Does God love Rapists?

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FistOfThe North
Why.

Sure they've sinned and we are all sinners but God should forsake these types of scum.

debbiejo
You're really bored aren't you?

finti
well if they accept jesus as a saviour and confess their sins they should enter the glorious place of heaven.......hmmmm aint christianity a beautiful piece of crap, just as it is with the other two major religions around, one blindfolded and one ignorant what a beautiful piece of F***** BS that triplet religions makes

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by debbiejo
You're really bored aren't you?

i am. sorry.

I'm over here at my girlfriends home for the weekend. I just put her to sleep and and im tired of playing xbox360. Go figure.

debbiejo
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
i am. sorry.

I'm over here at my girlfriends home for the weekend. I just put her to sleep and and im tired of playing xbox360. Go figure. You killed her??

You shouldn't put people to sleep!! Not without their permission...You did get it right?

finti
sometimes we men work you women so hard you need to sleep, you know riding the hobby horse takes it s toll Happy Dance

debbiejo
Or women fall asleep from boredom.

finti
well I understand listening to your own ever going babbling about everything and nada can be tiresome even for your own sex

debbiejo
That's what I tell the guys......... laughing out loud

finti
and when do you wake them up

debbiejo
laughing out loud

NO

finti
hmmmmmmmmmm just think one have to kiss you to make you shut up then laughing out loud

debbiejo
Kisses work but................

I use them all the time for that purpose..........lol

finti
well I have another way thoug whic works fine,.........................way more naughty way but good for me smile evil face eek!

debbiejo
Don't make me gag..........You're sick. sick roll eyes (sarcastic)

finti
the trick is not to gag deb, you must be out of practice evil face

debbiejo
That's just sick............It's not ice cream ya know......

finti
well nor is bailys irish cream yet that one goes down like it was the last beverage on earth,.......... and come on prawn in liquid form.............

debbiejo
Don't talk about Baileys..........Bailieys taste good.......

finti
its just like tequilla just swallow it and think forward about the next drink

Alliance
I don't know what the heck is going on so Happy Dance

finti
we havocing this thread with sexual innuendos that gay can compare with evil face

Alliance
laughing out loud what?

debbiejo
Originally posted by finti
its just like tequilla just swallow it and think forward about the next drink Only with a very good buzz first.........Ask Alliance.........he seems to want to know...........

Hey Alliance........what do ya think?

He's an atheist like you..............you should be buds.

finti
so deb you asking alliance to give blow job and then swallow

debbiejo
Yeah. he's like you right? Aren't all atheists wanting this........
Be buds.............you might like each other very much.

Alliance
WOAH! OK. Lets stop and breathe.

1. I am atheist.
2. Atheist does not mean homosexual.
3. "Buds" does not mean homosexual.

(4.) Given the fact that finti has a pentagram...I'm judging he's not atheist.

Try Urizen. If you dress up as Jesus, you might get a good roleplay smile

Adam_PoE

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Why.

Sure they've sinned and we are all sinners but God should forsake these types of scum.

God does not do; we do. The problem you are faced with is because of the Christian mythology you live in. Free your self from that delusion and you will see that a rapists gets the karma he deserves.

JaehSkywalker
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Why.

Sure they've sinned and we are all sinners but God should forsake these types of scum.

He loves the person but hates the person's sins. smile

debbiejo
Originally posted by Alliance
WOAH! OK. Lets stop and breathe.

1. I am atheist.
2. Atheist does not mean homosexual.
3. "Buds" does not mean homosexual.

(4.) Given the fact that finti has a pentagram...I'm judging he's not atheist.

Try Urizen. If you dress up as Jesus, you might get a good roleplay smile [/QUOTE

Oh pentagramology.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by debbiejo
Or women fall asleep from boredom.

na. it wasn't due to boredome, i can assure you. trust.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Why.


Answer:

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
we are all sinners

lil bitchiness
I am not totally sure what this thread is getting at, but it is freaking me out a little.

Anyway, it is not just 'God' who loves rapist. A mother of a rapist still loves her son, the rapist might have children who will still love their father, and/or he might have a wife who still loves him even though what he did.

So...this is kind of a good-bad argument which is rather subjective.

And I don't believe in God that cares what you do, or if you pray to him so....I cannot apply it to this.

FistOfThe North
^ sick love doesn't count.

lil bitchiness
wtf is a sick love?

FistOfThe North
loving a rapist is sick love

lil bitchiness
no expression

LethalFemme
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
loving a rapist is sick love

Are you talking about loving a rapist BECAUSE they're a rapist or rather the person behind it?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by LethalFemme
Are you talking about loving a rapist BECAUSE they're a rapist or rather the person behind it?

I don't think he distinguishes.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
loving a rapist is sick love

Meh - God loves all people, even the one's who don't love him, or who don't obey him. If God wasn't all-loving - we'd all be destroyed at this point. Anyway - if one has ever consistently thought about having sex with a woman who they don't know who is married, and/or doesn't share that same sexual desire - than they would be a rapist in God's eyes. Still - the bible is about forgiveness with repentance. If an individual repents of their sins - despite how vile the sin may be, they can be forgiven(however - there will still be consequences ensued for the sin by the sinner.)

LethalFemme
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I don't think he distinguishes.

Then his post is stupid.shrug

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance


(4.) Given the fact that finti has a pentagram...I'm judging he's not atheist.



He probably is. I think hes some Norwegian Satanic black metaller who thinks Satanism and Atheism are the same thing

Bardock42
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Why.

Sure they've sinned and we are all sinners but God should forsake these types of scum.

Would be hypocritical of him, though.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I don't think he distinguishes.

And I think you can distinguish.

The person behind any rapists is a sick fcuk. I don't care if a racist is a good guy on the inside. I'd still recommend any rapist to hang by the neck until dead.

Bardock42
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
And I think you can distinguish.

The person behind any rapists is a sick fcuk. I don't care if a racist is a good guy on the inside. I'd still recommend any rapist to hang by the neck until dead.

Dude, what the hell, was that a freudian slip?

Anyways, you may very well think so, but God does not. God goes by its rules. Not yours.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
And I think you can distinguish.

The person behind any rapists is a sick fcuk. I don't care if a racist is a good guy on the inside. I'd still recommend any rapist to hang by the neck until dead.

No you don't distingush.

It has nothing to do with what he is inside. It has to do with the subjection of belief of who is to be loved.

Mother loves its child no matter what he/she has done.

debbiejo
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
wtf is a sick love? Why do you make me laugh??

laughing out loud

Bardock42
Originally posted by debbiejo
Why do you make me laugh??

laughing out loud

Cause she is funny.

Anyways, can we focus on Adam's part there? I mean...God says it himself, doesn't he?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
Nothing wrong with a rapist...even less when he's not discovered.

debbiejo
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
na. it wasn't due to boredome, i can assure you. trust. Can you tell us a little more. Alliance and finti want know.... smile

And they can have many wives.......so the guy better be carful........He could have a whole harem....This explains much .....Hmmmmm

Oh, and David and his many wives.........

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
loving a rapist is sick love

What about loving a murderer ?

debbiejo
If god is love then god loves all regardless and without consequence or conditions....Otherwise it would be conditional love and that would make god have emotional control issues.. Like humans which would be a flaw.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by debbiejo
If god is love then god loves all regardless and without consequence or conditions....Otherwise it would be conditional love and that would make god have emotional control issues.. Like humans which would be a flaw.


That is the God of the Bible....flawed, human, and conditional...

Nellinator
God's love is not conditional.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Nellinator
God's love is not conditional.

Oh, it is though. to be fair. It is.

Alliance
It is very much conditional.

Kelly_LS
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Why.

Sure they've sinned and we are all sinners but God should forsake these types of scum.
Why should God love people who do such hanus(sp) crimes? I mean yeah, God created those people, God gave those people the choice of living life the way they wanted to, but God didn't create those people to do such stupid and idiotic crimes. At least that's my opinion, and I'll probably get bashed for it.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Kelly_LS
Why should God love people who do such hanus(sp) crimes? I mean yeah, God created those people, God gave those people the choice of living life the way they wanted to, but God didn't create those people to do such stupid and idiotic crimes. At least that's my opinion, and I'll probably get bashed for it.

Because you are wrong. Because God said he loves all people. Also, because he created them all and is all knowing he would have known that they will do it so it is his fault anyways.

And just because you think Rape is wrong doesn't make it wrong. God obviously doesn't find it to be that bad of a crime anyways. Not as bad as homosexuality.

Kelly_LS
Originally posted by Bardock42
Because you are wrong. Because God said he loves all people. Also, because he created them all and is all knowing he would have known that they will do it so it is his fault anyways.

And just because you think Rape is wrong doesn't make it wrong. God obviously doesn't find it to be that bad of a crime anyways. Not as bad as homosexuality.
Well I didn't say that he didn't/doesn't love those people, I just asked "Why should he?" And I don't really think there is any wrong answer to this topic, but maybe that is just me? But are you saying that rape is not wrong? I'm not positively sure that I believe everything that is in the Bible, therefore I don't believe that God thinks homosexuality is a sin, otherwise why would the people be BORN homo? God doesn't create a baby and say "Well, I'm going to make you gay just so I can hate you." you know?

Nellinator
God doesn't hate homosexuals. He does not hate anyone.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Kelly_LS
Well I didn't say that he didn't/doesn't love those people, I just asked "Why should he?" And I don't really think there is any wrong answer to this topic, but maybe that is just me? But are you saying that rape is not wrong? I'm not positively sure that I believe everything that is in the Bible, therefore I don't believe that God thinks homosexuality is a sin, otherwise why would the people be BORN homo? God doesn't create a baby and say "Well, I'm going to make you gay just so I can hate you." you know?

Yeah, but for that matter why should he love you? Or me? Or anyone?

Originally posted by Nellinator
God doesn't hate homosexuals. He does not hate anyone.

He does not like homosexuality though. Also, to have people tortured in Hell for eternity is not something a loving person would do.

FeceMan
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Why.

Sure they've sinned and we are all sinners but God should forsake these types of scum.
To answer your question: yes.

To answer your post: the same reason that God loves black racists.

Kelly_LS
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, but for that matter why should he love you? Or me? Or anyone?



He does not like homosexuality though. Also, to have people tortured in Hell for eternity is not something a loving person would do.
Well I haven't raped/murdered/etc anyone......you ha.....Bardock...is there something you're not telling me?



stick out tongue

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
God's love is not conditional.


It is ABSOLUTELY conditional

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It is ABSOLUTELY conditional
You're such a n00b.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
You're such a n00b.


Prove me wrong Fecesman

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Prove me wrong Fecesman
God loves everyone.

There, I win.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
God loves everyone.

There, I win.




1) you haven't proven it

2) He may love everyone, but his love is still conditional

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) you haven't proven it

2) He may love everyone, but his love is still conditional
1. Does it really matter? You'll still say "NUH-UH!"
2. Not true.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
1. Does it really matter? You'll still say "NUH-UH!"
2. Not true.



1) Yes
2) yes


Prove to me his Love is unconditional...

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) Yes
2) yes


Prove to me his Love is unconditional...
He sent Jesus to die--painfully--for even rapists, murderers, torturers, and worse.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
He sent Jesus to die--painfully--for even rapists, murderers, torturers, and worse.

Why ?

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
He sent Jesus to die--painfully--for even rapists, murderers, torturers, and worse.

That isn't really unconditional though, since in order for those rapists, murderers, torturers and worse to benefit they still have to meet certain conditions - they, at some point, still have to do certain things in order to receive the benefits.

And it might sound nit-picky but when I want to do something tremendous and notable to show my love of, say, my girlfriend, I do it myself rather then sacrificing someone else. Sure, while the whole "what is a greater sign of caring the sacrificing what one holds most dear (a child)" might have some merit, I think it would have been much more loving if God himself threw himself before the steamroller of sin, rather then his son.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Why ?
BECAUSE HE LOVES THEM. ALL OF THEM. EVEN DOWN TO THEIR LAST PERVERTED, ABOMINABLE THOUGHT AND DEED.
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
That isn't really unconditional though, since in order for those rapists, murderers, torturers and worse to benefit they still have to meet certain conditions - they, at some point, still have to do certain things in order to receive the benefits.
The intent behind the act shows love. There is nothing that needs to be done for God to love.

And this is what I mean when I say that non-Christians simply cannot understand the Bible.

Christ--being a part of God as the Trinity--desired for this to come about. Although he became afraid in the coming hours of his death--even though he knew what was to come--he did not fight against those who oppressed him. Legions of angels were at Christ's command, and yet he died--because he was chosen, because he chose--so that we might live again.

Yahweh suffered twice in the death of Christ. Not only did His son die, but He, being part of Christ (and vice-versa), died. He withdrew from Christ in the final hours and turned His back on His Son--His Son who was dying on the cross. God suffered an agonizing death, the agonizing death of a loved one, abandonment, and the abandonment of a loved one.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Kelly_LS
Well I haven't raped/murdered/etc anyone......you ha.....Bardock...is there something you're not telling me?



stick out tongue According to the bible, one sin isn't above the other, so in that regards if you told a lie it is the same as murder..etc.

, Soooo it's ok for God to send his son to get murdered??? Isn't He breaking a commandment?

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
The intent behind the act shows love. There is nothing that needs to be done for God to love.

Has God ever done anything that makes it questionable about how unconditional his love is?

Were did all the people who died during the flood go, what with them not having had access to Jesus, his teachings and his loving sacrifice?



Which is relevant if you are one of the Christians who views the whole Trinity in that manner. And if I am not mistaken there is quite a lot of debate about that. And has been for a long time. I fear the righteous zeal of that explanation (which I get despite not considering myself a Christian) would be far more convincing if one couldn't cross the road and find another group of Christians with a totally different idea on the Trinity and why Jesus cried out and why God with his unconditional love had to use and abstract and sadistic plan as a means to open the path of salvation for humanity.

At the very least, as the greatest expression of God's love (if one believes it) one would think God would insure it was clear and easy to understand.



No, remember God is protected by the God clause - he can't sin because he said he is above it (I mean if personally killing the people of the world with a flood isn't murder, letting Satan harm those around Job murder or killing the Children of Egypt murder then no way is an abstract "sending Jesus to get killed" murder.)

FeceMan
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Has God ever done anything that makes it questionable about how unconditional his love is?

Were did all the people who died during the flood go, what with them not having had access to Jesus, his teachings and his loving sacrifice?
They were wicked and evil; God, like a parent with a child, disciplines His creations. In this case, death might seem harsh, but, should the people have been tried under a legal system with the glory of God as its standard, they would too have received a death sentence.

'Tis hardly sadistic or abstract, methinks. Also, which groups debate about the veracity of the belief in the Trinity? If I am not mistaken, you will find that they hold beliefs that contradict the teachings of other parts of the Bible. (Of course, I may be mistaken...)

It is fairly easy--at least, to me.

Good thing this was covered in my second paragraph.

Also, God was grieved over the world just prior to the Flood. He was saddened because of the judgment He was going to bring, and the pain that His children--through their sin and wickedness--had caused Him.

m. sade
Originally posted by FeceMan
The intent behind the act shows love. There is nothing that needs to be done for God to love.

It would be easier to see the loving intent behind the act of being sent to hell if it wasn't for eternity. I can't imagine a punishment based on loving intent that doesn't have some constructive purpose to it somewhere down the line. As it is, most of us are getting a one-way ticket to hell.

Some people say we cast ourselves down into hell out of self-loathing and shame and whatnot. But if that's true, wouldn't it be theoretically possible to remove ourselves from that position by becoming closer to God... that is, if it was our choice to be there in the first place.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
They were wicked and evil; God, like a parent with a child, disciplines His creations. In this case, death might seem harsh, but, should the people have been tried under a legal system with the glory of God as its standard, they would too have received a death sentence.

Would they indeed? Even by ancient standards, where the death penalty was far more common... well, what kinds of crimes were they committing? I mean for the whole world to be given the death penalty they would have to have all been going around killing and committing treason and all the rest.... basically complete anarchy which for some reason leads to all people being bastards.

Or would it have been they might not necessarily have been committing legal crimes, but rather "moral ones" - which is significantly shakier ground.

And how exactly had God disciplined them? A good parent does not do nothing and then out of the blue start whacking the kids - exactly what had God done to educate this evil mass before he suddenly set the flood on them? Were was Jesus with his message and salvation? Were was Moses with some plagues? The story has always sounded more to me like:

"One day God got up and remembered earth and the people. He looked and was disgusted. Thus he decided humanity was stuffed. However he saw Noah, who wasn't stuffed, and decided he would be spared. Thus he wiped out everyone, and then feeling kind of guilty sent a rainbow to show he wouldn't be so summery ever again. Noah and co replenished humanity and God eventually sent Jesus to tell people what was what. The end."



Tell me - does a parent have any responsibility, in your eyes, for the way their children turn out? We can bang on till the cows come home about free will and letting them be what they are, but let us face it, a parent is an influencing factor on child.

Can you honestly say, in the whole "parent" metaphor , that God has been a good parent? What exactly did he do? It seems to go a little like this:

1st - Creates humanity, puts them in a garden and leaves some poison down for them but tells them not to digest it. They do, he gets cross, ejects them from the garden and lets their sin distance humanity from God forever (until Jesus.)

2nd - Destroys some cities and all who dwell there.

3rd - Some stuff with Job, Abraham and all the rest which tends to show God as not the nicest.

4th - Suddenly decides to put the cleaner through humanity and kills everyone but Noah and co.

5th - Gets the Jews out of Egypt after inflicting some terrible things in the Egyptian people.

6th - Lets the Jews wander around for a while and gives them some laws and things about slavery and shellfish.

7th - Gets the Jews to kill the people in the Holy land, settle there, go off the tracks and then get conquered by almost every power that passes by.

8th - Suddenly decides maybe people should have a chance to get into Heaven. Sends Jesus to die horribly, a job well done as Christians then get persecuted for a while before they turn to persecuting and then stop persecuting and instead fight amongst themselves over who is correct.

9th - Will leads humanity through a time of horror and suffering know as revelations.

And some other stuff. What things in the Bible actually support God being a good parent? I mean really - if there was a human with a track record like God as a parent I suspect social services would be getting involved.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
And how exactly had God disciplined them? A good parent does not do nothing and then out of the blue start whacking the kids - exactly what had God done to educate this evil mass before he suddenly set the flood on them? Were was Jesus with his message and salvation? Were was Moses with some plagues? The story has always sounded more to me like:

"One day God got up and remembered earth and the people. He looked and was disgusted. Thus he decided humanity was stuffed. However he saw Noah, who wasn't stuffed, and decided he would be spared. Thus he wiped out everyone, and then feeling kind of guilty sent a rainbow to show he wouldn't be so summery ever again. Noah and co replenished humanity and God eventually sent Jesus to tell people what was what. The end."


Umm...I think you're leaving out a bit of the story. Noah prophesied(preached) to the people while he was building the ark. According to the scripture(s) - human beings lived much longer in those days. I believe the bible, references Noah as preaching to the people for several hundred years, while he was building the ark(more than enough time - for them to be warned about the coming flood).

It has also been alluded by various Christian Scholars and Theologians - that there were other reasons regarding God's judgement - such as the Nephilim(an ancient race of giant half men/half angels...God wanted to wipe all of them off the face of the earth..they were abominations to him..) - and the fact that Satan(and the other fallen angels) had contaminated everyone(all humans) on earth with their demon seed - in order to prevent the *Christ* from coming into the world - who would be the salvation of mankind.

I believe most of this is referenced in the book of Enoch(correct me if I'm wrong though), which was not incorporated into modern biblical translations - due to the fact that it was loosely based on recounted stories passed on through families during the time - and wasn't really considered inspired by God - however - many accept the book to be a fairly accurate historical account of the Nephilim and the pre-flood times(similar to the book of Adam and Eve).

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Tell me - does a parent have any responsibility, in your eyes, for the way their children turn out? We can bang on till the cows come home about free will and letting them be what they are, but let us face it, a parent is an influencing factor on child.

Can you honestly say, in the whole "parent" metaphor , that God has been a good parent? What exactly did he do? It seems to go a little like this:

1st - Creates humanity, puts them in a garden and leaves some poison down for them but tells them not to digest it. They do, he gets cross, ejects them from the garden and lets their sin distance humanity from God forever (until Jesus.)

2nd - Destroys some cities and all who dwell there.

3rd - Some stuff with Job, Abraham and all the rest which tends to show God as not the nicest.

4th - Suddenly decides to put the cleaner through humanity and kills everyone but Noah and co.

5th - Gets the Jews out of Egypt after inflicting some terrible things in the Egyptian people.

6th - Lets the Jews wander around for a while and gives them some laws and things about slavery and shellfish.

7th - Gets the Jews to kill the people in the Holy land, settle there, go off the tracks and then get conquered by almost every power that passes by.

8th - Suddenly decides maybe people should have a chance to get into Heaven. Sends Jesus to die horribly, a job well done as Christians then get persecuted for a while before they turn to persecuting and then stop persecuting and instead fight amongst themselves over who is correct.

9th - Will leads humanity through a time of horror and suffering know as revelations.

And some other stuff. What things in the Bible actually support God being a good parent? I mean really - if there was a human with a track record like God as a parent I suspect social services would be getting involved.



*cough* free will *cough* - Honestly, I don't think that you're giving God his fair due of credit regarding his loving nature. As a parent myself - I understand there is only so much I can do for my child, before I must let him make his own decisions, and go on his own course within life. If I did not do this...or allow them to excercise his *free will* - then how loving of a parent would I be?

So in my humble opinion - I think God's love is similar to that of a truly loving parent - and it goes something like this.

I. He presents the opportunity of free will(The tree of knowledge) - so that we(man) can have a choice on whether or not we would like to love him, or to choose our own lot in life(Unforturnately - instead of graciously asking God for this *free will* or for an understanding of "good and evil" - man decides to take this knowledge forcefully. Man is not entirely responsable for this decision though, as he was somewhat tricked by Satan into stealing this information.) Also - being the loving God that he is - he allows Satan to have some form of authourity while on this earth, pretty much allowing him to do whatever he wants(with some limitations like no control of free will..over the soul, or the heavenly realm) as well as be a *God* in a sense(at least of the earth).

II. He blesses a righteous man named Abraham - so that all mankind will be blessed, and can experience a portion of his inheritance. Thus making it easier for mankind to be reunited with him.

III. In order to not have to severely punish his people - he(God) sends multiple prophets to stop his children from committing evil acts(those acts that bring about harm to others and themselves - like killing sexual..
mmorality..etc)

IV. After multiple warnings - He punishes accordingly and fairly for the sinful acts - giving back to each person, exactly what they've done to other people. This punishment helps to prevent mankind from completely destroying itself...

V. He realizes that no man on earth - or no promise he can make to man - will never be adequate enough to assist man in coming back to him, so he comes down himself, as a gesture of kindness and grace(as well as love) to show man that he does indeed love him, and is willing to be subjected to Satan's evil authourity, just as they are - in order to make it easier for them to come back to him.

VI. He comes down a final time - to bring back all those who love him, -Destroys Satan and his followers - who are now have set their sites on conquering the heavens. Creates a new heaven and a new earth. People can live in peace for eternity.


I didn't really include everything about his love - because I wouldn't have enough space to write it(nor the time - I'd be writing for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years) But to me it sounds like God has a pretty good(perfect) track record of being a model parent. I think he'd have a pretty good case(actually a perfect one) for slander - particularly against anyone who called Social Services on him...and he would indeed receive a huge payout in emotional and physical damages for such false accusations..He..He..

So how does thou like those mangos?

Bardock42
Originally posted by FeceMan
He sent Jesus to die--painfully--for even rapists, murderers, torturers, and worse.

In that case they wouldn't have anything to do and still receive his best treatment. How does Satan assraping folks fit in? (except for gays who like that).Originally posted by Kelly_LS
Well I haven't raped/murdered/etc anyone......you ha.....Bardock...is there something you're not telling me?



stick out tongue
Yeah, but still, why should God love us?

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
5th - Gets the Jews out of Egypt after inflicting some terrible things in the Egyptian people.I watched the Prince of Egypt the other day with my nephew and niece. Entertaining movie for religious or atheist/agnostic alike. happy

One thing did recurrently strike me though... why didn't god just teleport them out of Egypt, having already interfered in the affairs of man? Why resort to the needless killing of innocent children?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
BECAUSE HE LOVES THEM. ALL OF THEM. EVEN DOWN TO THEIR LAST PERVERTED, ABOMINABLE THOUGHT AND DEED.






How is that Love ? Slaughtering your own son sounds sadistic to me...

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How is that Love ? Slaughtering your own son sounds sadistic to me...

Meh, it shouldn't - I mean everyone should *individualize* love, and there are different forms of love(according to you), all based on personal experience - so you shouldn't really have a problem with it....

Kelly_LS
Originally posted by debbiejo
According to the bible, one sin isn't above the other, so in that regards if you told a lie it is the same as murder..etc.

, Soooo it's ok for God to send his son to get murdered??? Isn't He breaking a commandment?
Ah! Well thank you for correcting me (no, not being sarcastic). But I don't know what I believe, therefore I don't know if I believe what all is in the Bible.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How is that Love ? Slaughtering your own son sounds sadistic to me...
It was just a physical body. Jesus did not die, but rose again. Jesus willingly did it, so it all works out. Jesus was willing to die for you because he loves you, but he rose again to give you new life.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Nellinator
It was just a physical body. Jesus did not die, but rose again. Jesus willingly did it, so it all works out. Jesus was willing to die for you because he loves you, but he rose again to give you new life.

Why did Jesus think that God had forsaken him then? Weird. All very weird.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Would they indeed? Even by ancient standards, where the death penalty was far more common... well, what kinds of crimes were they committing? I mean for the whole world to be given the death penalty they would have to have all been going around killing and committing treason and all the rest.... basically complete anarchy which for some reason leads to all people being bastards.

Or would it have been they might not necessarily have been committing legal crimes, but rather "moral ones" - which is significantly shakier ground.
The majority probably were moral crimes.

He gave them consciences, the ability to discern right from wrong.

Presumably, God saw the people of the Earth as doing so much wrong that they were beyond salvation.

That influence being "I've given you the ability to tell right from wrong."

Everyone chose wrong.

Yep.

'Cause they were bad people.

Ah, yes, the old "God was bad to Job" business. Thank goodness God was like "lol plagues" on Job.

I'm trying to figure out what God did with Abraham that was so bad.

You're a little out of order there, but that doesn't matter so much.

"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time."

Basically, everyone on the Earth was very, very evil. They were bad men who deserved to be punished for their evil. Thus, they were punished.

Again, punishment.

Actually, the Israelites were douches, hence the wandering.

The people killed were the bad mens. The Jews were conquered because of their disobedience to God.

They already had a chance to live eternally. Also, all the persecutions and fighting were done by human choice. Not God.

Yeah. It's an "I'm pissed that you all ****ed things up so badly even after giving you numerous chances to be saved--including the easiest, least-requirement heavy 'ask and ye shall be saved' sacrifice that you decided to ignore. Now I'm going to start unleashing this anger I've held in check for so long and there is proof that I am the LORD--yet you will still ignore me and do wicked things.

Forgiveness, mercy, discipline, comfort, love, gentleness, generosity...those kind of things.

xmarksthespot
Since when did god give us the ability to choose right from wrong in Biblical stories?

Symmetric Chaos
God is a petty vindictive *******.

Now for the proof

God is all powerful. Therefore God could easily create a world with out rapists, murders etc.
God has not created such a world therefore God must hates everybody equally.

So no God does not love rapists but has nonethless allowed them to exist in order to screw with people.

And yes that really is what I believe.

Oncewhite
Heckeling god or God isn't going to change things. It's our business to discover the "reason" why people do things that are hateful, when we do, we can treat them or cure them, if we never find out why, we will continue punishing someone AFTER the event, and that's after they damaged or hurt someone else's life.

Oncewhite
Here's my theory on pedophiles (who could be seen as rapist). again, if we can understand why, we can CURE a person, remember the third eye, and how it is related to innocence, and the two glands (pituitary and penal gland). Remember that when kids are growing up, most boys hate girls and vise verse. Things change when the sex hormones or size in the gland fluctuates, depending on when they "mature" or are taught sex. This is why some women, after having children, end up hating sex, as the size of the sex gland changes and they become the little girl again that hates boys, unfortunately, her husband.

If you look at the penal and pituitary gland, one is bigger when a person is a child, as they grow OR HAVE SEX, the sex gland either gets larger or causes the other gland to get smaller...the third eye of the child becomes dim...if a person is having sex at 11, and ONLY if the sex is pleasurable, the physical change is done in their body (sex hormones, change in sex glands) and that person (if they were experimenting with children their same age) may grow up to still have sexual desire for that age group, even after growing up. If the person was molested by an adult, their "learning" and again, it's only if it's pleasurable, becomes one that they start to see the child that was their age as needing to be "open" the same way they were "opened". Problem for them is that not everyone like sex, not every child will find it pleasurable, some children will do things just because they are told to and feel that if they tell, they are bad...so, if it's a non-pleasurable experience, the children will more then likely tell, and they will have hatred for it and will not repeat it in another child when they grow up. If the child found it pleasurable, they may grow up feeling cheap or dirty or that they need to keep a secret, and will likely repeat it to another child (however, that child may hate it and tell)...that's my theory, it's ugly, but that's it.

This is why I suspect that being "gay" is related to changes in the dna chemistry via voodoo or spirits or entity (female spirit camping in a male body)...and it effects the hormones of the body (b/c the dna code is being altered, effecting the brain) and therefore, people who are gay will have different brain chemistry in a way, and I think it's evident of it.

darthsecretus30
This freakin thread is ...horrible. Rapists will burn in hell ..PERIOD.....................................................

Imperial_Samura
Then it is unlikely they would have all been sentenced to death anyway under a legal system, since morality is a subjective thing socially, and Christianity most surely has had different ideas on what is morally correct compared to say more liberal, progressive societies.



I thought we gave ourself that. And once again - right and wrong, interesting in terms of social history. Have great civilisations and not so great ones throughout history been in opposition to what the Bible would say is "correct"? Yes. Did that make the people evil? No (but some certainly. If there were civilisations at this point then there would have been a difference. If the majority of the crimes were "moral" in nature then it is likely they would not have legal or social crimes at the time. It annoys me those representations of the period that simply show people killing and raping one another - since there seems to be no real historical representation of such a time when all humanity bar one man and his family were like that.



Unconditional love tends, in a poets eyes, to suggest one is never to far gone for the person doing the loving to give up. I can't believe God, sending his son to... what was it, ah yes " to die--painfully--for even rapists, murderers, torturers, and worse" would, if that was true, suddenly think "these people are beyond help." What crime can a person commit that is so heinous that it makes even God, infinitely loving and forgiving God, declere them beyond hope?

I mean if theoretically the greatest butchers of history had hope for salvation, with their plans and wars that cruelly killed millions... well, the mind boggles at what kind of crime every single person at that time was committed that put them beyond salvation.



So it is subjective and abstract. God didn't actually tell them, the way a parent tells a child, but rather gave them the "ability to tell right from wrong" even though morality and what is crime and what isn't has changed dramatically over the 6,000 + years of humanity? Even the difference in what is ok and not change from OT to New? Then this influence from God is a very weak influence, or it isn't as clear cut.



Parents still tend to go to jail when they kill their children because they have decided they are bad.



Nothing really, bad wording on my part. And yes, the old Job thing. Because good parents are known for letting bad people do bad things to their children to prove a point.



It doesn't bother to tell us what their crimes were, just the old generic "they were evil" - I bet they were sitting around stroking white cats and twisting their moustaches. Because I mean, that is the kind of things very, very evil people do. And as I said above - I really can't imagine what kind of thing every person could be doing that compares to some of the crimes individual people have committed and gone unpunished with. And sometimes even committed in the name of God or Allah or any other deity.

This I call inconsistency and lacking clarity of purpose.



Yes, because those Egyptians, oh they were evil. Granted, it was punishment of the Pharaoh through his people (even though by rights God should have had any number of ways of getting people out of Egypt.) And of course the children. Any practical, cold general knows the best way to get at the enemy is through their children/civilians it seems.



Of course they were, which was what made the suffering of the Egyptians all the more worth while. As well as all the other peoples through the world who were slaves but didn't get freed by God. And all the slaves that would follow that would never be set free until society changed.

Because God is inconsistent with who he helps and who he doesn't.



More bad men? Thank goodness everyone was bad, otherwise God might get some funny looks with all the killing going on when he was about. If only we knew what actually made them bad. If only there was some actual bit of history that revealed their were cultures irredeemably evil. But alas there isn't. I guess at least we have God's claim "they deserved it they did."



Yes, human choice etc. etc. etc. God no way responsible. Bad things happen when you believe in God, when you don't believe in God. Jews disobey - they are punished. Job doesn't disobey - well, we know what happens there. The Christians weren't disobeying - but they got nicely persecuted.



The funny thing is how little faith or understanding it seems God has of humanity. One wonders why he created us before if all it has led to is "anger held in check" for so long. I mean really - and the fact it is prophesied seems to indicate he knew long ago it would never get any better - why bother? And "I'm pissed that you all ****ed things up so badly"?

There goes the image of God being a proud parent of a fan of human freedom. God wanted us to do things, we didn't he let us not do them, but it doesn't matter we apparently had the freedom - we will be punished because we didn't dance to God's tune properly. Angry, angry parent:

Son: "Dad... I want to be an actor."
Father: "Well... I thought we talked about you becoming a lawyer like your old man."
Son: "Well, I've been thinking, and I decided it wasn't for me. And you always extolled the virtues of living life the way I thought was right."
Father: "I said that, but I didn't mean it. Live the life you want, but you'll be out on your ear while your doing it."

I mean really. All human achievement - good or bad, gone. Wiped out by a God grumpy we didn't live up to his standards. Bugger what we think or feel. Bugger the fact he stood back and let us "****ed things up so badly" while claiming to be on our side. The truth is he has apparently been angry at us for a long time, yet unlike a good parent has done nothing about it except apparently give us claims that are neither verifiable, don't always fit history or science and so on. Bugger the fact he seems to have never had any confidence in us as a species. What a poor craftsman.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Oncewhite
Etc.

This is why I suspect that being "gay" is related to changes in the dna chemistry via voodoo or spirits or entity (female spirit camping in a male body)...and it effects the hormones of the body (b/c the dna code is being altered, effecting the brain) and therefore, people who are gay will have different brain chemistry in a way, and I think it's evident of it.

This is why I suspect you don't really know what you are talking about, because the science behind you theory is complete and utter tosh.

Best keep it in your head where it can't pollute the world.

Oncewhite
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
This is why I suspect you don't really know what you are talking about, because the science behind you theory is complete and utter tosh.

Best keep it in your head where it can't pollute the world.

keep silent? why?

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Oncewhite
keep silent? why?

To stop the dimming of your third eye. Or something.

debbiejo
God sure does get grieved a lot without learning anything.

Oncewhite
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
To stop the dimming of your third eye. Or something.

or u can't handle an alternate perspective.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Oncewhite
Here's my theory on pedophiles (who could be seen as rapist). again, if we can understand why, we can CURE a person, remember the third eye, and how it is related to innocence, and the two glands (pituitary and penal gland). Remember that when kids are growing up, most boys hate girls and vise verse. Things change when the sex hormones or size in the gland fluctuates, depending on when they "mature" or are taught sex. This is why some women, after having children, end up hating sex, as the size of the sex gland changes and they become the little girl again that hates boys, unfortunately, her husband.

If you look at the penal and pituitary gland, one is bigger when a person is a child, as they grow OR HAVE SEX, the sex gland either gets larger or causes the other gland to get smaller...the third eye of the child becomes dim...if a person is having sex at 11, and ONLY if the sex is pleasurable, the physical change is done in their body (sex hormones, change in sex glands) and that person (if they were experimenting with children their same age) may grow up to still have sexual desire for that age group, even after growing up. If the person was molested by an adult, their "learning" and again, it's only if it's pleasurable, becomes one that they start to see the child that was their age as needing to be "open" the same way they were "opened". Problem for them is that not everyone like sex, not every child will find it pleasurable, some children will do things just because they are told to and feel that if they tell, they are bad...so, if it's a non-pleasurable experience, the children will more then likely tell, and they will have hatred for it and will not repeat it in another child when they grow up. If the child found it pleasurable, they may grow up feeling cheap or dirty or that they need to keep a secret, and will likely repeat it to another child (however, that child may hate it and tell)...that's my theory, it's ugly, but that's it.

This is why I suspect that being "gay" is related to changes in the dna chemistry via voodoo or spirits or entity (female spirit camping in a male body)...and it effects the hormones of the body (b/c the dna code is being altered, effecting the brain) and therefore, people who are gay will have different brain chemistry in a way, and I think it's evident of it.




You have to be the hugest idiot on KMC

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You have to be the hugest idiot on KMC

Pot, Kettle.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Then it is unlikely they would have all been sentenced to death anyway under a legal system, since morality is a subjective thing socially, and Christianity most surely has had different ideas on what is morally correct compared to say more liberal, progressive societies.
Like I said--with their sins weighed against the standard of the glory of God.

Newp.

Again, we're not measuring right and wrong from our more "liberal, progressive" (read: secular humanistic) society.

I don't know. The Bible doesn't expound upon it.

However, it wasn't even that they were doing so much wrong that they were beyond hope, but they had no inclination to do right. At the time period described, apparently there was no tendency to do right (or even desire to do so).

This leads me to believe that, in cities like Sodom and Gommorah, the people had so warped and perverted their minds that they had more or less eliminated any good thoughts.

Presumably, they were committing crimes that went beyond any subjectivity or abstractness of conscience.

God doesn't run a prison.

Controversial psychological studies have, if I am not misremembering. Furthermore, God blessed Job beyond what He had originally granted him after the entire ordeal.

Once again, it was not only their crimes but their warped and twisted outlook on the world.

The Egyptians enslaved the Israelites. This made God angry, so He said to Himself, "I will raise up Pharaoh to be great and powerful that, when I strike against him, my glory will be shown to all."

Thus, when Pharaoh was "raised up," God chose Moses to release the Israelites. Though Moses, God performed miracles to demonstrate His power and glory to the Egyptians--including taking the first born male of the Egyptians. This, of course, was a harsh blow to the Egyptians--and yet which group had murdered male infants beforehand? Which group threw them into the river?


God helps those in need. Sometimes He does it in a more dramatic fashion than others--even the Israelites had suffered as slaves for a long period of time prior to their deliverance.

I guess it was a good thing that they were evil according to the ultimate standard of goodness and righteousness so that we can say, "Gee, they were evil. Not according to a moral relativist, of course, but to God.

And yet I fail to see how this contradicts with human choice.

I don't know why God bothered. I'm not God. He made us anyway, though.

Just 'cause God didn't want us to rape and murder and all that good stuff doesn't mean that He wasn't a fan of free will.


Son: "Dad, I stole a candybar."
Father: "I thought we had a talk about this before--stealing is wrong."
Son: "Well, I've been thinking, and I decided that not stealing wasn't for me. And you always extolled the virtues of living a good, moral life, but you can't control me. So I'm going to keep on stealing."
Father: "Not while you live in my household, you won't--either you quit stealing or get out."
Son: "You're an *******. Here you are, allowing me to make my own decisions for myself but you don't want me to do things that are wrong? **** you."

Yep.

Wiped out by a God who is grumpy despite giving us so many chances not to do evil and to live forever, to repent from what is wrong.

Bugger that He gave us the ability to choose to screw things up. Bugger the fact that He's going to take the mess we've made of things, wipe it away, and make it new and good for us.

Bugger that you've chosen not to believe that He's been angry. Bugger that you've not chosen to accept His love and forgiveness. Bugger that God isn't always angry, though He hates sin.

A masterwork craftsman, actually. Not only did He give us life, He gave us a will. It just so happens that we often choose to go against God's will.

FeceMan
(Too many words, so need a new post.)

I think you'll like this article about baby-killing Yahwehs.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/killheir.html

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Pot, Kettle.
You beat me to it.

Lord Urizen
Oh wow, how perspectives vary.

Fecesman..you are wrong, he is right. End of story.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
(Too many words, so need a new post.)

I think you'll like this article about baby-killing Yahwehs.

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/killheir.html



The Article means shit to me, even though I read over it twice...


So Pharoah forced God to kill the firstborn of Egypt ? Oh wow..... roll eyes (sarcastic) so much for an all powerful god !

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Oncewhite
Here's my theory on pedophiles (who could be seen as rapist). again, if we can understand why, we can CURE a person, remember the third eye, and how it is related to innocence, and the two glands (pituitary and penal gland). Remember that when kids are growing up, most boys hate girls and vise verse. Things change when the sex hormones or size in the gland fluctuates, depending on when they "mature" or are taught sex. This is why some women, after having children, end up hating sex, as the size of the sex gland changes and they become the little girl again that hates boys, unfortunately, her husband.

If you look at the penal and pituitary gland, one is bigger when a person is a child, as they grow OR HAVE SEX, the sex gland either gets larger or causes the other gland to get smaller...the third eye of the child becomes dim...if a person is having sex at 11, and ONLY if the sex is pleasurable, the physical change is done in their body (sex hormones, change in sex glands) and that person (if they were experimenting with children their same age) may grow up to still have sexual desire for that age group, even after growing up. If the person was molested by an adult, their "learning" and again, it's only if it's pleasurable, becomes one that they start to see the child that was their age as needing to be "open" the same way they were "opened". Problem for them is that not everyone like sex, not every child will find it pleasurable, some children will do things just because they are told to and feel that if they tell, they are bad...so, if it's a non-pleasurable experience, the children will more then likely tell, and they will have hatred for it and will not repeat it in another child when they grow up. If the child found it pleasurable, they may grow up feeling cheap or dirty or that they need to keep a secret, and will likely repeat it to another child (however, that child may hate it and tell)...that's my theory, it's ugly, but that's it.

This is why I suspect that being "gay" is related to changes in the dna chemistry via voodoo or spirits or entity (female spirit camping in a male body)...and it effects the hormones of the body (b/c the dna code is being altered, effecting the brain) and therefore, people who are gay will have different brain chemistry in a way, and I think it's evident of it.

The third eye has to do with enlightenment and not innocence. Voodoo has no effect on those who do not believe in it and the same is true about the myth being called demons or spirits. Also, when DNA charges in the body it is called cancer and or radiation poisoning.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Also, when DNA charges in the body it is called cancer and or radiation poisoning.
That deserves to be sigged, though it ought to include viruses.

However, I refuse (and not just because of the spelling error).

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FeceMan
That deserves to be sigged, though it ought to include viruses.

However, I refuse (and not just because of the spelling error).

Sorry; but my point was that DNA does not just change on it's own, as suggested above.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Sorry; but my point was that DNA does not just change on it's own, as suggested above.
Please remember that, contrary to popular belief, I am not a dolt.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FeceMan
Please remember that, contrary to popular belief, I am not a dolt.

I know that; I was talking to Oncewhite, but thanks anyway.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I know that; I was talking to Oncewhite, but thanks anyway.
I wonder if there's some sort of communication barrier on these forums...

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FeceMan
I wonder if there's some sort of communication barrier on these forums...

What? confused


laughing

FeceMan
No, see, you missed out on the one-liner opportunity.

You should have said, "I call it 'intelligence.'"

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FeceMan
No, see, you missed out on the one-liner opportunity.

You should have said, "I call it 'intelligence.'"

I'm not that smart. stick out tongue

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Oncewhite
Here's my theory on pedophiles (who could be seen as rapist). again, if we can understand why, we can CURE a person, remember the third eye, and how it is related to innocence, and the two glands (pituitary and penal gland). Remember that when kids are growing up, most boys hate girls and vise verse. Things change when the sex hormones or size in the gland fluctuates, depending on when they "mature" or are taught sex. This is why some women, after having children, end up hating sex, as the size of the sex gland changes and they become the little girl again that hates boys, unfortunately, her husband.

If you look at the penal and pituitary gland, one is bigger when a person is a child, as they grow OR HAVE SEX, the sex gland either gets larger or causes the other gland to get smaller...the third eye of the child becomes dim...if a person is having sex at 11, and ONLY if the sex is pleasurable, the physical change is done in their body (sex hormones, change in sex glands) and that person (if they were experimenting with children their same age) may grow up to still have sexual desire for that age group, even after growing up. If the person was molested by an adult, their "learning" and again, it's only if it's pleasurable, becomes one that they start to see the child that was their age as needing to be "open" the same way they were "opened". Problem for them is that not everyone like sex, not every child will find it pleasurable, some children will do things just because they are told to and feel that if they tell, they are bad...so, if it's a non-pleasurable experience, the children will more then likely tell, and they will have hatred for it and will not repeat it in another child when they grow up. If the child found it pleasurable, they may grow up feeling cheap or dirty or that they need to keep a secret, and will likely repeat it to another child (however, that child may hate it and tell)...that's my theory, it's ugly, but that's it.

This is why I suspect that being "gay" is related to changes in the dna chemistry via voodoo or spirits or entity (female spirit camping in a male body)...and it effects the hormones of the body (b/c the dna code is being altered, effecting the brain) and therefore, people who are gay will have different brain chemistry in a way, and I think it's evident of it.

Meh, I've never been one to really blame the spirit(s), Satan, God, or whatnot though..I take responsability for myself. Which of course - is something that most Christians should do, before coming to God and asking for repentence(sp?) Furthermore - as it is stated within the bible, God is all-loving(he loves everyone) - and his love is beyond all understanding.

This love extends(and includes) everyone - even those who do not love him. If he was not all-loving - and self serving(wanting to serve no one but himself) - then he would have destroyed any creation who acted against him(sinned) immediately upon them having done so. But - as it is demonstrated within the scriptures, God is patient, kind, and humble - he truly wants everyone to change - even if it means he himself will on the loosing something near and dear to him(like his son).

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Meh, I've never been one to really blame the spirit(s), Satan, God, or whatnot though..I take responsability for myself. Which of course - is something that most Christians should do, before coming to God and asking for repentence(sp?) Furthermore - as it is stated within the bible, God is all-loving(he loves everyone) - and his love is beyond all understanding.

This love extends(and includes) everyone - even those who do not love him. If he was not all-loving - and self serving(wanting to serve no one but himself) - then he would have destroyed any creation who acted against him(sinned) immediately upon them having done so. But - as it is demonstrated within the scriptures, God is patient, kind, and humble - he truly wants everyone to change - even if it means he himself will on the loosing something near and dear to him(like his son).

You really didn't respond to his post. All you did was take the opportunity to preach. Please stop that, and go find a street corner to proselytize on.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You really didn't respond to his post. All you did was take the opportunity to preach. Please stop that, and go find a street corner to proselytize on.


Meh, we both should be able to *preach* our views fairly within the forum. So long as we are not insulting anyone while giving our sermons. You just happen to be *preaching* a different sermon than myself.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Meh, we both should be able to *preach* our views fairly within the forum. So long as we are not insulting anyone while giving our sermons. You just happen to be *preaching* a different sermon than myself.



I consider proselytizing to be a controversial and hostile topic.

usagi_yojimbo
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I consider proselytizing to be a controversial and hostile topic.


Meh - I consider you giving your opinion on my opinion being *proselytizing* to be a hostile topic..

Anyway - shall we now continue to *preach* erhem - discuss our opinions on said topic...

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Meh - I consider you giving your opinion on my opinion being *proselytizing* to be a hostile topic..

Anyway - shall we now continue to *preach* erhem - discuss our opinions on said topic...

My opinion is not proselytizing, I have not been preaching to anyone.

Any mod, please give your opinion.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You have to be the hugest idiot on KMC Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Pot, Kettle.

Truth, if I have ever seen any.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Pot, Kettle.


Duhhhhh, i dun get it rolling on floor laughing

debbiejo
I remember reading at one time about the "what came first" the
"DNA change that procured new thoughts" or the "thoughts changing the DNA change." I don't think they ever came to a conclusion on it. Though I do believe that thoughts are powerful in of themselves, but hmmm this was never proved in the study of brain chemistry.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Article means shit to me, even though I read over it twice...
Fools often can't understand wisdom when it is before their eyes, so...

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Fools often can't understand wisdom when it is before their eyes, so...


Is that why you resort to the Bible ?

debbiejo
Fools are foolish...........The wise listens and takes in and digests...As was said in anther post,..Thinks, researches then responds......

Foolishness talks
Wisdom listens.

Blesssed are the wise, for they will seek and they will find

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Is that why you resort to the Bible ?
I do often find myself resorting to the wisdom of God, so take that as you will.

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by Oncewhite
or u can't handle an alternate perspective.

Or maybe it just offends my sense of rationality and education to see such a baseless and scientifically incorrect theory?

Alternative perspectives are significantly more valid when there is some sense and basis to them.



Ahhh - so should our legal system attempt to imitate that of God's? I mean since it is the ultimate yardstick of right and wrong and mass extermination can be justified by it, then surely the world would be a better place if sinners went to jail.

But wait... that wouldn't work.



Once again I wonder why God bother to make us in his image if we are such pail imitations without any real power or understanding. And it is funny that the afore mentioned "conscience" God supposedly gave us to decide between right and wrong is suddenly... meaningless. We can't measure right and wrong? Since societies are intended to reflect the moral attitudes of progressive sense. It seems God's morals are good for heaven and not earth.



Hmmm. There are mental illnesses that make a person incapable of differentiating between right and wrong. And there are social examples of how a child raised a certain way can be devoid of socially acceptable qualities of right and wrong (simply because they don't understand)... but surely God wouldn't be so down on people like that, since it isn't, in the immediate theory, directly their fault. It is a product of something else... because it sounds more like a social problem then an individual one. Talk about overkill.

And I wonder... there would have been children at the time. Were those children irreconcilably perverted and without good thoughts? And the animals! I lived on a farm in a region prone to flooding... drowning is not a nice way to go for animal or man - as any number of farmers had stories to attest. Why drowning? I mean even if all those men and women and children and animals were beyond hope... didn't they deserve some respect as people? They wouldn't have even been given funerals. Or mourned... not nice at all, and less so when one thinks about it.



And the fact there is pretty much no parallel doesn't make you wonder a bit? "Oh, there crimes were beyond comprehension, thus we will merely say they are evil. No one will question that."



Metaphor: "God is a loving parent who has to sometimes punish the wrongs of his children (hence flood)

Reality: "A human who is a loving parent who kills their children tends to go to jail."

Logic - Loving parent or no God would be in jail if he let himself get judged by the people created in his image.



Hence the "controversial" - but when you have children and you love them, of course you would let the worst do their worst to them, just to insure you children really did love you, correct?

And of course blessing him - well that makes it all worth it (never mind the innocent bystanders who got hurt and killed in the process.) If I ever let something terrible happen to my child I'll make it up to them with a trip to the zoo.



So now it is how they think as well. Maybe there is something to the idea God is the thought police. Not only will we be punished for what we do, but how we see the world while we do it.



Because eye for an eye is a valid operating system. "You killed our infants, so we'll kill yours." And the Egyptians who were punished weren't the same ones who did the enslaving. And many of the Egyptians who got punished didn't actually have a choice over what happened to slaves (because this is know as monarchical state - where the people who act against the king are known as traitors.) And it seems even less pleasant - God: "Well, this business makes me unhappy. So I will let the Egyptians become great, instead of saving the Israelites immediately I will let them suffer for a good long while, let the Egyptians gain something to loose... then wham!"

And of course God apparently didn't mind so much about all the other people enslaved at the time or later. No saving them.



Really... so I could paste a huge list of all the groups who lived and died in slavery (up till modern times) and you'd be able to explain how exactly God helped those in need, despite no apparent sign of any such help?



Ah, the God clause. God says they are evil, so of course they are. Any one who questions that is a moral relativist. Nice way to insure people don't ask uncomfortable questions about what would... in rational terms... be considered genocide. Because evil people deserve to die - because they have "evil" before people. And once again - do you think they cared for their children? What happened to the children of these "evil" people? I guess they were shown mercy and didn't face the horror so many children face when their cultures are butchered - be they by God order Israelites or Romans or Mongols.



Which I also find funny. So many Christians and other Theists claim Atheists are bleak and can't be happy and think nothing good. Then they go to there sermons about how terrible humanity is (humanity created by Great God), how we are so undeserving, so worthless.

Oh well, I guess my loving God father, when I eventually meet him, will have plenty of anger to direct at me. Heaven forbid he, like a good parent, try and understand where I am coming from. Best to just be angry and yell at those people who have different ideas.



Only it isn't really about rape and murder - is it? If all this is true the majority of people in hell aren't rapists and murderers. They are in hell first because they didn't subscribe to God, and most, secondly, for what in human terms would be considered minor offences. And abstract ones (bad pride, bad.) But they are evil like all the previous evil people, thus deserve there eternity of suffering.



Nice twist. To be honest I have never stolen anything. Yet I will apparently end up in hell. Not because of any sin I have committed but because I find logic and sense in Atheism and can't find a way to believe in something I don't, and thus can't genuinely ask. Thus I will be there for choosing to be an actor while God wanted me to be a lawyer. Any sin I have with me (and not a single sin at this point beyond the abstracts like pride and so forth) is secondary to that - I don't believe, and as I result can't genuinely ask for forgiveness. Thus I earn my damnation.



Hmmm, I'd hate to have something made by such a masterwork craftsmen. The flaw was built into us, God gave us the option of being good bad - we didn't. We choose to act on the option, but the craftsman installed it. And he is the craftsman who knew his creation would never work so a thousand years ago he told us that no matter how we lived our lives or what we did with the world he had installed a self destruct. We have no choice in the matter. Only he does (if you believe.)

debbiejo
WOW..........You've really progressed beyond that old 3 paragraph thing........ big grin stick out tongue

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by debbiejo
WOW..........You've really progressed beyond that old 3 paragraph thing........ big grin stick out tongue

Yes, decided I had to broaden my horizon.

That and I am upgrading my speed typing, and this is good practice, even if it is conscious flow.

debbiejo
conscious flow? Let us all learn from this....yes..........Please pay attention now...............We must really think before we type...............

Not just drool upon old thoughts and old words................

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by debbiejo
conscious flow? Let us all learn from this....yes..........Please pay attention now...............We must really think before we type...............

Not just drool upon old thoughts and old words................

It isn't quite so bad if you are a quick thinker, and it all makes sense, so it is good.

office jesus
Originally posted by usagi_yojimbo
Meh - I consider you giving your opinion on my opinion being *proselytizing* to be a hostile topic..

Anyway - shall we now continue to *preach* erhem - discuss our opinions on said topic...

Would you PLEASE ..for the love of GOD stop saying 'meh' before your posts. It's f*cking annoying. Thanks.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
It isn't quite so bad if you are a quick thinker, and it all makes sense, so it is good. Amen and Amen...
I am quite enjoying the expanded unabridged version. smile

FeceMan
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Ahhh - so should our legal system attempt to imitate that of God's? I mean since it is the ultimate yardstick of right and wrong and mass extermination can be justified by it, then surely the world would be a better place if sinners went to jail.

But wait... that wouldn't work.
Le sigh. You have misconstrued the entire point I was making. The point was that IF they were to be judged as such, they would have been deserving of death. Therefore, when judged by God, they deserved death.

The conscience isn't meaningless, but our society has made it so. We can discern right from wrong, but our society teaches us otherwise. God's morals are good for heaven and Earth, but people just like to act like they aren't.

After all, if I'm an absolutist, I'm naught but a fundamentalist.

Thank goodness those aren't in the majority.

Yep. Which is, in fact, what I was saying.

Subjective awareness, objective reality, and the sociological imagination. From individual instances we can perceived the whole of the problem--that the people in question were vile beyond belief.

Presumably.

It's animals we're talking about here. Not people. This entire section sounds like a Bardock post.

Not beyond comprehension, but beyond the ability to say--if one were so inclined--"Weeellll, it wasn't really bad because of..."

What's your point? Capital punishment isn't illegal.

It wasn't to insure that Job loved God. It was to prove to Satan Job's loyalty.

It was similar to what happened to the protagonist in V for Vendetta, except God didn't do it.

Thank goodness Job was rewarded with a trip to the zoo. I wonder how that went for him.

*Sighs.* Again, you're missing the point. It's not that God is the "thought police," it's that every single inclination they had was evil.

In some cases, it is.

Ah, but were they willing accomplices? Did they care about the condition of the Hebrews?

And thus showing His power and glory to be far beyond the false gods and idols the Egyptians worshiped.

Hmm. Well, the Nazis got owned, so there goes that example.

No, not anyone who questions that would be a moral relativist. However, what the Egyptians did would be excusable--perhaps even morally right--by a moral relativist.

Oddly enough, God doesn't get off the hook.

Once upon a time there was a man named Josef Mengele. He was an evil man. He deserved to die.

The end.

Probably.

Terms of conquest and excision of followers of false gods.

Yeah, too bad He's offered forgiveness for all transgressions. For free. And by living in human flesh He has understood.

Again, all they had to do was ask for forgiveness.

They decided not to.

You could ask God to show you. You could put the tiniest bit of faith into God. You could step out onto the ledge of illogic and senselessness to find God, but you won't.

It's hardly a flaw.

We have complete choice in the matter. You have chosen not to believe, to accept God's grace.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
I do often find myself resorting to the wisdom of God, so take that as you will.



You subscribe to fiction for inspiration ? I do that too sometimes...

muslimscholar
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You subscribe to fiction for inspiration ? I do that too sometimes...

no wonder u talk a whole load of bull

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by muslimscholar
no wonder u talk a whole load of bull



Atleast I don't substitute Fiction for reality wink

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan
Le sigh. You have misconstrued the entire point I was making. The point was that IF they were to be judged as such, they would have been deserving of death. Therefore, when judged by God, they deserved death.

No, I get what you are saying, and all I can say is it is fortunate we don't have legal systems that judge by the "standards of God." Why, if that happened I suspect we would have something that might... closely resemble that delightful legal system the Taliban set up.

Or would it somehow be profoundly different? Just image, society punishing abstract, moral crimes, based upon a holy text.



So are the legal systems, of say western societies, profoundly out of whack with our conscience? A God given conscience imples some sort of standardisation... and if I am not mistaken everyones is different. What does your conscience say that doesn't sit well with your society?



Indeed.



And what exactly did God do to correct the problem? Except burn it to the ground and start over? And you of course realise that societies don't spring into being full formed? And even if one existed that was "vile beyond belief" by any standard - well, that is the product of a long evolution. Once again it seems we have an example of God not doing anything with his children till they were completely wrecked. Parenting is a constant thing, all interconnected. Not one day a week when the parent decides, due to the lack of parenting, that the child has to be excuted.



Well, that is something. Considering how changeable kids are. Talk about the sins of the father.



No, animals and people. Drowning is profoundly unpleasant for either. Why did God choose such a cruel method of mass execution? Why not simply make them... dead? Why drown them? Seems a wee bit cruel.



Ahh, no mitigating factors.



Not everywhere.

My point is the craziness of the whole "God is a parent who had to discipline his children - hence the flood."

A parent who kills their child because they are bad by their standards are considered criminal. However one can say God is both a parent and a judge (thank goodness he can give himself whatever authority he wishes. Nothing tyrannical about that.)



When I am boss of whatever I will let my staffs family be killed to insure their loyalty to the business. I will let someone infect them with aids and then let them think they are about to be fired... and if they stay loyal they will actually get a raise and promotion.

And if any of the cry I will tell them I am operating from the divine management manual. I mean no one would think that was bad.



And? Isn't one of the tenants of thought police usually "everyone is a criminal in someway. We just have to did deep enough to find a crime. Even if it is simply thinking bad" They are being judged on inclinations. We can't be saved on them, but we can be damned by them.



I fear you don't know much about ancient societies with that question. And once again double standards - not all slaves left Egypt, since Jews would only ever bee a section of the slave populous Egyptians drew on.

Somehow I think if Exodus is true... well, God didn't help all slaves, and those that remained would have been put on even more with God taking away a big number of other people.



Uh huh.



I think I hurt my spleen laughing. So now the fact the Nazis lost is an example of God doing things? Somehow I am more inclined to think it was.... the millions of soldiers who fought against them. The millions who died. If I study history of WWII I am afraid I see no fingerprints to show God had been sneaking around. And sure - WWII was a glorious thing to attribute to God. When he acted... granted, millions had already died horribly, but gee, when God got involved those Nazis got owned. Hard.



No, it wouldn't. However it would tried to be understand, and it would be seen as historical and cultural differences meant that to the Egyptians (and most cultures at the time) it was legal and the like. You would not hear a moral relativist saying "slavery is right." However you would hear one saying "that morals are a product of societies and thus relative to those societies. Most western societies in modern times with liberal and progressive thoughts understand slavery to be a crime and infringement of human rights. However in times past such behaviour was not only accepted but supported by ancient cultures moral system."

It is one of the weak arguments against moral relativity - the whole "Oh listen, they are saying slavery is all right! Grrr! Best not try and understand the thinking of others, otherwise you will end up owning slaves and in Hell!"

And didn't the Israelites have something about the correct way to treat slaves?



Did God kill Josef Mengele? No - despite all Josef Mengele had done he lived to a ripe old age. If he had been caught he would have been charged with a crime and likely executed for it - by humans, under a human law.

Which is rather different from "God saw the people were all inclined to evil and decided they had to die." The difference being Josef Mengele had a catalogue of crimes. The people God killed were simply classified as evil. They got no trial, they didn't face their accuser. And somehow I find it hard to picture a time when every man, women and child was a copy of Mengele.



Have I already mentioned Theological legal systems and the Taliban? I think I have... still, sounds fair - "excision of..."



"We choose not to believe" my project for the day... first I will try and find a way to believe in magic. Then I will moves on to believing in griffins and dragons. Then I think I might be able to believe in Ra and maybe Dionysus. Then I will be ready for a monotheistic God.

Maybe all of them. I mean if I am believing in Christian God, well, he has the same amount of evidenced claims as the Islamic one, and the Jewish one, so I guess to be on the safe side I best believe in all three.

Maybe then I should try and believe in something really difficult... Scientology. Makes sense yes? I mean logically if my current predicament is based upon me choosing "not to believe" then I should be able to believe in all of that - yes? Care to join me? You can choose to believe in magic yes? One can believe in whatever surely?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
No, I get what you are saying, and all I can say is it is fortunate we don't have legal systems that judge by the "standards of God."
Me too.

In some aspects, yes.

For starters, that taxpayers ought to pay for government-funded sex change operations.

As it is not God's duty to walk us through life, it is not His duty to make sure we're doing everything a-okay. However, when things became such a quagmire of immorality and evil, He decided to step in.

I should hope not.

Yep.

I don't know. Compared to some deaths, drowning is merciful. Who knows--maybe God made it so the animals didn't suffer. I, of course, can't make any statement on that because it's not written in the Bible, but it is a possibility.

Like those wonderful "It wasn't really morally wrong for them because that was how their culture was" factors?

Don't forget that people had the opportunity not to drown. They just didn't take it.

Furthermore, a lot of the people who were so entrenched in the moral decay of the time were not even totally human--they were angelic halfbreeds, mockeries of humanity.

Yet, all of that could have happened anyway. However, it is true that God purposely incited Satan's attacks on Job. He did this for several reasons.

1. To prove to Satan that Job was a good and faithful servant to God.
2. To test Job's loyalty.
3. To serve as a teaching experience for Job.

With all of this, though--God merely allowed Satan to do to Job what Satan could do to anyone else. After all, Satan is the ruler of this world.

Your example of being a boss in a company is flawed as there isn't a rival company running amok and hurting all the workers in the example.

Except that's not how it is. At all. It was that mankind had no inclination not to sin--mankind was corrupt and filled with moral rot. Not only were they doing wrong, they had no desire to do good.

I fear that you won't answer thq question because you know what the answer is.

How many of those other slaves were followers of God?

Glad we can agree.

Like I said, God doesn't always work in spectacular ways.

Yes, it would.

Moral relativism says that there are no moral absolutes and that right and wrong are defined differently by different people. Therefore, slavery, to one man, could be right while being wrong to another.

The reason that you never will hear a moral relativist say that slavery is right is because moral relativists tend to be a tad hypocritical with their beliefs that there are no moral absolutes.

Except I wouldn't be so foolish as to make a straw man out of that. You, on the other hand, attempt to make one by implying that I think we ought not to understand the thinking of others.

What's your point? I don't think slavery is wrong in and of itself.

That's not the point. The point is that Josef Mengele was evil and that there was no denying it.

And yet those were the terms of victory at the time.

You could indeed.

Bardock42
Originally posted by FeceMan
It's animals we're talking about here. Not people. This entire section sounds like a Bardock post.
What?

xmarksthespot
God ended WWII? Sorry, but that's just retarded.

Bardock42
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
God ended WWII? Sorry, but that's just retarded.

Of course, after starting it and letting all them heathenful Jews die. What? Jesus was jewish? Haha, sure.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Bardock42
Of course, after starting it and letting all them heathenful Jews die. What? Jesus was jewish? Haha, sure. Apparently he finally got fed up with you Nazi swine, after having allowed the systematic genocide of 6,000,000 Jews. Go figure.

Bardock42
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Apparently he finally got fed up with you Nazi swine, after having allowed the systematic genocide of 6,000,000 Jews. Go figure.

Know that whole Holocaust thing? Never happened!

debbiejo
Originally posted by Bardock42
What? laughing out loud Bardock post..........HAHAHAHAHA.

FeceMan
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
God ended WWII? Sorry, but that's just retarded.
Yes, because that's what I said.

I'm noticing that oversimplification of what Christians believe and say is a trend amongst you atheists.

m. sade
Originally posted by FeceMan

The conscience isn't meaningless, but our society has made it so. We can discern right from wrong, but our society teaches us otherwise. God's morals are good for heaven and Earth, but people just like to act like they aren't.

After all, if I'm an absolutist, I'm naught but a fundamentalist.



Did you mean that people are afraid to define things in terms of the absolute, because they are afraid of being percieved as fundamentalists and becoming something that they were taught by our society is base and ignorant, primitive...?

i.e. that people have hobbled their active conscience by lacking the faith sufficient to be able to believe something absolutely and unequivocally, and as a result people are unable to clearly discern right from wrong because they are caught up in something like moral relativism?

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by FeceMan For starters, that taxpayers ought to pay for government-funded sex change operations.

Sex change operations and who pays for them are a matter of conscience? Should tax payers ever contribute to reconstructive surgery? "Ba hah!" you may say - they are totally different. However there is logic behind Governments contributing to both. Psychology behind the sex change - since it is recognised that there is mental justification in some cases, and the hideously expensive operation is beyond the reach of many people with a justifiable need to become a women. However it is not like that in all cases.

To my knowledge in Australia, and England (at least) to be entitled to that Government assistance one must meets with counsellors who assess whether there is a justifiable need to have the change, or whether it is something like repressed homosexuality affecting their perception (I am a man and like men, but that is sick, clearly I am a women in a mans body) - in which case they are directed to suitable counselling and do not receive government assistance, and if they insist upon the operation must come up with the funds themselves.

For my conscience it would be wrong for Governments, drawing upon taxpayer money, not to use some of it to help those in need - and some of those who seek sex-change operation have a genuine psychological need for it, and without it face an unhappy life.



What in gubbins? Who is saying God has to walk us through life? It is you and others who claim he has been like a parent, and sometimes must, like a parent discipline his child. It is I saying that the analogy is trash since if that is the case he is a bad parent. Parenting is a consistent process till the child reaches the age of autonomy - yet God's parenting has, apparently, consisted of doing nothing for long periods of time, allowing the child to be wrecked and only then deciding to do something, which amounts to killing the child (humanity killed with flood) and then starting over by having some more (by way of Noah) - this is not good parenting.



Funny that, in terms of statistics, the three forms of death people seem fear a lot is being buried alive, being burnt alive and drowning. Oh yes, at least he didn't burn them all. Or bury them all - though both would have been healthier - all of humanity lying around decomposing. Once again speaking from a farm perspective the period following a major flood in which a lot of livestock has been lost is very unpleasant and can be quite dangerous in terms of disease.



Because that was how the culture was. You can try to shoehorn modern laws into ancient history, but it is purely an intellectual, and ultimately relative exercises. Because morals and laws through the ages have not been set in stone, in fact the morals and laws of the US or Australia or wherever have changed in the last 200 years. Or 100. Or 50. Or even the last 10.



Naturally, it was completely their fault. I actually believe they did choose not to drown (since no one really does) but there was no means to save themselves (since humanity was spread, and there was only Noah... so most wouldn't have known of God.) Tell me - how many humans could Moses have loaded on that magical ark of his? No many I'd bet.



Hmmm. Just like Jews were a mockery of humanity in certain peoples eyes.

Good, Holy Man: "You're a giant! You are foul in the sight of God and thus you die!"

Giant/halfbreed: "Wait! What is my crime?"

Good Holy Man: "Existing. Bwahahahahah!"



No? In business one has competition. To be on the top of the sproggit market I need loyal staff. What better way to insure they stay loyal then to let the forces of my opponent sproggit maker do bad things to them? Heaven forbid I actually trust my staff, or respect them as friends or family. NO, I have to prove their loyalty to my fellow sproggit maker. Why I care what he thinks is irrelevant, he needs to be shown my loyal staff can be treated in the most appalling fashion with my permission and stay with me. Granted it wont matter since he wont change and people will still be people and in the future plenty will still go with him, but... but...



Very well - First Egyptian slaves were not the property of Egyptian citizens individually, they belonged to the state who set where they worked, for how long and at what jobs. Typically a slave would be "loaned" to a small number of Egyptian households to act like a maid, doing household chores or as a light laborer. It was the people holding the loan who were responsible for the slaves well being, since if the slave ended up getting ruined somehow they wouldn't receive another on future rotation - since slaves would be swapped out periodically. - the question of "did they care for the condition of the Hebrews" is one of little validity since that was not the right, nor duty of the Egyptian citizen.

And since God and the Hebrews didn't apparently care about the conditions they left the other slaves in (the ones evidently not as chosen in God' eyes) it is rather hypocritical.

Second, the image so popular of the Egyptians standing over slaves with whips as they dragged huge monument blocks is one with increasingly less historical validity. It is increasingly believed slaves were not responsible for monument construction, but rather off season Egyptian labor. As such slaves more likely worked in the above light menial work, or as servants at palaces and temples, as well as tending animals and the like. In all it is judged that an Egyptian slave was likely treated significantly better then a Spartan slave, better then other slave keeping nations at the time, and probably only slightly worse then a Greek slave.



No, he just takes the credit of the blood, sweat and tears of humans who did what the important all loving God decided he wouldn't get involved in.



And.... is that in fact the case? Yes, yes it is. There are people, now the majority, who believe slavery is wrong, and they have good, rational reasons for it. Were there once people who believed it right and believed they had good, rational reasons for it? Yes, yes there was. Moral relativism is not about saying "there can be no laws", it is about recognising that obvious fact: people think differently from one another! It is the job of the state to separate morality from the decisions and try and implement what is best for the people. What is as just as possible. Because people have different morals.

Moral relativism recognises this - and once again, are your seriously saying that "slavery is good" as the same as "due to different social and moral perspectives some societies believed slavery was good."



As long as it isn't those of a favoured religion being enslaved it seems. And that sounds vaguely relativist...



And the point is it is absurd by trying to imply that all the people who God has killed are somehow all Josef Mengeles'. Evil like that is neither common nor accepted in most cultures. The relevance of him in this debate is rather limited beyond "sometimes there are some really foul types who the world is better of without." And when one considered God didn't kill Mengele, that he escaped justice while on earth, and might have found God while living on comfortable exile and could even now be up there sipping German lager at the Heavenly bar... what with being given the chance all those "evil" people weren't given when God decided to get involved.



Can I shout "moral relativism" - those were the terms of victory at the time. That makes them right? Yes or no? And if they were right "at the time" - well, we know were that leads.

And if they were wrong and morality is relevant to time and context but absolute throughout it... then God is implicit in crimes against humanity.

Oh, but wait, maybe crimes against humanity don't count when one is not of the proper faith.



Well there you go. Tell me when you have begun believing in the claims of Sociologists, and I will tell you when I have found a way of believing in the rest.

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