Quinlan Vos versus Kit Fisto

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The Planet
This doesn't seem to have ever been done. Kinda surprising. Anyway, the fight takes place in the arena at Geonosis, both characters are at their peaks, anything goes.

Prodigal Knight
Quinlan Vos wins this man. Fisto's good, but Vos just outclasses him.

The Planet
In what way?

Prodigal Knight
Well.....Vos just has more to him. He's done far more impressive things than Fisto. He killed powerful warriors and he's pretty good in the Force.

darthsith19
I'd say Vos takes it. Kit lost to TCD Asajj. I'd put Quinlan on par with Obsession Asajj, who is slightly stronger than she was in TCD. Also, I think Quinlan would have lasted longer against Sidious than Kit did, though that fight was pretty much bullshit anyways, so, but still, I go with Quin.

The Planet
Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Well.....Vos just has more to him. He's done far more impressive things than Fisto. He killed powerful warriors

However, all his great victories were achieved through luck; Volfe Karkko was toying with him, and then Vos got one lucky hit on him and won - the exact same thing happens with Sora Bulq, I can elaborate on this if you disagree.

Now there's also the fact that Agen Kolar was totally outclassing him in saber combat, Tor Skoll was able to defeat him in combat, and he almost lost to K'Kruhk in combat, none of these were really anything special, again, I can elaborate if you disagree with any of this.



Going to post why?

Prodigal Knight
Excuse me. Listen up, Vos was in a terrible mindset against Karkko. His own apprentice, Aayla, was turned to the Dark and serving his nemesis. Quinlan's condition was similar to Anakin's in ROTS. He just wasn't thinking right, and his anger and sadness wasn't allowing him to fight properly. That's why he lashes out with a pathetic Lightning attack. But see how if Vos was calmed, he can take out Karkka. Same thing. Imagine if it was Quinlan vs. Volfe again. However, Volfe doesn't have Aayla and Quinlan is 100% condition. Then again, Quinlan can actually pwn Karkko. Remember with one strike a Jedi calmed Quinlan took out Volfe. Yep, that shows you how powerful Quinlan is as a Jedi.


And Tol Skorr was killed by Vos. You can't say Skorr > Vos, because when it really counts (Battle of Saleucami), Quinlan finished Skorr off.

Again, Quinlan was not trying to run away from Agen. He wasn't trying to hurt him. If that was the case, he would be fighting. No, Kolar corners him and Vos tries to repel him away and escape, which he does. And Agen had the element of surprise when he caught Quinlan off guard. Nevertheless, Quinlan was doing his 100% against Kolar. In addition, taking all of Quin's powers together, I could definately see him lasting longer than Kolar against Sidious. Kolar dies in a like and just stood there while Sidious nailed him apart.

And he wasn't losing to K'kruhk. K'kruhk tackled him and Quinlan was like "get out of the way k'kruhk" signifying that he was running away. Quinlan was always loyal to the Republic and the Jedi Order, thats why he doesn't kill any of his brothers.

And please, Quinlan could have killed Sora. Quinlan as a Jedi can definately do so. Quinlan was first fighting as a Dark Side user. Sora's Vapaad is powerful against the Dark. And Quinlan was a terrible mindset. His good and bad self was in a total turmoil. He couldn't even concentrate during the duel, that's why he gets knocked down. But when he is finally calmed by the Light, he manages with a very quick masterful stroke cut Bulq apart.

Prodigal Knight
- Force Push
- Force Pull
- Force Lightning
- Force Cloak (hides himself from other Force users.)
and several other abilities.

Mace Windu also said to him something like "Your powers are strong, brother. To hide yourself from us makes you quite powerful." Quinlan can be definately called an exceptional Jedi.

The Planet
I know this, however you also have to consider that Volfo was in a weak state at this point, having been in stasis for hundreds of years, completely out of practise and not having tasted the 'soup' of a jedi for said number of years. Yet he completely tooled with Quinlan.




Here's where I disagree. Quinlan was in such an uncontrolled fury (largely based upon fear), fighting far worse than he usually would, and because of that Volfe was able to completely toy with him, and thus started to grow complacent. And so, when the jedi were able to calm his mind, his sudden change in skill caught Volfe off guard, and thus he was able to take him out in a single expert move.

Now you seem to think that he was able to pull off the win due to the fact that controlled Quinlan Vos >>>> the current Volfe Karkko.
I think it's far more logical that his victory was due to these 2 factors:
1. The will of the force, in other words luck.
2. His sudden change in skill, which caught Volfe off guard due to his complacency.



Now hold up, you seem to be implying that a lightsided controlled Quinlan Vos would be able to just enter a fight with the likes of Volfe Karkko and Sora Bulq and instantly win with one move. That's ridiculous.



I didn't say that, just that Vos isn't as great as you seem to think. Skorr wasn't too far from him, and he had beaten him in the past, granted Vos was incredibly fatigued at this point.



If anyone had an unfair advantage over the other, it was Quinlan. They were both trying to defeat the other without killing him, however Agen was actually attempting to capture him whereas Quinlan was only trying to escape. It's far easier to escape a fight rather than capture your opponent, so no, it was Quinlan who had the advantage, not Agen. It just turned out that Kolar was able to outclass Quinlan; he was able to disarm him at one point, able to pull off melee attacks successfully, lightly cut Quilan's shoulder...



Proof that Quinlan would be able to do better?



No, at this point Quinlan was very much dark, and he was definitely aiming to kill K'Kruhk, based upon the fact that he force pushed him out the window, clearly with the intention of killing him. Neither were holding back, that much is clear.



Proof for this? The fact that Sora is a darksider means that he doesn't quite mentally utilise it in the same way as Mace Windu, I'm pretty sure that with Sora Bulq, there's nothing more to Vaapad than strokes and sequences like any other form.



Refer to the explanation I gave with Volfe Karkko earlier.

The Planet
Wow! He can force push and force pull? Can I say, uber?



Yes, he was able to instinctively learn this when he turned to the darkside. This is somewhat impressive, but remember, the lightning was so weak that it had no effect on Volfe Karkko, and Karkko even calls him a novice with it.



This too is impressive, both Tholme and Quinlan have a talent for hiding their presence from others.
Really, I wasn't saying that Vos wasn't strong or anything, just wanted to see your argument.

Prodigal Knight
OMG, it was not a lucky hit. Quinlan's skill granted him that. If that's the case, I can say that Anakin got a lucky hit on Dooku when he disarmed him.



Random assumption on your behalf. Please, Sora trained under Mace. I would expect he would know what Mace taught him. Vapaad is also a mindset, not just strokes and sequences as you put him.



Is that why he tells K'Kruhk to back off? If he was trying to kill him, he wouldn't have said that. And pushing somebody out of a window isn't a deadly attack. Quinlan was trying to escape and get K'Kruhk out of the ay at the same time. K'Kruhk was trying to get Quinlan, but Vos was getting away.



Considering the fact that he took on powerful opponents and defeated him, I would say he lasts longer than Kolar, who just stood there.



What the hell? Quinlan was talking with his gangsters when Kolar busts in with his saber and is like "Put your hands up brother." Quinlan would be surprised the Jedi are after him. He runs and then finds Kolar cornering him again. Reluctanty, he pulls out a saber and then gets disarmed by Kolar. Kolar had advantage w/element of surprsie and Vos was not trying to kill Agen and he was running away.






Maybe so, but Karkko was trying to eliminate him and Volfe failed. And again, does type in crap saying it was luck, it was skill. Then anything a Jedi might do is luck. Luck is what Kenobi did to Maul. Karkko say Quinlan coming with an expression of calmness. He should have expected something. Yes, he might have been surprised, but to say "oh he got lucky" is simply bullshit.



Vos fought some droids on a space station who were trying to kill him. Kenobi saves him and Quinlan is tired. Then Asajj and Skorr come in. Quinlan was still a double-agent, he doesn't want to blow his cover yet and he was tired. Thats why Skorr managed to knock him back. But Vos skewered his ass on Saleucami. And did I say Vos is so great? I am listing his feats here, which have reasons behind them. If you can't deny Quinlan is more powerful than you think, that's your problem my friend.



You cannot ignore them. Why a Push is how Dooku eliminated Kenobi during the duel in the Invisible Hand. And more to that, Vos knows all the basic abilities of most Jedi, so its more than just Push and Pull.



Well yeah, its his first time, I would expect that he would suck with it. But still, he manages to do with just plain anger. Even Maul doesn't know how to do Lightning.



That ability makes them impressive. And yes, you say my arguments. Care to reply?


And just a question, do you think Quinlan is better than Fisto?

The Planet
1. That wouldn't exactly be so far out there.
2. Point 1 doesn't even matter anyway, because they are completely different cases. Sora Bulq and Volfe Karkko completely toyed with Quinlan, wasn't quite the same with Dooku and Anakin.



Here's a tip, patronise me when you are actually beating me in a debate, now when you are losing. wink



Did you ignore my post? Being in control of the darkside is essential in mastering the mental aspects of Vaapad, Sora wasn't in control of the darkside, the darkside was in control of Sora.



Great drop misconstruing my point! thumb up
I was speaking only for Sora, my reasoning is posted above.



Lying now are we? He doesn't say it once.
And even if he did, that wouldn't necessarily mean that he wasn't going full out against him. Dooku tells Obi-Wan to 'back down' in AOTC, does that mean that he was holding back against him?



So force pushing someone through a window off of a skyscraper isn't a deadly attack? Right...



Powerful opponents who don't quite compare to Sidious.



The element of surprise really only counts as a real advantage if your opponent is caught offgaurd. This didn't happen, there was plenty of time for Quinlan to register the fact that Agen was going to try and capture him. I mean it's not like Agen caught him offguard or anything.



Luck is generally a valid explanation given when an opponent who dominates the entire fight loses, it's not my fault you can't accept that.



No, it was Dooku's superior force mastery that enabled Dooku to do that, not the 'force push' attack. And yes, both Quinlan and Kit know force push, it doesn't give Quinlan an edge, so it shall be ignored.



Well while those are somewhat impressive, they don't quite compare to some of Kit's force related feats. I mean his 'force water orbs' were capable of blasting through giant gunships, that's some pretty impressive raw power. His reflexes were also described as 'faster than common sense'.

darthsith19
Agen Kolar imo is stronger than Kit. He did worse against Palpatine cause Palpatine killed him first, before he had time to react, while by the time Palpatine reached Kit, Kit and Mace were both fully prepared.

That was when Quinlan was exhausted and trying NOT to kill Skorr. I once thought as you did, but later when Vos was at full strength and trying to kill Skorr he pwnd him (Clone Wars Volume 8 - The Last Siege, The Final Truth).

You are correct. However, at the beginning of the fight Vos Force pushed K'Kruhk aside right away, and may have been able to kill him but he first had to kill Senator Viento. And Vos did win in the end. Also, I would say this dampers Vos's power but brings Karkko up. However, I do agree with you about Bulq and Karkko.



You know this is false. Karkko was pwning Vos badly. He even disappeared a appeared somewhere else. Had Karkko not wanted to taste his soup he could ahve just kept zapping him and zapped him to death.

Not true. Vos would have killed Kolar, but Kolar, on the other hand, wanted Vos alive, if possible, to bring to the Council.

That was the most bullshit battle ever. If you take EU into account Kolar > Vos, and likely msot other Jedi, too.

Vos was losing at the time that K'Kruhk tackled him. However, in the long run Vos proved superios to K'Kruhk, who's quite a good Jedi himself.

He almost kills K'Kruhk was was willing to and tried to kill his own master.

Because Bulq obviously isn't expecting Vos to make a come-back, just as Maul wasn't expecting Kenobi to make a come-back.

I disagree here. Vos pwnd Skorr when he was trying, the otehr time he was trying not to win and thus he lost. Skorr's not that great, really.

Except Dooku wasn't completely pwning Anakin first, just beating him. Karkko was pwning Vois badly, while toying with him.

I don't think eitehr K'Kruhk or Vos were trying to kill one another, but each was willing to kill the other if he had to.

Apparently Sidious used a combination of Force Rage and speed to kill Kolar so quickly. Combined that with the fact that the duel was bullshit and you have Vos doing no better.

Wrong. At first Vos was surprised, but later he had all the advantages. He was on fimilair and friendly turf. Kolar was on unfamilair and unfriendly turf.

That was Force Grip.

An assumption which likely isn't true. If Quinlan and Mighella (A Darksister) can use lightning I doubt a Sith Lord who has been trained in the Dark Side his entire life couldn't use it.



I was going to ask the same thing.

The Planet
It's close. The sad thing is, we've never really properly seen Quinlan at his best. In my eyes, Kit is superior, force wise and saber wise.

Prodigal Knight
1. Your point 1 makes no sense.

2. It was an example of your excuse saying it was luck, where it was obviousy NOT!



laughing That statement nearly made me cry from laughter!!! LMAO!



Yet you're able to use Vapaad, except the Dark Side is with you. And it still grants him an advantage over Vos.



If you are smart, you would post it and not cause a scenario of confusion, o genius.



I just checked. He's like "don't preach to me K'Kruhk. You have no idea who I become." and then he's like "I must escape" obviously indicating he has no intention of fighting the Whipid. And Dooku actually fights Kenobi, not like Vos who doesn't want to hurt the Jedi and who runs away.



He was in desperation to escape. And K'Kruhk was in the way. Besides, Obi-Wan jumps through a window in AOTC, trying to hang on to the assasin droid. It's not deadly, and K'Kruhk didn't even seem hurt by that.



Well, K'Kruhk just stands in Vos's way. But Vos doesn't kill, he just pushes him away. And Vos actually wants the Sith dead, indicating his loyalty to the Republic.



Twice Vos got caught off guard. The second time he was running forward when Kolar just jumps in front of him with a lightsaber ignited. Quinlan was again trying to get away. He even tells Agen that he's loyal to the Jedi. That's why he doesn't even go all out on Kolar.



Yeah, but he's not going to just stand there. You know how long Fisto lasted. Vos would probably last around this long, perhaps a bit longer.



Wow, you are just ignoring everything I said, didn't you? How pathetic. There's a reason for things, my friends. Perhaps you should contemplate that before you give stupid rebuttals. A regular calmed Quinlan at full strength has the power to take on Sora and Volfe, as he has been shown to do when he is in this condition.




Please see the other thread of Grievous vs. Darth Vader where Darthsith and I are arguing over the exaggeratio of the CW series. Kit is totally exaggerated. Seriously he fends off several battleships and then destorys several. While I can concede that he is very strong, I just don't see him beating Vos.

darthsith19
But he tries to kill him. he wnats the Sith dead, yes, but he's still turned over to the Dark Side. He's loyal to the Republic as much as he can be, but he doesn't really even have that much control over his actions. The Dark Side somewhat controls him.

Yes, and Vos was exhausted from running while Kolar easily found a shortcut through Vos's own terrain and was strong enough to gain the advantage of surprise.

He doesn't want to kill Kolar, but if need be he would kill Kolar just as he wtried to kill K'Kruhk. But Agen didn't want to kill Quinlan. And btw the Force Claok ability of his that you mentioned earlier wasn't good enough to hide hismelf from Agen after he'd jumped out of the speeder.


Again, Agen had no time to react - Kit did. The novel states that Agen > Kit EU shows this as well.

The Planet
1. Maybe to those who can't comprehend logic.

2. Obvious to everyone apart from you apparently. At least I gave a reason as to why it was luck, haven't quite got the same from you.

Your analogy was false anyway, I don't see why I should even bother replying to a fallacy.



Well if that's what does it for you...



If that's the best reply you can give, I'm pretty sure you're not understanding my point very well. OH well.



Ah, so you're gonna act like a sarcastic punk now huh?
I'm not going to repeat what I already posted, it's really not that hard to find, it seems to me like you're just looking for excuses not to reply.



He also had no intention of holding back in their fight, that much is clear. At this point, he had more of a 'get in my way and you die' attitude.



I'm seriously not sure if you're using strawman arguments on purpose, or not, because some of your replies really are pretty far off from any point I was trying to make. I mean, this reply is ridiculous. Your one piece of evidence for Vos holding back was the 'back off' he gave to K'Kruhk. I then used the Dooku-Kenobi example to show how your logic doesn't quite work out. However you continue to just ignore that and stick with your stance, which has no backing behind it, might I add. That kind of bs isn't acceptable in debates. You can't just parrot the same unsupported assertion again and again while ignoring your opponent's points which moot your assertion.



Obi-Wan times his jump with the force so that he was able to grab onto the remote assassin droid, thereby not falling to his death, completely different scenario. Quinlan actually pushes K'Kruhk out with knowledge of the fact that it was more probable that he would fall to his death, fortunately that didn't happen and he was able to maintain his composure in midair and land on a transport.



Agen didn't capitalise on his element of surprise, so moot point. And again, Agen was holding back as much as Quinlan was, if not moreso.



The thing is, you're one of those people who think that Agen and Saesee dieing like that is a strike against them. It's not. They were some of the best warriors in the order, we've seen them kick ass in the EU, the only explanation for them not reacting is that Sidious pulled something off with the force - that is the only explanation.



Point out one relevant thing I've ignored. I've quoted and directly responded to every single one of your points that actually mean something, you on the other hand have committed strawman arguments more than you have directly responded to my points.



Again, you seem to think that a regular calmed Quinlan has the ability to take the likes of Sora Bulq and Volfe Karkko in one move. Bullshit! I've already reasoning in contrary of this, and it's far more logical than your's.



Hold up. That is the only material for judging Kit's raw force power there is, so how can you call it an exaggeration? I'm sorry, but if that's the best excuse you can come up with, I don't see why I'm even replying. The fact is, the cartoon is perfectly canon, there are no contradictions, so it goes. Unlucky.

Prodigal Knight
To darthsith19 :



He's between the Dark and Light Side. And he was trying to escape but K'Kruhk stood in the way of the window. Perhaps Quinlan wanted to kill him, but the comic clearly shows Vos trying to get out, not trying to kill K'Kruhk.



While this is impressive by Kolar, Vos was somewhat caught off guard. He didn't expect Agen to corner him.



Perhaps Quinlan didn't use Force Cloak? W/e, we can agree though that both opponents didn't go all out, right?



Exact quote please?



Read my reasons Darth:



I'll edit this. I'm not saying Quinlan kills Karkko in one attack. But see how Quinlan, when not plagued by fear, is able to dodge Volfe. See:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=26&page=084

As you can see Karkko realizes that Vos isn't fighting as weak as before. That now he is calm and strengthened....

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=26&page=085

Karkko was going for the kill here. He wasn't kididng around. See how close his blade was to Vos's head. But Quinlan's Jedi power defeated Volfe. A fight between Jedi Quinlan 100% condition vs. Darkness Karkko results in Vos as the winner.



Maybe...



I wholehartedly disagree, but I'm not going to argue this. It's your opinion.

Prodigal Knight
And now to argue against Planet....

The Planet
Good luck. thumb up

Prodigal Knight
First off, before we get into an all-out brawl, I'll hurry up and post and be civilized because I don't want to cause a fight. I don't have time to argue everything.

First Discussion Point: Quinlan & K'Kruhk

First scene:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=41&page=130

This shows how Vos is in urgency to kill Viento. However, when K'Kruhk intervenes, Vos thinks "There's no time for this!", indicating he has no intention of fighting the Whiphid.

Scene 2:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=41&page=131

This shows Vos's escaping and K'Kruhk again being an obstacle. Whether or not Vos was trying to kill the Whiphid, the major point delievered was that Quinlan was trying to get out, not fight.

Scene 3:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=41&page=132

You see in one slide that K'Kruhk gets the advantage in landing and that he slams his hand into Quinlan. K'Kruhk starts beating Vos up.

Scene 4:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=41&page=133

However, Vos manages to escape and stop K'Kruhk and negate the advantage. Impressive. But again, he was not trying to fight. It was more of K'Kruhk being an obstacle. I don't consider it a fight, more like Quinlan just running away. And in this final scene:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=41&page=134

Showing Quinlan's loyalty to the Jedi and the Republic. Quinlan wasn't trying to kill K'Kruhk, more just getting him out of the way, except he did it violently. And also there's my favorite Star Wars in the bottom rightmost corner big grin !

Now here's the rest Planet...

Prodigal Knight
Read my explanation against darthsith19 on Volfe and Quinlan.



Excuse? My friend, the CW Cartoon Series is for entertainment purposes only. If that's considered canon, are you actually believing Mace could defeat thousands of SUPER BATTLE DROIDS with fists???? Then whats the use of him taking a task force to Geonosis then stick out tongue ??? Kit Fisto goes into the water and takes out giant batteships and creates giant Force orbs. Everyone agrees that Fisto was exaggerated in the Cartoon series, like everyone else in the show.



________________________


And wait, here's something I found on K'Kruhk and Quinlan. See this:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=41&page=135

Tholme says "Quinlan did not kill K'Kruhk, though he could obviously done so." This shows that Vos was not trying to murder a fellow Jedi.

The Planet
lol, nice, I see you've adopted my methods.



He had no indication of fighting the Whiphid at that point, because, you know, he was busy trying to kill who he thought was the fricking dark lord of the sith!!



Vos intention was clearly not to kill K'Kruhk, I never denied that, however he clearly didn't mind killing him if he continued to be an obstacle, and that much is made clear when he pushes him crashing through the glass out the window off of the skyscraper. The odds of him dying were pretty high, Quinlan knew this, yet he had no problem with it. Quinlan was simply too dark at this point.



No arguments here, except what gave you the impression that K'Kruhk got the advantage in landing?



Just to make it clear, I never argued that Vos was 100% trying to kill K'Kruhk, just that he had no problem with doing it if it meant that he was no loner an obstacle in his path.

And also, just to make this clear, I never denied that Quinlan >> K'Kruhk, just that there have been times in his jedi career where he has performed pretty averagely, and this was one of them.

The Planet
Doesn't make it less canon.



Well what Mace can do contradicts what his actual abilities are in higher forms of canon, before and after, so it doesn't quite count. There are no such contradictions with Kit Fisto.

Prodigal Knight
What are you talking about? This is my arguing style. I don't copy off anyone. I just post and debate....weird



Yea. No arguments here.



Here's my reply to a part of this:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=41&page=135

Tholme says "Quinlan did not kill K'Kruhk, though he could obviously done so." This shows that Vos was not trying to murder a fellow Jedi.

Quinlan knows K'Kruhk will be injured, but not dead. He's smart enough to know not to accidently murder.



Well in the scene, you see K'Kruhk's big body all over Vos and Quinlan coiled in pain. K'Kruhks lands first and then slaps Vos with quite some force.



All right, good deal. You're are entitled to your beliefs.

The Planet
Tholme wasn't clearly thinking, he had been wrong about Quinlan all along, shown when Quinlan has no problem striking him down. Tholme was also slightly arrogant, of both himself and Quinlan.

Prodigal Knight
Its canon in terms of events. It's not really canonistic in terms of showing Jedi fighting abilities.



Umm yeah there is. Fisto gets comfortably defeated by Asajj in the Cestus Deception. This CW Fisto seems pretty powerful and could defeat Ventress. It just doesn't add up how Fisto is suddenly this uber pwning Jedi in a cartoon show.

Prodigal Knight
Maybe so, yet Tholme could have been relating to the witnesses who saw K'Kruhk getting wounded. In one scene, you see when K'Kruhk rolls down some Rodians running towards him. Perhaps they told the story and Tholme uses reasoning to conclude Quinlan could have killed the Whiphid, but didn't choose to. W/e.

The Planet
The way I analysed the fight between Sora Bulq and Quinlan Vos in another thread, you clearly worked off of that, and I don't have a problem with that, it's cool, but denying it only loses you more credibility. You taking my post very defensively further reinforces the idea, anyway.



Refer to my post above.



I disagree. Quinlan wasn't thinking clearly at the time. He wasn't calm enough to be able to make those kind of calculations. The fact is, he pushed K'Kruhk out the window without thinking of the consequences, and without caring if he would possibly die. He could have just as easily decided not to push K'Kruhk out the window, I doubt K'Kruhk would have followed him, he would have achieved his goal of getting rid of K'Kruhk without putting his life in danger. The fact is, he wasn't thinking clearly, and he just really didn't care.



No! Look at the scene again. At the 3rd panel at the top, you see them both land at the same time, with a slight amount of distance between them. Then K'Kruhk gets the better of Quinlan in even combat by elbowing him, and then slamming him down. My, how you love to twist things...

The Planet
Right, so I'll just take your word for it then shall I?



Kit Fisto is as impressive in CD as he is in the cartoon, and no, what gave you the impression that he gets 'comfortably defeated', there's no proof for this, and it seemed actually pretty close to me. In fact, by CD, Kit was stronger than Obi-Wan.



That's a pretty huge assertion on your part, lol. I commend you for coming up with such a thing, but really, the context implies that Tholme was just basing that off of Quinlan being superior, in his opinion.

Prodigal Knight
No, I didn't say that. I mean if you want you can take the CW into account but most people are going to agree with me and say most of the Jedi there are overpowered.



Are you serious? Fisto destorys ships in the CW with little effort. He's overpowered man, like most of the other Jedi.



Maybe...

The Planet
He's pretty incredible in CD as well. His speed and skill constantly amazed Obi-Wan, when I have time, I'll post some passages.

Prodigal Knight
You do that. So do you agree Quin > Kit.

darthsith19
Vos's objective: Kill Senator Viento and leave
In this case leaving means killing K'Kruhk, which the comic showed that he was willing to do.


Yet Kolar was able to due to superior skill.

Why wouldn't he use Force Cloak? Neither went all out in the fight, though Vos went all out trying to escape and failed.

I don't have the novel, so I can't provide an exact quote. But it was something like "With Yoda and Obi-Wan gone that left Mace Windu and Agen Kolar, two of the Order's finest swordsmen, to deal with Sidious".

Except it wasn't like that. Usng the Dark Side in a duel should help you, not make you weaker. Anakin kileld Dooku by using the Dark Side, Kenobi held off Maul by using the Dark Side, yet Vos, even with the Dark Side, was unable to defeat Karkko.

Only if Karkko was focused on tasting Vos's soup.

Prodigal Knight
I've discussed this already with Planet. Read above.



So what if Agen tracked Vos down, does it make Kolar > Quinlan?



It doesn't specifically say that Agen was better than Fisto though. It says he was one of the best.



Vos's mind was a wreck darth. It was total chaos. Again, I'm not sure how it worked out, but when Vos was calmed and fought like he should have been, he finished off Karkko. And Karkko failed. In a fight between Vos and Darkness Volfe, Quinlan wins.



Maybe Quinlan didn't think it was necessary. And again, in an actual battle, nobody went all out. Quinlan was just running. I mean, if he was 100% trying then he could have been like Anakin and jumped into the Nar Shadaa air, landing on some ships and running off. No, he was running for Khaleen I believe.

darthsith19
No, however, that combined with the fact that he defeated Vos in combat when each were trying only equally hard to kill the other and the fact that is took place on Vos's turn and you have Agen > Vos.

Right then. So if Kit > Agen then I guess Kit's stronger than Quinlan, too.

Except when karkko had a chance to kill Vos he chose not to cause he wasn't going all out, just trying to taste Vos's soup.

A big mistake on his part, then, which brings him down.

At one point he was running. But when he faught, he lost. In actual battle they were both trying equally hard and Kolar won.

He did want to meet up with Khaleen, but if he couldn't do that if he got captured, so therefor his main goal would be to escape, then, after escaping, to meet up with Khaleen. Plus Kolar wasn't going all out, either, so your poiint is moot.

Prodigal Knight
1.) How do you know Vos was trying as hard as Agen? Vos wanted to get away, Agen was actually trying to capture Quinlan.

2.) What does turf have to do with this? This is not American football lol!!! They were both on a hard surface dueling.



Did I say Kit > Agen. I just said it doesn't state Agen > Kit. And for all you know, it could be Quinlan > Kit > Agen or Agen > Quinlan > Kit. Because we're all in consensus thatn Quinlan = Asajj and Asajj > Kit.



After Vos started to dodge all of Volfe's attacks, Karkko went for the kill and failed miserably.



This is a random assumption. I can argue saying Quinlan said he was still loyal to the Republic, ergo he doesn't want to hurt Kolar, ergo he doesn't fight hard at all.



He didn't want to hurt Agen though. He thought that he can manage to get Kolar out of his way by going all out, but he failed.

The Planet

The Planet
To expand on this point PK, a nice comparison would be when Skorr beat Quinlan Vos. The main reason for that was because Quinlan was tired, not because Skorr was better. It's just the same with Kit and Assaj, except Kit was also wounded, so even moreso disadvantageous for Kit.

darthsith19
I'm assuming Vops was trying as hard against Kolar as he was against K'Kruhk - in otherwords, he was trying to escape but was willing to kill Kolar if that's what it took to accomplish that. Kolar was trying to capture Vos, killing him was only a last resort, so it seems to me that their both trying equally as hard.

Vos is on turn that he is fimiliar with, Kolar doesn't know the turf he's fighting on. It's new territory to him, Vos knows it and the people who live there well.

No, most of us said Asajj > Quin, we just thought it would be close. When I combined what Agen has done in his duel with Quinlan plus what the ROTS novel says I'm assuming he's one of the top Jedi and ahead of Kit.

Cause the other Jedi were helping Vos and because Karkko was in a weakened state.

Are we in agreement that Vos's main objective was to escape at all costs?

If it wern't for these things do you think that Kit would have won?

No, the main reason is because Vos wasn't trying to win. So Of course Skorr won, Vos let him.

The Planet
I honestly have no clue, too hard to call. Possibly...



Well that too, but fatigue played a heavy part in it.

Prodigal Knight
This is mere speculation on your behalf Darth. In one scenario, Vos had to flee at any cost, which includes charging against K'Kruhk to make his way outside. On the other hand, I can argue Vos fled, but he wasn't as worried because he believed he already lost Kolar. Again, you can't say Kolar was trying as hard as Vos or even more. We know that they didn't go all out, but we don't know who tried to fight the duel more.



That has nothing to do with the fight. They were both on a flat surface dueling. It's not like they were on Mustafar, they were on a flat surface where Quinlan gets away.



Most of us said it would be really close. Thanks to Planet, the duel between Ventress and Kit seemed pretty good, but I wouldn't call it really close even if Kit was at 100%. And Agen has done other things besides his duel with Quin. He was pretty good in raiding that Bounty Hunters Guild, and Databank calls him a "legendary Jedi Master."



The Jedi were helping Vos clear his mind. Thats how a Jedi Quinlan typically fights. Since Vos was not fighting at his best, when he was not plagued, it clearly shows him being superior to Karkko. And yes, Vos > Darkness Volfe.

darthsith19
Not really. Vos was trying not ti win, so even if he was at full strength it wouldn't have made a difference.

Why did he have to fell at any cost?

A mistake on Vos's part, not an excuse for why Kolar won.

And we can't assume Vos tried harder, either, so we'll just say they tried equally hard and Kolar won.

This has alot to do, it's alot harder to fight somewhere you're not fimilair with. Yoda would fight better in the temple than on Mustafar, Maul would be better off in the place we see him at the beginning of the Darth Maul comics than at Theed, ect. It's true, ask anybody.


Pretty good? Please. Fatigued Kit did real good against Ventress, imo a full strength Kit would beat Ventress (barely, though).

Yup.

Whcihs is the same as helping him.

Most times I've seen Vos fight he doesn't fight like a Jedi, but like he did against Karkko. So that was his usual fighting style. Maybe not exactly like with Karkko with the lightning but like he was before he used lightning.

'Nope, cause he would have died if the otehr Jedi hadn't helped him. ROTS Vos might be stronger than Darkness Karkko since Darkness Karkko is iun a weakened state.

The Planet
You're basing this off what exactly? Because Vos was able to get a lucky hit on him when the jedi cleared his mind? Please, since when does that equate to overall superiority? By that logic, TPM Obi-Wan > TPM Maul, correct? Please, Volfe Karkko was dominating the entire fight before that, and guess what. Like all sith who dominate their opponents, he grew arrogant and complacent, and the sudden surge of Vos' power caught him offguard. That's it. Vos at this stage is not better than Karkko. He won out of luck (call it the will of the force), he caught Volfe offguard. Perhaps Vos at a later stage would be better than Darkness Karkko, bot not by Darkness.

The Planet
Vos was still trying to defend himself, being in better physical position would make it easier for him to do so, so no, being at full strength would have made a difference.



Agreed. In fact, I'm of the belief that Volfe Karkko in his prime would be >>>>> RotS Quinlan, but that's just me.

darthsith19
True. However, if he ahd wanted to I think he could have won, even when fatigued.

I'd say full strength Karkko is slightly above ROTS Kenobi but slightly below Dooku. Darkness Karkko might be about ROTS Vos's level.

The Planet
I'd see him as being slightly more powerful than Dooku. I mean look at how powerful he was in Darkness; he was able to dominate his saber fight with Quinlan, he knew some next disappearing technique which he was able to employ in their battle, he was able to remain unaffected by Quinlan Vos' lightning, he was then able to own Quinlan Vos with force lightning, able to dominate the mind of Aayla Secura... and that was when he was centuries out of practise. We know that at least 5 jedi masters from the council had difficulty defeating him when he was in his prime, he mastered all the secrets of a sith holocron he stole from the jedi temple... I'd say he was above Dooku.

darthsith19
Yes, five Council members had trouble defeating him, so maybe he could take Dooku, but General Grievous in the Cartoon took out 5 Jedi at the same time. True, those Jedi may not have been quite as strong as 5 Council members but Grievous didn't have to much trouble, either, and we know that Dooku's ahead of Grievous, even CW Grievous.

Prodigal Knight
Indeed, Kolar did win. Vos underestimated Kolar, and therefore he got punished by being cornered and surprised.



Hell no! We can't assume anything. All we can say is in that particular duel where no person was trying, Kolar won. This does not equate to Kolar and Vos were fighting with equal strength and Agen pulled of the victory. If you want to say Agen > Quinlan, make a thread on it.



Would Yoda vs. Sidious been any different if it was fought on the Geonosis hangar (no ships ready to leave) and on Utapau (where Grievous and Kenobi battled)? No, they are both on flat surfaces. Mustafar, the Senate room, are not flat environments. A person there can survive longer than a person would on a flat surface. For example, Yoda if he wanted to could hide in a pod and stall the duel. But on a flat surface, he can't hide.



Well thats your opinion. Personally I don't see Kit being better than Asajj and Quinlan.



Yea, they helped make the Jedi Quinlan resurface. This is how ROTS Quinlan fights. As a Jedi who doesn't let fear or anger or other troubles hinder him.



ROTS Quinlan IS stronger than Karkko. Darkness showed that to us.


Now to argue the rest....

Prodigal Knight
Please shut up and actually read what I wrote before. I told you to read my previous posts. Check the one which says "To Darthsith19" and you'll the enlightenment. Here's what happened kid:

1.) Quinlan is in a state of chaos. His apprentice is against him. He is full of fatigue and anger and despair. And yet the Light Side beckons him. He'll not in 100% condition.

2.) Volfe dominated the fight, plaguing on Quinlan's weaknesses.

3.) The Jedi realize that if they restore Quinlan back to his Jedi self, he can finish off Volfe.

4.) Quinlan's mind calms and he dodges Karkko's attacks. Volfe realizes Vos isn't weak and so he goes for the kill.

5.) Quinlan dodges Karkko's death stroke and kill Volfe with an expert attack.

Now the rest...

Prodigal Knight
This is your opinion. But even on your forum Darth, people put ROTS Kenobi over Karkko. So yeah. I personally put him on par with Kenobi because I believe Kenobi with his Soresu can give the Anzati a helluva fight.

darthsith19
So you admit that Kolar > Vos.

How about you make one.


Also because neither of them know the terrain. if it was the Geonosis Hanger or the hanger we see Dooku and Sidious in at the end of AOTC then it would be different because Sidious knows the area at the end of AOTC well and Yoda doesn't know it at all.


I say Obsessions Asajj > ROTS Quinlan > Kit > TCD Asajj. All are pretty close, imo.

Okay, ROTS Vos might be stronger than Darkness Karkko, but not Darkness Vos.

What I'm saying is Vos might be able to beat Karkko, maybe because Karkko might win if he didn't go for the soup.

I know. However, in that fight I favored Karkko. Just because the general view there is Kenobi > Karkko doesn't mean I agree with the general view.

MEDVOCK

The Planet
Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Please shut up and actually read what I wrote before. I told you to read my previous posts. Check the one which says "To Darthsith19" and you'll the enlightenment. Here's what happened kid:

1.) Quinlan is in a state of chaos. His apprentice is against him. He is full of fatigue and anger and despair. And yet the Light Side beckons him. He'll not in 100% condition.

2.) Volfe dominated the fight, plaguing on Quinlan's weaknesses.

3.) The Jedi realize that if they restore Quinlan back to his Jedi self, he can finish off Volfe.

4.) Quinlan's mind calms and he dodges Karkko's attacks. Volfe realizes Vos isn't weak and so he goes for the kill.

5.) Quinlan dodges Karkko's death stroke and kill Volfe with an expert attack.

Now the rest...

Don't call me kid, dumbass.

1. Not that this helps my argument (just giving you a helping hand, kid), you forgot to mention that Quinlan Vos was terrified of Anzati, and his fear played a big part in his domination.

2. Add in the fact that Volfe was just generally more skilled.

3. No! The jedi realise that Quinlan desperately needs some help, and hope that their encouragement will be enough.

4/5. Again, by this logic, TPM Obi-Wan > TPM Maul, correct? A few successful manoeuvres and a lucky hit don't quite negate the fact that Karrko dominated the entire fight beforehand. Quinlan's sudden surge in power caught Karkko offguard, and his lucky hit secured his win. That's it, Prodigal.

@Medvock


You forgot to mention that Assaj only studied his unarmed fighting movements. That hardly counts as an advantage.

MEDVOCK
You forgot to mention that Assaj only studied his unarmed fighting movements. That hardly counts as an advantage.

Yes, it does...

"The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it"

She was able to determine their lightsaber technique just by watching how they fought unarmed. Obviously, this knowledge would give her much advantage in their duel.

The Planet
Wow! She was able to find out their saber forms! Big fvcking deal! That hardly counts as an advantage, not a big enough one to be considered anyway.

Prodigal Knight
And does kid equate anything to your comment of dumbass? No, STFU noob and read arguments before randomly spewing shLT.



Hey thanks very much for giving even me more information to massacre your arguments with! Your so kind! big grin



Excuse me? Volfe was more skilled and was dominant against a fear-worried-depressed-fatigued Quinlan. Yep I agree.



Encouragement? If its thats what you call restoring a Jedi within a person, go ahead. They specifically mention in his mind on how a Jedi should act. Quinlan wasn't being his Jedi self. He just lashes out with Lightning at Karkko. He was getting dominated the whole fight. Yet when they restore the Jedi within him, Quinlan is not plagued by fear or anger or anything. He is calm and in ready with the Force. With this, he kills Karkko. ROTS Quinlan > Darkness Volfe.



Terrible analogy and not even close. Was Obi-Wan being dominated because he was mentally injured and when healed, was able to slaughter Maul? Hell no! Please, in that situation Obi-Wan falls down the pit and he gets one lucky shot. Quinlan never had a lucky shot. Right when the Jedi calm him, he is able to dodge Karkko several times and then face him again. The two charge one another and Quinlan avoids Volfe's killing swipe and slash him to death. You call that lucky? Then do you call the rest luck as well? No, it was skill. Luck is one shot hitting the spot. Luck isn't multiple masterful dodges and hits. Quinlan, when as a Jedi, actually defeated Karkko. And don't argue Karkko was surprised. You saw him unable to touch Vos after the restoration. Volfe knows Vos is fighting his best and he knows that he can't toy around (not that he was but still). So he goes for the kill and fails.

That's it Planet. I'm agreeing with the fact that Karkko dominated the fight TILL VOS CHANGED. Then in the end he got destroyed.

My conclusion: ROTS Quinlan (who's a pure Jedi 100%) > Darkness Volfe.

Faunus
I don't see Quinlan Vos taking out Kit Fisto a lightsaber duel, considering the Nautolan's feats of strength, speed, and skill as demonstrated in CD. When he combats the JK-13 droid, which made short work of a destroyer droid and an ARC trooper, his final assault is of such speed that it, and I quote - "baffled even Obi-Wan's experienced eye." When we account for the enemies against whom Kenobi has been pitted, and the warriors who he has seen in combat, this is quite a bit of praise. Then, his display of unarmed fury is described as a martial hurricane, in which he moves his body in multiple directions at once and almost breaks Obi-Wan's concentration again. Finally, he manages to go head-to-head with Ventress, who has by this time met both Anakin and Obi-Wan in brutal combat multiple times, slaughtered roughly half a dozen Jedi, and has managed to impress Count Dooku, who looked upon Anakin's technique with disdain. I'd say Kit has this in the bag.

The Planet
imo, yes. Kid is much more insulting, it is a sign of disrespect, don't call me it.



I've read and replied to every one of your arguments PK, quit making shit up. The fact is, none of them have even been worth a reply, yet I still gave one to them.



Cute! It's also funny, you clearly never read the whole of darkness, it's something you would have picked up if you had.



He was completely dominating their fight, outclassing Quinlan both with the force and the saber.



So you're arguing semantics now? Nice...



You saying that doesn't quite make it so PK.



Your narrow minded view of the events doesn't make my analogy any less correct. The point (that you missed) is that, in both cases, it was the sudden change in fighting mentality that caught the superior opponent (who had been dominating the entire fight, and grown arrogant complacent) off guard, and it was a lucky cheap shot that enabled the lesser opponent to win.



PK, it's pretty clear to everyone apart from you that he got lucky, quit being a fanboy.



My conclusion: Volfe Karkko at his best >>>>>>> Quinlan Vos at his best.

Prodigal Knight
Wow, you're a Karkko fanboy if you say that. In that case, Karkko must be on par with Sidious, lol!



laughing It's pretty clear to everyone besides you that Vos outclassed him in the end. Even darthsith, who has argued with me, said there's that ROTS Quinlan might be better than Karkko. And it's true. You know what? Don't play games. I hate when a person who's argument has totally crushed by a person who has clearly studied the argument and analyzed and all he gets is "oh you're a fanboy, shut up". I can possibly agree upon that Volfe in his prime > ROTS Quinlan, but to come up with ridicuous gestures like "Darkness Volfe uber pwns Quinlan!!!1111" and "Karkko >>>>>> Quinlan" is absolute bullshLt.

Prodigal Knight
No I said that in that fight, Vos lost, but we don't who was trying more and such. Perhaps Agen > Quinlan, I'm not sure. They would both be on the same level though, just one is higher up on the ladder.



All right, sure.



Thank you Darthsith19. This was my entire page-filling argument. To get to this point.

The rest of the stuff are mostly opinions and what you believe. And I'll make the thread.

darthsith19
We know Vos was willing to kill Koalr is it meant he was able to escape and we know Agen wanted Quinlan alive, Agen disarmed Vos after not very long, so he was definately going in for the capture, not the kill. So Vos was trying harder cause he was willing to kill Kolar.


Lets see it.

Prodigal Knight
All right Darth, argue this (Agen vs. Quinlan) in the thread I made. Its going off topic over here.

The Planet
Yes, I'd say so.



No, DS said that ROTS Quinlan > Darkness Karrko, which I agree with.



I'd already provided arguments, all that was left was to insult you. wink




Anyways let's drop this issue and agree to disagree. I'm quite frankly getting tired of it, and it's pretty clear that neither one of us is going to convince the other of his PoV.

Prodigal Knight
Wait, what did you say? WTF! Don't lie. Until I said that DS agrees with me, you changed your mind . Before, you kept on arguing how ROTS Vos < Darkness Karkko .

The Planet
OK, your reply made like zero sense. WTF are you talking about?

darthsith19
Lets see it.

It's mainly the fact that Kolar beat Vos and I think Vos is stronger than Kit.

Yoda and Mace refer to Agen as "A great Jedi".

Yoda was selected for 2. And isn't it stated that Mace likes Kit? So that might be why he chose him, not cause he's more powerful than Agen. I mean, Mace didn't pick Yoda and Yoda > Kit.

He kicksed alot of Bounty Hunter ass in that one comic with Mace Windu when they went to that Bounty Hunter station. He also beat the shit out of Aruk the Hutt's goons without even drawing his saber. Now, it's just hunch but I'm guessing Aruk's Goons > X'ting warriors.



I think before he said Darkness Karkko > Darkness Quinlan, which is different from ROTS Quinlan

Prodigal Knight
Actually, not really. Darkness Quinlan (Jedi) = ROTS Quinlan.

The Planet
That might be, because he was the fricking grandmaster!

Prodigal Knight
Nebaris, you know what I mean. You changed your opinions. You have lost.

The Planet
When the hell did I change my opinions? I've always been of the belief that:

Uncontrolled Darkness Quinlan Vos < Darkness Volfe Karkko
Controlled Darkness Quinlan Vos < Darkness Volfe Karkko
RotS Quinlan Vos > Darkness Volfe Karkko
RotS Quinlan Vos < Volfe Karrko (in his prime)

Point out 1 time where I contradicted any of these points.

Prodigal Knight
My friend, ROTS Quinlan = Controlled Darknes Quinlan....wow....

darthsith19
Yeah, and...?

So you don't think Quinlan improved at all between Darkness and ROTS? Doubtful, seeing as Aayla beat him the first time they faught in Darkness, yeah, he wasn't trying to hurt her, but still.

Prodigal Knight
Exactly, Quinlan was not trying at all.

Second, here's my theory on the Jedi, which you know already:



I feel there are exceptions to this. For example, a Jedi may reach his peak later in life but then keep for a time before deteriorating. Vos probably did shoot up in power from Darkness to ROTS.

I would still say that Jedi-calmed Darkness Quinlan > Darkness Karkko. And maybe ROTS Quinlan > Regular Karkko (though probably not, I don't see Volfe better than Obi-Wan for sure).

darthsith19
I agree with your theory. But at about what age do you think a Jedi reaches his peak? I'd say it's different for different Jedi depending on what species they are but for humans like 45 probably. Kenobi's peak was when he was 38 (ROTS) but seeing how Jinn was still strong at 60 I'd guess 45-50 for him, and it can't be before 40 cause Mace was 40 in TPM and 50 in AOTC and I think he was equally strong in AOTC and ROTS which means his peak was 51 or 52 years old. So I'd say peak's somewhere in mid-late 40's. How about you?

MEDVOCK
Wow! She was able to find out their saber forms! Big fvcking deal! That hardly counts as an advantage, not a big enough one to be considered anyway.

She was able to learn how they fight, and thus adapt her style to counter theirs. How can that not be considered an advantage?

He kicksed alot of Bounty Hunter ass in that one comic with Mace Windu when they went to that Bounty Hunter station. He also beat the shit out of Aruk the Hutt's goons without even drawing his saber. Now, it's just hunch but I'm guessing Aruk's Goons > X'ting warriors.

First off, let me make it clear I've read nothing about Agen besides his entry on Wookieepedia, which states virtually nothing of his feats.

About the kicking Bounty Hunter ass... So? Kit did to. In fact, Kit LITERALLY kicked bounty hunter ass. And I'm pretty sure he's shown more times in the comic beating the crap out of the bounty hunters than Agen.

No idea what these Aruk the Hutt's goons are, or what they are capable of, so I cannot agree or disagree with you there. HOWEVER, if kicking a bunch of Goons is one of Agen's most impressive feats, than I think it's pretty safe to say Kit outclasses him as far as feats go. Or at least, much more impressive things are said about Kit's skills than Agen's, and that's a FACT.

Yoda was selected for 2. And isn't it stated that Mace likes Kit? So that might be why he chose him, not cause he's more powerful than Agen. I mean, Mace didn't pick Yoda and Yoda > Kit.

So... Mace chose Kit because he liked him? Fair enough, although I don't recall reading that reason anywhere. In my eyes, Mace chose Kit because he valued his renowned skills moreso than he did the other Jedi -- BUT THAT IS ONLY IN MY EYES. I find it pretty logical to assume this, though. And I've just noticed, Mace chooses Kit to accompany him on FOUR different occasions, if we count the fact that Mace chose four Jedi "Generals" to lead the Jedi army on Geonosis (Kit was one of them, and I'm pretty sure Agen WASN'T).

Yoda and Mace refer to Agen as "A great Jedi".

Well... that says a lot, doesn't it? You really think they'd say anything less for ANY of the other Jedi?

It's mainly the fact that Kolar beat Vos and I think Vos is stronger than Kit.

Could someone post the page which shows this, because I'd really like to know what happened. According to what I've read here, all Kolar did was corner Quinlan and attempt to prevent him from escaping, which he failed at doing. And whether or not Vos > Kit is still yet to be determined....

The Planet
All she was able to find out were their forms. Sure, it's a tiny advantage, but hardly counts as a big enough one to be given credit to. The main reason Kit lost is because he was wounded and fatigued, bringing up not so relevant points just makes it more complicated.

MEDVOCK
"Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself."

I doubt she just wanted to know the names of their FORMS. She was STUDYING the Jedi to determine HOW THEY FIGHT, and thus USE THIS KNOWLEDGE TO HER ADVANTAGE.

Asajj was willing to sacrifice every single X'Ting just to obtain this information -- obviously this knowledge was very important to her.

The Planet
Originally posted by MEDVOCK
"Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself."

I doubt she just wanted to know the names of their FORMS. She was STUDYING the Jedi to determine HOW THEY FIGHT, and thus USE THIS KNOWLEDGE TO HER ADVANTAGE. Why the hell should this advantage NOT be counted?

Again, she can't determine that through their unarmed fighting skills. All she could work out were their forms, and that was based on the melee attacks of said forms. She can't work out exactly how they fight with a saber by watching over their martial arts skills, don't be ridiculous. If anything, not knowing their forms is more of a disadvantage than anything, knowing the form just makes it fairer, as they most likely knew her form.

MEDVOCK
It states in the Cestus Deception that the Jedi's unarmed tactics reflect their skills with a saber. From watching how they fought unarmed, Asajj was able to determine how they fought with a saber. I don't see how this is so hard to understand.
Of course she would not know EXACTLY how they fought, but she would have learned the general techniques they used while fighting unarmed to determine how they fought with a saber.

The Planet
Originally posted by MEDVOCK
It states in the Cestus Deception that the Jedi's unarmed tactics reflect their skills with a saber. From watching how they fought unarmed, Asajj was able to determine how they fought with a saber. I don't see how this is so hard to understand.
Of course she would not know EXACTLY how they fought, but she would have learned the general techniques they used while fighting unarmed to determine how they fought with a saber.

Again, she examined how they fought unarmed, and worked out their forms based on their melee attacks. That's all, to state that she could determine almost exactly how they fought with a saber based on their unarmed fighting is ridiculous.

kamikz
Lol, he just stated that she couldn't EXACTLY see their styles, but she could see most of their skills and techniques! How they fought so to say!

The Planet
Originally posted by kamikz
Lol, he just stated that she couldn't EXACTLY see their styles, but she could see most of their skills and techniques! How they fought so to say!

Originally posted by The Planet
to state that she could determine almost exactly how they fought with a saber based on their unarmed fighting is ridiculous

^I didn't say that he did, and please read through the whole argument before butting in midway and jumping to conclusions.

Faunus
Originally posted by The Planet
All she was able to find out were their forms. Sure, it's a tiny advantage, but hardly counts as a big enough one to be given credit to. The main reason Kit lost is because he was wounded and fatigued, bringing up not so relevant points just makes it more complicated. For one, the narration alludes to the fact that she pitted her minions against the duo so that she could study how they fought: their aggression, pace, style, etc. While this doesn't automatically grant her the win - which she earned through superiority as a fighter - it is something to account for in the battle. Secondly, where the hell was Kit shown to be either wounded or considerably fatigued? Unless you count singing the heel of his boot and beating down goons as causes for said hinderances.

MEDVOCK
Lol, he just stated that she couldn't EXACTLY see their styles, but she could see most of their skills and techniques! How they fought so to say!

Exactly. I'm glad someone else understands what I've been trying to explain.

@ Faunus:

Thank you for explaining that so well!

kamikz
Originally posted by The Planet
^I didn't say that he did, and please read through the whole argument before butting in midway and jumping to conclusions.


Maybe you should to. He never stated "almost exactly", he even said "their general techniques", that's it!

The Planet
Wow! Holy crap, there was no way she could lose with that kind of invaluable knowledge. Please...



As a factor, it is tiny when you consider the other variables; fatigue, injury, how powerful the actually are.



Refer to the . In fact, here's the exact quote.

The underground lake's surface reflected flashes of red and yellow lightning as the energy field confining Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto lessened for an instant. He felt pain and fire as he lunged through, his lightsaber absorbing enough of the energy to keep the shield from frying him. It snapped back on swiftly enough to singe Kit's left heel as the Nautolan jumped free.

This would affect his footing and movement, which would be a huge deal in a saber duel.



Refer to the .
But seriously, it was more than just 'beating down goons', judging by the descriptions, Fisto was putting in a hell of an effort in defeating them, that king of sh1t would tire him.

The Planet
Originally posted by kamikz
Maybe you should to. He never stated "almost exactly", he even said "their general techniques", that's it!

He heavily implied it. But really, this is pointless.

kamikz
O rly? stick out tongue

WollfMyth
This battle is debetable. For one thing, Quinlan Vos was outmanuvered and defeated by Agen Kolar, a lesser duelist than Fisto. But then we have the Shii-Cho disadvantage that makes Fisto weak against a single opponent. Telekineticaly speaking, Fisto is better, though speaking of Force Mastery as a whole, Quinlan is likely superior. The edge in terms of dueling, I would say, should go to Fisto. He is faster, more expirienced and just more skilled, though the disadvantages of Shii-Cho might make them equals. Overall, Fisto`s best option is to use his greater speed to outmanuver Quinlan, and I do consider this possible. However, I also consider it possible for Quinlan to stalemate Fisto with the blade and then use his greater mastery of the Force in order to subdue Fisto. Overall, my vote goes to Quinlan.

Emperordmb
Major necro

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