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Hy boys and girls . I am new here but i know a bit of star wars myself and some time ago i heard about "lightsaber levels", used to "measure" the skill from the jedis and siths, so i done one myself. What do you think, from a scale 1 to 10:

Darth Sidious- 10
Yoda- 10 (i can't say sidious was superior to him with lightsaber, so i think they are equally matched with the lightsaber, even if sidious has more force power then yoda)
Anakin (ROTS)- 9 (in his normal state); 9,5 (focus and angered against dooku); 8,6 (unfocus and cocky against obi-wan on mustafar)
Windu- 9 (normal fight); 9,5 (against sidious, using his anger against him. Windu actually said he couldn't win even using sidious' anger against him, so i think 9,5 is a pretty good number)
Dooku- 9
Obi-wan (ROTS)- 8,1 (normal state); 8,4 (against anakin, focus and knowing his tricks and lightsaber technique)
Obi-wan (AOTC)-7,1
Padawan Anakin (AOTC)- 7,1
Darth Maul (TPM)- 7,9
Qui-gon jin (TPM)- 7,8
Padawan Obi-Wan (TPM)- 7 (normal state); 7,9 (angered)
Ki Adi-Mundi- 7,7
Plo Koon- 7,6
Kit Fito- 7,6

Then, about other famous characters maybe something like this:

Luke Skywalker (as grand jedi master full potential)- 10,5
Darth Revan- 9,6
Darth Malak- 9
Darth Bane- 9,2
Exar kun- 9,3

Opinions?

That was a cool list, it was nice reading and actually something new to the normal "just list everyone". Nice!



However, I'm lazy so I'll just list like the top dogs of the PT era for the moment IMO.


Yoda: 10.
Mace: 9 (with shatterpoint 9.5)
Sidious: 9.
Dooku: 9.
Anakin: 9.
Obi-Wan: 8,5.

Darth Sidious- 9.3
Yoda- 9.6
Anakin (ROTS)- 9.5 during his Dooku fight. 8.5 on Mustafar.
Windu- 9.6
Dooku- 9.4
Obi-wan (ROTS)- 8.5
Obi-wan (AOTC)-7.5
Padawan Anakin (AOTC)- 7.3
Darth Maul (TPM)- 7.6
Qui-gon jin (TPM)- 7.4
Padawan Obi-Wan (TPM)- 7.1 at his normal state. 7.5 once enraged.
Ki Adi-Mundi- 7.3
Plo Koon- 7.7
Kit Fito- 7.7

Then, about other famous characters maybe something like this:

Luke Skywalker - 10.
Darth Revan- 9.3
Darth Malak- 9.2
Darth Bane- 9.5
Exar kun- 9.8

Hm... Sorry but i don't agree with most you say:

1) windu said that even with vaadpad he could not beat sidious in lightsaber combat, he only won due to his shatterpoint ability. Also, it was said that the only ones that MAYBE could beat sidious was yoda and windu due to his vaadpad, by using his own anger against sidious, so if you make yoda 9,6 sidious should be 9,6 as well and windu a 9,3, a 9,4 or at max a 9,5 with vaadpaad.

2) dooku>sidious with lighsaber? Sidious was suppose to be the best with lightsaber...

3) anakin should be a bit more then obi-wan in mustafar since even unfocus he had the edge and obi-wan was on his defence

4) why ki adi-mundi is weaker then plo koon or kit fisto with his lightsaber? I always thought he was the 2 strongest non-human jedi master of the council (after yoda of course)... And he was more important then either koon and fisto on the jedi council

5) obi-wan is a bit overpowered in relation to the other masters. Since when he was better with the lightsaber then adi-mundi in AOTC? He was so freaking slow... Also, after 1 or 1,5 years in the CW Obi-wan said that fisto was better then him with the lightsaber, what would be unlike to happen if their difference was such one.

6) darth revan should have a greater difference to malak. He was not even at full power against him (he had just some months of training) and in the Quel-Droma vision it seems revan won against malak without any injury at all. Also, since when Kun or Bane were better then Revan? I think they may be better then malak, but revan? Bane said Revan's holocron had more knowledge then all the other's siths knowledge, kreia stated the fact that looking to revan was looking to "the heart of the force" and Adjunta Pall stated that Revan was very powerfull when he saw him in KOTOR, and adjunta pall was one of 4 strongest ancient siths. And i think we all know how strong the ancient siths were, or at least how they suppose to be.

I don't recall this being stated. Ever. Care to share your source?



Says who? Sidious is definately more powerful overall, but this is just saber ability, which is where Dooku excells, in my opinion.



What ever gave you that idea?





Keep in mind that Obi-Wan's style is inherently defensive. But you are correct in a way.



True, but wisdom determines that more than anything.



These are just my personal estimations. I do not believe we've seen Ki-Adi-Mundi engage someone on Dooku's level in saber dueling. If you have substantial, quantifyable evidence that helps us give characters like Ki-Adi-Mundi an accurate level in saber dueling, then by all means.



Could. Should. We have no indication how the fight went.

We have very, very little to quantify Revan's abilities. He could have been that powerful, but there's little substantial proof for that. At least we've seen solid evidence of Bane being an incredible saber duelist in his novel (From what I've read), and Exar Kun schooling Vodo-Siosk-Bass in a few panels.

I never implied that. 4 or 5 would be the "average Jedi"'s level. Pretty much all the main characters are far beyond that level. Still, what are you basing that off of, specifically? Mundi deflecting one or two blaster bolts?



That's probable, but I don't remember that being specifically stated.



He is undoubtably more powerful than them, but he did have an unspecified amount of allies with him.



Yes, Revan was the greatest warrior of that age. Suberb tacticien, incredible power, courage, and honor. I still don't see how that quote makes him superior to Exar Kun in saber ability.



Absolutely no evidence about how Pall would react in Kun's presence. Absolutely no evidence that Ajunta is on the level that Marka Ragnos' reputation implies. And I really don't recall Pall being that impressed by Revan.



Jolee didn't say he was stronger, either. The Rodian on Yavin outright states that Kun makes Revan and Malak look like children (Or something like that).



In raw saber ability. It is possible that Malak is superior in dueling, but vastly inferior in the Force. Too many unknowns.

No, i am basing in the fact that kit fisto had more importance then them and the fact that yoda himself trained him

Canderous' quote says "warrior". This time he was not talking about his tactician ability or his charism, he is talking about his fighting abilities.

Also, Ajunta Pall as big grave on his own, something that only Tulak Horde, told by kreia as the greatest sith duelist from the ancient times, Marka Ragnos and Naga Shadow. As you see, we is join wth very strong individuals.

Both darth bandon and calo nord had allies on his own.

And the rodian simply said that when Kun looked to him he trambled with fear. But we all know that when revan saw him for the first time he was a lightside user, so the rodian had no reason to fear him as he had when he saw Kun. And he was not a force sensitive to feel Revan's power...

And i never recall heard that malak was superior to revan in lightsaber abilities. Also, to kill 1 jedi knight with force powers is not to be "weak" in the force. Also, even master vandar said that "revan was always the leader, the strongest of the pair"

Hey, it seems like Vader hasn't even been mentioned here. Although he lacks speed, I'd give him at least a 7.5, at most a 9.5, if for nothing more than his incredible strength. After all, Anakin was "as fine a Djem So master as Dooku had ever seen" because of his raw strength. No one can deny that Vader is stronger than Anakin, so I think that at least puts him on par with, if not better than, ROTS Anakin in regards to lightsaber dueling.

This is a very interesting thread.

Kamhal, you are surely an innovative person.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
He is undoubtably more powerful than them, but he did have an unspecified amount of allies with him.
Calo Nord and Bandon also came with allies.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
Jolee didn't say he was stronger, either. The Rodian on Yavin outright states that Kun makes Revan and Malak look like children (Or something like that).
That Rodian can't judge the power of a Jedi. He never knew that the person (Jedi) who arrived on Yavin Station and met him was once Darth Revan. What he said was that Exar Kun was more powerful then any current Sith Lord alive and Malak was the most powerful Sith Lord in that time. But that Rodian never even met Malak personally, so he would be heavily under-estimating Malak's power as well.

Originally posted by Generic Hero
In raw saber ability. It is possible that Malak is superior in dueling, but vastly inferior in the Force. Too many unknowns.
Malak was never vastly inferior in the force. He was a very powerful force-user as well.

I must say that I don't understand what you mean when you say 9,5 or 6,3 ect. But anyways:
Darth Sidious: 9 (.5)
Yoda: 9 (.6)
Count Dooku: 8 (.8)
Darth Vader (ROTS, aka Darkside Anakin): 9 (.4)
ROTS light-side Anakin: 8 (.8)
ROTS Kenobi: 8 (.8)
AOTC Kenobi: 7 (.3)
AOTC Anakin: 7 (.1)
TPM Kenobi: 6 or 7 (imo 6.9 in normal state, 7.9 when enraged)
(these have been stated by Gillard. Based on these here's how I rank other Jedi/Sith)
Mace Windu: 9.6
Darth Maul: 8.3
Qui-Gon: 7.9
Mundi: 7.8
Plo Koon: 8.0
Kit Fisto: 7.8
Asajj: 8.1
Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba: 8.3
Quinlan Vos: 8.0
Agen Kolar: 8.3
Luminara Unduli: 8.0
General Grievous: 8.0 (ROTS), 9.0 (EU)
Shaak Ti: 7.8
K'Kruhk: 7.6
Darth Vader (OT) 8.15
Luke Skywalker: 4.0 (end of ESB), 7.1 (ROTJ), 9.8 (DE) 10 (anything after DE)
Darth Revan: 9.2
Malak: 8.9
Bane: 9.7
Kun: 9.7

... I thought you were talking about Ki-Adi-Mundi. Either way, Kit Fisto was on Obi-Wan's level in the Cestus Deception, which is why I put him above AOTC Obi, but below ROTS Obi.



Yes, and how can you substantiate this as something that makes Revan superior to Exar Kun?



Could be, but I merely brought it up because you brought up the point "Jolee didn't say Revan was weaker".



Of course not. No evidence either way. All we know is that Revan is more powerful overall. Enough to defeat Malak.



I'm aware of that. Again, pointless feat. Beating Bandon and Nord doesn't make him compare in the slightest to someone who schooled a respected Jedi Master; one of the best in the Order, in a page or two.



In the possible situation that Malak was the superior saber duelist, then no, Malak would have to be inferior in the force to actually lose that fight.

This is relative to the movies.
Yoda - 10.
Sidious - 9.75.
Dooku - 9.5.
Mace Windu - 9.
Anakin Skywalker - 8.5
Obi-Wan Kenobi - 8.
Darth Maul - 7.5.
General Grievous - 7.
Qui-Gon Jinn - 7.
Darth Vader - 5.
Luke Skywalker - 4.5.

Yeah, you are right, i should have make vader's skill. Ok, i think that:

Average jedi knight- 5
Average Jedi Master from the council- 6

Darth Vader- 7,9 (he defeated maul, didn't he? Barely, but he did it ); 6,8 (against luke, holding back and weakened by Luke's words, in ROTJ)

Luke- 4 (ESB, i hardly believe he was as strong as an average jedi knight); 6,7 (ROTJ); 7,1 (ROTJ, angered with Vader)

I wouldn't put Vader that low, seeing as how he manhandeled several masters and knights at once, and how his swordsmanship was described as legendary. He could beat someone who was said to be "flawless" in combat like he would be playing with a toy, like that person was a child!

DE Sidious: 9.8
Aayla Secura (ROTS): 7.4
Aurra Sing: 7.4
Tol Skorr: 7.3
Zao: 7.6
Tholme: 7.5
Tsui Choi: 7.6
Volfe Karkko: 8.9 (full strength), 8.0 (in the condition he was in when he faught Vos)

Speculation:
avg. PT Jedi Knight: 6.6
avg. PT Jedi Master: 7.1
avg. pt Council member: 7.9

I doubt it's 5 for a Knight and 6 for a Council Member, everyone we know of from the PT who's on the Council is somewhere in the 7's, 8's or 9's except maybe Trebor or Coleman Kjac. As for a Knight being a 5, I really doubt that TPM Kenobi was that far above the avg. knight.

Well, vader was legendary, but after turn half machine, i really doubt his lightsaber abilities, especially due to his lack of mobility. I think by that time he had to rely more on his powers and less in his lightsaber (before that it was more the other way).

By the way darksith, ok, maybe we should rise this a bit, but even them i am talkign about average people. Jedi's like obi-wan, anakin, windu, they are NOT average, they are the top, they are the best between ten thousand jedis, so it's natural their skill is considerably greater then average jedi knights and masters.

Originally posted by kamhal
By the way darksith, ok, maybe we should rise this a bit, but even them i am talkign about average people. Jedi's like obi-wan, anakin, windu, they are NOT average, they are the top, they are the best between ten thousand jedis, so it's natural their skill is considerably greater then average jedi knights and masters.
Yeah, their the best, but TPM Kenobi is not the best, and I highly doubt his saber skills as a Padawan are that far above msot Jedi's.

Originally posted by kamhal
Well, vader was legendary, but after turn half machine, i really doubt his lightsaber abilities, especially due to his lack of mobility. I think by that time he had to rely more on his powers and less in his lightsaber (before that it was more the other way).

By the way darksith, ok, maybe we should rise this a bit, but even them i am talkign about average people. Jedi's like obi-wan, anakin, windu, they are NOT average, they are the top, they are the best between ten thousand jedis, so it's natural their skill is considerably greater then average jedi knights and masters.



Actually, all the feats I mention was during the time he was a half-machine!

Well, let's not forget that:

1) he is obi-wan, and he fought pretty well

2) tecnically, he was a padawan, but the true is that after kill maul he turned a knight, and qui-gon even said he had nothing more to teach obi-wan and that he could become a knight, so i think we should not think him as an anakin in the AOTC, but more like and anakin in ROTS (i am just comparing the situations, not saying that his power was similar to anakin's one in ROTS)

So, ok, maybe not far from the average knight, but still stronger.

Where would you guys put Magnaguards in saber (electrostaff) skills?

Around 4 I'd say.

Ok. Yeah, they had all the seven styles programmed into them, and their droid reflexes helped them to fight good against jedi, but that's it. Are they lesser than the average jedi knight?

Just about, above the lesser knights though.

Brief List:

LOTF Luke Skywalker: 10
LOTF Jacen Solo: 9.6
DE Sidious: 9.5
LOTF Kyp Durron: 9.4
Post-KOTOR Revan: 9.3
Exar Kun: 9.2
Yoda: 9.1
Mace Windu: 9
Anakin Skywalker: 9
Dooku: 8.8
Kenobi: 8.6
Asajj Ventress: 8.3
Quinlan Vos: 8.0

Between levels there is an apparent (not considerable) difference. Thus, this is why Anakin can kill Dooku in a minute (in actual fight).

Magnaguards should be at least as strong as an average jedi knight i think, they fight pretty well and they gave a hard time to the jedis who were guarding the emperor.

Darth Sidious- 8.5
Yoda- 9.4
Anakin (ROTS)- 9.5 (in his normal state); 10 (focus and angered against dooku); 8 (unfocus and cocky against obi-wan on mustafar)
Windu- 9 (normal fight); 9.7 (Vaapad)
Dooku- 8.9
Obi-wan (ROTS)- 7
Obi-wan (AOTC)-5
Padawan Anakin (AOTC)- 8
Darth Maul (TPM)- 9.2
Qui-gon jin (TPM)- 7
Padawan Obi-Wan (TPM)- 4 (normal state); 9 (angered)
Ki Adi-Mundi- 6.9
Plo Koon- 8
Kit Fito- 7.6
Luke Skywalker (as grand jedi master full potential)- 10
Darth Revan- 9.5
Darth Malak- 9
Darth Bane- 8.5
Exar kun- 9.3

*Waits for someone to list Marka Ragnos as a ten*

Yes, for he faught pretty well, but nothing outstanding. Which is why I put him .3 above the avg. Knight and 1.3 above the avg. Knight when he uses the Darkside.
maul he turned a knight, and qui-gon even said he had nothing more to teach obi-wan and that he could become a knight, so i think we should not think him as an anakin in the AOTC, but more like and anakin in ROTS (i am just comparing the situations, not saying that his power was similar to anakin's one in ROTS)
Okay, yeah. So what, though, I still doubt he was that far above the strength of the avg. Knight.

Exactly what I've already said.

Good question. I say 2.9. Their fast but beyond that arn't much. Still, that's good for a droid.


Really? How would you rank ESB Luke, then? I put him at a 4 and I don't think he'd pwn a Magnaguard but I'd say he's a fair bit ahead of it.


Highly doubtful seeing as Gillard says he's an 8. Why would he be a 7 anyways? Plus you put Kit as 7.6 and we know ROTS kenobi > Kit.

Originally posted by Blaxican
*Waits for someone to list Marka Ragnos as a ten*

Lightsabers didn't even exist in his time.

Yes, they did. But Sith swords were more popular, it seems.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber#History

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Lightsabers didn't even exist in his time.

Someone will say it anyway.

Welcome aboard, Kamhal!

I like this thread, it's not a senseless "Post who you like!" thread, you have to have reasoning. w00t

I'll list mine later.

Lightsabers did exist at the time (real old crappy ones), but the ancient sith did not have access to them it seems.

yoda 0
luke 0
mace 0
dooky 0
alln put together0.1
me 10

ok
yoda about 9
luke 10 when jedi master
kyle 9.5 jedi battlemaster
dooku 9
palp 9
grevious guard 6 they get cut down quick
grevious 8.5
obi 8.8

According with wikipedia, lightsabers were invented 15 000 years ago. Also, Adjunta Pall was once a jedi, so even if the old siths didn't know about lightsabers, Adjunta Pall and their companions should knew them. So, Ragnos should knew them as well. Also Tulak Horde was older them Ragnos, i think, and he was a "lightsaber duelist".

Originally posted by kamhal
According with wikipedia, lightsabers were invented 15 000 years ago. Also, Adjunta Pall was once a jedi, so even if the old siths didn't know about lightsabers, Adjunta Pall and their companions should knew them. So, Ragnos should knew them as well. Also Tulak Horde was older them Ragnos, i think, and he was a "lightsaber duelist". well if the theory jedi had sabers first the jedi gon dark should know to likem adjunta pall then use them in a more violent way

These are full-potential stats.

Luke Skywalker- 10

Yoda- 10

Mace Windu- 9.5(regular) to 10(when shatterpoint and vaapad fully come into play)

Darth Tyranus- 9 to 9.5

Darth Sidious- 9

Anakin Skywalker- 9 to 9.5

Obi Wan Kenobi- 8.5 to 9

Darth Vader- 8.5 to 9

General Grievous- 8.5 to 9.5

Darth Maul- 9

Kit Fisto- 8

Qui Gon Jinn- 7.5 to 8

Darth Bane, Kas'im, Exar Kun, Ulic Quel-Droma, Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious are the top dogs. Not ****ing Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Kyle Katarn or Lumiya!!

Originally posted by The Planet
Darth Bane, Kas'im, Exar Kun, Ulic Quel-Droma, Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious are the top dogs. Not ****ing Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Kyle Katarn or Lumiya!! I'm not that much aware of EU characters. Mostly of movies.

lol, I should have made myself more clear! That post, in no way, was directed towards you. I hardly even read your post, I was just responding to the forum as a whole, not you.

Luke, Jacen, Sidious, Kyp, Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Kas'im, Bane, Kun, and Ulic are all among the very best, I'd say. Yes, Planet, most of the PT guys are among the absolute best.

Well definitely not Kyp, he's pretty average with a saber.

That alien in the conisel with the long neck is much better then Yodi! he even taken out darth vader in TPM. So the guy with long neck = super elite = better then luke

Mace Windu: 9.6
Yoda: 9.5
Darth Sidious: 9
Darth Tyranus: 9
ROTS Anakin: 8.5
ROTS: Kenobi: 8.5
Darth Maul: 8.5
OT Darth Vader: 8.5
Qui Gon Jinn: 7.5