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I'd personally go with Kas'im.

Not feelin' it.

Yoda's command of the Force seems to be much greater - given that he is the most powerful Jedi prior to Luke; I'm told that that Kas'im's lack of overwhelming strength in the Force was mentioned in the book.

No offense, but Kas'im, even though he mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat (an impressive feat), is no match for Yoda in terms of the Force. Here's how I see it:
Lightsaber skills- Yoda- 9 Kas'im- 9.3
Force powers- Yoda- 9 Kas'im- 7? maybe 6?
Overall- Yoda- 9 Kas'im- 7, 8?

Yoda takes this.

I dunno much about Mr. Kas'im, though.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not feelin' it.

Yoda's command of the Force seems to be much greater - given that he is the most powerful Jedi prior to Luke; I'm told that that Kas'im's lack of overwhelming strength in the Force was mentioned in the book.

Force=Yoda
Saber Combat=Kas'im
Overall=Yoda

Depends on Kas'im's strength in the Force. If he's nothing considerable, Yoda may beat him.

In a straight sword fight, Kas'im may take it.

Put it this way, Kas'im was able to defend against an energy attack, and redirect it, and its redirection was able to collapse the entire Rakatan temple. Imagine how powerful the blast was head on, that kind of raw power is beyond Yoda, and Kas'im was able to not only defend against it, but redirect it. So I really can't see Yoda winning with the force, it's gonna come down to sabers which I can see Kas'im winning.

Also, I just wanted to say that I'm done with the insults, so let's try to get past that and go back to debating civilly, it's a part of the reason why I made this thread.

Hmm. Well, I haven't read the book, so I can't really gage where Kas'im sits for myself.

To make a case for Kas'im winning in sabers, I'm just going to have to pull this quote out again:

'Within the first few passes Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. After years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.'

So Kas'im had spent years mastering all seven forms, for all the primary types of saber - that alone is huge. But then he spent decades perfecting the forms and sequences for each form, so he basically did what Mace did with Juyo (in regards to the moves and sequences) to all 7 forms. That's even greater than just mastering them, he expanded on them, in a way he kinda created 7 new forms, and he was stated to switch up between the styles while in combat, so his fighting style would be very much alien to Yoda in combat, I doubt he would be able to anticipate all of Kas'im's masterful moves and sequences.

I'm not certain who'd win but I'd probably go with Yoda. I'd put Kas'im on par with Mace Windu.

Was that lightsnake by any chance? I can't say I've come across anything like that, but if anything, it might have been in comparison to Bane's strength in the force, who most likely has the highest potential in the whole of SW with the exception of Anakin.

Originally posted by The Planet
Was that lightsnake by any chance? I can't say I've come across anything like that, but if anything, it might have been in comparison to Bane's strength in the force, who most likely has the highest potential in the whole of SW with the exception of Anakin.

Bane likely had the highest potential next to Anakin? Wow, I have 1 word for you.

Sorry, DS, no swearing in pictures... -REX

Given how quickly he grew as powerful as he did, I'd say it's very likely. It's also strongly hinted that he was the sith'ari, who is basically the sith's chosen one.

And that's just talking about the force, I'd say that it's likely Bane may have been the most prodigious lightsaber user ever. Just wait, in a few books time he's gonna be even more uber than he was in PoD, he'll overtake Sidious for sure, and most probably Luke, unless he suffers a similar fate to Anakin's.

Edit - Lol! That sure was quick, Rex.

Originally posted by The Planet
Given how quickly he grew as powerful as he did, I'd say it's very likely. It's also strongly hinted that he was the sith'ari, who is basically the sith's chosen one.

And that's just talking about the force, I'd say that it's likely Bane may have been the most prodigious lightsaber user ever. Just wait, in a few books time he's gonna be even more uber than he was in PoD, he'll overtake Sidious for sure, and most probably Luke, unless he suffers a similar fate to Anakin's.

Edit - Lol! That sure was quick, Rex.

Rex, how can I not call Bull**** on crap like this? Come on.

How about you stop being a troll, and join the discussion. Refute it, if you can.

Originally posted by The Planet
How about you stop being a troll, and join the discussion. Refute it, if you can.

You clearly don't know what a troll is, otherwise you'd understand that there isn't a bigger one than you.

Refute what? You brought up some bullshit that not only is ridiculous, but laughable. Why would I have to prove anything when you're doing a great job of making a fool out of yourself.

Keep it up, troll. Though, I will say, in your defence, if I were you, I wouldn't want to get in a debate with me either, so I forgive you buddy!

Planet, your predictions about Bane as far as his potential and power are nothing more than unsupported assumptions. You are free to make them, but it becomes a problem when you try to pass them off as something concrete in an argument.

Anakin is the Chosen One, created by the Force itself to restore balance - a future and a responsibility that supercedes the light and dark sides. That alone implies a command of the Force that is unparalleled. You can speculate on Bane's potential, but nothing indicates that it comes close to anything Anakin has - who is twice the potential of Sidious.

On the subject of Sidious himself, Lightsnake did provide a quote from one of the sourcebooks (I will have to check on which specific one), which states that he is "the strongest of Bane's order". Considering how Bane himself is in the order, his strength in the dark side surpasses Bane's.

Labyrinth of Evil refers to Sidious: "the dark side had been gaining strength, waiting for the one who would be born to embrace it fully, and become its dedicated instrument. This was Sidious: powerful enough to hide in plain sight."

(I don't have the book with me, tonight, but I did remember that quote - it was one of many).

Sidious is more powerful than Bane. Especially by Dark Empire, where the Ancient Sith note that Palpatine gave himself completely to the dark side long ago.

Unsupported? They are supported by the list of prodigious feats bane does in PoD.



And Bane is quite clearly the sith'ari, the sith's equivalent.



Well he performed far greater feats than Anakin did with less training, granted he was older.

But anyways, I have accepted that Anakin is probably the one person who has a higher potential. I'm arguing 2nd highest, here.



I own both the Dark Empire Sourcebook and the Darkside sourcebook, nothing remotely similar to that is in either. Really, half the stuff that Lightsnake claims is in there clearly doesn't exist.



This speaks for his dedication to the darkside and his ability to mastermind the rise to power of the sith. It's not really referring to martial combat power.



DE Sidious is more powerful than PoD Bane, I agree, but I'm speculating what Darth Bane will become, not what he is in his most recent depictions. Now let's use RotS Sidious and compare him to PoD Darth Bane, he was older, had far more time to study the darkside, had access to as much as Bane, yet Bane at this stage has still displayed much more power. I think it's pretty obvious that his potential is far above Palpatine's.

What a joke, keep trying though. I wouldn't even bother getting into a debate with a half wit.

Sexy, just leave, LOL! Give up already, take it easy.

If I have to, Planet, I'll do extensive research in compiling a major fact sheet for Sidious in terms of achievements and powers as far as his strength in the Force is concerned.

I can guarentee you that his list will put Bane's in a deep shadow.



Has this been confirmed? Where, and by what source?

Also, you have to remember:

a.) Is the Sith'ari created by the Force itself?

b.) Is the Sith'ari as great as the Chosen One? Last I checked, the Chosen One eradicated all of Bane's - and Sidious's - work.



Lol, Luke did greater things at a younger age than Anakin, and there's nothing to indicate that Luke has Anakin's exact potential, and he's not the Chosen One. Point?



You haven't the means to sufficiently argue it. That is the underlying point.



Is that right? Well, personally, I haven't known Lightsnake to lie to me. But we'll find out.



This speaks that his depth in the dark side and strength in it seems to supercede that of any Sith before him. Sidious's raw power was so intense that it was killing him. In terms of achievements? Sidious is the greatest Sith Lord ever. But, I am arguing martial power, and this seems to support it.



By a hell of a lot. Destroying a fleet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> destroying a dilapidated temple.



I disagree. Again, I can compile a list of crap on Palpatine if need be. It will take time, though.

Escape, again I was under the impression that GL stated that Luke had Anakin's potential.

Looking forward to it. But remember, this is potential, and there is still much of Bane's story to be explored. There is also much more source material on Sidious, so he's bound to have achieved more martial feats.



Not confirmed, but PoD heavily implies it, many of the sith believed Bane to be the one. Bane also is one of the few who applies, and is the strongest candidate.



Prove that being created by the force necessarily makes Anakin the strongest in the force, quantify and substantiate what being created by the force is.



Not as great, but clearly the next best thing. Again, just to remind you, I never denied that Anakin is most likely the strongest in the force, I just believe Bane to be second.



Bullshit! Luke did jack in his early years, he was nothing, he only really becomes powerful by DE.



My point is that the age of a force user, and the amount of training they have had in respect to what they have achieved at that point is a good way to calculate potential.



I do. When I have time, I will post a bunch of feats from PoD (can't be bothered right now, takes too much time to type stuff out of PoD).



Yes, that's right.



Wrong! Here's the exact quote:

'In self-exile for a thousand years, the Sith had not merely been waiting for an appropriate time to reemerge and exact revenge, but for the birth of one strong enough to embrace the dark side fully and become its dedicated instrument. This was Sidious: powerful enough to hide in plain sight. Powerful enough to instruct his apprentice, Dooku, to expose him, and still remain hidden from the Jedi.'

B1. 'Strong enough to embrace the darkside fully' - quite clearly speaks for his devotion and commitment.

B2. Speaks for his secrecy and guile.

Nothing in that quote speaks for raw power.



There are actually two ways of looking at this, a good way, and a bad way.

G - Sidious' strength in the darkside was so strong that no human body could contain it.

B - Sidious' body wasn't strong enough to contain his strength in the darkside - could be related to control, aging, willpower etc.

However, it's not surprising that you would interpret it in a good way.



Well the force storm is more of a ritual that doesn't speak too greatly for actual power (kinda like Lumiya's force phantoms), and it cannot be used in small scale combat. And Bane's attack was far more powerful than people seem to realise. It demanded so much of Bane's strength (pretty much all of it) that it drained his body for a short while afterwards. The wave of energy was directed at Kas'im, Kas'im put up a shield and blocked it, and redirected a portion of the energy out towards the temple, which collapsed it. So it was the actual redirection of a portion of the energy attack that collapsed the entire temple. The blast full on would have been much more powerful (the fact that Kas'im defended himself against it is partly why I rate him so highly).

There's also the fact that Darth Bane force pulled a moon out of orbit shortly after PoD.



Sure, go ahead. I'll do the same for Bane.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, again I was under the impression that GL stated that Luke had Anakin's potential.

Nope, it was a quote taken out of context.

Bane is a light saber prodigy now? Bull Shit.

Nothing implies Bane is a prodigy with a saber, what does he do ALL throughout PoD, give himself over to the Dark Side and memorize forms. Oh yeah he's teh greatest. He owns Sirak because he gave himself over to the dark side and was simply stronger then him, what happens when he fights someone who is NOT a student and who uses an actual light saber not a stupid poison sword, he gets his ass beat. In his fist duel with a saber he memorizes Kas'im's forms and movements thats the ONLY reason he was able to keep up with him, then when Kas'im busts out his Jar Kari Bane panics and proceeds to get WTFpwned.

Now, how in the HELL does that make him a prodigy? Since when does beating students as a student then getting WTFpwned all of a sudden make you a saber prodigy?

Originally posted by The Planet
Nope, it was a quote taken out of context.

You're the last person that should tell me what is out of context. And even if Bane WAS the sith'ari(he or Revan could have been), that doesn't mean a damn thing in terms of power. Sidious WAS the darkside. Sidious by TPM was more powerful than Bane, and his power increased.

You're missing the point; you can't argue potential. You are in the dark, trying to feel your way around. Bane's potential is complete speculation and there's nothing to support - nothing - that he has "the second highest potential ever".

If so, lay it out. Otherwise, all you have is your opinion, which is irrelevent to a debate, which is decided by evidence.



Please. Revan could also have been a candidate, as it is his actions which directly influence Bane (much as I hate to admit it), and if it weren't for Revan, it isn't likely that Bane would have been a great Sith Lord. Sidious himself could have also been a candidate, as the dark side was said to have grown stronger under him, he toppled the Jedi, crushed the Republic, and instituted the most powerful military regime in galactic history.



Quantify? Substantiate? Why would I have to? Why don't you quantify and substantiate the bullshit that you're arguing for Bane, and then get back to me?

Anakin was created by the Force. His midichlorian count surpassed the most powerful Jedi before him - Yoda. Revenge of the Sith, Labyrinth of Evil, and Dark Rendezvous all state how great Anakin's potential is. Yoda says that the Force was the strongest with Anakin than it has been in any Jedi. It is also been stated that the Force was as strong in Anakin as it had been in any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.



You have so much to support that...



No, bullshit to you. He was able to defeat Vader, who is 80% of Sidious. During Dark Empire, he was able to do outrageous shit that surpassed Anakin - except he didn't have the Jedi Order to learn from. His skills are, quite frankly, an example of his intuition and latent talent.



Bingo: Luke > Bane right there.



Looking forward to it.



We'll find out.



WRONG!

"but for the birth of one strong enough to embrace the dark side fully and become its dedicated instrument."

That speaks for dedication? Rofl. Guess you missed the word "strong". Speaks for power. Not determination or devotion, but skill and power.

As for the other one, are you serious? Powerful. Please. Nute Gunray was secretive and possessed guile. Wouldn't exactly describe him as "powerful".

There are actually two ways of looking at this, a good way, and a bad way.



Yup. And considering his clones suffered the same fate...

"Flesh can't sustain this great power" were his words, I believe.



Bingo. The dark side was eating his body. That just goes to show how strong the dark side was with him. And, you're seriously not going to accuse Sidious - the greatest and most brilliant Sith Lord - of having a lack of willpower.

I hope you're not that desperate.



The logical way, you mean.



Force Storm is ritualistic? Please. He can create it any time he wanted to without an intense amount of effort. Bullshit.

Originally posted by Gideon You're missing the point; you can't argue potential. You are in the dark, trying to feel your way around. Bane's potential is complete speculation and there's nothing to support - nothing - that he has "the second highest potential ever".

Bullshit! We can easily gauge his potential by how powerful he became in such a short amount of time. Don't be silly!



Please, arguments have already been made, it's nice how you ignored my RotS Sidious and PoD Darth Bane comparison.



Neither Revan nor Sidious apply, they didn't destroy the sith, and through their destruction, make them stronger than ever... Bane is the most likely candidate, followed by Anakin.



Please Escape, I don't need to, the stuff I say speaks for itself. You on the other hand are just being vague, you need to quantify and substantiate, please explain how being created by the force would make him the strongest in the force ever.



All in-universe explanations, I see. But really, this doesn't matter. I never argued that Bane > Anakin in potential, because I'd be arguing against canon.



Why thank you!

No, bullshit to you. He was able to defeat Vader, who is 80% of Sidious. During Dark Empire,

1. He defeated Vader in a lightsaber duel, OT Vader is a weak ass pathetic duelist, he sucked.

2. Vader was holding back.

Defeating weak ass Vader in a duel where he was holding back is nothing special.

And the 80% refers to potential, I never argued that Vader wasn't damn strong with the force, but it's irrelevant here as he was holding back in his battle with Luke, only using his saber abilities, which sucked.



He had at least one jedi holocron to learn from, as well as a few force wielding alien races.



Bullshit! Bane became a top 10 force user in less than three years, Luke only becomes as powerful as the latest Bane we have seen by midway through NJO, and that's with far more experience and training.



Oh yes you are!



Oh we will.



O RLY!!?



Bullshit! 'Strong enough to embrace the darkside'. 'Become it's dedicated instrument'. This speaks only for dedication, strong in this sense means that he actually had what it takes to do what he must for the legacy of the sith and darkside.



If his secrecy and guile was so considerable that he had the ability to dupe the jedi council for years and ensure the destruction of the jedi order, then yes, I would call him powerful, even though he would get wasted like a fly in combat.







Please, Escape! You're looking as this in a very narrow minded fanboyish way. Did it not ever occur to you that his body was simply too old and weak to contain the darkside?



Well it's a large scale attack that can't be used in combat.

'I have learned that Anger and Will, joined together, are the greatest Power.

I have learned to meditate Anger and Will with clarity and precision, and I have learned to open the hidden reservoirs of Dark Side Power.

Anger concentrated by will in the vital center of the body, creates a portal from which vast energies are released - the energies of the Dark Side of the Force.

Standing watch with my mind, in my meditation of anger, I have slain my enemies from great distances, through the Dark Side Power that permeates the galaxy. I have created lightning, and unleashed its destructive fire.

Using this knowledge, I can unleash the Dark Side energies that are all around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.'

^Seems pretty ritualistic to me.



Proof?

The Planet, have you ever considered not wasting valuable text? You have no argument.

Originally posted by The Planet
Please, Escape! You're looking as this in a very narrow minded fanboyish way. Did it not ever occur to you that his body was simply too old and weak to contain the darkside?

Then how come every quote on the subject focuses on Palpatines immense power, and not his old body?

Yoda wins this one, hands down...

*Puts TD on ignore list*

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Then how come every quote on the subject focuses on Palpatines immense power, and not his old body?

How about you provide a quote on the subject.

Haven't you embarassed yourself enough? Honestly, debating is for intelligent, articulate people, not angry prepubescent outcasts.

Did someone say something?

Planet, don't be a jerk. You suck at it.

Wow! Sexy? Himo? Only just saw the connection. Interesting...

Originally posted by The Planet
Wow! Sexy? Himo? Only just saw the connection. Interesting...

Btw, when I get back to my books, we'll continue the debate.

how is this even a debate? You have an unintelligent pissant taking up valuable text with his indignant and incoherent lather. It's more of a joke than anything else, but at some point enough is enough.

Now Sexy, that was just mean. I know Gideon appears to be a huge joker and the typical class clown, but that doesn't mean he has no feelings. Take it back, now!

I rest my case, child.

Wow, what is it with people insulting others with 'child' on this. Seriously dude, are you like middle aged? 'Cause that insult was lame, and your humour is kinda dry.

Lol, I mean obviously Kas'im stomps. Yoda only contended with one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, that's a pretty shit feat.

Originally posted by darthbane77
Lol, I mean obviously Kas'im stomps. Yoda only contended with one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history, that's a pretty shit feat.
U r right

lol

Most of them were banned for this atrocity.