Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Are PIS and SvFL similar concepts? If not explain why.

lol, similar in what way?

yes, they both are comic book forum rules, they both describe which feats are proper to use and give some reason for it...

sortof in the same way that up is a similar concept to down, given that they both describe a potential direction for movement.

They aren't the same though. An event that is PIS may or may not be a SMvFL, and vice versa. There is enough differance to warrant them being differant concepts.

Why?

SMvFL can be PIS, and most likely is. but not nescesarily.

Forgive me. SMvFL means...?

Originally posted by inamilist
lol, similar in what way?

yes, they both are comic book forum rules, they both describe which feats are proper to use and give some reason for it...

sortof in the same way that up is a similar concept to down, given that they both describe a potential direction for movement.

They aren't the same though. An event that is PIS may or may not be a SMvFL, and vice versa. There is enough differance to warrant them being differant concepts.

Why?

Its because of this statment in SvFL:

Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers.

Eventhough this statement is not found under PIS, could it not be argued that the bolded statement can apply to PIS since both concepts are similar?

In other words if something happens enough times its not SvFl or PIS.

Originally posted by Mindship
Forgive me. SMvFL means...?

Spider-Man vs Fire Lord

it is basically in reference to the time where spidey beat up firelord, although it should not have happened (ie, firelord is too strong for spidey to even have a chance)

almost like a specialized form of PIS

Well, PIS is when they have someone do something ridiculous to advance the plot.

SMvFL is a ridiculous thing in itself, but it only applies to feats, and not to storylines.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Well, PIS is when they have someone do something ridiculous to advance the plot.

SMvFL is a ridiculous thing in itself, but it only applies to feats, and not to storylines.

Well yeah but basically you're just agreeing with me.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Its because of this statment in SvFL:

Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers.

Eventhough this statement is not found under PIS, could it not be argued that the bolded statement can apply to PIS since both concepts are similar?

hmmmmmm

That almost seems like a PIS feat for superman, since he should theoretically be able to hear bats heart and muscles, regardless of how quite he walks....

You'd have to get a mod to answer this one better than me, but in general, no rules in a situation like this are going to be easy to define, we cant run experiments to get real data. These should give us a guideline

but to answer you question, there is no reason that in the batman/superman feat couldn't be PIS (I'd almost say it has to be) however, its clearly not SMvFL.

Originally posted by Alfheim
In other words if something happens enough times its not SvFl or PIS.

no, I'd compleatly disagree with this

Rhino looses every time he comes out, however, here we don't use his jobber aura as a realistic argument, its the only reason why he is capable of hanging with the thing on these boards.

Originally posted by inamilist
hmmmmmm

That almost seems like a PIS feat for superman, since he should theoretically be able to hear bats heart and muscles, regardless of how quite he walks....


Well yeah apparently Bats used some tech, but as far as I know it only stopped the sound of his heart. Apart from his heart there are still loads of things Superman could hear.

Originally posted by inamilist

You'd have to get a mod to answer this one better than me, but in general, no rules in a situation like this are going to be easy to define, we cant run experiments to get real data. These should give us a guideline

Er ok.

Originally posted by inamilist

but to answer you question, there is no reason that in the batman/superman feat couldn't be PIS (I'd almost say it has to be) however, its clearly not SMvFL.

Well yeah I know, its just some people on this forum want to argue because they cant admit being wrong.


Originally posted by inamilist

no, I'd compleatly disagree with this

Rhino looses every time he comes out, however, here we don't use his jobber aura as a realistic argument, its the only reason why he is capable of hanging with the thing on these boards.

Yeah but this is the thing the batman superman example implies that is it happens enough times its allowed.

The thing is yeah superman can hear kyle rayner from across the galaxy then we're meant to beleive he can't hear Batman's heart yeah machinery was used but isn't concieveable that Superman would of been able to hear the machine working???? Damn though cause bat's was hiding near the roof in the tower so had the tower machinery as a interference excuse.

>_> Damn PIS

Originally posted by S-Ranger
The thing is yeah superman can hear kyle rayner from across the galaxy then we're meant to beleive he can't hear Batman's heart yeah machinery was used but isn't concieveable that Superman would of been able to hear the machine????

MMMM I dunno about that Bats has some pretty good tech. You need to ask Marvelprince the details. From what I can remember he said the device stopped the sound of his heart. If this is the case then that does not explain it because there so many other things Superman can hear.

Originally posted by S-Ranger
The thing is yeah superman can hear kyle rayner from across the galaxy then we're meant to beleive he can't hear Batman's heart yeah machinery was used but isn't concieveable that Superman would of been able to hear the machine working???? Damn though cause bat's was hiding near the roof in the tower so had the tower machinery as a interference excuse.

Esentially, yes. There's no reason for it to happen, at all, unless Superman just isn't caring or paying attention. If it's repeated, to be honest, it's just repeated stupidity.

Ofcourse Batman sneaking up on Superman is PIS. 1 + 1 will never be 3, no matter how often you keep repeating it.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Ofcourse Batman sneaking up on Superman is PIS. 1 + 1 will never be 3, no matter how often you keep repeating it.

So true.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Ofcourse Batman sneaking up on Superman is PIS. 1 + 1 will never be 3, no matter how often you keep repeating it.

This is the thing im not even arguing against it. If it is PIS then the forum rules say that something is not PIS if it happens all the time.

Originally posted by Alfheim
This is the thing im not even arguing against it. If it is PIS then the forum rules say that something is not PIS if it happens all the time.

I know the rules say just that. But it doesn't make sense, imo.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
I know the rules say just that. But it doesn't make sense, imo.

Here we go again. It may not make sense but those are the rules!!! Furthermore Spiderman and Wonder Woman not being bulletproof doesnt make any sense either. Spiderman can dodge bullets and lasers in mid-flight does he have the power to make a sonic boom?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Here we go again. It may not make sense but those are the rules!!! Furthermore Spiderman and Wonder Woman not being bulletproof doesnt make any sense either. Spiderman can dodge bullets and lasers in mid-flight does he have the power to make a sonic boom?

Actually, it does make sense in Spiderman's case. He's already proportionally more durable than a human, just not bulletproof. I agree that it doesn't in Wonder Woman's case, unless it's a special weakness that has a reason. Which I believe it does.

Spiderman has his spidersense to aid him in combat. It also helps him dodge bullets (in some ways). And what do you mean sonic boom? He should be able to clap with more force than your average human, but he has never done an actual sonic boom.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Actually, it does make sense in Spiderman's case. He's already proportionally more durable than a human, just not bulletproof.

The guy can lift the back of a train. Its not illogical at that strength level he should be bulletproof.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

I agree that it doesn't in Wonder Woman's case, unless it's a special weakness that has a reason. Which I believe it does.

Dont give me that crap. Does it say she has a special weakness here or does it just say she is vulnerable to bullets?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman#Powers_and_abilities

Diana is one of the strongest superheroes in the DC Universe. Her stamina affords her incredible resistance to injury and blunt force trauma. However, Diana's skin is not invulnerable and can be pierced by sharp projectiles with sufficient force distributed over a small surface area (such as bullets or arrows).

Its not a special weakness its just the way shes been written stop looking for loopholes.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

Spiderman has his spidersense to aid him in combat. It also helps him dodge bullets (in some ways). And what do you mean sonic boom? He should be able to clap with more force than your average human, but he has never done an actual sonic boom.

If he can dodge bullets and lasers in midflight he should be able to make a sonic boom because he can move faster than the speed of sound.

They're similar in that they both are bullshit rules that make no sense, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
They're similar in that they both are bullshit rules that make no sense, in my opinion.

Thats a bit harsh. I think they have their limitations but I can understand why they are there.

Originally posted by Alfheim
This is the thing im not even arguing against it. If it is PIS then the forum rules say that something is not PIS if it happens all the time. No they don't, they say that when feats of SvFL, which is contingent on the feat being a statistical outlier, are repeated many times and i.e. no longer statistical outliers, then they can be considered not SvFL.

PIS is not contingent on consistency. If Flash gets hit by Deathstroke to advance the plot ten times it's still PIS considering Flash's speed.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
They're similar concepts but they're distinct concepts. That's why there are two of them.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No they don't, they say that when feats of SvFL, which is contingent on the feat being a statistical outlier, are repeated many times and i.e. no longer statistical outliers, then they can be considered not SvFL.

PIS is not contingent on consistency. If Flash gets hit by Deathstroke to advance the plot ten times it's still PIS considering Flash's speed.

i agree. the problem we run into with this though, is that WHENEVER flash is hit, it then becomes PIS (unless it's by zoom, or reverse flash, etc . . .)

that amounts to . . . a lot of pis.

Originally posted by leonidas
i agree. the problem we run into with this though, is that WHENEVER flash is hit, it then becomes PIS (unless it's by zoom, or reverse flash, etc . . .)

that amounts to . . . a lot of pis. Which is alright, considering PIS is not contingent on consistency...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No they don't, they say that when feats of SvFL, which is contingent on the feat being a statistical outlier, are repeated many times and i.e. no longer statistical outliers, then they can be considered not SvFL.



I dont quite understand this you're saying that SvFl is contigent to consistency not PIS?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Which is alright, considering PIS is not contingent on consistency...

that's why i said i agreed with you.

still, does that mean any scan showing flash can be hit should be disregarded?

i just HATE labelling things pis . . .

Originally posted by Alfheim
The guy can lift the back of a train. Its not illogical at that strength level he should be bulletproof.

Spidey's exact strength level is unknown, if we're going by comic book appearances. But bullets can penetrate a lot of though shit. Spidey's superhumanly dense skin and muscle tissue should be no problem, since he's not exactly a top tier in that department.




What the hell? There MUST be a special reason, since Superman and the rest of the gang are ALL bulletproof. This was a conscious decision by the writers. There are lower tier characters who are less vulnerable to bullets than Wondy. If there's no stated reason, then it has yet to be explained. But honestly, I don't read Wonder Woman, so there probably IS an explanation.




Reflexes + faster than human speed + pre-cog does not equal the speed of sound. Spiderman can't outrun a bullet, nor can he keep up with a sound blast. He can however, avoid getting hit by a bullet with a combination of the above.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont quite understand this you're saying that SvFl is contigent to consistency not PIS? Let's take the example of Namor. Namor is stated to lift something like 85 tons. Marvel haven't felt the need to update this information. He once lifted a tanker which would weigh in excess of 10s if not over a 100 thousand tons. In and of itself this would be an SvFL feat, a statistical outlier. Yet he has multiple feats far in excess of 85 tons which would place him in the mid class 100 category.

However if a fight occurred between Superman and Namor, and the showing had Superman at reduced speed, reduced strength, reduced invulnerability, in comparison to his numerous strength, speed and invulnerability showings previously, and not using his variety of powers against Namor, in order to prolong the fight or plot, it would be PIS. If multiple fights like this occurred, it would still be PIS.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Spidey's exact strength level is unknown. But bullets can penetrate a lot of though shit. Spidey's superhumanly dense skin and muscle tissue should be no problem, since he's not exactly a top tier in that department.

There are humans in the real world who have survived close range shots from 30 caliber. He may not be bulletproof to an Uzi but he should at least be 30 caliber proof.



Originally posted by Dinalfos

What the hell? There MUST be a special reason, since Superman and the rest of the gang are ALL bulletproof. This was a conscious decision by the writers. There are lower tier characters who are less vulnerable to bullets than Wondy. If there's no stated reason, then it has yet to be explained. But honestly, I don't read Wonder Woman, so there probably IS an explanation.

Well until we get one she isnt.



Originally posted by Dinalfos

Reflexes + faster than human speed + pre-cog does not equal the speed of sound. Spiderman can't outrun a bullet, nor can he keep up with a sound blast. He can however, avoid getting hit by a bullet with a combination of the above.

There was a scan of him catching a bullet in midflight. Therefore he can dodge bullets in midflight.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Let's take the example of Namor. Namor is stated to lift something like 85 tons. Marvel haven't felt the need to update this information. He once lifted a tanker which would weigh in excess of 10s if not over a 100 thousand tons. In and of itself this would be an SvFL feat, a statistical outlier. Yet he has multiple feats far in excess of 85 tons which would place him in the mid class 100 category.

However if a fight occurred between Superman and Namor, and the showing had Superman at reduced speed, reduced strength, reduced invulnerability, in comparison to his numerous strength, speed and invulnerability showings previously, and not using his variety of powers against Namor, in order to prolong the fight or plot, it would be PIS. If multiple fights like this occurred, it would still be PIS.

Well at any rate the superman and batman example is similar to PIS and some people think it is the samething therefore it still apllies to PIS.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Let's take the example of Namor. Namor is stated to lift something like 85 tons. Marvel haven't felt the need to update this information. He once lifted a tanker which would weigh in excess of 10s if not over a 100 thousand tons. In and of itself this would be an SvFL feat, a statistical outlier. Yet he has multiple feats far in excess of 85 tons which would place him in the mid class 100 category.

However if a fight occurred between Superman and Namor, and the showing had Superman at reduced speed, reduced strength, reduced invulnerability, in comparison to his numerous strength, speed and invulnerability showings previously, and not using his variety of powers against Namor, in order to prolong the fight or plot, it would be PIS. If multiple fights like this occurred, it would still be PIS.

i think there are varying degrees of pis. svfl is at one end -- it's an extreme case. flash being struck seems LESS pis-sy to me solely for the reason that it HAS happened so many times.

in debates, i tend to view consistency as a top priority in decision making. i throw out the extreme highs and lows, generally.

the ultimate arbiter in deciding pis of course, is common sense, based on the knowledge of characters.

Originally posted by leonidas
i think there are varying degrees of pis. svfl is at one end -- it's an extreme case.


Of course it is but xmarks will just keep arguing and arguing and arguing because he cant admit to being wrong.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well at any rate the superman and batman example is similar to PIS and some people think it is the samething therefore it still apllies to PIS. No offense to Tron, but the examples he's given don't match the descriptions he's put. The very name SvFL is somewhat inaccurate, the fight between Spider-Man and Firelord is more an instance of CIS with elements of PIS by the descriptions given.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
No offense to Tron, but the examples he's given don't match the descriptions he's put. The very name SvFL is somewhat inaccurate, the fight between Spider-Man and Firelord is more an instance of CIS by the descriptions given.

Well thats tough he had better change it then.

Originally posted by leonidas
in debates, i tend to view consistency as a top priority in decision making. i throw out the extreme highs and lows, generally. That's the thing though, you're still throwing out any absurdly high showings regardless of if they're repeated multiple times.
Originally posted by leonidas
the ultimate arbiter in deciding pis of course, is common sense, based on the knowledge of characters. Of course.Originally posted by Alfheim
Of course it is but xmarks will just keep arguing and arguing and arguing because he cant admit to being wrong. Dude, stfu kthx.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Are PIS and SvFL similar concepts? If not explain why.
There are two kinds of people here on the forums: those who have read the actual comic of Spider-Man vs Firelord, and those who have only heard about it.

I happen to be one of those who have read the comic. Or should I say comics, because it took Spider-Man two issues before he finally beat him down.

I never never never understood why this is all of a sudden such an impossible thing. Firelord is not half as tough as people seem to think, isn't the smartest one around, and is a one trick pony (fire powers yeah we get it).

He's probably one of the weakest heralds ever (still strong, mind you) and it took Spider-Man two whole comics to actually beat him. Not with one punch, or two, but with dozens of punches, one after the other.

Spider-Man can hurt the Hulk - a bit. Why can't he beat up Firelord who is no way as durable as Hulk ? Especially when he was speedblitzing him ? He can bend steel with ease, is Firelord made of steel ? Didn't think so.

What does people give the false idea that Firelord is extremely durable ? He isn't, end of discussion.

I agree, there was a bit PIS or CIS in that comic. No problem admitting that. If Firelord played it smart, he could have killed Spider-Man pretty easily. So a bit PIS and CIS yes.

But not that much.

I can give numerous examples of truly PIS or CIS moments (Batman batkicking Hulk for example).

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Dude, stfu kthx.

Originally posted by Alfheim
There are humans in the real world who have survived close range shots from 30 caliber. He may not be bulletproof to an Uzi but he should at least be 30 caliber proof.

Surviving =/= bulletproof.

Spidey "survived" bullet wounds as well. And ofcourse, if there's any type of bullet that cannot directly penetrate the skin of a human being, then it can't penetrate Spidey's skin either. Common sense. And so what, maybe his skin IS hard enough to be 30 caliber proof? He's never been shot by one, as far as I know. But you shouldn't underestimate any type of bullet.







Whether you like it or not, there IS a reason. I mean, she's an exception to the rule, right? That measn there IS a reason. They just can't be bothered to explain it. But they don't even HAVE to explain it, a.f.a.i.k, since her powers are mystical (supernatural) in nature. Take Juggernaut, for example. His powers are magical/mystical as well, which allows him to have levels of durability and stamina that aren't in proportion to his size, weight and energy eficiency.



Yes, that was after his power up. He's A LOT faster now. And he has avoided bullets in mid fight before. But that doesn't equal the speed of sound. It's just that he has extraordinary reflexes + plus Pre-cog. His superhuman manoeuvrability, running speed and equilibrium also help.

Wonder Woman is susceptible to piercing injury because blocking things with her bracelets is a signature of her character.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's the thing though, you're still throwing out any absurdly high showings regardless of if they're repeated multiple times.

consistent repitition of a feat that should be 'impossible' for a character however in my book becomes . . . acceptable to me. technically, while it may indeed be pis, the consistent nature of the feat (and i always think of wolverine for some reason . . .) over-rides the pis.

can something be both pis and NOT pis . . .?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Wonder Woman is susceptible to piercing injury because blocking things with her bracelets is a signature of her character.

Yeah, I know that. But is there a logical explanation? I think it has something to do with her magical touch. Magic can defy regular physics in any possible way, so that might be the most logical explanation.

Originally posted by leonidas
consistent repitition of a feat that should be 'impossible' for a character however in my book becomes . . . acceptable to me. technically, while it may indeed be pis, the consistent nature of the feat (and i always think of wolverine for some reason . . .) over-rides the pis.

can something be both pis and NOT pis . . .? For clarification purposes are you referring to a character doing something beyond their abilities or a character being lowered for the sake of plot. Because it seems you're referring to the former i.e. SvFL.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Yeah, I know that. But is there a logical explanation? I think it has something to do with her magical touch. Magic can defy regular physics in any possible way, so that might be the most logical explanation. Wonder Woman can touch someone's forehead and make them fall asleep. Sometimes writers give characters strange abilities.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Whether you like it or not, there IS a reason. I mean, she's an exception to the rule, right? That measn there IS a reason. They just can't be bothered to explain it. But they don't even HAVE to explain it, a.f.a.i.k, since her powers are mystical (supernatural) in nature.
Take Juggernaut, for example. His powers are magical/mystical as well, which allows him to have levels of durability and stamina that aren't in proportion to his size, weight and energy eficiency.

No, no, no, no, no! Stop trying to look for loopholes. No reason is given regardless of wether she is an exception to the rule.. Regardless of wether its magical or mutation strength is proportinate to durability.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

Take Juggernaut, for example. His powers are magical/mystical as well, which allows him to have levels of durability and stamina that aren't in proportion to his size, weight and energy eficiency.

This example is irrelevant. Juggernauts attributes are all proporianate he has a forcefields as well.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

Yes, that was after his power up. He's A LOT faster now. And he has avoided bullets in mid fight before. But that doesn't equal the speed of sound. It's just that he has extraordinary reflexes + plus Pre-cog. His superhuman manoeuvrability, running speed and equilibrium also help.

Well im sure he has dodged lasers in mid flight. Anyway he should still be bulletproof.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Regardless of wether its magical or mutation strength is proportinate to durability. Blanket generalisation.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Blanket generalisation.

Prove it.

Frankly the onus is on you to prove that someone's strength is always proportional to their durability when you make a statement like that. "Prove it isn't so" is logical fallacy.

Even then Wonder Woman does have high level durability. Her personal exception is that piercing injury can harm her, because it's instilled in her characterization.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Frankly the onus is on you to prove that someone's strength is always proportional to their durability when you make a statement like that. "Prove it isn't so" is logical fallacy.



Get the **** out. I asked you first, its bloody common sense like the batman/superman example. You are fobbing me off again.

Make it snappy I gotta go soon.

Originally posted by Alfheim
No, no, no, no, no! Stop trying to look for loopholes. No reason is given regardless of wether she is an exception to the rule.. Regardless of wether its magical or mutation strength is proportinate to durability.

Fine, you don't have to accept it. But if there's a deviation somewhere, there MUST be a reason, even if the writer doesn't care.

And what you said is ridiculous. Magic can throw EVERYTHING off, if desired. That's the whole point of magic: to defy whatever is held as a standard. It's possible to grant someone infinite durability with a magic spell, but at the same time keep his strength on a set level. That's magic/mysticism for you. Now, if you're talking about Spiderman, then you'd have a point. His powers (probably) aren't magical, just superhuman.




You call his durability and stamina proportionate?

They're not. They're magically enhanced to whatever level Cyttorak deems appropriate. Now, if Cyttorak gave Juggernaut only strength you would have a point. Then his durability automatically scales up to match his improved energy efficiency.




Dude, no. He shouldn't. But then again, who are we to say? None of us humans have experience with actual and true superhuman strength, resistance and resilience. We do, however, know what a human can or can't take. I suppose this could be scientifically calculated.....

Originally posted by Alfheim
Get the **** out. I asked you first, its bloody common sense like the batman/superman example. You are fobbing me off again.

Make it snappy I gotta go soon. Durability and strength do not always go hand in hand. Forcefields, partial bionics, magic spells, just a few examples.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
For clarification purposes are you referring to a character doing something beyond their abilities or a character being lowered for the sake of plot. Because it seems you're referring to the former i.e. SvFL.

either one. as an example -- if batman kicks and harms/ko's cap marvel ONE time, it is clearly pis. actually, it's clearly stupid . . .

if however, bats was shown kicking and harming cm, ww, superman, hulk, cm again and again, well then, logically speaking it REMAINS pis, but it becomes somehow acceptable to me in the "comicbook world" and i chalk it up to 'comicbook logic'. (though the above may be better called cis than pis on both bats's part and on his opponents' part).

if supes doesn't sense bats sneak up on him time and time again, i chalk it up to bats's character, rather than labelling it consistent pis or cis on superman's part.

consistency renders the aforementioned events somehow more acceptable to me. i HATE calling pis. so long as the comicbook/hero does not break its/his OWN INTERNAL LAWS of consistency, suspension of disbelief (on my part) can be maintained. it's when a feat or event happens that BREAKS the established internal consistency (as opposed to the 'what-should-be-logical-based-on-my-outside-the-comicbook-world-point-of-view') that i have a problem and call pis.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Fine, you don't have to accept it. But if there's a deviation somewhere, there MUST be a reason, even if the writer doesn't care.


Well there isn't one.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

And what you said is ridiculous. Magic can throw EVERYTHING off, if desired. That's the whole point of magic: to defy whatever is held as a standard. It's possible to grant someone infinite durability with a magic spell, but at the same time keep his strength on a set level. That's magic/mysticism for you.


Well ok you got a point there...thinks....yeah you have...hate you.
Anyway i'll have to think about that.


Originally posted by Dinalfos

Now, if you're talking about Spiderman, then you'd have a point. His powers (probably) aren't magical, just superhuman.

Yeah.


Originally posted by Dinalfos

You call his durability and stamina proportionate?

They're not. They're magically enhanced to whatever level Cyttorak deems appropriate. Now, if Cyttorak gave Juggernaut only strength you would have a point. Then his durability automatically scales up to match his improved energy efficiency.

Well no pitn going into this because of what you said earlier.



Originally posted by Dinalfos

Dude, no. He shouldn't. But then again, who are we to say? None of us humans have experience with actual and true superhuman strength, resistance and resilience. We do, however, know what a human can or can't take. I suppose this could be scientifically calculated.....

Ok so if some humans can survive being shot by 30 caliber you're telling me that Spiderman who can lift up the back of a train should not at least be 30 caliber proof. He isnt even knife resistant.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Durability and strength do not always go hand in hand. Forcefields, partial bionics, magic spells, just a few examples.

Well ok theres magic. Well yeah duh forcefields, but im talking about physical durability for example characters like the Hulk etc etc. Yes of course partial bionics but im not refering to that again people with blantant superhuman durability and strength eg Hulk, Thing, Spiderman, Doc Samson etc etc get the picture?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well there isn't one.

But logically speaking, there MUST be. My explanation is the most logical one.












He might just be. As for the knife resistance, well, that depends completely on the knife and the one wielding it. I agree that your regular aunt May should not be able to plant her kitchen knife into Spidey's left arm.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy


What does people give the false idea that Firelord is extremely durable ? He isn't, end of discussion.



That's what makes this so damn complicated. Is it not PIS that Spiderman beat the crap out of Firelord because Firelord ain't that durable, or is it PIS that Firelord is made out to be relatively vulnerable? I mean considering the fact that he IS a herald with cosmic powers flowing through him. He's done all sorts of crazy shit.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Well ok theres magic. Well yeah duh forcefields, but im talking about physical durability for example characters like the Hulk etc etc. Yes of course partial bionics but im not refering to that again people with blantant superhuman durability and strength eg Hulk, Thing, Spiderman, Doc Samson etc etc get the picture?

so you're only referring to characters with combination strength and durability when applying your "strength and durability" rule? i'm not sure i understand how you're trying to make that work.

other examples of characters with mismatched strength et durability include paulie provenzano, of the interim x-men, and otis paulie has hulk-level durability, when comparing how both fared against high-speed punches from northstar, yet only enough strength to squish a gun. otis, the loveable tyke, seems to have no superstrength whatsoever, but took beatings from orka, a point-blank gunshot, and an iron fist without incident.

Originally posted by Dinalfos




He might just be. As for the knife resistance, well, that depends completely on the knife and the one wielding it. I agree that your regular aunt May should not be able to plant her kitchen knife into Spidey's left arm.

Hes not knife proof. The number of time ive seen him dodging thugs with knifes. You might argue for bullets but he should definately but knife proof for the average thug.



Originally posted by Disappear
so you're only referring to characters with combination strength and durability when applying your "strength and durability" rule? i'm not sure i understand how you're trying to make that work.

other examples of characters with mismatched strength et durability include paulie provenzano, of the interim x-men, and otis paulie has hulk-level durability, when comparing how both fared against high-speed punches from northstar, yet only enough strength to squish a gun. otis, the loveable tyke, seems to have no superstrength whatsoever, but took beatings from orka, a point-blank gunshot, and an iron fist without incident.

Lets put it this way in the real world people are durable as they are strong. So it should apply to superhumans as well.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Lets put it this way in the real world people are durable as they are strong. So it should apply to superhumans as well.



i guess you should define durable . . .

Originally posted by leonidas


i guess you should define durable . . .

Well lets put its this heavy weight boxers can take more damage than light weight boxers. As long as their not pansies.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well lets put its this heavy weight boxers can take more damage than light weight boxers. As long as their not pansies.

this is way off the topic, but . . . that has more to do with mass than overall strength, though strength obviously has a hand in it. just because someone is physically stronger does not mean they are 'tougher' or can take more punishment. some of the smaller ufc heavyweights can take tremendous punishment -- more than many of the stronger combatants. and much more than some of the metal-heads down at my gym could ever HOPE to take . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
this is way off the topic, but . . . that has more to do with mass than overall strength, though strength obviously has a hand in it. just because someone is physically stronger does not mean they are 'tougher' or can take more punishment. some of the smaller ufc heavyweights can take tremendous punishment -- more than many of the stronger combatants. and much more than some of the metal-heads down at my gym could ever HOPE to take . . .

That could be ph **** i cant spell...physiclogical. I dont expect everything to be linear but of course physical strength is going to help durability. I know in boxing you strengthen the stomach and neck muscles to help resist blows, so strength defintely has a part to play in durability and the mind.

Anyway its not like their not connected.

Let's not forget that your ability to take pain is not directly related to theoretical durability. In many cases, there's also the psychological aspect, not to mention personal health.

Isn't the current version of WW the one that was made from the clay of the Earth? If so, then there IS a certain logic to her being vulnerable to things like bullets. Think about it, take a block of clay and punch it as hard as you can. But you can push tipped objects(even if they're not pinhead sharp) into that same block of clay with far less force than you used to punch it. You see what I'm getting at?

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Let's not forget that your ability to take pain is not directly related to theoretical durability. In many cases, there's also the psychological aspect, not to mention personal health.

Actually it seems what you are talking about is slightly different. Your talking about resistance to pain. You can resist pain but still manage to get messed up. You dont neccesarily need any strength for that.

I am simply talking in general stronger people tend to be more durable the stronger they are. An athelete is going to be more durable than an old women.

P.S. Spiderman should still be knife proof and bulletproof to some guns.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Actually it seems what you are talking about is slightly different. Your talking about resistance to pain. You can resist pain but still manage to get messed up. You dont neccesarily need any strength for that.

I am simply talking in general stronger people tend to be more durable the stronger they are. An athelete is going to be more durable than an old women.

P.S. Spiderman should still be knife proof and bulletproof to some guns.




Originally posted by darthgoober
Isn't the current version of WW the one that was made from the clay of the Earth? If so, then there IS a certain logic to her being vulnerable to things like bullets. Think about it, take a block of clay and punch it as hard as you can. But you can push tipped objects(even if they're not pinhead sharp) into that same block of clay with far less force than you used to punch it. You see what I'm getting at?

Well thats one way of looking at it. Anyway Dinalfos's explanation was adequate.

Originally posted by Alfheim

I am simply talking in general stronger people tend to be more durable the stronger they are. An athelete is going to be more durable than an old women.


yes, you are correct, the stronger someone is the denser their muscles become

however, since comic writers ignore many other of the sciencey things related with characters and their powers (speedsters are a great example) we should just assume that in the MU or DCU it doesn't

not to mention, I think you would have trouble proving that someone with Spidey's strength should be bulletproof or even knife proof. It should definatly be like hitting a slab of rock if you punched him though.

The differance between the blunt force of a hand and the pierce of a knife or bullet is the important differance here.

Do you know the ratio of muscle density to relatave strength?

Originally posted by inamilist


Do you know the ratio of muscle density to relatave strength?

I guess not but Spiderman can lift the back of a train above his head. Thats pretty strong.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
That's what makes this so damn complicated. Is it not PIS that Spiderman beat the crap out of Firelord because Firelord ain't that durable, or is it PIS that Firelord is made out to be relatively vulnerable? I mean considering the fact that he IS a herald with cosmic powers flowing through him. He's done all sorts of crazy shit.
So basically you are saying : I have no idea how durable Firelord is, but he was a herald after all, so he must have at least crazy durability.

That's a wrong kind of logic. Spider-Man has fought two times (or more ?) against Surfer, and he was really doing pretty well. And Surfer felt his punches.

Surfer >>>> Firelord.

Oh I know very well that Spider-Man vs Surfer is out of character. I'm not dumb. But Spider-Man vs Firelord isn't.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Actually it seems what you are talking about is slightly different. Your talking about resistance to pain. You can resist pain but still manage to get messed up. You dont neccesarily need any strength for that.

I am simply talking in general stronger people tend to be more durable the stronger they are. An athelete is going to be more durable than an old women.

P.S. Spiderman should still be knife proof and bulletproof to some guns.



Yes, that's what I was talking about. I brought it up because of what Leonidas said. A lot of the exceptions to the strength-durability ratio can be attritbuted to will power, pain resistance or even an outside source like drugs/alchohol. Of course, there are plenty of cases that are just different. Some people have dense bones, for example. But in other cases, the guy with the strength (top tier fighter or not) has no real idea how to efficiently maximize his strength output. In other words, a lack of full access (yes, I've seen it happen to may highly skilled fighters) to their own strength (possibly due to some physical inefficiency). This allows a weaker opponent to take plenty of blows from a stronger guy, all the while seeming extremely durable for someone of his class.
Again, there are plenty of exceptions, but most of them can be explained.

Btw, I completey agree with you that in general stronger people are more durable the stronger they are. I've been trying to explain this to a lot of people in some other thread So eh, you're preaching to the choir, my friend.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
So basically you are saying : I have no idea how durable Firelord is, but he was a herald after all, so he must have at least crazy durability.

That's a wrong kind of logic. Spider-Man has fought two times (or more ?) against Surfer, and he was really doing pretty well. And Surfer felt his punches.

Surfer >>>> Firelord.

Oh I know very well that Spider-Man vs Surfer is out of character. I'm not dumb. But Spider-Man vs Firelord isn't.

No, I'm not saying anything. I'm asking questions. There's a lot of stuff we can't really answer because of Marvel's blatant disregard for, you know, consistency.

Ok fair enough.

But do me a favour : forget for a second that Firelord was a (second rate) herald. Why would you think he's so freaking durable ?

Nobody would. Most people would say : Oh that flying torch dude. Yeah he seemed to be quite powerful, but I've seen them smarter, and in the end, he wasn't THAT tough.

But hey, he was a herald after all. Must have had at least an adamantium skeleton, a vibranium skin and an Uru staff. And two healing factors and cosmic awareness.

Yeah right. Speculation, based on nothing.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy

Ok fair enough.

But do me a favour : forget for a second that Firelord was a (second rate) herald. Why would you think he's so freaking durable ?

Nobody would. Most people would say : Oh that flying torch dude. Yeah he seemed to be quite powerful, but I've seen them smarter, and in the end, he wasn't THAT tough.

But hey, he was a herald after all. Must have had at least an adamantium skeleton, a vibranium skin and an Uru staff. And two healing factors and cosmic awareness.

Yeah right. Speculation, based on nothing.

Yeah, he was a second rate herald. I'm not saying he's too durable for Spidey, just that he probably should be. Especially given the range of abilities he has shown. He has used the gravitational forces of stars to travel through space, he doesn't need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep. The strange thing is that he CAN augment his physical power by using his cosmic energies, yet he can only do it to the extent of.......50 tons. According to the handbook. If you can even begin to augment yourself with cosmic energies (even if they serve a different purpose than strength), then the results should be as incalculable as the power cosmic energies themselves.

And ofcourse it's speculation. Never said otherwise. It's just something that should be taken into account.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Yeah, he was a second rate herald. I'm not saying he's too durable for Spidey, just that he probably should be. Especially given the range of abilities he has shown. He has used the gravitational forces of stars to travel through space, he doesn't need to eat, drink, breathe or sleep. The strange thing is that he CAN augment his physical power by using his cosmic energies, yet he can only do it to the extent of.......50 tons. According to the handbook. If you can even begin to augment yourself with cosmic energies (even if they serve a different purpose than strength), then the results should be as incalculable as the power cosmic energies themselves.

And ofcourse it's speculation. Never said otherwise. It's just something that should be taken into account.

Oi you. What have you to say about this?

Originally posted by Alfheim
I am simply talking in general stronger people tend to be more durable the stronger they are. An athelete is going to be more durable than an old women.

P.S. Spiderman should still be knife proof and bulletproof to some guns.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Oi you. What have you to say about this?

I don't understand what you're trying to say

Edit: what, I thought I already answered that?

SMvFL is completely legitimate!

*runs away*

I think the issue with PIS, is that, on KMC, it's meaning (when used by most posters) has widened to encompass SMvFL and CIS. So really, the only issue here is that PIS, is attributed to:

Plot Induced Stupidity
Popularity Induced Stupidity
Character Induced Stupidity
and
Writer Induced Stupidity

Originally posted by Dinalfos
I don't understand what you're trying to say

Edit: what, I thought I already answered that?

No you have not you said that basically durability is psychological. That is resistance to pain. If you have strong mind you can resist pain but still get mashed up. If you are a complete coward it doesnt matter how big your muscles are insignificant damage will seem like a big deal.

All things being equal the stronger you are the more durable you are. An athelets will have more durability than a frail old women. I have already said that in boxing you strengthen muscles in the neck to help you take blows to the chin, you strengthen musles in the stomache to take blows to the stomache and ribs.

At the end of the day if someone can lift 15 tons and can lift the back of the train why the **** is he dodging some one more than 15 times weaker than him weilding a knife or a sword. Logic dictates that they are not going to be able to hurt him regardless of wether pain is psychological or not.

Originally posted by Alfheim

At the end of the day if someone can lift 15 tons and can lift the back of the train why the **** is he dodging some one more than 15 times weaker than him weilding a knife or a sword. Logic dictates that they are not going to be able to hurt him regardless of wether pain is psychological or not.

I don't know if flesh could ever become dense enough to be knife proof and also be usable by an organic being.

how would spiderman move and breath if all of his abdominal muscles were solid as rock?

Oh apologies Dina you have relpied to my post I didn't see it.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

Btw, I completey agree with you that in general stronger people are more durable the stronger they are. I've been trying to explain this to a lot of people in some other thread So eh, you're preaching to the choir, my friend.

So Spiderman should be knifeproof at least?

Originally posted by Alfheim
No you have not you said that basically durability is psychological. That is resistance to pain. If you have strong mind you can resist pain but still get mashed up. If you are a complete coward it doesnt matter how big your muscles are insignificant damage will seem like a big deal.

All things being equal the stronger you are the more durable you are. An athelets will have more durability than a frail old women. I have already said that in boxing you strengthen muscles in the neck to help you take blows to the chin, you strengthen musles in the stomache to take blows to the stomache and ribs.

At the end of the day if someone can lift 15 tons and can lift the back of the train why the **** is he dodging some one more than 15 times weaker than him weilding a knife or a sword. Logic dictates that they are not going to be able to hurt him regardless of wether pain is psychological or not.

Ehm, no I didn't say that

I pointed out some possible exceptions and the reason behind them. Also, you're taking things out of context. Read carefully.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Ehm, no I didn't say that

I pointed out some possible exceptions and the reason behind them. Also, you're taking things out of context. Read carefully.

Well at any rate you agreed with me.


Originally posted by Dinalfos

Btw, I completey agree with you that in general stronger people are more durable the stronger they are. I've been trying to explain this to a lot of people in some other thread So eh, you're preaching to the choir, my friend.

So shouldn't Spiderman be at least knifeproof.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So Spiderman should be knifeproof at least?

Knifeproof? What kind of knife? And who's the one stabbing him? Btw, sharp force trauma isn't really comparable to blunt force trauma.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Knifeproof to what kind of knife? And who's the one stabbing him? Btw, sharp force trauma isn't really comparable to blunt force trauma.

A street thug. Or what the hell a ninja, bear in mind they are more than 15 times weaker than him.

*waiting for Dinalfos's reply so he can own him*

Originally posted by Alfheim
A street thug. Or what the hell a ninja, bear in mind they are more than 15 times weaker than him.

*waiting for Dinalfos's reply so he can own him*

So you can reply to this post or not, or are you going to keep appearing in my Cap threads with sarcastic witty remarks?

Originally posted by Alfheim
A street thug. Or what the hell a ninja, bear in mind they are more than 15 times weaker than him.

*waiting for Dinalfos's reply so he can own him*

Yes, probably. But again, there's a big difference between sharp force and blunt force. Spidey's bone structure and muscles are denser and his skin harder, but it requires less force to penetrate someones skin that to break someone's bones. But a regular street thug should not be able to pierce his skin that easily. It's certainly possible, with a bit of luck. But he needs to put more effort into it than just swiping at him. He probably needs to put the knife blade on his skin and then drop his body weight on it But that might prove to be a problem, since, you know, Spidey isn't going to let him.

That's my estimation, although we can never be sure.

Originally posted by Alfheim
So you can reply to this post or not, or are you going to keep appearing in my Cap threads with sarcastic witty remarks?

I prefer the sarcastic remarks

But seriously, I don't really care who made the original post. In fact, most of the time I find out AFTER I wrote my reply. However, your threads are instantly recognizable

Originally posted by Dinalfos

But again, there's a big difference between sharp force and blunt force. Spidey's bone structure and muscles are denser and his skin harder, but it requires less force to penetrate someones skin that to break someone's bones.

Yes I know.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

But a regular street thug should not be able to pierce his skin that easily. It's certainly possible, with a bit of luck. But he needs to put more effort into it than just swiping at him. He probably needs to put the knife blade on his skin and then drop his body weight on it But that might prove to be a problem, since, you know, Spidey isn't going to let him.

Well maybe if you gave a street thug an Uzi and allowed him to get up close to classic powerman and take all day about where he was going to place his shots maybe he could pierce classic Powerman's skin as well.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

That's my estimation, although we can never be sure.

Yeah, yeah yeah whatever. Anyway basically you said this....

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Yes, probably.

Bottom line it stands to reason that Spiderman should be resistant to blades hey and even baseball bats the same way classic Powerman is resistant to guns. We always see him dodging these attacks this implies that they can kill him or injure him severely, this could explain why sometimes eventhough Wolverine can dodge gunfire sometimes he chooses not to. Spiderman always chooses to dodge.

Conclusion. Superheroes powers dont always make sense, the defining aspect that tells us what they are capable of doing is what they are prescrbed to do. Dinalfos can now stop dissing my Cap threads.



Originally posted by Dinalfos
I prefer the sarcastic remarks

But seriously, I don't really care who made the original post. In fact, most of the time I find out AFTER I wrote my reply. However, your threads are instantly recognizable

Well to be fair not all the time. I did a Punisher vs Imperial Guard thread. I also did You Vs MU, I got no love and I thought it was a blinding thread.

Actually its quite funny because its like you appear out of nowhere always on schedule and ruin my program. Everythings going fine...then suddenly Dinalfos turns up and ruins everything....sometimes.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Well maybe if you gave a street thug an Uzi and allowed him to get up close to classic powerman and take all day about where he was going to place his shots maybe he could pierce classic Powerman's skin as well.

Eh....




Well, classic Powerman was enhanced through scientific modification. They aimed very specifically for his physical durability, since his skin was made to be as hard as titanium, yet his strength was not quite up there. That means the natural balance must have been thrown off. Remember, you need durability to cope with an increased energy efficiency, but not necessarily the other way around. I suppose a lack of proportional strength could make it nearly impossible to even move your body, but apparently this was not the case here. It doesn't have to be, it kind of depends on the type of modification. But if it isn't done right, it could go very wrong.

Powerman differs from Spiderman in the sense that Spidey basically became a human spider. The radioactive spider that bit him altered his DNA proportionally and consequently. There was no tampering with specific elements. Anyway, vast superhuman physical powers are VERY hard to imagine without bringing the supernatural (magic/mysticism) into it. Because of this, Spidey's science based origins are a bit questionable. I wish they would just retcon it into something mystical or at least supernatural. It would be a cop out, but at least you can't debunk mysticism with scientific reasoning.

Now that I think of it, The Other made a decent attempt at adding a supernatural aura to Spidey's power up. It's better than nothing, I guess. Anyway, it's not really the origin of characters that I object to, but rather the lack of consistency in whatever they establish. The rules of physics can not be altered by themselves. That's why Captain's more outrageous feats don't make sense. And neither do Spiderman's. If the latter's powers were 100% supernatural, he wouldn't necessarily need an increase in mass. But when he strains himself to lift a Volkswagen on one moment, and manages to lift a train without much effort on another, then that would only make sense if this discrepancy is caused by an increase in size and mass or simply the supernatural.

But since these are comic books and most writers can't be bothered to think that far trough, I guess we just have to accept that only internal logic can be uphold in comic books. If you're human, then you're human and you do the stuff humans can do. Unless the connotations for the word "human" are different. Which they are to some extent, but not in terms of general physics. Well, at least this is what matters on a forum. I don't care what happens in comic books, as long as its fun to read and not OVERLY ridiculous. But still, a forum is different. If you're going to rely on logic and reason on a forum (no out-of-character jobbing, no PIS etc.) then the rules of physics can't be ignored.

I hope I'm making sense here, I'm tired as hell



*Spooky music*

Well, maybe I'm not what you think I am. Maybe I'm an Internet bot, programmed specifically to rain on your CA parade.... robot shuriken

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Eh....




Well, classic Powerman was enhanced through scientific modification. They aimed very specifically for his physical durability, since his skin was made to be as hard as titanium, yet his strength was not quite up there. That means the natural balance must have been thrown off. Remember, you need durability to cope with an increased energy efficiency, but not necessarily the other way around. I suppose a lack of proportional strength could make it nearly impossible to even move your body, but apparently this was not the case here. It doesn't have to be, it kind of depends on the type of modification. But if it isn't done right, it could go very wrong.

Powerman differs from Spiderman in the sense that Spidey basically became a human spider. The radioactive spider that bit him altered his DNA proportionally and consequently. There was no tampering with specific elements. Anyway, vast superhuman physical powers are VERY hard to imagine without bringing the supernatural (magic/mysticism) into it. Because of this, Spidey's science based origins are a bit questionable. I wish they would just retcon it into something mystical or at least supernatural. It would be a cop out, but at least you can't debunk mysticism with scientific reasoning.

Now that I think of it, The Other made a decent attempt at adding a supernatural aura to Spidey's power up. It's better than nothing, I guess. Anyway, it's not really the origin of characters that I object to, but rather the lack of consistency in whatever they establish. The rules of physics can not be altered by themselves. That's why Captain's more outrageous feats don't make sense. And neither do Spiderman's. If the latter's powers were 100% supernatural, he wouldn't necessarily need an increase in mass. But when he strains himself to lift a Volkswagen on one moment, and manages to lift a train without much effort on another, then that would only make sense if this discrepancy is caused by an increase in size and mass or simply the supernatural.

But since these are comic books and most writers can't be bothered to think that far trough, I guess we just have to accept that only internal logic can be uphold in comic books. If you're human, then you're human and you do the stuff humans can do. Unless the connotations for the word "human" are different. Which they are to some extent, but not in terms of general physics. Well, at least this is what matters on a forum. I don't care what happens in comic books, as long as its fun to read and not OVERLY ridiculous. But still, a forum is different. If you're going to rely on logic and reason on a forum (no out-of-character jobbing, no PIS etc.) then the rules of physics can't be ignored.

I hope I'm making sense here, I'm tired as hell



*Spooky music*

Well, maybe I'm not what you think I am. Maybe I'm an Internet bot, programmed specifically to rain on your CA parade.... robot shuriken

Well um I understand what you're saying but Spiderman's powers are not supernatural and his origin defintely is not. In fact even if it was supernatural most supernatural heroes still have proportional strength and durability. WW is the exception to the rule it still does not make sense why she is not immune to bullets and knives. IF you were gonna give her powers a person would have given her increased durability.

Main point, Spiderman should be immune to knives and swords in the comics therefore his not immune on this forum. If you gave a character like Cobra a sword he stands a good chance of killing him with it. Or if we gave Razorfist an upgrade he could possibly kill Spiderman on this forum too.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well um I understand what you're saying but Spiderman's powers are not supernatural and his origin defintely is not. In fact even if it was supernatural most supernatural heroes still have proportional strength and durability. WW is the exception to the rule it still does not make sense why she is not immune to bullets and knives. IF you were gonna give her powers a person would have given her increased durability.

Main point, Spiderman should be immune to knives and swords in the comics therefore his not immune on this forum. If you gave a character like Cobra a sword he stands a good chance of killing him with it. Or if we gave Razorfist an upgrade he could possibly kill Spiderman on this forum too.

Yeah, I agree, but when the supernatural comes into play, it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be proportional. Even though it usually is. Literally all bets are off when it comes to magic. It would be an easy way of explaining things. Btw, it only takes a relatively small retcon to push Spidey into the supernatural area. What if the spider wasn't radioactive, but rather mystical? There's tons of possibilities.

I don't know nearly enough about Wonder Woman. I can't really say anything about her. But I do know that her powers are magical in nature, so it's not like the writers find themselves backed into a corner.

Again, how do you know Spidey should be immune to knives? We have no scientific expertise of superhuman durability. Because there ain't no such thing. But if we were to go by the laws of proportion and relativity, then we could theoretically deduce that Spiderman is at least more knife proof than us normal folks. Whether this means he's actually knife proof to the extent you seem to imply, is very hard to say. But hey, I never said everything about Spiderman made sense.

Originally posted by Dinalfos
Yeah, I agree, but when the supernatural comes into play, it doesn't necessarily HAVE to be proportional. Even though it usually is. Literally all bets are off when it comes to magic.

Yeah ok but there needs to be a reason for things not to be proportional. At the end of the day magic is used to achieve an objective, why the hell would you give somebody massive superhuman strength but make them vulnerable to bulllets and kinves. It sounds like a curse.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

It would be an easy way of explaining things. Btw, it only takes a relatively small retcon to push Spidey into the supernatural area. What if the spider wasn't radioactive, but rather mystical? There's tons of possibilities.


Well they haven't had one......so there. As I said to you before it doesnt make any sense but that doesnt change anything on this forum, Spiderman will have his vulnerability regardless because that is what he is prescribed to do.


Originally posted by Dinalfos

I don't know nearly enough about Wonder Woman. I can't really say anything about her. But I do know that her powers are magical in nature, so it's not like the writers find themselves backed into a corner.

Neither do I all I know is that she got her powers from the Olympian Gods. I dont know if all the other gods are vulenrable to bullets, if they are not it still does not make any sense. Nobody would be stupid enough to give WW that vulnerability when you have all these other characters on her level who are not.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

Again, how do you know Spidey should be immune to knives? We have no scientific expertise of superhuman durability. Because there ain't no such thing. But if we were to go by the laws of proportion and relativity, then we could theoretically deduce that Spiderman is at least more knife proof than us normal folks. Whether this means he's actually knife proof to the extent you seem to imply, is very hard to say.

Well to tell the truth it is kinda hard to say how durable Spiderman should be. Lets put it this way, at 15 ton strength that makes him 30 times stronger than a street thug or a ninja who maybe be able to lift 1000lbs at most. Well if the Shaolin monks can train themselves to have resistance to swords and spears and they cant lift 15 tons that means Spiderman should be able to basically walk into people who have knives and swords and let them hit him.

Originally posted by Dinalfos

But hey, I never said everything about Spiderman made sense.

Well dont complain when Cap doesnt make any sense either.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah ok but there needs to be a reason for things not to be proportional. At the end of the day magic is used to achieve an objective, why the hell would you give somebody massive superhuman strength but make them vulnerable to bulllets and kinves. It sounds like a curse.

Of course, there needs to be a reason, for the sake of artistry. But even if they don't explain the how and the why, there is no actual plot hole that cripples the story, just something that is (until then) left to the imagination of the reader. At least that's something.



I know that, it was besides the point. But anyway, Spiderman's (in)vulnerability is generally quite carefully weighted across these boards. Yes, there are questions, but that's part of the fun, isn't it?




Well, I never liked Wonder Woman anyway. And I knew there was a reason

But I'd like to point out that WW's weakness isn't that illogical. It's remarkable, for sure, but not necessarily illogical. There is no inherent inconsistency, it's just that they never bothered to show or tell you. But, like I said above, at the very least it's nothing more than an untold story, rather than a physics related plot hole. Those are by far the worst type of bad writing.



Shaolin Monks are a deceiving bunch of brats

But seriously, I'm HIGHLY sceptical when it comes to that kind of stuff. They aren't anymore sword resistant than your average human, it's just that they may or may not have found a way to trick the human body and mind. I don't know how that works, but I believe those aren't actually considered feats of durability. I mean, there are certain people who can pull trucks and planes for a couple of hundred yards. Those are normal looking people, no body builders or other strong guys. Are those guys really that strong? Nah, probably not.




Cap makes even less sense