The Flaws of Roman Catholicism

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Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins.

We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

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I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Ummm... technically most Christian denomination/sects have cross symbolism.



Umm... technically all Christian faiths have a hierarchy in them.



Ummm... Technically while Mary is a respected figure in Catholic doctrine she is not viewed as "higher then God" - since she is the mother of Jesus (not God) and God is her Creator and father...



Ummm... Technically there are already threads on this subject, and I fear you only have a very basic knowledge of Catholic doctrine (and clearly Christian doctrine in general if you think Christianity in general does not have ritualistic aspects and its fair share of lies.)

FeceMan
This must be the JIA-bot who posts shorter-than-three-page-posts that are naught but blue (or, more recently, red) bolded rhetoric and, more likely than not, full of hooey.

Up In Flames
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm... technically most Christian denomination/sects have cross symbolism.

No. Christians of the Gospel do not. We know better.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Umm... technically all Christian faiths have a hierarchy in them.

No. The preacher's purpose is to spread the word. He is as equal as the congregation

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm... Technically while Mary is a respected figure in Catholic doctrine she is not viewed as "higher then God" - since she is the mother of Jesus (not God) and God is her Creator and father...

Explain to me why they say "Hail Mary, mother of God...."

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm... Technically there are already threads on this subject, and I fear you only have a very basic knowledge of Catholic doctrine (and clearly Christian doctrine in general if you think Christianity in general does not have ritualistic aspects and its fair share of lies.)

Yes, I do have only basic knowledge of Catholicism, but on my dad's behalf, I can testify to how sidetracked it is. He used to be a Catholic but he converted to true Christianity (Gospel Brethren) after finding that there were so many things wrong.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Up In Flames
No. Christians of the Gospel do not. We know better.

Ummm... what Church do you belong to that doesn't have a cross on display, isn't led by priests or Cardinals (Protestants) or someone who stands up before you and preaches?



No he isn't. His has a religious rank that sets him apart from the congregation. Theoretically he is one of them, but he is educated in Church doctrine and meant to be a teach to the flock. Or a Shepard. Yes, a Shepard is equal to his sheep, isn't he?



And? That proves what? That Mary is a significant symbol in their interpretation to faith. Having a Catholic mother I can't remember the rest of that hymn going "Hail Mary, mother of God, you are superior"

To my knowledge it goes "Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen. "

The Lord is with thee? Hmmm. Points out how blessed she was to birth Jesus - AH - pray for us sinners. As in "pray for us" - funny, most Christians sects and denominations I know of can say things like "and now let us pray for" or "please, pray for" - strange, sounds to me they are just asking her to pray for them, not that she is where the prayer stops, nor that she has power to act upon it.



Gospel Brethren? Obviously not Plymouth Brethren, otherwise you wouldn't be allowed to use the computer.

Up In Flames
Well, I belong to the Gospel Church. The same church Martin Luthor was a part of. Our preachers spread the good word - they serve the congregation, not the other way round.

If you dont believe me on my views of catholicism, pick up a bible and read it. I assure you, the truth is there.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm... what Church do you belong to that doesn't have a cross on display, isn't led by priests or Cardinals (Protestants) or someone who stands up before you and preaches?


Hmmm...I don't think the cross itself is what Up in Flames was objecting to(correct me if I'm wrong though Mr. Flames). Rather -- the objection was over the *worship* of the cross, and its idolised representation within Catholicism(something that many Protestantism denominations are also guilty of).

Regarding your second assertion -- you are somewhat correct. Most churches(Christian) do have some form of leadership within them, however, there is a distinct difference between one leading and being worshiped -- particularly when one who *claims* to lead -- also *claims* to have *unquestionable* authority given to them by God(Like the Pope), *claims* to be a direct intermediary between the people and God(Like the Pope), and sits a top of a Gold encrusted throne -- with individuals bowing down before them(Like the Pope).

Any human making such *claims* -- or receiving such veneration, is either grossly misrepresenting, or grossly misinterpreting the Christian doctrine(and in many cases purposefully doing so -- to maintain some sort of power over those they're preaching to).


Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
No he isn't. His has a religious rank that sets him apart from the congregation. Theoretically he is one of them, but he is educated in Church doctrine and meant to be a teach to the flock. Or a Shepard. Yes, a Shepard is equal to his sheep, isn't he?



Ummm..after Christ's death and ressurection, there is no man(save Christ), who acts as a direct intermediary, between mankind and "The Father." We are all considered *sheep* under "The Son"(Christ) -- or for the sake of this argument, we are all considered *sheep* under the watch of one the good *Shepard*(Christ).

So to simplify -- in laman's terms -- all *priests*(including the Pope) are considered no more than *sheep*-- under the loving watch of The "Good Shepard"(Who is Christ).

Still -- priests do indeed hold a leadership role within Christ's church. Although not *Shepards* -- they are considered the "Rams" of the flock, assisting the *Shepard* in maintaining order, protecting, and keeping the flock on the trail the *Shepard*(Christ) is guiding them on.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And? That proves what? That Mary is a significant symbol in their interpretation to faith. Having a Catholic mother I can't remember the rest of that hymn going "Hail Mary, mother of God, you are superior"

To my knowledge it goes "Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen. "


And? What does this prove? Well for starters, Let me just say that Mary was/is a wonderful example of a Godly woman. There is no denying this. Possibly one of the most righteous humans in existence(be they male or female) That still does not take away from the fact -- that she was/is only human -- and that she was/is a sinner.

The problem arises in the prayer above, when Mary is referenced as being *Holy* within it. Many(like myself) argue that *Holy* in this particular context -- is representative of one who is worthy of worship and/or veneration. It would indeed seem that this is the case, particularly since Mary is asked to be an intermediary between the "Father" and mankind with the phrase "pray for us sinners."

So we are left with two direct contradictions to scripture in this prayer. The first one being the deifying of Mary -- by referring to her as *Holy*(which insinuates that she is without sin -- or some sort of God).
The second, the replacement of Jesus with Mary -- as the intermediary between the "Father" and mankind.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
The Lord is with thee? Hmmm. Points out how blessed she was to birth Jesus - AH - pray for us sinners. As in "pray for us" - funny, most Christians sects and denominations I know of can say things like "and now let us pray for" or "please, pray for" - strange, sounds to me they are just asking her to pray for them, not that she is where the prayer stops, nor that she has power to act upon it.


Again -- it's not the "please, pray for" that many object to. It's the direct reference to Mary being *Holy* -- along with the subtle insinuation that Mary is a *Holy* intermediary to God, and is without sin. Remember -- Mary was/is human herself, she was/is just as much of a sinner as the next one(despite being a very righteous woman).

As a whole -- I believe that Catholicism does have some merit to it, as it has assisted over many centuries - in spreading the scriptures across the world. Still - one cannot disregard the obvious paganistic practices within its doctrine. Those who are Catholic Christians, must be made aware of the direct contradictions to the scriptures these practices contain, and their true sinful nature.

Gregory
Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

They are not worshipping the cross, however.



"Apart from Jesus?" Somebody a little confused about the whole Trinity thing? Anyway, 'And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."'



Bollocks. Unless you want to take all the books of Paul out of the Bible, on the grounds that he didn't have the authority to order communities around? Actually, that might be a good idea.



Since you haven't seen fit to include an argument here, there's not much to respond too.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol. You worship Kent Hovind.
Originally posted by Up In Flames
Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins. But confessing to a vicar is okay?
Originally posted by Up In Flames
We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us. Their are protestant bishops and preists aswell. In fact, the Queen of England is head of the Anglican Church and is treated the same as the pope.
Originally posted by Up In Flames
Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong. Isn't Jesus said to be God?
Originally posted by Up In Flames
I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry. Not as sorry as I am for the people in your neighborhood.

Regret
Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol. Symbols are not idols. Idols as referenced in the second commandment is a physical representation of a God. The cross is a symbol of an event and represents the sacrifice of Christ for man. Symbols are present throughout the Bible. The veil of the Temple, the bronze serpent, the arc and its contents were all symbolic items, the tallit, tzitzit, telfillin, and others.Originally posted by Up In Flames
Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins. The practice of intercession by figures of authority is present throughout the Bible. Prior to Christ's death, the lay clergy needed the priests to intercede between them and God to attain forgiveness of sin in the form of sacrifice, a lay person was unable to offer such sacrifices, it required a priest. Please provide support for a belief that Christ ever claimed that such intercession was ever ended. I do not believe that anywhere in the Bible it supports your claim here, the Bible supports personal prayer, but it does not claim an end to the authority of priests.Originally posted by Up In Flames
We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us. This is blatantly wrong. Christ himself created a hierarchy, the Apostles and seventy were the authorities in the church. Biblical precedent places importance on this hierarchy with the Apostles going so far as to ordain replacements in the New Testament. There is no Biblical support for an end to the hierarchy, and the absence of the hierarchy in leadership as Christ set up is imo a flaw in the organization of the Catholic church.Originally posted by Up In Flames
Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong. Such is not the view of the Catholics, although they believe the honor of having birthed Christ is a great blessing that no other will ever receive. Catholics do hold Mary in high esteem. While I believe they go overboard with it, Mary and Joseph were Christ's parents and possibly the only people to greatly impact the mortal life of Christ, as such it must be assumed they were exemplary individuals.Originally posted by Up In Flames
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I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry. If there is a true Christian religion, it is most probable that the Catholic church would be the true Christian denomination. All others that do not claim divine intervention as impetus, are man's beliefs as to how a Christian religion should be and not necessarily the proper form and belief that worship should take. I am not offended, but your flaws are rather poor.

Council#13
Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins.

We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

-------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry.

1. The cross is the symbol on which Christ died upon. We worship Christ, who was the human form of God.
2. I agree, but it makes things a lot easier to have a human being who serves God to be able to listen.
3. The bishops and the Pope maintain order in God's church. And since when has everyone been equal in this world? The rich gain all the benefits in Christian countries.
4. Mary is the mother of Christ, whom, as I have stated before, is the human form of God.

Strangelove
...are infinite no expression

FeceMan
You know, I hate to say this, but Christians really ought to put aside the differences in their doctrines on KMC and, you know, stick together. Everyone else seems to.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
You know, I hate to say this, but Christians really ought to put aside the differences in their doctrines on KMC and, you know, stick together. Everyone else seems to.

I've said similar before - I mean it is no wonder Christianity is in decline in some places when it can't even keep from self cannibalising:

Person 1: Catholics aren't Christian because they are different.
Person 2: You're wrong. Mormons, JW, Brethren, Orthodox are also unchristian because they too are different.
Person 3: Well, I'm Catholic, and part of the first and only true Christian faith. Everyone else strayed from the path and aren't real Christians.
Person 4: Well I believe Guru Sahiv is Jesus reincarnated and his reborn faith is the only true Christian faith. Everyone else is wrong, because Guru Sahiv who is Jesus says so.

And so on.



Then once again I level the claim of ignorance of Catholic perceptions. Because when it comes to crosses they are no different then other Christian faiths. The cross is a symbol relevant to Jesus. To say that Catholics (and apparently many Protestants) worship it is, I fear, laughable. To be honest I would like you, or anybody, to present something claim from actual people that they worship or idolise the cross.

Because you see there is a different in believing the cross is a symbol, a grounding point, and believing it is divine. It is as bad as the old "Egyptians worshipped cult images."



Regardless it is hypocritical to claim the Catholic Church is flawed because it has a hierarchy when all Christians faiths have one. They are all different usually, but a hierarchy is a hierarchy. And any study of religious history will show that clergy, of any Christian faith, are usually treated with deference and more respect. In theory they may be equal as humans, but socially they most certainly are not. Why so many people would automatically claim they would save a priest of a sinking ship.

And let us not forget other high figures - the Mormon Prophet for example, who is claimed to be in contact with God.



Then the majority of Christians denominations/sects are wrong and grossly misinterpreting the Bible. Because each of those faiths will say they are Biblically justified and their practices are based upon sound, correct, Biblical interpretation, or divine contact. Because you see... when religion is as vague and your God is aloof and doesn't feel like telling people who is right no one Christian has a monopoly on the truth. You could be right, or wrong. How is that for yah?



*Cough*Mormon Prophet*cough*

In your eyes there is no man who acts as an intermediary. Sadly your eyes aren't God. Nor the authority on the subject.



And there are priests who believe they are mortal followers on Jesus path of shepard-hood. Don't misrepresent it as them believing they are Jesus - but they believe they are performing a similar task - educating them and trying to get them saved, just as Jesus did, and just as Jesus told his followers to keep doing.



Ummm - where in the prayer does it claim she was a Godly women? It seems to be stating what is fact for a Christian - she mothered God. Wouldn't it be a lie to claim any different? I mean - that is what she did if you believe it.



Silly. Once again we have a misconception - Catholics do not worship Mary as a God, or anything approaching a God. They do respect her however, and they recognise she was given one of the greatest, most blessed tasks from God. Thus they believe she is likely in Heaven. Thus they believe she is a conduit to God. Just like the Apostles were conduits to Jesus, through which his power was spread on Earth, and perhaps after.

I see no problem with her being seen as an intermediary - I mean, otherwise a priest should not be allowed to ask us to pray for others. I mean, how outrageous, who does he think he is. Clearly a heretic. You have to pray straight to God and only for yourself. Heaven forbid you think you, a mortal, can act as an intermediary for others by praying on their behalf!



Deifying means making one a God. Mary was never deified. Given a Sainthood, that is being recognised as a Holy Soldier of Christ essentially. I never heard a Catholic claim Mary was without sin. Merely that she was honored by God by being Jesus mother. Which is vastly different to the claim she is somehow "a God herself in the eyes of Catholics"



How is asking her to pray for us being Holy? I mean really - praying to her, that is the prayer stopping with her rather then being delivered up the chain to God would make her holy. That isn't happening. She is being asked to pray for us, just as a priest will ask his followers to "pray for our soldiers in Iraq", to "pray for the victims of the tsunami" - intermediary status does not equate divine status - except in the eyes of those who want to object to someones faith and are looking for justification.



Yet they don't think they are interpretting the scripture wrong - only others of other faiths do. Which is the same old same old. There are followers of any Christian group who will find a problem with all the Christian faiths that are not their own.

And chance are, if you are a Christian, any type of Christian, your particular brand of faith is likely going to have Pagan practices in it somewhere.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then once again I level the claim of ignorance of Catholic perceptions. Because when it comes to crosses they are no different then other Christian faiths. The cross is a symbol relevant to Jesus. To say that Catholics (and apparently many Protestants) worship it is, I fear, laughable. To be honest I would like you, or anybody, to present something claim from actual people that they worship or idolise the cross.


Ah - But you see, the representations of the cross are not the problem. Rather - it's the act of worship of the *object* itself(as well as the figurine representing Jesus on it), that is the issue. I believe this is what Mr. Flames was referring to(Correct me if I'm wrong though Mr. Flames).

Of course it is okay to have decorative representations of biblical figurines and symbols within the church - but one must never have the same type of reverence for these figurines or objects, as they do for God(Christ) himself.

This reverence and veneration given to inanimate objects - is a huge problem in Catholicism(and some other Christian denominations) - seeing as how many Catholics pray to wooden *idols* of Mary, Jesus, and his disciples(The Saints) regularly. And it goes directly against the type of worship that Christ taught(within the scriptures).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Because you see there is a different in believing the cross is a symbol, a grounding point, and believing it is divine. It is as bad as the old "Egyptians worshipped cult images."


Grossly incorrect. The cross itself is not *divine* - however the lamb(Jesus) and the selfless sacrifice that was performed(involving his Crucifixion) is. Christ didn't die for our sins - so that we could bow down to inanimate objects, he died for the salvation of makind.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Regardless it is hypocritical to claim the Catholic Church is flawed because it has a hierarchy when all Christians faiths have one. They are all different usually, but a hierarchy is a hierarchy. And any study of religious history will show that clergy, of any Christian faith, are usually treated with deference and more respect. In theory they may be equal as humans, but socially they most certainly are not. Why so many people would automatically claim they would save a priest of a sinking ship.


I now understand why so many individuals have problems relating to Christianity, it is quite obvious that many do not even want to adress unscriptural behaviours being practiced - and simply want to damage the credibility of the Christian they are arguing with, to exalt and/or justify their own personal biases(and agendas) against Christianity.

non Christian: It is hypocritical to say that the Catholic Church has many pagan practices - because all Christain Churches have Pagan practices.

Christian: It is not hypocritical to express something that goes directly against scripture - or to state things that go directly against scripture - regardless of one's denomination. It is only hypocritical if one denies such practices existing - and they themselves engage in such practices.

non Christian: You are a hypocrite - because you admitted that other Christian denominations have paganistic rituals. And you are now being judgemental -- doesn't the bible say not to judge?

And on..and on..

Anyway - as I've already stated. Being a leader within the church - does not make one a teacher, and does not make one a shephard. As Christ stated himself - there is only one teacher, and there is only one shephard, and we are all under his flock. Each person of the flock has a different role or position, however, they are still but a sheep among many(Be they great or small).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And let us not forget other high figures - the Mormon Prophet for example, who is claimed to be in contact with God.


*Eherm* claiming *erhem* to have contact with God -- does not make what one has said to be true. I have varied thoughts about Mormonism -and its doctrine, and will resign my opinion of it for now(since the topic of this thread is Catholicism).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then the majority of Christians denominations/sects are wrong and grossly misinterpreting the Bible. Because each of those faiths will say they are Biblically justified and their practices are based upon sound, correct, Biblical interpretation, or divine contact. Because you see... when religion is as vague and your God is aloof and doesn't feel like telling people who is right no one Christian has a monopoly on the truth. You could be right, or wrong. How is that for yah?


Umm..the *truth* always stays absolute - regardless of subjective individual interpretation. Because one denomination(or individual) might interpret the *truth* within the scriptures incorrectly -- it does not make them all incorrect. This is truly a very silly argument you have presented here sir.

I would like to see you go to Microbiologist and profess -

"Because spontaneous generation has been proven false - every scientific finding regarding evolution - or derived from scientists who believed in spontaneous generation is incorrect."

I'm sure they would find such a claim greatly laudable..He..he..He..(Just so you know..I'm being sarcastic).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
In your eyes there is no man who acts as an intermediary. Sadly your eyes aren't God. Nor the authority on the subject.


In John 14:6 Jesus states "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except through me."

There is no man save Christ(who is the Son and God himself) who acts as an intermediary between mankind and the Father. Any denomination(or individual) who claims otherwise - is directly contradicting the word(Jesus).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And there are priests who believe they are mortal followers on Jesus path of shepard-hood. Don't misrepresent it as them believing they are Jesus - but they believe they are performing a similar task - educating them and trying to get them saved, just as Jesus did, and just as Jesus told his followers to keep doing.


Again - as Christ informed his disciples before his crucifixion, there is only one shephard. Anyone else who claims to be a shephard within their church is either grossly misinformed or a liar - and is greatly misrepresenting the scriptures as Jesus taught them.


Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ummm - where in the prayer does it claim she was a Godly women? It seems to be stating what is fact for a Christian - she mothered God. Wouldn't it be a lie to claim any different? I mean - that is what she did if you believe it.


Silly. Once again we have a misconception - Catholics do not worship Mary as a God, or anything approaching a God. They do respect her however, and they recognise she was given one of the greatest, most blessed tasks from God. Thus they believe she is likely in Heaven. Thus they believe she is a conduit to God. Just like the Apostles were conduits to Jesus, through which his power was spread on Earth, and perhaps after.

I see no problem with her being seen as an intermediary - I mean, otherwise a priest should not be allowed to ask us to pray for others. I mean, how outrageous, who does he think he is. Clearly a heretic. You have to pray straight to God and only for yourself. Heaven forbid you think you, a mortal, can act as an intermediary for others by praying on their behalf!


He..He..He..I had to greatly edit much of this section due to frequent repetition of arguments and excessive verbiage(generally used by those who are trying to confuse - as an attempt to detract from an erroneous argument).

To simply put it to you once again - Mary is not a God, nor is she *Holy*(divine), she is a sinner - saved by grace like any other. Despite being a sinner - she was/is a *godly* woman(*godly* meaning devout to God and his principles).

Many claim that *Holy* used in the connotation of the "Hail Mary" prayer - is also used to describe her devotion, however, it is rather apparent that this is not the case - seeing as how as I stated before -Mary is insinuated as being an intermediary between man and God within the prayer(something that you have already acknowledged her as being).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And chance are, if you are a Christian, any type of Christian, your particular brand of faith is likely going to have Pagan practices in it somewhere.



This will be my final post regarding this argument, seeing as how your argument is extremly poor one - and the apples that thou has brought along with it, are extremely bitter.

Again - stating that the possiblity of paganism exists within various Christian denominations - does not make various Catholic practices(praying to saints, bowing down to idols, confessing to priests) any less paganistic.

Good day to you sir. God bless.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Up In Flames
Yes, I do have only basic knowledge of Catholicism

Yes, a very basic knowledge. If your father converted based on those things you mentioned then your father left the church for the wrong reasons. I also like how you say your father left one version of christianity for one that is more true. Like any of them have all the answers.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
....This reverence and veneration given to inanimate objects - is a huge problem in Catholicism(and some other Christian denominations) - seeing as how many Catholics pray to wooden *idols* of Mary, Jesus, and his disciples(The Saints) regularly. And it goes directly against the type of worship that Christ taught(within the scriptures).

Gahhh - I know what he is talking about - but that doesn't make him right. Catholics are not worshipping idols by having crosses or even statues of Jesus. There has to be a mental component in idol worship that is absent in the case of the cross.

In fact the whole "idol worship" things is a left over phrase from eurocentric scholars - the idea that any culture that has a physical image of what they worship is instantly classified as idol worship The ancient Egyptians were accused of it, and still are - ignorantly.

Since I have never met a Catholic who believes their cross is a God, or that their Jesus statue is God, then I am dubious about people chucking around things like "they pray to a statue! They are worshipping an idol!"



And I see you have failed to actually read what I wrote - look back. Do I say it is divine? No. If you actually read it you will see that I am saying it is two different things: Believing it is a symbol of something and believing it is divine. Catholics believe the first (it is a symbol of something) not the second (it is divine) - it is absurd claiming they think it is divine.

Any clearer for you?



And you have completely failed to counter what I said. There is natural, social stratification in every single Christian sect/and denomination. Every singe one respects its priests, treats them with deference. What all that garbage you went on with is meant to be about I don't know since you quote me talking about priests and their position in the church and start going on about paganism.



Exactly - claiming. You cut the Catholics (reducing the number of Christians in the world substantially - suddenly their are a lot less Christians then Muslims) because the Pope claims he is the chief priest on earth and personal go to guy for God then you also have to cut the Mormons, the Christians who believe they are led by people God talks to and so on (ooops, keep this up and soon you'll have less Christians then Hindus.)



Actually I think your tone and claim are laughable. Not a single Christian denomination can claim to be correct and Biblically true because their doctrines are all based upon personal interpretations of an ancient text. You, nor anyone else really, can claim your particular Christian group is right and the others are wrong.

Fact - The Catholics (the worlds largest Christian denomination) believe they have interpreted the Bible correctly and and not breaking any rules.

Fact - People from other Christian denominations believe the Catholics are doing the wrong thing and thus aren't really Christians.

Tell me - who is right? Who is true? Or perhaps neither of them are because no one has the authority to declare one Christian sect/denomination right or wrong. Unless God himself pops up to clarify all Christian sects/denominations are all potentially right or they are all potentially wrong.



I must admit I fail to see the purpose behind such a rather pointless tangent, especially since it doesn't actually support your claim at all. Though it is rather Whobish... he never could resist a dig at the theory that walks all over his beliefs every day of the year.



And? Tell me - can a soul pray? Mary is dead... right? Is she allowed to pray for someone because they ask her to? Are the saints?

Because that is what it comes down to. Catholics don't believe those Saints have the power to answer their prayer - they believe however that these exceptional Christian figures can pray on their behalf. And maybe, just maybe God might listen to these people he used in life, since he sure as hell doesn't seem to do much listening to people these days.

Are you telling me Jesus went around and never listened when his apostles beseeched him? And you saying when a person spoke to his disciple, and that disciple then spoke to Jesus on behalf of that person the Disciples were... gasp!... doing something wrong? Because that is what a Catholic is doing. Translation:

Catholic: Oh Mary, the women who God blessed to carry Jesus, could you please pray for me, as I pray to God and Jesus? May they hear both your and my prayer?"

Yes.... terrible isn't it. Once again - do you knee cap priests for asking their congregation to pray on behalf of others? To act as intermediaries of others? Apparently not.



Holy Stating the Obvious Batman! usagi_yojimbo is essentially what you yourself have claimed but saying it in a different way so to make himself seem right! Very Whobish.

If you actually had read what I had written rather then crucifying other Christians in your mind because they don't kowtow the way you think they should you would see.... that I actually say the same thing. No where do I say Mary is divine or Godly. In fact the opposite, telling you you were wrong in saying that is the way she is seen. And Holy can be used to describe a person...



"Rather apparent" why Mr. Grey, if that isn't your interpretation coming into play. Why, I can think of place described as Holy - they aren't God. I can think of a book that is described as Holy - it isn't God. I can think of acts that are described as Holy... they aren't God. But to justify your argument you are claiming a person can't be Holy. Well, how is that for an erronious bit of incorrect defining. I suggest you look in a dictionary under the word Holy - I think you might find it can be used thus:

"Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person." Well, look at that!

"Holiness means the state of being holy, that is, set apart for the worship or service of God or gods. It is most usually ascribed to people, but can be and often is ascribed to objects, times, or places." Heavens above, was the your argument screaming in agony usagi_yojimbo?

Ah yes, I say she is viewed as an intermediary. A blessed figure who can pray on our behalf. Just like priests do.



Yes, run from the argument, no one will think less of you (since they need to think something of you to begin with to think less of you) - your argument have consisted exclusively of - misconceptions (Catholics worship idols) pigheadedness (I'll say the same thing as Imperial_Samura is saying but claim it is different), bad terminology (Holy can't be used to connotate devotion or something sacred! Be... bee... beeecause!) and the classic conclusion: "I have won the argument and now will talk no more."



Sigh. You accuse Catholics of pagan practices (and by gods they are pagan) yet it doesn't matter that other Christian sects/denominations also utilise Pagan practices - including whatever group you belong to. This is what the children call hypocritical. Condemn all Christians based upon the paganistic aspects of their faith, or condemn none. You can't single out a single group for condemnation while ignoring paganistic things with other Christians.

Lord Urizen
30,000 children all over the world die each day, and here we go arguing about the details of a religion.....

I thnk Christianity distracts us from the true problems that exist in our world.

Gregory
30,000 children die each day, and you spend your time arguing that God watches porn.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Up In Flames
First up, the Catholic church has statues of the cross, which contradict the second commandment, "Do Not Worship Idols". No matter how close an idol is to God, it is still an idol.

Secondly, you are supposed to confess your sins to God and God alone for he is the only one who has the authority to forgive, apart from Jesus. A priest has NO authority in the forgiveness of sins.

We are all created EQUAL. There is not supposed to be any hierarchy such as priesthood, bishophood or popehood. The pope is not supposed to be sitting on a higher throne than the rest of us.

Catholics consider Mary to be the Holy mother of God, that she is higher. Nothing could be more wrong.

-------------------------------------------------------

I'm sorry that I've offended people, but Jesus gave me the responsibility of speaking the Truth. Roman Catholicism is based around ritualistic activity and lies.

I'm truly sorry.

However, you put Jesus higher, and he was just a man.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Gregory
30,000 children die each day, and you spend your time arguing that God watches porn.


30,000 children die each day and i dedicate much of my work time donating whatever my small income can give to prevent these unnecessary deaths, while trying to put myself through college without getting kicked out for financial reasons....

I do not aim to judge, condemn, or instigate hostility between any persons. I critisize mainstream Christianity, not Christianity as a whole, because of the superficial morality it tries to collectively push.

A great Evangelical man (I forget his name) recently argued that we in America are wasting a LOT of time, money, and energy on issues such as Abortion and Gay Marriage, issues that PALE in comparison to the REAL EVILS of this world: Poverty, Disease, and Starvation.

He is infuriated that "his people", the Christian Wing, spends more time trying to oppress Homosexual people and tell women what to do with thier pregnancies, while pretty much ignoring the poverty and suffering that exists in our world, let alone our own country.



And btw, Council, when I said "we" I meant ALL OF US, not just you or anyone else. I myself included. WE ARE ALL wasting our time arguing a bunch of bullshit, when the TRUE evils still occur in our reality, and we do nothing but bicker, condemn, insult, and judge each other, a WASTE of our collective potential.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
30,000 children die each day and i dedicate much of my work time donating whatever my small income can give to prevent these unnecessary deaths, while trying to put myself through college without getting kicked out for financial reasons....
I call bullshit, not that I care.

Perusing the threads you created, I find a common theme among them. Said theme contradicts this statement.

You also blather on about how awesome Christ must be in the sack.

Poverty, disease, and starvation are merely symptoms of an evil world, not evils themselves.

Nice job loading that statement.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
30,000 children all over the world die each day, and here we go arguing about the details of a religion.....

I thnk Christianity distracts us from the true problems that exist in our world.

That... came out of nowhere.

Y do I bother
smile NOTE:Please if you are Catholic I'm not trying to be mean but I'm trying to help

smile NOTE: I am Born-Again

1.THE CROSS, STATUES, and FIESTAS
For one thing, the cross is a symbol/ a sign of salvation however some factions kiss, wipe their handkerchiefs on it or etc. The Statues of Saints are not required, we don't need to be reminded of their martyrship or what they did because a true Christian knows what they did. Also we do not need Mary or any other saints being carried around in processions.+These fiestas and festivals are really starting to get me thinking that the SAINTS, not CHRIST, but THE SAINTS are being honored.

2.PRIESTS AND HIERARCHY
True Christian Factions have Pastors over them

3.MARY, SAINTS, AND PURGATORY
Mary does not have to be remembered in prayers. Same for Saints.Also do not ask dead guys to pray for you. They aren't selfish but in salvation if you're dead you have no business with the living, they should go frolic in the flower gardens of heaven and spend lost time with your TRUE FATHER. If you're living you have no help from Heaven but GOD so spread the gospel, don't ask for prayers for people who aren't on earth. Also there IS NO PURGATORY, as I said the dead can't pray for you. If you turn out in a bright place, frolic in nearby flower gardens and give GOD an everlasting hug, preferably the latter. If it turns out to be steam, you're probably in YOU-KNOW-WHERE.

4.FORGIVENESS
Priests can't forgive anybody that hasn't committed a sin to the priests because we have the power to forgive anyone WHO HAS TRESPASSED AGAINST US. But to make it quick and easy (since GOD wants it to be easy like signing a contract with nothing on it)we ask forgiveness from GOD. Also no one is the representative of GOD on Earth but CHRIST ALONE.
smile PS. No one is perfect but GOD so forgive any of us if we made mistakes ourselves, I myself forgive the Church for it's misleadings to me (I'm a convert)

Stealth Moose
Why do you bother? Is there a Born-Again/Evangelist meta-game that involves putting down Catholicism for points?

-Pr-
I was raised Roman Catholic, though I don't subscribe to... Well, pretty much any of it.

Just funny seeing a born-again Christian trying to talk about flaws in another aspect of Religion. Irony?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Why do you bother? Is there a Born-Again/Evangelist meta-game that involves putting down Catholicism for points?

I bet if we pointed out all the silly things about his religion, he would say we are being mean to him. Even if we said "I'm not trying to be mean but I'm trying to help".

Y do I bother
Ok sorry about the name it was the only thing i could think of .Also I do not do this for points, no religion does that, besides I wouldn't dare put any offenses against any other religious groups ( except atheism and satanist-related junk) unless it was completely necessary (which happens 0.0000000000000000000000001%) of the time. And these posts are not offenses, I am trying to point them out. Also please point out what I said wrong I'm willing to defend my position, although you can ridicule my profile or my name as much as you like but definitely not my religion.

SamZED
"I wouldn't dare put any offenses against any other religious groups except atheism"
You wouldn't put offense against groups that believe in a different God but would against a group that does no believe in some sort of God?

Also on KMC saying things like "you can ridicule my profile but definitely not my religion" is an equivalent of waving a red flag in bull's face. Sometimes it feels like ridiculing religions is all people do on this forum.

Bentley
Originally posted by SamZED
"I wouldn't dare put any offenses against any other religious groups except atheism"
You wouldn't put offense against groups that believe in a different God but would against a group that does no believe in some sort of God?

Also on KMC saying things like "you can ridicule my profile but definitely not my religion" is an equivalent of waving a red flag in bull's face. Sometimes it feels like ridiculing religions is all people do on this forum.

To be fair sometimes they criticize nationalities.

SamZED
Originally posted by Bentley
To be fair sometimes they criticize nationalities. lol so true.

Epicurus
Originally posted by Bentley
To be fair sometimes they criticize nationalities. Originally posted by SamZED
lol so true.
I get where the 2 of you are coming from.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Y do I bother
Ok sorry about the name it was the only thing i could think of .Also I do not do this for points, no religion does that, besides I wouldn't dare put any offenses against any other religious groups ( except atheism and satanist-related junk) unless it was completely necessary (which happens 0.0000000000000000000000001%) of the time. And these posts are not offenses, I am trying to point them out. Also please point out what I said wrong I'm willing to defend my position, although you can ridicule my profile or my name as much as you like but definitely not my religion.

I find it interesting that one group of Christians would attack the beliefs of other Christians. After all, Predestines came from Catholics.

Stealth Moose
Here's a thought - if you take offense when other people criticize your religion, don't go to a public forum and announce how much better it is compared to anything else. I'm cool with people believing in whatever helps them through the day. When they start doing stupid shit like claiming other groups are fake (when these groups are by definition Christian and came first) or trying to belittle established science, it just deserves a good smiting.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Here's a thought - if you take offense when other people criticize your religion, don't go to a public forum and announce how much better it is compared to anything else.



Is that a particularly good thought?


If he really does have the best option available, is not going public precisely what he SHOULD do to help the greatest possible number of people?


Originally posted by Stealth Moose

I'm cool with people believing in whatever helps them through the day.


No, Moose.


You and I both know you are not cool with people believing in whatever helps them through the day.


JesusIsAlive would still be a poster on this forum if that were true.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose

When they start doing stupid like claiming other groups are fake (when these groups are by definition Christian and came first)
or trying to belittle established science, it just deserves a good smiting.




The Catholic Church is fake, and in any other place you'd be the one saying so in the guise of inappropriate jokes about priests molesting young patrons.



Nor is the Catholic Church the first group to call itself Christian.



Nor do they concern themselves overmuch with the word Christ himself is supposed to have inspired as the Christian guide.

You're not going to find commands to pray to Mary, Virgin Mother of God anywhere in an actual Bible, for instance.
So ... where'd they adopt the practice from?
From one of the religions that did have female deities, perhaps?


Do some research and you'll find nearly every aspect of pagan culture was adopted by the Catholic Church to add to its numbers and power.




And your argument that groups like the Catholic Church are "by definition" Christian doesn't hold much water either.

The Bible itself makes a case against the mere calling of a group "Christian" as a sufficient qualification of actually BEING Christian.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Matthew 21-23)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7&version=AKJV

-Pr-
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
JesusIsAlive would still be a poster on this forum if that were true.

To be fair, JIA was trolling and was doing little to encourage debate.

Shakyamunison

Stealth Moose
Four things, BWR:

1. If you think pulled pork sandwiches are the best sandwiches ever, there's places where it's inappropriate to push this agenda. If you feel Republicans are the only sane American political party, there's places where it's inappropriate or at least inadvisable to push such an agenda and expect amiability. If you single-mindedly say that tattoos are morally wrong, posting in a predominantly tatoo'd forum is a special, stubborn kind of stupid. The kind that says "I don't care about your right to be different because you're wrong, according to my group's beliefs".

2. JIA went utterly apeshit one morning, without any provocation from me, and necro'd something like 20 threads, some over six years' abandoned, just to spam his agenda. The same agends which he has had since day one, and the same one which people have called him out for all that time. I had nothing to do with the previous bannings. I am not responsible for his behaviour. But I do remain steadfast in he had crossed the line. The staff, given his history, opted to ban him. He then immediately and obviously socked, showing his agenda is more important than the forum's collective opinion or rules.

3. The only people I call out for their beliefs are those too numb to realize such beliefs are subjective of a group. You can believe in whatever the hell you want and I truly don't care. When you come to this forum and act like you have a monopoly on the sole truth, expect pushback. Stop whining like a butthurt ***** about it.

4. That special kind of agenda-driven stupid JIA had? You've picked up his torch. Prepare for the heat which is a natural consequence.

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/090/9/0/the_one_true_religion_by_fiskefyren-d5zza1p.jpg

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
When you come to this forum and act like you have a monopoly on the sole truth, expect pushback. It is incredibly astounding just how many people, anywhere, don't understand this one.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It is incredibly astounding just how many people, anywhere, don't understand this one.

You mean I'm not right and the center of the universe?

Lord Lucien
*nerd-snorts/pushes up glasses* Well, actually, according to the inflationary model of the universe, you are at the center. *snort*

SamZED
Originally posted by Stealth Moose

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/090/9/0/the_one_true_religion_by_fiskefyren-d5zza1p.jpg

laughing Gold.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-

To be fair, JIA (JesusIsAlive) was trolling and was doing little to encourage debate.




Pr, fairness likewise demands acknowledging, among other things, that:


-- JIA is not around to defend himself

-- JIA's level of trolling was scarcely more than what other members of this forum regularly engage in

-- posters like Stealth Moose do precious little to "encourage debate" among those who disagree with them






True fairness requires representing both sides; not just one.




Originally posted by -Pr-

I was raised Roman Catholic, though I don't subscribe to... Well, pretty much any of it.

Just funny seeing a born-again Christian trying to talk about flaws in another aspect of Religion. Irony?



Ironic it may seem to you, but even noteworthy and staunch atheists like Penn Jilette recognize there is a profound difference among groups like Catholics and Protestants.
Moreover, they recognize, though the average person might not, that the language we use today takes the shape that it does as a result of constant maneuvering for political power, not because there is true common ideological glue holding these groups together.


Examine the following from the 17 minute mark until 22 minutes past and note Penn's discussion with Beck on the matter:
(speech is transcripted below the dotted line for readers who cannot view YouTube)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3LnVa7zXgc#t=1310


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You get to the 70s ... and Roe v Wade comes in...
and some very, very intelligent people said
"You know, we can't fight this with "Catholics",
and "Protestants", and "Baptists", and "Lutherans" all disagreeing.
We need an umbrella."

And they kind of came up with the word "Christian".

The first president we have that calls himself a Christian ... is Jimmy Carter.
Before that ... you know ... John F. Kennedy is a "Catholic".
Others are "Baptist". Others are "Lutheran".
But they don't use the word "Christian"...

The Founding Fathers will use the word "deist" ...
(Adams of course used "Protestant" and used "Methodist" ... )
but they don't use that word ...
and then in order to fight that you get this big umbrella of "Christians"
Which is what gives you 70% of the country being "Christian" ... not breaking it up ...
Then we get to Mitt Romney and we are now adding in ... the Mormons ...
are now referring to themselves as "Christians" and getting in there ...

Most atheists flip out at the direction this is going ...
I say "No, no this is great because we're next! ...
Yes! Let's just keep including ... !" ...

-- Penn Jilette


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bentley
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The Catholic Church is fake,

Don't try to bite more than you can chew BWT.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Bentley

Don't try to bite more than you can chew BWT ...




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp,
Or what's a heaven for?" -- Robert Browning
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bluewaterrider

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pr, fairness likewise demands acknowledging, among other things, that:


-- JIA is not around to defend himselfhimself

... Because his own behavior got himself banned.

This isn't stuff just now we're bringing up; people were challenging JIA since 2006. If you clicked on the beginning of one of his many Pro-Evangelist threads, you'd see people who have not been active in years raising the same complaints about his behavior. And in all that time, all he's done is fervently reassert the same stuff over the objections and observations of others and refuse to see anything but his own POV.



JIA spammed 20+ threads like he had missed his morning dose, and for a long long time used to link-spam to his own numerous threads and Youtube videos ad nauseam. You know, the same stuff spambots do? He earned a ban for that I think in November or December and was on warning when he Hulked out and got himself purged from the herd.

I don't know why you insist he is an okay guy and somehow the victim here, except that you two share a bias.



http://treasure.diylol.com/uploads/post/image/384632/resized_sound-of-music-meme-generator-the-hills-are-alive-with-the-sound-of-butthurt-c90b18.jpg






Preaches fairness.

Constantly hedges, strawmans, misdirects, and refocuses on the individual instead of the argument.

Shakyamunison
Stealth Moose, BWR is not going to listen to you. The more you explain reality, the more he thinks he's got you. Don't waist your time on him; I don't.

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

bluewaterrider

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Indeed, you refocused on me instead of addressing any of my commentary on Catholicism,

I didn't disagree with the point that Catholicism is fundamentally different, or that it takes former pagan holidays and practices and incorporates them, which was instrumental in its success. That's self-evident.

The whole "My Evangelist/Born-Again/My Cousin Talks to Snakes Bullshit Christian sect is the only sect and Catholics are fakes" I take issue with. Definitively speaking, anyone who believes in Christ, regardless of tradition or doctrine, is a Christian. This whole circle-jerk BS about who is the true Christian is about as useful and polite as asking a bunch of women their ages and weights.

It's futile and stupid. Other people worship differently. Unless they are barging in and infringing on your right to do whatever in your own homes or worship centers, who gives a ****? Can you not sleep at night because other people might believe differently?



1. You're butt-hurt.

2. Admit it.

3. As Rob stated, I fist-punched your anus in a debate and now you've taken to trolling me at length across other threads. QQ.



No, you just committed a strawman right there. I said clearly that people are entitled to think what they want. I noted that there's a fine line between where and when it is acceptable; the Forum Crusaders seem to think it's always acceptable, in any form, across a multitude of threads, despite rampant objection, and in the face of the forum rules even.

That I don't subscribe to at all.

So get your shit straight.



See above. Catholics are Christians. Evangelists are Christians. The crazy man who thinks his dog is Christ come again is a Christian.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f46/westeyes/putin-deal.gif



And you think other sects are immune? LOL.

Have fun at Christmas.



Mary was so awesome God made her the mother of his only child, who is the center of your religion. Who gives a **** if some people respect her more than others? She was, by all accounts, a good person, and deserves respect. Even for a non-Christian, this mentality is baffling.



K. Derp.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-acHxFpcWOIc/TegGy-XtOrI/AAAAAAAABDk/c1eA__qA1uI/s1600/Butthurt3.jpg

bluewaterrider

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
I didn't disagree with the point that Catholicism is fundamentally different, or that it takes former pagan holidays and practices and incorporates them, which was instrumental in its success. That's self-evident.



It's "self-evident" to you, not to many others.

Good to have this quote from you.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
It's "self-evident" to you, not to many others.

Good to have this quote from you.

Yes! That's a great quote to take totally out of context.

Do unicorns dance in the spring or winter? The answer is self-evident.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Yes! That's a great quote to take totally out of context.

Do unicorns dance in the spring or winter? The answer is self-evident.

thumb up

What a cherry picking asshat BWR turned out to be.

Bentley

SamZED
James? Really? His uncle's name must've been Ethan.

Wonder Man
Spreading the word of God is good. Jesus came to tell the good news of the Kingdom of God. I think the Catholics do a good job of it personally.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Wonder Man
Spreading the word of God is good. Jesus came to tell the good news of the Kingdom of God. I think the Catholics do a good job of it personally.

Yah, that sounds like something satan would do. wink

-Pr-
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Pr, fairness likewise demands acknowledging, among other things, that:


-- JIA is not around to defend himself

-- JIA's level of trolling was scarcely more than what other members of this forum regularly engage in

-- posters like Stealth Moose do precious little to "encourage debate" among those who disagree with them






True fairness requires representing both sides; not just one.

When/if Stealth Moose does something worthy of being banned, he'll be kicked out.

I'm not going to pretend there isn't a lot of religion bashing on this forum. There is. That said, JIA was only contributing to making it worse, in the opinions of myself and several of the other mods.



Just a quick note: I'm Irish. Born and raised. Few groups of people in the world have been exposed to the ideological differences between protestants and catholics, and the violence that comes from it, than Irish people. It's stupid, and frankly it annoys me that any one group thinks that their religion is somehow better than anyone else's. Especially when they're so similar.

This isn't me having a go at you; just me saying that I know full well how bad it can get, so please, don't take offense.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by -Pr-
When/if Stealth Moose does something worthy of being banned, he'll be kicked out.

I'm not going to pretend there isn't a lot of religion bashing on this forum. There is. That said, JIA was only contributing to making it worse, in the opinions of myself and several of the other mods.



Just a quick note: I'm Irish. Born and raised. Few groups of people in the world have been exposed to the ideological differences between protestants and catholics, and the violence that comes from it, than Irish people. It's stupid, and frankly it annoys me that any one group thinks that their religion is somehow better than anyone else's. Especially when they're so similar.

This isn't me having a go at you; just me saying that I know full well how bad it can get, so please, don't take offense.

thumb up

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-


I'm not going to pretend there isn't a lot of religion bashing on this forum.


There is.




I am certain there are others who have admitted this that I am overlooking, but you're the first I can think of in your position to say that,
and I genuinely appreciate your being honest enough to do so.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by -Pr-


Just a quick note: I'm Irish. Born and raised. Few groups of people in the world have been exposed to the ideological differences between protestants and catholics, and the violence that comes from it, than Irish people.
It's stupid, and frankly it annoys me that any one group thinks that their religion is somehow better than anyone else's. Especially when they're so similar.

This isn't me having a go at you; just me saying that I know full well how bad it can get, so please, don't take offense.


Without your including this last sentence, it would have been hard NOT to have taken offense at this, but you did, so I don't, and am thinking now there is something to the original poster formally offering apology to practicioners in advance.

So I'll follow suit.

I apologize, retroactively, presently, and in advance to almost any Catholic who genuinely believes they are doing what is good and right and was insulted by what I've written so far and will likely write in the near future.

Understand that my arguing against an ideology and the way it is practiced is NOT intended as an attack against everyday people trying their best.
There is a distinction between the two, even as there is a distinction, say, between Islam and Muslims. I count the latter as friends and family. On this forum, I've defended the rights of one fairly notable Muslim to post his beliefs without ridicule and to be treated with respect.

That doesn't mean I am a staunch supporter of Islam.
Like Catholics and Catholicism, the 2 are NOT one and the same.

Again, there is a difference between people and the ideas people adopt, the ideas they create, or the ideas they have been taught.

Stealth Moose
Except people treat their ideas as their own, as part of their person, and become inextricably bound in them to the point of taking personal offense if those ideas are questioned.

Tell us:

Why is it okay to question Catholicism as being a "true" Christian sect, but expecting a burden of proof in religious debates is unreasonable?

-Pr-
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I am certain there are others who have admitted this that I am overlooking, but you're the first I can think of in your position to say that,
and I genuinely appreciate your being honest enough to do so.

My position? As a mod? I'm not actually a mod in this section.

Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Without your including this last sentence, it would have been hard NOT to have taken offense at this, but you did, so I don't, and am thinking now there is something to the original poster formally offering apology to practicioners in advance.

So I'll follow suit.

I apologize, retroactively, presently, and in advance to almost any Catholic who genuinely believes they are doing what is good and right and was insulted by what I've written so far and will likely write in the near future.

Understand that my arguing against an ideology and the way it is practiced is NOT intended as an attack against everyday people trying their best.
There is a distinction between the two, even as there is a distinction, say, between Islam and Muslims. I count the latter as friends and family. On this forum, I've defended the rights of one fairly notable Muslim to post his beliefs without ridicule and to be treated with respect.

That doesn't mean I am a staunch supporter of Islam.
Like Catholics and Catholicism, the 2 are NOT one and the same.

Again, there is a difference between people and the ideas people adopt, the ideas they create, or the ideas they have been taught.

I didn't feel insulted by anything you'd written, though it should be noted that I didn't read the whole thread. stick out tongue

Seriously though, as far as I'm concerned, a person is entitled to believe whatever they want to believe. It's when they decide that other people should believe it too, that bothers me. JIA, as taunted as he was, brought a lot of the flak he got on himself, and as someone who regularly deals with people doing similar things in the comic section, It's hard for me to feel sorry for them.

There was wrong on both sides, either way.

Stealth Moose
thumb up

PR is as right as cold Guinness, as per usual.

bluewaterrider
Originally posted by bluewaterrider

there is a difference between people and the ideas people adopt, the ideas they create, or the ideas they have been taught.


Originally posted by Stealth Moose

Except people treat their ideas as their own, as part of their person, and become inextricably bound in them to the point of taking personal offense if those ideas are questioned.



This is not a true exception, though.
It would be nearly impossible to understand Pr's message if it were.

What you're saying is that people wrongly confuse the two sometimes and/or let their feelings get in the way.
Which I agree with.

Hence my apology to some potential Catholic KMC readers in my previous post.

Bentley
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
That doesn't mean I am a staunch supporter of Islam.
Like Catholics and Catholicism, the 2 are NOT one and the same.

That is a very simple statement to make, and a very comfortable one, maybe you should run into some specifics. Of course there are many things you can criticize from Catholicism, but the idea that any christian groups refuse to support other christians (barring looney sects that do harm to their followers) baffles me greatly.

Catholicism is a method to get closer to the teachings of Jesus, to learn about God. I wouldn't just jump and say I don't support the Russian Orthodox church because their dogma are slightly different from the catholic one. Catholics aren't just one group either, franciscans, jesuits and many other branches of catholicism practice their faith in entirely different ways, which is to be expected really.

The Roman Church is an imperial church, it was built as a part of the Roman Empire with a deeply rooted practice that stems from that. Just like modern protestantism is entirely burgeois. But it has changed a lot during the last century, it underwent two World Wars and a Cold War in the middle of Europe.

SamZED
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
proof in religious debates That would be a first.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by SamZED
That would be a first.

IMO IT IS TRUE. THEREFORE, IT IS TRUE. THIS BOOK CONFIRMS IT IS TRUE. I ACCEPT THAT IT IS TRUE. THEREFORE, SUPER TRUE.

/debate.

SamZED
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
IMO IT IS TRUE. THEREFORE, IT IS TRUE. THIS BOOK CONFIRMS IT IS TRUE. I ACCEPT THAT IT IS TRUE. THEREFORE, SUPER TRUE.

/debate. I concede. The amount of proof is just too overwhelming.

Stealth Moose
Originally posted by SamZED
I concede. The amount of proof is just too overwhelming.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyqeigAJ9p1qdyt3a.gif

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