ass (literally). Luke doesnt have the knowledge of hundred sword masters yet he was easily able to keep up with and outduel Vader in ROTJ. Now if ROTJ Luke can do this, I see no reason at all why EU GG cant - only to a much higher and deadlier degree.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Fighting 8 weak jedi at once is quite different from fighting an elite killing cyborg. I practise Karate, and I can easily beat 4 or 5 low belts at once. However I get my ass handed to me everytime when Ihave to fight the sensei (teacher). Same sort of principles apply. Vader is good, and kudos to him for winning. Hardly means he will beat GG though.

(Also didnt Vader get badly pwned in that fight against the 8 jedi despite winning, or am I thinking of something else?)
Yes he got pwned, the time when he is still inexperience and when he got BACKSTABBED

and you have yet to prove that those 8 jedi were weak, especially when tsui choi is as fast as yoda and those jedi have prove themselves, You hate vader dont you,




Originally posted by Rampant ox

And? You use this quote often, yet it doesnt really prove anything. The droids were faster and stronger than an ordinary man. Luke isnt faster nor stronger than an ordinary man, yet he put Vader on his ass (literally). Luke doesnt have the knowledge of hundred sword masters yet he was easily able to keep up with and outduel Vader in ROTJ. Now if ROTJ Luke can do this, I see no reason at all why EU GG cant - only to a much higher and deadlier degree. Yes it does, isnt grievious a droid? By the way, luke mirroed vaders own version of Form V and it proved how powerful vaders djem so is, that it could even put its user on his ass, and lets not forget that vader was ORDERED not to kill luke and that luke was his son.

I love it when people use luke as an excuse when they are losing an arguement, i have seen this so many times, vader vs tyranus etc, maul vs vader, vader runs the gauntlet

Originally posted by Kadesh
and you have yet to prove that those 8 jedi were weak, especially when tsui choi is as fast as yoda and those jedi have prove themselves, You hate vader dont you,

Ok, those jedi weren't weak as such, but were in comparison to the lead jedi and sith of the movies. Also Tsui Choi out duelled Vader, even managing to cut his hand off. Proving that vader didnt have enough speed to keep up with him. Admit it, Vader could have and would have been defeated that day had the stormtroopers not arrived.

And no I dont hate Vader. I think he is an awesome character, but I personally think you give him far more credit than he deserves.



So are you saying that because Luke used Form V, he was able to topple Vader (physically)? Great. Greivous has knowledge of all the forms, wields the blades faster and has more physical strength than Luke. There is also the nice fact he has 4 blades. Now, through logical deduction and common sense, there is no way in hell Vader can contend with Greivous in a pure lightsaber duel.



Fair enough. But im sure getting put on your ass and having your hand hacked off was not part of Vaders plan. Luke outduelled Vader, simple as that.



What are you saying exactly? that vaders battles with Luke are irrelevant? Great, so I could say that Dooku's fight with Anakin is irrelevant because I dont like the outcome. Give me a break.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Ok, those jedi weren't weak as such, but were in comparison to the lead jedi and sith of the movies. Also Tsui Choi out duelled Vader, even managing to cut his hand off. Proving that vader didnt have enough speed to keep up with him. Admit it, Vader could have and would have been defeated that day had the stormtroopers not arrived.
Yea, he lost his hand when he got distracted, we are talking about 8 jedi masters, not 1. So is it safe to assume that dooku lost his arm when he isnt fast enough? no. Yes vader would have died, we are talking about a sith who has only started his training 4 weeks after ROTS and still display amazing and remarkable skills, imagine what TESB vader could do




Originally posted by Rampant ox

So are you saying that because Luke used Form V, he was able to topple Vader (physically)? Great. Greivous has knowledge of all the forms, wields the blades faster and has more physical strength than Luke. There is also the nice fact he has 4 blades. Now, through logical deduction and common sense, there is no way in hell Vader can contend with Greivous in a pure lightsaber duel.
No, luke demonstrated vaders own form of djem so, and started attacking furiously which is what put him on his ass? you are using a>b>c so how about this, obi wan beat GG and vader beat obi wan, There is something called a saber lock my friend, and notice that obi wan executes cho mai alot? Just to let you know vader does that alot of times and there is also the force to tell you which arm will strike first.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Fair enough. But im sure getting put on your ass and having your hand hacked off was not part of Vaders plan. Luke outduelled Vader, simple as that.
That vader was restrained because he was fighting his own son? that palpatine ordered him not to kill luke, that vader underestimated luke because he won before?


What are you saOriginally posted by Rampant ox
ying exactly? that vaders battles with Luke are irrelevant? Great, so I could say that Dooku's fight with Anakin is irrelevant because I dont like the outcome. Give me a break. Not exactl irrelevant, and by the way, Dooku did underestimated anakin and was over confident which led him to his defeat, the same happened to vader

Originally posted by Kadesh
Yea, he lost his hand when he got distracted, we are talking about 8 jedi masters, not 1. So is it safe to assume that dooku lost his arm when he isnt fast enough? no. Yes vader would have died, we are talking about a sith who has only started his training 4 weeks after ROTS and still display amazing and remarkable skills, imagine what TESB vader could do

What im saying is that because Vader won (barely and with the help of troopers) hardly means he will be able to defeat Greivous. To many factors apply.




Its not really an A>B>C argument. Greivous is leagues above Luke. Luke can beat Vader. Now, logically speaking, Greivous should be able to beat Vader as well. Also Obi-wan was out of practice and let himself be killed by Vader. Hardly the same thing.



Doesnt GG's computer programming make all of his moves random and unpredictable - sort of like Vapaad? Could be wrong on that though. Cho Mai is irrelevant, Vader soesnt have anywhere near the speed to execute a move like that. For every limb GG loses its Mustafar all over again for Vader.



Lol, this sounds familiar. Just like what happened in ROTS between Anakin and Dooku. Dooku was told not to kill Anakin, Dooku underestimated Anakin etc etc. yet you would be one of the first to tell me that Anakin won fair and square. Sounds like double standards to me.



See above. Dooku lost fair and square, you enjoy reminding me of that every time the argument comes up. Yet here you are, blatantly saying something different to suit your argument. Give me a break. Sounds like you have a different set of logic for each debate.

vader has the force, grevius has the speed, and up to five sabers at once, but vader would relise grevisus' weakness

But before it is to late? Greivous has already shown to be very resistant to the force - literally dodging force pushes and walking away from Mace's force crush with nothing more than a cough. I doubt that the force will save Vader this time.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
But before it is to late? Greivous has already shown to be very resistant to the force - literally dodging force pushes and walking away from Mace's force crush with nothing more than a cough. I doubt that the force will save Vader this time. What differences does it make if vader can destroy an entire tank on the battlefield. Resistant to the force? you forget mace DOES NOT and will not use rage while using a dark side power, vader make sure his opponents get killed

He has used force crush once that I can think of. This hardly makes him a master of the move and hardly means he can pull it off in the middle of an intense fight. If this move is as godly as you make it out to be, why didnt he kill the emperor with it? Why didnt he kill any random s.o.b with it? I can think of two reasons. A) It is not as good as you make it out to be, there fore will not kill Greivous or B) He doesnt have the skills necessary to execute the move willy nilly. I am leaning towards the latter.

Originally posted by Kadesh
What differences does it make if vader can destroy an entire tank on the battlefield.

And this is demonstrated where, exactly?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
He has used force crush once that I can think of. This hardly makes him a master of the move and hardly means he can pull it off in the middle of an intense fight. If this move is as godly as you make it out to be, why didnt he kill the emperor with it? Why didnt he kill any random s.o.b with it? I can think of two reasons. A) It is not as good as you make it out to be, there fore will not kill Greivous or B) He doesnt have the skills necessary to execute the move willy nilly. I am leaning towards the latter. says who? there is something called backing up a distance then executing the force power. And force powers has been shown to be executed DURING BATTLE. Again, you make GG sound so godly, if so, then why was he WTF pwned with a blaster and WTF pwned by obi wan

why didnt he use it on the emperor? because the emperor knows a defence?

And doesnt have the skills to do it? READ UP ON IT, its an upgraded version of force grip,

o? anc couldnt Vader suspend GG in the air as he suspended tsui choi? then bash GGon th ground time and again?

o rampant, i forgot to add this, Vader too uses his sorroundings to kill his opponents and dont attempt to say its bull shit when he has demonstrated this several times in both the movies and the EU


To counter fast-moving opponents, he would use the Force to pull out anything from his surroundings and fling the improvised missiles at his opponent. Without moving a muscle, anything from the venue of the battle could be used as a weapon to crash against Vader's opponents from all directions in a never-ending barrage

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, however, Sdiious thorw not one but three pods at the same time, and I'd like to see some proof that the pillar weighs more than one pod.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lq60e6doiDo&mode=related&search=

If you're in a hurry...
The huge logs as 1:25 are a clear exaggeration, as is Asajj's jump at 1:45, Anakins jump at 1:53, their battle in the trees starting at 2:21 is not within padawan Anakin's skill level, and Asajj's jump at 3:17 is ridiculous.

The pillar I was talking about is in this one... but first, Anakins jump at 1:15, Asajj being unphased by the fall she took at 1:24. Okay, I was wrong about the pillar thing... Anakin uses a whole hand. Look at 2:12. No padawan is that powerful to push back that thing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0R2mf7JfyJ4&mode=related&search=

Unless you want to argue that that pillar was hollow...

Last I checked, Anakin was no ordinary Padawan. Ventress wasn't your ordinary warrior either, so her surviving a long fall shouldn't be too surprising, especially when we see young Obi-Wan and Darth Maul take equally - if not greater - falls and remain unhurt.

Well, the huge rock to the back would have killed most people...

You didn't watch them, did you?

Take a looksie then tell me that hitting that rock would do no damage, and that those feats could be achieved by Anakin at that point in time.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lq60e6doiDo&mode=related&search=

If you're in a hurry...
The huge logs as 1:25 are a clear exaggeration, as is Asajj's jump at 1:45, Anakins jump at 1:53, their battle in the trees starting at 2:21 is not within padawan Anakin's skill level, and Asajj's jump at 3:17 is ridiculous.

The pillar I was talking about is in this one... but first, Anakins jump at 1:15, Asajj being unphased by the fall she took at 1:24. Okay, I was wrong about the pillar thing... Anakin uses a whole hand. Look at 2:12. No padawan is that powerful to push back that thing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0R2mf7JfyJ4&mode=related&search=

Unless you want to argue that that pillar was hollow...
Great. Now provide proof that the pillar is heavier than a Senate pod.

Visual proof...

Anyway, Yoda showed strain in stopping one senate pod that was hurled at him at a slower rate than this (heavier) pillar, while Anakin didn't break stride.

Are those Clone Wars cartoons?

Anyways, Yoda > Anakin in the Force. He's just got more mastery of it, Jollyjim. More refinement.

Didn't realise that the weight of an object was determined through vision...

Originally posted by The Planet
Didn't realise that the weight of an object was determined through vision...
Lol.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Well, the huge rock to the back would have killed most people...
Good thing Jedi and Sith are "most people."


I've watched every single one, actually.


The rock wouldn't kill a good Force-user, which Asajj most definitely was, and although the size of the pillar is undoubtedly more than Anakin should have been able to quickly toss back, it's not impossible that he could do so.

You'll also note that I never claimed the cartoons were valid - simply that Anakin was no ordinary Padawan.

Just to let you know CW characters are overhyped and ridiculously over powered, take CW mace for example. Some people claim he is on the level of LOTF luke