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this is classic thor not thor with odin power

MM takes the majority

Hehe....same thing as the BRB fight, pretty much.

Speaking of Bill, nice sig Souja. He doesn't get the cred he deserves on the forum.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Hehe....same thing as the BRB fight, pretty much.

Speaking of Bill, nice sig Souja. He doesn't get the cred he deserves on the forum.

Thanks

If MM fought like Protex, he would win. Since he won't, Thor wins 7/10

MM is on par with CM in strength, plus unlike supes he is not vulnerable to magic, and fire is not going to work either plus he is way fater than thor and more versatile(spelling) than even superman

Supes >>> MM in terms of strength.

J'onn can hang with Supes for a while in the strength department....but not beat him.

Originally posted by hunbu04
MM is on par with CM in strength, plus unlike supes he is not vulnerable to magic, and fire is not going to work either plus he is way fater than thor and more versatile(spelling) than even superman

He's not way faster than Thor, nor is he more versatile. Thor has much more options to win than the other way around.

Thor 9/10

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Hehe....same thing as the BRB fight, pretty much.

Speaking of Bill, nice sig Souja. He doesn't get the cred he deserves on the forum.

Bah. His sig is half-stolen. Rewmac stole my render.

Doesn't matter. All of them look alike on the backround mostly. All some kind of blurry colored backround.

Allot of poeple like them know.

how is thor faster and more versatile
MM speed of flight is supersonic, he have the power to grant one wish, he is invisible,invulnerable,intangible,longivity,xavier
level telepath,enhance vision and hearing, heat vision on par with supes, superstrength on par with CM,shapeshift,etc. dude that is more versatile than thor without a doubt

Originally posted by hunbu04
how is thor faster and more versatile
MM speed of flight is supersonic, he have the power to grant one wish, he is invisible,invulnerable,intangible,longivity,xavier
level telepath,enhance vision and hearing, heat vision on par with supes, superstrength on par with CM,shapeshift,etc. dude that is more versatile than thor without a doubt

oh callow youth.

Originally posted by hunbu04
how is thor faster and more versatile
MM speed of flight is supersonic, he have the power to grant one wish, he is invisible,invulnerable,intangible,longivity,xavier
level telepath,enhance vision and hearing, heat vision on par with supes, superstrength on par with CM,shapeshift,etc. dude that is more versatile than thor without a doubt

What do you mean how, because he is.

Thor is much than MM. Thor has been clocked at 3x the speed of light and wasn't even stated to be his max. So much for traveling at supersonic speeds...

Invisible and intangible are one in the same, and if you honestly believe MM has more power than Thor than your deluded.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
What do you mean how, because he is.

Thor is much than MM. Thor has been clocked at 3x the speed of light and wasn't even stated to be his max. So much for traveling at supersonic speeds...

Invisible and intangible are one in the same, and if you honestly believe MM has more power than Thor than your deluded.

Invisible means cannot be seen by the electromagnetic spectrum of light. Intangible means out of sinc or phased out of and cannot be touched. THey are different.

like hell is thor 3xspeed of light
according to thor profile his top speed without help is 115mph so stop making up facts

Originally posted by hunbu04
like hell is thor 3xspeed of light
according to thor profile his top speed without help is 115mph so stop making up facts

Go check the Thor respect thread. It was travel speed, but he was still travelling at three times the speed of light.

Also, he's whirled him hammer at many multitudes at the speed of light, as well.

Originally posted by hunbu04
like hell is thor 3xspeed of light
according to thor profile his top speed without help is 115mph so stop making up facts

Yep thats 115mph

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/lightspeed0050lh.jpg

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
NOpe sorry, ur taking real life definition of a comic book power. In comics something intangible can still be seen but not touched. Look at kitty pride, and vision, they can be seen when intangible, but not touched. try again.

shut up

Originally posted by Soujaboy
shut up

He's right (for once).

Intangible is the 'phasing' that characters can do. Phasing through walls, and the like?

Intangibility does not mean invisibility, and they don't always go hand in hand.

Originally posted by Soljer
He's right (for once).

Intangible is the 'phasing' that characters can do. Phasing through walls, and the like?

Intangibility does not mean invisibility, and they don't always go hand in hand.

Either way the result is the same...











With a ghost faced Asgardian standing over a bloodied Martian.

Thor isn't much stronger than MM, if he is at all.

He's more durable though.

But MM easily has the more useful speed advantage.

I'll say MM 6/10.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Thor isn't much stronger than MM, if he is at all.

He's more durable though.

But MM easily has the more useful speed advantage.

I'll say MM 6/10.

Yes he is. He's close to Superman level, who himself is quite a bit stronger than J'onn.

Thor can also phase but not as easily as MM. Thor can teleport. Thor can make forcefields that can contain anything. Thor can via magic BFR anyone.

MM got manhandled by Supergirl recently.

Thor beats the snot out of MM. IIRC in Marvel vs DC he one shoted him.

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Thor can also phase but not as easily as MM. Thor can teleport. Thor can make forcefields that can contain anything. Thor can via magic BFR anyone.

MM got manhandled by Supergirl recently.

Thor beats the snot out of MM. IIRC in Marvel vs DC he one shoted him.

Also; Thor has hit intangible beings before. That whole 'magic' thing is a *****, eh?

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Thor can also phase but not as easily as MM. Thor can teleport. Thor can make forcefields that can contain anything. Thor can via magic BFR anyone.

MM got manhandled by Supergirl recently.

Thor beats the snot out of MM. IIRC in Marvel vs DC he one shoted him.

You do realize that The Justice league let Supergirl win becuz she was Sueprman's cousin right? they dind't want to hurt her. Jonn had it all planned along. He even said several times that it's taken care of when refering to stopping her. Supergirl can't beat MM on her best day.

Thor wins, he is faster and has what it takes to take the manhunter down.

Jonn gives a fight but he wont win. he can beat a multitude of characters due to his superior versatility and raw strength.However thor,BRB and most other hammer weilders are the most versatile characters in comics .

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
You do realize that The Justice league let Supergirl win becuz she was Sueprman's cousin right? they dind't want to hurt her. Jonn had it all planned along. He even said several times that it's taken care of when refering to stopping her. Supergirl can't beat MM on her best day.

Yeah sure... several members of the Justice League just let Supergirl almost kill them... that make sense....

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Yep thats 115mph

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/lightspeed0050lh.jpg

Thor's speed has be proven once again good job soujaboy. I wish the writers would use it alot more because people would quit doubting it.

Originally posted by hunbu04
MM is on par with CM in strength, plus unlike supes he is not vulnerable to magic, and fire is not going to work either plus he is way fater than thor and more versatile(spelling) than even superman

CM and SM >>> MM in stength and speed

Originally posted by D-Block
Thor's speed has be proven once again good job soujaboy. I wish the writers would use it alot more because people would quit doubting it.

Its b/c Thor is always written going blow for blow with everyone he faces or pounding them with Mjolnir. Apparently writers feel that people don't want to see him speedblitz someone into a wall. I guess they rather show off his other powers like odinforce, godblast, strength, durability etc...

Originally posted by nimbus006
Its b/c Thor is always written going blow for blow with everyone he faces or pounding them with Mjolnir. Apparently writers feel that people don't want to see him speedblitz someone into a wall. I guess they rather show off his other powers like odinforce, godblast, strength, durability etc...

Yeah speedblitz really isn't his style.

MM in a hard fought battle. MM is so underrated

Originally posted by jasofisc
MM in a hard fought battle. MM is so underrated

Overrated if you believe he can defeat Thor...

Originally posted by Soljer
Yes he is. He's close to Superman level, who himself is quite a bit stronger than J'onn.

J'onn is Superman level.

Ask the white Martians.

Ask Ultraman.

Superman maybe a bit stronger than J'onn, but if J'onn can make Supergirl bleed in one punch, then he can do the same to her cousin.

And Thor isn't as durable as Superman.

If J'onn is stronger than Thor, its negligible at best.

He has a better way of dealing with brute strength as well, and vastly more useful combat speed.

Plus, a mindblitz, plus phasing = a very hurt Thundergod.

I honestly hate arguing against Thor, cuz he's got all these one time power uses that are hell to argue against.

IF they met in a comic, i'd put money on J'onn.

The Last Martian 6/10

Hes not the last martian

Originally posted by UniOmni
J'onn is Superman level.

Agreed.... but not in strength.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Ask the white Martians.

Wasn't it Superman who pwned Protex even w/o his heat vision?

Not to mention the other bundles of white Martians he's beaten...

Originally posted by UniOmni
Superman maybe a bit stronger than J'onn

Out of curiosity, what is J'onn's greatest strength feat?

I read a lot of him, but nothing he's done matches Superman's top strength feats...

I do go by strength feats, but i place more emphasis on fight showings.

Darkseid doesn't have lifting feats, but we know he dwarfs Superman in strength normally.

J'onn doesn't have the feats, but him hitting Supergirl and making her bleed with one punch, tells me that he's squarely in the ballpark of Kryptonian might.

Superman is stronger, but he won't take a punch from J'onn with little damage.

Give the Martian that much credit, please.

Originally posted by batdude123







Out of curiosity, what is J'onn's greatest strength feat?

I read a lot of him, but nothing he's done matches Superman's top strength feats...
To be fair Jonn doesnt have the exposure superman does plus he beats supes with versatility not raw strength and thor 6-7/10

Originally posted by UniOmni
I do go by strength feats, but i place more emphasis on fight showings.

Darkseid doesn't have lifting feats, but we know he dwarfs Superman in strength normally.

J'onn doesn't have the feats, but him hitting Supergirl and making her bleed with one punch, tells me that he's squarely in the ballpark of Kryptonian might.

Superman is stronger, but he won't take a punch from J'onn with little damage.

Give the Martian that much credit, please.

I give J'onn all the credit in the world, but Supergirl DID end up winning that fight, did she not?

Anyway, simply because I think Superman is stronger than J'onn, doesn't mean I don't think he can't compete in a fight or anything like that...

Supergirl won every fight under Loeb, until she fought her cousin.

Everybody jobbed in that arc.

And he didn't have the brainpower to phase while being choked?

Originally posted by Martian_mind
To be fair Jonn doesnt have the exposure superman

*Ugh*

Cop out argument...

Originally posted by Martian_mind
does plus he beats supes with versatility not raw strength

Negatory.

Superman's SPEED (emphasis on speed) and strength combo would be too much for J'onny-boy.

The fastest I've seen J'onn travel is somewhere around mach 20. That doesn't cut it against somebody with fighting speeds like Superman.

However, I think that's enough for J'onn to efficiently keep Thor off his guard. With his speed that is...

I think we can all agree the supergirl thing was pis okay.its not jonns fault he is one of comics biggest jobbers

Originally posted by UniOmni
Supergirl won every fight under Loeb, until she fought her cousin.

Everybody jobbed in that arc.

And he didn't have the brainpower to phase while being choked?

So somebody can use the fact that J'onn made Kara bleed with one punch, but they can't use the fact that she won the fight?

malfoy

Its not the problem that she won the fight Batshit.

Its how.

She choked him..........He could've phased, gotten free and continued the attack.
He had a brainfart.
As did Flash, and everybody who wasn't kryptonian.

And iirc, J'onn was clocked at Mach something in the hundreds during JLA:Earth Two.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Its not the problem that she won the fight Batshit.

Its how.

She choked him..........He could've phased, gotten free and continued the attack.
He had a brainfart.
As did Flash, and everybody who wasn't kryptonian.

And iirc, J'onn was clocked at Mach something in the hundreds during JLA:Earth Two.

I'm just saying, it's either all crap writing or it isn't. You can't really pick and choose which part is.

Are you sure it was that high? J'onn hasn't gone that fast before. Anyway, still MUCH slower than Supes, and his fighting speed also pails in comparison.

Originally posted by UniOmni
J'onn is Superman level.

Ask the white Martians.

Ask Ultraman.

Superman maybe a bit stronger than J'onn, but if J'onn can make Supergirl bleed in one punch, then he can do the same to her cousin.

And Thor isn't as durable as Superman.

If J'onn is stronger than Thor, its negligible at best.

He has a better way of dealing with brute strength as well, and vastly more useful combat speed.

Plus, a mindblitz, plus phasing = a very hurt Thunder god.

I honestly hate arguing against Thor, cuz he's got all these one time power uses that are hell to argue against.

IF they met in a comic, i'd put money on J'onn.

The Last Martian 6/10

He made her bleed, no big deal he still lost. Thor has the strength feats, and the battle feats that are comparable to the best of em. No doubt that Thor's feats trump MM's.

Thor may not be as durable as Superman, but he isn't far from it. The Thunder god has casually walked and talked on the sun, and took no damage from an attack that was the equivalent to that of an exploding sun. Add That to Thor's personal shields whom have taken small universal lv blast, and you have a fairly good defense.

J'onn isn't as strong as Thor, no is he as strong as Superman. Just go and compare feats, there no even close.

Better way of dealing with brute strength, what do mean? If your talking about characters they've fought, Thor's fought and held his own or better against the best. Mangog, Kurse, The Fourth Celestial host, Hulk, Drax with the PG, BRB, Silver Surfer, etc.

Thor has a massive defense against telepathic assaults, being able to withstand an attack that took even Moondragon down.

Thor's able to detect and attack characters who can phase. Just ask Vision how well he did when tried to phase against Thor.

Thor 8/10

MM goes to another dimension when he phases (info from Draco)

and besides Thor has been mind controlled before, yes or no?

All thor does is bang the damn hammer

Faster than him:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6299634

strechier than him:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/?action=view&current=MartianManhunter30p21.jpg

just as strong:
http://img31.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldsfinest1972212045jg.jpg
http://img31.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldsfinest1972212065qa.jpg

Ultraman takes a beating
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swisscheese7gw.jpg

Dont get him angry
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonn0061ys9wr.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonn0078dh9gy.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonn0083kk7vp.jpg

thats just....cool:
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japan59bu1ok.jpg

I mean...common people. He is taking them ALL on
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jla81eu2sy.jpg

I don't go by lifting feats primarily, due to how the brute characters tend to have more.

I go by fights.

J'onn has shown that he can hit the most durable of characters, and draw blood easily.

The strength differences between the three, Superman, Thor and J'onn aren't consequential enough to change the outcome of this match.

J'onn is fast enough to hit Thor at will, and high powered enough to beat him for the majority.

6/10

Thor, frankly isn't among that group.

J'onn has the more useful combat speed easily.
And if Thor has had trouble with speedsters before, hows he gonna deal with someone who pretty much eclipses most Marvel speedies?

J'onn can shape shift and negate damage. See him fighting SBP for reference.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
just as strong:
http://img31.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldsfinest1972212045jg.jpg
http://img31.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldsfinest1972212065qa.jpg

Byrnes' weak Superman...

Originally posted by UniOmni
I don't go by lifting feats primarily, due to how the brute characters tend to have more.

I go by fights.

J'onn has shown that he can hit the most durable of characters, and draw blood easily.

The strength differences between the three, Superman, Thor and J'onn aren't consequential enough to change the outcome of this match.

J'onn is fast enough to hit Thor at will, and high powered enough to beat him for the majority.

6/10

Thor, frankly isn't among that group.

J'onn has the more useful combat speed easily.
And if Thor has had trouble with speedsters before, hows he gonna deal with someone who pretty much eclipses most Marvel speedies?

J'onn can shape shift and negate damage. See him fighting SBP for reference.

We can go by Fights or lifting feats, and it'll clearly show that Thor's the stronger of the two.

He made Supergirl bleed, which really isn't a big deal. Thor's ko'd Drax with the PG, Silver Surfer, BRB, etc.

Yes, it actually is. J'onn just doesn't cut it when it comes to strength feats. If you compare Thor's strength and battle feats, and you then compare J'onn's, it's clear that Thor is the stronger of the two.

J'onn's not that fast. His best feat is him going Mach 20, Thor can swing Mjolnir much faster, as in light speed.

Thor 8/10, he's much more powerful than J'onn.

Yes Thor's had trouble with slow characters, but he's also been ko'd by a rock. Thor tends to job a lot if you haven't noticed.

So he shape shifts and gets teleported to Hel.

Thor 8/10

Its simply denial to say that MM can't win at least 4 outta ten.

The reason why i say strength differences don't matter here, is because if J'onn punches Thor, he won't shrug off the blow.

You think Namor has hurt Thor? Or Thing?

J'onn is a peer in strength, if not an equal.

He's got faster combat speed, more useful as well, and decent firepower.

Plus Thors resistance to tp isn't solid.

J'onn has the tools and showings.
He can get a stalemate, if not majority.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Its simply denial to say that MM can't win at least 4 outta ten.

The reason why i say strength differences don't matter here, is because if J'onn punches Thor, he won't shrug off the blow.

You think Namor has hurt Thor? Or Thing?

J'onn is a peer in strength, if not an equal.

He's got faster combat speed, more useful as well, and decent firepower.

Plus Thors resistance to tp isn't solid.

J'onn has the tools and showings.
He can get a stalemate, if not majority.

No, it's simply fact and feat.

Thus far all you've stated is J'onn's strength is on par with Thor's, without any real, solid, proof or evidence. I've given examples of Thor's strength, and you've been unable to give feats of J'onns that rival Thor's.

He can take a lot more of J'onns punches than the other way around. I have given some of Thor's higher durability feats, which again trump MM's.

He's not faster, his greatest speed feats don't compare with Thor's. Unless you can provide proof otherwise, I'll stand my ground.

Solid enough for him to thrash J'onn. The question should be, is J'onn's defense able to cope with Thor's offensive ability.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
MM goes to another dimension when he phases (info from Draco)

and besides Thor has been mind controlled before, yes or no?

All thor does is bang the damn hammer

Faster than him:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6299634

strechier than him:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/?action=view&current=MartianManhunter30p21.jpg

just as strong:
http://img31.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldsfinest1972212045jg.jpg
http://img31.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldsfinest1972212065qa.jpg

Ultraman takes a beating
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swisscheese7gw.jpg

Dont get him angry
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonn0061ys9wr.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonn0078dh9gy.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonn0083kk7vp.jpg

thats just....cool:
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japan59bu1ok.jpg

I mean...common people. He is taking them ALL on
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jla81eu2sy.jpg

Originally posted by Blair Wind
MM goes to another dimension when he phases (info from Draco)

and besides Thor has been mind controlled before, yes or no?

All thor does is bang the damn hammer

Faster than him:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6299634

strechier than him:
http://photobucket.com/albums/v330/CDTM3000/?action=view&current=MartianManhunter30p21.jpg

just as strong:
http://img31.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldsfinest1972212045jg.jpg
http://img31.imageshack.us/my.php?image=worldsfinest1972212065qa.jpg

Ultraman takes a beating
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swisscheese7gw.jpg

Dont get him angry
http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonn0061ys9wr.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonn0078dh9gy.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jonn0083kk7vp.jpg

thats just....cool:
http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=japan59bu1ok.jpg

I mean...common people. He is taking them ALL on
http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jla81eu2sy.jpg

MUCH faster than MM

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/lightspeed0050lh.jpg

Thor is much stronger

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/midgardserpent1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/midgardserpent2.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/planetpressure6vr.jpg

Galactus takes a beating

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsGalactusfirst1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsGalactusfirst2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsGalactusfirst3.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsGalactusfirst4.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsGalactusfirst5.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsGalactusfirst6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsGalactusfirst7.jpg

Thor's look angrier...

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS3.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS4.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS5.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS7.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS9.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS10.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS11.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS12.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS13.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS14.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS15.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS16.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS17.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/SilverS18.jpg

This is better...

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/thor1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/thor2.jpg

Thor's taking them all on...

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsInfinity1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsInfinity2.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsInfinity3.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsInfinity4.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsInfinity5.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsInfinity6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Scans/ThorvsInfinity7.jpg

Get my point?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
No, it's simply fact and feat.

Thus far all you've stated is J'onn's strength is on par with Thor's, without any real, solid, proof or evidence. I've given examples of Thor's strength, and you've been unable to give feats of J'onns that rival Thor's.

He can take a lot more of J'onns punches than the other way around. I have given some of Thor's higher durability feats, which again trump MM's.

He's not faster, his greatest speed feats don't compare with Thor's. Unless you can provide proof otherwise, I'll stand my ground.

Solid enough for him to thrash J'onn. The question should be, is J'onn's defense able to cope with Thor's offensive ability.

See, the problem with people who rely on feats alone, is that they negate their own argument in the long run.

Jesse7 said that Thanos couldn't be as strong, if not stronger than Superman, since he doesn't have lifting feats that outdo Superman.

You say the same in regard to Thor and MM.

MM doesn't have the pure lifting feats that Thor does. So what?

Darkseid hasn't lifted squat, but we know he's above the top tier in strength.

Same for DD. And Thanos.

I can see who MMs beaten, who i'd put on the level or above Thor.
Thor might be a hair stronger than MM.

But it won't be like Hulk vs Wonder Girl.

They're peers, if not equals.

And frankly, thats me being generous, since in all honesty, DC on average plays on a larger scope than Marvel does, currently.

Marvel, big punches = characters knocked a mile or two.

DC big punches = characters knocked off planet, or around the world.

MM has shown he can beat people on Thors level.

Ultraman, Etrigan, Supergirl(didn't beat her, but he bloodied her with one hit, and her durability> Thors) Sbp(didn't beat him, but knocked him for a loop) and more.

Or above it, depending on who you ask.

And don't get me started on the absurdness that is Thors speed.

He has the edge in travel speed. Thats it.

MM thinks faster, reacts faster, and is smarter.

And J'onn doesn't have to take punches.

Thats the beauty of being a premier shape/mass changer, and premier phaser.
He can literally roll with the punches.

Ulik and Durok hurt Thor, but someone who's likely stronger and much faster won't?

Ha!

And the best thing about Thorbags, is that the best stuff happened when he was in a beserker rage, and everything else is over a decade old!

Haha!

Omni with the KO.

Originally posted by UniOmni
See, the problem with people who rely on feats alone, is that they negate their own argument in the long run.

Jesse7 said that Thanos couldn't be as strong, if not stronger than Superman, since he doesn't have lifting feats that outdo Superman.

You say the same in regard to Thor and MM.

MM doesn't have the pure lifting feats that Thor does. So what?

Darkseid hasn't lifted squat, but we know he's above the top tier in strength.

Same for DD. And Thanos.

I can see who MMs beaten, who i'd put on the level or above Thor.
Thor might be a hair stronger than MM.

But it won't be like Hulk vs Wonder Girl.

They're peers, if not equals.

And frankly, thats me being generous, since in all honesty, DC on average plays on a larger scope than Marvel does, currently.

Marvel, big punches = characters knocked a mile or two.

DC big punches = characters knocked off planet, or around the world.

MM has shown he can beat people on Thors level.

Ultraman, Etrigan, Supergirl(didn't beat her, but he bloodied her with one hit, and her durability> Thors) Sbp(didn't beat him, but knocked him for a loop) and more.

Or above it, depending on who you ask.

And don't get me started on the absurdness that is Thors speed.

He has the edge in travel speed. Thats it.

MM thinks faster, reacts faster, and is smarter.

And J'onn doesn't have to take punches.

Thats the beauty of being a premier shape/mass changer, and premier phaser.
He can literally roll with the punches.

Ulik and Durok hurt Thor, but someone who's likely stronger and much faster won't?

Ha!

And the best thing about Thorbags, is that the best stuff happened when he was in a beserker rage, and everything else is over a decade old!

Haha!

how many skyfathers has MM stalemated?

Thor stalemated Zeus for months on ancient Olympus.

how many Cosmic Abstracts has MM taken shots from?

Thor has fought Celestials twice (and lost put out more power than MM has ever shown).

How many planet busting shots has MM taken?

Thor has taken multiple planet busting shots.

How many stars has MM been inside?

Thor has been inside the Sun and in the fires of Muspelheim which burn hotter.

oh, btw, Thor has Quicksilver level superspeed. It was a long time ago, back in JiM.... #95 or so but Thor once ran across Central Park in seconds... His current level of super strength gives him that level of speed alone.

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
how many skyfathers has MM stalemated?

Thor stalemated Zeus for months on ancient Olympus.

how many Cosmic Abstracts has MM taken shots from?

Thor has fought Celestials twice (and lost put out more power than MM has ever shown).

How many planet busting shots has MM taken?

Thor has taken multiple planet busting shots.

How many stars has MM been inside?

Thor has been inside the Sun and in the fires of Muspelheim which burn hotter.

oh, btw, Thor has Quicksilver level superspeed. It was a long time ago, back in JiM.... #95 or so but Thor once ran across Central Park in seconds... His current level of super strength gives him that level of speed alone.
MM has taken shots from the likes of a quantum zealot. They trump ANY one thor has taken a shot from.

All the other examples pale in comparison to power like that. Also when Thor can hit a brick like SBP then he's did something spectacular. MM punched the shit out of SBP. SO I'd say your vastly under estimating MM.

*sigh* This is sad. Thor wins 8/10

Thor has taken shots from Celestials, shots which killed Odin in the Destroyer armor with all the lifeforce and godessene of the other Asgardians.

MM has never taken damage like that.

Mm fought off leagues of Angels, in heaven no less, when Asmodel took it over.

Quantum Zealot.......Doesn't trump the Celestial barrage Nvrhdcle

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Thor has taken shots from Celestials, shots which killed Odin in the Destroyer armor with all the lifeforce and godessene of the other Asgardians.

MM has never taken damage like that.

And you dont' find it odd that Thor can take Dmg like that? and then turn around and get his ass kicked by the hulk? and Thanos? and Gladiator. By the way, gladiator was kickign thor's ass at the same time as wonderman on different sides of the planet. So let's not go all extreme with things that make no sense. There really isn't any thing Thor can do to MM. But MM can just mind rape for the win. Or he can use his TP to dumb thor down, slow his reaction time down, make him forget his battle skills and beat him down. Thor's saving grace is his hammer. The hammer gets him 4/10 wins.

Originally posted by UniOmni
Mm fought off leagues of Angels, in heaven no less, when Asmodel took it over.

Quantum Zealot.......Doesn't trump the Celestial barrage Nvrhdcle

Actually in DC, the Quantum Zealots where like a race of Big G"s. they were the First beings in the universe. Having the power of Gods. WHen the last one got angry, his power was destroying huge chunks of the ship that was like the size of multiple galaxies. So yeah, the Quantum zealots were bad ass. the angels are also a good feat. And dont' be an *******. You dont' have to call me out of my screen name.

I never said Thor would be chumped.

I just took supreme offense, to the belief that someone who's as physically powerful, with much better speed, and smarter too, would lose 7-8/10.

Thats what i took offense too.

Especially since Thor isn't that uber in comics.

Sorry to bust anyones bubble, but Marvel caters to their streets and midtiers.

The top tiers over there, job to them. Alot.

Originally posted by Psyquis52
*sigh* This is sad. Thor wins 8/10
What's sad is thinking Thor wins 80% of the time.

If I were to believe the Thor supporters in here, I'd think he was taking on Celestials everyday of the week.

Thor has resisted Moondragon with the Mindgem and the Rigelian colonizers (they can mindrape whole planets) and Thanos.

And no I don't find it odd that Thor can do things like that when he does not hold back.

Thor holds back all the time. He is canonically 10 times stronger than depicted normally. And Thor holds back over that. Thor overpowered Drax with the Powergem.

If Thor does not hold back he can win the fight in less than a minute he could just life drain MM or generate a solar flare or summon Surtur or any number of ridiculous things.

What would MM do if Thor turned all the air around him to antimatter (thor has turned air into antimatter before) or simply teleports both of them to the dimension of death (you know Marvel Deaths realm). Thor has special protection being a god. MM does not.

What if Thor teleports both of them inside the sun to continue the fight?

Who knows. My point is that Thor has tons of options to win this fight and MM has very few.

Originally posted by Validus
What's sad is thinking Thor wins 80% of the time.

If I were to believe the Thor supporters in here, I'd think he was taking on Celestials everyday of the week. You mean, he isn't?

I'll say Thor 6/10.

Originally posted by Validus
What's sad is thinking Thor wins 80% of the time.

If I were to believe the Thor supporters in here, I'd think he was taking on Celestials everyday of the week. Well that's certainly not true.

I won't defend myself. It's all a matter of perspective. I was not, however, misguided by anyone here.

I listen to the arguements in favor of MM however, but I don't need to hear anybody else say anything good about Thor.

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Thor has resisted Moondragon with the Mindgem and the Rigelian colonizers (they can mindrape whole planets) and Thanos.

And no I don't find it odd that Thor can do things like that when he does not hold back.

Thor holds back all the time. He is canonically 10 times stronger than depicted normally. And Thor holds back over that. Thor overpowered Drax with the Powergem.

If Thor does not hold back he can win the fight in less than a minute he could just life drain MM or generate a solar flare or summon Surtur or any number of ridiculous things.

What would MM do if Thor turned all the air around him to antimatter (thor has turned air into antimatter before) or simply teleports both of them to the dimension of death (you know Marvel Deaths realm). Thor has special protection being a god. MM does not.

What if Thor teleports both of them inside the sun to continue the fight?

Who knows. My point is that Thor has tons of options to win this fight and MM has very few.

You sir are rediculous. your worse than I am with WW. First of all. Thor can't Teleport something he can't see or touch. MM can go invisible and intangible. And what exactly is anti-matter going to do to a being who's out of sinc with reality. Hell MM fought anti matter beings way back in crisis. Thor's Antimatter won't be a problem. And The sun isn't going to hurt Mm. Sorry dude. Phasing takes care of that. And MM hasn't died yet. He for all intents is alread over a million years old and was alive in DC 1million. He's got Thor faded on experience. Thor has also been mind controlled before. ANd MM is one of DC's premier Telepaths. Probably just under Universo and Saturn Girl. So Even If thor resist him it will take his will power and concentration to do so. You dont' want to lose any concentration while fighting a being who is as strong as you are, faster, and with complete control over thier molecular structure.

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
Thor has resisted Moondragon with the Mindgem and the Rigelian colonizers (they can mindrape whole planets) and Thanos.

And no I don't find it odd that Thor can do things like that when he does not hold back.

Thor holds back all the time. He is canonically 10 times stronger than depicted normally. And Thor holds back over that. Thor overpowered Drax with the Powergem.

If Thor does not hold back he can win the fight in less than a minute he could just life drain MM or generate a solar flare or summon Surtur or any number of ridiculous things.

What would MM do if Thor turned all the air around him to antimatter (thor has turned air into antimatter before) or simply teleports both of them to the dimension of death (you know Marvel Deaths realm). Thor has special protection being a god. MM does not.

What if Thor teleports both of them inside the sun to continue the fight?

Who knows. My point is that Thor has tons of options to win this fight and MM has very few.

This is why i hate debating against Thor at times.

He has a list of one time powers, that under the rules of this board, are all fair game.

Its like moving a mountain with a spoon.

I give up, Thor wins 10/10.

All due to reasons stated above.

Though, how many of these powers have been used since 95, we'll never know.

Originally posted by UniOmni
This is why i hate debating against Thor at times.

He has a list of one time powers, that under the rules of this board, are all fair game.

Its like moving a mountain with a spoon.

I give up, Thor wins 10/10.

All due to reasons stated above.

Though, how many of these powers have been used since 95, we'll never know.
Vs forum sucks. I come here for entertainment but all the real discussion is in the general comics forum.

Thor can teleport anything that he can whirl Mjollnir about.

You are aware that Thor can perceive Through dimensions?

Thor can also phase. What is MM going to do to a phase Thor? Nothing, but Thor has magical attacks.

I am ridiculous?

Where are MMs years of uber feats?

Thor has appeared in probably somewhere over 2000 comicbooks. Probably more.

Btw, Thor is also millions of years old. He does not remember much of it as classic Thor due to the manipulations of TWSAIS though.

Thor does not have to spend all his willpower and concentration to do so. He just ignores many uber telepaths.

Let's see who effortlessly mind controlled Thor before....
...ummm.
...ummm.....

the Goddess, you know the being with 18 BLOODY COSMIC CUBES!!!!!

There are beings who clearly beat Thor (Darkseid, Thanos, etc) or whom he will break even with (Orion for example). MM is not in that class.

Originally posted by Validus
Vs forum sucks.
Thank you!

Originally posted by Validus
Vs forum sucks. I come here for entertainment but all the real discussion is in the general comics forum. Even though we disagreed this time I agree with you 100% on this.

Originally posted by Accel
Thank you!
Hey, I think the rest of that post was relevant too.

disgust

IT's really easy, every op controls the rules of the match. All you have to do is list that no one can use a power in a match that they haven't used at least 2 times. or 3 times or what ever. that pretty much kaboshes Thor from 80% of his victories. And Superman looses that God aweful T-vo power.

Originally posted by Validus
Hey, I think the rest of that post was relevant too.

disgust
Personally, I don't contribute much discussion in the comics forum. I also don't get as much joy out watching debates any more around here a I used to.

Lately, most of my free computer time as been dedicated to watching subbed episodes of One Piece on you tube for my entertainment.

Originally posted by Accel
Personally, I don't contribute much discussion in the comics forum. I also don't get as much joy out watching debates any more around here a I used to.

Lately, most of my free computer time as been dedicated to watching subbed episodes of One Piece on you tube for my entertainment.
I find myself doing similar things though I've never seen One Piece.

Originally posted by Accel
Personally, I don't contribute much discussion in the comics forum. I also don't get as much joy out watching debates any more around here a I used to.

Lately, most of my free computer time as been dedicated to watching subbed episodes of One Piece on you tube for my entertainment.
Youtube ftw. I've been watching a lot of K1 fights on there lately.

Originally posted by Validus
What's sad is thinking Thor wins 80% of the time.

If I were to believe the Thor supporters in here, I'd think he was taking on Celestials everyday of the week.

if i were to believe green lantern supporters around here, i'd think they were making hundreds of uber powered GL copies and containing big bangs everyday of the week.

some characters just don't work well under KMC perimeters.

To hell with feats, based on characters abilities, Ill have to hand it to MM on a very slight majority. Strength isnt a deciding factor on battles, being versatile is, and well as are a varsatility goes, MM has almost everyone beat.

MM 6/10

Thor wins this battle easy. What can MM do to him?

Everyone EXCEPT Thor. As another poster stated, Thor has almost as many bizarre one time use abilities as pre-crisis superman does.

In terms of strength, he's essentially unlimited. In terms of speed, he's been shown going 3x light speed under his own power. He's taken out intangible beings before (vision) and was able to restructure his OWN molecules when shadowcat phased him into concrete. He's beaten surfer on more than one occasion, and surfer >> manhunter in nearly EVERY respect. He can teleport anywhere in the universe and has fought INSIDE the sun and in muspelheim, which very well may be hotter. Isn't the manhunter still vulnerable to fire? Teleport to muspelheim- game over for MM.

I'll give him a few showings, but more likely than not, it's Thor, 7/10

Originally posted by UniOmni
See, the problem with people who rely on feats alone, is that they negate their own argument in the long run.

Jesse7 said that Thanos couldn't be as strong, if not stronger than Superman, since he doesn't have lifting feats that outdo Superman.

You say the same in regard to Thor and MM.

MM doesn't have the pure lifting feats that Thor does. So what?

Darkseid hasn't lifted squat, but we know he's above the top tier in strength.

Same for DD. And Thanos.

I can see who MMs beaten, who i'd put on the level or above Thor.
Thor might be a hair stronger than MM.

But it won't be like Hulk vs Wonder Girl.

They're peers, if not equals.

And frankly, thats me being generous, since in all honesty, DC on average plays on a larger scope than Marvel does, currently.

Marvel, big punches = characters knocked a mile or two.

DC big punches = characters knocked off planet, or around the world.

MM has shown he can beat people on Thors level.

Ultraman, Etrigan, Supergirl(didn't beat her, but he bloodied her with one hit, and her durability> Thors) Sbp(didn't beat him, but knocked him for a loop) and more.

Or above it, depending on who you ask.

And don't get me started on the absurdness that is Thors speed.

He has the edge in travel speed. Thats it.

MM thinks faster, reacts faster, and is smarter.

And J'onn doesn't have to take punches.

Thats the beauty of being a premier shape/mass changer, and premier phaser.
He can literally roll with the punches.

Ulik and Durok hurt Thor, but someone who's likely stronger and much faster won't?

Ha!

And the best thing about Thorbags, is that the best stuff happened when he was in a beserker rage, and everything else is over a decade old!

Haha!

I'm not Jesse whoever and as I stated before, we can compare lifting and battle feats and Thor will still trump MM.

Although lifting feats are a good tool to measure strength, I stated we could use battle feats to. It's simple, Thor's battle and Strength feats trump MM's.

Thor's beaten characters way above MM's lv, in fact more times than the other way around.

They may be peers, but there no equals. As stated, Thor's battle and lifting feats blow MM's out of the water.

Good point, but it means nothing in this debate.

Thor's been shown to beat or stalemate characters way above MM. Silver Surfer, Mangog, Drax with the PG, BRB, Captain Marvel, Galactus, etc. These may not be his normal every day showings, but they are fairly common.

Supergirl's durability being greater than Thor's is debatable.

Um Thor can also swing ad Through Mjolnir at light speeds, faster than even MM's traveling speed.

He may be able to roll with the punches, but I'm positive he can't roll with being BFR'd or being hit with a godblast.

Durok and Ulik could probably give MM a run for his money, especially Durok.

Your right though, besides Ragnarok Thor hasn't done anything impressive outside of battles in the last decade or so.

Originally posted by manorastroman
if i were to believe green lantern supporters around here, i'd think they were making hundreds of uber powered GL copies and containing big bangs everyday of the week.

some characters just don't work well under KMC perimeters.
LOL. You're flat out lying. Nobody ever debates for GL using top feats only unless some other moron in the opposition tries it. Personally I think debating who has the most powerful ultimate attack is pretty ghey (yes, ghey).

Originally posted by Validus
LOL. You're flat out lying.

bump

bump

Thor. I get that MM is supposed to be a real powerhouse when he's written well, but it seems he never is.

The first page of this is littered with account restricted...

Thor creates chocoballs? (don't remember MM's addict food not a big follower). MM becomes helpless to resist. Or Ollie's chili that was so recently posted on the ownage thread.

Originally posted by Uriel005
Thor creates chocoballs? (don't remember MM's addict food not a big follower). MM becomes helpless to resist. Or Ollie's chili that was so recently posted on the ownage thread.

chocoballs? i thought it was just oreos!

Manhunter is oreos, and he's not as addicted anymore.

Originally posted by hunbu04
like hell is thor 3xspeed of light
according to thor profile his top speed without help is 115mph so stop making up facts


Please where did you get this 115 miles per hour imformation.,


Btw thor destroys MM. ANd to the folks that think MM is strong then captian marvel i would just like to say ROFL.

If MM plays it smart, he can win. Or he can morph into a more powerful being to take him down physically.

some of the reasoning and comparisons in this thread were HILARIOUS. mm is definitely capable of winning some here, but i'd take thor for a majority. mm IS in his strength class, but thor is the stronger of the 2. it's not a big enough difference to be deciding by any stretch though. biggest difference is durability imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
some of the reasoning and comparisons in this thread were HILARIOUS. mm is definitely capable of winning some here, but i'd take thor for a majority. mm IS in his strength class, but thor is the stronger of the 2. it's not a big enough difference to be deciding by any stretch though. biggest difference is durability imo.

Well, MM no sold Apollo's punch and morphed into something to own hin quite easily. It's not the first time MM can amp his strength, though. He did absorb part of the planet to amp his stats.

if you're talking about current post reboot mm, i've only followed the first issue. i was talking about classic. current may be more powerful, i don't know....

i cant see MM beating thor, thor is way to versital even more so then man hunter, and as far as feats go they topple MM's. MM can do well against types like captian marvel and ba due to the fact that they are one dimensional bricks. He may make it a good fight but i do not consider MM a high end herald like thor. thor is physically stronger defenitly mor durable, and is highly resistant to mind attacks that somebody like mm would dish out, as far as intangability goes thor has delt with that issue before.

He has the power to be a high end herald. He's even taken it to the JLA.

Potential is one thing, but actually reaching it is another, and J'onn hasn't reached his imo.

He's a mid herald for me.

Originally posted by zeel
i cant see MM beating thor, thor is way to versital even more so then man hunter, and as far as feats go they topple MM's. MM can do well against types like captian marvel and ba due to the fact that they are one dimensional bricks. He may make it a good fight but i do not consider MM a high end herald like thor. thor is physically stronger defenitly mor durable, and is highly resistant to mind attacks that somebody like mm would dish out, as far as intangability goes thor has delt with that issue before. Loki is better than MM in a lot of his abilities IMO and we all know how those fights usually turn out.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Potential is one thing, but actually reaching it is another, and J'onn hasn't reached his imo.

He's a mid herald for me.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Potential is one thing, but actually reaching it is another, and J'onn hasn't reached his imo.

He's a mid herald for me.

I don't know, he has some high feats in Ostrander's run.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
I don't know, he has some high feats in Ostrander's run.



Recently in Stormwatch, he didn't look too much above Mid Herald though. Thor also has some wtf crazy feats too. MM's molecular powers could be a problem for Thor though.



Thor ftw 6-7/10

Apollo was classified as Superman level. Because Stormwatch needed a Superman level being on their team. MM no sold his punch, then morphed into something a lot bigger and physically powerful than Apollo.

I'm towards MM here.

MM would win a lot more often, of he remembered he could go invisible....

You mean intangible? Most of Thor's attacks won't work, since he phases into another dimension.

Also, it's not really MM's physical might that will win him the fight. It's his telepathic powers. He did stop Spectre and a god once, so I doubt he'll have troubles with Thor.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
You mean intangible? Most of Thor's attacks won't work, since he phases into another dimension.

Also, it's not really MM's physical might that will win him the fight. It's his telepathic powers. He did stop Spectre and a god once, so I doubt he'll have troubles with Thor.

No, invisible. He's gone invisible lots of times, and used other powers at the same time like intangibility.

Knocked out Weird in two attacks that way, but he rarely performs attacks in an invisible state. His fight against World War III Black Adam would have been a whole different ball game if Adam couldn't see him.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
You mean intangible? Most of Thor's attacks won't work, since he phases into another dimension.

Also, it's not really MM's physical might that will win him the fight. It's his telepathic powers. He did stop Spectre and a god once, so I doubt he'll have troubles with Thor.

Nah, he'd have loads of trouble, the Spectre was nailed by Batman, so his powers are highly irregular. Thor's mind can be as tricky as the Hulk's when he's determined and pissed, so TP is not a for sure victory. Thor on the other hand can truly make him disappear into another dimension.

I don't think that Thor would crush the life out of him, or steam roll MM, but I do think that he would win convincingly enough to give him a 6-7/10 victory.

Ostrander MM is a different beast from the usual MM, and would make for the best fight against Thor imo..

He was using his shape shifting powers to absorb metals and armor up, change his size, create shields that could block Apokolips swords that could normally cut him, even if he's intangible, create a third arm to increase his offensive power.. He even made stabbing weapons that went clean through Etrigan the Demons chest, and Etrigan is pretty durable.

Originally posted by Stoic
Nah, he'd have loads of trouble, the Spectre was nailed by Batman, so his powers are highly irregular. Thor's mind can be as tricky as the Hulk's when he's determined and pissed, so TP is not a for sure victory. Thor on the other hand can truly make him disappear into another dimension.

I don't think that Thor would crush the life out of him, or steam roll MM, but I do think that he would win convincingly enough to give him a 6-7/10 victory.

MM has rendered Joker's brain sane in Morrison's JLA and his brain was probably a lot more complex than Thor's. Thor has been taken down by tp attacks before.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
He has the power to be a high end herald. He's even taken it to the JLA.

I agree.


but hes still not beating thor for a majority.

I see a toss up, personally. If it's Ostrander's MM, than MM.

Let's not kid ourselves here, Thor wins. John's telepathy is his only hope.

John was more effective during Ostranders run than he is anywhere else most of the time but I'm not sure why anyone would want to bring up high end versions if they're a fan of the Manhunter.

MM wins some, but yeah, he has no hope barring his TP.