Who Is a Christian?

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Adam_PoE
In the United States, there are over 1,500 denominations, organizations, and non-denominational groups that identify as Christian.

Suppose one is given a description of each of the over 1,500 groups who identify as Christian, and is then asked to sort them into those groups that are truly Christian and those that are not.

Some will consider all of the groups to be Christian, some will consider only one of the groups to be Christian, and others will consider some of the groups to be Christian and not others.

This begs the question, "Who is a Christian?"

Lord Urizen
Anyone who calls themself a Christian is...

Shakyamunison
Anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus and believes in his divinity.

debbiejo
Well it's not anyone who believes in Jesus per say, but those who follow Christ. I believe many call themselves Christian just because it's the right thing to do in this country. Otherwise you're looked at much differently and lost. This is probably because many feel this country was based on Christianity, well, I guess it was.........

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by debbiejo
Well it's not anyone who believes in Jesus per say, but those who follow Christ. I believe many call themselves Christian just because it's the right thing to do in this country. Otherwise you're looked at much differently and lost. This is probably because many feel this country was based on Christianity, well, I guess it was.........


It doesn't matter if they are sincere or not. Anyone who identifies as a Christian, IS...end of story.


There are "good" Christians, there are "bad" Christians, and there are those in-between.

There are Christians who study the Bible, and there are Christians who never touched it....

debbiejo
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It doesn't matter if they are sincere or not. Anyone who identifies as a Christian, IS...end of story.


There are "good" Christians, there are "bad" Christians, and there are those in-between.

There are Christians who study the Bible, and there are Christians who never touched it.... Well that would include most of the country then. Even those in name only..this is what I meant also. It's just a title that seems to sway others that they are honest, which is such a lie when you get down to it when the chips are down, they can become seething lower than the lowest of people!!

not everyone btw, but hey, try telling one of them that you have changed your view, and you're treated like you have the plague.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Anyone who calls themself a Christian is...

Members of the Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity claim to be Christian, but few would agree.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Anyone who follows the teachings of Jesus and believes in his divinity.

Unitarians do not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Members of the Holy Spirit Association for the Unification of World Christianity claim to be Christian, but few would agree.


So what ?


Christianity is JUST a beleif system....a religion...nothing more. There's no such thing as a "True Christian". Being a Christian is not something earned, it's something chosen.


I understand that Christians FAIL to recognize something called Diversity, but just like there are people of many different races, sexual orientations, etc. there are also many different types of Christians.

debbiejo
People that don't believe in the divinity are usually called "Cult" members.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by debbiejo
Well it's not anyone who believes in Jesus per say, but those who follow Christ. I believe many call themselves Christian just because it's the right thing to do in this country. Otherwise you're looked at much differently and lost. This is probably because many feel this country was based on Christianity, well, I guess it was.........

According to recent research data, approximately 70% of Americans identify as Christian, but fewer than 20% attend church services.

debbiejo
I believe a better word for followers of Jesus would be Jesusians........They follow only his teachings and put in the right perspective of that time........I do.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
According to recent research data, approximately 70% of Americans identify as Christian, but fewer than 20% attend church services. that is very much true! But to say that you are not a christian leaves people to not trust you as much as someone who says that they are. There are people THAT NEVER attend a service that call themselves christian. They don't even know the teachings of the bible. It's like a click or something.

Gregory
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
According to recent research data, approximately 70% of Americans identify as Christian, but fewer than 20% attend church services.

And?

If you say you're a Christian, you're a Christian. Maybe not a particularly goood one, but that's a different question.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
. . . There's no such thing as a "True Christian" . . . I understand that Christians FAIL to recognize something called Diversity, but just like there are people of many different races, sexual orientations, etc. there are also many different types of Christians.

That is what is being debated in this thread.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Gregory
And?

If you say you're a Christian, you're a Christian. Maybe not a particularly goood one, but that's a different question. No, it's just a "Look at me" club. Trust me, and take my word for everything, I'll never do you wrong thing.

Gregory
I don't trust you in much. No offense intended.

If I stop going to my classes, I'm still a student, unless the University administration--the only people with the authority to determine who is a student there--kicks me out. If I stop going to my job, I'm still an employee there, until my boss--the only person with the authority to determine who works there--fires me. And if I stop going to church? If anybody has the authority to excommunicate me from the Christian religion, it isn't you.

debbiejo
SDA's are not considered christian because they also follow the works of Ellen White. Mormons are not considered it either because they have other writings also..........A christian only is supposed to follow the bible and that alone. NO new prophecies, using the words "God changes not"..so why would he ie...god need any new words for today....Churches that use other books like even Scientology are considered cults cause they have what they call prophets...funny though cause Pentecost always has prophesying in their services.

Me?? Why.

Gregory
Your terms. You don't consider SDAs Christian. You don't consider Mormons Christians. You think that Christians can only follow "The Bible" (whatever that means; so which group is non-Christian, Catholics or Protestants? They have different holy texts, after all...).

But you are wrong on all counts, I would say.

And it's because I rarely agree with your opinions.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Gregory
And?

If you say you're a Christian, you're a Christian. Maybe not a particularly goood one, but that's a different question.

"You know, you can call a shovel an ice-cream machine, but it's still a shovel, Mom and Dad. Uh, and you can call a lie whatever you want, but it's still a no-good stinkin' lie!"

debbiejo
Originally posted by Gregory
Your terms. You don't consider SDAs Christian. You don't consider Mormons Christians. You think that Christians can only follow "The Bible" (whatever that means; so which group is nonChristian, Catholics or Protestants).

But you are wrong on all counts; repetition is not an adaquit substitution for truth. I'm only telling you how the larger more accepted groups feel about these other groups. This is not my view, it comes from the more accepted views/denominations..

Gregory
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
"You know, you can call a shovel an ice-cream machine, but it's still a shovel, Mom and Dad. Uh, and you can call a lie whatever you want, but it's still a no-good stinkin' lie!"

Unless you use the shovel to serve ice-cream with, I suppose.

And the larger, more accepted groups can think what they like; I repeat that there is only one who can say with authority who is Christian and who is not, and even if it turns out he exists, he isn't talking.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Gregory
Unless you use the shovel to serve ice-cream with, I suppose.

And the larger, more accepted groups can think what they like; I repeat that there is only one who can say with authority who is Christian and who is not, and even if it turns out he exists, he isn't talking.

The contrapositive of this is if God does not exist, then there are no true Christians.

Lord Urizen
That's untrue.



Christianity is JUST a religion....once again. No God is really needed, just the beleif in one.


The "rules" of Christianity CHANGE all the TIME...the Bible has been editted and re editted throughout History, and the Church(es) have evolved over the centuries as well.


For someone to argue that they are REAL Christians, and someone else is NOT, is a flawed and non-factual argument.


I still stand behind the truth that anyone who Identifies as Christian IS ONE...

Nellinator
I wouldn't define 'true' Christians by their denomination. I look at each individual and it should be apparent in the way they live and a few key beliefs:
1) Belief in God
2) Jesus as the son of God and accepted as Savior
3) Loving other people
4) That Jesus died and rose again
5) Belief in the Bible as the Word of God

I see those five as essential. If you don't live by the first four the Bible makes it perfectly clear that you will not receive salvation.

-hh-
it's understandable that there are so many different denominations of Christianity, but that is because human personality comes into play. the ceremonies might be different, and some of the teachings might be taught differently (i honestly dont know about the minor denominations) but the message (if truely Christian) should be the same.

I am Apostolic Armenian Christian, and i could care less what the next man believes in (as long as it promotes morality thumb up )

Faith is much more important than the Religion.

Gregory
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The contrapositive of this is if God does not exist, then there are no true Christians.

No. The contrapositive of this is that if God exists, there is nobody who "can say with authority who is Christian and who is not." This is true, but what authority have I pretended to? All I've done is given my opinion, albeit forcefully; I even added "I would say" to one of my comments so that nobody could claim I'm pretending that it's anything but my opinion.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The contrapositive of this is if God does not exist, then there are no true Christians. Interesting. I never thought of it in quite this term. Though there could be Jesus followers just as other followers. Someone who tries to follow in someones wise words...

peejayd
* however, there are some religious organizations that rejects the divinity of Jesus, but still claims to be Christians... you can ask mr.jury about that...

* i disagree that there are bad Christians... if they are bad, then they are not Christians because Christian follow the laws of Christ... laws of love, faith and hope...

* Christians should not have different types or kinds... Christians are blatantly described in the Bible and those not qualified in it are not Christians... wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Unitarians do not believe in the divinity of Jesus.

I know nothing about Unitarians.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In the United States, there are over 1,500 denominations, organizations, and non-denominational groups that identify as Christian.

Suppose one is given a description of each of the over 1,500 groups who identify as Christian, and is then asked to sort them into those groups that are truly Christian and those that are not.

Some will consider all of the groups to be Christian, some will consider only one of the groups to be Christian, and others will consider some of the groups to be Christian and not others.

This begs the question, "Who is a Christian?"
1500 demoninations? dayum.

debbiejo
Uni.. meaning One.........That's all I know. ...or.... A unicellular organism has only one cell.blink

Hmmm Uni + atairan. Age with Atari............One with Atari..........Is that different than game boy???

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In the United States, there are over 1,500 denominations, organizations, and non-denominational groups that identify as Christian.

Suppose one is given a description of each of the over 1,500 groups who identify as Christian, and is then asked to sort them into those groups that are truly Christian and those that are not.

Some will consider all of the groups to be Christian, some will consider only one of the groups to be Christian, and others will consider some of the groups to be Christian and not others.

This begs the question, "Who is a Christian?"

All of those who *love* Christ, express *love* to their bretheren, and follow his(Christ's) word are Christians. No denomination, nor prideful admission to one testifying themselves as being a Christian is necessary.

JaehSkywalker
I am a Christian!

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In the United States, there are over 1,500 denominations, organizations, and non-denominational groups that identify as Christian.

Suppose one is given a description of each of the over 1,500 groups who identify as Christian, and is then asked to sort them into those groups that are truly Christian and those that are not.

Some will consider all of the groups to be Christian, some will consider only one of the groups to be Christian, and others will consider some of the groups to be Christian and not others.

This begs the question, "Who is a Christian?"

I would guess, anyone who calls themselves so. I can't really see anyone has any more of authority to decide who is Christian and who is not, apart from the person themselves.

(Don't get me started on Pope!)

Gregory
Originally posted by peejayd
* i disagree that there are bad Christians... if they are bad, then they are not Christians because Christian follow the laws of Christ... laws of love, faith and hope...

So whereas Jesus says you should forgive your neighbors seven times seventy transgressions, and Paul explicitly states what action you should take towards Christians who have behaved badly, you believe that bad behaviour should result in immediate excommunication from the faith? Interesting. Love you neighbor until he starts embarassing you, I guess.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Gregory
So whereas Jesus says you should forgive your neighbors seven times seventy transgressions, and Paul explicitly states what action you should take towards Christians who have behaved badly, you believe that bad behaviour should result in immediate excommunication from the faith? Interesting. Love you neighbor until he starts embarassing you, I guess.

Well, Paul and Jesus do not agree then. Is Jesus an untrue Christian?

Gregory
Jesus wasn't a Christian at all; he was Jewish. As to whether Paul and Jesus' doctrine of forgiveness can be reconsiled ... not my problem.

Capt_Fantastic
First, as has been pointed out, but not very clearly, is the difference between Christ and Jesus. There are many who submit to the teachings of Jesus, but don't consider him "the Christ". Then there are many who believe that he is the Christ. And then there are many people who think that Christ is his last name.

Since the very basis of christianity is the belief that Jesus was the Christ, I'll assume that a true christian is one who follows the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. However, the big problem with this is that not one record of his teachings that have not been interpreted by other men who had their own agenda actually exist. So that leaves no choice but to have the majority of christians to decide upon an individual or group who has the divine authority to cherry pick those surviving gospels to represent his teachings as best they can.

Now all we need are a group of christians that can agree on what Jesus said and how he said it and we'll be half way there.

lil bitchiness
Wait wait wait...I thought Jesus' name (or one of) was Christ. Or am I way off...

Gregory
"Christ" is a title for the Messiah, not a name.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Wait wait wait...I thought Jesus' name (or one of) was Christ. Or am I way off...

Christ was a hebrew title for the foretold messiah.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Gregory
"Christ" is a title for the Messiah, not a name.

Ummm - I think it's essentially assumed(at least in most cultures) that one is speaking of Jesus when they say *Christ*, but if you really want to get technical(and anal retentive Mr. Smartypants) - you are correct. It's used in a context similar to that of the word *Buddha* (meaning "enlightened one"wink - a word many use when referring to Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of *Buddhism*(even though, technically speaking - as to not obfuscate the definition(s) any further, there are many other *Buddhas* -- see I can look smart and learned too..He..He..He).

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Ummm - I think it's essentially assumed(at least in most cultures) that one is speaking of Jesus when they say *Christ*, but if you really want to get technical(and anal retentive Mr. Smartypants) - you are correct. It's used in a context similar to that of the word *Buddha* (meaning "enlightened one"wink - a word many use when referring to Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of *Buddhism*(even though, technically speaking - as to not obfuscate the definition(s) any further, there are many other *Buddhas* -- see I can look smart and learned too..He..He..He).

Congratulations. big grin

Gregory
lil bitchiness asked, and I answered. I don't think I'm being pedantic; understanding "Christ" as a title makes the Bible read much smoother, since people keep referring to Jesus not as "Christ" but as "the Christ," and that won't make sense to anyone who understands Christ to be a name.

Not to mention all the times when people use Christ as a title in the Bible. "Many will come and say, 'I am the Christ.'" "At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it." "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ..." "Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ." "But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ." None of those passages mean anything unless you understand "Christ" as a title.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Christ was a hebrew title for the foretold messiah.
Actually, its the Greek word. The Hebrew word is Shiloh.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Nellinator
Actually, its the Greek word. The Hebrew word is Shiloh.

Actually you're distracting the topic.

Nellinator
Aren't you as well?

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Nellinator
Aren't you as well?

No. I wasn't asking the question.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Gregory
Not to mention all the times when people use Christ as a title in the Bible. "Many will come and say, 'I am the Christ.'" "At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it." "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ..." "Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ." "But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ." None of those passages mean anything unless you understand "Christ" as a title.


That's a very good point, and I happen to agree. Personally - I generally don't like to get too caught up in all of the technicalities. I've never been the most detail oriented person(probably due to the fact that I'm naturally a bit lazy).

I must say, out of all of the possible alternatives(such as saviour/savior/son of man/Jesus/Christ/messiah/etc/etc) - I believe Christ is the most recognizable - when referring to Jesus of Nazareth.
Still - remember that the names(used when referring to Christ and/or Jesus) themselves mean very little -- most of those seeking him -will know him(and be known themselves) not by what he(or they)
call(s) himself(or themselves), but by the *love* and truth he(they) project with the message.

debbiejo
Jesus never called himself the "Christ" nor the"Messiah".

OH, and you can find what Jesus taught and only what he taught in the Gospel of "Q"

A little info about it.

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=542

Gregory
Well it's a damn shame we don't have the Gospel of Q then, isn't it?

The Gospel of Q probably isn't much older then Mark; do you have a reson for preferring it, or are you just being contrary?

debbiejo
It's at the book store. I own a copy of it.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by debbiejo
It's at the book store. I own a copy of it.

I don't think it is the real book. It is just a collection of the parts that where put into the bible. There is more in the Q Gospel then we have information on.

Gregory
Read the introduction; it will probably mention that we have no copies of Q, and explain what, exactly, the book you own is.

debbiejo
I understand that, but I still own it. big grin

And it could go along with all this bible tampering history which was quite common to make Jesus the Christ which came later on.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by debbiejo
Jesus never called himself the "Christ" nor the"Messiah".


Umm..I never stated that he did, but many knew him as the *Christ* - such as his disciples(revealed specifically to them by Peter) -

Mark 8:27 - 39

27Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, "Who do people say I am?"

28They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets."

29"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Peter answered, "You are the Christ."

30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

And even if one didn't know he was the *Christ* upon witnessing Peter's testimony(or Jesus the son of the carpenter Joseph - there were many upon many other Jesus's who were carpenters - and the sons of men named Joseph during those days..He..He..) - they were still given much evidense proving it - through his works and/or miracles(of course he didn't go around parading to everyone that he was the *Christ* - seeing as how that would of kind of defeated the purpose of one having *faith* in him).

Adam_PoE

Gregory
I know what the contrapositive is, and I stated it correctly.

"I repeat that there is only one who can say with authority who is Christian and who is not "

If that being does not exist, then there are, in fact, no beings who can say with authority who is Christian and who is not.

"if God does not exist, then there are no true Christians." would be the contrapositive of, "A true Christian is one who obeys God," or something like it.

Lord Urizen

Adam_PoE
According to Nellinator, the belief that The Bible is the word of God is essential to being a Christian:

Originally posted by Nellinator
I wouldn't define 'true' Christians by their denomination. I look at each individual and it should be apparent in the way they live and a few key beliefs:
1) Belief in God
2) Jesus as the son of God and accepted as Savior
3) Loving other people
4) That Jesus died and rose again
5) Belief in the Bible as the Word of God

I see those five as essential. If you don't live by the first four the Bible makes it perfectly clear that you will not receive salvation.

According to -hh-, the belief that The Bible is the word of God is not essential to being a Christian:

Originally posted by -hh-
it's understandable that there are so many different denominations of Christianity, but that is because human personality comes into play. the ceremonies might be different, and some of the teachings might be taught differently (i honestly dont know about the minor denominations) but the message (if truely Christian) should be the same.

I am Apostolic Armenian Christian, and i could care less what the next man believes in (as long as it promotes morality thumb up )

Faith is much more important than the Religion.

Both cannot be correct.

Adam_PoE
According to Gregory, anyone who claims to be a Christian is Christian:

Originally posted by Gregory
And?

If you say you're a Christian, you're a Christian. Maybe not a particularly goood one, but that's a different question.

According to peejayd, those who claim to be Christian but do not do good works are not Christian:

Originally posted by peejayd
* however, there are some religious organizations that rejects the divinity of Jesus, but still claims to be Christians... you can ask mr.jury about that...

* i disagree that there are bad Christians... if they are bad, then they are not Christians because Christian follow the laws of Christ... laws of love, faith and hope...

* Christians should not have different types or kinds... Christians are blatantly described in the Bible and those not qualified in it are not Christians... wink

Both cannot be correct.

Lord Urizen
You will never find a correct answer, Adam Poe, since no Christian will come to a mutual agreement on this.

Adam_PoE

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I was not disagreeing with Capt Fantastic.

I didn't realize he was accusing you of doing so.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I didn't realize he was accusing you of doing so.

It seems Adam Poe thought I was trying to correct you with my argument. I was not. I was simply referring to the statement that some people are trying to make...the claim that without a God, there are no "real" Christians.

Shakyamunison

sithsaber408

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I didn't realize he was accusing you of doing so.

I do not understand where he is getting that either.

Capt_Fantastic
Originally posted by sithsaber408
You could say, that being a Christian is: Believing that Jesus of Nazareth was God in the flesh, believing that he was crucified for the purpose of cleansing the sins of humanity, receiving that salvation and his presence (through the Holy Spirit) into your soul, and accepting his teachings and instructions as the basis for living your life.


The different Christian denominations are (mostly) concerned with how one interprets and follows his words.

And I agree, you will probably never get a consensus on that, as people are flawed and see things through their own eyes as they want them to be.



Just as a side note, I've always found this line of thinking to be terribly contradictory and foolish.

Whether from Unitarians, or just the common man who says: "Yeah, Jesus was real, a Jewish teacher that was crucified, and he had alot of good ideas about people. He wasn't the son of God, but he's still a good man worth listening to."

HA!

He says flat-out that he is the son of God: "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father but by Me." and that he will return to heaven with his father God: "In my father's house there are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you." "I go to prepare a place for you."



Now for a normal rational person to say that he was a good teacher to listen to is nonsense.

That's like listening to a college professor who claims that he is the illegitimate heir of Bugs Bunny, and that he has the power to shit gold bricks and piss gold coins.

We wouldn't, we'd lock him away for being the raging looney that he is, and we certainly wouldn't give credence to anything that he says.

So you must take Jesus at his word, ALL of it:

Either he is the Son of Man, God in the flesh come to save humanity

or

he's the craziest person who ever lived.

But this "good teacher" crap is a complete cop-out by those people who can't deny his existence but don't want to acknowledge his divinity.

The only other option for people who think that way is to say that he was insane.





Lastly, I don't believe in a religion per se.

I don't have a "religion"..... I have a relationship with the very real God.

And hey, when I pray to him, in the name of his Son who saved me, using his Holy Spirit inside of me as my way of connection....

good things happen.

Jobs are given, blessings bestowed.
Family members are cured of Hepatitis, church members toddler children fall from 2nd story windows and rupture their spleens, yet receive healing that doctors at UC Davis cannot explain. (PM if you want to hear about that last one, it was only a month ago.)

cool

So, who is a christian?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This begs the question, "Who is a Christian?"
I can't help but think that this is some kind of trap.

Anyway, a Christian is anyone who...

1. Believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
2. Believes that Jesus Christ was sent to die for our sins and was the perfect sacrifice.
3. Has asked that Christ forgive them of their sins.
4. Follows the teachings of Christ.

Bardock42
Originally posted by FeceMan
I can't help but think that this is some kind of trap.

Anyway, a Christian is anyone who...

1. Believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
2. Believes that Jesus Christ was sent to die for our sins and was the perfect sacrifice.
3. Has asked that Christ forgive them of their sins.
4. Follows the teachings of Christ.

Are Mormons christian then?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Bardock42
Are Mormons christian then?
Newp.

They're a Christian sect...and by "Christian sect" I mean "pretty damn blasphemous but are loosely baesd on Christianity."

Bardock42
Originally posted by FeceMan
Newp.

I do not compute.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Bardock42
I do not compute.
I added more after the initial post.

Bardock42
Originally posted by FeceMan
I added more after the initial post.
Cool.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Bardock42
Cool.
Like ice.

Bardock42
Originally posted by FeceMan
Like ice.
Or the Sun.

Quiero Mota

peejayd
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
According to Gregory, anyone who claims to be a Christian is Christian:

According to peejayd, those who claim to be Christian but do not do good works are not Christian:

Both cannot be correct.

* yes, both cannot be correct... allow me to expound...

"As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"
John 8:30-31

* believing is not enough... people who continue in Jesus' words are His disciples...

"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch."
Acts 11:26

* and those disciples who continue in Jesus' words are Christians...

Originally posted by FeceMan
I can't help but think that this is some kind of trap.

Anyway, a Christian is anyone who...

1. Believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
2. Believes that Jesus Christ was sent to die for our sins and was the perfect sacrifice.
3. Has asked that Christ forgive them of their sins.
4. Follows the teachings of Christ.

* numbers 1-3 can be done hypocritically... number 4 owns them all...

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."
John 7:17

* people who claim to be Christians who do not follow Jesus' doctrine, are not Christians... wink

FeceMan
Numbers 1-3 are meant to be done in conjunction with number 4.

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
Jesus never called himself the "Christ" nor the"Messiah".

OH, and you can find what Jesus taught and only what he taught in the Gospel of "Q"

A little info about it.

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=542

"He said to them, But who do you say that I am?
Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
And Jesus answered him, Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 16:15-17

"And he asked them, But who do you say that I am? Peter answered him, You are the Christ.
And he charged them to tell no one about him."
Mark 8:29-30

"And he said to them, But who do you say that I am? And Peter answered, The Christ of God.
But he charged and commanded them to tell this to no one,"
Luke 9:20-21

"But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.
Jesus said to him, You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
Matthew 26:63-64

"But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
And Jesus said, I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."
Mark 14:61-62

"If you are the Christ, tell us. But he said to them, If I tell you, you will not believe;
And if I ask you, you will not answer.
But from now on the Son of man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.
And they all said, Are you the Son of God, then? And he said to them, You say that I am."
Luke 22:67-70

peejayd
Originally posted by FeceMan
Numbers 1-3 are meant to be done in conjunction with number 4.

* true, but as i've said, any group can claim doing it (#1-3)... #4 deals with much gravity... wink

debbiejo
But it doesn't say why.

First of all Jesus didn't say it. Peter did. And we all know the RC church is said to be of Peter....right?

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
But it doesn't say why.

First of all Jesus didn't say it. Peter did.

* yes, Saint Peter said it... and Jesus confirmed... Matthew 16:15-17...

Originally posted by debbiejo
And we all know the RC church is said to be of Peter....right?

* that's a Catholic doctrine... NOT a Christian doctrine... the Rock is Christ, not Saint Peter... wink

debbiejo
.

Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? 3 No one is good but God alone.
Mark 10:18 I think

Why does Jesus say this then. Isn't he god?

-hh-
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
According to Nellinator, the belief that The Bible is the word of God is essential to being a Christian:



According to -hh-, the belief that The Bible is the word of God is not essential to being a Christian:



Both cannot be correct. i tend to focus on the New Testament and less on the Old Testament. Once again, it's all based on individual personality and perspective. it's impossible for every Christian (and this goes as well for othe religions) to agree equally on every matter.

when did i say this



all i said was that the word of God is interpreted differently due to all the translations and the perspective of the believers. But the message should be the same (if truely Christian)

why am i not correct? since i contradict what another person says, that makes my point not valid?

Nellinator
Originally posted by debbiejo
.

Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? 3 No one is good but God alone.
Mark 10:18 I think

Why does Jesus say this then. Isn't he god?
Wow do I hate NIV more and more every day. KJV too actually.

"And Jesus said onto him, "Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but one , that is, God" Mark 10:18

Jesus and the Father are one...
Q.E.D.

debbiejo
Remember at that time there was NO punctuation..........just like the verse that has split denominations.


I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise.

I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise.

No punctuations.........

In that verse Jesus could be saying only god is good. It says nothing about him being god.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
Wow do I hate NIV more and more every day. KJV too actually.

"And Jesus said onto him, "Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but one , that is, God" Mark 10:18

Jesus and the Father are one...
Q.E.D.

It sounds like Jesus is calling himself human.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It sounds like Jesus is calling himself human.
Not if you read further. He elaborates his point and shows his lordship over eternal life around Mark 10:29ish.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
Not if you read further. He elaborates his point and shows his lordship over eternal life around Mark 10:29ish.

I don't remember Mark 10:29ish. laughing Is that from a new translation? laughing

Nellinator
Yes. no expression

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Nellinator
Yes. no expression

none180

muslimscholar
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In the United States, there are over 1,500 denominations, organizations, and non-denominational groups that identify as Christian.

Suppose one is given a description of each of the over 1,500 groups who identify as Christian, and is then asked to sort them into those groups that are truly Christian and those that are not.

Some will consider all of the groups to be Christian, some will consider only one of the groups to be Christian, and others will consider some of the groups to be Christian and not others.

This begs the question, "Who is a Christian?"

anyone who belives in 3 gods "god the farther god the son and god the holy ghost"

FeceMan
To chime in on the Mark 10:18 discussion:

Mark 10:17 says, "And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?"

My initial reaction to the question at hand would be that the man did not believe that Jesus was divine but rather human, and thus describing Christ--in the man's belief--as merely human.

EDIT: Furthermore, Christ may have been asking the man to justify why he described Christ as good.

Nellinator
Originally posted by FeceMan
Furthermore, Christ may have been asking the man to justify why he described Christ as good.
My thoughts exactly.

FeceMan
So, who wants to party at the reincarnation thread?

It's pretty much over, I think, so we might as well make use of it.

debbiejo
There's a party there??? OK, here I come.wine

"And Jesus answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time - houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions - and in the age to come, eternal life'," (Mark 10:29,30, New King James). Still can be looked at as a reincarnation view also.

Also you can look at the story of Nicodemous. that way.

Also:

Hebrews 9:27 and read: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

Judgement could mean the sowing and reaping of this life that would follow you to the next one.

FeceMan
Originally posted by debbiejo
There's a party there??? OK, here I come.wine

"And Jesus answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time - houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions - and in the age to come, eternal life'," (Mark 10:29,30, New King James). Still can be looked at as a reincarnation view also.
Reincarnation != eternal life.

Only if you're going to misinterpret the Scriptures.

Sure, if you ignore everything else that is written. And that ignores the "once to die" part.

Alliance
All literal interpretations of any holy text involve some degree of selective ignorance.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by debbiejo
There's a party there??? OK, here I come.wine






OMG ! IS THAT JESUS JUICE ? droolio

FeceMan
Originally posted by Alliance
All literal interpretations of any holy text involve some degree of selective ignorance.
Mmkay, except we're talking blatant disregard for the rest of the Bible.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
OMG ! IS THAT JESUS JUICE ? droolio Cut it out.... laughing out loud

OK it is...........

Alliance
Originally posted by FeceMan
Mmkay, except we're talking blatant disregard for the rest of the Bible.

Hence selective. Its not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Its an abstract text that was written thousands of years ago, nto to mentio nthe number of changes that have been made to it.

finti
and deservedly so, should be all of it instead of rest of it though

Alliance
laughing out loud

FeceMan
Originally posted by Alliance
Hence selective. Its not as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Its an abstract text that was written thousands of years ago, nto to mentio nthe number of changes that have been made to it.
I'd consider that a bit more than "selective," but that's a fairly moot point.

Alliance
I don't believe its as cut and dry as you think it is. And I almost garuntee that your religion also axes some large, supposedly necessary principles.

peejayd
Originally posted by debbiejo
.

Jesus answered him, "Why do you call me good? 3 No one is good but God alone.
Mark 10:18 I think

Why does Jesus say this then. Isn't he god?

* first, you must understand the being of Christ... what really is His being according to the Bible?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God;"
John 1:1-2

* in the beginning, Christ was with God, and Christ was God (not the Father, but a God)... then what happened?

"Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, Sacrifices and offerings thou hast not desired, but a body hast thou prepared for me;"
Hebrews 10:5

* Christ came into the world and the Father prepared and human body for Christ as a vessel... details...

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father."
John 1:14

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
I Timothy 3:16

* Christ, who was a God, was manifested in the flesh, a human body...

"For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,"
Revised Standard Version

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
King James Version
Colossians 2:9

* even with a human body, Christ is divine... so back to Mark 10:18, God is good, and so is Christ because He is also a God like the Father... wink

debbiejo
Worshipper of Paul..........

finti
so the first commandment doesnt count any more then? and quoting the bible is just as me quoting a burglers version of a break in

debbiejo
Everyone is a Constantine worshiper today.

finti
nah he didnt come to my party so screw him

debbiejo
But but he is a Christian.........he wouldn't screw would he?? roll eyes (sarcastic)

finti
well to reproduce he must and there were and still are always the alter boys for these catholic pervs or pope/cardinal/bishop/or priest/father as they also are called

debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
well to reproduce he must and there were and still are always the alter boys for these catholic pervs or pope/cardinal/bishop/or priest/father as they also are called Yes at one time many popes had children. OH, and that one woman pope. What the heck was that??...... confused

finti
well ask the chatholics about that, early suffrage or just an early tomboy

debbiejo
Bisexual!! eek!

finti
well if dick fits wear it eek!

debbiejo
*speachless*

There was a Pharaoh like that too.............

finti
yeah Phallo dicopulus or just Pharo ramdick

debbiejo
Very interesting....never heard of that Pharaoh........I always thought her name was Ms. Goesinya........

finti
Genitalia?

debbiejo
Nooooooo I'm talking about Ms goes-in-ya........She's spanish.

Everyones likes her..cause shes a goesinya........or well with that strap on thingie.

finti
laughing out loud laughing out loud laughing out loud strap on dildo or.....laughing out loud

debbiejo
Well at that time it was STONE hard......like really stone.

finti
hate it when that happens

debbiejo
OH?

Reminds me of a cheese for old people......Limp burger......

finti
yeah hate when that happens too

debbiejo
How old are you again?? rolling on floor laughing evil face big grin smile

finti
beer sometimes does that to you regardless age beer

debbiejo
You said not though.........Arent you the one who can drink like a bizillion beers.??.....LOL

Alliance
Alcohol is the devil.

debbiejo
Jesus made it.........His first miracle...............He made the devil concentrate...Devil in a bottle........One you could take home and make your very own..share it with your friends!! .....BE ONE TOGETHER..........Or 3 if you're into the trinity.

Storm
I' d say that Christianity is unthinkable without the figure of Jesus Christ.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Alliance
I don't believe its as cut and dry as you think it is. And I almost garuntee that your religion also axes some large, supposedly necessary principles.
Such as?

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Storm
I' d say that Christianity is unthinkable without the figure of Jesus Christ.

Naturally, for the sake of definition a Christian is one who believes Jesus is the Christ. That is pretty much the sole criteria to classify oneself a Christian.

Remove Jesus and a person isn't a Christian - though the basic tenants of what they believe could potentially lend itself to Islam or Judaism.

Lord Urizen
Self-Identification as a Christian is ALL it takes to be Christian. Many "Christians" don't even know wtf they truly beleive....some people are only Christian, because their family is...

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Self-Identification as a Christian is ALL it takes to be Christian. Many "Christians" don't even know wtf they truly beleive....some people are only Christian, because their family is...

Obviously self-identification is a primary component - but then if they say "I am a Christian but I don't believe in Jesus" then it is tricky - since by definition the removal of Jesus denies them Christian status. Like someone saying "I am Doctor" yet not have such a qualification. Self Identification goes a long way, but not all the way.

But yes - so many people say they are Christian due to the family links -which I would classify as a very weak religious identity.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Obviously self-identification is a primary component - but then if they say "I am a Christian but I don't believe in Jesus" then it is tricky - since by definition the removal of Jesus denies them Christian status. Like someone saying "I am Doctor" yet not have such a qualification. Self Identification goes a long way, but not all the way.

But yes - so many people say they are Christian due to the family links -which I would classify as a very weak religious identity.


Some Christians don't even know what they beleive.....i know some Christians who have said, "Oh, isn't Jesus our father ?"

Then I say, "He's God's son. He suposedly died on the cross for your sins"

Then they go, "He did ? But God can't die"



Yet they are Christian.....what makes a Christian who doesn't accept Jesus as God, any less Christian than these dimwits ?

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Some Christians don't even know what they beleive.....i know some Christians who have said, "Oh, isn't Jesus our father ?"

Then I say, "He's God's son. He suposedly died on the cross for your sins"

Then they go, "He did ? But God can't die"



Yet they are Christian.....what makes a Christian who doesn't accept Jesus as God, any less Christian than these dimwits ?

Well technically it sounds like they still believe in Jesus, just in a doctrinally questionable fashion.

After all, when one compares the awesome variety of Christian sect/denominations and the factions that exist in each of them it is possible to say that none of them know what to really believe, since the important claim of "we are the right ones" means that everyone who isn't them is at least a little wrong.

And as the Jesus thread here shows - reasonably well educated sounding Christians can't decide if Jesus is or isn't God.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Well technically it sounds like they still believe in Jesus, just in a doctrinally questionable fashion.

After all, when one compares the awesome variety of Christian sect/denominations and the factions that exist in each of them it is possible to say that none of them know what to really believe, since the important claim of "we are the right ones" means that everyone who isn't them is at least a little wrong.

And as the Jesus thread here shows - reasonably well educated sounding Christians can't decide if Jesus is or isn't God.


But why do they NEED to be right ? What are they afraid of ?


Buddhists are generally content not knowing about the nature of the world, and not knowing the origins of creation....

Why do so many Christians have such a fear of the afterlife, and such a disregard for the diversity of this current life ?

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But why do they NEED to be right ? What are they afraid of ?

They probably don't need to be right, it is a product of modern times, the urge to be right up to the hilt, no room for doubt (which was once considered a part of conviction.)

But then again people like to think they are right. And when you have a multitude of competing claims", marketing ideas behind one of them is hardly ever going to be "lets admit their is a chance we are wrong and hope the masses still follow us despite being faced by others who claim to be 100% right and true and beyond doubt."

Because "we might be wrong" doesn't have the same ring to it as "we are privy to a God given truth."



Not just Christians of course.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Why do so many Christians have such a fear of the afterlife, and such a disregard for the diversity of this current life ?
Because the afterlife is for eternity.

This life is nothing, a short-lived mist that is dispelled by the slightest breeze.

debbiejo
How do you know for sure? Couldn't it be that we are already IN eternity and these physical lives are just short stop offs.

FeceMan
Originally posted by debbiejo
How do you know for sure? Couldn't it be that we are already IN eternity and these physical lives are just short stop offs.
That...doesn't make much sense.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
That...doesn't make much sense.

To one who has no imagination....Reincarnation, hello....

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Because the afterlife is for eternity.

This life is nothing, a short-lived mist that is dispelled by the slightest breeze.


IF this life is nothing, then why should the consequences of it be eternal ?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
To one who has no imagination....Reincarnation, hello....
I thought of that. Then I decided that it still didn't make much sense.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
IF this life is nothing, then why should the consequences of it be eternal ?
Contrary to popular belief, what we do in this life matters.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Contrary to popular belief, what we do in this life matters.




Oh, I totally agree...


But You didn't answer my question...if this Life is nothing, as you so strategically put it, then why should the consequences of nothing be eternal ?

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