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What are your opinions on them?

As an avid fan of metal in nearly all forms, I find that they fit the music very well and think they're just as good as singing if the vocalist can do it right. I hear people complain that they cannot understand the lyrics, thus the vocals are rubbish. If anyone has listened to the band Amon Amarth, most will say, despite the harsh vocals, the lyrics are quite easy to understand.
Also, one kind of gets used to it after a while. Think about learning a new language. At first, the accent makes it sound like gibberish, but after a while of immersion, it's suddenly not so hard to comprehend.
Grindcore, however. No effing clue. I think it's point or something not to understand the vocals. I don't listen to it much, so meh...

Personally I like quite a few bands with screaming vocals. Not my preference, but a lot of bands make it work well.

Yeah, Amon Amarth vocals are distinguishable, which is commendable for Viking Metal. That said, there are tons of "hardcore" bands, and I use the term as loosely as possible, given the bastardization of the namesake, whos lyrics are just intolerable. Converge, From A Second Story Window and the like..it's just yelling. Not that I give a **** about actually deciphering what the band is crying about, it would be nice to make them out, though.

"Hardcore" is such a dilluted genre these days, it almost seems hopeless to find a unique band amongst the garbage. Thankfully, I have.

I prefer harsh vocals to 'normal' singing in metal

Screaming vocals are sort of stupid.

They can work excellently, if they are used for a reason (that is not, 'I can't actually sing', as is often the case).

Many times a band brings out an album with 'singing' on and will say 'there's more singing on this one. My voice has improved', all but admitting they are talentless fools who saw fit to unleash a wave of aural rapeitude.

I don't really understand the fuss about understanding lyrics as well. Read the sheet if you care that much.

If it sounds good, cool.

If I can't understand the lyrics I hate it. Some metal bands I can understand, others I cannot. I especially hate it when I do read the lyrics and find awesome poetic lyrics that are being harshly screamed so that they are not understandable.

My classic example: Cradle of Filth

Originally posted by Nellinator
If I can't understand the lyrics I hate it. Some metal bands I can understand, others I cannot. I especially hate it when I do read the lyrics and find awesome poetic lyrics that are being harshly screamed so that they are not understandable.

My classic example: Cradle of Filth

What about foreign lyrics. Or songs without lyrics though?

I do appreciate good lyrics, but I would separate them from good songs. though if the lyrics are outright idiotic I might not feel the urge to listen to a song even if it is rather good musically.

As I've said before, people complain about not being able to decipher certain lyrics from songs by, say, Converge. Yet it's no different to not being able to decipher Rammstein, really.

I don't buy the music to relate to a man or woman's words, I buy it for the music. Like it was said previously, it depends on why the vocals are being used. Ihsahn can scream people's faces off, but it's because he chooses to do so to fit the song. If he desired, as he often does, he could out-sing almost anyone.

-AC

Originally posted by Bardock42
What about foreign lyrics. Or songs without lyrics though?

I do appreciate good lyrics, but I would separate them from good songs. though if the lyrics are outright idiotic I might not feel the urge to listen to a song even if it is rather good musically.
Foreign lyrics are fine, if I can make out the fact that there are distinct words. I like both Rammstein (although I understand most of their lyrics), X-Japan, and some Dir en Grey.
Instrumentals are different. I listen for different things when listening to an instrumental. However, I'm not a huge fan of instrumentals because they can get boring very quick.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As I've said before, people complain about not being able to decipher certain lyrics from songs by, say, Converge. Yet it's no different to not being able to decipher Rammstein, really.

I don't buy the music to relate to a man or woman's words, I buy it for the music. Like it was said previously, it depends on why the vocals are being used. Ihsahn can scream people's faces off, but it's because he chooses to do so to fit the song. If he desired, as he often does, he could out-sing almost anyone.

-AC

Well, I mostly buy lyrics for pleasure reasons. Though if Radiohead would now start putting in Nazi lyrics which I would find annoying, my listening experience would be decreased to such a point that I might not buy or listen to it anymore.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
What are your opinions on them?

As an avid fan of metal in nearly all forms, I find that they fit the music very well and think they're just as good as singing if the vocalist can do it right. I hear people complain that they cannot understand the lyrics, thus the vocals are rubbish. If anyone has listened to the band Amon Amarth, most will say, despite the harsh vocals, the lyrics are quite easy to understand.
Also, one kind of gets used to it after a while. Think about learning a new language. At first, the accent makes it sound like gibberish, but after a while of immersion, it's suddenly not so hard to comprehend.
Grindcore, however. No effing clue. I think it's point or something not to understand the vocals. I don't listen to it much, so meh... If done properly they dont sound too bad .. but if its amateurs then its rather off putting

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom


I don't really understand the fuss about understanding lyrics as well. Read the sheet if you care that much.

What's the point in vocals that don't serve a purpose? Added effect? Shrill pitch screaming or throaty growls don't make me bob my head any faster or harder than a well executed breakbeat or blast-beat.

Post-hardcore bands are on the scene for a reason. Given the derivative nature, you'd think vocals would be the distinguishing factor for the bands, but their not, which is why I don't follow the genre. Kids just go to gaze at their shoes and push the hair out of their eyes every two minutes. Same for death metal. Meatheads don't feel the need to "get" lyrics because they're just tossing each other around or rolling their eyes in the backs of their heads.

I appreciate the overall craftsmanship of a band. Unique vocals, engaging music, and an overall coherent product. I have my guilty pleasures, i.e. Between the Buried and Me, but it accounts for maybe 15% of the music I enjoy.

Ultimately, to each their own, but sometimes I wonder why half of these bands aren't just sans vocals.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I especially hate it when I do read the lyrics and find awesome poetic lyrics that are being harshly screamed so that they are not understandable.

My classic example: Cradle of Filth

You apparantly don't "get" lyrics either then.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I can make out the fact that there are distinct words.

There are always distinct words. Whether or not you can hear them properly is entirely different.

Originally posted by The Core
What's the point in vocals that don't serve a purpose?

Who says vocals indefinitely need lyrics to serve a purpose? The melodies of the vocals (More often than not written before the lyrics) are there to specifically serve the song, that's their purpose.

Originally posted by The Core
Meatheads don't feel the need to "get" lyrics because they're just tossing each other around or rolling their eyes in the backs of their heads.

Not the best way of expressing yourself admittedly, but they seem to "get" it more than lyricphiles do. The point of music is how it makes you feel, not what the words say. People who feel the need to "get" lyrics aren't fans of music, they're fans of lyrics.

To paraphrase Maynard James Keenan: If you're thinking you're not feeling as much as you should be. If you went to see the Mona Lisa and it said "Eat at Joe's" on the bottom, that's what you'd remember, not the art.

Originally posted by The Core
Ultimately, to each their own, but sometimes I wonder why half of these bands aren't just sans vocals.

Because the lyrics aren't necessarily there for you, they're there for the person who wants them to be there. Jacob Bannon knows what he's screaming, why should it matter to him if I don't?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I mostly buy lyrics for pleasure reasons. Though if Radiohead would now start putting in Nazi lyrics which I would find annoying, my listening experience would be decreased to such a point that I might not buy or listen to it anymore.

Yes, so it decreases your listening experience. It takes nothing away from the music, just your ability to enjoy it, for some reason.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

Yes, so it decreases your listening experience. It takes nothing away from the music, just your ability to enjoy it, for some reason.

-AC

Agreed.

Confucius says : he who screams all the time, has crap lyrics.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Confucius says : he who screams all the time, has crap lyrics.
Well, that's nonsense obviously. One could scream the lyrics of Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen or Morrissey. One could also scream Shakespearean Sonnets or poems of Yeats. In either case they would have excellent lyrics, wouldn't they?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, that's nonsense obviously. One could scream the lyrics of Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen or Morrissey. One could also scream Shakespearean Sonnets or poems of Yeats. In either case they would have excellent lyrics, wouldn't they?
Personally I have never heard anyone screaming the lyrics of Dylan, Cohen or Morrissey. And if they did, it would be a shame, because some lyrics deserve to be heard.

Unlike most metal lyrics... (expects a serious bashing)

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Personally I have never heard anyone screaming the lyrics of Dylan, Cohen or Morrissey. And if they did, it would be a shame, because some lyrics deserve to be heard.

Unlike most metal lyrics... (expects a serious bashing) Hey, it's your opinion, that's cool, I'm just saying this Mr. Confucius is wrong.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Hey, it's your opinion, that's cool, I'm just saying this Mr. Confucius is wrong.
Well, he IS Chinese after all.

Being able to understand the lyrics isnt important. Its not like I can understand half the bands I listen to that actually sing.

At least metal bands have fans that only care what it sounds like, regardless of how they act. They've got the right idea.

It's people who walk around with their noses up because they like Bob Dylan's lyrics that you have to question.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's people who walk around with their noses up because they like Bob Dylan's lyrics that you have to question.

-AC

Hey, it's not my falt that you don't get him, man. He jsut...he speaks to your soul. Dude...you just don't understand. I understand. I am better than you.

Wow, who knew this would be so popular?

Anywho, in response to screaming Bob Dylan and Shakespeare, remember, not all harsh vocals are indecipherable. I find a great deal of black metal vocals and Amon Amarth to be quite easy to understand. In fact, I've always wondered what a harsh vocal version of Bohemian Rhapsody would sound like...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
At least metal bands have fans that only care what it sounds like, regardless of how they act. They've got the right idea.

It's people who walk around with their noses up because they like Bob Dylan's lyrics that you have to question.

-AC Exactly. Bands like Converge and Refused wouldnt sound nearly as good without screaming.

Originally posted by The Core
What's the point in vocals that don't serve a purpose? Added effect?

Are you suggesting that vocals in which the lyrics are unclear serve no purpose?

I doubt you are, because that would make you an idiot.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Exactly. Bands like Converge and Refused wouldnt sound nearly as good without screaming.

Although Jane Doe (The song) features Jacob Bannon singing, and it's arguably one of the best metal album closers, in my opinion.

Grim Heart/Black Rose was one of the better songs off their new album, that had singing. Converge aren't a band that play fast, loud and harsh because that's all they CAN do, they do it because it's what they want to do, the opposite of what VVD suggested; Screaming because you can't sing.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Screaming because you can't sing.


And in most cases, everyone can rest easy that is false.

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Exactly. Bands like Converge and Refused wouldnt sound nearly as good without screaming.

I think Converge are terrible musicians, personally. That's art, made for themselves, not music. Just because they incorporate musical instruments doesn't mean it's necessarily "music". Anyone who latches on, for whatever reason, because I can't find one, is a bonus to the band. It's the compliments they get that baffle me.

"Converge kick ass!". At what? Expression? Noise? Because there doesn't look to be any real craftsmanship. Kind of like a heavy metal Pollock.

Like I said, to each their own. Sometimes it's kind of funny trying to reason their following.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Are you suggesting that vocals in which the lyrics are unclear serve no purpose?

I doubt you are, because that would make you an idiot.

In post-hardcore namely, I don't know why bands go to such great lengths to be so prophetic and poetic when the words are indistinguishable. They can serve a purpose if that's their intention. Wether it's realized by the people it's intended for is a whole 'nother story.

Cases in point why I go out of my way to find unique, engaging, and most importantly audible music, with minor exceptions, and subsequently why I can listen to so few bands.

Like I said before, I fail to understand how so many bands are content with sounding alike, when their passion and "art" is being mimiced by every new "hardcore" band that pops on MySpace or on Victory Records. No distinction.

Originally posted by Bardiel13
And in most cases, everyone can rest easy that is false.

Most cases?

Here's the popular scenario: Take Killswitch Engage's Howard Jones, he screams, then he sings. People say "HE CAN DO BOTH!". Yes, literally he can. Most of those run of the mill metal bands have lead singers with a typical "good singing voice" that convinces kids they are good singers.

Howard Jones starts crooning and all the people go "He's such a good singer!". He's not, he's just singing in a way that is perceived as good singing. Nothing against the man, I'm not a fan but you could do worse. I just think he's a good example.

Originally posted by The Core
I think Converge are terrible musicians, personally.

It doesn't matter what you think, personally. Kurt Ballou and Ben Koller are two of the more respected guitarists and drummers (Respectively) in heavy music. It's not a matter of whether or not you like them, the fact that they are talented on their instruments isn't for you to decide.

Whether or not you like what they do with them is up to you.

Originally posted by The Core
That's art, made for themselves, not music. Just because they incorporate musical instruments doesn't mean it's necessarily "music".

A) That's exactly the way it should be. Make music for you and for yourself, because if you're making music for fans, you have a limited lifespan and you're idiots. Rush make music for themselves, 30 year career of greatness. Britney Spears makes if for her fans...anyone? Anyone predict a 30 year respected career?

B) It's music. It doesn't have to be melodic to be music, you seem to be stuck in a way of defining things incorrectly. You are applying the "I don't think it is, so it's simply not." rationale. You don't have the right to do that in any other area than whether you think it's good or bad.

Originally posted by The Core
Anyone who latches on, for whatever reason, because I can't find one, is a bonus to the band. It's the compliments they get that baffle me.

The problem is, you're baffled. You're baffled because you don't understand and what they do simply doesn't appeal to you. You like Throwdown and Chimaira; You're far from infallible.

Originally posted by The Core
"Converge kick ass!". At what? Expression? Noise? Because there doesn't look to be any real craftsmanship. Kind of like a heavy metal Pollock.

At being a band and making music. You seem to be suggesting that because it's not melodic, it's not music. "I can't see it, so it's not there.". That's stupid.

Originally posted by The Core
I don't know why bands go to such great lengths to be so prophetic and poetic when the words are indistinguishable. They can serve a purpose if that's their intention. Wether it's realized by the people it's intended for is a whole 'nother story.

I know this may come as a shocking revelation, but what if...WHAT IF...it's intended for them, and not the fans? What if, heaven forbid, they actually did it all for their own enjoyment? You're stuck in a cycle of assuming they simply must be doing it for others, and therefore it's pointless to make them indecipherable. You're complaining about not understanding Jacob Bannon's lyrics because you don't like Converge.

Converge fans don't care that you can't hear the lyrics that well, because they concentrate on what they're all doing and enjoying it, whatever each of them believes it is. I love Converge, if I want their lyrics I go to a site.

Originally posted by The Core
Cases in point why I go out of my way to find unique, engaging, and most importantly audible music, with minor exceptions, and subsequently why I can listen to so few bands.

Like I said before, I fail to understand how so many bands are content with sounding alike, when their passion and "art" is being mimiced by every new "hardcore" band that pops on MySpace or on Victory Records. No distinction.

A) All music is audible.

B) Why should a band with a sound change simply because many are ripping them off? Just because fans can't make the distinction and apply respect and admiration accordingly, doesn't mean the bands have to cater to them and change to make it easier.

You seem to believe that the fans have some entitlement here, and you're wrong.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Although Jane Doe (The song) features Jacob Bannon singing, and it's arguably one of the best metal album closers, in my opinion.



-AC I havent heard that particular song, but Im hopefully getting Jane Doe for Christmas. I have, however, heard Brannon singing on "The Saddest Day," and honestly, I strongly prefer his screaming.

Originally posted by The Core
I think Converge are terrible musicians, personally. That's art, made for themselves, not music.
It's music of course. Just very bad one. My head hurts when I listen to more than one song of Converge.

They have like two songs and repeat it endlessly.

If it's once in a while in a song, then I don't mind it. But if it's the whole song then it gets really annoying. Like those "hardcore" bands that are popular nowadays.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
They have like two songs and repeat it endlessly.

That's actually false.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's actually false.

-AC
Yes I know, my mistake. I'm sorry.

They only have one song and repeat it endlessly.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Yes I know, my mistake. I'm sorry.

They only have one song and repeat it endlessly.

Dude, you are quite the hater, aren't you?

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
Yes I know, my mistake. I'm sorry.

They only have one song and repeat it endlessly.

I see what you did there, mildly funny.

False, though. Seeing as your next option is to either say they have more than two songs or less than one, I'd say you're a bit stuck. Didn't quite think that through did you?

Say they've got three songs, go on.

-AC

Why did this turn into the "Hate-on-Converge" thread?

You don't think he is. You make it sound as if you're substituting people's supposed false perception to make your opinion come off as fact. That's not fair. What's your exposure to KSE or Blood Has Been Shed? Have you heard KSE's cover of "Holy Diver", a purely melodically sung rendition? Howard Jones is no fluke. He can sing, and his range is comparable to Phil LaBonte of All That Remains, who's come up in these threads before.




Honestly, it doesn't appear that the competition would be too fierce given when you hear "heavy music", which I don't follow, DEP and Converge..maybe even Saetia, are the only names that come to mind. That said, respect and talent don't necessarily compliment one another. Converge may be respected for the FACT that they're one of the bands that ushered in metalcore, which has been a blessing and a curse, given they've changed their style to blend in overtime. Any other "fact", like that pertaining to someone's skill, will always be nothing more than an incredibly popular opinion. Lack, or abundance of talent. It's a non-debate.



Actually, I don't follow Throwdown. They're a poor man's Pantera and their music is about as boring as Terror. I owned a CD for a bit, but otherwise, no. I do enjoy Chimaira's older work. They softened up. Don't really get where you were going with that swipe, though. Questioning my credibility because I appreciate bands you don't.




Nope. I can appreciate that music doesn't have to be melodic, nor has to have structure, but once you get into the realm where you just omit those and throw caution to the wind with your craft, it's art in it's purist form because you ignore all the traditional elements to express something as ugly as whatever you may be feeling, i.e. a lot of DEP's work.




I said before that musicians always write for themselves. Any self-respecting person who appreciates music would know that. You're totally wrong. I'm complaining about not understanding Jacob Bannon's lyrics because they're unintelligible to anyone other than himself. My dislike for Converge is beside the point. I'll complain about any other band that screeches, growls, or yells the majority of their lyrics as well. I'm not partial. I'm an elitist, remember?



Why should they care; they don't themselves to begin with. Like I said before, there's nothing distinguishing them from many other bands in the same genre aside from history and namesake, and considering there's 1 original member, that doesn't account for a lot, IMO.



I'll rephrase; tolerable.



I'm talking about the copycats specifially. Not the originators. "Enter-your-scene/genre-here" - Core is so basic nowadays, and it's so easy to sell records because kids just don't give a ****. As long as they can karate chop and kick their way in a pit, it's all good, and that's a shame.



Well, god forbid the people that support the bands livelihoods be shown any admiration in return in any instance, not that I want anything more than the bands to play my town. I don't know where I asked for, or suggested, anything else?

Originally posted by RedAlertv2
Why did this turn into the "Hate-on-Converge" thread?

Because...



Welcome to the Music Forums. You're in a debate thread with AC and C-Dic. Be warned that we're opinionated, and my opinion is that Converge isn't "good" with or without screaming. I bit my tongue on Refused, because I hate whiny, preachy politcal punk music. Let's leave their actual music out of it.

Well no, let's not leave the actual music out.

Originally posted by The Core
You don't think he is. You make it sound as if you're substituting people's supposed false perception to make your opinion come off as fact. That's not fair. What's your exposure to KSE or Blood Has Been Shed? Have you heard KSE's cover of "Holy Diver", a purely melodically sung rendition? Howard Jones is no fluke. He can sing, and his range is comparable to Phil LaBonte of All That Remains, who's come up in these threads before.

Yes I have heard it, you should know me better than to believe I judge without having heard, but you're only proving my point.

"Howard is no fluke, he can sing.". So what? He can literally sing and has a crooney voice, big deal. There are many literal singers in this world, it doesn't make you a good one just because you have a large voice. I don't consider him a good singer because I consider people like Jeff Buckley good singers. People who not only had great actually singing ability, but unique voices. What Howard does isn't unique, what Phil does is not unique. They won't be remembered for their amazing voices.

Originally posted by The Core
Honestly, it doesn't appear that the competition would be too fierce given when you hear "heavy music", which I don't follow, DEP and Converge..maybe even Saetia, are the only names that come to mind. That said, respect and talent don't necessarily compliment one another. Converge may be respected for the FACT that they're one of the bands that ushered in metalcore, which has been a blessing and a curse, given they've changed their style to blend in overtime. Any other "fact", like that pertaining to someone's skill, will always be nothing more than an incredibly popular opinion. Lack, or abundance of talent. It's a non-debate.

Who are you to question my love of heavy music Mr. Didn't like/know Mastodon until they released their major label debut? I like a couple of heavy bands you don't "get", and therefore I'm not credible to speak on heavy music? Bit silly. You put Mastodon up there with Tool, technically (Wrongly), and I was listening to them when you considered them nothing but noise. Don't act as if you're some nutter just because you finally caught the rope and realised they were excellent.

I don't choose to debate technical talent because it doesn't mean anything when discussing love of music or creativity, but you are factually wrong for calling Converge poor musicians, they're not.

Originally posted by The Core
Don't really get where you were going with that swipe, though. Questioning my credibility because I appreciate bands you don't.

I'll chuckle, move on, and let you retract that now. Given the above debacle.

Originally posted by The Core
it's art in it's purist form because you ignore all the traditional elements to express something as ugly as whatever you may be feeling, i.e. a lot of DEP's work.

...oh I'm sorry, I thought you were going to get to the part where this is a bad thing. "I don't like it that way.", I assume would be your answer.

Originally posted by The Core
I said before that musicians always write for themselves. Any self-respecting person who appreciates music would know that. You're totally wrong. I'm complaining about not understanding Jacob Bannon's lyrics because they're unintelligible to anyone other than himself. My dislike for Converge is beside the point. I'll complain about any other band that screeches, growls, or yells the majority of their lyrics as well. I'm not partial. I'm an elitist, remember?

An elitist that acts like Howard Jones and Phil la Bonte are great singers who stand out in a genre that stands out or deserves to.

If you believe you are an elitist because you like your "metalcore" to be of a certain quality, and that quality is All That Remains, then I really don't know what kind of elitism you're preaching. Kind of like people who call themselves a percentage of vegetarian.

Originally posted by The Core
Why should they care; they don't themselves to begin with. Like I said before, there's nothing distinguishing them from many other bands in the same genre aside from history and namesake, and considering there's 1 original member, that doesn't account for a lot, IMO.

Of course there is. Converge have much more choppy and bitey guitar than a lot of the bands in the genre you are lumping them, and none of those vocalists sound anything like Jacob Bannon.

Originally posted by The Core
I'm talking about the copycats specifially. Not the originators. "Enter-your-scene/genre-here" - Core is so basic nowadays, and it's so easy to sell records because kids just don't give a ****. As long as they can karate chop and kick their way in a pit, it's all good, and that's a shame.

I'm not talking about the originators. Copycats are bad, we know this.

Originally posted by The Core
Well, god forbid the people that support the bands livelihoods be shown any admiration in return in any instance, not that I want anything more than the bands to play my town. I don't know where I asked for, or suggested, anything else?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but the bands aren't asking you to listen to them, you listen to them of your own free will and in return, listen to/buy their music. They don't owe you or anybody anything.

-AC

You're comparing, out of their elements, someone who's a singer by trade against someone who only started incorporating melodies into their work less than 5 years ago. Howard's vocals are what set KSE apart from tons of other metal bands out there. Wether or not that will be their legacy remains to be seen, but it won't hurt, given he's just as good live as in studio. I think Howard's style is unique, as is Byron Davis/Negrodamus', and especially Lajon Witherspoon, who opened the doors for those guys. Talent-wise, Lajon is the strongest. Just keeping it in the genre for the sake of arguement.



I didn't question it, AC. You said they were well respected, and I said given how shallow the genre is, it couldn't be that hard. You're taking the offensive out of nowhere. Yes, I made mention that Mastodon, after a couple more albums, given their progression, has the potential to be as big as Tool. That's just my opinion, and I don't just spit out my feelings, and I didn't think it was so much a far-fetched proclamation as it was a strong opinion based on their evolution. How I was wrong in making a claim is beyond me. I base it on what I hear.



Technical talent doesn't mean anything when it comes to creativity? I'm "factually wrong" because I have a negative opinion? Popular belief isn't fact. It's still an opinion, like mine. Obviously, some people's opinions are accepted as fact, where as mine is just "wrong"? Give me a break!




I'm not retracting anything. There's no reason, and especially not just because you don't appreciate Chimaira. This is just another example of differing opinions, and you're being more valid than mine somehow.




I never said it was a bad thing. If done in a way that I can appreciate, there may be a noise band out there that I like. I highly doubt it though, because I'm less a fan of actual art, and more of music for entertainment and emotion.




You do this all too often, but at the same time, never offer any alternatives, solutions, or reasons as to why the bands don't appeal to you. I give that courtesy, I don't just stealth attack opinions, I've got a basis for disliking and liking every single band I listen to. I hold a high standard, and the highest of that is uniquity. Both bands have it. The elitism I preach is liking very few bands, holding somewhat of a high standard, and being content with it. I have guilty pleasure like anyone else, but not so extreme that I'll sacrifice good taste for the sake of acceptance, or liking a band because everyone else does.





I can't do this one. Screaming is screaming. It only gets louder, more shrill, and less tolerable.




Well, then we're going in circles, lol. Korn felt the need to change because of so many copycats. Then again, necessary evolution gave way to outside inspiration, and they've totally lost their touch. That said, I don't know of any other band in the past decade that has shook up the genre hard enough to force bands to change.

Originally posted by The Core
You're comparing, out of their elements, someone who's a singer by trade against someone who only started incorporating melodies into their work less than 5 years ago. Howard's vocals are what set KSE apart from tons of other metal bands out there. Wether or not that will be their legacy remains to be seen, but it won't hurt, given he's just as good live as in studio. I think Howard's style is unique, as is Byron Davis/Negrodamus', and especially Lajon Witherspoon, who opened the doors for those guys. Talent-wise, Lajon is the strongest. Just keeping it in the genre for the sake of arguement.

Lajon Witherspoon is no better than your average singing vocalist. People just think he's amazing cos he's in a "metal" band. If he put out an R&B album, nobody would say a word about his "talent".

Originally posted by The Core
I didn't question it, AC. You said they were well respected, and I said given how shallow the genre is, it couldn't be that hard. You're taking the offensive out of nowhere. Yes, I made mention that Mastodon, after a couple more albums, given their progression, has the potential to be as big as Tool. That's just my opinion, and I don't just spit out my feelings, and I didn't think it was so much a far-fetched proclamation as it was a strong opinion based on their evolution. How I was wrong in making a claim is beyond me. I base it on what I hear.

The point I'm making is, you called them a noise band, like you call Converge a noise band. I didn't suggest you know nothing of heavy music as a result, I'd expect you to afford me the same respect.

Originally posted by The Core
Technical talent doesn't mean anything when it comes to creativity? I'm "factually wrong" because I have a negative opinion? Popular belief isn't fact. It's still an opinion, like mine. Obviously, some people's opinions are accepted as fact, where as mine is just "wrong"? Give me a break!

You don't have the right to decide who is better at something just because you dislike them. You disliking Converge doesn't mean they are technically bad musicians, is my point. Me liking them doesn't make it so either, the fact that they are, is what makes them good. Creatively? That's subjective.

You couldn't come out and say Synyster Gates was more talented than Steve Vai, if you did, your opinion would be wrong.

Originally posted by The Core
I'm not retracting anything. There's no reason, and especially not just because you don't appreciate Chimaira. This is just another example of differing opinions, and you're being more valid than mine somehow.

You questioned my credibility because you can't appreciate Dillinger and/or Converge, so I'm doing the same. The difference is, I don't choose to appreciate Chimaira, you CAN'T appreciate anything about Dillinger or Converge. Not even the fact that they're good on their instruments. I dislike Avenged Sevenfold, but I can admit Gates is a good player.

Originally posted by The Core
I never said it was a bad thing. If done in a way that I can appreciate, there may be a noise band out there that I like. I highly doubt it though, because I'm less a fan of actual art, and more of music for entertainment and emotion.

Britney Spears is an "entertainer" who uses music, Converge use music and coincidentally end up entertaining their fans. Entertainment is a part of music, but whether or not it's the intention or result are two completely different things.

You're essentially writing things off just because you simply don't "get" it.

Originally posted by The Core
You do this all too often, but at the same time, never offer any alternatives, solutions, or reasons as to why the bands don't appeal to you. I give that courtesy, I don't just stealth attack opinions, I've got a basis for disliking and liking every single band I listen to. I hold a high standard, and the highest of that is uniquity. Both bands have it. The elitism I preach is liking very few bands, holding somewhat of a high standard, and being content with it. I have guilty pleasure like anyone else, but not so extreme that I'll sacrifice good taste for the sake of acceptance, or liking a band because everyone else does.

I've said many times that the bands I name, all those bands with identikit names, forgettable musicians, forgettable songs and forgettable albums, are bands I have no time for.

I'm not out here saying Killswitch Engage are the worst of the worst, they're not and you could do a LOT worse, but in my eyes, being mediocre is almost as bad. There's nothing, to me, distinguishing them from any other band that shouts and then croons a bit. Just like the fanbase that supports them, there's nothing distinguinshing them.

Also, I don't have guilty pleasures. The fact that you do contradicts your elitism claim.

Originally posted by The Core
I can't do this one. Screaming is screaming. It only gets louder, more shrill, and less tolerable.

Screaming is screaming? Yes, because Ihsahn, Dani Filth and Jake Bannon all sound like triplets.

Originally posted by The Core
Well, then we're going in circles, lol. Korn felt the need to change because of so many copycats. Then again, necessary evolution gave way to outside inspiration, and they've totally lost their touch. That said, I don't know of any other band in the past decade that has shook up the genre hard enough to force bands to change.

The problem there is the fact that it's the Metallica fan syndrome all over again. "Let's play metal because we like metal.", without any forethought as to whether or not they're good. Everyone thinks they have to wear a Maiden shirt and love Judas Priest, it's no wonder metal, as a genre, isn't collectively evolving.

I mean you've got Mastodon, who are pretty much leading the way in my opinion, with regards to pure heavy metal (Though it's not traditional). Then bands like Opeth, Emperor/Ihsahn and Tool (I guess) who are on their own level above most. Norma Jean, Dillinger etc. Then bands are being shit. Bands like Bullet for My Valentine and now Trivium are so concerned with being seen as true metalheads that they don't realise it's pointless to affiliate to one genre for the sake of it.

That's why Dillinger do deserve respect, they incorporate rock, jazz, etc. I've never said "I'm a metal fan.", because I'm not. I'm a fan of some bands that make metal music.

The same applies to most areas of music, doing it because you like it is fine...but you still have to be able and have something to give. Norma Jean won't be reinventing the wheel any time soon, but it's good music, but we need bands to be exceptional in order to push things forward. With the current wave of mediocrity in metal, it's in danger of not happening.

-AC

He's got a strong voice. Take into consideration how many black men have broke the heavy metal scene, and maintained the bands following. KSE was mediocre before Howard Jones came along. Now, with his stylings, they're all over the place. He's an important figure in the industry, and that's factual, proven by comparing record sales.



What I said still never questioned your cred. I'm not even trying to break down your reasoning, because there's no need. I wish I knew what a lot of bands appeal was, namely bands such as them, but I won't lose sleep if I never "get it". (Haha) Converge are a hardcore band with extreme vocals. DEP are in a league of their own, they're very much an extreme/art band. I can appreciate the art, regardless if it appeals to me, but I can't appreciate the way it's put out there, and that's OK too because it wasn't intended for me. That's all I was ever getting at.




I'm not making any decisions, I'm stating an opinion, just like you or anyone else. The difference is, I'm not pushing it as if it's gospel. There is nothing to support any "fact" that a band is good other than someone's personal conviction. It's all subjective. There's no way to "prove" a band is good. There just isn't, so everyone, not including me, takes popular opinion as fact. My appreciation or dislike for them not withstanding. If a band is just as good live as they are in the studio, which means take away ProTools, that may lend to a more positive opinion. Doesn't make it fact, however.

..besides, nobody would be stupid enough to compare a guitar virtuoso to a guitar player in a flavor of the month rock band guitarist. Well, atleast I'd hope not.




Crediblity, no. Taste, maybe. I like to learn about people and how they enjoy what they listen to, and maybe even sway my opinion on things. That's who I am. I tried to enjoy both bands stuff, but I can't. It's no longer by choice, I don't like what I was exposed to. I'm usually the first one to say to people that say bands "suck" that they probably don't have the talent or resources to do what they do, so just shut up. That's a level of respectability I've always maintained.




I know this, too. Media respents true musicians by calling them "music artists" for a reason.

I "get it" just fine, and I thought that was pretty evident by now that I am capable of seperating art (DEP), music (Converge), and straight up entertainment (Tenacious D).




Who sounds a lot like KSE to you, personally. That's something we could work with. Not that I ever use sales to gauge a bands success, but 80,000 copies in 21 days is nothing to sneeze at, considering they sold 110,000 of their first album to date.



I say it as to suggest I may like a track or two by bands I otherwise don't appreciate. It's a mild contradiction, only to get across that I'm not a fan of the band.




Like I said, it can only get more shrill (Filth), and less tolerable (Bannon). I hardly consider Ihsahn a "screamer". He's a vocalist. His new stuff sounds like Rob Halford with a head cold, though. I heard a lot of good things about Emporer, but I'm not big on black metal, personally.




I think Korn's change wasn't because of anything you'd consider artistic merit. I think they outright sold out. Metallica, a long time ago, I came to realize had a change of heart. Wether it be personal, spiritual, or they just got tired of the same old same old. Metal, on the whole, has been stuck in 1st gear for a long time.



Mastodon are very much heavy metal, and what I appreciate most about their music is that it's just plain heavy, imposing metal guitars. There are a lot of heavy metal fans that settle for medicority, and Trivium's success lies mainly in that they're the worldest greatest Metallica tribute band, giving people what they've been missing for so long.



I respect what they do, and again, I get it, it's just that being the person I am, I appreciate structure. It's like a musical OCD I have, and I don't think I am missing out on a lot.



It's about time I revisited Norma Jean. I was turned off by their vocals, like I was with Glassjaw. I'm too picky for my own good, but at the same time I don't feel, as a music lover, I should make compromises just to have something to listen to and enjoy, nor settle for mediocrity. I think you know what I mean, there.

Originally posted by The Core
Because...



Welcome to the Music Forums. You're in a debate thread with AC and C-Dic. Be warned that we're opinionated, and my opinion is that Converge isn't "good" with or without screaming. I bit my tongue on Refused, because I hate whiny, preachy politcal punk music. Let's leave their actual music out of it. My question was posed, not because I think its wrong that people dislike Converge, but because it seems odd to me that this thred went from discussing screamng, to being a place to come bash one single band.

And just because you personally dont like Refused, it doesnt make them a "whiny" band. They happened to be a band that were far ahead of their years, and set the stage for bands such as Protest the Hero, who, if Im not mistaken, you like.

Originally posted by The Core
He's got a strong voice.

Need I say more? No.

Originally posted by The Core
Take into consideration how many black men have broke the heavy metal scene, and maintained the bands following.

I don't give a shit about race. Black, white, yellow, green, orange; It matters none to me. I don't think he's good because he's not, to me. Not saying he's a horrid singer, I'm saying he's mediocre. That's the problem with "metal" fans. They're cool with bands being good ENOUGH. I'm not, really. Norma Jean are good ENOUGH, but I wouldn't listen to another Norma Jean esque band, because I've already got that covered.

Originally posted by The Core
KSE was mediocre before Howard Jones came along. Now, with his stylings, they're all over the place. He's an important figure in the industry, and that's factual, proven by comparing record sales.

Sales mean nothing to me. I actually prefer Killswitch's stuff with Jesse, though.

Originally posted by The Core
What I said still never questioned your cred. I'm not even trying to break down your reasoning, because there's no need. I wish I knew what a lot of bands appeal was, namely bands such as them, but I won't lose sleep if I never "get it". (Haha) Converge are a hardcore band with extreme vocals. DEP are in a league of their own, they're very much an extreme/art band. I can appreciate the art, regardless if it appeals to me, but I can't appreciate the way it's put out there, and that's OK too because it wasn't intended for me. That's all I was ever getting at.

Fair point.

Originally posted by The Core
I'm not making any decisions, I'm stating an opinion, just like you or anyone else. The difference is, I'm not pushing it as if it's gospel. There is nothing to support any "fact" that a band is good other than someone's personal conviction. It's all subjective. There's no way to "prove" a band is good. There just isn't, so everyone, not including me, takes popular opinion as fact. My appreciation or dislike for them not withstanding. If a band is just as good live as they are in the studio, which means take away ProTools, that may lend to a more positive opinion. Doesn't make it fact, however.

It's not all subjective. It's only subjective as far as preference, which admittedly is all that's worth discussing, but you can't prefer who is better at something. You can say "I think Paul McCartney is a better bassist than Geddy Lee because I like him.". He's not, fact. You could say "I like Paul McCartney more.".

Originally posted by The Core
..besides, nobody would be stupid enough to compare a guitar virtuoso to a guitar player in a flavor of the month rock band guitarist. Well, atleast I'd hope not.

Try most metal band fans nowadays.

Originally posted by The Core
Crediblity, no. Taste, maybe. I like to learn about people and how they enjoy what they listen to, and maybe even sway my opinion on things. That's who I am. I tried to enjoy both bands stuff, but I can't. It's no longer by choice, I don't like what I was exposed to. I'm usually the first one to say to people that say bands "suck" that they probably don't have the talent or resources to do what they do, so just shut up. That's a level of respectability I've always maintained.

As long as you can respect or at least acknowledge the fact that these bands know what they're doing.

Originally posted by The Core
I know this, too. Media respents true musicians by calling them "music artists" for a reason.

I "get it" just fine, and I thought that was pretty evident by now that I am capable of seperating art (DEP), music (Converge), and straight up entertainment (Tenacious D).

That's fair enough also, I know what you're on about now. Ironically, Tenacious D are good at just making music aside from technique and such.

Originally posted by The Core
Who sounds a lot like KSE to you, personally. That's something we could work with. Not that I ever use sales to gauge a bands success, but 80,000 copies in 21 days is nothing to sneeze at, considering they sold 110,000 of their first album to date.

Go look up 50 Cent's debut album sales.

As for soundalikes, if you get down to the band alone, pick a name. High speed, high volume metal bands like Still Remains etc. I can admit that Howard Jones is the only element of that band setting them REMOTELY apart from the bands they're in with now, but as far as the band themselves go, they're simply not different enough for me to say "Yeah I'll listen to this.".

It's not a matter of direct soundalikes, it's a matter of not sounding different enough.

Originally posted by The Core
I say it as to suggest I may like a track or two by bands I otherwise don't appreciate. It's a mild contradiction, only to get across that I'm not a fan of the band.

Well...there's not much point is there?

Originally posted by The Core
Like I said, it can only get more shrill (Filth), and less tolerable (Bannon). I hardly consider Ihsahn a "screamer". He's a vocalist. His new stuff sounds like Rob Halford with a head cold, though. I heard a lot of good things about Emporer, but I'm not big on black metal, personally.

His new stuff? Rob Halford wishes he has Ihsahn's talent, he concedes that the man is a genius himself. You hear what you hear, though, I suppose.

Emperor are hardly a pure black metal band anymore, like all the best bands...they do stuff that can be attributed to many genres. You should check out the album Prometheus: The Discipline of Fire and Demise.

Originally posted by The Core
I think Korn's change wasn't because of anything you'd consider artistic merit. I think they outright sold out. Metallica, a long time ago, I came to realize had a change of heart. Wether it be personal, spiritual, or they just got tired of the same old same old. Metal, on the whole, has been stuck in 1st gear for a long time.

Mastodon are very much heavy metal, and what I appreciate most about their music is that it's just plain heavy, imposing metal guitars. There are a lot of heavy metal fans that settle for medicority, and Trivium's success lies mainly in that they're the worldest greatest Metallica tribute band, giving people what they've been missing for so long.

When everyone was dissing Trivium to counteract the sheer overrating of the band, I was saying; "Give them a shot at least.", as I did. They've genuinely decided to become a Metallica tribute band though, and it's just disgusting.

Originally posted by The Core
I respect what they do, and again, I get it, it's just that being the person I am, I appreciate structure. It's like a musical OCD I have, and I don't think I am missing out on a lot.

Everything has structure, or it'd just fall apart. Some of the greatest pieces of architecture began as wacked out drawings that people probably looked at and thought "Never going to work.". The last time people thought that about Dillinger was when they put out Calculating Infinity, which proved a lot of people wrong.

Originally posted by The Core
It's about time I revisited Norma Jean. I was turned off by their vocals, like I was with Glassjaw. I'm too picky for my own good, but at the same time I don't feel, as a music lover, I should make compromises just to have something to listen to and enjoy, nor settle for mediocrity. I think you know what I mean, there.

Our idea of mediocrity is different, so I can't comment on it, but naturally it's the same view. I notice you like The Birthday Massacre, a band I really like, but I realise they're honestly nothing special. Just a simple band making simple, really enjoyable music. However, I like them a LOT more since I saw them live, because it was one of the most fun shows I've attended.

Mediocrity can appear different in context. Sometimes bands compensate for what they lack on record for what they do on stage. I've always liked Foo Fighters, but again, liked them more after I saw them live.

-AC