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Since this isn't a "character 'a' fights character 'b' thread" it's not in the "vs." forum.

It's about Magog being demonized by while Speedball is defended by some people.


Magog
Led a superhero team to take on a supervillian.

Speedball
Led a superhero team to take on supervillians.


Magog
Had his team attack in the middle of empty farmland.

Speedball
Had his team attack in a residential neighborhood.


Magog
Things went wrong in the battle which led to an explosion killing a million innocent people and irradiating all of Kansas and some of the surrounding states.

Speedball
Things went wrong in the battle which led to an explosion killing hundreds of people and destroying a neighborhood.


Magog
Believes that his actions cotributed to the desaster, and feels remorse for his part in what happened.

Speedball
Doesn't believe that his actions contributed to the desaster, and feels no remorse for his part in what happened.



Shall I go on...?

This is why you should never admit guilt ... see what happens? ...



However, Speedball's team had no idea that Nitro had been upgraded, while it was one of Magog's team mates who actually exploded and Mags should have known his teams capabilities and possible threats before ever going out in the field.

They are both assholes

But, I have to say at least Magog showed some compassion for the victims of his mistake

Speedball doesn't even give a crap

He does give a crap ... it just wasn't his fault

Originally posted by Scoobless
He does give a crap ... it just wasn't his fault

Walking around in a presumptuous ******* doesn't exactly show his sympathy now does it?

Originally posted by Grimm22
Walking around in a presumptuous ******* doesn't exactly show his sympathy now does it?

Over a million>>>>>>>>>2000 dead.

Sorry or not, the loss of life speaks for itself.
Speedball shouldn't let himself be scape-goated for the entire thing, hes doing the right thing in my opinion. He's admited hes sorry but he shouldnt talk all the blame.

He can be sympathetic while also not letting people pin over a thousand deaths on him.

I'm glad that he's sticking up for himself when, clearly, no one else will.

There needs to be a voice like his in that type of a situation, to be honest. Showing that Heroes can't control the world, and the nuts in it.

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
There needs to be a voice like his in that type of a situation, to be honest. Showing that Heroes can't control the world, and the nuts in it. But they can control the world. And if the situation with the superheroes in the MU had continued unchecked, the world would have ended up like DC's Kingdom Come Earth. Superteams running rampant across the globe. No accountability whatsoever. After all, they're the "heroes," the "good guys;" what do they need to be accountable for?

The superpowered population continued to grow unabated. each generation producing more and more. The fights raged across the streets. Sometimes innocent people would die, but it's not like that was the intention so what does it matter?

If Speedball is innocent of any wrongdoing, then so is Magog. If Magog is guilty of any wrongdoing, then so is Speedball.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
If Speedball is innocent of any wrongdoing, then so is Magog. If Magog is guilty of any wrongdoing, then so is Speedball.

Not true, the situations were completely different.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Not true, the situations were completely different. Yes, you're right. Magog led his team in a battle in the middle of an empty field, Speedball led his team into a battle next door to a school.

But in all the ways that matter, the situations were the same.

Originally posted by Scoobless
He does give a crap ... it just wasn't his fault
He DOES give a crap? Really? Well he has a hell of a way conveying his condolences to the public. As for whether it was his fault...it was partly his fault. But he refuses to take responsiblitiy for his part. At least Magog was man enough to do that.

Originally posted by Scoobless
He can be sympathetic while also not letting people pin over a thousand deaths on him.

I'm glad that he's sticking up for himself when, clearly, no one else will. But he's NOT being sympathetic. Not in any way, shape, or form. As for no one esle sticking up for him, what the heck do you think Cap and the anti-regs are doing? For that matter, what the heck do you think YOU are doing?

Originally posted by "V"
Over a million>>>>>>>>>2000 dead.

Sorry or not, the loss of life speaks for itself.
Speedball shouldn't let himself be scape-goated for the entire thing, hes doing the right thing in my opinion. He's admited hes sorry but he shouldnt talk all the blame. They don't want him as a scapegoat for the entire thing, merely to own up to his part in what happened.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Yes, you're right. Magog led his team in a battle in the middle of an empty field, Speedball led his team into a battle next door to a school.

But in all the ways that matter, the situations were the same.

No they weren't.

It's the difference between walking into a fight with an unstable nuclear weapon adn walking into a fight only to be surprised that the other guy has an unstable nuclear weapon.

Magog knew his team mate was dangerous and sent him against someone who could set him off, so to speak.

No-one knew that Nitro was capable of what he did.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
But they can control the world.

No, they can't. They're not the JLA or the Gestapo. They're not supposed to do anything of the sort. If they did, the entire world would rise up against them, and end up like The Reign of Thor. To even suggest that is a sick idea.

Originally posted by Scoobless
No they weren't.

It's the difference between walking into a fight with an unstable nuclear weapon adn walking into a fight only to be surprised that the other guy has an unstable nuclear weapon.

Magog knew his team mate was dangerous and sent him against someone who could set him off, so to speak.

No-one knew that Nitro was capable of what he did.

1) How many hundreds (if not thousands) of missions have Captain Atom safely participated in without incident?

2) Oh, so since he normally explodes only a "little bit" it's okay to engage him next to a crowded schoolyard, and slam him into a school bus?

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
He DOES give a crap? Really? Well he has a hell of a way conveying his condolences to the public. As for whether it was his fault...it was partly his fault. But he refuses to take responsiblitiy for his part. At least Magog was man enough to do that.

and how the hell were they supposed to know how powerful Nitro was? There aren't any psychics on the New Warriors!

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
No, they can't. They're not the JLA or the Gestapo. They're not supposed to do anything of the sort. If they did, the entire world would rise up against them, and end up like The Reign of Thor. To even suggest that is a sick idea. You don't get it do you? The SHRA is the rising up against the changes to the world that were slowly happening.

You said that superheroes could not change the world, yet they did in Kingdom Come, the Sentry has done it himself, and so has the Scarlet Witch.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
You don't get it do you? The SHRA is the rising up against the changes to the world that were slowly happening.

You said that superheroes could not change the world, yet they did in Kingdom Come, the Sentry has done it himself, and so has the Scarlet Witch.

Not in a positive manner. Wanda destroyed the lives of about everyone she touched. Sentry took the memories of many people without permission or need to do so.

Also, this isn't DC. This is Marvel. That type of crap doesn't go down. Hereos aren't uber-powered tyrants. They're real people that try to make the world better, but not control it.

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
and how the hell were they supposed to know how powerful Nitro was? There aren't any psychics on the New Warriors! They made the arbitrary decision to engage in a superpowered battle next door to a crowded school yard. Regardless of knowing how big an explosion Nitro could produce, they fought him and slammed him into the side of a school bus...well guess what, "exploding guy" + school bus full of kids = a bad thing.

He could easily have exploded next to the gas tank and set it off, killing dozens of kids instead of hundreds.

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
Not in a positive manner. Wanda destroyed the lives of about everyone she touched. Sentry took the memories of many people without permission or need to do so.

Well that's the point isn't it. You argued that "heroes" don't have the power to change the world, and I gave you examples that they do.

Originally posted by Howard_Jones
Also, this isn't DC. This is Marvel. That type of crap doesn't go down. Hereos aren't uber-powered tyrants. They're real people that try to make the world better, but not control it. Yes, because Superman, Wonderwoman, and the rest of the JLA have proved time and again that they are "uber-powered tyrants" and not "people that try to make the world better". They're always fighting to assert their dominance over the planet.

The public has stated that they no longer want the help of unregistered heroes. For unregistered heroes to continue to force their help on a population that does want their help makes them no better than when Thor tried to rule the planet. Life is free will. Freedom to even refuse help from a stranger if you choose. Now stop changing the subject and get back on the topic of Speedball and Magog.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Well that's the point isn't it. You argued that "heroes" don't have the power to change the world, and I gave you examples that they do.
I said change the world for the better. You said control it. Those are not changes that better the world.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Yes, because Superman, Wonderwoman, and the rest of the JLA have proved time and again that they are "uber-powered tyrants" and not "people that try to make the world better". They're always fighting to assert their dominance over the planet.
They've been called tyrants on more than one occasion. I'm merely stating the obvious. They got a backlash from that during Infinite Crisis.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
The public has stated that they no longer want the help of unregistered heroes. For unregistered heroes to continue to force their help on a population that does want their help makes them no better than when Thor tried to rule the planet. Life is free will. Freedom to even refuse help from a stranger if you choose. Now stop changing the subject and get back on the topic of Speedball and Magog.

This is part of the topic, whether you realize it or not. You said they can control the world. I'm saying they can't and won't. Read the observations of the DCU by Marvel characters, and tell me that they don't see it as surreal and unrealistic. They controlled that planet until the people told them they didn't want their help anymore. Also, look at the references to DC heroes in Kingdom Come, calling them gods. You can't deny that they are seen as such.

In the Marvel Universe, it's different. Heroes know it's morally wrong to have that much pull. Also, if you read Civil War, you'll see that the people are divided over the issue.

Yes Speedball and Magog are just as responsable, though clearly under differant circumstances and contexts.

However. They are only as responsable for the outcomes of their conflicts as EVERY other hero is for the potential negative concequences of any fight they got in.

You need to stop looking at the comic world and its legal/moral issues from the light of a person who lives in the real world.

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Life is free will. Freedom to even refuse help from a stranger if you choose.

this isnt really on the same topic, but i figured I'd sort of answer this.

This is false. I have no capability to refuse the outside "help" of the government or police in many circumstances. True, if i loose my dog I can refuse their help, but trust me, there are a HUGE variety of instances where the "help" directive overrides the "freedom" directive.

oh, i can also scientifically proove that "free will" doesn't exist, but thats another topic altogeather

Originally posted by BlaqChaos
2) Oh, so since he normally explodes only a "little bit" it's okay to engage him next to a crowded schoolyard, and slam him into a school bus?

Speedball had nothing to do with fighting Nitro near the school ... that was Namorita's fault for letting him get that far ahead (which he shouldn't have been able to do given her speed)

The fact that he explodes at all means that conventional law enforcement is unneffective against him.... as SHIELD found out later.

Originally posted by inamilist

This is false. I have no capability to refuse the outside "help" of the government or police in many circumstances. True, if i loose my dog I can refuse their help, but trust me, there are a HUGE variety of instances where the "help" directive overrides the "freedom" directive.

oh, i can also scientifically proove that "free will" doesn't exist, but thats another topic altogeather

Yes thank you!!!!!!!!! thank you!!!

Originally posted by inamilist
oh, i can also scientifically proove that "free will" doesn't exist, but thats another topic altogeather

Originally posted by Scoobless
Speedball had nothing to do with fighting Nitro near the school ... that was Namorita's fault for letting him get that far ahead (which he shouldn't have been able to do given her speed)

The fact that he explodes at all means that conventional law enforcement is unneffective against him.... as SHIELD found out later. Agreed....I don't blame Speedball in the slightest; it was Namorita's fault. In fact, I applaud him for sticking up for himself.

Namorita's fault?!?

What, she was supposed to let the murderous villain continue running towards the school ground full of children where he most likely would've taken a hostage?

Originally posted by Lucid Lui
Namorita's fault?!?

What, she was supposed to let the murderous villain continue running towards the school ground full of children where he most likely would've taken a hostage? No, but instead of slamming him into a bus how about you just take him out...Her inaction is what caused the destruction; simple as that. Plus the fact that she was basically taunting him instead of just taking him out...

Originally posted by inamilist
oh, i can also scientifically proove that "free will" doesn't exist, but thats another topic altogeather


So you can choose to tell us this proof?

'Speedball isn't paying for it'

My ass , have you SEEN his new costume. The mans torturing himself !

Originally posted by grey fox
'Speedball isn't paying for it'

My ass , have you SEEN his new costume. The mans torturing himself !

He looks like a crappy silent hill monster that didn't make the cut.

Yeah, Speedball is finally admitting his mistakes

Where all Magog did was blame Superman