Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

well, this series has stirred up a lot of controversy among the 'cosmic elite'. heheh. aka -- those guys who debate the cosmic stuff all the time!! anyhow, i just wanted to get some ideas down and shared, and i would welcome others to do the same.

***IF YOU PLAN ON ACTING LIKE AN ASS TOWARD ME OR ANY OTHER PARTICIPANT IN THIS THREAD I WILL REPORT YOU AS SUCH. FIRST AND ONLY WARNING!***

so, let's start off by answering an oft-asked question:

is the end canon?



http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7670/thanoshb3.th.jpg

undoubtedly.

and unfortunately . . . grumblegrumblegrumble . . .

now, there are basically 2 prevailing thoughts as regards THE END.

***SPOILERS***

































1. first theory states that near the conclusion of the series, thanos destroyed/absorbed/ENDED the entire MULTIVERSE.

2. second theory states that near the conclusion, thanos destroyed the 616 UNIVERSE.

both i think have some merit. personally, i subscribe to #2. the reason i do is pretty simple: i believe when eternity and infinity and living tribunal are "absorbed into" thanos near the end, that these were merely representations of these concepts, and not the concepts themselves. that is to say: i think they were m-bodies that were absorbed. as a result, after the m-bodies were absorbed, the universe (spatially and temporally) still existed because the m-bodies were merely representations/manifestations of these concepts and NOT the entirety of said concepts.

as a result, thanos needed to CONTINUE to absorb the universe around him to absorb the TRUE essence of both infinity and eternity. i see no way he could have absorbed the true essence of the living tribunal, who is believed to have an m-body in existence in every universe.

i also believe this explains why thanos was still afraid others might rise against him even AFTER he absorbed the m-bodies. eternity and infinity could create OTHER m-bodies, lt could send another m-body, and the high ranking magical entities/demons (many enormously powerful) would still have remained in existence to "threaten him".

some of you may be thinking: m-bodies?? what the hell are m-bodies?? in the next couple posts i'll show you.

This is what Andy Schmidt who is an editor from Marvel and currently working on Annihilation had to say about Marvel: The End.

"Someone else answered this later, but just so you get it from me as well: MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END is an out of continuity story, however, Thanos does refer to some "event" that seemingly bore a similar resemblence to the THE END story that occured some time in between INFINITY ABYSS and THANOS #1."


Also in Akhenaten's profile in OHOTMU A-Z #1 in 2006 it says that he is from the Earth-4321 reality. And it also states "At least some of Earth-4321's events may have occurred in the Earth-616 reality, but the extent of this duplication remains unrevealed."
http://img189.imageshack.us/my.php?image=akhenatenxl9.jpg

All the other "The End" books were not canon and more of a what if. But the event that happened in Marvel: The End were hinted to in Thanos solo comic and also in the profile for Thanos in Annihilation.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5972/q1fx7.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7251/q2iw8.th.jpg

m-bodies are physical manifestations of abstract entities. they are NOT the entities themselves. in this issue of quasar (#37) quasar is searching for the REAL eternity. he finds only m-bodies. and he finds them in some . . . odd places . . .

but a'll get back to that. here's some more info on m-bodies:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4511/q3ue5.th.jpg

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2280/q4ro3.th.jpg

here we have quasar coming upon his first eternity m-body in the dimension of manifestations. apparently the SAME realm where lt, warlock and the cosmics all met to discuss the fate of the infinity gauntlet . . .

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6788/q5jw6.th.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6765/q6rp1.th.jpg

again, warlock is searching for the TRUE eternity. that m-body is NOT the true eternity. after all, how COULD it be the 'entirety' of eternity when simultaneous m-bodies exist? beyond that, m-bodies exist simultaneously of infinity as well. even if someone COULD absorb or wipe out eternity, they only get HALF of everything. infinity represents the other half.

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1804/q9ig5.th.jpg

http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5584/q8ij9.th.jpg

there is one more scan i did not post showing a meeting of eternity and the cosmics with .. . pre-retcon beyonder!

3 m-bodies existing simultaneously. they can't ALL be 'ALL' of eternity.

More or Less I would say The End is a rather likely possibility as to how the MU might come to an end.

now, what happens if an m-body is destroyed?

not much. the abstract gets a new one. a case is shown here when dr strange 'destroys' death.

http://img439.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death30xe.jpg

http://img383.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death48gz.jpg

here again, in a non-canon book, reed richards 'destroys' an lt m-body along with several other m-bodies:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4206/ltdestroyedjq6.th.jpg

abstracts simply go get other bodies. magus even made distorted m-bodies of all earth's heroes!

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4025/magusvu4.th.jpg

quasar himself thought he 'killed' anomaly. but turns out that too was just an m-body.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4025/magusvu4.th.jpg

so, if they WERE m-bodies thanos wiped out, it makes sense he would fear reprisal from other m-bodies or other high powered beings who might rise against him. to eliminate the threat he absorbed the entire universe. no need to say the multiverse was absorbed, and the little blue globes could still be universes within a multiverse contained in an even larger omniverse and atleza is just the 616 anchor, as opposed to a multiversal anchor which to my knowledge has never been stated in a comic.

there are also the numerous times universe is mentioned in the series that help support the notion. and these are characters (and a writer) ACUTELY aware of the difference between a universe and a multiverse. for THEM to use the terms interchangeably seems . . . strange . . .

oh, and one scan i forgot: here are MORE m-bodies of death:

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/943/q7cf8.th.jpg

i invite comment and discussion. i am not MARRIED to this theory. it just seems to fit well in my mind.

i hope this generates at least some decent discussion.

I hate cosmic discussions.

But thanks for adding to my confusion. Interesting stuff, at least.

^ Wow. First mod I've seen post something normal on these forums since I got here.

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
^ Wow. First mod I've seen post something normal on these forums since I got here.

Yeah, I'm the "normal" mod. Not smart enough to get disgusted with you guys and only come on for administrative stuff.

TL; DR


anyway....The End sounds intresting, i'll pick up the current Ish or somethng, see if i like it...cosmics are usually not my field

Originally posted by leonidas
is the end canon?Isn't it meant to be akin to a What if...? in the same way that the other ":The End" books have basically been.

The End : out of continuity.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
The End : out of continuity.

and where did you get that little tidbit of info . . .?

and x: you may be right. basically i think only thanos REMEMBERS the events of the END though. so to other characters it's as though the events never happened. but again, unless someone has definitive proof to show it's non-canon, it IS canon. there were editors' comments floating around, but i'm pretty sure if you looked at the date of the comments, the thanos issue came out AFTER said comments were made.

I was basically under the assumption that The End books weren't canon in general, and were simply imaginings by writers of how things could end for all their respective characters.

Originally posted by thedude1948
This is what Andy Schmidt who is an editor from Marvel and currently working on Annihilation had to say about Marvel: The End.

"Someone else answered this later, but just so you get it from me as well: MARVEL UNIVERSE: THE END is an out of continuity story, however, Thanos does refer to some "event" that seemingly bore a similar resemblence to the THE END story that occured some time in between INFINITY ABYSS and THANOS #1."


Also in Akhenaten's profile in OHOTMU A-Z #1 in 2006 it says that he is from the Earth-4321 reality. And it also states "At least some of Earth-4321's events may have occurred in the Earth-616 reality, but the extent of this duplication remains unrevealed."
http://img189.imageshack.us/my.php?image=akhenatenxl9.jpg

All the other "The End" books were not canon and more of a what if. But the event that happened in Marvel: The End were hinted to in Thanos solo comic and also in the profile for Thanos in Annihilation.

This is the same type of conclusion I have been finding from any Marvel
writersor editors that have been asked about it.
Out of continuity.

Good thread, man.
If you want, I can list quotes, stating that it is out of cont.

If not, I think TheDude1948 gives some really good info.

I also like the way you laid out the M-Body deal. Some people just didn't seem to understand it.
Very cool, all around.

I think basically Marvel never intended the End to be in continuity, then Starlin wanted it to be the basis for his Thanos series so they had to come up with some lazy excuses. I think of it as in-continuity, just because it was referenced in a canon 616 story and its not like it changed anything, everything was reset and Thanos (and maybe Warlock) was pretty much the only character affected, so its no big deal.

Heres some further proof that Marvel: The End was cannon:

In the official bio's from the Annihilation series, when you look up Thanos, under Threat Level it says:

"Universal/One time reality ender"

Heres the scans, look under Threat Level:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9458/thanos1zx6.th.jpg

Here it is outlined in red, so you don't miss it:
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/9330/thanos2tk8.th.jpg


Now,

Thanos was a Universal Threat when he held the IG, and even the cosmic cube, but was he a reality ender at this point? no

The only time Thanos has truly ended all of reality was when he possessed THOTI. yes

I'm not saying whether or not Thanos destroyed a Universe or a Multiverse, I'm just providing additional proof that "The End" arch was in fact cannonical.

Originally posted by Galan007
Heres some further proof that Marvel: The End was cannon:

In the official bio's from the Annihilation series, when you look up Thanos, under Threat Level it says:

"Universal/One time reality ender"

Heres the scans, look under Threat Level:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9458/thanos1zx6.th.jpg

Here it is outlined in red, so you don't miss it:
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/9330/thanos2tk8.th.jpg


Now,

Thanos was a Universal Threat when he held the IG, and even the cosmic cube, but was he a reality ender at this point? no

The only time Thanos has truly ended all of reality was when he possessed THOTI. yes

I'm not saying whether or not Thanos destroyed a Universe or a Multiverse, I'm just providing additional proof that "The End" arch was in fact cannonical.
You consider THAT proof ? Two words from a website ?

Andy Schmidt said : out of continuity. That's good enough for me.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
You consider THAT proof ? Two words from a website ?

Andy Schmidt said : out of continuity. That's good enough for me. Website?

That bio is from a comic book my friend......

Its from the Nova Corps Files in the Annihilation series

Originally posted by Galan007
Heres some further proof that Marvel: The End was cannon:

In the official bio's from the Annihilation series, when you look up Thanos, under Threat Level it says:

"Universal/One time reality ender"

Heres the scans, look under Threat Level:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9458/thanos1zx6.th.jpg

Here it is outlined in red, so you don't miss it:
http://img287.imageshack.us/img287/9330/thanos2tk8.th.jpg


Now,

Thanos was a Universal Threat when he held the IG, and even the cosmic cube, but was he a reality ender at this point? no

The only time Thanos has truly ended all of reality was when he possessed THOTI. yes

I'm not saying whether or not Thanos destroyed a Universe or a Multiverse, I'm just providing additional proof that "The End" arch was in fact cannonical.

Or, at least some parts of it were. Didn't another poster provide the proof that said that certain Earth 4321 events also happened in 616?

Can we all agree that The End is not in Continuity?

Originally posted by Soljer
Or, at least some parts of it were. Didn't another poster provide the proof that said that certain Earth 4321 events also happened in 616? shrug

I'm just going by what was stated in the Annihilation bio...

Originally posted by Galan007
Website?

That bio is from a comic book my friend......

Its from the Nova Corps Files in the Annihilation series
Okay.

Still no proof whatsoever.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Okay.

Still no proof whatsoever. I think its descent proof seeing as how its stated on pannel...

You know, cannon is only what readers want to be. Only editors and vs-debaters care for "cannon".

http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=22495&page=1

Originally posted by Horrificus
http://x-mencomics.com/xfan/forums/showthread.php?t=22495&page=1 That Quote was taken in August of 2003

By Tom's own definition Marvel: The End was non-cannonical untill a later story made it so...

And by the pannel evidence I posted, The Annihilation arch seemingly made Marvel: The End cannonical.



EDIT:

Also if you go to the actual site, you will find Tom confirming that Marvel: The End has since been confirmed as cannon....

This quote is a few posts below the quote that Horrificus chose to highlight.

problem with editor-speak is this: writers do not always choose to follow what the editor 'recommends'. 'memos' seem to get lost occasionally. hyperspace is a recent case in point. editors at dc say hyperspace no longer exists. and yet currently the linear men still exist and hyperspace has been mentioned in numerous recent books.

similarly with THE END. editors can 'say' what they'd like. i'll remain consistent and say that what is shown in books is what should be the ultimate arbiter in these cases. more than one book refers to the events in THE END. despite what editors want to claim, that makes it canon imo -- at least until an official retcon takes place.

on-panel proof>editor-speak imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
on-panel proof>editor-speak imo.

I agree.

Originally posted by Galan007
EDIT:

Also if you go to the actual site, you will find Tom confirming that Marvel: The End has since been confirmed as cannon....

This quote is a few posts below the quote that Horrificus chose to highlight.

nice find.

so can we all agree and say it IS canon . . .?

Originally posted by Galan007
That Quote was taken in August of 2003

By Tom's own definition Marvel: The End was non-cannonical untill a later story made it so...

And by the pannel evidence I posted, The Annihilation arch seemingly made Marvel: The End cannonical.



EDIT:

Also if you go to the actual site, you will find Tom confirming that Marvel: The End has since been confirmed as cannon....

This quote is a few posts below the quote that Horrificus chose to highlight.
In this statement, he does not say it is definitely in continuity.
He says that the evidence may be implying that it is.
I see you are referring to this:

Originally posted by Horrificus
In this statement, he does not say it is definitely in continuity.
He says that the evidence may be implying that it is.
I see you are referring to this: That statment certainly leads to "The End" being more cannonical then not...

Originally posted by Horrificus
In this statement, he does not say it is definitely in continuity.
He says that the evidence may be implying that it is.
I see you are referring to this:
The only definite answer he has ever given, is that it is not in continuity.
But, I admit he seems to be considering other options at the time of this interview.
But, again, he does not state that he has changed his stance on it yet.

After the statement he makes, showing doubt, he immediately turns around and says this:

I have no stake in whether this story is in Continuity or not.
Either way, it does nothing to my interpretation of the story effecting Universes, while posing a threat to the Multiverse and dealing with M Bodies of Eternity, Infinity and LT.

But, it would seem that there is a LOT of evidence against this story being In Continuity. You guys decide.

Andy Schmidt's comments on "The End" were made a couple of months ago.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=2906867&postcount=80

It seems the official Marvel view of it is that the events in "The End" happened in Earth-4321 but were also mirrored in 616 to some extent. And Thanos did end reality from the comments in Thanos profile in Annihilation (Which Andy Schmidt edits). But this does seem somewhat of a cheap cop out to what Starlin wrote in Thanos #2.

i'm curious: i can't read the link cuz i'm at work and the filter prevents me. but does that imply that it was earth-4321 and its universe that were 'ended'? or was 616 ALSO 'ended'?

if it were the MULTIVERSE that thanos polished off, then obviously even if it DID happen in 4321 it would STILL have impacted 616 . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
1. first theory states that near the conclusion of the series, thanos destroyed/absorbed/ENDED the entire MULTIVERSE

I agree.



Originally posted by leonidas
2. second theory states that near the conclusion, thanos destroyed the 616 UNIVERSE.

I disagree.



Originally posted by leonidas
both i think have some merit. personally, i subscribe to #2. the reason i do is pretty simple: i believe when eternity and infinity and living tribunal are "absorbed into" thanos near the end, that these were merely representations of these concepts, and not the concepts themselves. that is to say: i think they were m-bodies that were absorbed. as a result, after the m-bodies were absorbed, the universe (spatially and temporally) still existed because the m-bodies were merely representations/manifestations of these concepts and NOT the entirety of said concepts.

as a result, thanos needed to CONTINUE to absorb the universe around him to absorb the TRUE essence of both infinity and eternity.

If Eternity is just a M-body that's supposedly just a representation of the whole, how do you explain this:


Gamora enters Eternity, (the "M-body" and ends up inside the Infinite Universe he is.
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7292/gug7.th.jpg


And this:

Thanos became the Universe, by taking Eternity's (the "M-body" place
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4971/godhoodyn7.th.jpg



And this:

When Korvac erased this Universe, it was Eternity (the "M-body" that was erased
http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/5489/kpz4.th.jpg



And this:

When Insane Genis destroyed the Universe, it was Eternity (the M-body) he crushed
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6966/exx6.th.jpg

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6002/ckf3.th.jpg



And this:

When (the M-bodys) of Eternity & Death (before Infinity existed) who are guided by the Godly Ones, enter the neighboring VOID, (where there is NOTHINGNESS) Eternity and Death BECOME a New Universe

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/4162/e3va2.th.jpg

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6853/e1uh9.th.jpg

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/4202/e2fe6.th.jpg



One more,

And this:

When Reed Erased and Created a New Multi-verse, again, it's Eternity/Infinity (the M-body) that's Erased and Created anew

http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/6069/1unisusedbyreedtodestroyabraxa.th.jpg

http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/932/2undestroysmultieternityinfini.th.jpg



Originally posted by leonidas
i see no way he could have absorbed the true essence of the living tribunal, who is believed to have an m-body in existence in every universe.

Point out for me where in Quasar #37 is it ever mentioned that the Living Tribunal has an M-body?

Or any issue in any Comic for that matter.


Originally posted by leonidas
i also believe this explains why thanos was still afraid others might rise against him even AFTER he absorbed the m-bodies. eternity and infinity could create OTHER m-bodies,

They weren't even able to strike him once, and he's still worried about the same M-bodys?


Originally posted by leonidas
lt could send another m-body,

Your going to have to show me where has it ever been stated that the Living Tribunal has M-bodys.


Originally posted by leonidas
and the high ranking magical entities/demons (many enormously powerful) would still have remained in existence to "threaten him".

If Eternity/Infinity and the Living Tribunal were a joke to Thanos, I'm positively sure the last thing on Thanos's mind of worries was Mephisto and company.

Originally posted by leonidas
i also believe this explains why thanos was still afraid others might rise against him even AFTER he absorbed the m-bodies. eternity and infinity could create OTHER m-bodies,


"For IF this BAND Could Defy Me...might not OTHERS be equally Foolish?"

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/4746/t6bi7.th.jpg

"Could I ALLOW ANY to question my divine Authority?


"NO....So I CONTINUED to Absorb ALL that MIGHT Threaten my Reign...Until....

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/2830/t7fq0.th.jpg


"Nothing Remained"

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/991/allhecouldum7.th.jpg



I'm also interested in WHY would Thanos call the SAME Eternity and Infinity (assuming that's the case) "OTHERS"?

"Others" by it's very definition means: "used to refer to a person or thing that is different or distinct from one already mentioned or known about"


Sure it might be "Another M-body" but it's STILL coming from the SAME Universal Entity Eternity.

And again (assuming that's the case) WHY would Eternity even consider to show up with ONE "M-body" if it's just a portion of his power or being?

When towards the end of issue #5 he was treated like a child's toy, after unleashing ALL the Fury and Power his ONE M-body could muster:
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/600/etnk4.th.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/539/et2xm3.th.jpg

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/9965/et3pd1.th.jpg

Why not just send 1000 M-bodys or Millions of "M-bodys", because Eternity MUST know, that his ONE M-body was a total Joke to Thanos.


And this quote from the top scan really calls my attention:


"For IF this BAND Could Defy Me...might not OTHERS be equally Foolish?"

Especially, "might not OTHERS be equally Foolish?"


If Eternity/Infinity and the Living Tribunal, were already Foolish enough to attack Thanos,

WHY is Thanos referring to "OTHERS that might be equally Foolish"?

If they (Eternity/Infinity & LT) ALREADY were?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree.


clap








i KNEW this question was coming . . .

i've given it some thought, so bear with me. there is no reason that as a representation possessing some measure of the abstract's powers and conceptuality that someone couldn't 'enter' eternity and end up within the universe. but what if the m-body is manifest WITHIN the universe itself? what if someone entered him then? i asked you before how can the m-body represent the entirety of the universe and still manifest WITHIN the universe. you said it was strange, but that's how it is. what if it's not? what if some m-bodies are granted more power than others? that is of course speculation, but it seems to make sense to me. when the m-body travels, does the whole universe go with it? is the whole universe in EACH of the 3 m-bodies that existed simultaneously in that quasar issue? how is THAT possible? perhaps if an m-body is granted the full scope of eternity's power it WOULD end the universe if it was killed? i just happen to think that description fits the examples better than saying each m-body has all of eternity's might. what your saying also contradicts quasar's quest. if the m-body really IS 'all' of eternity, why was he searching for it despite finding a host of m-bodies?

there is also the fact that many m-bodies have been destroyed in the past of OTHER abstracts (death, lt, to name a couple) but they always come back. if ALL their power were IN those m-bodies, then when those m-bodies were destroyed, the abstracts should ALSO have been destroyed. is eternity the ONLY abstract who uses 'full-power' m-bodies? just dosen't stand to reason for me, my friend.

to address your second post for a moment because it serves in part to speak to what i'm getting at: the fact that even after eternity was seen "unleashing ALL the Fury and Power his ONE M-body could muster" in that issue #5 you referenced, speaks to a very limited amount of power possessed by that m-body. after all, the attack only destroyed a simple planet. were eternity truly bringing ALL his power to bear, he could have 'mustered' a WHOLE lot more than that . . .



i knew THIS question was waiting for me too. you're obviously correct in assuming that it was NOT mentioned in quasar #37. it WAS however SHOWN. here again, like eternity, we see at least 2 lt m-bodiesexisting simultaneously:


http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6788/q5jw6.th.jpg

the famous meeting with the cosmics in IG.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4998/lt10ek4.th.jpg

the almost equally famous meeting with the beyonder. like eternity, BOTH m-bodies cannot POSSIBLY possess the full power of the abstract. even in that scan where reed blows lt away, obviously lt was not 'really' destroyed, only the m-body was. if that's not enough, even your favourite website claims that lt has an m-body in every universe. (yah, i know -- you HATE bios. i just threw it in as a minor additional confirmation, but seeing multiple lt m-bodies existing at once is pretty conclusive, imho.)



lt, infinity and eternity DID resist him more than the others though. and some of the other entities i referred to (ie the vishanti) are said to be multiversal in scope of power. they would be more of a threat than the assembled friggin' heroes at least! (heroes?? what the hell were they even DOING there??)

done, i think.

aside from all that, i know you really like that quote where thanos worries a lot about the 'others' who might attack him, but how do you explain away all these references and the many others that were made throughout the series?

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6073/warlock1jg2.th.jpg

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8153/warlock2rf1.th.jpg

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7224/warlock3kc8.th.jpg

again, these are perhaps the 2 most 'cosmically knowledgeable' characters in marvel, written by the cosmic guru himself, and yet REPEATEDLY they use the term UNIVERSE. surely if ANYONE understood it was the multiverse, these characters, written by starlin, would be the ones, no?

i know i won't likely convince you, but . . . it was worth a shot.

The M Bodies are basically "containers" for a portion of the eccense of the Abstract Entity. It's power, what it represents, it's psyche, it's very being. Otherwise, it would not be able to represent itself accurately in the M Body. But, it can.

When Gamora jumped into the Eternity M Body (which was only about 40 or 50 ft tall), she was still, in eccense, leaping into the Universe, and obviously trusted that Eternity was going to get her where she needed to go.

First of all, Eternity DID NOT compact itself into a 40 ft form.
Nor did Eternity grow Gamora to infinite, Universal size.
And, if Gamora was just jumping into a big blob of 616 universe, when she jumped into Eternity, she would have had no idea where she would end up.
So, to take that scan literally, does not add up.

The M Bodies and the actual Abstracts are Linked. They ARE the entity.
That was never debated.

Please ignore anything else you all hear. The M Body situation is one that is SOLIDLY embeded in Marvel. There is no room for guessing, or wrong opinions.

Think of the M Bodies as a kind of a cross between a symbol of the abstract entity, and a portal to that entity's very being. It would seem that their power can flow out through the M Body, as well as act like a portal, allowing the TRUE entity to be effected as well.

But, make no mistake people. The Universe, the Living Tribunal, Death, Infinity, and all the other Abstract Entities are not 40 or 50 ft tall, nor are they compressing themselves into this view. These are Universal and Multiversal entities, not mailmen that show up in person on a regular basis.

Originally posted by leonidas
done, i think.

aside from all that, i know you really like that quote where thanos worries a lot about the 'others' who might attack him, but how do you explain away all these references and the many others that were made throughout the series?

http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/6073/warlock1jg2.th.jpg

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8153/warlock2rf1.th.jpg

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7224/warlock3kc8.th.jpg

again, these are perhaps the 2 most 'cosmically knowledgeable' characters in marvel, written by the cosmic guru himself, and yet REPEATEDLY they use the term UNIVERSE. surely if ANYONE understood it was the multiverse, these characters, written by starlin, would be the ones, no?

i know i won't likely convince you, but . . . it was worth a shot. He effected A UNIVERSE. Period.
Please, people. Do not get talked into ignoring the words of the writers and the words on panel. This is simple.
He brought about the end of A universe.
That is all. The writer said it. The comic says it.
There is no reason to look into it anymore. If somebody has an arguement that is totally based upon me having to ignore what I am seeing and reading, I say that is a very POOR arguement.

Originally posted by Horrificus
He effected A UNIVERSE. Period.
Please, people. Do not get talked into ignoring the words of the writers and the words on panel. This is simple.
He brought about the end of A universe.
That is all. The writer said it. The comic says it.
There is no reason to look into it anymore. If somebody has an arguement that is totally based upon me having to ignore what I am seeing and reading, I say that is a very POOR arguement.
Wait, so are you saying that you actually accept the LT scan where it's stated that he's present in ALL the multiversES simultaneously? Cause that is the way it's actually written in the comic.

I find it fascinating reading cosmic debates, as I tend to not no as much as others. I'm actually enjoying this

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, so are you saying that you actually accept the LT scan where it's stated that he's present in ALL the multiversES simultaneously? Cause that is the way it's actually written in the comic.

are you saying you are ignoring the dozen other scans that say multiversE . . .? cuz they're all written in comics as well . . .

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, so are you saying that you actually accept the LT scan where it's stated that he's present in ALL the multiversES simultaneously? Cause that is the way it's actually written in the comic.
If it has only been stated in that one instance, where Kubik says it, I would have to lean toward "no". But, at the same time, I am open to it going either way.
If he exists in all multiverses, he suddenly becomes the most powerful character in the Omniverse, until another comes along.
Because that means he is "Judging" all Multiverses for the sake of the Omniverse.
If I see a combination of on-panel feats/statements, bio/handbook entries and writers comments, that is good enough for me.
If there is a bunch of evidence like that, pointing in a certain direction, and then there is one small piece of evidence, or a flawed opinion going in the other direction, I still lean toward the majority of clear,hard evidence.
Have to use common sense and logic.
For now...
Yes. He is in charge of an entire Multiverse.
This is supposed to be a being so far removed from anything we can understand, that we... well... that we could not understand it!

Anyway, the fact is, if you believe that his position DOES include the entire Multivers, you almost have to believe when he said that he has a presence in every Universe. This could imply an M Body, or just the ability to spread his consciousness across all universes.

To argue it, goes against what has been shown, said, and is a lot like the whole M body verses actual body debate we are having.
Useless.

Originally posted by leonidas
are you saying you are ignoring the dozen other scans that say multiversE . . .? cuz they're all written in comics as well . . .
But those other instances don't actually contradict that scan. He IS in charge of the multiverse(under TOAA of course). That's true. But very few beings would be concerned with whatever is going on in another multiverse anyway. So unless it's actually stated somewhere that his jurisdiction is actually limited to a single multiverse, then no conflicting evidence exist, and the scan is therefore valid. That scan of LT is unique, because it is a scan of a cosmic level entity who is relearning the structure of Marvel(because much of her former life as the Beyonder was illusionary ). That kind of thing doesn't really happen every day(and to my knowledge, it's the only time it's happened on panel, but I could be wrong about that).

Originally posted by leonidas
but what if the m-body is manifest WITHIN the universe itself? what if someone entered him then?

They can't because the Universe is already open to them, and if he's conscious and aware, why would he let someone jump into him for no reason?


Originally posted by leonidas
i asked you before how can the m-body represent the entirety of the universe and still manifest WITHIN the universe. you said it was strange, but that's how it is.

And until proven otherwise On Panel, that's how it is still.



Originally posted by leonidas
what if it's not? what if some m-bodies are granted more power than others? that is of course speculation,

Speculation indeed.


Originally posted by leonidas
but it seems to make sense to me.

Not to me.


Originally posted by leonidas
when the m-body travels, does the whole universe go with it?

Yes, I already posted the scan, but here it is again:

The "M-bodys" of Eternity and Death are clearly passing from one Universe to another that's a VOID:

The "M-bodys" fills that VOID with Space and Time and all the necessary Concepts, and it becomes a Universe:

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/4162/e3va2.th.jpg

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6853/e1uh9.th.jpg

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/4202/e2fe6.th.jpg



Originally posted by leonidas
is the whole universe in EACH of the 3 m-bodies that existed simultaneously in that quasar issue? how is THAT possible?

If you read that Quasar issue carefully you'll notice those OTHER "M-bodys" are meaningless:

"Eternity is so TRANSFINITE that there are Numerous Manisfestations of him here"
(He could be and probably is talking about Eternities of OTHER Universes, because in the Multi-verse there are an Infinite number of Eternitys)


"Our Dimension contains Reflections of EVERY MANIFESTATION we have EVER DONE"

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7632/et1rn0.th.jpg

"Well, could you point us to a RECENT ONE"
(Obviously MEANING the LEFT OVER Ones are USELESS to them)




And just to add this:

I wonder WHY Quasar, after getting his history lesson about "M-bodys" is ASKING for the REAL ETERNITY, NOT one of his "M-bodys"?

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1112/et4sl3.th.jpg




And hey what do you know, it just so happens to be "the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect of Eternity" .... AND ....

"You mean this Corresponds to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW?"

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5685/et2nl7.th.jpg


Again:


"Yeah, and this Aspect is of RIGHT VINTAGE ... So what's happening to it is GOING ON RIGHT NOW"

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1056/et3vu0.th.jpg

Where?

IN the UNIVERSE, like he clearly said.



Originally posted by leonidas
perhaps if an m-body is granted the full scope of eternity's power it WOULD end the universe if it was killed?

Which is why I posted more than a few scans of that very FACT taking place, I have more scans of Eternity getting rubbed out and the Universe getting the same treatment because of that, just let me know if you need to see those too.


Originally posted by leonidas
i just happen to think that description fits the examples better than saying each m-body has all of eternity's might.

I'm not using logic that sounds proper, On Panel Eternity dies/the Universe dies, Eternity is replaced by Thanos/ the Universe becomes Thanos (literally)


Originally posted by leonidas
what your saying also contradicts quasar's quest. if the m-body really IS 'all' of eternity, why was he searching for it despite finding a host of m-bodies?

It doesn't contradict it at all, you just missed the parts I just posted above, no need to repeat it.


Originally posted by leonidas
there is also the fact that many m-bodies have been destroyed in the past of OTHER abstracts (death, lt, to name a couple) but they always come back. if ALL their power were IN those m-bodies, then when those m-bodies were destroyed, the abstracts should ALSO have been destroyed. is eternity the ONLY abstract who uses 'full-power' m-bodies? just dosen't stand to reason for me, my friend.

And when was LT destroyed besides the End?

If your talking about the Non-Canon scenerio with Reed, LT was NOT destroyed AT ALL:

"This Device will create a Chain Reaction within a Cosmic Being, and harness the beings own power to HURL him through an Endless series of Dimensional Realities"

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/8238/reedsuper3yk7.th.jpg
ALL Reed did, was blast the Cosmics, including LT into other dimesnsions. the Living Tribunal was NOT destroyed in anyway.



And Death:

When did Strange destroy Death?

"I am disappointed in you Strange, Don't you KNOW you CAN'T KILL DEATH"

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/9866/et5xz4.th.jpg


Originally posted by leonidas
is eternity the ONLY abstract who uses 'full-power' m-bodies? just dosen't stand to reason for me, my friend.

Well you were using misinterpreted examples,

the Living Tribunal has NEVER been destroyed except by Thanos in the End, and Death has NEVER been destroyed except by pre-retcon Beyonder, and Thanos with the UN.



Originally posted by leonidas
to address your second post for a moment because it serves in part to speak to what i'm getting at: the fact that even after eternity was seen "unleashing ALL the Fury and Power his ONE M-body could muster" in that issue #5 you referenced, speaks to a very limited amount of power possessed by that m-body. after all, the attack only destroyed a simple planet. were eternity truly bringing ALL his power to bear, he could have 'mustered' a WHOLE lot more than that . . .

It was a concentrated attack aimed at Thanos and Thanos alone, and yet it was so powerful, that took out that Planet.

When ALL the great powers attacked Thanos simultaneously in issue#6, I'm sure they could've taken out the Universe, but it was a concentrated attack aimed at Thanos alone.



Originally posted by leonidas
i knew THIS question was waiting for me too. you're obviously correct in assuming that it was NOT mentioned in quasar #37. it WAS however SHOWN. here again, like eternity, we see at least 2 lt m-bodiesexisting simultaneously:

the famous meeting with the cosmics in IG. the almost equally famous meeting with the beyonder.

Which is really inconsequential, because LT is everywhere simultaneously:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2994/lt2cm.th.jpg

And this has NOTHING to do with "M-bodys"


And the Eternity scan with Beyonder is NOT from Quasar#37.

What's going on there, hmm.


Originally posted by leonidas
like eternity, BOTH m-bodies cannot POSSIBLY possess the full power of the abstract.

No doubt, especially when it's NOT even the same Comic Book.

So tell me where your getting the Beyonder scan from, cause it sure ain't Quasar #37.


Originally posted by leonidas
even in that scan where reed blows lt away, obviously lt was not 'really' destroyed, only the m-body was.

Actually I already proved that you didn't have the full story there,

neither LT nor any of the other Abstracts were "destroyed" ... they were mearely thrown into other dimensions, nothing more.


Originally posted by leonidas
if that's not enough, even your favourite website claims that lt has an m-body in every universe. (yah, i know -- you HATE bios. i just threw it in as a minor additional confirmation,

Please, bios... No no no....


Originally posted by leonidas
but seeing multiple lt m-bodies existing at once is pretty conclusive, imho.)

Only you can't prove those are "M-bodys" in any shape or form, and until you show me On Panel LT being declared as an "M-body" ...were just going to have to except the On Panel evidence that LT does Exist SIMULTANEOUSLY EVERYWHERE, and it has Nothing to do with "M -bodys".


Originally posted by leonidas
lt, infinity and eternity DID resist him more than the others though. and some of the other entities i referred to (ie the vishanti) are said to be multiversal in scope of power. they would be more of a threat than the assembled friggin' heroes at least! (heroes?? what the hell were they even DOING there??)

The Vishanti are no more a threat than the Heroes compared to a HOTI Thanos.

"Multiversal?"

Outside of their Realm they're nobodies.

Originally posted by Horrificus
The M Bodies are basically "containers" for a portion of the eccense of the Abstract Entity. It's power, what it represents, it's psyche, it's very being. Otherwise, it would not be able to represent itself accurately in the M Body. But, it can.

Where On Panel has this ever been mentioned?




Originally posted by Horrificus
When Gamora jumped into the Eternity M Body (which was only about 40 or 50 ft tall), she was still, in eccense, leaping into the Universe, and obviously trusted that Eternity was going to get her where she needed to go.

First of all, Eternity DID NOT compact itself into a 40 ft form.
Nor did Eternity grow Gamora to infinite, Universal size.
And, if Gamora was just jumping into a big blob of 616 universe, when she jumped into Eternity, she would have had no idea where she would end up.

Interesting,

unfortunately Eternity was in a COMA! CATATONIC, so how Gamora "trusted Eternity to get her where she needed to go" is a mystery, since Eternity couldn't even move, talk or think, he was well ... CATATONIC!

"But Eternity has already fallen VICTIM to the Magus and stands before us in a CATATONIC STATE"

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5919/etsk8.th.jpg

"Then you must INDEPENDENTLY FIND a way to Free him from this condition"

(Eternity WASN'T and DIDN'T get anyone anywhere)


Originally posted by Horrificus
So, to take that scan literally, does not add up.

I guess it does.

Originally posted by Horrificus
Please ignore anything else you all hear. There is no room for guessing, or wrong opinions.

Like Gamora "obviously trusting that (a CATATONIC) Eternity was going to get her where she needed to go."

I agree.


Originally posted by Horrificus
The M Body situation is one that is SOLIDLY embeded in Marvel.

No one is disputing that, but the "M-bodys" are the Concepts not some fraction of the Concept.

No one has proven otherwise with On Panel evidence.

Ok, so the entire Universe was 40 ft tall, in a coma, and Gamora jumped into the center of the universe, knew exactly where she was going, and was able to get there.

That is NOT the answer.

The whole purpose of the M Body is so the whole Universe does not have to be involved.



I will have the answers and the proof to the rest tomorrow.
I'm tired.

Remember : You speak of COMICS writers.
Universe, Multiverse and even Omniverse can be used as generic names.
Universe can be used for Multiverse and Omniverse. Omniverse for Multiverse. And i'm pretty sure the "Omniverse" from Captain Britain is just a Multiverse.

Don't be warsies.


Oh, and don't speculate too much on M-Body : It's not because an Abstract is not killed when is boby is destroyed that M-Body is involved : Read Fantastic.

Double post, sorry. Moderator ?

Originally posted by Horrificus
Ok, so the entire Universe was 40 ft tall, in a coma, and Gamora jumped into the center of the universe, knew exactly where she was going, and was able to get there.

Is this a rebuttal or a concurrence?


Originally posted by Horrificus
That is NOT the answer.

So it was a rebuttal.


Originally posted by Horrificus
That is NOT the answer.

According to who though?


Your willingness to willfully ignore the On Panel EVIDENCE?


Or ... the On Panel EVIDENCE that was artistically depicting Gamora entering a 40ft tall Eternity (who was in a Coma) and ending up inside the Infinite Universe?


Originally posted by Horrificus
The whole purpose of the M Body is so the whole Universe does not have to be involved.

And WHERE On Panel is this stated?



Originally posted by Horrificus
I will have the answers and the proof to the rest tomorrow.

You haven't even legitimately answered the First, and your moving on to the rest?

There are some good points being brought up as to whether or not a universe was absorbed, or a Multiverse was absorbed...

Do I believe that a Multiverse was absorbed? yes

The reason I believe this, is because once Thanos began comprehending that there was an astral cancer of sorts, he realized that ALL life would be destroyed.

In his own words:

"Once in the throes of nihilistic madness, I had offered the universe to Mistress Death as a love token."

"Now, in horror I realized that even SHE would fall victim to the approaching termination."

"For in the absence of Life, there can be NO DEATH"

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1217/th1kp0.th.jpg

Now, we know that Death exists in every universe in the Multiverse, so surely if all life were to be absent in only ONE universe, she would not be threatened at all...... Hell when Thanos had the IG Death WANTED him to destroy half the population of a universe to even things out a bit.....

So to fix this astral problem, ask yourself what Thanos would have had to absorb and recreate in order to save Death herself from "falling victim to the approaching termination"

A Multiverse perhaps?

I will have an answer guys, so don't think that this horrible guy has given up. Hehe. You wish.

It's tough keeping track ofall the good points you guys are throwing at me.

My new laptop tooka dump. Troubleshooting all day.

MM, are u using Voodoo on the poor H-man?! HHmmm?

Just kidding.

I also have to agree with the masters guy, when thanos absorbed eternity and infinity he considered the rest of the cosmos a threat to him, and since no one can dispute masters scans showing eternity being the universe like 6 times, there's no reason to believe the eternity and infinity thanos absorbed was anything but the 616 universe.
After he absorbed one universe which was eternity and infinity, he continued on to absorb the rest of the multiverse.
I read quasar 37 and I also didn't see anywhere were it says m-bodys are a fraction of the whole, I never saw any equation being stamped on the m-bodys, only that they are representations of the abstract concept, and masters scans have convinced me that eternity is the universe, literally.

nice job masters thumbup1

Originally posted by Mr Master
And until proven otherwise On Panel, that's how it is still.

you've SEEN multiple m-bodies existing simultaneously in the dimension of manifestations. the comatose eternity was the recent one at the one, but all the others existed AT THE SAME TIME. the comatose eternity would STILL be in the dimension of M currently, were it visited now. but you never answered the question of how can they ALL exist at the same time and still ALL be the 'entirety' of the universe? you said something about the other eternities being 'other eternities throughout the multiverse? to quote you: speculation indeed . . .

beyond that, the manifester clearly states in that quasar issue that he is the manifester for this 'dimension'. in this case i assume he means universe (more of that unreliable terminology) but there is no way i will accept that dimension was substituted for MULTIVERSE . . .



but if as you claim the universe came with him, why a big bang and the birth of a NEW universe? wouldn't etenity's universe have simply been released? actually, the scans look vaguely familar. what book are they from? then i can see if i can find out what happened to the universe eternity left behind, who's narrating and where is he telling the story from. i'd also like to know why eternity left whatever universe he was in.



meaningless? not sure why they would be. they still exist simultaneously with the others. clearly time is meaningless in the dimension of m -- all things exist at once. it's the fact that they exist that gives the impression that not all the m-bodies can contain ALL the power of eternity.



i don't think that's what he meant at all. after all, he was directed to a version of eternity that was meeting with lt. and when faced with that m-body, q said to that m-body:

"I wonder if you might direct me to the SPIRITUAL ENTITY that you REPRESENT."

clearly the m-body is an INCOMPLETE eternity as it does NOT house the spiritual essence of eternity.


yes . . .? because . . . the REAL eternity does not exist within ANY m-body. that's what i've been saying. the spiritual consciousness does NOT reside within the m-body. that's born out by his commenst to the m-body he saw before lt.



you sound like i'm implying there is no connection between the m-body and the universe. that most definitely is NOT what i'm saying. i AM saying that m-bodies are NOT the entirety of the universe. if an m-body WAS the 'whole universe' there wouldn't be more than one in existence, nor would there be a NEED for any more than a SINGLE m-body. and yet, clearly eternity had manifested itself a body many many times and the bodies are are dispatched BY THE MANIFESTER (not the abstract) anywhere in the universe. how could they manifest the entire univserse WITHIN the universe? just makes no sense when it is so easily dealt with byb saying the m-body is a representation of the universe, but not the essence of the universe in its totality.

even the m-body ITSELF is NOT the abstract, but is rather the manifester's people. the manifester speaking to quasar:

"My people and i are living fractals, able to shape ourselves in an infinite manner. WE SERVE as the manifestation-bodies for beings who have no physical forms."

they serve as m-bodies to allow abstracts to interact at a physical level.



and yet the m-body remained in stasis after thanos usurped the position. how could the m-body of eternity BE the universe if THANOS was the universe? the m-body is merely a representation, and nothing more.



it STILL contradicts. qusar ASKED an m-body to tell him where the spiritual entity the m-body represents was at.



fair enough. seems reed did not destroy the m-body. rather he scattered it around dimsensions. odd. too odd to bother getting into . . .





the scan BEFORE the one you chose to paste is the one where strange blows death's body apart . . .



i never said death had been destroyed -- i said death's m-bodies had been destroyed in the past. beyond that, here's a scan of malestrom 'killing' anomaly:


http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/5417/anomalyir6.th.jpg

of course, in issue #37 quasar admits that it was an m-body of the abstract anomaly that was killed by malestrom, not the abstract itself . . .

m-bodies can die while leaving the abstract unharmed.



that's your opinion and of course you're welcome to it. a full, burst of power by eternity should STILL do more than bust one planet. or if he REALLY wanted to concentrate it, he could have done more.



really? then why is lt IN the dimension of manifestations?? TWICE, simultaneously? (oops -- that beyonder scan is issue #38, btw -- it's a continiuation from 37 . . .) the contemplator even says:

"It would appear to be a hearing, or trial. That entity sitting in judgement represents the living tribunal." represents. not "IS". it is a manifestation of lt.



strange DID blow apart death's first m-body, and malestrom DID 'kill' the m-body of anomaly.



hmm, you swung my opinion on the UN's destruction of the multiverse not on any one scan (though one did play a bigger part than others) but rather on the whole CONTEXT of the stories. here we have an entire issue dedicated to m-bodies, set in the realm of manifestations, and we see lt not once, but TWICE, and you still say they are NOT m-bodies?

to use another of your favourites: as you wish.



they battled the tetrarchs OUTSIDE their realm and were STILL enormously powerful.

you still have not addressed the constant use of universe by the most cosmically knowledgeable people and and witers in the game.

Originally posted by unknowable
I also have to agree with the masters guy, when thanos absorbed eternity and infinity he considered the rest of the cosmos a threat to him, and since no one can dispute masters scans showing eternity being the universe like 6 times, there's no reason to believe the eternity and infinity thanos absorbed was anything but the 616 universe.
After he absorbed one universe which was eternity and infinity, he continued on to absorb the rest of the multiverse.
I read quasar 37 and I also didn't see anywhere were it says m-bodys are a fraction of the whole, I never saw any equation being stamped on the m-bodys, only that they are representations of the abstract concept, and masters scans have convinced me that eternity is the universe, literally.

nice job masters thumbup1

the universe was erath 4321, apparently, not 616. the battle took place in 4321 earth. now, if he DID absorb all of 4321 as you say, why was there not a void left behind? we've seen mm post scans of eternity being wiped out in the past. when he's wiped out, there is NOTHING left -- just a void. so why, if ALL of 4321 was absorbed, was there no void replacing that universe?

Originally posted by leonidas
you've SEEN multiple m-bodies existing simultaneously in the dimension of manifestations. the comatose eternity was the recent one at the one, but all the others existed AT THE SAME TIME. the comatose eternity would STILL be in the dimension of M currently, were it visited now. but you never answered the question of how can they ALL exist at the same time and still ALL be the 'entirety' of the universe?

And the answer is that the OLDER or FORMER Manifestations are NOT current or meaningful M-bodys of Eternity.


There are ONLY TWO Manifestations of Eternity during the ENTIRE issue of Quasar #37, This One:

When Warlock was on Trial, which took place in FEBRUARY 92' (Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1)

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/9610/et4wh5.th.jpg


And this one:

Of the Comatose Eternity, which took place in June 92' (Infinity War #1)

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/5685/et2nl7.th.jpg


HOW is this taking place at the same time, when these events are separated by 5 MONTHS and have NO relations whatsoever?

In FACT, the only correspondence of these TWO events with THIS issue of Quasar #37, is the Comatose Eternity coincidentally. (which is a Cross-Over of the Infinity War Arc)


And I might add, Warlock gave up the Infinity Gems WAY BEFORE Eternity was Comatose by Magus.

Quasar interrupted a TRIAL, that had already taken place.


Originally posted by leonidas
you said something about the other eternities being 'other eternities throughout the multiverse? to quote you: speculation indeed . . .

beyond that, the manifester clearly states in that quasar issue that he is the manifester for this 'dimension'. in this case i assume he means universe (more of that unreliable terminology) but there is no way i will accept that dimension was substituted for MULTIVERSE . . .

Actually, he said "OF THIS Dimension"

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1103/et3cf7.th.jpg

AND,

There is ONLY ONE Dimension of Manifestation, and it is the Realm of the Living Tribunal (the Fractals just work there)

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7527/lkr7.th.jpg


So it is quite conceivable, that Other manifestations of Eternity, are indeed of OTHER Universes.


Also, I just remembered your entry of Magus making M-bodys.

You do realize that Magus was NOT in 616 at this point right?

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7238/quasar3821zz9.th.jpg

What does that tell you, that again, indeed beings of OTHER/DIFFERENT Universes can dwell within the Dimension of Manifestation simultaneously.

Originally posted by leonidas
but if as you claim the universe came with him, why a big bang and the birth of a NEW universe? wouldn't etenity's universe have simply been released?

huh?

Re-read the scan.

That's exactly what happened, Eternity and Death released the Universe they were, and became the Universe of that Void.

It's only a New Universe because there was NO Universe there to begin with, the Big Bang is just an explosion that flows outward from a central point, causing Stars and stuff of Stars to hurled in every direction. (that's straight from the scan)

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/4162/e3va2.th.jpg

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6853/e1uh9.th.jpg

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/4202/e2fe6.th.jpg



Originally posted by leonidas
actually, the scans look vaguely familar. what book are they from? then i can see if i can find out what happened to the universe eternity left behind, who's narrating and where is he telling the story from. i'd also like to know why eternity left whatever universe he was in.

I'll gladly fill you in.

The Human Race had evolved due to machinations by the High Evolutionary.
His Biology Altering genetic Bomb exploded over the Earth, evolving all life on Earth to it's next step.

The Mutants, were enhanced even further since they are already a Genetic superiority to Humans, they became "the godlike Ones"

To summarize,

"the godlike ones" decided to merge with Eternity to influence him to become another Universe, so the "the godlike ones" merged with the Inhumans and then merged with Death, together they merged with Eternity, and that's why they left that Universe to become another somewhere else.


The rest of Humanity all became ONE:

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/377/h1pr1.th.jpg

A Power in their own right, and then Humanity became ONE with the Earth:

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7650/h2tm9.th.jpg



This is interesting:

Guess WHO Eternity & Death were that BECAME that Universe?

"From Space, the MANIFESTATION of the Entity"

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6461/et6ea4.th.jpg



As for WHAT happened to the Universe when Eternity left?

Why it imploded of course, because Eternity IS, WAS and ALWAYS will be EVERY Universe in the Multi-verses

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/6757/et5kx6.th.jpg



What if v2. #1 (What if the Avengers had lost the Evolutionary War)

Originally posted by leonidas
meaningless? not sure why they would be. they still exist simultaneously with the others. clearly time is meaningless in the dimension of m -- all things exist at once. it's the fact that they exist that gives the impression that not all the m-bodies can contain ALL the power of eternity.

But again,

your basing your argument on just TWO separate Manifestations AND, they WEREN'T even happening in the same Timeframe.

The ONLY M-body of Eternity that had significance and Power, was the Comatose M-body.


I mean, I don't remember seeing Quasar passing by during Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1, where the TRIAL was taking place.


Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think that's what he meant at all. after all, he was directed to a version of eternity that was meeting with lt. and when faced with that m-body, q said to that m-body:

"I wonder if you might direct me to the SPIRITUAL ENTITY that you REPRESENT."

clearly the m-body is an INCOMPLETE eternity as it does NOT house the spiritual essence of eternity.

yes . . .? because . . . the REAL eternity does not exist within ANY m-body. that's what i've been saying. the spiritual consciousness does NOT reside within the m-body. that's born out by his commenst to the m-body he saw before lt.

Really?

Then what does this mean?


"Since there's nothing to be done for this zoned-out MANIFESTATION of Eternity"

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6615/et1oj2.th.jpg

"Avengers are about to launch an assault on the Cosmic Muckamuck they figure DID THIS to the TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE HERE"


I know you know what TEMPORAL means...


This is why Quasar asked Infinity for the REAL ETERNITY, because the Comatose M-body was of "RIGHT VINTAGE", it "Corresponded to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW" it was "the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect of Eternity"

Which makes it, the "Spiritual Essence/Consciousness of ETERNITY, just like Quasar himself said, the "TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE"



Originally posted by leonidas
you sound like i'm implying there is no connection between the m-body and the universe. that most definitely is NOT what i'm saying. i AM saying that m-bodies are NOT the entirety of the universe.

I proved otherwise.


Originally posted by leonidas
if an m-body WAS the 'whole universe' there wouldn't be more than one in existence, nor would there be a NEED for any more than a SINGLE m-body.

You yourself brought Quasar issues as your ammunition,

so

Like Quasar said,

"the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect of Eternity"

"You mean this Corresponds to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW?"

"Yeah, and this Aspect is of RIGHT VINTAGE ... So what's happening to it is GOING ON RIGHT NOW"


AND the quote that solidifies ALL this:

"Avengers are about to launch an assault on the Cosmic Muckamuck they figure DID THIS to the TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE HERE"

Originally posted by leonidas
and yet, clearly eternity had manifested itself a body many many times and the bodies are are dispatched BY THE MANIFESTER (not the abstract) anywhere in the universe. how could they manifest the entire univserse WITHIN the universe? just makes no sense when it is so easily dealt with byb saying the m-body is a representation of the universe, but not the essence of the universe in its totality.

Like Quasar said,

"the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect of Eternity"

"You mean this Corresponds to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW?"

"Yeah, and this Aspect is of RIGHT VINTAGE ... So what's happening to it is GOING ON RIGHT NOW"


AND the quote that solidifies ALL this:

"Avengers are about to launch an assault on the Cosmic Muckamuck they figure DID THIS to the TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE HERE"



Originally posted by leonidas
even the m-body ITSELF is NOT the abstract, but is rather the manifester's people. the manifester speaking to quasar:

"My people and i are living fractals, able to shape ourselves in an infinite manner. WE SERVE as the manifestation-bodies for beings who have no physical forms."

they serve as m-bodies to allow abstracts to interact at a physical level.

yea,

he also said,

"We have a SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP with the Abstract Beings, an EXCHANGE of ENERGIES that you physicals would not comprehend"

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4529/et2aa6.th.jpg

"SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP" .... "EXCHANGE of ENERGIES"?

They may serve as the M-bodys, but the Abstracts transfer their power to the FORM the Fractals produce.



Which makes sense, and EXPLAINS HOW Thanos became the Universe after taking Eternity's M-body's place, and the many, many OTHER Examples of Eternity's M-body being the actual UNIVERSE.


Originally posted by leonidas
and yet the m-body remained in stasis after thanos usurped the position. how could the m-body of eternity BE the universe if THANOS was the universe? the m-body is merely a representation, and nothing more.

So I should except YOUR opinion/speculation/theory, OVER what I saw On Panel?

AIN'T gonna happen,


Again:


Thanos has THOROUGHLY USURPED ETERNITY'S Rightful POSITION as the CENTER of ALL REALITY"

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4971/godhoodyn7.th.jpg


Originally posted by leonidas
it STILL contradicts. qusar ASKED an m-body to tell him where the spiritual entity the m-body represents was at.

I proved conclusively that he was headed in the right direction, and did indeed FIND the Spiritual Entity the M-body represents, which was the Comatose Eternity M-body.


Originally posted by leonidas
the scan BEFORE the one you chose to paste is the one where strange blows death's body apart . . .

I think not:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/67/dmn2.th.jpg

You call that "blown apart?"

I don't know how many times I seen Mistress Death as a Skeleton beneath it's veil.


Originally posted by leonidas
i never said death had been destroyed -- i said death's m-bodies had been destroyed in the past.

Besides pre-retcon Beyonder, and Thanos with the UN, when else?

btw, Death NEVER came back after these TWO incidents.

Well, Beyonder re-created Death.


Originally posted by leonidas
beyond that, here's a scan of malestrom 'killing' anomaly:

of course, in issue #37 quasar admits that it was an m-body of the abstract anomaly that was killed by malestrom, not the abstract itself . . .

"Must've been an M-Body he slew"

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6222/alh7.th.jpg

This isn't a concrete statement, Quasar isn't even sure of the FACTS there.


Originally posted by leonidas
m-bodies can die while leaving the abstract unharmed.

Tell that the truck load of Eternitys that have died and thus the Universe suffering the same fate.


Originally posted by leonidas
really? then why is lt IN the dimension of manifestations?? TWICE, simultaneously? (oops -- that beyonder scan is issue #38, btw -- it's a continiuation from 37 . . .) the contemplator even says:

"It would appear to be a hearing, or trial. That entity sitting in judgement represents the living tribunal." represents. not "IS". it is a manifestation of lt.

And like I proved with the Warlock TRIAL that took place 5 MONTHS before Eternity became Catatonic, evidently there are events that take place in the Dimension of Manifestation that not in accordance with TIME.

On top of this, WHEN and WHERE the heck is that incident with the Beyonder taking place anyway?


Originally posted by leonidas
strange DID blow apart death's first m-body,

Negative.


Originally posted by leonidas
and malestrom DID 'kill' the m-body of anomaly.

Supposedly.


Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, you swung my opinion on the UN's destruction of the multiverse not on any one scan (though one did play a bigger part than others) but rather on the whole CONTEXT of the stories. here we have an entire issue dedicated to m-bodies, set in the realm of manifestations, and we see lt not once, but TWICE, and you still say they are NOT m-bodies?

I explained myself extensively just now,

there are M-bodys, and M-bodys, and the MOST RECENT ones are the Abstract themselves taken FORM by the Fractals.


Eternity & Infinity were absorbed by Thanos in the End, and that was the first Universe he absorbed, then he moved on to the rest of the Multi-verse.


Originally posted by leonidas
to use another of your favourites: as you wish.

As the On Panel proof presents, my friend.


Originally posted by leonidas
they battled the tetrarchs OUTSIDE their realm and were STILL enormously powerful.

Your kidding right?


Originally posted by leonidas
you still have not addressed the constant use of universe by the most cosmically knowledgeable people and and witers in the game.

Because I proved before that the term, "Universe" can stand for "Multi-verse" in Marvel.

Here AGAIN,


Scans of ENTROPY (the M-BODY) CREATING/BECOMING the New ETERNITY which is the UNIVERSE,

and yes, the UNIVERSE IS .....


the M-BODY of ETERNITY!



http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/9608/1ai8.th.jpg


This is HOW GENIS-VELL helped ENTROPY, GENIS shot ENTROPY (with Entropy's consent) and ENTROPY exploded into a UNIVERSE

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/1919/2gm2.th.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8969/3ux7.th.jpg


Well well well, guess WHO is the Actual UNIVERSE ENTIRE?

You guessed it folks,

ETERNITY AGAIN!

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/757/4yt3.th.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8126/5me1.th.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4766/6bm5.th.jpg

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4291/eeg3.th.jpg


HOW much MORE Proof can I post?

Originally posted by leonidas
the universe was erath 4321, apparently, not 616. the battle took place in 4321 earth.


First off, where On Panel is this 4321 Universe mentioned?


If that isn't 616, why is Thanos reminiscing about his time with the Cosmic Cube?

If that isn't 616, why is Thanos reminiscing about his time with the Infinity Gauntlet?

If that isn't 616, why is Thanos reminiscing about his time when he died and became Death's servant?


http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/6913/t2cm7.th.jpg

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7412/tzv7.th.jpg


And don't tell me that perhaps an "Alternate Version" coincidentally happened to have the EXACT same experiences as Thanos 616.

As you know, that's why they are termed "Alternate" because they are different, as ALL What Ifs prove, in one form or another a character's History has changed.


Originally posted by leonidas
now, if he DID absorb all of 4321 as you say, why was there not a void left behind? we've seen mm post scans of eternity being wiped out in the past. when he's wiped out, there is NOTHING left -- just a void. so why, if ALL of 4321 was absorbed, was there no void replacing that universe?

That's an easy one,

because Thanos never stopped and allowed a Void to appear, he consecutively absorbed the 616 Universe (Eternity/Infinity) and transitioned right into absorbing the Multi-verse.

After he absorbs LT and the 616 Universe Thanos says,

"Until this Inferno raged completely Out of Control"
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/4506/1sl1.th.jpg
"Not even Victory could quiet the Turmoil within me"


Thanos NEVER stopped, he absorbed everything in one seamless flow:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6219/2fa7.th.jpg


Until...


"Nothing Remained"
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/991/allhecouldum7.th.jpg

I did not know what to quote so I'll just say wow masters, WoW!

you amaze me again great job thumbsup

Originally posted by Mr Master
And the answer is that the OLDER or FORMER Manifestations are NOT current or meaningful M-bodys of Eternity.

HOW is this taking place at the same time, when these events are separated by 5 MONTHS and have NO relations whatsoever?

i truly cannot grasp how they are 'meaningless'. quasar was almost killed by the m-body that was sent at him because he was interferring where he was not supposed to. time was meaningless in the dimension of m. we saw THREE (not 2) seperate eternities all existing in the dimension at the same time. (one was with the beyonder, one was in a coma and the other was with lt . . .) the comatose m-body was comatose because the ACTUAL spirit was placed in a coma -- obviously the m-body would reflect that.

i still don't think you're clear on what i'm saying about m-bodies: they ARE the 'essence' of the abstract. but they CAN vary. you don't believe strange 'killed' that death m-body that's fine. i showed you LOADS of other m-bodies of death EXISTING SIDE-BY-SIDE (doesn't get much more simultaneous than that as they were all SEEN at the same instant -- do ALL those m-bodies possess ALL of death's power . . .?) on the first page, you choose not to believe that quasar knows what he's talking about when speaking of anomaly, you say the other m-bodies in the dimension are meaningless (still not sure why when they were able to act independent of the INITIAL surroundings) . . .

have you ever seen the universe ended WITHOUT showing the eternity m-body . . .? because i don't seem to recall seeing the m-body of multi-eternity being absorbed by thanos, or multi-eternity even resisting him. surely if a singular eternity could resist, MULTI could do so even more . . .

anyway, like i said: i think they ARE the essence of the spiritual being they represent. but the body can be affected while the 'consciousness' remains unaffected. in that way, the body can be killed or destroyed, while the 'essence' remains untouched. if someone is OUTSIDE eternity and wanted to REACH the essence, they would clearly have to go inside the m-body, but the 'essence' can still be acting independent of the body itself. what affects the m-body DOES NOT NECESSARILY AFFECT THE ESSENCE OF THAT ABSTRACT.

in a nutshell, that's basically what i'm trying to say. in your scans where the universe is destroyed, it is clear that the consciousness is ALSO destroyed. the m-body is meaningless -- the consciousness is EVERYTHING. that's why when thanos usurped eternity's position, the m-body remained, inert and useless. because the consciousness of eternity had been thrust aside and replaced.



but the m-bodies were STILL current and still 'functioning' as though the events were occuring 'now'. quasar's interference angered lt and a NEW event sprung from it. were the event REPLAYED, we likely WOULD see quasar present.



how exactly does that scan prove there is only ONE dimension of manifestations? stands to reason that lt WOULD appear in the 616 dimension of m if that's where he was needed. where else would he manifest . . .?



again speculation (which is fine . . . i just happen to disagree with that particular speculation) but it is no more factual than my claim that m-bodies can possess different amounts of power within them. my notion has SOME basis in fact as quasar asks:

"How much input does a being have with how they're represented?"

the manifester answers: "It varies. As much as they want." he then shows q an m-body of mistress love drawn from q's mind.



yes . . .



i'll not get back into THAT old debate. you think somehow that the 'barren region' of space magus claimed as his own was outside the 616. i absolutely do not. so to you he was outside the universe. to me he was not. this is not the place to rehash that old classic.

Originally posted by Mr Master
What if v2. #1 (What if the Avengers had lost the Evolutionary War)

what if . . .? anyway, i'll check out the issue, but as a what if, it's not relevent anyway . . .

btw, it looks like the earth was left at the end even after eternity headed out of town. is that what happened? how could it have if that earth was part of eternity?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here AGAIN,

the M-BODY of ETERNITY!

they are OUTSIDE eternity/the universe. how ELSE could they envision the universe UNLESS it were an m-body? the universe is boundless, the m-body is defined and physical. the purpose of the m-body is to allow a physical being to see and interact with the abstract. it REPRESENTS the abstract and it's representation can vary. that does not mean that it is the entirety of the abstract. i've tried to explain this a couple times. fine by me if you disagree.

Originally posted by Mr Master
First off, where On Panel is this 4321 Universe mentioned?

i suspect you know it was in the handbook on ahkenaten. but you also know i tend to follow most of what is in the official books -- at least i don't dismiss what they say. if marvel believes it was 4321, that's fine by me. and the timeline could EASILY have diverged with the coming of akenaten. up until then the universes could have been exact duplicates. but after that . . .



hmmm . . . you can believe that, that's cool. i also never saw multi-eternity struggling against him OR saw multi-eternity absorbed. seems you're saying the multiverse or a universe can be absorbed or destroyed while SOMETIMES showing the m-body being destroyed, but at other times, it doesn't matter if we see the m-body being destroyed. that seems like picking and choosing to me and choosing whatever outcome best fits your postulation. kinda like saying sometimes the m-body DOES represent the universe/multiverse, sometimes it doesn't. if a postulation is that open-ended, it's rather easy to defend . . .

to me it's easier to say an incomplete m-body was destroyed, followed by the consciousness of the universe. you've seen multiple m-bodies existing at once (lt, eternity and death in particular) as well as hearing qusar's own thoughts on the death of anomaly and its m-body. you saw q ask the m-body of eternity if it knew where the essence of it was. it's even said that the manifesters ARE the m-body not the abstract themselves (though some 'energy transfer' tales place . . .)

frankly, i'm not sure how much more proof I can show.

.

Originally posted by Galan007
There are some good points being brought up as to whether or not a universe was absorbed, or a Multiverse was absorbed...

Do I believe that a Multiverse was absorbed? yes

The reason I believe this, is because once Thanos began comprehending that there was an astral cancer of sorts, he realized that ALL life would be destroyed.

In his own words:

"Once in the throes of nihilistic madness, I had offered the universe to Mistress Death as a love token."

"Now, in horror I realized that even SHE would fall victim to the approaching termination."

"For in the absence of Life, there can be NO DEATH"

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1217/th1kp0.th.jpg

Now, we know that Death exists in every universe in the Multiverse, so surely if all life were to be absent in only ONE universe, she would not be threatened at all...... Hell when Thanos had the IG Death WANTED him to destroy half the population of a universe to even things out a bit.....

So to fix this astral problem, ask yourself what Thanos would have had to absorb and recreate in order to save Death herself from "falling victim to the approaching termination"

A Multiverse perhaps?

i good thought, galen, but it had ALWAYS been 616 death that thanos loved. now you're saying that it was multi-death he was in love with? that's not a leap i'll make, thanks. or at the least he believes he could just as easily love a DIFFERENT aspect of death? not for me, that theory.

if 616 was destroyed, 616 death would be destroyed. other universal death aspects would surive across the multiverse, but why would thanos care? he fell in love with 616 death and wanted to save 616. as seen at the conclusion, death exists outside the bounds of 616 somehow. to say otherwise, and say it was multi-death that appeared at the end, is to say death actually exists outside the MULTIVERSE. easy to say she operates outside a universe, but outside the multiverse?? sorry, bro, even though neither is i suppose conclusively proveable, i'm personally not buying that thought.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But those other instances don't actually contradict that scan. He IS in charge of the multiverse(under TOAA of course). That's true. But very few beings would be concerned with whatever is going on in another multiverse anyway. So unless it's actually stated somewhere that his jurisdiction is actually limited to a single multiverse, then no conflicting evidence exist, and the scan is therefore valid. That scan of LT is unique, because it is a scan of a cosmic level entity who is relearning the structure of Marvel(because much of her former life as the Beyonder was illusionary ). That kind of thing doesn't really happen every day(and to my knowledge, it's the only time it's happened on panel, but I could be wrong about that).

I'd say yes, it's canon, and no, it wasn't a multiversal thing ... Thanos only gained control over a single Universe ... which appeared to be the 616 Marvel U.

Even if it was a different U, every character and event up until that point was identical to the 616 U.

There's no reason to believe it wouldn't be canon.

Originally posted by Scoobless
I'd say yes, it's canon, and no, it wasn't a multiversal thing ... Thanos only gained control over a single Universe ... which appeared to be the 616 Marvel U.

Even if it was a different U, every character and event up until that point was identical to the 616 U.

There's no reason to believe it wouldn't be canon.

do you have a partner yet for the tournament, cuz i'm thinking i might make myself available just for you . . .



and goober -- logically speaking you're right. i don't suppose there is any definitive way to say that multiverses WASN'T intentionally meant (as opposed to an error) and it may turn out some day that your opinion is born out in an actual story, but, dr strange knows . . . a thing or 2 about the multiverse, and watchers as well, and galactus (in fact, mm may still hold the belief that watchers look out over ALL multiverses, but i'm not sure if he still holds that belief) and in EVERY OTHER APPEARANCE, regardless of who he is with (even warlock with the IG) or who is writing said story, he is referred to as the MULTIVERSAL judge. to me the evidence is far too overwhelming. the fact that the IG gems worked in the ultraverse and contradicted his decree also lends support to the idea that his decisions do not extend across the omniverse. i'll take 'action' and an entire storyline, over one example from a back up story that may have been nothing more than an error.

but of course, you're welcome to your opinion. i'm not necessarily trying to change your mind, just telling you why i feel the contrary is true.

Originally posted by leonidas
do you have a partner yet for the tournament, cuz i'm thinking i might make myself available just for you . . .



and goober -- logically speaking you're right. i don't suppose there is any definitive way to say that multiverses WASN'T intentionally meant (as opposed to an error) and it may turn out some day that your opinion is born out in an actual story, but, dr strange knows . . . a thing or 2 about the multiverse, and watchers as well, and galactus (in fact, mm may still hold the belief that watchers look out over ALL multiverses, but i'm not sure if he still holds that belief) and in EVERY OTHER APPEARANCE, regardless of who he is with (even warlock with the IG) or who is writing said story, he is referred to as the MULTIVERSAL judge. to me the evidence is far too overwhelming. the fact that the IG gems worked in the ultraverse and contradicted his decree also lends support to the idea that his decisions do not extend across the omniverse. i'll take 'action' and an entire storyline, over one example from a back up story that may have been nothing more than an error.

but of course, you're welcome to your opinion. i'm not necessarily trying to change your mind, just telling you why i feel the contrary is true.
I know, it could be an error I'll admit, I'm just pointing out that there's no ACTUAL evidence to contradict it. In medieval times, the King of England was normally referred to as such while in England, even if he ruled over France and portions of other countries as well. That didn't change the fact that he ruled over those other places, that was just the people from England's primary area of concern. However, during the education of a noble, I'm sure that the other areas of his influence was covered.

Originally posted by leonidas
i truly cannot grasp how they are 'meaningless'. quasar was almost killed by the m-body that was sent at him because he was interferring where he was not supposed to.

How many M-bodys did we see of the Anomaly, (the M-body that 'almost killed' Quasar)?

Exactly, ONE!


1. Which could have easily been "the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect" of the Anomaly (just like the Comatose Eternity m-body)

2. Which could have easily been the "Aspect that is of RIGHT VINTAGE" (just like the Comatose Eternity m-body)

3. Which could have easily been the Aspect that "Corresponds to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW" (just like the Comatose Eternity m-body)



DO you have PROOF of OTHER M-bodys of the Anomaly that were there?

I think not.


Originally posted by leonidas
time was meaningless in the dimension of m. we saw THREE (not 2) seperate eternities all existing in the dimension at the same time. (one was with the beyonder, one was in a coma and the other was with lt . . .)

The Beyonder with the Eternity M-body was from a DIFFERENT issue, (you have NO idea WHERE or WHEN that is taking place)

and I already PROVED that Warlock's TRIAL took place WAYYYY before Eternity was Comatose by Magus.

SO it is IMPOSSIBLE, for that to be all happening in sequence.


Again, Quasar interrupted a TRIAL that had ALREADY taken place, so if the Writers of Quasar #37 decided to throw that in to give some kind of substance to their "M-body" story, they made a big woo woo ... in other words,

(made a mistake, put their foot in their mouths, saturated the story line beyond belief, information overload, etc, etc...)

because it's a contradiction of CONTINUITY.



Originally posted by leonidas
the comatose m-body was comatose because the ACTUAL spirit was placed in a coma -- obviously the m-body would reflect that.

Now your saying that because I showed you Quasar saying it, but YOUR first reply was this:

"clearly the m-body is an INCOMPLETE eternity as it does NOT house the spiritual essence of eternity"

the REAL eternity does not exist within ANY m-body. that's what i've been saying. the spiritual consciousness does NOT reside within the m-body"



Now your saying the "m-body was comatose because the ACTUAL SPIRIT was placed in a coma"



So show me where On Panel does it SHOWS Magus EVER putting the "the SPIRIT of (the so-called) M-body being placed in a Coma"?


As opposed to what I have in front of me which is simply, Eternity was COMATOSE by Magus! End of story.


"Powerful Eternity Catatonic"
http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/3672/1magusknocksouteternityef4.th.jpg
"Artificially Induced by an OUTSIDE FORCE"



"He's Catatonic....It appears to be Induced by OUTSIDE FORCES"....
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4830/3quasarrealityhopping2ej7.th.jpg


Eagerly awaiting to see this SCAN of "the SPIRIT of (the so-called) M-body being placed in a Coma" by Magus.


Originally posted by leonidas
i still don't think you're clear on what i'm saying about m-bodies: they ARE the 'essence' of the abstract. but they CAN vary.

That wasn't YOUR take before though, yesterday you said:
Originally posted by leonidas
clearly the m-body is an INCOMPLETE eternity as it does NOT house the spiritual essence of eternity.



Originally posted by leonidas
you don't believe strange 'killed' that death m-body that's fine.

And you shouldn't either according to your own scan:
http://img383.imageshack.us/my.php?image=death48gz.jpg



Originally posted by leonidas
i showed you LOADS of other m-bodies of death EXISTING SIDE-BY-SIDE (doesn't get much more simultaneous than that as they were all SEEN at the same instant -- do ALL those m-bodies possess ALL of death's power . . .?)

Yea, that's because:

"Our Dimension contains Reflections of EVERY MANIFESTATION we have EVER DONE"

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7632/et1rn0.th.jpg

A bunch of left over "Reflections" of Deaths.

SO that point is inconsequential.


Originally posted by leonidas
on the first page, you choose not to believe that quasar knows what he's talking about when speaking of anomaly, you say the other m-bodies in the dimension are meaningless (still not sure why when they were able to act independent of the INITIAL surroundings) . . .

1. Who Anomaly, acting independent?

he chased off Quasar from interrupting a moment that has a worse case of RE-RUNS than Happy Days in the Family Channel.


2. Who Infinity?

a painting that didn't MOVE or TALK once.


3. Who the multiple Deaths?

cheapest imitation of a haunted house room if I ever saw one, (again, they did NOTHING)


4. Or the obscure Beyonder involvement, which is my belief was monkey wrenched into the mix just to give the story more substance.


Originally posted by leonidas
have you ever seen the universe ended WITHOUT showing the eternity m-body . . .? because i don't seem to recall seeing the m-body of multi-eternity being absorbed by thanos, or multi-eternity even resisting him. surely if a singular eternity could resist, MULTI could do so even more . . .

Sure, just like Multi-Eternity resisted Abraxas, who wasn't HALF the THREAT Thanos posed.

After LT getting absorbed effortlessly, what the heck was Multi-Eternity going to do?

Just like Multi-Eternity (who was TERRIFIED) summoned Reed for help against Abraxas:


"and where ONE ETERNITY would ensure a BOUNDLESS Universe, a MULTI-ETERNITY would ensure a BOUNDLESS MULTI-VERSE"
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7421/multieternity16do.th.jpg


"What was revealed to me through the Cosmic Entity known as ETERNITY"
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5025/etuh4.th.jpg


"Was a Being like NO OTHER I have EVER encountered, his name is ABRAXAS, and to say HE (MULTI-ETERNITY) had nothing to FEAR in our discovery is an UNDERSTATEMENT"
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/267/a2rq5.th.jpg


So Multi-Eternity KNEW, there was nothing it could do against Thanos.


Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, like i said: i think they ARE the essence of the spiritual being they represent. but the body can be affected while the 'consciousness' remains unaffected. in that way, the body can be killed or destroyed, while the 'essence' remains untouched. if someone is OUTSIDE eternity and wanted to REACH the essence, they would clearly have to go inside the m-body, but the 'essence' can still be acting independent of the body itself. what affects the m-body DOES NOT NECESSARILY AFFECT THE ESSENCE OF THAT ABSTRACT.

Well, if ALL you have is Anomaly getting choked out by Maelstrom as the evidence for that, I must disagree.

There's WAYYYY to many instances where Eternity's M-body is the Universe,

where Eternity's M-body gets erased and the Universe gets erased,

where Eternity's M-body gets replaced and the Universe gets replaced,

even M-bodys becoming the ACTUAL Universe, like in the Entropy case. (since you wanted to discount the What If account) which is an Alternate Universe and Canon, so I don't know why it's unexceptable.


Originally posted by leonidas
in a nutshell, that's basically what i'm trying to say. in your scans where the universe is destroyed, it is clear that the consciousness is ALSO destroyed. the m-body is meaningless -- the consciousness is EVERYTHING. that's why when thanos usurped eternity's position, the m-body remained, inert and useless. because the consciousness of eternity had been thrust aside and replaced.

The M-body is meaningless if it's destroyed or replaced,

until then the M-body is EVERYTHING, just like the CONSCIOUSNESS.



Originally posted by leonidas
but the m-bodies were STILL current and still 'functioning' as though the events were occuring 'now'. quasar's interference angered lt and a NEW event sprung from it. were the event REPLAYED, we likely WOULD see quasar present.

Come on....

your trying to force method on that madness.

What this says is that EVERY event that has ever taken place continuously repeats itself for ALL Eternity, UNTIL Quasar or some other hobo decides to crash land the party to change the event.

That's ridiculous and straight up PIS.

Originally posted by leonidas
how exactly does that scan prove there is only ONE dimension of manifestations?

stands to reason that lt WOULD appear in the 616 dimension of m if that's where he was needed. where else would he manifest . . .?

Ok,

I just posted PROOF, that the Living Tribunal's Realm is the Dimension of Manifestation,

"the DIMENSION of MANIFESTATION ... the REALM of the LIVING TRIBUNAL"
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7527/lkr7.th.jpg
NOT the 616 Dimension of Manifestation, or ANY OTHER Number!


and your response is:


"how exactly does that scan prove there is only ONE dimension of manifestations?"


So SHOW us YOUR PROOF,
of OTHER Dimensions of Manifestation, especially the "616" D of M.


Originally posted by leonidas
again speculation (which is fine . . . i just happen to disagree with that particular speculation) but it is no more factual than my claim that m-bodies can possess different amounts of power within them. my notion has SOME basis in fact as quasar asks:

"How much input does a being have with how they're represented?"

the manifester answers: "It varies. As much as they want." he then shows q an m-body of mistress love drawn from q's mind.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with Scale of Power, NOTHING!


Quasar does ask that question, but Quasar is referring to the FORM, not it's Power.

"Some Entities have very SPECIFIC Requirements, others give us FREER REIGN"
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7412/m2iu8.th.jpg
"Frequently we FORM the MANIFESTATION-BODY to the MENTAL IMAGE of the Beholder"

Originally posted by leonidas
i'll not get back into THAT old debate. you think somehow that the 'barren region' of space magus claimed as his own was outside the 616. i absolutely do not. so to you he was outside the universe. to me he was not. this is not the place to rehash that old classic.

meh, let's let the Onlookers decide:


What did this to Mighty Eternity?...................................Magus with
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2140/4magusknocksouteternityoo8.th.jpg


From where?........many Realities away
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/954/magusmanyrealitiesaway2ai8.th.jpg


Many Realities away...
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2580/magusfaraway4qk.th.jpg


Doom&Kang find Magus's stronghold after what?

Breaking Through to the Desired Reality.
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5843/srealityex5.th.jpg



Thanos tells Magus...

It is what brought me to this "Forsaken Corner of the Plane...To Safeguard the Sanctity of my Own Reality"
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/305/slairrealityawayht0.th.jpg



Warlock here says..

"For The Sake of this Universe....This Fragile Reality (he's referring to the same Universe) once again needed saving"
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4598/8unirealitythesameiw6.th.jpg



Galactus and others traveling...

"In a TIME and PLACE that is Neither"...
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1677/1gfindingmagusva4.th.jpg



Where do they End Up?....

"In a Reality MANY steps removed from Our Own"
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8342/2gfindingmagusem4.th.jpg



Silver Surfer...

"We must Return to Our Reality"
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1842/3gfindingmagusnk2.th.jpg



Here Galactus sends Thor back to our universe
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/7181/magusmanyrealitiesaway3wd6.th.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
what if . . .? anyway, i'll check out the issue, but as a what if, it's not relevent anyway . . .

Since when are What If's irrelevant?

They may be the cornerstone of PIS, but they certainly aren't irrelevent.


Originally posted by leonidas
btw, it looks like the earth was left at the end even after eternity headed out of town. is that what happened? how could it have if that earth was part of eternity?

The Humans became ONE with the Planet Earth, and made a stasis field around it, protecting it from the Universal implosion that took place.

There it satyed, hovering and self sustained by the evolved Humans.


Originally posted by leonidas
they are OUTSIDE eternity/the universe. how ELSE could they envision the universe UNLESS it were an m-body? the universe is boundless, the m-body is defined and physical. the purpose of the m-body is to allow a physical being to see and interact with the abstract. it REPRESENTS the abstract and it's representation can vary. that does not mean that it is the entirety of the abstract. i've tried to explain this a couple times. fine by me if you disagree.

So your ignoring and dismissing the FACT that Entropy exploded into a Universe, and this Universe WAS ETERNITY the M-body?

Are the Fractals that quick,

that they managed to build an M-body without Eternity even visiting the Fractals?

Originally posted by Mr Master
meh, let's let the Onlookers decide:


What did this to Mighty Eternity?...................................Magus with
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/2140/4magusknocksouteternityoo8.th.jpg


From where?........many Realities away
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/954/magusmanyrealitiesaway2ai8.th.jpg


Many Realities away...
http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/2580/magusfaraway4qk.th.jpg


Doom&Kang find Magus's stronghold after what?

Breaking Through to the Desired Reality.
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/5843/srealityex5.th.jpg



Thanos tells Magus...

It is what brought me to this "Forsaken Corner of the Plane...To Safeguard the Sanctity of my Own Reality"
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/305/slairrealityawayht0.th.jpg



Warlock here says..

"For The Sake of this Universe....This Fragile Reality (he's referring to the same Universe) once again needed saving"
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/4598/8unirealitythesameiw6.th.jpg



Galactus and others traveling...

"In a TIME and PLACE that is Neither"...
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1677/1gfindingmagusva4.th.jpg



Where do they End Up?....

"In a Reality MANY steps removed from Our Own"
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8342/2gfindingmagusem4.th.jpg



Silver Surfer...

"We must Return to Our Reality"
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1842/3gfindingmagusnk2.th.jpg



Here Galactus sends Thor back to our universe
http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/7181/magusmanyrealitiesaway3wd6.th.jpg Wait, when did the HOTU being canon, have to do with the IG?

Originally posted by leonidas
i suspect you know it was in the handbook on ahkenaten. but you also know i tend to follow most of what is in the official books -- at least i don't dismiss what they say. if marvel believes it was 4321, that's fine by me.

You know how I feel about this,

if it DIDN'T happen On Panel,

then it DIDN'T HAPPEN AT ALL.



Originally posted by leonidas
and the timeline could EASILY have diverged with the coming of akenaten. up until then the universes could have been exact duplicates.

First time I here of exact duplicate Universes, sharing the exact same Histories.

If this is isn't backed up by On Panel evidnce, it shouldn't even be mentoned, lest it confuses any further already confused individuals.



Originally posted by leonidas
i also never saw multi-eternity struggling against him

I never saw Multi-Eternity struggle against Abraxas, although Abraxas was collapsing his ass.


Originally posted by leonidas
OR saw multi-eternity absorbed.

Yet, you've shown no proof of just a Universe being absorbed either.

But we ALL SAW Eternity/Infinity (a Universe) being absorbed before the rest of Space went down too:

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/4876/teb9kg7.th.jpg



Originally posted by leonidas
seems you're saying the multiverse or a universe can be absorbed or destroyed while SOMETIMES showing the m-body being destroyed, but at other times, it doesn't matter if we see the m-body being destroyed. that seems like picking and choosing to me and choosing whatever outcome best fits your postulation. kinda like saying sometimes the m-body DOES represent the universe/multiverse, sometimes it doesn't. if a postulation is that open-ended, it's rather easy to defend . . .

Only seems like I'm picking and choosing cause your thinking for me.


Eternity and Infinity, the UNIVERSE were absorbed, then Thanos transitioned his absorption to the Multi-verse in one seamless flow.

There was NEVER a chance for a Multi-versal M-body to appear.


Originally posted by leonidas
to me it's easier to say an incomplete m-body was destroyed, followed by the consciousness of the universe.

Unfortunately you have absolutely NO proof, that there is such a thing as "Incomplete M-bodys"


What we DO have PROOF of, is that Eternity's M-body IS indeed the CONSCIOUSNESS/SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE:


"Since there's nothing to be done for this zoned-out MANIFESTATION of Eternity"

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6615/et1oj2.th.jpg

"Avengers are about to launch an assault on the Cosmic Muckamuck they figure DID THIS to the TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE HERE"


Originally posted by leonidas
you've seen multiple m-bodies existing at once (lt, eternity and death in particular)

The Living Tribunal EXISTS SIMULTANEOUSLY in ALL Multiverses:

http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2994/lt2cm.th.jpg

SO you can continue to claim WITHOUT a shred of Evidence that LT has M-bodys, but your not convincing anyone until you bring up an issue where that is stated.



ONLY TWO M-bodys of Eternity were shown in Quasar#37, ("simultaneously"


one was from the PAST, of a Warlock's TRIAL from Warlock & the Infinity Watch #1, which took place in February of 92'..


and one of the PRESENT, of Eternity Comatose, which took place in accordance with Quasar #37, in June of 92'.

But why you continue to struggle to mesh the two is beyond me.



The Eternity M-body with the Beyonder is from a separate issue, so it's inconsequential, and we still don't even know from WHAT Comic that is taking place, if from any at all.



Originally posted by leonidas
as well as hearing qusar's own thoughts on the death of anomaly and its m-body.

You mean his SPECULATION.


Originally posted by leonidas
you saw q ask the m-body of eternity if it knew where the essence of it was.

I also saw him FIND that "M-body of Eternity where the essence of it was":


"Since there's nothing to be done for this zoned-out MANIFESTATION of Eternity"

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6615/et1oj2.th.jpg

"Avengers are about to launch an assault on the Cosmic Muckamuck they figure DID THIS to the TEMPORAL SPIRIT of the UNIVERSE HERE"


It's an M-BODY, like I been saying from the very start.


Originally posted by leonidas
it's even said that the manifesters ARE the m-body not the abstract themselves (though some 'energy transfer' tales place . . .)

It NEVER said HOW MUCH Energy is being transfered,


"We have a SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP with the Abstract Beings, an EXCHANGE of ENERGIES that you physicals would not comprehend"

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/4529/et2aa6.th.jpg

SO how you figure "some"?

Why not ALL?

Originally posted by leonidas
frankly, i'm not sure how much more proof I can show.

Besides the Anomaly being choked out by Maelstrom,

I'm still waiting.

Originally posted by bigbran
Wait, when did the HOTU being canon, have to do with the IG?

Wait, why don't you read our entire debate, so you can know how it ties in.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wait, why don't you read our entire debate, so you can know how it ties in. I seen M-bodies, and stuff, but I still don't see how it equals The End being canon.

Originally posted by Mr Master
How many M-bodys did we see of the Anomaly, (the M-body that 'almost killed' Quasar)?

Exactly, ONE!


1. Which could have easily been "the MOST RECENTLY Manifested Aspect" of the Anomaly (just like the Comatose Eternity m-body)

2. Which could have easily been the "Aspect that is of RIGHT VINTAGE" (just like the Comatose Eternity m-body)

3. Which could have easily been the Aspect that "Corresponds to something that's going on in the UNIVERSE NOW" (just like the Comatose Eternity m-body)



DO you have PROOF of OTHER M-bodys of the Anomaly that were there?

I think not.




The Beyonder with the Eternity M-body was from a DIFFERENT issue, (you have NO idea WHERE or WHEN that is taking place)

again, i don't get what you're saying. that meeting took place during secret wars 2. in the dimension of m all the manifestations are existing at the same time. seriously, i don't get why you don't see it.



i denied this somewhere . . .?



no it's not because time has no meaning where they are.



characters go back in time a lot and change continuity. why couldn't continuity have been changed in this case retroactively? the scene has never been revisited, so we have no way to know for sure.



correct, but i said also said the power of an m-body could vary. if someone is standing outside the universe and wants to talk to eternity, THAT m-body may well encompass the whole universe. i said not all m-bodies are the same. an m-body existing WITHIN the universe cannot (it's IMPOSSIBLE to use your earlier term) for it to encompass the whole universe when it exists WITHIN the universe.



umm, that's exactly what i've been saying all along. you said the m-body encompasses the whole universe -- if it encompasses the whole universe then . . . why wouldn't that include the 'spirit'?



the 'spirit' was bound, as such it could not affect the m-body.



the 'spirit' was bound put struggling. spirit: active attempting to escape magus's binding. m-body: inert. the m-body is meaningless and incomplete. the spirit or essence is key.



the 'spirit' was bound by magus.



my take has never changed. the m-body represents the abstract, but it is an incomplete representation. essentially it IS the concept, but the body is meaningless (depending on what the abstract wills, of course). a destroyed m-body does not necessarily destroy the concept.



when death DOES come back its in a new m-body. strange beat the first, but that win is meaningless of course, because death can instantly recreate a new m-body.




you can continue to believe they are meaningless. your perogative.



he was sent against q because lt noticed quasar. that action, even his words, are independent of the situation we HAD seen in the past. if they were simple reflections, quasar could NOT have interfered. they were not just 'replays' of past events.




she couldn't -- she too was bound along with eternity by magus. she either couldn't manifest an m-body or that infinity q saw was also in a coma. not sure which as it was never really defined.



so none of them were really death? they ALL were.



you keep talking about errors in the story. my explanation easily accounts for all these 'errors'.



eternity and infinity resisted almost as long as lt did. lt should have lasted a lot longer. my explanation: the lt m-body was more powerful than eternity but not by all that much. multi-eternity would be a great deal more powerful and seemingly should have/could have resisted. abraxas was like multi's kryptonite, its drax. even singlular eternity resisted thanos.



no worries. malestrom DID assume its role though and commited the m-body to oblivion.



again, your perogative.



i'm just trying to explain what i've seen. you asked about it, now that i've answered your query you are calling pis. lt and eternity are said to exist in all times and places. perhap this is how they do so. i don't mean to torture you, but it really does make sense to me.

Originally posted by bigbran
I seen M-bodies, and stuff, but I still don't see how it equals The End being canon.

Real debates emcompass many realms in order to reach a complete understanding.

Leon is an expert debater, and I won't tute my own horn but I know I put effort into the reasoning of my arguments with as much proof as possible.

This leads to a discussion that broadens as the posts flow on.


Simply put,

in order for us to reach the center of opportunity in definiteness, we have to first pass through the circumference of time.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Ok,

I just posted PROOF, that the Living Tribunal's Realm is the Dimension of Manifestation,

"the DIMENSION of MANIFESTATION ... the REALM of the LIVING TRIBUNAL"

if the lt exists in every universe at the same time, why wouldn't there be a d of m in each universe? how do you come to the conclusion that just because it is said to be lt's realm that it is the only one in the . . . multiverse? omniverse? lt can only have one realm? seems like one realm for THIS universe's manifestation of lt explains things nicely.



how do you know it has nothing to do with scale of power? the form can vary. why would that be limited to simply shape?

meh, i sense circles growing . . .

Originally posted by Mr Master
Since when are What If's irrelevant?

They may be the cornerstone of PIS, but they certainly aren't irrelevent.

to debates? they have ALWAYS been irrelevent because the portrayal of characters are . . . not very good. unless you really DO think lt's supreme judgement is a supernova . . .?



they essentially created their own universe and seperated from eternity. okay.



dismissing? how am i dismissing?



maybe . . . or i could call pis . . . of course their WAS the explosion. could have happened during that time i suppose. that's REALLY forcing order on events that are not MEANT to be ordered. the real reason is of course the writers wanted to SHOW the universe was made. showing an m-body of the universe is a lot cooler than showing them in front of a space-scape. fact remains, it was an m-body, and they come from the d of m.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You know how I feel about this,

if it DIDN'T happen On Panel,

then it DIDN'T HAPPEN AT ALL.

no problem.



exact duplicates happen all the time. that's what every what if book is. a duplicate of 616 that becomes its own universe when an event is changed. 4321 would have been an exact duplicate of 616 (would in fact have BEEN 616) until it diverged and became its own universe. until the divergence, the histories and everything were exactly the same.



he couldn't have battled abraxas -- not because of a power issue but because of what ab was.



the reasons for this scene are the heart of the debate. you say there were still stars because he absorbed so fast no void could have existed and he wiped out the multiverse. i say he absorbed m-bodies and continued to absorb beyond the m-body to the universe itself. technically, you've shown no proof that a multiverse was absorbed. your opinion goes against all off-panel explanations by writers and handbooks and even makes atleza the anchor of the multiverse. my explanation fits in quite nicely with all those things.



starlin could have made the event crystal clear had he showed multi being absorbed. you're speculating again. and again, that's fine. just that you haven't really proven anything any more than i have. your thoughts fit your pre-conceived ideas, mine fit with what has been accepted and put out by marvel (though i concede what they put out is not always correct).



you were very quick to call out errors and pis in some of the scans and things i showed but when overwhelming evidence points to this being an error you stick with it? or perhaps it IS correct, and kubick is simply referencing each singular eternity as a multiverse, which is a claim i've stated before. in THAT case, the statement makes absolutely PERFECT sense. and if he exists in all universes simultaneously, how does he manifest in each? contemplator says the being REPRESENTS lt -- not IS lt. if every lt is ALL of lt, did ALL lt's across the multiverse get scattered across dimensions by reed? of course not because each lt (while still part of the whole) is a seperate and distinct manifestation. truely -- it makes so much sense to me. how else do you explain it? you can't. you can just say -- that's what it says. i like my explanation better even if NO ONE sees it that way.



i told you the third was in 38, found by contemplator just after quasar left. 3 in all.



why you say 2 eternities can both exist yet both be complete eternities is also beyond me.



isn't that the scene where they are pleading that death not be eliminated?



i said it could be all . . . just not that it NEEDS to be, or has to be and that an m-body can be destroyed/killed without it 'killing' the concept that it represents.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wait, why don't you read our entire debate, so you can know how it ties in.



anywho, please don't go point for point, mm. this will NEVER END!!

my contention is a simple one: an m-body represents the abstract, but it NOT the complete abstract. if an m-body is destroyed, the abstract need not be destroyed (it could be IF the abstract wills ALL of itself into the body, i suppose). eternity seen from OUTSIDE itself could logically have an m-body that encompasses all of it if it chose. why is this important? because then that allows for tha fact that thanos could have absorbed m-bodies of lt, eternity and infinity rather than all their essence, leaving the remainder of the universe behind which thanos than absorbed.

basically that's let atleza anchor the 616 (as she has been said to) as opposed to the multiverse, it explains all the terminology that was used in the story (universe was used repeatedly, not multiverse, by charatcers WELL versed in things cosmic . . .) and prevents any real speculation about the events because it fits with the story and the explanations put forth by marvel AND (perhaps more imortantly) the writer of the story.

for those reasons, i believe it was the universe that was absorbed. everyone else is free to believe whatever they wish. occams razor for me -- the simplest explanation is the best.

i'm pretty much done, mm. a fine debate as usual and civil til the end!! yay for us!

Originally posted by Mr Master
Real debates emcompass many realms in order to reach a complete understanding.

Leon is an expert debater, and I won't tute my own horn but I know I put effort into the reasoning of my arguments with as much proof as possible.

This leads to a discussion that broadens as the posts flow on.


Simply put,

in order for us to reach the center of opportunity in definiteness, we have to first pass through the circumference of time.

thanks, mm! not to sound like a mutual admiration society, but you're pretty good yourself. not many times lately have a felt the need to delve into books for proof and assistance. i used to all the time when i was new.

you brought it outta me again. well done.
cheers

Originally posted by leonidas
again, i don't get what you're saying. that meeting took place during secret wars 2. in the dimension of m all the manifestations are existing at the same time. seriously, i don't get why you don't see it.

Holy PIS, Secret Wars 2?

So again, the event with the Beyonder and the Trial of Warlock is still playing over and over?

No matter the logic, PIS, or just plain stupid.


One thing is to go back in time,

but because History is just repeating itself, those are simultaneous events taking place between Comatose Eternity and the others?

nah ... that's a cop-out, due to PIS.


It's not your fault, it's the complete PIS of the story attempting to jam down our throats this concept of M-bodys.


AND even more hilarious about this whole scene is that when Cosmic came to the Beyonder they WEREN'T even in the Dimension of Manifestation,

they WERE in a RESTAURANT!

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/2361/b1xe9.th.jpg

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/483/b2fz5.th.jpg

There're still CHAIRS and TABLES there

HOW the heck did this turn into a Dimesion of manifestation moment?


Oh silly PIS Writers.


Originally posted by leonidas
i denied this somewhere . . .?

You kept saying they were simultaneous events,

and I disagree.


Originally posted by leonidas
no it's not because time has no meaning where they are.

That's nice, it's still rediculous that Beyonder is still in that meeting with the Cosmics in Secret Wars 2,

just thinking about that makes me laugh, you have to be throwing a chuckle too.


Originally posted by leonidas
characters go back in time a lot and change continuity. why couldn't continuity have been changed in this case retroactively? the scene has never been revisited, so we have no way to know for sure.

That Quasar issue was interesting at first, now it's silly.


Originally posted by leonidas
correct, but i said also said the power of an m-body could vary.

No proof of that.


Originally posted by leonidas
if someone is standing outside the universe and wants to talk to eternity, THAT m-body may well encompass the whole universe.

I agree.


Originally posted by leonidas
i said not all m-bodies are the same. an m-body existing WITHIN the universe cannot (it's IMPOSSIBLE to use your earlier term) for it to encompass the whole universe when it exists WITHIN the universe.

Proof, or else it's speculation.


Originally posted by leonidas
umm, that's exactly what i've been saying all along. you said the m-body encompasses the whole universe -- if it encompasses the whole universe then . . . why wouldn't that include the 'spirit'?

the REAL eternity does not exist within ANY m-body. that's what i've been saying. the spiritual consciousness does NOT reside within the m-body"

Actually, I was quoting you, you took that as though I was saying it.


That's correct, I still say based On Panel evidence that M-body encompasses the whole Universe, and the Spirit.


Originally posted by leonidas
the 'spirit' was bound, as such it could not affect the m-body.

I asked for proof,

your personal opinion isn't proof.


Show On Panel Magus doing this.


I already posted what magus did On Panel to Eternity, it had nothing to do with Spirituality.

Magus Comatose Eternity, end of story On Panel, if you can prove otherwise, please do.

Originally posted by leonidas
the 'spirit' was bound put struggling. spirit: active attempting to escape magus's binding. m-body: inert. the m-body is meaningless and incomplete. the spirit or essence is key.

Again,

this isn't the proof I requested.


Originally posted by leonidas
the 'spirit' was bound by magus.

I'll just repeat what I requested:

Eagerly awaiting to see this SCAN of "the SPIRIT of (the so-called) M-body being placed in a Coma" by Magus.



Originally posted by leonidas
my take has never changed. the m-body represents the abstract, but it is an incomplete representation. essentially it IS the concept, but the body is meaningless (depending on what the abstract wills, of course). a destroyed m-body does not necessarily destroy the concept.

Again,

Where's the proof, that M-bodys are "Incomplete representations"?

That's what I requested.


I can assure you, you won't find it in Quasar #37 or #38.

Originally posted by leonidas
when death DOES come back its in a new m-body. strange beat the first, but that win is meaningless of course, because death can instantly recreate a new m-body.

Just cause Strange seemingly knocked out Death, doesn't mean he killed/destroyed or anything remotely close to that.


Originally posted by leonidas
you can continue to believe they are meaningless. your perogative.

According to the Fractals, they're just "Reflections" of PAST Death M-bodys.

"Our Dimension contains Reflections of EVERY MANIFESTATION we have EVER DONE"

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7632/et1rn0.th.jpg

A bunch of left over "Reflections" of Deaths.

Not my prerogative, that's what this silly issue leads one to believe.


Originally posted by leonidas
he was sent against q because lt noticed quasar. that action, even his words, are independent of the situation we HAD seen in the past. if they were simple reflections, quasar could NOT have interfered. they were not just 'replays' of past events.

I'm sorry,

but this is silly at this point. (not you, the issue)



Originally posted by leonidas
she couldn't -- she too was bound along with eternity by magus. she either couldn't manifest an m-body or that infinity q saw was also in a coma. not sure which as it was never really defined.

Correct, it was not defined, and she sure did NOT look Comatose like Eternity

In FACT, all Quasar said was:

"she's IGNORING me, GUESS THIS ISN'T the M-BODY I MET"
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3320/ivl6.th.jpg

We can only take Quasar's word when he comments about the Anomaly, but what about here?


What is even MORE interesting is,

if ALL these M-BODYS are from the SAME UNIVERSAL ENTITIES as you said, WHY would he say, "GUESS THIS ISN'T the M-BODY I MET"

AND

"What'd I expect, She of ALL people must have an INFINITE Number of M-BODIES"


Quasar just STRENGTHENED my theory that in FACT the MULTIPLE Reflections are from OTHER UNIVERSES, if not meaningless.


Originally posted by leonidas
so none of them were really death? they ALL were.

Now because of Quasar's moment with Infinity,

I confidently believe they are Deaths of OTHER Universes.


Originally posted by leonidas
you keep talking about errors in the story. my explanation easily accounts for all these 'errors'.

I just couldn't dare grasp that they were actually including Secret Wars 2 Beyonder.


That's hilarious.

Originally posted by leonidas
eternity and infinity resisted almost as long as lt did. lt should have lasted a lot longer. my explanation: the lt m-body was more powerful than eternity but not by all that much.

Where is this stated On Panel?


Originally posted by leonidas
multi-eternity would be a great deal more powerful and seemingly should have/could have resisted.

Speculating.


Originally posted by leonidas
abraxas was like multi's kryptonite, its drax.

Then Thanos would have been his Kryptonite, Red Sun and Magic Combined.


Originally posted by leonidas
even singlular eternity resisted thanos.

You mean Eternity ATTEMPTED to resist Thanos, then got curbstomped effortlessly.

Originally posted by leonidas
no worries. malestrom DID assume its role though and commited the m-body to oblivion.

If that were so, the Anomaly would have been erased from existence,

as that's what happens within Oblivion, your Nullified from Reality.


Originally posted by leonidas
again, your perogative.

"My prerogative"?


Gamora enters Eternity, (the "M-body" and ends up inside the Infinite Universe he is.
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7292/gug7.th.jpg


Again:

Thanos became the Universe, by taking Eternity's (the "M-body" place
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4971/godhoodyn7.th.jpg



Again:

When Korvac erased this Universe, it was Eternity (the "M-body" that was erased
http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/5489/kpz4.th.jpg



Again:

When Insane Genis destroyed the Universe, it was Eternity (the M-body) he crushed
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6966/exx6.th.jpg

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/6002/ckf3.th.jpg



Again:

When Reed Erased and Created a New Multi-verse, again, it's Eternity/Infinity (the M-body) that's Erased and Created anew

http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/932/2undestroysmultieternityinfini.th.jpg



Again:


The UNIVERSE materializing into ETERNITY before Galactus
http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/6861/e3bv8.th.jpg

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/8181/e4cu7.th.jpg



Again:


The UNIVERSE materializing Into ETERNITY before Strange

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6990/e1ro8.th.jpg

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9391/e2gp4.th.jpg



You mean Marvel's prerogative.


Originally posted by leonidas
i'm just trying to explain what i've seen. you asked about it, now that i've answered your query you are calling pis.

I've seen it too though, and I've answered your query,

and yes, it lands on PIS after reviewing all the facts.


Now that's my prerogative.


Originally posted by leonidas
lt and eternity are said to exist in all times and places. perhap this is how they do so.

Perhaps.


PIS arc though.


Originally posted by leonidas
i don't mean to torture you, but it really does make sense to me.

This is fun,

and the only sense I'm getting is a sense of PIS.

I'll continue tomorrow, I need sleep now.

okey-dokey. a couple things i know you wanted to see. the first 3 deal with the binding and freeing of eternity's consciousness. it still struggled against its bonds and would have broken free on its own, but galactus didn't want to wait. when it's released, infinity is ALSO released.

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/9981/coma1tf3.th.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2228/coma2ia1.th.jpg

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/849/coma3qy0.th.jpg

the next ones deal with an issue i KNOW you'll bring up: the singular eternity being referenced as a 'multiverse'. we've been over this before, but you know i think calling singular eternity a multiverse is completely valid as eternity 616 is made of countless dimensions/relaities/planes/universes. you also know that i think the best proof for this is the defenders ltd series where eternity tells dormammu they have met before, indicating this is the SAME eternity he fought in the past and NOT multi-eternity as you claim it is. i think the term multiverse as it was used in that series refers strictly to 616's eternity and NOT the multi-eternity.

here are a couple interesting NEW scans (and nothing like the silliness of that defenders series) which back it up further.

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/2659/universes1gk6.th.jpg

http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/8158/universes2ya2.th.jpg

"A hand which holds whole UNIVERSES." he even references strange's universe (the 616) as a dimension.

viewed from this perspective, that lt scan makes perfect sense, no error needed to explain it. each singular eternity IS a multiverse, all combined make multi-eternity. in the book eternity also references a past meeting with strange and reminds strange that the ancient one was the first mortal to ever see him. are we to ascribe every meeting with eternity retroactively as a meeting with MULTI-eternity . . .? no, i don't think so. strange was before 616 eternity. ancient one was before 616 eternity, and in the defenders, dormammu was before 616 eternity.

anyway, i actually like this explanation BETTER than calling error or pis in your lt scan.

what do you think goober?

ps-a thought just occurred to me, mm. you say warlock met multi-eternity, and the most convincing piece of evidence you site is the fact that they existed in myriad fashions. the d of m explains away THAT little quote quite nicely, as well and further strengthens the notion that it was NOT multi-eternity warlock stood before (a fact that cannot be explained by any on-panel evidence in that book, anyway, but which actually DOES say he was searching out simply eternity). no speculation needed, no bringing in of other books not relevent to the book that is in question.

i think this has all come together rather nicely.

somehow.

Wow Leo, that's actually a very interesting theory, and I can't really come up with anything wrong with it off the top of my head. Let me give it some thought and get back to you about it.

But check out what I realized not very long ago. Ok now you say that the whole Ultra-verse thing is one indication of LT's restricted power right? OK, now I normally HATE calling PIS on cosmics, because it's to easy to abuse that in an effort to structure the cosmic hierarchy to your liking. HOWEVER there's not really much choice in this instance. And here's the explanation for it. Now, in the Infinity War #6 when Eternity reinstates the restriction on the gems he says "Let it be known that the power the Living Tribunal REPRESENTS will never allow the gems to be used in unison". Now to me, it sounds like Eternity is actually talking about TOAA, because he's the power over LT. So if the gems worked together in the Ultra-verse, that would mean that it went against HIS ruling. So the only thing that really makes sense, its to write the thing off as bad writing, and the single biggest instance of PIS in comics( it'd actually be the biggest also, because it happened on TOAA).

So what do you think?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wow Leo, that's actually a very interesting theory, and I can't really come up with anything wrong with it off the top of my head. Let me give it some thought and get back to you about it.

But check out what I realized not very long ago. Ok now you say that the whole Ultra-verse thing is one indication of LT's restricted power right? OK, now I normally HATE calling PIS on cosmics, because it's to easy to abuse that in an effort to structure the cosmic hierarchy to your liking. HOWEVER there's not really much choice in this instance. And here's the explanation for it. Now, in the Infinity War #6 when Eternity reinstates the restriction on the gems he says "Let it be known that the power the Living Tribunal REPRESENTS will never allow the gems to be used in unison". Now to me, it sounds like Eternity is actually talking about TOAA, because he's the power over LT. So if the gems worked together in the Ultra-verse, that would mean that it went against HIS ruling. So the only thing that really makes sense, its to write the thing off as bad writing, and the single biggest instance of PIS in comics( it'd actually be the biggest also, because it happened on TOAA).

So what do you think?

could be PIS. i like how you prefaced your stance about hating PIS first. i hate it to for EXACTLY the reason you mentioned. the only other way around it is to speculate that lt's ruling called only for the inability to use the gems in THIS multiverse. i hate guessing at something like that, but i suppose it COULD be viewed retroactively to mean that . . . of course there is no evidence to support it.

even allowing for that to be pis, the multiversal view of a singular eternity works pretty well -- and doesn't call for there to have been an error in the printing, or a typo, etc . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
if the lt exists in every universe at the same time, why wouldn't there be a d of m in each universe?

Because the On Panel Evidence clearly states that the Dimension of Manifestation is the Living Tribunal's REALM:

"The DIMENSION of MANIFESTATIONS ... The REALM of the LIVING TRIBUNAL"
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1103/et3cf7.th.jpg

Do you have PROOF that contradicts this?

Do you have PROOF that there are MORE than ONE Dimension of Manifestation?


Saying, "Why wouldn't there be"

Is baseless SPECULATION.


Originally posted by leonidas
how do you come to the conclusion that just because it is said to be lt's realm that it is the only one in the . . . multiverse? omniverse? lt can only have one realm?

With in the ONE and ONLY Dimension of Manifestations, ALL the M-bodys of the Multi-verse/Omni-verse appear.


Which is WHY Quasar could NOT locate the M-body of Infinity that knows him:

When Gamora finds that Infinity was trapped Inside the Consciouness/Spirit of Eternity she says,

"With Eternity, that's INFINITY! ... "That's WHY Quasar COULDN'T LOCATE Her"
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/483/et1sc6.th.jpg

"COULDN'T LOCATE Her?"


But he DID LOCATE INFINITY:

In FACT, what Quasar said was:

"she's IGNORING me, GUESS THIS ISN'T the M-BODY I MET"
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3320/ivl6.th.jpg
"What'd I expect, She of ALL people must have an INFINITE Number of M-BODIES"


SO what does this mean?

That THIS is a DIFFERENT Infinity, in FACT the MULTIPLE Reflections in the Dimension of Manifestations are from OTHER UNIVERSES! (That's what this proves)


Originally posted by leonidas
seems like one realm for THIS universe's manifestation of lt explains things nicely.

Of course it sounds nicely to YOU,

it's YOUR opinion on the matter, your not going to say what your OPINION (WITHOUT PROOF) sounds illogical.


Originally posted by leonidas
how do you know it has nothing to do with scale of power? the form can vary. why would that be limited to simply shape?

Your SPECULATING again.


"Some Entities have very SPECIFIC Requirements, others give us FREER REIGN"
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7412/m2iu8.th.jpg
"Frequently we FORM the MANIFESTATION-BODY to the MENTAL IMAGE of the Beholder"


You can't go around ADDING theories and speculation to what was said On Panel to solidify what your postulating.


The Fractals claim to have some freedom in the Form of the M-body, and NOTHING else.


Originally posted by leonidas
meh, i sense circles growing . . .

I been seeing them.

Originally posted by leonidas
to debates? they have ALWAYS been irrelevent because the portrayal of characters are . . . not very good. unless you really DO think lt's supreme judgement is a supernova . . .?

Actually in 1982, when that Korvac issue was published, LT's Supreme Judgement was a Super Nova.

So, I don't know where your going.


Originally posted by leonidas
they essentially created their own universe and seperated from eternity. okay.

Wrong,

I never said that, please, just ask me but don't add words to my post.

The Humans made a shield around the Earth which they sustained with their power, and there it stayed in stasis with in a collapsed Universe, awaiting the next ETERNITY to come by and recycle the collapse into a New Universe.


Originally posted by leonidas
dismissing? how am i dismissing?

By posting this AFTER I showed you the M-BODY of Entropy exploding into a UNIVERSE:
Originally posted by leonidas
the purpose of the m-body is to allow a physical being to see and interact with the abstract. it REPRESENTS the abstract and it's representation can vary. that does not mean that it is the entirety of the abstract

If the M-BODY of Entropy (the Abstract) BECOMING a FULL BLOWN UNIVERSE is not the "entirety" of the Concept/Abstract.

Whatever.


Originally posted by leonidas
maybe . . . or i could call pis . . .

Why?

Cause it doesn't adhere to your ONE issue of Quasar?


Originally posted by leonidas
of course their WAS the explosion. could have happened during that time i suppose. that's REALLY forcing order on events that are not MEANT to be ordered.

I would have let you known, so it's good that you acknowledged your stretch.


Originally posted by leonidas
the real reason is of course the writers wanted to SHOW the universe was made. showing an m-body of the universe is a lot cooler than showing them in front of a space-scape.

Your SPECULATING again.

Where is this stated about the WRITERS of Captain Marvel that you have deemed "the Real Reason"?


Originally posted by leonidas
fact remains, it was an m-body, and they come from the d of m.

The ONLY Facts is that the M-body IS the WHOLE UNIVERSE!


ENTROPY'S M-BODY becomes ETERNITY the ENTIRE UNIVERSE
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/1919/2gm2.th.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8969/3ux7.th.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/757/4yt3.th.jpg


ETERNITY is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8126/5me1.th.jpg

ETERNITY is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4766/6bm5.th.jpg


ENTROPY becomes his Father, ETERNITY is the ENTIRE UNIVERSE!
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/4291/eeg3.th.jpg


All the tap dancing in the World will NEVER change the On Panel EVIDENCE.

Originally posted by leonidas
exact duplicates happen all the time. that's what every what if book is. a duplicate of 616 that becomes its own universe when an event is changed. 4321 would have been an exact duplicate of 616 (would in fact have BEEN 616) until it diverged and became its own universe. until the divergence, the histories and everything were exactly the same.

Nice story.

Show me ONE What If book where the History of a Universe is exactly the same as 616.


The End series was dealing with 616 because of the obvious:


Thanos reminiscing about his time with the Cosmic Cube

Thanos reminiscing about his time with the Infinity Gauntlet

Thanos reminiscing about his time when he died and became Death's servant

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/6913/t2cm7.th.jpg

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7412/tzv7.th.jpg



Originally posted by leonidas
he couldn't have battled abraxas -- not because of a power issue but because of what ab was.

Speculation.



Originally posted by leonidas
the reasons for this scene are the heart of the debate. you say there were still stars because he absorbed so fast no void could have existed and he wiped out the multiverse. i say he absorbed m-bodies and continued to absorb beyond the m-body to the universe itself. technically, you've shown no proof that a multiverse was absorbed.

Actually, technically I'm the only one showing proof that it was a Multi-verse, and technically you've shown absolutely NO proof to contradict it.

Except to say your idea just "sounds nicely" or a bio says it.


Bios that say Reed only remade the Universe during the Abraxas Arc, bios that say Phoenix was involved in Galactus's origin, bios that say the END 616 Universe was 4321 instead.

Originally posted by leonidas
your opinion goes against all off-panel explanations by writers and handbooks and even makes atleza the anchor of the multiverse. my explanation fits in quite nicely with all those things.

There we go, "it fits nicely" what I tell ya.

Off Panel explanations by Writers and Handbooks go against the ON PANEL Depictions.

Starlin calls the Marvel Reality, the Marvel Universe, and any other Writer's comments are inconsequential to me.


Originally posted by leonidas
starlin could have made the event crystal clear had he showed multi being absorbed. you're speculating again. and again, that's fine. just that you haven't really proven anything any more than i have. your thoughts fit your pre-conceived ideas, mine fit with what has been accepted and put out by marvel (though i concede what they put out is not always correct).

I've called you on numerous speculations, again, again, and again, so that's a funny accusation.

Many others after reading the appropriate scans have agreed, so I'm not alone in my "pre-conceived ideas"

And I already made a comprehensive suggestion of WHY the M-body of Multi was not shown getting absorbed.


Originally posted by leonidas
you were very quick to call out errors and pis in some of the scans and things i showed but when overwhelming evidence points to this being an error you stick with it?

It makes more than perfect sense that the second to TOAA has Omniversal jurisdiction, when characters that are insects to the Living Tribunal have power on an Omniversal scale.


Originally posted by leonidas
or perhaps it IS correct,

It is correct.

The Living Tribunal is the Judge of ALL the Multi-verses.

Originally posted by leonidas
and kubick is simply referencing each singular eternity as a multiverse, which is a claim i've stated before.

I know you claimed that before, and it's still nothing more than speculation, until you can back it up with proof.


Originally posted by leonidas
in THAT case, the statement makes absolutely PERFECT sense. and if he exists in all universes simultaneously, how does he manifest in each?
contemplator says the being REPRESENTS lt -- not IS lt. if every lt is ALL of lt, did ALL lt's across the multiverse get scattered across dimensions by reed? of course not because each lt (while still part of the whole) is a seperate and distinct manifestation. truely -- it makes so much sense to me. how else do you explain it? you can't. you can just say -- that's what it says. i like my explanation better even if NO ONE sees it that way.

And apparently it will continue to make sense to you and you alone.

Your building a summation compiled by theories, speculations and down right defiance of what has been stated On Panel.

It's credibility is weak, because it's ALL stemming from ONE issue, Quasar #37 and disregarding ALL other issues that concern the M-BODY of Eternity or any other M-BODY.

And LT is NOT an M-BODY!!! ... please let us know WHERE you are you getting this information from besides an AMBIGUOUS phrase made by the Contemplator.


And try and remember, if your going to say What If's are irrelevant, DON'T use an arc that was stated to be NON-CANON by Marvel itself to debate.


Originally posted by leonidas
i told you the third was in 38, found by contemplator just after quasar left. 3 in all.

Yea, my response:


So again, the event with the Beyonder and the Trial of Warlock is still playing over and over?

No matter the logic, this is PIS to the umph degree, or just plain stupid.


One thing is to go back in time,

but because History is just repeating itself, those are simultaneous events taking place between Comatose Eternity and the others?

nah ... that's a cop-out, due to PIS.


It's not your fault, it's the complete PIS of the story attempting to jam down our throats this concept of M-bodys, with a scene that took place 22 Years ago May 1984

and yet, you want to believe it's happening simultaneously with the events of Infinity War which took place in June 1992?


AND even more hilarious about this whole scene is that when the Cosmics came to the Beyonder they WEREN'T even in the Dimension of Manifestation,

they WERE in a RESTAURANT!

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/2361/b1xe9.th.jpg

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/483/b2fz5.th.jpg

There're still CHAIRS and TABLES there

HOW the heck did this turn into a Dimesion of Manifestation moment?


Oh silly PIS Writers of Quasar #37 & part of #38

Originally posted by leonidas
why you say 2 eternities can both exist yet both be complete eternities is also beyond me.

I NEVER said that, remember the Law of thoroughness.


YOUR saying they are the SAME Eternity.

I said they are NOT, because they are happening in separate TIME FRAMES.

Also, there are OTHER Manifestations of M-BODYS in the Dimension of M, that are of OTHER Universes, like the Infinity case.



Originally posted by leonidas
isn't that the scene where they are pleading that death not be eliminated?

Apparently, the most ridiculous scenario that issue.


Originally posted by leonidas
i said it could be all . . . just not that it NEEDS to be, or has to be and that an m-body can be destroyed/killed without it 'killing' the concept that it represents.

And this theory is based on Anomaly getting choked out by Maelstrom.

Originally posted by leonidas
anywho, please don't go point for point, mm. this will NEVER END!!

Great Wars take years to win.


Originally posted by leonidas
my contention is a simple one: an m-body represents the abstract, but it NOT the complete abstract.

Unproven speculation.


Originally posted by leonidas
if an m-body is destroyed, the abstract need not be destroyed (it could be IF the abstract wills ALL of itself into the body, i suppose).

Unproven speculation.

Even the scan of Quasar speculating about the Anomaly is left open to interpretation.


Originally posted by leonidas
eternity seen from OUTSIDE itself could logically have an m-body that encompasses all of it if it chose. why is this important? because then that allows for tha fact that thanos could have absorbed m-bodies of lt, eternity and infinity rather than all their essence, leaving the remainder of the universe behind which thanos than absorbed.

Unproven speculation.



Originally posted by leonidas
basically that's let atleza anchor the 616 (as she has been said to) as opposed to the multiverse, it explains all the terminology that was used in the story (universe was used repeatedly, not multiverse, by charatcers WELL versed in things cosmic . . .) and prevents any real speculation about the events because it fits with the story and the explanations put forth by marvel AND (perhaps more imortantly) the writer of the story.

The Writer of the Story NEVER said it was ONLY the 616 Universe that was absorbed by Thanos.

So,

more Unproven speculation.


Originally posted by leonidas
for those reasons, i believe it was the universe that was absorbed.

As you wish.


Originally posted by leonidas
everyone else is free to believe whatever they wish. occams razor for me -- the simplest explanation is the best.

Let freedom reign.

Originally posted by leonidas
okey-dokey. a couple things i know you wanted to see. the first 3 deal with the binding and freeing of eternity's consciousness. it still struggled against its bonds and would have broken free on its own, but galactus didn't want to wait.
http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/9981/coma1tf3.th.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/2228/coma2ia1.th.jpg

There's something your forgetting about those two scans,

HOW did Gamora manage to REACH Eternity's Consciousness hmm?

The Answer:
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7292/gug7.th.jpg

By ENTERING the M-BODY of Eternity.


HOW does Gamora manage to exit the Consciousness of Eternity hmm?

The Answer:
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/2193/et2ej5.th.jpg

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/4199/et5tb5.th.jpg

By EXITING the M-BODY of Eternity.

Even the Consciousness of Eternity & Infinity is represented by M-BODYS.



Originally posted by leonidas
when it's released, infinity is ALSO released.

Exactly, Infinity was ALSO released.

And Gamora ALSO SAYS:

"With Eternity, that's INFINITY! ... "That's WHY Quasar COULDN'T LOCATE Her"
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/483/et1sc6.th.jpg


AND Quasar DID FIND an M-BODY of INFINITY in the Dimension of Manifestations:

"she's IGNORING me, GUESS THIS ISN'T the M-BODY I MET"
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/3320/ivl6.th.jpg
"What'd I expect, She of ALL people must have an INFINITE Number of M-BODIES"


SO obviously, this M-BODY within the Dimension of Manifestation was NOT the INFINITY of the 616 UNIVERSE, but in FACT of ANOTHER UNIVERSE.

This tells us that there is ONLY ONE Dimension of Manifestations (like the LT scan PROVED), and M-BODYS from OTHER Universes appear there simultaneously, explaining the whole multiple Deaths incident.


But the Beyonder/Eternity M-BODY is straight up nonsense still.


Originally posted by leonidas
the next ones deal with an issue i KNOW you'll bring up: the singular eternity being referenced as a 'multiverse'. we've been over this before, but you know i think calling singular eternity a multiverse is completely valid as eternity 616 is made of countless dimensions/relaities/planes/universes.

Uhmm, I don't think that though.

Singular Eternity is made up of Dimensions and Planes, NOT Realities and Universes.

So NO, Singular Eternity is NOT a Multi-verse.


Originally posted by leonidas
you also know that i think the best proof for this is the defenders ltd series where eternity tells dormammu they have met before, indicating this is the SAME eternity he fought in the past and NOT multi-eternity as you claim it is. i think the term multiverse as it was used in that series refers strictly to 616's eternity and NOT the multi-eternity.

Your entitled to an opinion like all others.

But I completely disagree that was a single Universe.

So I stand by my claim.


Originally posted by leonidas
here are a couple interesting NEW scans (and nothing like the silliness of that defenders series) which back it up further.
"A hand which holds whole UNIVERSES." he even references strange's universe (the 616) as a dimension.

That's crap writing,

Whole Universe are ....well ....Whole Universes, (separate Eternitys)

The Dimension reference is senseless as well.

Originally posted by leonidas
viewed from this perspective, that lt scan makes perfect sense, no error needed to explain it. each singular eternity IS a multiverse, all combined make multi-eternity.

I disagree, and your bordering on trying to re-write the Marvel Cosmology that has been established On Panel.


Originally posted by leonidas
in the book eternity also references a past meeting with strange and reminds strange that the ancient one was the first mortal to ever see him. are we to ascribe every meeting with eternity retroactively as a meeting with MULTI-eternity . . .? no, i don't think so. strange was before 616 eternity. ancient one was before 616 eternity, and in the defenders, dormammu was before 616 eternity.

Bad example bringing in Strange Tales #138, Where Eternity tells Strange only the Ancient One has seen him,

did you realize that there was NO MULTI-VERSE then?


So this is inconsequential.


Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, i actually like this explanation BETTER than calling error or pis in your lt scan.

Well, obviously your not going to like mine better.


Originally posted by leonidas
you say warlock met multi-eternity, and the most convincing piece of evidence you site is the fact that they existed in myriad fashions. the d of m explains away THAT little quote quite nicely, as well and further strengthens the notion that it was NOT multi-eternity warlock stood before

Not in the least.

I've proven conclusively that there is ONLY ONE Dimension of Manifestations, and that M-BODYS from OTHER Universes appear there.


So the Multi-Eternity and Warlock meeting still stands.


Originally posted by leonidas
(a fact that cannot be explained by any on-panel evidence in that book, anyway, but which actually DOES say he was searching out simply eternity).

I disagree, completely.


Originally posted by leonidas
no speculation needed, no bringing in of other books not relevent to the book that is in question.

You should of speculated, caused based on the issue, it was the Multi-verse that stood before Warlock.


Originally posted by leonidas
i think this has all come together rather nicely.

Not exactly.

There was a SCAN Typo in my first post:

FIXED:

Originally posted by leonidas
if the lt exists in every universe at the same time, why wouldn't there be a d of m in each universe?

Because the On Panel Evidence clearly states that the Dimension of Manifestation is the Living Tribunal's REALM:

"The DIMENSION of MANIFESTATIONS ... The REALM of the LIVING TRIBUNAL"
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7527/lkr7.th.jpg

Do you have PROOF that contradicts this?

Do you have PROOF that there are MORE than ONE Dimension of Manifestation?


Saying, "Why wouldn't there be"

Is baseless SPECULATION.

Ok, now I don't really know how this fits into everything yet, because I just remembered it earlier when Leo was talking about the internal universes but....

When the Surfer and Reed and Sue traveled through a black hole in search of the missing Elders of the Universe, they ended up within the realm of Order and Chaos. Now there IS mention of it being another universe, but I'm not for sure if it's supposed to exist inside or outside of our "standard" universe. Check it out...

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7150/silversurfer198801513kt9.th.jpg

See, so the realm of Order and Chaos IS a universe(but I'm still not sure where it's supposed to be in relationship to the realm of Death and Eternity). Here's another one, where its called a "Reality"...

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9365/silversurfer198801610iv8.th.jpg

See no the funny thing about that scan, is that it ALSO implies that Order and Chaos are actually EQUAL to Death and Eternity. Now of course, in any instance when Order and Chaos were acting withing the "standard" universe, Eternity and Infinity would have greater power, but whenever they are within their own, they should be as powerful as Eternity and Death are within theirs. (And by the same token, theoretically Eternity and Death should have less power within the realm of Order and Chaos).

Here's my last one, it has the In-Betweener talking to Death about how HIS reality is different than hers...

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7053/silversurfer198801716fe5.th.jpg

Now, what I find completely puzzling, is the fact that the In-Betweener was actually IN CONTROL of Death(he made her kill the Elders, which she swore she wouldn't do before). So that actually indicates that either Order and Chaos are MORE powerful than Death and Eternity, or that they simply GAVE more power to the In-Betweener, than Death and Eternity gave to Galactus.


I know this wasn't really the right place to bring this up, but I just wanted to get you guys opinions(Mr. M and Leo specifically), as to how this relates to everything else. It may have been expanded on or contradicted elsewhere(I'm not overly familiar with Order and Chaos), but from what's been indicated here, I think that Order and Chaos need to be bumped up a bit on our cosmic totem pole.

So what do you guys think?

mm, you've gone through . . . a lot of trouble to say the same thing i've said about a half-dozen times: the m-body of eternity CAN encompass the whole universe if it is viewed from OUTSIDE the universe -- which is where it is most often encountered. of which your entropy issue is but one more example, as is gamora's entry and exit. seriously, i've said it a number of times, so all your scans simply continue to reiterate a point i stated long ago. but people love your scans, so keep 'em coming!

thing is: when have you seen the whole universe destroyed when the m-body of eternity has been WITHIN the universe? never. except for the one time in THE END. and what happens when THAT body is destroyed? there is still a universe left behind. the only way you can explain it is to speculate that thanos absorbed everything so fast that no void was made and that he went on to absorb the MULTIVERSE. a multiverse that is NEVER mentioned in the series. while UNIVERSE is repeatedly mentioned. you are ignoring the terminology and ascribing it the way you want to interpret it. if universe DID mean universe, your theory would utterly fall apart. i see no reason to say universe was NOT exactly what starlin meant. m-body absorbed, then the remainder and consciousness of eternity/infinity.

there is a second example of an eternity m-body falling while WITHIN the universe: when thanos defeats eternity in the IG the m-body remains behind in stasis but THANOS is the universe. how can that be if, as you've said over and over, EVERY M-BODY OF ETERNITY IS THE WHOLE UNIVERSE? if the whole universe is the eternity m-body, just what IS thanos?

my explanation of that event is simple -- thanos started battling the m-body (as we saw), then went beyond the physical plane to face the REAL spiritual eternity. the m-body was meaningless at this point as the REAL universe was now engaged and when thanos usurped the 'consciouness' of the universe, the m-body remained behind utterly useless. but also CLEARLY NOT the ENTIRE universe unless thanos was . . .?

my theory really DOES fit nicely imho (perhaps not in yours, or others, but, alas, i can live with that ) and i don't have to say atleza anchors the entire multiverse -- another postulation that have never been shown on panel. and you know what you say about things not on panel . . .

in support i showed that death was killed by strange (but you say instead he just . . . ko'd her . . . even though when she came back she was in a new m-body . . . malestrom killed anomaly's m-body and sent the m-body to oblivion. it didn't matter because the m-body is meaningless and we saw anomaly attack q later and even say it must have been the m-body in an issue ALL ABOUT m-bodies. but you pooh-poohed THAT as well and said quasar really doesn't know what he's talking about.

you don't believe quasar when he says that malestrom killed anomaly, but you cling to the fact that infinity ignored him and say that because of THAT you have 'conclusively proven there is only one d of m' responsible for supplying the entire OMNIVERSE with m-bodies?



you're terribly quick to ascribe the term multiverse to everything. only problem is: multiverse is almost never mentioned anywhere on panel. but you continue to demand on-panel evidence from me and anyone else. for you to ascribe it as freely as you do, then critcize me for speculating (while i showed just some of the leaps you made above) . . . doesn't sound too great. using only the info provided in the issue, it's a lot easier to say infinity was the current one and rather than ignoring him, was actually comatose like eternity and unable to answer BECAUSE she was bound with him. (speculation is NECESSARY in this case as ithe situation is never defined) but in MY speculations, there is no need to bring in other-universal infinities and entities or the omniverse -- things that are not only never mentioned but that are never even alluded to.

as to the lt scan. in your corner you have:

one single scan that contradicts all others of lt EVER.

in mine: i have what COULD be an error (which i actually dislike saying cuz i hate calling pis for reasons goober mentioned) so instead, i showed a scan that completely in every way supports exactly what i said was shown in the defenders mini series -- that any singular eternity can (because of its make-up) be seen to be a multiverse in and of itself. eternity himself acknowledges dormammu in the defenders series and references a past meeting AND eternity himself ALSO references a past meeting with dr strange and the ancient one. (and that was NOT strange tales . . .)

your reaction: crap writing. why? not because it rewrites at all marvel's cosmology, but rather because it does not fit in with YOUR opinion of what that cosmology should be. there's a big difference, my friend. different writers have the right to interpret things differently.

so, you have one scan that is contradicted in every other scan of lt, and i have 2 scans (plus what is in effect a whole mini-series) that reference singular eternity as a multiverse or collection of universes as well as lt's judgement failing in the ultraverse -- a seperate multiverse.

i am perfectly content to let people choose which interpretation they believe to be accurate.

lastly, as regards lt and the d of m. what is the very PURPOSE of the d of m? to CREATE M-BODIES. yet you see lt multiple times in that dimension and STILL don't think he uses m-bodies? to quoth the master-man: whatever.

i've really nothing more to add. people can read and come to whatever conclusions they like. it has -- as always -- been fun.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Ok, now I don't really know how this fits into everything yet, because I just remembered it earlier when Leo was talking about the internal universes but....

When the Surfer and Reed and Sue traveled through a black hole in search of the missing Elders of the Universe, they ended up within the realm of Order and Chaos. Now there IS mention of it being another universe, but I'm not for sure if it's supposed to exist inside or outside of our "standard" universe. Check it out...

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7150/silversurfer198801513kt9.th.jpg

See, so the realm of Order and Chaos IS a universe(but I'm still not sure where it's supposed to be in relationship to the realm of Death and Eternity). Here's another one, where its called a "Reality"...

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9365/silversurfer198801610iv8.th.jpg

See no the funny thing about that scan, is that it ALSO implies that Order and Chaos are actually EQUAL to Death and Eternity. Now of course, in any instance when Order and Chaos were acting withing the "standard" universe, Eternity and Infinity would have greater power, but whenever they are within their own, they should be as powerful as Eternity and Death are within theirs. (And by the same token, theoretically Eternity and Death should have less power within the realm of Order and Chaos).

Here's my last one, it has the In-Betweener talking to Death about how HIS reality is different than hers...

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/7053/silversurfer198801716fe5.th.jpg

Now, what I find completely puzzling, is the fact that the In-Betweener was actually IN CONTROL of Death(he made her kill the Elders, which she swore she wouldn't do before). So that actually indicates that either Order and Chaos are MORE powerful than Death and Eternity, or that they simply GAVE more power to the In-Betweener, than Death and Eternity gave to Galactus.


I know this wasn't really the right place to bring this up, but I just wanted to get you guys opinions(Mr. M and Leo specifically), as to how this relates to everything else. It may have been expanded on or contradicted elsewhere(I'm not overly familiar with Order and Chaos), but from what's been indicated here, I think that Order and Chaos need to be bumped up a bit on our cosmic totem pole.

So what do you guys think?

order and chaos are concepts that exist within EVERY universe (ie eternity). how could there be order and chaos and their universe be OUTSIDE of eternity . . .?

so yes, i'd say that their universe IS within eternity. the negative zone is also said to be a universe and i don't see how someone could argue IT is outside eternity either . . .

No need to prolong this any further, we've given the audience enough of each side for them to make a conclusion.


You had your last word, this is mine:


"Eternity"

"Once again I AM REALITY"

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5185/unihc9.th.jpg

"In THIS UNIVERSE THAT IS I"


flirt111

excellent.

i forgot though: i neglected one answer to one query. you asked about what ifs. i said they duplicate universes in all ways save that they diverged from ours at certain instances. that doesn't mean ALL 'other' universes are copies of 616, of course. anyway, this idea is born out in many what ifs that recount the history of characters leading up to the moment of divergence, but here's just one quick example:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2347/whatif2hx3.th.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9000/whatif1pp6.th.jpg

"Slight things turn out differently from the reality we know." these slight things are the divergences that then set these other universes apart from ours. up until the divergence, the universes are the same.

in the second: "one such reality diverges on a fateful day . . ."

oh, and one final special one . . . this from the evolutionary war what if you were using earlier . . .

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4343/universefz3.th.jpg

you showed the entity splitting numerous times, but alas, the second panel on the page is pretty interesting: "the earth itself? it still exists, self contained and self existing, IN THE UNIVERSE THE ENTITY LEFT BEHIND"

the entity's departure left the universe "without meaning". so the m-body left and already fashioned a new big bang in a different dimension, but . . . THE UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEFT BEHIND!!! how is THAT possible?? and what 'meaning' was deprived?

THE SPIRITUAL ESSENCE!! the spirit is what is important to the universe. your own story proves that the m-body is meaningless, that it CANNOT encompass the whole universe. the UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEF BEHIND! it DID implode, later, because the SENTIENCE was gone -- NOT BECAUSE THE M-BODY WAS GONE! the m-body can literally LEAVE THE UNIVERSE and STILL leave 'the universe' behind. thanos could easily have absorbed the m-body and what would have been left? the universe.

dude, showed a scans of panels all around that one, but chose not to post THAT panel. that is ALMOST like . . . cheating . . .

ps-i still stand by the idea that what ifs shouldn't be used. i showd it only to show that even in the book of YOUR choosing, my idea is born out. readers can come to their own conclusions.

Originally posted by leonidas
i forgot though: i neglected one answer to one query. you asked about what ifs. i said they duplicate universes in all ways save that they diverged from ours at certain instances. that doesn't mean ALL 'other' universes are copies of 616, of course. anyway, this idea is born out in many what ifs that recount the history of characters leading up to the moment of divergence, but here's just one quick example:

"there are OTHER Universes ... ALTERNATE Universes in which slight things TURN OUT FAR DIFFERENTLY than the REALITY WE KNOW"
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2347/whatif2hx3.th.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9000/whatif1pp6.th.jpg

"Slight things turn out differently from the reality we know." these slight things are the divergences that then set these other universes apart from ours. up until the divergence, the universes are the same.

in the second: "one such reality diverges on a fateful day . . ."

What does this prove though?

That ALTERNATE UNIVERSES are NOT the SAME as 616.

That's what I said.


I asked you to show me PROOF of a Universe that is an EXACT duplicate of 616.

And you present me with Info I already know about in What Ifs. dontgetit


"divergence" or call it what you want,

the bottom line is there is NO EXACT duplicate of 616 where Thanos could have experienced the EXACT same events of 616.


So I win.

Originally posted by leonidas
oh, and one final special one . . . this from the evolutionary war what if you were using earlier . . .

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4343/universefz3.th.jpg

you showed the entity splitting numerous times, but alas, the second panel on the page is pretty interesting: "the earth itself? it still exists, self contained and self existing, IN THE UNIVERSE THE ENTITY LEFT BEHIND"

the entity's departure left the universe "without meaning". so the m-body left and already fashioned a new big bang in a different dimension, but . . . THE UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEFT BEHIND!!! how is THAT possible?? and what 'meaning' was deprived?

THE SPIRITUAL ESSENCE!! the spirit is what is important to the universe. your own story proves that the m-body is meaningless, that it CANNOT encompass the whole universe. the UNIVERSE WAS STILL LEF BEHIND! it DID implode, later, because the SENTIENCE was gone -- NOT BECAUSE THE M-BODY WAS GONE! the m-body can literally LEAVE THE UNIVERSE and STILL leave 'the universe' behind.

Uhh friend,

you just buried yourself in confusion,

the M-BODY LEFT creates a Universe, the NEXT PAGE, the UNIVERSE COLLAPSES.

You thought you had something by going into the issue and cropping a scan, but WHEN and WHERE in the issue, does it mention that because the "Spiritual Essence" left the Universe folded?


The very SAME SCAN you just posted, lol, clearly says,

"the ENTITY'S DEPARTURE has DEPRIVED THAT UNIVERSE OF MEANING"
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7355/unat1.th.jpg

So WHERE are you getting the statements you just ADDED to the Story of "Spiritual Essence" having anything to do with this?



Bottom line,

The UNIVERSES IMPLODED, because Eternity IS, WAS and ALWAYS will be EVERY Universe in the Multi-verses

http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/6757/et5kx6.th.jpg


Originally posted by leonidas
thanos could easily have absorbed the m-body and what would have been left? the universe.

If your basing your argument on what you just posted, your still climbing an oily slope.


Originally posted by leonidas
dude, showed a scans of panels all around that one, but chose not to post THAT panel. that is ALMOST like . . . cheating . . .

dude, showed and explained it ALL, but lack of thoroughness led you to believe I was being slick:

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Humans made a shield around the Earth which they sustained with their power, and there it stayed in stasis with in a collapsed Universe, awaiting the next ETERNITY to come by and recycle the collapse into a New Universe

"Cheating"?

ADDING text to the scan from your own thoughts is a bit more of a cheating technique, wouldn't you say?


Originally posted by leonidas
ps-i still stand by the idea that what ifs shouldn't be used. i showd it only to show that even in the book of YOUR choosing, my idea is born out.

Not at all,

the issue shows that if the M-BODY of ETERNITY LEAVES a UNIVERSE,

the UNIVERSE COLLAPSES, end of story.


And it has NOTHING to do with any "Spiritual Essence"


Try again...


Originally posted by leonidas
readers can come to their own conclusions.

That they can do.



"Eternity"

"Once again I AM REALITY"

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/5185/unihc9.th.jpg

"In THIS UNIVERSE THAT IS I"


swank

the m-body "is reality/universe". it LEFT the universe. it left BEHIND a universe. said universe was deprived of meaning. you think the meaning was the m-body that -- even after it left LEFT, left a universe behind . . .??

okay . . .

earlier i asked you a couple times: if eternity leaves the universe (ie when he visited the d of m or lt, or . . .) DOES THE UNIVERSE GO WITH HIM?

you repeatedly said "yes."

that scan that you left out and cropped all around clearly SHOWS and SAYS 'in the UNIVERSE the entity left behind.'

i don't know how much more clear you need things to be shown that the universe does NOT travel with the m-body and is in fact MORE than the m-body is. the vacated universe SURVIVED the departure of the m-body and imploded well after it left. why? because the SENTIENCE left -- the 'living part' of the universe, ie -- the universe's consciousness.

meh, i'm through with the subject, but, though you may not see it, i've little doubt others will.

.

.

Originally posted by leonidas
well, this series has stirred up a lot of controversy among the 'cosmic elite'. heheh. aka -- those guys who debate the cosmic stuff all the time!! anyhow, i just wanted to get some ideas down and shared, and i would welcome others to do the same.

***IF YOU PLAN ON ACTING LIKE AN ASS TOWARD ME OR ANY OTHER PARTICIPANT IN THIS THREAD I WILL REPORT YOU AS SUCH. FIRST AND ONLY WARNING!***

so, let's start off by answering an oft-asked question:

is the end canon?



http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7670/thanoshb3.th.jpg

undoubtedly.

and unfortunately . . . grumblegrumblegrumble . . .

The True Living Tribunal>>>>>>>The Heart of the Infinite

Originally posted by Horrificus
He effected A UNIVERSE. Period.
Please, people. Do not get talked into ignoring the words of the writers and the words on panel. This is simple.
He brought about the end of A universe.
That is all. The writer said it. The comic says it.
There is no reason to look into it anymore. If somebody has an arguement that is totally based upon me having to ignore what I am seeing and reading, I say that is a very POOR arguement.

One of the best posts in the thread

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
One of the best posts in the thread

Have a safe week

wrong thread

Originally posted by guy222
Have a safe week

You to mate. Take care

GS you still having the battle with Mr.Master? I thought it was suppose to happen friday.

Originally posted by leonidas
mm, you've gone through . . . a lot of trouble to say the same thing i've said about a half-dozen times: the m-body of eternity CAN encompass the whole universe if it is viewed from OUTSIDE the universe -- which is where it is most often encountered. of which your entropy issue is but one more example, as is gamora's entry and exit. seriously, i've said it a number of times, so all your scans simply continue to reiterate a point i stated long ago. but people love your scans, so keep 'em coming!

thing is: when have you seen the whole universe destroyed when the m-body of eternity has been WITHIN the universe? never. except for the one time in THE END. and what happens when THAT body is destroyed? there is still a universe left behind. the only way you can explain it is to speculate that thanos absorbed everything so fast that no void was made and that he went on to absorb the MULTIVERSE. a multiverse that is NEVER mentioned in the series. while UNIVERSE is repeatedly mentioned. you are ignoring the terminology and ascribing it the way you want to interpret it. if universe DID mean universe, your theory would utterly fall apart. i see no reason to say universe was NOT exactly what starlin meant. m-body absorbed, then the remainder and consciousness of eternity/infinity.

there is a second example of an eternity m-body falling while WITHIN the universe: when thanos defeats eternity in the IG the m-body remains behind in stasis but THANOS is the universe. how can that be if, as you've said over and over, EVERY M-BODY OF ETERNITY IS THE WHOLE UNIVERSE? if the whole universe is the eternity m-body, just what IS thanos?

my explanation of that event is simple -- thanos started battling the m-body (as we saw), then went beyond the physical plane to face the REAL spiritual eternity. the m-body was meaningless at this point as the REAL universe was now engaged and when thanos usurped the 'consciouness' of the universe, the m-body remained behind utterly useless. but also CLEARLY NOT the ENTIRE universe unless thanos was . . .?

my theory really DOES fit nicely imho (perhaps not in yours, or others, but, alas, i can live with that ) and i don't have to say atleza anchors the entire multiverse -- another postulation that have never been shown on panel. and you know what you say about things not on panel . . .

in support i showed that death was killed by strange (but you say instead he just . . . ko'd her . . . even though when she came back she was in a new m-body . . . malestrom killed anomaly's m-body and sent the m-body to oblivion. it didn't matter because the m-body is meaningless and we saw anomaly attack q later and even say it must have been the m-body in an issue ALL ABOUT m-bodies. but you pooh-poohed THAT as well and said quasar really doesn't know what he's talking about.

you don't believe quasar when he says that malestrom killed anomaly, but you cling to the fact that infinity ignored him and say that because of THAT you have 'conclusively proven there is only one d of m' responsible for supplying the entire OMNIVERSE with m-bodies?



you're terribly quick to ascribe the term multiverse to everything. only problem is: multiverse is almost never mentioned anywhere on panel. but you continue to demand on-panel evidence from me and anyone else. for you to ascribe it as freely as you do, then critcize me for speculating (while i showed just some of the leaps you made above) . . . doesn't sound too great. using only the info provided in the issue, it's a lot easier to say infinity was the current one and rather than ignoring him, was actually comatose like eternity and unable to answer BECAUSE she was bound with him. (speculation is NECESSARY in this case as ithe situation is never defined) but in MY speculations, there is no need to bring in other-universal infinities and entities or the omniverse -- things that are not only never mentioned but that are never even alluded to.

as to the lt scan. in your corner you have:

one single scan that contradicts all others of lt EVER.

in mine: i have what COULD be an error (which i actually dislike saying cuz i hate calling pis for reasons goober mentioned) so instead, i showed a scan that completely in every way supports exactly what i said was shown in the defenders mini series -- that any singular eternity can (because of its make-up) be seen to be a multiverse in and of itself. eternity himself acknowledges dormammu in the defenders series and references a past meeting AND eternity himself ALSO references a past meeting with dr strange and the ancient one. (and that was NOT strange tales . . .)

your reaction: crap writing. why? not because it rewrites at all marvel's cosmology, but rather because it does not fit in with YOUR opinion of what that cosmology should be. there's a big difference, my friend. different writers have the right to interpret things differently.

so, you have one scan that is contradicted in every other scan of lt, and i have 2 scans (plus what is in effect a whole mini-series) that reference singular eternity as a multiverse or collection of universes as well as lt's judgement failing in the ultraverse -- a seperate multiverse.

i am perfectly content to let people choose which interpretation they believe to be accurate.

lastly, as regards lt and the d of m. what is the very PURPOSE of the d of m? to CREATE M-BODIES. yet you see lt multiple times in that dimension and STILL don't think he uses m-bodies? to quoth the master-man: whatever.

i've really nothing more to add. people can read and come to whatever conclusions they like. it has -- as always -- been fun.

Beautiful post.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
GS you still having the battle with Mr.Master? I thought it was suppose to happen friday.

It was but he bailed out on me claiming he was really busy and yet he found plenty of time to debate with me in a thread which conveniently didnt have the restrictions of the challenge thread

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was but he bailed out on me claiming he was really busy and yet he found plenty of time to debate with me in a thread which conveniently didnt have the restrictions of the challenge thread

Well damn I was looking forward to that

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was but he bailed out on me claiming he was really busy and yet he found plenty of time to debate with me in a thread which conveniently didnt have the restrictions of the challenge thread

Your a true A hole dude,

I was able to get online late friday night, about 2 hours early saturday afternoon and now I was able to spare an hour.

I've debated with you since way back and I have never backed off.

Your whole purpose of defaming my name is pathetic, all your doing is collecting the few posts that disagree with me, and reposting it, that's a B*tch in affect.

Big time B*tch, even for you.

Originally posted by unknowable
I also have to agree with the masters guy, when thanos absorbed eternity and infinity he considered the rest of the cosmos a threat to him, and since no one can dispute masters scans showing eternity being the universe like 6 times, there's no reason to believe the eternity and infinity thanos absorbed was anything but the 616 universe.
After he absorbed one universe which was eternity and infinity, he continued on to absorb the rest of the multiverse.
I read quasar 37 and I also didn't see anywhere were it says m-bodys are a fraction of the whole, I never saw any equation being stamped on the m-bodys, only that they are representations of the abstract concept, and masters scans have convinced me that eternity is the universe, literally.

nice job masters thumbup1




Originally posted by unknowable
I did not know what to quote so I'll just say wow masters, WoW!

you amaze me again great job thumbsup


Thanx.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It was but he bailed out on me claiming he was really busy and yet he found plenty of time to debate with me in a thread which conveniently didnt have the restrictions of the challenge thread
I know this is off topic and such. But you are the most hypocrite ******* on KMC I just realised that you were calling me a non credible member just because I spammed your pathetic posts. You are the non credible not me you cocky ass. I have made 6 respect thread and posted a lot of scans into other respect threads I tried to help as many members as i could by posting scans and Issues or explained some things to them for atleast i have done something the forum and the members while all you did was posting your essays . You can kiss my ass.

Originally posted by leonidas
***IF YOU PLAN ON ACTING LIKE AN ASS TOWARD ME OR ANY OTHER PARTICIPANT IN THIS THREAD I WILL REPORT YOU AS SUCH. FIRST AND ONLY WARNING!***


please just pm him juggs.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
I know this is off topic and such. But you are the most hypocrite ******* on KMC I just realised that you were calling me a non credible member just because I spammed your pathetic posts. You are the non credible not me you cocky ass. I have made 6 respect thread and posted a lot of scans into other respect threads I tried to help as many members as i could by posting scans and Issues or explained some things to them for atleast i have done something the forum and the members while all you did was posting your essays . You can kiss my ass. Co-Freakin' signed...My favourite Juggernaut66666 owning GS post...The way I see it you got it right. I think that myself. I just don't like getting into big deep liquid stuff like an arguement like you have...

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is going no where.

Same ol same ol'

5 pages of ?


You're still not accepting my interpretation and you know I will not accept yours.


yawn (tired)



don't mean to keep you up.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Again, same ol, same ol'


The M-body is the Sentience and Life -Force of the Universe,

when it deprives the Universe of it's Life-Force sustaining Energies the Universe collapses.

Just like it did.

hmm, that's close . . . but the m-body is NOT necessarily the sentience, imo. the sentience is a seperate entity that MAY be housed in the m-body. i certainly disagree that the life force is the m-body. in the what if issue the sentience WAS in the body because it left the universe. but the m-body was obviously NOT the universe itself, or its totality.

Originally posted by leonidas


i don't know how much more clear you need things to be shown that the universe does NOT travel with the m-body and is in fact MORE than the m-body is. the vacated universe SURVIVED the departure of the m-body and imploded well after it left. why? because the SENTIENCE left -- the 'living part' of the universe, ie -- the universe's consciousness.

meh, i'm through with the subject, but, though you may not see it, i've little doubt others will.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
I know this is off topic and such. But you are the most hypocrite******* on KMC I just realised that you were calling me a non credible member just because I spammed your pathetic posts. You are the non credible not me you cocky ass. I have made 6 respect thread and posted a lot of scans into other respect threads I tried to help as many members as i could by posting scans and Issues or explained some things to them for atleast i have done something the forum and the members while all you did was posting your essays . You can kiss my ass.

Originally posted by Rewmac
Co-Freakin' signed...My favourite Juggernaut66666 owning GS post...The way I see it you got it right. I think that myself. I just don't like getting into big deep liquid stuff like an arguementlike you have...

Jugernaut66666 didn't own GS "dude", he just couldn't cope. All his tirade did was highlight poor spelling, grammar and indicate he was over emotional and took his accomplishments on a comics forum rather seriously. Leading me to believe he may not yet be twelve. No "e" in argument by the way.

Keep the faith

- Flame On

Originally posted by leonidas
well, this series has stirred up a lot of controversy among the 'cosmic elite'. heheh. aka -- those guys who debate the cosmic stuff all the time!! anyhow, i just wanted to get some ideas down and shared, and i would welcome others to do the same.

***IF YOU PLAN ON ACTING LIKE AN ASS TOWARD ME OR ANY OTHER PARTICIPANT IN THIS THREAD I WILL REPORT YOU AS SUCH. FIRST AND ONLY WARNING!***

so, let's start off by answering an oft-asked question:

is the end canon?



http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/7670/thanoshb3.th.jpg

undoubtedly.

and unfortunately . . . grumblegrumblegrumble . . .

When I bought it, I never liked it. Thanos is made to be some all powerful God. In reality, he's duped again. As always. Really dumb, made no sense at all. What I like, is now. Whatever Thanos 'did' every single being is back. Where's Thanos? I know. He is worshipping Death again. Like some stupid lil puppet. Oh, well. He knows his master.

Originally posted by guy222
When I bought it, I never liked it. Thanos is made to be some all powerful God. In reality, he's duped again. As always. Really dumb, made no sense at all. What I like, is now. Whatever Thanos 'did' every single being is back. Where's Thanos? I know. He is worshipping Death again. Like some stupid lil puppet. Oh, well. He knows his master.

amen.

Originally posted by leonidas
amen.

Have a good one, Leo. Cool sig and avatar

Originally posted by guy222
When I bought it, I never liked it. Thanos is made to be some all powerful God. In reality, he's duped again. As always. Really dumb, made no sense at all.

Thanos only loses (with "Supreme" power) cause he wants to so ...


http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/1285/t16ii.th.jpg

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7506/t23dp.th.jpg

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/362/t3se7.th.jpg


Originally posted by guy222
Where's Thanos? I know. He is worshipping Death again. Like some stupid lil puppet. Oh, well. He knows his master.

What's with this rant guy?

This is unseemingly for you.


All you have to do is read more comics and things make more sense, (most times)

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually you did say this:

Right here:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/431793_4-marvel-universe-the-end-discussion-thread
First Post.



I only beought it up cause you took scans and statements I made months back from that very same thread, so I figured I'd do the same.

Perhaps you don't see things the same way as you did then,

but then again, Neither do I.

Originally posted by leonidas
my take has never changed. the m-body represents the abstract, but it is an incomplete representation. essentially it IS the concept, but the body is meaningless (depending on what the abstract wills, of course). a destroyed m-body does not necessarily destroy the concept.



that is also from that thread. my position has NEVER altered though in the course of our discussions i may have not always stated it as clearly as i'd have liked. CAN an m-body house a concept's life force? i've always believed it was possible that it COULD (glance back and you will see i have been consistent on that point). the level of power that can be placed into an m-body is variable and open to the abstract to decide. the prime manifester said the same thing.







actually, i don't agree. my stance has ALWAYS remained the same. but i'm gald yours has altered, if only somewhat. now if i just knew what it has altered to . . .



still don't get this when you say the m-body is the concept and sentience and it was cast into oblivion. what was left to assume?



same place eternity's sentience was when thanos took over it -- it was subsumed by the person who overthrew it. the m-body of anomaly was irrelevent. the concept still existed. malestrom usurped it and took possession for a time of the concept. when he was killed, the still existing concept reassumed its role, made a new m-body and fought quasar.

i don't see how you can explain it any other way.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, that's close . . . but the m-body is NOT necessarily the sentience, imo.

(imo) the M-body IS the Sentience and Life-Force of any given Concept.


Originally posted by leonidas
the sentience is a seperate entity that MAY be housed in the m-body.

Eternity/Infinity is the Sentience and Life-Force of the Universe.

Eternity being the Concept of Time for that Universe.

Infinity being the Concept of Space for that Universe.


Back in the day Eternity was Both.



The M-body becomes the Sentience and Life-Force's Concept when said Concept orders an M-body from the Dimension of Manifestation.


I personally have NEVER seen the Sentience acting as a being separated from it's M-body.


You'll probably bring up Gamora freeing the oblivious mute Sentience that was WITHIN the M-body,

fine, that's your opinion.

IMO ... that was NOT a separate Entity.

Originally posted by leonidas
i certainly disagree that the life force is the m-body. in the what if issue the sentience WAS in the body because it left the universe. but the m-body was obviously NOT the universe itself, or its totality.

As you must know by now,

I changed my perspective,


it's true the M-body is not the actual Universe.

The M-body is the Totality of the Sentience and Life-Force of the Universe.


Hence, why that M-body was able to Create a Universe from Nothingness.

Wow,just read through the thread,much props to you Leo.

Leo and Juntai are the most over looked contributors to these forums!

Originally posted by Mr Master
(imo) the M-body IS the Sentience and Life-Force of any given Concept.

bro, bear with me because i am honestly trying to understand your view on this. i'm glad you've altered opinions, if only slightly, but i' still trying to get what you mean.



here's where we still differ. you say the mbody BECOMES the essence. so if it (the mbody) is destroyed, the concept should be destroyed. or am i misrepresenting your view?

i say the abstract places part of itself into the mbody to interact with physical beings. the proof i use are these: we have quasar asking an mbody where it's spiritual essence is. even when quasar SEES the comatose eternity to which he was directed, the ESSENCE is within the mbody -- which makes sense because they were OUTSIDE the universe. the spiritual essence though was bound within the framework of the mbody. quasar never DID find the essence. gamora had to go looking for it. you don't think beyonder destroyed the m-body, but my interpretation is that he did. eternity himself says he is a visualization. anomaly exists after its mbody is cast into oblivion. other examples are in this thread of mbodies being shown to be meaningless to the concept as a whole. i still say 2 eternity mbodies were present simultaneously when gamora freed the essence from its binding -- impossible by your definition. we also see multiple mbodies exist in the dimension of m where time is meaningless.



i don't get this either -- the mbody was in a coma -- utterly immobile -- when the sentience, independent of the body, struggled to be free of its binding. if they worked as you say, the essence would have been comatose as well and unable to struggle because the mbody is just a manifestation OF the essence. a comatose body would have been the result of a comatose essence. it wasn't. the essence was even depicted as being visually different in appearance from any version of an eternity mbody.



not everyone will make that type of admission. ironically, i think at times it CAN viewed as the totality or ACTUAL universe -- ie -- if an artist is showing us a view of the universe from OUTSIDE the universe.



we're closer now in our opinions . . .

i'll still say that the mbody is not NECESSARILY the totality, though i do and have said it is not impossible imo for the mbody to BE the totality, as you interpret it. but if you are right, then ANY time an mbody is destroyed the concept should be destroyed. i've never seen the complete destruction of an entire concept accept for the beyonder's wiping out of multi-death and perhaps the destruction of the universe. but again, those are easily explained -- if the universe is destroyed obviously eternity and his essence are snuffed out -- as for multi-death think the m-body CAN represent the totality -- it just doesn't NECESSARILY have to.

Originally posted by Skeets
Wow,just read through the thread,much props to you Leo.

Leo and Juntai are the most over looked contributors to these forums!






















































thanks, bro.

Originally posted by leonidas
that is also from that thread. my position has NEVER altered


Now:
Originally posted by leonidas
you've mentioned several times about wanting to see 2 m-bodies exist simultaneously outside the dimension of m.

sentience of eternity. we see what break free? an M-BODY of eternity.


so there we have 2 simultaneous eternity m-bodies existing


Then:
Originally posted by leonidas
yes . . .? because . . . the REAL eternity does not exist within ANY m-body. that's what i've been saying. the spiritual consciousness does NOT reside within the m-body . that's born out by his commenst to the m-body he saw before lt.

You cleared up your position so I understand.

Originally posted by leonidas
CAN an m-body house a concept's life force? i've always believed it was possible that it COULD

"could" is not good enough.


How can you have even the slightest doubt,

when you saw an M-body Create Realities from nothingness, TWICE!

The Second time it was a Multiverse!


Originally posted by leonidas
the level of power that can be placed into an m-body is variable and open to the abstract to decide. the prime manifester said the same thing.

Not only do I not agree with this because of opinions,

this is simply not true.


Anthropomorpho has NEVER said that about the Power of the Concept.



"Some Entities have very SPECIFIC Requirements, others give us FREER REIGN"
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/7412/m2iu8.th.jpg
"Frequently we FORM the MANIFESTATION-BODY to the MENTAL IMAGE of the Beholder"



The Fractals claim to have some freedom in the Form of the M-body, and NOTHING else.



Originally posted by leonidas
actually, i don't agree. my stance has ALWAYS remained the same.

If you say so friend.


Originally posted by leonidas
but i'm gald yours has altered, if only somewhat. now if i just knew what it has altered to . . .

When the Sentience and Life-Force of ANY Abstract Concept becomes an M-body,

that M-body becomes the Sentience and Life-Force of said Concept.



Originally posted by leonidas
still don't get this when you say the m-body is the concept and sentience and it was cast into oblivion. what was left to assume?

That's because it's YOU who continues to say that the Concept was tossed,

when it was only the Sentience.

The Concept was usurped by Maelstrom.

Originally posted by leonidas
same place eternity's sentience was when thanos took over it -- it was subsumed by the person who overthrew it. the m-body of anomaly was irrelevent. the concept still existed. malestrom usurped it and took possession for a time of the concept. when he was killed, the still existing concept reassumed its role, made a new m-body and fought quasar.

i don't see how you can explain it any other way.

I addressed this in my thread.




The M-body is the Sentience & Life-Force of the Abstract being.


Kill the M-body - you kill the Sentience -

the Life-Force and Concept stays behind.



Like in the Anomaly - Maelstrom case.

Like in the Thanos - Eternity case.




Which is probably why the Anomaly returned to it's position Off Panel

once Maelstrom was gone.


Same with Thanos, once he lost his position as the Sentience,

Eternity Off Panel returned to his position.






Now on the other hand






Erase the Concept from existence


and Sentience - Power and Concept become Non-Existent ...

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8712/d1ve2.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4596/d2jb9.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7426/d3qm1.th.jpg


Death is ERASED across The Entire Multiverse (retconned to Universe)

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6859/beyonderkillsdeath3tq0.th.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/2465/beyondernodeathjo1.th.jpg

excerpt from OHOTMU v5 (2006)
http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/7366/dbioge1.th.jpg
"Beyonder made Death Cease to Exist"



by Erasing the M-BODY

Mr M, do I understand you correctly?

You're saying that if an M-Body of said character(s) is killed, then it's life-force and concept, (what it represented), are still left "alive"...... Kind of like a ghost or Spirit...


But if a being were to erase not only the M-Body, but also the concept in which that M-Body represented, then whatever it was/represented, becomes nonexistent....


Basically kill the body, kill the ghost/spirit, and nothing will remain of what the body once was, and what it represented.


Is that correct?

Originally posted by Galan007
Mr M, do I understand you correctly?

You're saying that if an M-Body of said character(s) is killed, then it's life-force and concept, (what it represented), are still left "alive"...... Kind of like a ghost or Spirit...


But if a being were to erase not only the M-Body, but also the concept in which that M-Body represented, then whatever it was/represented, becomes nonexistent....


Basically kill the body, kill the ghost/spirit, and nothing will remain of what the body once was, and what it represented.


Is that correct?
Sounds similar to the deaths of the endless.

Originally posted by Galan007
Mr M, do I understand you correctly?

You're saying that if an M-Body of said character(s) is killed, then it's life-force and concept, (what it represented), are still left "alive"...... Kind of like a ghost or Spirit...


But if a being were to erase not only the M-Body, but also the concept in which that M-Body represented, then whatever it was/represented, becomes nonexistent....


Basically kill the body, kill the ghost/spirit, and nothing will remain of what the body once was, and what it represented.


Is that correct?

I thought I made my self clear.

Whether you agree or not, atleast you see what I'm saying.

Thanx G,

I thought it was me confusing the situation.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I thought I made my self clear.

Whether you agree or not, atleast you see what I'm saying.

Thanx G,

I thought it was me confusing the situation. Actually it makes perfect sense to me....

I just wanted to make sure the idea I had in my head, was what you were really explaining.

Originally posted by Galan007
Actually it makes perfect sense to me....

I just wanted to make sure the idea I had in my head, was what you were really explaining.

A couple of other examples:



The M-body getting Erased from Existence



http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/5489/kpz4.th.jpg
"the number of Universes in the Multiverse shall be one Less than Infinity"



Or Death ... Again

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/821/tun1kk6.th.jpg

http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/5790/tun3jw0.th.jpg

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/4494/tun4wc1.th.jpg


NO MORE DEATH! (no one can die again)


Why?


Cause the M-BODY was Nullified/Erased.

Check this out yall.



The actual UNIVERSE materializing Into an ETERNITY M-BODY before Strange


This is the best evidence I have to prove that the M-body does indeed contain

the Life-Force of the Universe.




"the Midnight SKY is COLLAPSING ...

FALLING in upon the Earth upon which they stand transfixed"

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6990/e1ro8.th.jpg

"EVERY ONE of its STARWORLDS Falling straight down on them!"




"as the Black STUFF of SPACE takes SHAPE ...

a SHAPE Dr Strange knows all too well"

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9391/e2gp4.th.jpg

"Towering above the Greenwich Village Skyline, FRAMED against absolute BLANK EMPTINESS, there stands ETERNITY!"


http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/350/e3ou8.th.jpg

"below the crowds slip from shock into stark, raving fear, as more more of their numbers become AWARE"




In order for the M-body to be shaped,

Reality itself (the Universe) Warps and Morphs into Eternity



Is it even remotely possible to dispute that the actual Universe can condense

into an M-body?

Genis shoots Entropy's M-body

and the M-body Explodes into a Multiverse


http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/923/en60bm.th.jpg

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8969/3ux7.th.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/757/4yt3.th.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/8126/5me1.th.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4766/6bm5.th.jpg

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/7153/7jp2.th.jpg

ENTROPY becomes ETERNITY!

(Not because the M-body IS the actual Multiverse,

but because it Contains the Life Force of a Multiverse)





Backside Front Page:


"Entropy is the Son of Eternity, the Cosmic Being whose Essence Encompasses the ENTIRETY of the MULTIVERSE ... Entropy has enlisted Captain Marvel in a Quest to Destroy His Father, ... Eternity and End All Creation"

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1967/cm1ls8.th.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
here's where we still differ. you say the mbody BECOMES the essence. so if it (the mbody) is destroyed, the concept should be destroyed. or am i misrepresenting your view?

Look at my example using the Beyonder scans (or the other scans)


Originally posted by leonidas
i say the abstract places part of itself into the mbody to interact with physical beings.

I disagree.



Originally posted by leonidas
the proof i use are these: we have quasar asking an mbody where it's spiritual essence is.

That M-body didn't even acknowledge Quasar,

that was a Past Reflection:


(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2006)
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1249/dmcopydt4.th.jpg
"Events which occur within the Dimension of Manifestations remain Represented there,

as the Realm exists Outside of normal time, this enables visitors to witness Past Events"


Originally posted by leonidas
even when quasar SEES the comatose eternity to which he was directed, the ESSENCE is within the mbody -- which makes sense because they were OUTSIDE the universe. the spiritual essence though was bound within the framework of the mbody.

Quasar wasn't directed by anyone, he just travelled until he found the

most recent M-body of Eternity.


We definitely agree on the rest of what you said here.



Originally posted by leonidas
quasar never DID find the essence. gamora had to go looking for it.

True,

but where did Gamora go looking for the Essence?

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/7292/gug7.th.jpg

Inside the M-body of Eternity.