Darth Vader(TESB) vs Count Dooku(ROTS)

Rampant ox

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Man Vader takes this. Everyone considers Vader this very slow person but watch ESB again and you'll see Vader and Luke moved fast.

Fast? Perhaps, depending on how you look at it. But compare it to the PT (Hint: Dooku's era), it is slower than a 1 legged ox. Dooku is far faster than Vader. He was able to easily keep up with the likes of Yoda (arguably the fastest duellist either had ever seen). In terms of spped, Dooku takes this comfortably. Heck, I could see our fair Count hitting Vader several times before Vader can mount an effective defence - if going by the movies which I assume we are.

Are you referring to ESB or ROTJ? In ESB Vader was going relatively easy, yet he still couldnt straight up disarm young Skywalker - depite the fact Luke had only weeks if not days of training with a blade. I seem to recall Luke even getting a hit in on Vader shoulder. If an unexperienced, untrained farmboy can do that, I hate to think what an 80 year old jedi master come sith lord, who has had extensive training with both sides of the force, practices the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat and was desribed as a lightsaber prodigy could do.

What do you mean Vader has had 20 years more experience? In the darkside yes, but Dooku has had decades more experience overall. He was one of the very best duellists in an era where the jedi were at their prime - no mean feat if I do say so myself.

Also you can hardly compare ROTS Anakin and OT Vader. Because Anakin bet Dooku it in no way means Vader could. They can be seen as two completely different people, who fight differently and have diffferent strengths and weaknesses during combat. By your logic Dooku should beat Vader because he pwned AOTC Anakin. Doesnt work like that im afraid.

Darth Sexy

How do you figure he blocks the lightning? Electricity is electricity, whether it's Sidious' superior lightning or Dooku's halfassed lightning.

Lightsnake

His saber, maybe?

Gideon

Originally posted by Lightsnake
His saber, maybe?

Kadesh

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Fast? Perhaps, depending on how you look at it. But compare it to the PT (Hint: Dooku's era), it is slower than a 1 legged ox. Dooku is far faster than Vader. He was able to easily keep up with the likes of Yoda (arguably the fastest duellist either had ever seen). In terms of spped, Dooku takes this comfortably. Heck, I could see our fair Count hitting Vader several times before Vader can mount an effective defence - if going by the movies which I assume we are.
Speed not always be the factor here ok? Tsui choi is just as fast as yoda and yet vader could parry his attacks and take on 4 jedi at dueling at once

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Are you referring to ESB or ROTJ? In ESB Vader was going relatively easy, yet he still couldnt straight up disarm young Skywalker - depite the fact Luke had only weeks if not days of training with a blade. I seem to recall Luke even getting a hit in on Vader shoulder. If an unexperienced, untrained farmboy can do that, I hate to think what an 80 year old jedi master come sith lord, who has had extensive training with both sides of the force, practices the ultimate refinement in lightsaber to lightsaber combat and was desribed as a lightsaber prodigy could do. Um you do know luke used vaders form of djem so against his father right? that proves how powerful vaders djem so is, that even if some one were to mirror that move on its master, its master would get smacked down.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

What do you mean Vader has had 20 years more experience? In the darkside yes, but Dooku has had decades more experience overall. He was one of the very best duellists in an era where the jedi were at their prime - no mean feat if I do say so myself.
Experience can get refuted when i say yoda had 900 years od experience and lost to sidious who had only like what 60 at that time?

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Also you can hardly compare ROTS Anakin and OT Vader. Because Anakin bet Dooku it in no way means Vader could. They can be seen as two completely different people, who fight differently and have diffferent strengths and weaknesses during combat. By your logic Dooku should beat Vader because he pwned AOTC Anakin. Doesnt work like that im afraid. Yes you can, OT vader has grown far stronger than ROTS anakin, and do i need to point out that palpatine stated that vaders limitations are psycological and not physical? Had vader shaken his doubts, palatine noted that "the incredible power" will awaken in him again and by the OT im pretty sure he has got rid of some of his doubts which makes him even stronger than Purge vader

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How do you figure he blocks the lightning? Electricity is electricity, whether it's Sidious' superior lightning or Dooku's halfassed lightning. 1 word, the lightsaber.

and i wonder if what GL said was true, an interview asked him "why do so many kids like vader and palpatine?" Then lucas replied "Because they are the most powerful" Is that G-canon or something?

Mider999

supposidly sidious has a very high midiclorian count almost as high as anakin which says why he equals yoda at 840 his minor, i think it all comes down to midiclorian count i dont think you can be stronger then the midiclorian count you have thats why if you lose a limb you will be weaker, but then again you can heal yourself but vader didnt heal himself or couldnt is unknown, but yeah if vader gets hit just once with the lightning its all over isnt it. but then again yeah he can block it.

((The_Anomaly))

Originally posted by Mider999
supposidly sidious has a very high midiclorian count almost as high as anakin which says why he equals yoda at 840 his minor, i think it all comes down to midiclorian count i dont think you can be stronger then the midiclorian count you have thats why if you lose a limb you will be weaker, but then again you can heal yourself but vader didn't heal himself or couldnt is unknown, but yeah if vader gets hit just once with the lightning its all over isnt it. but then again yeah he can block it.

Wow. care to back that up? lol Seeing as Anakin was said to have 200% of the potential (midiclorians) that Sidious has. This was stated by Lucas himself. Sidious had nowhere near the midiclorian count as Anakin. To quote Qui-Gon "No Jedi has" or in this case, just no one. (Besides possibly Luke, but this is disputed)

BS claims, they seem to be running rampant around here as of late. Kinda starting to tick me off a bit, people need to stop just making shit up.

To answer the thread though, this is hard. I'm no 100% sure that Dooku could take Vader completely head to head in a lightsaber duel. Anakin's physical strength was Dooku's downfall in they're ROTS duel, and Suit Vader is far more physically strong then human Anakin is. So I'm not sure if Dooku actually could beat Vader, and even if he could it would be no cake walk for Dooku by any means. OT Vader just beats people into the ground, thats his style, Dooku couldn't handle that kind of blunt force. That being said Dooku's saber skills are so good that he might be able to just get around Vaders hammering, but then he didn't get by a physically weaker Anakin's hammering in ROTS...so...again, I'm not so sure.

Force Wise Vader is prolly overall about Dooku's force equal, but I'd give a slight advantage to Vader given his extreme raw power. However, Dooku's lightning is a huge factor and if Vader couldn't block it with his saber for whatever reason, then he's screwed.

I say Vader wins, like 65% of the time.

The Planet

You guys need to stop looking at how this would happen on paper, but look at how they fought in the movies, and I can honestly say that Dooku pwns him in about 10 seconds. People, Vader was terrible in ESB. Slow as ****, he was unskilled, Luke who had been a jedi for what, 5 minutes, and he was able to slice his hand off. Vader gets destroyed, bad.

Kadesh

Originally posted by The Planet
You guys need to stop looking at how this would happen on paper, but look at how they fought in the movies, and I can honestly say that Dooku pwns him in about 10 seconds. People, Vader was terrible in ESB. Slow as ****, he was unskilled, Luke who had been a jedi for what, 5 minutes, and he was able to slice his hand off. Vader gets destroyed, bad. Wow you really suck at debating dont you. Need i not mention vader is fast enough to pwn 4 jdi masters at once? and that he took on 8 jedi masters at once and parried their attacks until he got backstabbed, o yea lets not forget he could destroy tanks on the battlefield the size on an AT-AT which he demonstrated in Eaw and FOC. And being slow doesnt mean you would get pwned, tsui choi is much faster than all the jedis on kessel and yet even he couldnt break vaders defence.

And did you know that luke used vaders form of djem so? which is made op of ataru and djem so which he both learnt from yoda and obi1? That proves how dangerous and powerful vaders djem so is, that even if it were to be used on its on practitionar which would result in a tremendous knock down.

Did you even read the old dooku vs vader match where vader beat dooku?

By the way Gideon did point out that sidious chose mechanical vader over count dooku

Taken from Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, page 123 Vader's eyes searched Sidious's face. "Did you promise as much to Count Dooku?"

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

Orignally from Gideon
That seems to bring perspective on the fight. According to Sidious, not only did Dooku know what he risked in dueling Anakin, but Sidious also attributes his defeat as a lack of strength in the dark side in comparison to Vader - and if Dooku had truly been more powerful and stronger in the dark side - he would be in Vader's place as Sith pupil and second most powerful man in the galaxy.

Darth Subjekt

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well Vader wins. If you want to know why read that huge thread that was being argued not long ago. Like Subjekt said, we will all start b*tching at each other and the result wont be pretty...

exactly

jollyjim311

Kadesh

haha captain planet, go save the environment man

The Planet

No! Coleman Trebor was taken down by Jango Fett, that doesn't make him suck. He handled the saber fine, didn't seem to be anything bad, but just got overpowered by the most powerful bounty hunter in the galaxy.

I'm of the believe that Sidious used the force to stun the jedi or something, so Agen and Saesee don't suck.

Kit Fisto definitely doesn't suck, he performed well, briefly, and fought pretty quickly. Losing to Sidious isn't a bad thing.

Mace fought fine in RotS, I don't know what you're talking about.

The OT duelists, however, were stated by George Lucas to be inferior in comparison to the PT duelists. Just watch the OT, Vader was terrible, any main PT jedi would defeat him.

Strawman! Logical Fallacy! I don't have time for this.

Kadesh

Originally posted by The Planet

I'm of the believe that Sidious used the force to stun the jedi or something, so Agen and Saesee don't suck.
sidious never stunned them. Proof? mr "godly" debator

Originally posted by The Planet

The OT duelists, however, were stated by George Lucas to be inferior in comparison to the PT duelists. Just watch the OT, Vader was terrible, any main PT jedi would defeat him. No, he only stated that he did not at that time show how the sith and jedi really fought, And vader was remarkable in the EU, and considering the fact he grew even more powerful that he was in the purge, OT vader pretty much would beat any PT character save for yoda and mace windu. Dont lie captain planet, GL never stated that, And was vader terrible? i dont think so, that several sources pointed out that his mastery in djem so is incredible and that his powers were described as tremendous. And killing his officer from a very far distance is not impressive? i know it is. O yes and if you want to play dumb then how bout i tell you this.

An interview with GL where they asked him, why does so many kids like vader and palpatine, and guess what was his reply, "because they are more powerful" And isnt that G-canon?

this pretty much sums it up

Taken from Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, page 123 Vader's eyes searched Sidious's face. "Did you promise as much to Count Dooku?"

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

Orignally from Gideon
That seems to bring perspective on the fight. According to Sidious, not only did Dooku know what he risked in dueling Anakin, but Sidious also attributes his defeat as a lack of strength in the dark side in comparison to Vader - and if Dooku had truly been more powerful and stronger in the dark side - he would be in Vader's place as Sith pupil and second most powerful man in the galaxy.

The Planet

The fact that two of the greatest jedi warriors hardly moved a muscle in trying to defend themselves. Also Kadesh, the moment you actually win just one debate, then you can debate like a prick. I mean, what is you record now? 0-0-20?

I'm talking dueling only, and Vader sucked. We have visual proof, refer to ESB. To argue that Vader is anything different to how he is depicted in the highest form of canon is completely asinine. And if I remember correctly, GL said something along the lines of 'in the original trilogy, all we get to see fight is an old man , a half crippled Droid , and a boy trained by these people '. Vader is slow, that's a fact.

Source?

Pre Cyborg Vader, moot point.

Kadesh

Originally posted by The Planet
The fact that two of the greatest jedi warriors hardly moved a muscle in trying to defend themselves. Also Kadesh, the moment you actually win just one debate, then you can debate like a prick. I mean, what is you record now? 0-0-20?
Um i have lost and won debates fool, unlike you who has never won a debate once, And dont get me started on your debating skills, Lets not forget that they did now know who sidious was going to strike yet

Originally posted by The Planet

I'm talking dueling only, and Vader sucked. We have visual proof, refer to ESB. To argue that Vader is anything different to how he is depicted in the highest form of canon is completely asinine. And if I remember correctly, GL said something along the lines of 'in the original trilogy, all we get to see fight is an old man , a half crippled Droid , and a boy trained by these people '. Vader is slow, that's a fact.
Vader is slow yes, but is still decent, He was still able to take on 8 jedi masters, and take a 3 on 1 match in RODV, Even his djem so has improved as vader: the ultimate guide proved, And vader custamised his djem so with ataru and other forms, to make up for his lack of speed, proof? Vader: the ultimate guide.

o and this quote pretty much proves that

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.
Think its bullshit? Jedi academy backs this quote up so you fail. Not to forget shadows of the empire proves this too
Originally posted by The Planet

Source?
Star wars insider and i found this on the starwars.com forum

Originally posted by The Planet

Pre Cyborg Vader, moot point. wrong, he was referring to mechanical vader at that time

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Okay.

In that case, all these characters suck:

Coleman Trebor
Kit Fisto
Agen Colar
Seasse Tin
Mace Windu

And if they're not in the movies, like Asajj, they don't even exist!

Thank you for opening my eyes, Captain Planet!

HOly shit that was indeed humorous.

The Planet

You are like the least respected debater on this forum Kadesh, you have never beaten anyone in a debate, I have one about three in the last day or so.

Seriously, what kind of bullshit point is this, Kadesh? This is why you are a terrible debater, crap like this.

Whether these points actually have merit to them (coming from you, I doubt it) or not is irrelevant, this is ESB Vader, and the highest form of canon as well as Lucas say that he is slow and unskilled.

Oh lord, which issue? And post a link to whatever the hell you're talking about (only you know) in the SW.com forum.

They are referring to his fight with Dooku.. before Mustafar... you dumbass!!

General Kenobl

This thread should be closed, Vader vs. Tyrannus will never reach a universal consensus.

Darth Subjekt

What visual proof do we have from ESB, Planet? The part where he was toying with Luke, or the part where he cut his hand off SECONDS after being tagged on the shoulder?

The Planet

It's a Lucas sourced fact that Vader was slow and inferior to the PT duelists we see fight in the films, ESB shows how unagile and slow he is, to argue that ESB Vader is anything close to Dooku with a saber is arguing against canon.

General Kenobl

I guess AOTC Anakin > Vader then (by Planet's logic)

The Planet

Yes, with a saber, he is. His speed would overwhelm him.

Advent

Originally posted by Kadesh
Speed not always be the factor here ok?

Then I'd surmise neither is strength. It works both ways, you know.

Proof to back up this ridiculous assertion?

"For those craving a more specific explanation, keep in mind that Lucas has said that we've never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess."

-- Starwars.com, Episode IV Lore.

You were saying?

No, you don't have to point it out because it's irrelevant.

That was actually two words.

Link? Provide proof. I'm with the Captain on this one.

"Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

This quote is clearly referring to pre-suit Anakin. "If he had been stronger" is indicating at that point in time; not post-suit. I doubt Sidious anticipated Vader getting his limbs strewn across the banks of Mustafar.

I don't know how you could even make an argument insisting that it's post-suit Vader, The Planet's right (as much as it pains me to admit).

Darth Godzilla

Okay, Planet, Vader would frickin pummel AOTC Anakin to the floor, or choke him. that n00b couldn't even block F. Lightning.

How many times do I have to argue this? Vader beats Dooku. I've said it a 100 times.

Here's my prediction of a battle between Dooku and Vader.
Dooku attempts to end the battle quickly with Force Lightning (as he always seems to do). Vader, prepared, blocks it with his saber. Then the two engage in lightsaber combat. Dooku quickly gains the advantage; his quick blows get in several glancing hits on Vader. Due to his armor, however, Vader survives. But he now understands that he can't win a defensive battle. He improvises. He begins swinging at Dooku with savage ferocity; his blows are not accurate, and Dooku easily parries several, but Dooku cannot hold against such a relentless onslaught. He is eventually beaten down. Now, one of two things could happen.
1) Dooku recovers quickly and leaps up, unleashing a torrential flow of Force Lightning. Vader's circutry is torn apart, and Dooku wins.
2) Vader grabs Dooku in an iron Force Grip, and the Count can do nothing but watch as Vader cuts him down.

Which one is more likely? This is where their personalities come into play. Part of the reason Dooku left the order was his arrogance. My prediction is that he would be shocked at his defeat in the lightsaber battle, slowing his reaction time considerably. Were this pre-suit Vader, I fear his arrogance would overcome him, slowing him down and turning this into nothing more than a game of chance. However, at this stage, Vader is a methodical planner, and would sieze any opportunity presented him. I think that the victory goes to Vader.

Read every single post I've put up on the subject if you want to know why.

By the way, I'd like to see some1 else's simulation. Come up w. one!

Darth Godzilla

Did I mention that Vader channels his anger into his blows to make them even more powerful than Anakin's?
That was in something... a comic or something...
Ah, he11. I dunno.

General Kenobl

This is not going to end ever. Majority of people put Vader > Tyrannus, but the debate will never end.

The Planet

Wow! What is that? I can't quite make it out. Is that the sound of Kadesh getting curbstomped?
QED, motha****a!!

Darth Godzilla

True.
Who cares, though?
(about the thread going on 4ever)

READ MY SIMULATION

Darth Godzilla

I said it before, I'll say it again, he obliterates the old man. I don't see how, considering that Vader knows Dooku's tactics from when he was Anakin Skywalker, Vader couldn't block his Force lightning. Then it comes down to a duel. Now then, anyone who's read the ROTS novelization knows why Anakin beat Dooku- brute strength. And if you're going to deny Vader being stronger than Anakin, you're ON CRACK! Pardon the term, please. Granted, Vader is slower than Anakin, and would take a few glancing blows from Dooku. But I see Vader eventually crushing Dooku.

Darth Godzilla

Originally posted by Advent
Then I'd surmise neither is strength. It works both ways, you know.

Proof to back up this ridiculous assertion?

"For those craving a more specific explanation, keep in mind that Lucas has said that we've never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess."

-- Starwars.com, Episode IV Lore.

You were saying?

No, you don't have to point it out because it's irrelevant.

That was actually two words.

Link? Provide proof. I'm with the Captain on this one.

"Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

This quote is clearly referring to pre-suit Anakin. "If he had been stronger" is indicating at that point in time; not post-suit. I doubt Sidious anticipated Vader getting his limbs strewn across the banks of Mustafar.

I don't know how you could even make an argument insisting that it's post-suit Vader, The Planet's right (as much as it pains me to admit).

What Lucas said is different from what Star Wars dot com said. Lucas said "we've never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy." That quote itself has nothing to do with power. Starwars.com goes on to interpret it like Dan Brown goes on to interpret DaVinci's paintings, but he could have just said that to make up for the bad special effects in the OT.

Advent

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
What Lucas said is different from what Star Wars dot com said.

No. They went so far as to elaborate on what exactly he meant by his words, so obviously you are the only one who doesn't have a clue. Unless your unsupported opinion > Lucasfilms. Ha.

Actually, it does. By "true Jedi", you can interpret that he means ones that don't have some kind of detriment or lack of certain qualities.

Vader is a cyborg, who is horribly slow and because of such has had his dueling skill deteriorate. Luke is a neophyte farmboy with little to no real training. He makes that clear in a segment entitled "Prime of the Jedi" that they really aren't spectacular whatsoever in comparison to those we see in the Prequel Trilogy.

Nice try, Godzilla. Unfortunately for you, the comparison doesn't work.

Dan Brown doesn't actually have the authority to give a conclusive answer on Leo's artwork, seeing as DaVinci is dead. And how it's merely speculation, whether supported or not.

That differs from sw.com giving an elaboration insomuch as everything that is said on record must be approved by one or more forms of authority. Now, the claim on what Lucas meant is published for all the world to see, and it's a very substantial claim to make (as in, "that claim can sway views!" wink

.

If what they said was wrong, it would be removed. I highly doubt George Lucas would want false words coming out of his mouth, and seeing as Lucasfilms must review these things, I'd say you have no clue what you're talking about (as displayed by your asinine analogy).

They are the official site that represent Star Wars. So, do tell, are they wrong? And you, who isn't employed by anything related to George Lucas, are right?

Wait, don't answer, I'll do it for you: You'sa wrong. My point still stands.

What you fail to realize is that whether or not it was because of the technology (or lack thereof), the fact that it was said means it stands. You can't justify your claims or attempt to refute an authoritative quote by saying "LOL IT WAS TEH 70S ADVENT!" because that means precisely dick.

Lightsnake

Luke did have quite some skills, however. As did Vader. Vader's 80 percent of Palpatine and that ain't too bad.

Btw, Advent, been on IM lately?

The Planet

In the force though.

Darth Godzilla

My apologies- you're right about the quote. I was just suggesting what it could have been. Don't get so defensive!

Anyway, not that I mean to refute what you're saying, but saying that Vader is not a true Jedi (in power) is preposterous. As Darth Vader (in suit) he preformed feats that I doubt (he has shown nothing on this level thus far) Anakin could have (ex. Force Crushing a tank, throwing his lightsaber long distances, fighting two Masters and two knights (I think that was it) in RoDV, choking an officer from a totally different ship in ESB, bringing a tree down on the Dark Woman, etc.). In any event, this isn't Anakin vs. Vader. This is Vader vs. Dooku. Anakin beat Dooku by a substantial margin; in the ROTS novelization, Dooku can't do anything to stop him. Even if Vader is weaker than Anakin, he still might be able to beat Dooku.

I'm not good with quotes. I'd better stick with the battle aspect.

urmomsinabasket

vader wins. Seriously for all you dooku fans out there, think honestly for a sec.... does he really even pose a serious threat to vader?

The Planet

Wow, you sir are very persuasive.

urmomsinabasket

yup. thus ends this thread.

final vote :

Vader 0wns, Dooku gets p00ned

everyones happy with that right? good.

Advent

A true idiot at work, always entertaining.

RocasAtoll

Originally posted by urmomsinabasket
vader wins. Seriously for all you dooku fans out there, think honestly for a sec.... does he really even pose a serious threat to vader?

Wow. I should be worshipping you now.

Dooku wins. Watch ESB. Watch AoTC. (Just end, the rest is shit). Vader can't stand a chance against precise strikes since his style employs long, winding swings that'll leave him open.

Lightsnake

So'd anakin. What was that outcome again?

RocasAtoll

Originally posted by Lightsnake
So'd anakin. What was that outcome again?

And Anakin was faster, in shape, etc.

Darth Godzilla

Vader is also stronger, and has armor. Vader can afford to be hit a couple of times. Unlike Anakin. Or Dooku. Vader's strength is enough to pummel the Count to the floor.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
Vader is also stronger, and has armor. Vader can afford to be hit a couple of times. Unlike Anakin. Or Dooku. Vader's strength is enough to pummel the Count to the floor.

Dooku's speed is enough to overwhelm and confuse Vader - who in comaprison is pathetically slow. He couldnt overpower, and eventually got overwhelmed, by a farmboy with minimal training. You could have all the strength in the world - but you cant hit what you cant catch.

Darth Godzilla

That "farmboy with minimal training" also had, save Anakin himself, the highest potential in the Star Wars galaxy. He also dipped into the dark side, using his anger as a weapon.
Just like Anakin did with Dooku.

Besides, Vader wasn't trying to kill him, merely disarm him.

Once again, if you compare the movies, Vader, when fighting Luke, moves just as quickly as Anakin does in RotS. He'd be able to hit Dooku.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
That "farmboy with minimal training" also had, save Anakin himself, the highest potential in the Star Wars galaxy.

He can have as much potential as he damn well wants, potential doesnt equate to power. You have to fullfill your potential to become powerful - and by ESB or even ROTJ, Luke wsnt even close to reaching his potential.

Whoopdi f*ckin doo. Vader was completely emerged in the dark side during that battle but still got his arm hacked off by an untrained farm boy. If Vader was to fight Dooku, Dooku would also have 'dipped into the dark side', due to the fact he is a fully trained sith lord. I dont see what point you were trying to make.

In ESB or ROTJ? In ROTJ it is true, Vader didnt want to kill Luke. But this doesnt equate to letting Luke completely pwn him and getting his arm hacked off. Luke outduelled him fair and square. Now Dooku is leagues above Luke. You do the maths.

Are you kidding? We were obviously watching different movies then. All the PT battles are leagues faster than the OT ones. Dont deny y or make up excuses, it is the simple truth.

Rampant ox

Im feeling dizzy from the strong stench of bullsh*t coming from the above post. I think I need to lie down. messed

Advent

FOR GENERAL KENOBI
(even though it's much easier to use the quote feature)

Originally posted by General Kenobl (see? Much simpler, instead of posting it in bold)
Your point? So what if he is a cyborg, look at Grievous.

What do you mean "your point", you dolt? If you'd have taken the time to read through my post, maybe you would know what the point was. But, instead you chose the route of having your head stuck up your ass.

Nice. I expect a retort to go something like "z0mg i r teh pseudo-1ntellect, ad h0minem!!!//ONEELEVEN!!". The point, anyways, as I will explain to you has two parts to it:

1. That his dueling skill isn't on par with Anakin's, which was the opposite of what Kadesh asserted. By his implications in his post and former posts in other threads, Vader is greater than Anakin in dueling skill. That was what I was originally appealing to.

Which leads into...

2. Then I said that in regards to a way to interpret what Lucas said about "true Jedi fighting" in the Original Trilogy, and how it (the answer) would still be correct.

Essentially, the point for simpletons was: it's reason to suspect his skills went down, and that further propels the reason for the answer provided by starwars.com still holding its value.

"Look at Grievous", your point? Oh? None? When I stated Vader was a cyborg, I later elaborated on what handicaps that gives him. Thanks for reading, though.

In addition to that, I was roughly mirroring George Lucas' words by titling him as such, which is quite a step up from how he actually phrases it: "a crippled half droid, half man".

You should also note that he only eliminates four by himself, and they don't all attack him in conjuncture. He also got: his arm lopped off, half of his mask shredded, pummeled with scraps, nearly beaten to death. Do you have any proof any of those Jedi were anything above Zett Jukassa's skill (save for Tsui Choi, who only attacked with a blade once, IIRC)?

Wait. Don't answer, seeing as you'd be wasting more of my time since all of that is irrelevant to what my original point was.

It's not "by my logic", because your asinine statement has nothing to do with what I said. I never implied that anyone who is seemingly faster than Vader will beat him, as you seem to suggest.

Do tell, what does Qui-Gon have to do with the fact that Anakin's dueling skills in the PT were greater than in the OT (and that it's irrelevant whether it's due to lack of technology or not)? Oops, look like someone (you) made an ass out of themselves!

Not so smart. Furthermore, I'll note that just because someone is slow, it doesn't necessarily mean said someone is incapable of contending with faster opponents. For what you said to be correct, I would have to agree to the opposite. So unlucky.

I should make note that I never stated, or said anything vaguely indicating Tyranus will win; I merely pointed out the flaws in Kadesh's post, and later Godzilla's. That's just for future reference, not directed towards you or any more feeble minded posts you may or may not make, just a general statement.

I really hope you're not calling me a "Dooku fanboy", because that would be incorrect on two separate levels. Three, actually, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you're not including me (even though you gave no fancy title to "Dooku fanboys" wink

.

In any case, calling someone a "fanboy" doesn't help your arguments whatsoever. In these cases, it only makes you look like an idiot given that the opposition would be quite justified in labelling you a fanboy.

Darth Godzilla

Wait a sec... Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious? D@mn, he's even more powerful than I was saying. ROTJ Sidious is like 10% or 20% better than his ROTS self. That makes Vader... Let's see...
We'll go with RotS Sids being 15% weaker than RotJ.
I did the math, and Vader, by ROTJ, is 94% of ROTS Sidious.
That's pretty d@mn strong.
Probably strong enough to beat the Count... I'd give him 85% of RotS Sids. AT MOST.

Kadesh

Originally posted by Advent

"For those craving a more specific explanation, keep in mind that Lucas has said that we've never seen true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy. In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess."

-- Starwars.com, Episode IV Lore.

You were saying?

As i was saying, didnt the ANH novel said that both vader and obi wan grew stronger than the the last time they met? And did i not mention what vader was capable of with the lightsaber in the EU?

Originally posted by Advent
Lets not forget he was still inexperienced at that time being only 4-5 weeks after the movie and that he got Backstabbed , still being able to kill 4 jedis in his "crippled half droid" situation is impressive, that people seem to imply vader would get wtf pwned by any bpdy(no not you). They even seem to forget that for lightsaber skills, his pysical strength makes up for his speed and that he custamises his djem so with other forms to make up for lack of speed. And what? just because they got beaten by vader means they suck? i dont think so, that would be and will be the most irritating i would hear about vader beating his opponents then what about the dark woman? Had this been OT vader the fight would go a completely different way, remember? That ot vader is patient, more intelligent and that he knows how to kill his opponents?

Kadesh

Originally posted by The Planet
You are like the least respected debater on this forum Kadesh, you have never beaten anyone in a debate, I have one about three in the last day or so.
Wrong, you are the least respect debator here captain planet, no body takes you seriously

Originally posted by The Planet

Seriously, what kind of bullshit point is this, Kadesh? This is why you are a terrible debater, crap like this.
Saying that doesnt change the fact that you have no skills at all

Originally posted by The Planet

Whether these points actually have merit to them (coming from you, I doubt it) or not is irrelevant, this is ESB Vader, and the highest form of canon as well as Lucas say that he is slow and unskilled.
Lucas only said he was halfcrippled, and when did vader EVER fight a real opponent in the movies? either that luke or obiwan

Originally posted by The Planet

Oh lord, which issue? And post a link to whatever the hell you're talking about (only you know) in the SW.com forum.
I dont have the luxury of looking for it for a n00b like you

Originally posted by The Planet

They are referring to his fight with Dooku.. before Mustafar... you dumbass!! ok i got that wrong, but do you need to insult? thats why no body likes you sock

Originally posted by The Planet
Wow! What is that? I can't quite make it out. Is that the sound of Kadesh getting curbstomped?
QED, motha****a!! lol, that was because i was sleeping fool. now im back, And since when have you built a proper argument? none ! And by the way, advent just corrects what we said, unlesswe chose to argue

Gideon

Sorry that it took so long for me to post. I had to squeeze in between the MASSIVE EGOS that invaded the thread. Whew...

Look, dude, you two are about dead even in terms of the whole "least respected debater" here, from what others seemed to have said about you both. You're both pretty damn cocky, you're both quick to dismiss the abilities of others, and your reputation has suffered for it. So, why not argue the debate instead of arguing about which one has the more respect and the more debating prowess?

I wouldn't be quick to call other people "least respected", Planet. Despite your self-apparent "extreme skillz!", you're in the same boat that Kadesh is. This is, of course, largely due to your temper (which, I hate to tell you, does nothing but ellicit laughs and humor from the rest of us), your arrogance (which makes us question as to why you are so arrogant. Most arrogant people, of course, have impressive abilities of some sort), and your ability to spin things. See, you accused me of lying once (and you've accused Lightsnake of doing the same thing), and we've proven today that you like to put your own spin on specific things (like Kas'im "redirecting" Bane's energy blast...), and then you go on to harass people who don't immediately offer "proof" to claims that you don't like. Then, there's that time where you didn't like that canon sources disagreed with you, so you rattled off some bullshit about "having my own imagination and not writing love letters to Lucas and Chee and having them make up my own mind" when it suited your rather immature purpose. Your opinion = jack shit in the face of canon. Thought I'd use this to reiterate that.

By the way, it's "won", not "one", oh Lord of Debating.

Advent

Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
Wait a sec... Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious? D@mn, he's even more powerful than I was saying. ROTJ Sidious is like 10% or 20% better than his ROTS self. That makes Vader... Let's see...
We'll go with RotS Sids being 15% weaker than RotJ.
I did the math, and Vader, by ROTJ, is 94% of ROTS Sidious.
That's pretty d@mn strong.
Probably strong enough to beat the Count... I'd give him 85% of RotS Sids. AT MOST.

Then your math is off by a teeny bit (and I stress "teeny" wink

. If RotJ Sidious was 15% greater than his RotS self, then Darth Vader (assuming 80% of RotJ Sidious) would be 95% of RotS Sidious.

Here's how you do it:

Step 1. 100% (RotJ) - 15% (power gap) = 85% (RotS)
Step 2. 85% (RotS) - 80% (Vader/RotJ) = 5% (difference in power)
Step 3. 100% (RotS) - 5% (difference in power) = 95%

Of course, I'm in college and I still suck at third grade math, lol! But, there's other ways to do that, that was the simplest I could think of. He's 1% stronger than you said, of course, that's only if we were to actually accept the premise that Lucas was a) referring to Sidious as seen in Return of the Jedi, and b) that the difference in power from RotS to RotJ is actually 15%.

The omniscient narrator doesn't say it, the fallible characters (Old Ben and Darth Vader) do say this, however:

"This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words"

But, unlucky for you, that comment contradicts the actual movie, where the dialogue is actually:

Darth Vader: "Your powers are weak, old man."
Ben Kenobi: "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

So, in this case, what he said in the novel is irrelevant. It contradicts the highest form of canon, it's stated by fallible characters, and moreover, also causes a discrepancy between Lucas' words, and what starwars.com has to say. Which are both said about 20 plus years after the now ancient ANH novel came out.

This point holds no water.

Did I mention that I don't give a shit? Oh, no. I seem to have left that out. Well, let me say that I don't give a shit. Feat wars are irrelevant.

Don't take that as me being mean to you, by the way. It's just the easiest way I could put it (plus it lets me vent frustration).

Did you see those words typed in my post? No, I said "Do you have any proof any of those Jedi were anything above Zett Jukassa's skill?". It's a legitimate question, it has nothing to do with Vader himself. I'm just putting into question their level of skill. I can't imagine how seven Coleman Trebors would cause a huge problem.

Everything else in your post really has no place for me to respond to.

Kadesh

Originally posted by Advent

But, unlucky for you, that comment contradicts the actual movie, where the dialogue is actually:
You do know that the movie doesnt actually show everything right? are we suppose to know what dooku was thinking while watching it visually? i dont think so, Novels explain most of the things we see in the movie that are not shown,

Originally posted by Advent

So, in this case, what he said in the novel is irrelevant. It contradicts the highest form of canon, it's stated by fallible characters, and moreover, also causes a discrepancy between Lucas' words, and what starwars.com has to say. Which are both said about 20 plus years after the now ancient ANH novel came out.
And didnt you say whats mentioned in the novel is canon? you mentoined that in the thread about vader using dissipation didnt you? Contradiction between your words? i think so

Originally posted by Advent

Did I mention that I don't give a shit? Oh, no. I seem to have left that out. Well, let me say that I don't give a shit. Feat wars are irrelevant.
Just for your information, there is a reason why feat wars are mentoined, several reasons, like why vader was able to kill 3 of the jedis swiftly and easily, why? because he has skill, he proved that he was capable of what he can do

Originally posted by Advent

Did you see those words typed in my post? No, I said "Do you have any proof any of those Jedi were anything above Zett Jukassa's skill?". It's a legitimate question, it has nothing to do with Vader himself. I'm just putting into question their level of skill. I can't imagine how seven Coleman Trebors would cause a huge problem.

While i am putting in the level of vaders skill, Jedi academy has proven that he does order ASP droids and that he practises them to buff up his lightsaber skills and it was noted that they knew every lightsaber form and were stronger than an ordinary man,

And i really do not like it when people assume vader got weaker as the 19 years past, in ROTS he has not even began to practise learn and fully master the dark side as he did much later on in his sith years, O yea and its really impressive when people say anakins force powers are better and stronger when his force choke cant even kill his own wife who is not a force user

Originally posted by Gideon

Look, dude, you two are about dead even in terms of the whole "least respected debater" here, from what others seemed to have said about you both. You're both pretty damn cocky, you're both quick to dismiss the abilities of others, and your reputation has suffered for it. So, why not argue the debate instead of arguing about which one has the more respect and the more debating prowess?

ok.... no point pointing fingers like that, anyways i dont care what he says, he can flame me all he wants. Ill just argue the debat then

Darth_Frost

whz do people make topics like this.... it's obvious ani wins.... he is much more powerful the dooku, and sidious said to yoda: ''Darth Vader will become more powerful then either of us....'' no use thinking who wins...

Kadesh

Originally posted by Darth_Frost
whz do people make topics like this.... it's obvious ani wins.... he is much more powerful the dooku, and sidious said to yoda: ''Darth Vader will become more powerful then either of us....'' no use thinking who wins... He was referring to Full potential anakin which did not happen

Hasnt this been settled in the dooku vs vader thread back then?

The Planet

Originally posted by Gideon
Sorry that it took so long for me to post. I had to squeeze in between the MASSIVE EGOS that invaded the thread. Whew...

Look, dude, you two are about dead even in terms of the whole "least respected debater" here, from what others seemed to have said about you both. You're both pretty damn cocky, you're both quick to dismiss the abilities of others, and your reputation has suffered for it. So, why not argue the debate instead of arguing about which one has the more respect and the more debating prowess?

Dude this is a complete joke, and probably the worst insult you could ever give me. I am leagues above Kadesh in debating, to say that we're on the same level makes it pretty clear that you have some kind of grudge against me (as do the 10 or so quotes you have in your profile, LOL!). But seriously, I'm actually insulted, to compare me to Kadesh is quite possibly the most humiliating thing you could do to me, that's just embarrassing.

Now aside from the haters out there, I'm recognised as one of the best here, don't be foolish and try to make out that I'm on Kadesh's level, just ask anyone who has nothing against me, and who is somewhat intelligent, they'll say that I'm leagues above Kadesh. It's actually kind of funny that you would come out with that kind of crap, because you've now made it publicly known to the forum that you're either a dumbass, or you have some kind of grudge against me, because I don't think Sidious is the bomb. I mean is that like the only way you can get back at me for destroying you in the 'Yoda vs. Kas'im' thread, because you've clearly backed out of that won (- lolz).

Again Escape, what the hell is this kind of crap. How the hell do I come across as angry on this forum? Now I'm not going to be a prick like you are and lie, I'm not going to come back and just say the same about you, because I'm an honest guy. But please, I'm hardly one of the 'angry' people on this forum. That would be Sexy, Kadesh, and Darth Subject, saying the same about me, again, only makes it clear that you're either a dumbass or you have something against me. Either way, you only lose credibility.

Didn't realise that arrogance was a flaw. And please, at my best, there aren't many people above me. In fact, the only people who would be able to beat me at my best, honestly, I'd say would be Advent and Lightsnake, nobody else can touch me, so please, don't be ridiculous.

Slightly exaggerating a feat (even though I wasn't, in my eyes at least) is nowhere near the same as misquoting LFL officials, or lying about sources, don't be ridiculous.

Excuse me, but I never argue against canon, I just interpret it differently.

Wow, you caught me out on won spelling mistake, well done, good for you! thumb up

Kadesh

lol what ever you say captain planet, Now, are you going to go on with the debate or continue to humiliate yourself? Honestly i wouldnt say you are a bad debator, but you did become bad these past few days because you got arrogant and cocky, no im not insulting you, im just giving my opinion, want to be a good debator? Just debate civiliy and i think what Escape said is true about us, so why not bother to change?

The Planet

I don't need to, Advent already destroyed you.

Kadesh

Originally posted by The Planet
I don't need to, Advent already destroyed you.

Um its best you look up a few scrolls. She only told me what i had made wrong about the novel thing, That means getting destroyed? i dont think so. At least she did something, unlike you who just brags

The Planet

Dude, I had already defeated your points, Advent was just the one to crush your fool hardly persistence.

Kadesh

Planet, you didnt destroy anything, and advent only corrected my points, do you have problems reading? You havnt done anything accept brag

By the way, i checked the last few posts, all i saw was you getting your ass kicked by every one

The Planet

Correcting your points = destroying your points.

Kadesh

not entirely, and all i had mentioned was one point about the novel, she hasnt replied to the other things i have said. She herself said that, And nobody is right all the time, learn to accept that

Darth Godzilla

Did anybody notice what I said about Vader and Dooku percentagewise other than Advent? Don't (and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular) let your egos get in the way of the d@mn debate!

I'm going to repost all my points to get the debate going again.

Darth Godzilla

Here's my prediction of a battle between Dooku and Vader.
Dooku attempts to end the battle quickly with Force Lightning (as he always seems to do). Vader, prepared, blocks it with his saber. Then the two engage in lightsaber combat. Dooku quickly gains the advantage; his quick blows get in several glancing hits on Vader. Due to his armor, however, Vader survives. But he now understands that he can't win a defensive battle. He improvises. He begins swinging at Dooku with savage ferocity; his blows are not accurate, and Dooku easily parries several, but Dooku cannot hold against such a relentless onslaught. He is eventually beaten down. Now, one of two things could happen.
1) Dooku recovers quickly and leaps up, unleashing a torrential flow of Force Lightning. Vader's circutry is torn apart, and Dooku wins.
2) Vader grabs Dooku in an iron Force Grip, and the Count can do nothing but watch as Vader cuts him down.

Which one is more likely? This is where their personalities come into play. Part of the reason Dooku left the order was his arrogance. My prediction is that he would be shocked at his defeat in the lightsaber battle, slowing his reaction time considerably. Were this pre-suit Vader, I fear his arrogance would overcome him, slowing him down and turning this into nothing more than a game of chance. However, at this stage, Vader is a methodical planner, and would sieze any opportunity presented him. I think that the victory goes to Vader.

Darth Godzilla

Anyway, not that I mean to refute what you're saying, but saying that Vader is not a true Jedi (in power) is preposterous. As Darth Vader (in suit) he preformed feats that I doubt (he has shown nothing on this level thus far) Anakin could have (ex. Force Crushing a tank, throwing his lightsaber long distances, fighting two Masters and two knights (I think that was it) in RoDV, choking an officer from a totally different ship in ESB, bringing a tree down on the Dark Woman, etc.). In any event, this isn't Anakin vs. Vader. This is Vader vs. Dooku. Anakin beat Dooku by a substantial margin; in the ROTS novelization, Dooku can't do anything to stop him. Even if Vader is weaker than Anakin, he still might be able to beat Dooku.

Darth Godzilla

Vader is also stronger, and has armor. Vader can afford to be hit a couple of times. Unlike Anakin. Or Dooku. Vader's strength is enough to pummel the Count to the floor.

Darth Godzilla

Wait a sec... Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious? D@mn, he's even more powerful than I was saying. ROTJ Sidious is like 10% or 20% better than his ROTS self. That makes Vader... Let's see...
We'll go with RotS Sids being 15% weaker than RotJ.
I did the math, and Vader, by ROTJ, is 95% of ROTS Sidious. (Srry, forgot to round up the 1st time)
That's pretty d@mn strong.
Probably strong enough to beat the Count... I'd give him 85% of RotS Sids. AT MOST.

General Kenobl

EDIT

Advent

Originally posted by General Kenobl
You posted this Advent

Oh, I did? Well, congratulations Detective Dipshit for sleuthing up the obvious.

No, it wasn't. You're regarding my statement as me generalizing about cyborgs (that's actually exactly what you're doing), that's far from the actual case, and you're simply arguing semantics.

Polly want a cracker?

Actually, it's due to Vader being a cyborg that he is slow, and if you noticed immediately after I described what type of cyborg (in this case, a "horribly slow" one), and then stated that his skills would severely be reduced because of that handicap.

Except General Grievous isn't "a cyborg, who is horribly slow". General Grievous is a cyborg, who is extremely fast. Oops, I did it again!

Realistically speaking, though, you misinterpreted my statement and are basically just quibbling at semantics; causing me to rebut yet another pile of crap for no reason other than to just argue.

As for the rest, are you incapable of reading?

Originally posted by Advent
Wait. Don't answer, seeing as you'd be wasting more of my time since all of that is irrelevant to what my original point was.

All that was well and dandy (and unsupported), but it's irrelevant to my (main) argument. Thanks for wasting about 20 seconds more of my valuable time.

General Kenobl

LOL I'm not even going to bother arguing that!

Advent

There's nothing to even argue.

jollyjim311

Vader isn't that slow...

He showed lots of finesse in his ESB duel.

In RODV:

Vader carved through 20+ (not sure on numbers, sorry, I don't have the book with me right now, please correct me if I'm wrong) wookiees quickly.
It commented on how his agility and speed had increased from when he first got the suit.
He toyed with a pair of Jedi Knights who had lots of clone wars experience and worked well together.
Kept up with and beat a Jedi Master.

Also, there's Kadeesh's (Or whatever the **** his name is) favorite quote involving some combat droids.

Also, in Crimson Empire, his agility was amazing.

Anyway, strength is more important than speed with Vaders form, and it would seem his increase in strength was more significant than his loss in speed.

Anyway, Godzilla, try to condense your posts into one instead of five in a row, but, basically, your scenario seems accurate to me. Vader, knowing that he needs to bash Dooku into the ground, will proceed to do so, and, being a smart fighter and knowledgeable of Dooku, will be weary of that lightning.

Vader for the win, although, it's not an easy one, by any means. Dooku won't go down to anyone short of an instakill or Skywalker character easily.

Darth Subjekt

My whole thing is that we don't see Vader in his prime form in ESB. I mean he was toying with Luke, and not trying to kill him, so why would he need to move as fast as he could? But as i said before, when luke actually surprised him with that shoulder tap, it took him about 10 seconds to cut his hand off. So we cant judge his total ability by him not being tested. I guess the flip side of that would be, we don't know how good he actually is either. Also, speed isn't everything, nor is strength, so if you want to factor out Vader's strength, you have to dismiss Dooku's speed, whether it's part of the form or not.

The only feat that Dooku can do that really affect Vader is lightning, which Vader can block with his saber. Collectively, we've seen it blocked more than we've seen it be effective, so given that factor and Vader's skill level, it's more than safe to assume that Vader could in fact block it no problem. I personally, have never seen a choke blocked or disrupted, so we cant say that Dooku can automatically break the hold. If that were the case, wouldn't OB1 have broken it when Ani did it to Padme? And don't give me that shit, "oh well it wasn't on him so he couldn't" cause that doesnt make sense (just getting it out there). I'm inclined to say that Dooku was more powerful during AOTC rather than ROTS, unless someone can prove otherwise, then I'll concede that point.

Vader has grown in power, and become accustomed to his suit by ESB, and knows how he has to move and work his body to be effective in a duel. Also, he's fought Dooku before and knows how he fights, while Vader had to modify his form and stylings from his full human counterpart, and has become much more confident and in control of the force, and can control his emotions. I don't think Dooku could rattle Vader's cage as he did with Anakin.

I'd say Vader would win, but for the sake of arguing with the Dooku people in here, I'll give Dooku a 30% success rate, so Vader 70 - 30.

General Kenobl

I put ESB Luke close (not equal) to Qui-Gon Jinn. I have reasons for doing so (not to mention that I proved it in ESB Luke vs. QGJ). I just thought I put ROTJ Luke on par with Plo Koon, just under Maul (reasons as well). I just thought I should add that.

Kadesh

Jollyjim did mention that Makashi is defensive and gives out light blowswhich vaders armour can stand as it was proved in ESB, unless dooku changes forms i think djem so still >makashi

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
My whole thing is that we don't see Vader in his prime form in ESB.

Really? So when was Vader in his prime? Back in RODV, or is it not until ROTJ that he reaches his prime? ESB Vader is the most advanced and skillful version of Vader (during his time in the suit - bar perhaps ROTJ, but I doubt his power increased at all between the two movies). Yet he still got his arm hacked at by an untrained, scared farmboy. It doesnt matter if Vader wasnt giving his all, Luke still managed to outmanouvre Vader and get a hit in. Now my point is, if the likes of Luke can get even a single hit in, how the hell is Vader going to fare against the Count?

I dont see what point you are making. Removing Luke's arm is hardly a godly feat. Im willing to bet a large chunk of the PT Jedi would be able to do the same, more to the point, Dooku would easily be able to do the same. So if beating ESB Luke is the best you can come up with, im afraid that Dooku is going to pwn Vader into next week.

Why? Vader is far stronger than Dooku. Im openly willing to admit that. However Vader would not be able to keep up with Dooku's fast and precise movements, therefore would not be able to go on the offencive and utilise his strength. And dont spew bullsh*t about Vaders armour blocking Dooku's attacks. Makashi may not be the strongest physical form, but im sure it is more than substantial to kill Vader. We saw how easily it cut off Anakins arm in AOTC, and how it was able to block both Anakins and Obi-Wans strikes simultaneously in ROTS.

Hmmmm. I see what your sayng. I doubt Dooku's Dun Moch would work on Vader like it did on Anakin, however, the same thing applies for Vader. Dooku is not the type to be easily frightened by words (after all he is a politician). Also Vader uses a modified style of Makashi and Djem So does he not? (Please correct me if im wrong). Therefore Vaders style of fighting will be nothing new to Dooku, who is the undisputed master of Makashi. He also has knowledge of Djem So from being the temples BM, and commenting on Anakins skill with the form.

HELL NO Dooku might win 6/10 times. It depends how the battle pans out - they both have various things going for them. But I simply cant see how someone as slow as Vader can compare to Dooku - who was able to go toe to toe with the likes of Yoda.

EDIT: Sorry, I missed out a paragraph of your argument. Ill get to it later if I have time.

Darth Godzilla

My point is, however, that Dooku will be able to eventually get a strike in on Vader. Saying that he wouldn't is bull. HOWEVER, saying that Vader wouldn't have the chance to swing at Dooku would be bull, as well. Vader could take several light blows from Dooku before going down. Dooku could only take one. And, not to mention, it was Anakin's strength that won the ROTS fight. According to the novelization, speed did nothing for Dooku against Anakin's smashing blows. Vader's stronger. Just thought I'd point it out.

Kadesh

Stubborn rampant

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Really? So when was Vader in his prime? Back in RODV, or is it not until ROTJ that he reaches his prime? ESB Vader is the most advanced and skillful version of Vader (during his time in the suit - bar perhaps ROTJ, but I doubt his power increased at all between the two movies). Yet he still got his arm hacked at by an untrained, scared farmboy. It doesnt matter if Vader wasnt giving his all, Luke still managed to outmanouvre Vader and get a hit in. Now my point is, if the likes of Luke can get even a single hit in, how the hell is Vader going to fare against the Count? Lol you do know luke was using vaders version of djem so right? That it proved how deadly and efficent it is even against its on practionar, Obviously he learned ataru from yoda and mergedit with djem so as vader did. And need i not say makashi are weak blows which vaders armour can block easily?
Luke gave a strong blow to vaders shoulder blade but nothing happens, the saber bounced off.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

I dont see what point you are making. Removing Luke's arm is hardly a godly feat. Im willing to bet a large chunk of the PT Jedi would be able to do the same, more to the point, Dooku would easily be able to do the same. So if beating ESB Luke is the best you can come up with, im afraid that Dooku is going to pwn Vader into next week.
Lol, it demonstrates vaders mastery of cho mai, a technique which hacks of limbs of an opponent, Rampant, WHEN have you seen vader actually fightning a REAL jedi in the movies? never, We see his real fightning skills in the EU

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Why? Vader is far stronger than Dooku. Im openly willing to admit that. However Vader would not be able to keep up with Dooku's fast and precise movements, therefore would not be able to go on the offencive and utilise his strength. And dont spew bullsh*t about Vaders armour blocking Dooku's attacks. Makashi may not be the strongest physical form, but im sure it is more than substantial to kill Vader. We saw how easily it cut off Anakins arm in AOTC, and how it was able to block both Anakins and Obi-Wans strikes simultaneously in ROTS.
Um dooku cant simpy "dodge" the attack right? Since this is a duel wouldnt he have to block it? And when he blocks, he would get beaten down due to 2 things 1) saber form 2) strength

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Hmmmm. I see what your sayng. I doubt Dooku's Dun Moch would work on Vader like it did on Anakin, however, the same thing applies for Vader. Dooku is not the type to be easily frightened by words (after all he is a politician). Also Vader uses a modified style of Makashi and Djem So does he not? (Please correct me if im wrong). Therefore Vaders style of fighting will be nothing new to Dooku, who is the undisputed master of Makashi. He also has knowledge of Djem So from being the temples BM, and commenting on Anakins skill with the form.
But would dooku know how vader fights this time? Would dooku know about vaders custamised form? i dont think so, And dooku would think anakin got crippled...

Originally posted by Rampant ox

HELL NO Dooku might win 6/10 times. It depends how the battle pans out - they both have various things going for them. But I simply cant see how someone as slow as Vader can compare to Dooku - who was able to go toe to toe with the likes of Yoda.
Vader had the guts to go toe to toe with 8 jedi masters and pwn 4 of them, and also being able to carve through an entire army of wookies as RODV explained and still take on a 2 on 1 match in a saber duel to the death and killed 2 of them swiftly, Didnt some one mention that vader pulled a tree which was rooted to the ground and used it against roan shryne?
\

Darth Godzilla

the tree was against the Dark Woman

Kadesh

Im ralking about the one in RODV, and btw vader even used a waterfall to attempt to drown the dark woman, too bad the water is shallow of she would have died, And have you ever seen vader go mad and snap before? A sudden burst of anger from vader during that fight caught the woman off guard.

Imagine what happens if vader goes ape shit

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Kadesh
Imagine what happens if vader goes ape shit

He would make a stupid mistake and Dooku would capitalise on it - beating Vader faster than he normally would.

About that tree you refer to. Vader is hardly going to uproot a tree and throw it at Dooku in the middle of their duel. Thats like me saying Dooku is going to pic up and biff a steel balcony in the middle of their fight. Its simply not going to happen against such a skilled opponent.

Ill get to the rest of your points later.

Darth Subjekt

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Really? So when was Vader in his prime? Back in RODV, or is it not until ROTJ that he reaches his prime? ESB Vader is the most advanced and skillful version of Vader (during his time in the suit - bar perhaps ROTJ, but I doubt his power increased at all between the two movies). Yet he still got his arm hacked at by an untrained, scared farmboy. It doesn't matter if Vader wasnt giving his all, Luke still managed to outmanouvre Vader and get a hit in. Now my point is, if the likes of Luke can get even a single hit in, how the hell is Vader going to fare against the Count?

OK, almost you're entire post is based off you misreading or misunderstanding my point, so allow me to restate my claim.

I'm not saying anything about his overall prime. I'm saying that out of his abilities as of ESB, he never displays his full range. Do you get what I'm saying? He doesn't use his full potential more or less. As far as being untrained (Luke that is), i still think that's up for debate. Yoda said, "Already know that which you need." or something like that when referring to Luke's skill level as a Jedi. Then goes to say he will be a full fledged Jedi once he confronts (not beats) Vader. As we all know he did beat Vader, which makes me think his skill level is higher than we give credit for. As far as if Luke gets a hit in when Vader's not trying, vs going all out on Dooku...i think that question answers itself. He wasn't trying against Luke, and would be against the Count. If Vader put forth HALF the effort he would be forced to with Dooku, against Luke, Luke would be a dead little boy, and quickly.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I dont see what point you are making. Removing Luke's arm is hardly a godly feat. Im willing to bet a large chunk of the PT Jedi would be able to do the same, more to the point, Dooku would easily be able to do the same. So if beating ESB Luke is the best you can come up with, im afraid that Dooku is going to pwn Vader into next week.
I can see you don't see my point. So, allow me to again explain what I thought was obvious the first time. People in here are saying that Vader is slow, and more importantly unskilled, based on his altercation with Luke, correct? What I was saying was, when he was not trying, the battle lasted several minutes and traveled to various platforms, BUT, as soon as Luke tagged his shoulder, Vader ended it, and quick. So saying that he is unskilled is just illogical and false. You all want to down play vader based on Luke lasting more than a couple minutes, but tend to disregard how fast Vader incapacitated Luke.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Why? Vader is far stronger than Dooku. Im openly willing to admit that. However Vader would not be able to keep up with Dooku's fast and precise movements, therefore would not be able to go on the offencive and utilise his strength. And dont spew bullsh*t about Vaders armour blocking Dooku's attacks. Makashi may not be the strongest physical form, but im sure it is more than substantial to kill Vader. We saw how easily it cut off Anakins arm in AOTC, and how it was able to block both Anakins and Obi-Wans strikes simultaneously in ROTS.

Well that was more for Advent. She mentioned something similar to that earlier. You say Vader couldn't keep up because Dooku's speed could shut him down right? Well by the same logic, how can Dooku get his speed and momentum up with extremely strong blows raining down on him? it's a two way door here, Ox. A padawan Anakin's arm, as well as that feat, is nowhere close to Vader, his armor and skill level. Again, by the same token, we saw how Anakin's physical strength allowed him to cut off BOTH of Dooku's hands and his head. Point moot. As far as blocking both of their blows in ROTS, i believe you yourself acknowledged that neither Anakin, nor OB1 were using their respective mastered forms, so again, point moot. Sure it makes Makashi look good, but doesn't help against Djem so.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hmmmm. I see what your sayng. I doubt Dooku's Dun Moch would work on Vader like it did on Anakin, however, the same thing applies for Vader. Dooku is not the type to be easily frightened by words (after all he is a politician). Also Vader uses a modified style of Makashi and Djem So does he not? (Please correct me if im wrong). Therefore Vaders style of fighting will be nothing new to Dooku, who is the undisputed master of Makashi. He also has knowledge of Djem So from being the temples BM, and commenting on Anakins skill with the form.

I find a few thing wrong with your post. Firstly, Dooku was not a "politician", he was a political idealist. He agreed with certain ideals, but did nothing himself in a government setting. You might be saying, "oh big deal, what difference does that make?" But it shows your lack of attention to detail and distortion of the truth and facts.

No, to the best of my knowledge vader did not apply Makashi into his customized form, as his armor and lack of mobility, as you love to point out, would prevent him from doing so. Also, he wouldn't quite have the "speed" for that form either, would he? Hmmm, don't think so. And yes, if Vader;s style is customized, meaning he's the only one to have it being as HE customized/created it, then no, Dooku would not know what he was up against. Knowing aspects of all the forms in no way means that you know how to fight against/defend against a customized style.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
HELL NO Dooku might win 6/10 times. It depends how the battle pans out - they both have various things going for them. But I simply cant see how someone as slow as Vader can compare to Dooku - who was able to go toe to toe with the likes of Yoda.

EDIT: Sorry, I missed out a paragraph of your argument. Ill get to it later if I have time.

You're using an A>B>C argument. Just because Dooku was able to shortly contend with is former MASTER, before fleeing, is in no way indicative that he can automatically wipe the floor with Vader's ass. We have no idea how Vader would contend with Yoda, we can speculate, but don't know either way. So that really has no bearing whatsoever. Even in real life, if you fight someone fast, you fight them differently than you would fight someone slow. For instance, Buster Douglas was alot slower than Tyson, yet look what happened. Holyfield is slower than Tyson...again, look what happened. I know boxing isn't sword fighting, but speed is speed. Dooku relies on speed, accuracy, and balance to effectively utilize his form...if he goes in for a thrust, especially after a parry, and Vader throws a clubbing blow, it would throw off his balance and therefore give vader an advantage, if even a temporary one. I think that would be enough for someone of Vader's skill and prowess to capitalize on.

Whenever you get a chance for the other paragraph, ill be waiting. But now, it's off to bed, night all.

Mider999

is the comic where vader almost got owned by darth maul canon or not.

Blaxican

Not cannon. As far as Lucas and the EU is concerned, Maul died at TPM.

Darth_Frost

Dudes....
1. Vader aint that slow... when he fought maul he was very fast....
2. His bowers 6-ipled sence the last time he fought with dooku....
3. All odds say that Vader could easly killl Dok... Although Dok would put up a deacent fight...

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Darth_Frost
1. Vader aint that slow... when he fought maul he was very fast....

Not canon. Point moot. (Besides, how can you guage the speed of an opponent from a comic?)

And Jar-Jar is the Queen of England. Seriously man, where the Holy Hell do you come up with figures like that? Besides, '6-ipled' makes no sense (if I assume correctly that you are speaking english). At first I thought you were implying Vader had grown 6 more nipples since his last fight with Dooku.

And what odds might they be? Oh wait, let me answer that for you. The ones you blatantly pulled out of your ass to suit your biased argument. Also, for the love of Jesus, dont refer to the Count as 'Dok'. I find it rather irritating.

Darth_Frost

lol...dude get a girlfriend....
1. Use your logic (if you have some), Maul was very, very fast... Faster than Dok as far as I'm concerned...
2. sry for the spelling.... his powers* 6-applied (6x more powerful) than the last time they fought
3. these facts... don't insult me cause i didn't insult you.... and stop being a Dok lover....

Kadesh

Originally posted by Darth_Frost
lol...dude get a girlfriend....
1. Use your logic (if you have some), Maul was very, very fast... Faster than Dok as far as I'm concerned...
2. sry for the spelling.... his powers* 6-applied (6x more powerful) than the last time they fought
3. these facts... don't insult me cause i didn't insult you.... and stop being a Dok lover.... For once i agree with frost. And even the fight may not be canon and it did show what vader was capable of

Darth Subjekt

Well as we all know, the show should be out this year (its this year, right?) and that will be canon, and hopefully we can see what mech Vader can actually do with up to date Special effects.

Ox...waiting for your reply...

Kadesh

what star wars show

Darth Subjekt

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0458291/ cant believe you haven't heard about it....we just dont know if there will be main characters or not. But i think he would have learned after not putting a lot of mech vader in EP3.

Kadesh

i sure hope vader isnt slow in this one, and that they explain how he became so feared and ruthless in the galaxy, That how did every one know about him, RODV only completes a small percentage

Captain Planet

Guys this debating really is pointless, by Kuca's own admission, Vader is inferior in dueling to jedi like TPM Obi-Wan (LOL!), so Dooku curbstomps him.

Darth_Frost

lol here we go again... WHY DON't THEY BAN PPL LIKE YOU!!!!!!!!

Darth Sexy

We need people like CP on this forum, otherwise there's nobody else to laugh at.

Darth Subjekt

Originally posted by Captain Planet
Guys this debating really is pointless, by Kuca's own admission, Vader is inferior in dueling to jedi like TPM Obi-Wan (LOL!), so Dooku curbstomps him.

prove it. Prove "Kuca's" said that TPM OB1 is better than Vader.

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Darth_Frost
1. Use your logic (if you have some), Maul was very, very fast... Faster than Dok as far as I'm concerned...

laughing

. The book is not canon, therefore you cant use it in any way to help your argument. I thought I had established that in my previous post, God knows why you are still pressing the point.

Well, im sorry but I tend to disagree. Where the hell did you come up with figures like that? I really dont know how to reply to such blatant stupidity. Besides, Anakin's fighting abilities were severely impaired after his incident on Mustafar. His force powers certainly got better, but in terms of a blade he was nothing more than a crippled half man, half machine.

These facts? Im sorry but I dont recall you providing any 'facts' (apart from the bullsh*t ones you were trying to push on me earlier in this post, which really cant be caled facts). Now go anway and form an argument if you want - but for everyones sake, dont say 'Dok'. If you do I shall automatically regard you as an obnoxious noob and disregard your argument.

EDIT: I will get to your argument Subjekt, this guy is relly pissing me off though.

Darth_Frost

lol..it is you who proves to be stupid once again...
1. Stop with this "it's not cannon" stuff, because if it isn't cannon why is it in the comic...anyway that's 1 of my theaories
2. "...Darth Vader shall become stronger then either of us..."- Sidious
... tell me now that Vader wasn't close by power to palpatine and i'll kill you...
3. Stop insulting or things will get nasty... and these ARE facts... I know you are in love with C.Lee and Dooku and everything, but don't come here and tell me that Dooku is more powerful than Vader BECAUSE HE ISN'T FACE IT!!!!!!!!

Darth Subjekt

Frost, your heart is in the right place but you're not helping our cause, lol.
Ox something i forgot to mention earlier... As powerful as Dooku was, Anakin just pwned him like nobody's business, correct? Which would mean in order to pwn someone so powerful, he would already be leagues above him, so even if he did lose his potential, it would be feasible that he would have been lowered to Dooku's level.

Which actually brings up another point. When Vader was beaten on Mustafar, it never said he weakened, it said his potential was severely decreased. We do not know what percentage Anakin was of Sidious at that point, or what version on Sidious. For all we know, Vader could have increased to 80% of Sidious, it hasn't been stated either way. But if was that far above Dooku then, there's no reason to assume that he ended up weaker than Dooku.

And Lucas said that PT Jedi were in the prime of dueling, he never said that any PT duelist could beat any OT duelist. Thats asinine.

Advent

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Well that was more for Advent. She mentioned something similar to that earlier.

No, I didn't. If you're referring to me saying this:

Originally posted by Advent
Then I'd surmise neither is strength. It works both ways, you know.

I'm merely pointing out that while Kadesh stated "speed isn't a deciding factor", neither is strength. In a nutshell, I was implying what you said afterwards, except wording it to fit the statement made by Kadesh.

If not that, then I don't know what. Care to elaborate?

Sexyback

He made clear that the jedi we see fighting in TPM were better duelists than those we see in the OT, so if TPM Obi-Wan is a better duelist than Vader, Dooku completely annihilates him.

Darth Godzilla

I don't mean to be a jack@$$, but what was the exact quote?

Darth Subjekt

Originally posted by Advent
No, I didn't. If you're referring to me saying this:

I'm merely pointing out that while Kadesh stated "speed isn't a deciding factor", neither is strength. In a nutshell, I was implying what you said afterwards, except wording it to fit the statement made by Kadesh.

If not that, then I don't know what. Care to elaborate?

No, i didn't mean that in an argumentative manner, just getting it out of the way in case you were rooting for Dooku, and in case I noted Vader's strength as a decided factor. Just showing I acknowledge both sides of that argument.

Originally posted by Sexyback
He made clear that the jedi we see fighting in TPM were better duelists than those we see in the OT, so if TPM Obi-Wan is a better duelist than Vader, Dooku completely annihilates him.

That doesn't prove that TPM OB1 can beat Vader, to assume so is ridiculous.

OK, provide a quote and an audio clip or scan, since you're so big on that kind of shit.

Sexyback

In a saber duel, according to Lucas, yes. And I don't see what's wrong with that, TPM Obi-Wan held his own against Maul, Maul would decimate Vader.

It's here, I would provide a quote but the vids not working on the pc I am on for some reason, it's a short video anyway, it won't take up too much of your time.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html

Darth_Frost

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
No, i didn't mean that in an argumentative manner, just getting it out of the way in case you were rooting for Dooku, and in case I noted Vader's strength as a decided factor. Just showing I acknowledge both sides of that argument.

That doesn't prove that TPM OB1 can beat Vader, to assume so is ridiculous.

OK, provide a quote and an audio clip or scan, since you're so big on that kind of shit.

I agree...

Sexyback

To argue that Anakin is leagues above Dooku is preposterous.

His connection suffered heavily due to the midichlorians he lost, which would affect his current ability as well as full potential.

Mider999

on wookiepedia it says the maul fight was indeed canon he had to stab himself in order to beat maul, but i may be wrong about it being canon but if it is well dooku is probably a better fighter then maul since he owned obi wan in seconds when maul had a harder time.

Gideon

The novelization certainly seems to think that this is the case, at least in saber ability.

Darth Subjekt

Originally posted by Sexyback
In a saber duel, according to Lucas, yes. And I don't see what's wrong with that, TPM Obi-Wan held his own against Maul, Maul would decimate Vader.

It's here, I would provide a quote but the vids not working on the pc I am on for some reason, it's a short video anyway, it won't take up too much of your time.

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html

How the hell could you even entertain the thought that maul would "decimate" Vader? THAT'S whats preposterous. TPM OB1 utilized the darkside to contend with Maul, otherwise Maul would have pwned him. By that logic, QGJ would pwn Vader, Serra Keto, basically anyone with a lightsaber in the PT would pwn Vader....thats idiotic. You're twisting a quote to fit your argument, and it doesn't work that way. No one, especially GL, has ever said that a PT Jedi/Sith can automatically defeat an OT Jedi/Sith.

And yes, Vader beat that Maul, but no one knows what it was. It could have been twice the Maul we saw, it could have half the Maul we saw. Nothing's been released as far as how powerful it was. So that argument is irrelevant, either for or against Vader.

jollyjim311

A few quick things about Vader losing to Luke:

1) Lukes victory is a showing of Lukes power, not the lack of Vaders.
2) Vader has a lot of powerful feats, mostly in EU, to say otherwise is crazy. One failing shouldn't be all that you look at while trying to evaluate the fight.
3) There is actually a lot of evidence pointing to Luke being really powerful.
4) Spider-Man has beaten Firelord...(Tell me if you don't understand the reference and/or significance)

General Kenobl

Jollyjim is correct.

Luke is quite powerful, and shouldn't be underminded just because he is a Padawan. Since Luke is close to Qui-Gon Jinn (a lot of evidence shows this, there was a thread on it), there is also the fact that Vader might have been toying with Luke and just trying to flaunt the powers of the Dark Side. When Luke did hit him, it took Vader seconds to disarm Skywalker, indicating Vader's powers.

Darth Godzilla

Originally posted by Mider999
on wookiepedia it says the maul fight was indeed canon he had to stab himself in order to beat maul, but i may be wrong about it being canon but if it is well dooku is probably a better fighter then maul since he owned obi wan in seconds when maul had a harder time.

We don't know how strong Maul was there. It could have been a less powerful version, or a more powerful version. That fight can't be used either way here.

Darth Godzilla

Oh, wait, Subject said that already. oops.

Advent

Originally posted by Advent
So, because of such, it is irrelevant to bring it up as you cannot compare their power. For all we know, it was a slower version of Maul. For all we know, it was a weaker version of Maul. Of course, that doesn't leave out alternative guesses, but it's inconclusive, and you cannot compare his speed in the comic to the movie. It's really quite irrelevant to even bring it up.

Wow, that's the third time it's been repeated in a single thread in a single evening. Good going, l2processandreviewinformationohandread.

Darth Subjekt

i know Advent, but alot of times people don't go back to read, and he was still making an argument out of Maul "decimating" Vader, so i thought i would reiterate it...sorry. sad

Not trying to piss you off, lol.

Generic Hero

Even worse, Wolverine has beaten Lobo, Storm has beaten Wonder Woman, and Wolverine (again) killed the freaking Silver Surfer.

Advent

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
he was still making an argument out of Maul "decimating" Vader

Uh, I'm fairly certain he was referring to the actual Darth Maul, as he words his sentence "Maul would decimate Vader".

Rampant ox

The argument you were promised Subjekt...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
The only feat that Dooku can do that really affect Vader is lightning, which Vader can block with his saber.

What the hell do you mean 'the only feat'? Lightning is by far going to be the most effective move Dooku could implement on Vader, however thats not the limit of Dooku's force arsenal. He still has moves like force choke, which we saw performed on Obi-Wan in ROTS to a rather high degree.

Lets look at the movies. Dooku wtf pwns Anakin with a quick and easy burst of lightning. True, Obi-Wan does block the lightning when it is sent at him. Although to me the lightning looks very weak and was there more to intimidate Kenobi as oppose to eliminate him. Then there is Sidious' lightning which wtf pwned Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. So no, I hardly see how Vader is going to block the lightning with 'no problem' as you put it.

Fair enough. But lets look at the properties of a choke. The user attempts to kill/K.O the opponent by choking them out. In theory, if Dooku can break Vaders concentration, it will break the hold. I dont doubt that if Vader continuously performed the manouvre it would beat win him the battle, but I hardly see him whipping out a force choke every 10 seconds - especially against a much faster opponent.

I dont see what point you are trying to make. I dont see why Dooku wouldnt be as strong, if not stronger in ROTS than in AOTC. After all, he did have his array of Dark Acolytes to train and what not.

Sexyback

By watching TPM, and then watching the OT. Maul is far more skilled, and his speed and agility would likely overwhelm Vader in seconds.

He still kept up with him before using the darkside, Vader wouldn't be able to do shit to Maul.

And I would agree with that.

No, that's not what I'm saying Mr. Strawman, all I'm saying is that by GL's own admission, anybody in the PT movies who we actually properly see fight is a better duelist than Vader, we don't ever see Serra Keto properly fight, that wasn't my argument.

I'm not twisting shit. You are
(a) Misconstruing my argument.
(b) Arguing against canon.

Gl makes it clear that the duels we see in the PT are much faster and better, and that the OT duelists are clearly lacking in skills in comparison to the PT duelists. And that's really not that hard to believe Subject, you're just being a fanboy if you disagree, and arguing against canon.

So I'm sorry, but you have lost. Dooku is a better duelist than Vader, much better. It's a fact.

And just so you know, choke can be blocked, refer to PoD.

Kadesh

Originally posted by Rampant ox

What the hell do you mean 'the only feat'? Lightning is by far going to be the most effective move Dooku could implement on Vader, however thats not the limit of Dooku's force arsenal. He still has moves like force choke, which we saw performed on Obi-Wan in ROTS to a rather high degree. You do know vader has a lightsaber right? to block his lightning which a weak AOTC obi wan could do with no problem, Did you forget vader has far more powers than dooku? grip? crush? wave? as he demonstrated in the EU. And dooku choking obi wan in ROTS big deal, couldnt kill him, while vader choked some one from a ver far distance apart

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Lets look at the movies. Dooku wtf pwns Anakin with a quick and easy burst of lightning. True, Obi-Wan does block the lightning when it is sent at him. Although to me the lightning looks very weak and was there more to intimidate Kenobi as oppose to eliminate him. Then there is Sidious' lightning which wtf pwned Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. So no, I hardly see how Vader is going to block the lightning with 'no problem' as you put it.. Um dooku was trying to kill obi wan, he did the lightning to the same degree as he did to yoda, Dont have to lie ox. And obiwan blocked the lightsaber nice and easy

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Fair enough. But lets look at the properties of a choke. The user attempts to kill/K.O the opponent by choking them out. In theory, if Dooku can break Vaders concentration, it will break the hold. I dont doubt that if Vader continuously performed the manouvre it would beat win him the battle, but I hardly see him whipping out a force choke every 10 seconds - especially against a much faster opponent.
Choke wouldnt kill a force user that easily so why bother to use it? Vader could take grip to a much higher degree called crush, which is around your entire body pushing to its centre of point, There is no evidence that dooku has a defence to this technique, other that the force shield luke demonstrated in DE.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

I dont see what point you are trying to make. I dont see why Dooku wouldnt be as strong, if not stronger in ROTS than in AOTC. After all, he did have his array of Dark Acolytes to train and what not. And i dont get why people think vader is weaker than anakin, even 20 years after ROTS

Sexyback

Kadesh, Dooku was merely giving Obi-Wan a demonstration; the way he says, "As you can see, my jedi powers are far beyond your's. Now please, back down!" makes that clear, it's pretty clear he wasn't trying to kill him with that one strand of lightning. I mean, if he really was, why only use one handed lightning when he has displayed the ability to summon it with both hands in the EU.

kamikz

Yeah, I bet he was giving Yoda a demonstration two times in a row as well................ no expression

Sexyback

I never said that.

Kadesh

Originally posted by Sexyback
Kadesh, Dooku was merely giving Obi-Wan a demonstration; the way he says, "As you can see, my jedi powers are far beyond your's. Now please, back down!" makes that clear, it's pretty clear he wasn't trying to kill him with that one strand of lightning. I mean, if he really was, why only use one handed lightning when he has displayed the ability to summon it with both hands in the EU. ok you got me there, but he was going to wound him as he did to anakin, And didnt he attack yoda with the same degree with lightning? Even if dooku is going to use 2 hands on vader, couldnt it be blocked as mace did to sidious?

Sexyback

Oh I definitely agree that Vader can block it, I was just saying.

Kadesh

alright then

Darth_Frost

dudes, VADER CAN BEAT DOOKU! THE END... Close the topic...

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Kadesh
You do know vader has a lightsaber right? to block his lightning which a weak AOTC obi wan could do with no problem,

Well of course Dooku would have to outmanouvre vader to a certain extent first so that Vader couldnt block it with his blade (which shoulnt be to hard to do seeing their extreme speed difference). AOTC Kenobi was given a demonstration of Dooku's power, it was hardly meant to be a killing strike.

Good for Vader. He was hardly in a battle situation, let alone a saber duel with an esteemed Jedi Master such as Dooku. Dooku however managed to pick up and choke Kenobi at the same time, while fighting both him and Anakin.

Im not lying assh*le. This coming from the same guy who states "z0mg Vader can block lightning with his hands!!!! roll eyes (sarcastic)

Is there any evidence that Vader could perform such a manouvre in a lightsaber duel - let alone one with a prodigy like Count Dooku. I recall Vader using the technique once (correct me if im wrong). Hardly enough evidence for you to suggest he is going to use the technique willy nilly in a lightsaber duel. Besides, he would be to busy defending against Dooku and his quick attacks to have time to perform such a powerful move.

Well you know, there is the fact he had 3 limbs thrown around Mustafar, had his potential severely damaged, had his lightsaber skills severely damaged, is more machine now than man, and has to walk around in a heavy suit and life support system. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Sexyback

You know, technically speaking, couldn't Dooku just shoot two strands of lightning that are at such a distant apart that it is impossible to block both strands with just one saber? Maybe Dooku hadn't mastered lightning to that level and doesn't have the accuracy, but in theory, doesn't lightning have the potential to do that?

Darth Subjekt

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The argument you were promised Subjekt...

What the hell do you mean 'the only feat'? Lightning is by far going to be the most effective move Dooku could implement on Vader, however thats not the limit of Dooku's force arsenal. He still has moves like force choke, which we saw performed on Obi-Wan in ROTS to a rather high degree.

Ok, you missed my point. Vader has proven that the choke is something he favors and is extremely good at, so if Dooku could prevent it, as you seem so adamant to proclaim, then vader should have no problem breaking it either, ergo Lightning would be his best bet. And Vader, like Kadesh said, has more fore powers than choke as well.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lets look at the movies. Dooku wtf pwns Anakin with a quick and easy burst of lightning. True, Obi-Wan does block the lightning when it is sent at him. Although to me the lightning looks very weak and was there more to intimidate Kenobi as oppose to eliminate him. Then there is Sidious' lightning which wtf pwned Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. So no, I hardly see how Vader is going to block the lightning with 'no problem' as you put it.

yes, let's look at the movies...Anakin - hit, OB1 - blocked, Yoda - blocked (twice), mace blocked and redirected on to the user, which affected sidious more than Mace (mace died from the fall people), the only reason mace was even hit, was because Anakin interfered. Mace could have blocked that all day, as apparent by the movie. Yoda - hit with a short blast, Yoda - blocked (twice again) temporarily by saber then by hands, again redirecting it back to the user. Then Luke - hit, no saber. Vader was indirect and wasn't meant to be hit.

So lets tally - hit - 4.5 (i say half cause Vader was technically hit, but not the target.) blocked - 6, and in that 6 it was blocked, redirected twice, and absorbed. So yes, by looking at the movies it reaffirms my original point...thank you. Vader is far more powerful that AOTC OB1 who blocked it with "no problem", so yes Vader could as well.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Fair enough. But lets look at the properties of a choke. The user attempts to kill/K.O the opponent by choking them out. In theory, if Dooku can break Vaders concentration, it will break the hold. I don't doubt that if Vader continuously performed the manouvre it would beat win him the battle, but I hardly see him whipping out a force choke every 10 seconds - especially against a much faster opponent.

ok, i hardly see Dooku breaking Vader's concentration...how do you propose he would do that? And again, what good is being fast if you're being choked to death? This can go back and forth all day.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I don't see what point you are trying to make. I don't see why Dooku wouldnt be as strong, if not stronger in ROTS than in AOTC. After all, he did have his array of Dark Acolytes to train and what not.

Cause he was getting older, he's a human, so age would eventually play a part, unlike someone say like Yoda whose species can obviously live hundreds of years. That part, to me, is speculation, but he didn't seem as powerful in ROTS as he did in AOTC. Perhaps cause he didn't have time, what with getting pwned and all.

Originally posted by Sexyback
By watching TPM, and then watching the OT. Maul is far more skilled, and his speed and agility would likely overwhelm Vader in seconds.
You cant compare skill levels when one is going all out and the other isn't. That's just no logical at all. Jumping and flipping around is useless if you're being bullied with the force. Maul's a tool when it comes to the force.

Originally posted by Sexyback
He still kept up with him before using the darkside, Vader wouldn't be able to do shit to Maul.
He was keeping up with him when QGJ was still there to help. He didn't utilize the darkside til Jinn was killed. Point collapsed.

Originally posted by Sexyback
And I would agree with that.
Hardly. Jinn didn't display anything to suggest being able to pwn Vader.

Originally posted by Sexyback
No, that's not what I'm saying Mr. Strawman, all I'm saying is that by GL's own admission, anybody in the PT movies who we actually properly see fight is a better duelist than Vader, we don't ever see Serra Keto properly fight, that wasn't my argument.
Ok seriously, the strawman shit is corny. And that is your argument. She was a PT duelist, just cause we don't see her fight doesn't mean she wasn't a PT duelist. Also, GL did not say "Anybody from the PT is a better duelist that Vader." Those words never left his mouth. He said the Pt duelists were overall better, but that is in no way indicative that any one from the PT can defeat Vader. As I'm sure Ox will agree, Dooku with his form is technically;;y a better duelist that ROTS Anakin, but look what happened...A young kid with 1 mastered form, completely pwned a BM.

Originally posted by Sexyback
I'm not twisting shit. You are
(a) Misconstruing my argument.
(b) Arguing against canon.

Gl makes it clear that the duels we see in the PT are much faster and better, and that the OT duelists are clearly lacking in skills in comparison to the PT duelists. And that's really not that hard to believe Subject, you're just being a fanboy if you disagree, and arguing against canon.

So I'm sorry, but you have lost. Dooku is a better duelist than Vader, much better. It's a fact.

And just so you know, choke can be blocked, refer to PoD.

no no, I'm not arguing against canon, I'm "Interpreting it differently" as to not be spoon fed by GL and LChee...right? The "Duels" were faster and flashier in the PT, and yes they were slower in the OT, but for obvious reasons...but i know that halfassed excuse that GL gave is canon, at least until the show comes out. And who the hell are you to call anyone a fanboy, "Kas'I'm"? Obviously it's not a fact, as you haven't proven shit. Post a scan from PoD please, if it is in there.

jollyjim311

Jim: Yo what up lame-ass transitive property?
Lame-ass transitive property: This!!!

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=020

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=025
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=026
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=027

Jim:... WTF was that about?
Lame-ass transitive property: Well, you see, the first scan shows that individual, Kir Kanos, being compared to the likes of a Jedi. The additional posts show someone assumed to be on par with Kir Kanos (and thus a Jedi) getting WTFZOMGSTFULOLERSKATEZROFLBBQPWN3D by Vader. Thus, Jedi = Kir Kanos. Kir Kanos = Other guy. Other Guy<<<<<< Vader. Therefore, Jedi <<<<<< Vader.
Jim: Wow, your argument is filled with holes. That old man is fallible, we don't know what Jedi he's seen fight, and, in actuality, it just doesn't really work...
Lame-ass transitive property: Still, it does kind of add up. Also, the author had to put it in there for a reason, and even without my visually awkward math, the feat itself is very impressive.
Jim: I guess you're right...

Scene.

Sexyback

Hold up, so Vader wasn't going full out against Ben in ANH. Good luck proving that.

And again, I was only talking about saber ability, so I don't see why you're bringing up all this bs about the force.

Don't try that bs with me Subjekt, my point isn't collapsed, he still displayed some competence against Maul, and some skill, more than Vader ever displayed. And so what if he used the darkside, as if Vader doesn't?

Speed, agility and skill, much more than vader did.

Well if you try that shit with me, that is what you shall be called.

No she wasn't. PT refers to the movies, not the era. Serra Keto never appeared in the movies. And George Lucas made it clear that he was only referring to those who appear in the movie, given that he was talking in respect to choreography.

'I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we had already done, but a more energized version of it because we've actually never seen real jedis at work, we've only seen old men and crippled half droid half men and young boys that have learned from these people'

It's there in black and white Subject, GL makes it clear that the OT duelists are inferior to the PT duelists.

What is your point?

That's a typical excuse from someone arguing against canon, 'interpreting it differently', don't be silly.

I'm sorry, but what GL says goes.

Until then, you'll just have to accept that Vader sucks.

Ignoring canon and letting bias shroud your decisions makes you a fanboy Subjekt.

I don't have to, anyone else who has read it will confirm it, just ask Sexy.