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The Zabrak Jedi Master and notable swordsmen takes on the badass skilled ROTS Quinlan. Which Jedi wins?

Setting: Geonosis Hangar

Agen wins, he won once, he can do it again.
http://swtimeline.ru/comics/Clone_Wars_Vol_4/Clone_Wars_Vol_4_018.jpg
There he fights and disarms Vos easily.
http://swtimeline.ru/comics/Clone_Wars_Vol_4/Clone_Wars_Vol_4_019.jpg
Quinlan attacks him again...
http://swtimeline.ru/comics/Clone_Wars_Vol_4/Clone_Wars_Vol_4_020.jpg
Only to get cut right away, and Kolar s=could have kileld him if he's wanted to. And this was in turf that Agen was unfimilair with but that Quinlan knew well.

Again, it is pretty obvious Darth that the two weren't trying (we agree upon this in Quinlan vs. Kit). And we don't know who was trying more. Most people are quick to downgrade Kolar due to ROTS. Unfortunately, we have to take this into consideration. I have no clue how Kolar couldn't move to block Sidious. But then again, I'm guessing had Fisto been in Agen's place, he would have been stabbed to death as well....

I have no time to argue right now. However, I'm guessing that you say Kolar wins definately. Do you put Kolar > Obsession Asajj?

Was Agen even in the Clone Wars?

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Again, it is pretty obvious Darth that the two weren't trying (we agree upon this in Quinlan vs. Kit). And we don't know who was trying more. Most people are quick to downgrade Kolar due to ROTS. Unfortunately, we have to take this into consideration. I have no clue how Kolar couldn't move to block Sidious. But then again, I'm guessing had Fisto been in Agen's p
ace, he would have been stabbed to death as well....

I have no time to argue right now. However, I'm guessing that you say Kolar wins definately. Do you put Kolar > Obsession Asajj?
Yup, Kolar > Obsession Asajj. No, they wern't trying to kill each other. But Quinlan was trying his hardest to escape, while Koalr was trying his hardest to capture Vos. It'sa easier to escape a fight than it is to capture someone that you're fighting, and Kolar would have accomplished his task had that Hutt not interfered.

About Agen's death, I'm pretty sure Palpatine was meant to move faster in ROTS that what we saw him move. I have a hunch that when he killed Agen and Saesee he was using Force Speed and maybe it was meant to be in a slow-motion like scene. Just speculation, though. And when he kills Kit while fending off Mace he's still using Force speed but it's starting to come to an end so Kit lasts longer. After Kit dies the Force Speed is over. Again, just speculation that I thought of right now, seems possible.



He means Agen at the time of the Clone Wars, not in the Clone Wars Cartoon.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yup, Kola > Obsession Asajj.
WTF? How? Unless Kolar can take Kenobi and has skill enough to threaten Anakin's life, Ventress would curbstomp him.

Originally posted by Faunus
WTF? How? Unless Kolar can take Kenobi and has skill enough to threaten Anakin's life, Ventress would curbstomp him.
I base that on the fact that I believe ROTS Quinlan to be only just below Obsession Asajj and Agen beat Quinlan.

"A>B>C" argument, and a bad one at that. To use what can be considered a proper argument - by Obsession, Asajj is likely Obi-Wan's virtual equal, as she has crushed him thrice, and after his spurts of improvement has managed at the least to fight him to a stalemate. With Anakin, both of her fights ended with her defeat, but both forced him to give in to the Dark Side in order to defeat her - before which she more or less dominated him. So, I really don't see Agen Kolar or Quinlan Vos on their best day managing to defeat Asajj.

Well, with the exception of ROTS, everything else Agen did in EU is good enough that he could possibly be better than Obsession Asajj. They way he completely pwns Aruk the Hutt's goons without even using his saber. And he disarms them all with one wave of his hand. Wee've seen Jedi disarm their opponents with the Force before but ever on a scale that big?

Yup, beat him twice, lost once (The Cestus Deception, but that's only cause Kit helped), tied him once, I'd say he defeated her in The Dreadnaughts of Rendili.

In the Cartoon she wasn't dominating him, it was pretty even with her being slightly stronger till he used the Dark Side. But yes, in The Dreadnaughts of Rendili Part 3 she was beatung him pretty badly before he used the Darkside.

I'd put Sora over Asajj and Vos beat Sora, even if he did get a bit lucky that's still impressive enough that I think he could be close to Asajj. And he pwnd Tol Skorr. Agen beat Vos. Plus mentioned a few things about him above.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Well, with the exception of ROTS, everything else Agen did in EU is good enough that he could possibly be better than Obsession Asajj. They way he completely pwns Aruk the Hutt's goons without even using his saber. And he disarms them all with one wave of his hand. Wee've seen Jedi disarm their opponents with the Force before but ever on a scale that big?
Just like Kit Fisto pwns droves of X'Ting warriors without his lightsaber? And personally, I'd say toying with three Jedi at once and killing a fourth in her first "public" appearance outclasses that by a bit.


Well, on Ohma'Dun she beat the living daylights out of him, then proceeded to humiliate him via the Force. When she captured him on Jabiim, they fought fairly well, but he fled with Alpha. Then there's the situation on Cestus, which we agree on. The numerous battles that follow are, at best, incomplete, with the exception of there final encounter in Obsession - she knocks him out of a building, clear through a wall, after being enhanced with cybernetics and rage amplification.


Yep, and she's the one who scarred him - one of three people ever to do so.


Why would you put Sora above Asajj, unless you'd match him with the likes of Obi-Wan or Anakin? She was without a doubt the best of Dooku's dark minions, especially after the enhancements.

Well I say all these people are better than Ventress:

1.) Yoda
2.) Sidious
3.) Mace
4.) Anakin
5.) Dooku
6.) Obi-Wan
7.) Dea
8.) Grievous

-------------------- And here's who I rank below her

10.) Cin Drallig
11.) Plo Koon
12.) Quinlan Vos
13.) Sora Bulq
14.) Agen Kolar
15.) Kit Fisto
16.) Luminara Unduli

Yes, like Kit did, though did he disarm them all with a wave of his hand? I don't think so. And when did Asajj toy with 3 Jedi at once and kill a fourth?

Yeah, and wasn't didn't Durge break his skull right before that? Surely that would weaken him a LOT.

Uh huh, cause he choose not to fight. When they did fight it seemed to be even.

No, the building was exploding, which blasted Kenobi through the War. In the Dreadnaughts of Rendili he was doing a good job taking Skorr and Asajj 2 on 1, he would have lsot eventually but seeing as how good he did I think he could probably have taken Asajj alone.

When did she scare him, and who else scared him?

I would. He wasn't the head of Dooku's Dark Side Acolytes (including Asajj Ventress) for nothing. He wasn't a legendary Jedi Master for nothing. He took out Tholme pretty easily and put up a good fight with Mace Windu. You think Obsession Kenobi and Anakin could put up a good fight against Mace Windu?

EU Grievous. How was Asajj the best after the enhancements, she got shot by a Magnaguard! Surely a Dark Acolyte with enough skill to put up a good fight with Mace could have blocked that.

Yup, All those people in their primes > Obsession Asajj. I think you meant Depa, not Dea, btw, right? I think Sora could, too.

Well, according to Dooku Cin > Asajj so I think he could probably beat Asajj, too. Kolar I think could beat her. Probably not Koon or Unduli, but that's close.

Yep I meant Depa. And I don't believe Sora can last against Asajj.



Are you referring to quote where he says Cin might be a danger for EU Grievous and since Grievous > Asajj, Cin > Asajj. Hmm.....I don't know. I would say that the quote is a hyperbole on Cin (as Cin got destroyed by Skywalker). And I rank Ventress above the rest. She gave Anakin an okay fight on Coruscant.

I don't see how Kolar beats her. All he did was corner Quinlan and disarm him, and considering the fact that Vos wasn't going all out and neither was Kolar, you can't say Kolar > Quinlan. While he may be better than Fisto, I doubt he's better than Drallig or Koon. Maybe Sora Bulq and possibly Quinlan, though I doubt it.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yes, like Kit did, though did he disarm them all with a wave of his hand? I don't think so. And when did Asajj toy with 3 Jedi at once and kill a fourth?
Just before she fought Mace - three renegade Jedi, including K'Kruhk, and a fourth, Mira, who she killed.

Actually, yeah, he gets the crap beaten out of him by Durge, then goes ragdoll on us again.

So I guess Dooku just chose not to fight, too.

Bull.
What is this nonsense? If we're thinking of the same fight, Skorr goes about smashing Vos's face in while Obi-Wan and Asajj duel, until Kenobi opens a cage and releases the rancor. Then, he and Quinlan get away while the Dark Jedi deal with it. Later, he goes back to tackle Asajj and the rancor - and starts losing - until Skorr starts blasting up the area with his ship, screwing over Ventress and letting Obi-Wan get away.

Where the hell'd you see "scare"? I clearly wrote out "scarred," and Anakin states in RoDV that Asajj, Dooku, and Obi-Wan were the only three people who had ever struck him with a lightsaber before his transformation.

Where was he listed as such? He watched over five Jedi after Geonosis, but I've never seen him called a group's leader.

I guess Qui-Gon, Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi-Mundi, and Saesee Tiin can all take Ventress.

Tholme? Tholme was pathetic, crippled after Dooku obliterated him and Sora at the same time. And Mace certainly didn't go all out on him, considering he knocked him through a wall as soon as he needed to go.

So you think Sora can take Anakin or Obi-Wan?

zOMg! She started runnning to the one man in the world she trusted, and he turned and had her shot. I suppose Grievous himself sucks, as he was shot while twirling a staff and approaching a Jedi who was hanging onto a ledge for dear life.

Wrong on both points.

Probably, but Anakin, Obi-Wan, Depa, and Grievous would have a hell of a fight, if the last could take her at all.

WTF? When?

The eight people listed - and possibly Durge - are the only ones who'd have a snowball's chance in hell of taking Asajj. Everyone else is going down hard.

He puit up alot better of a fight against Windu than she did.

Cin was already tired, plus we don't know how close the fight was since we only get to see one second of it.

Quinlan was trying to escape, Kolar was trying to capture Vos. Escaping an opponent is easier than capturing an opponent.

Okay, your correct. But none of those Jedi except K'Kruhk are anything special.

As we know Durge is strong enough to give Obsession Anakin a good fight so the fact that he gives Kenobi a beating in Victories and Sacrifices would be expected.

When and what does Dooku have to do with anything?

Truth.
http://swtimeline.ru/comics/Clone_Wars_Vol_7/Clone_Wars_Vol_7_104.jpg

Wrong. I just re-read that part two days ago. After Vos leaves Kenobi is beating Asajj - he kicks her in the face, then kills the Rancor, and then evades Skorr right after that. He's holding them off very well.

Yup, your right, I'm wrong, you wrote "scarred" and I mistook it for "scared". Yes, your correct.

I believe Clone Wars Volume 4. I'll find out.

Probably not. Definately not Saesee, Mundi or Fisto. Jinn probably couldn't but that would be very close.

Not really. He caused the Separatists alot of trouble and was complimented by Dooku. He used Makashi, too. I wouldn't call him pathetic.

Really? He knocked him through a wall as soon as he wanted to? That seems pretty odd considering that he only got to Asajj just in time to save the other Jedi. Surely he would have been going all out the entire battle so he could go help them as soon as he could. So tell me where it says he wans't gojng all-out.

Don't evade the question. Do you think Obsession kenobi and Skywalker can put up a good fight against Mace Windu?

If I remember correctly grievous didn't have the Force to warn him as Asajj should have. She should have sensed Dooku's betrayal through the Force.


Why wouldn't Sora have been able to block it?

LOE.

Originally posted by darthsith19
He put up alot better of a fight against Windu than she did.Possibly, but again, if we're discussing Obsession Assaj and a Sora form roughly the same time period, she would have had far more room to improve than he, considering she shot up alongside Anakin and Obi-Wan while he'd already reached the pinnacle of his mastery.

So what? They're still lightsaber-toting Jedi Knights, and considering this is her at the beginning of the war, it's quite a feat.

And the fact that Asajj can do the same is to be expected, too.

I'm simply drawing parallels to combat your double standards.

I'm not sure if you noticed - or if this is sarcasm - but I just linked that picture. And where do you see the building exploding in the pages before that? She breaks glass, but that's hardly enough to blow out a wall. We clearly see Kenobi fly through a wall, closely followed by Ventress, and that can't really be interpreted more than one way.

I just re-read it now.

Exactly - reputation isn't everything.

Through his plans and wit, sure, but he never did anythign extraordinary in combat. And if he practices Makashi, he's obviously not very good at it.

Once you show me proof that he was. Last I checked, as soon as he sensed the others were in danger he took off.

I'll evade the question until you answer my initial one: do you think Sora can take Anakin or Obi-Wan?

Since when has anyone been able to routinely sense betrayal through the Force? If that were the case, Obi-Wan would've known Anakin had turned, as would Dooku for Sidious, and every Jedi who died at the hands of a clone.

If he was rattled by rage amplifying devices, while having just encountered the two people in the world he hated most, and had just been betrayed by the one man in the galaxy he had learned to trust? No.

NO, it doesn't. Ventress is only mentioned in passing in LoE, and that's simply in Dooku's musings. It's Grievous who is told that should he fight without the advantage of intimidation, fear, and surprise, he would be unable to fight greater Jedi such as Cin or Yoda.

True, but I still say Sora > any Asajj.

Okay. Mace Windu takes three Dark Acolutes at once, too, and Bulq isn't that far behind Windu. Vos takes on 2 Dark Acolytes at once and wins, Anakin ten months after AOTC takes on two Dark acolytes and wins. So alot of people have taken on multiple opponents at once and won. And Asajj was winning at first but that fight doesn't even last that long cause right after it starts she runs away. So we really can't know ehetehr or not she would have succeeded if she had stayed.

Yes, but not Asajj from Victories and Sacrifices. She would do okay but not that great. I was merely stating why Durge beat Kenobi so badly.

You looked, eh? How about reading?
"I hope we can say the same about Obi-Wan... The Confederacy Base has been hit, with your master trapped inside...".

Then you should know what I'm talking about.

Know, but it all adds up.

I really must complement you, Tholme. You've kept up your dueling skills better than most Jedi." - Count Dooku
So while he may not be a great Jedi he is above avg. and not pathetic.

You were the one who stated that he wasn't trying his hardest, your the one who brought it up, you provide the proof.

Well, first of all I asked you first and second I have a feeling that one I answer that you'll get sidetracked from your question, just as you did the first time, and not answer it. So you answer mine and then I'll answer yours.

Yoda sensed Dooku's betrayal in AOTC. But otehr than that, no one. However, people have been able to sense blaster botls coming at them, plus she should have been able tos ee the Magnaguard raise the gun and point it at her.

Rage amplifying devices, huh? Where does it say that?




What part of all that don't you get?

Originally posted by darthsith19 True, but I still say Sora > any Asajj.You're entitled to your beliefs, so long as you prove up in an actual debate.

In a tank, yeah.

Which relates to Sora how?

Who?

Please. She slashed K'Kruhk across the abdomen, kicks one in the face, kills another, and goads the others, toying with them until Mace arrives, She would have crushed them, plain and simple.

I read, too. I'm guessing that's all you did, considering we see no fire in the building, and no smoke in the place Obi-Wan and Asajj fly from. There aare signs of damage elsewhere, like in the background, but that area is pretty much untouched.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

. . . What?

Technically, that doesn't mean he ever had much skill, just that he'd maintained what he had. But ignoring that, Tholme was crippled by Dooku's assault - which, mind you, followed the Count's almost careless dispatch of Sora - and so whatever skill he may have had was diminished.

I don't need to prove a negative - you need to prove that Mace was going all out, then suddenly, when he needed to, he got the one up on Sora, put him on his ass, and ran off.

Fair enough, although I don't see myself getting side-tracked from anything. Now, I think that as of Obsession, Anakin or Obi-Wan can hold their own against Mace for a bit, as could Sora. But in the end, Anakin's furious swordplay and Obi-Wan's virtually impervious defense would serve them better than Sora's now degenerative Vaapad. The style requires a balance of dark and light, with perfect control; Sora is enveloped in the Dark side to the point that he can't use it properly.

Not really, or else he would have come sooner.

Hell. . . ? I suppose there's no difference between sensing betrayal and deflecting blaster bolts.

Hm. I don't know. I thought it was in the comics, but it's obviously not. My bad.

No offense, but I'd like to ask if you're retarded. Cuz last I checked, Grievous isn't Asajj.

I have in the old Asajj vs. Bulq thread.


Showing that taking on multiple opponents at once isn't extraordinary.

Vinoc and Karoc.

Maybe, maybe not. She was winning, but if the Jedi had started working togetehr better and atatcked as one they might have been able to take her. Not sure about Rhad but I bet Jiesel and K'Kruhk could have worked well together.

Does a building made of cement catch on fire? The building seems to be made or a cement-like substance. So it got hit, why should it smoke? And there is smoke, look at the frame with Kit and Anakin in it. And in that frame there is a blast by the building, could have triggered something in the building which exploded the machinery in the room Kenobi and Ventress were fighting in. But okay, if it wasn't the blast then what the hell was it?

Then read Star Wars Republic: Trackdown. Tholme does plenty of impressive things in there.

Nope, it didn't diminish cause he still fights well later on in the war. We don't know how long Sora and Tholme were fighting Dooku for before Dooku managed to dispatch Sora. It may have taken a long time for Dooku to be able to get Sora in such a position where he could disarm him and then take him out via Force Lightning. And naturally Tholme alone wouldn't last long against Dooku.

Sora wasn't trying his hardest against Mace. And I don't have to prove it cause I don't need to prove a negative.

Nope. Against Mace Kenobi would be screwed cause Mace could take him out with the Force like Dooku did in ROTS. And I doubt Anakin's furious swordplay would do well against Mace, not better than Sora's Vaapad, anyway. If Bulq would get beaten by Mace faster than Skywalker would it's because Mace knows Vaapad so well. And yes, I think that Bulq could take Obsession Anakin or Obi-Wan, though it sure as hell wouldn't be easy.

"The Dark Side I sense in you."

Did I say that? No, I didn't, I said she should have sensed the blaster bolt coming towards her just as the Jedi on Geonosis did in AOTC when they faught droids. But she should have been able to see the damn Magnaguard lift the gun and point it at her.

My bad. It says Cin > Grievous. So I think he should be able to take out Asajj, too.