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Wikipedia defines a tragic hero as, "a protagonist with a tragic flaw, also known as a fatal flaw, which eventually leads to his demise."
I know that in DMC, Jack was a tragic hero. He had good qualities, but has a fatal flaw (not paying his debts with Davy Jones), and he gets eaten by the Kracken (=his demise). I was talking to my friend who is a J/E shipper, but doesn't think Liz and Jack will end up together. She says it's because he will stay a tragic hero. The flaw in the J/E relationship, she says, is that they can never be. So Jack will end up sailing away while Liz and Will get married. And Jack's demise will be not ending up with Elizabeth. Sadly, this makes perfect sense to me, and it seems like there's a very good chance of it happening.
She also compared it to the movie Shane. A woman is married to a farmer guy, but they aren't really in love anymore. Shane comes along and the woman and Shane fall in love, but in the end, Shane has to leave because the woman and he can never be together. Therefore, Shane is a tragic hero, just like Jack may be. If you think about it, there is a good chance that this will happen in Pirates 3.
Anyone else think anything different?

Good stuff Hambah. I know we had a discussion like this a while back, but at that point we had settled on Will as the tragic hero, because his tragic flaw centers around his honor/committment to saving his dad and Elizabeth.
It makes sense for Jack as well though of course, because Jack's tragic flaw is his honest streak.

However, this doesnt follow any sort of tragic plotline (its more of a melodrama with action/adventure) so though they may model some characters off stock types, i dont think their endings will be consistent to a traditional stock.

Not only is Jack a tragic hero but he smells. :-)

No he doesn't, I bet he smells like a rose garden

Originally posted by Pirates life fo
Not only is Jack a tragic hero but he smells. :-)

but wouldnt you agree that on those ships, in those days, with that plumbing and hygeine, ALL OF THEM would smell just as bad???

Agree Kate, thank God Jack Sparrow is a fictional character, if he was real I wouldn't even look at him.

Oh yeah they all stink. Look at Sparrow. How often do you think he bathes?!? They dont have showers or washing machines. Sure he is fictional but the guy has got to be nasty!!

Ok let me step out of this thread, I'm having random thoughts about JS, and I'm becoming nauseous.

In that period it wouldnt matter as much as it would now. Imagine how you would smell after not bathing for a week. Now imagine not bathing for a month and working long hot days in unwashed, wet, moldy clothes.

EWWWW Stop it

I bet the lice is running rampant on the Pearl.

damn LMAO I am starting not to like Jack Sparrow

Hehehe...Muhahaha

Just look at it this way. If you kiss him you will completely forget the stench from his clothes and body. You will be completely focused on how bad that breath is!!!

naw, cause you will smell so bad yourself you will be used to it and not even notice it. plus you will be thinking about how this is going to affect your relationship with your fiance and how you can make the kiss last a bit longer.

I disagree Kate

Actually you wouldnt smell near as bad. The only place you might come across Jack Sparrow is if he attacked the ship you were on to pillage and plunder. Unless you were a strumpet then you would be higher class and have access to bathing more often.

Then I would rather be a strumpet, but I wouldn't go near Jack.

You would rather be a strumpet than an upper class lady?

Well of course I would rather be an upper class lady, I would take showers everyday. That would be much better.

Then you dont want to be a strumpet. I was saying that if you arent a strumpet then you are probably higher class and more well groomed.
Yeah you would definately smell Jack coming from a mile away

smelled Jack from a mile away? how about 50. Anyways I wonder if the upper class people used some kind of fragrances or perfumes. There had to be something. LOL

Yes perfumes were quite popular. You might only bath a few times a week if you are wealthy but you had the perfumes to get through the times when you couldnt

That's why perfume was invented. They had to have something to cover up the stench. Even the upper classes didn't bathe that regularly, though they did so more than the commoners. To the superstitious, bathing was thought to steal the soul, so they rarely bathed. The upper classes did so infrequently because they thought you could 'catch your death' of cold.

If they bathe a few times per week, using perfumes to cover the odors might make it worse. Imagine living in the Caribbean is hot as heck all year round. Even on winter the highest temp can reach up to 85 degrees

Not to mention, think about all the layers they wore while living in the Caribbean. It's not exactly conducive to smelling like a rose.

I know, why did they have to cover themselves from head to toe in those temperatures?

It was the style back then. Anything less than those layers was considered scandalous. Makes you wonder what they would think of our clothing today? They'd probably faint.

Well I would have been consired an scandalous person if I lived in that decade, thank God for the 21st century and shorts

Thank God for hot guys like Johnny

AMEN!

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
Thank God for hot guys like Johnny

AMEN!

That to
AMEN!

I don't know what this has to do with Jack being a tragic hero, which I don't think he really is. He's flawed, but that makes him more of an anti-hero than a tragic one.

Yes I see him more as an anti-hero, I can picture Will being the tragic hero though

I dont think there are no heroes in this film as in like skills and saving the day like super man. I think the kind of heroes in this film are Jack and Liz, I think they both saved eachother emotionaly.

Wow Mina good thinking, I can agree w/ you on that one.

If Elizabeth can seduce Jack looking (and probably smelling) the way she did, pretty much like a wreck, then i dont have any trouble believing that Jack somehow manages to smell pleasant. i would imagine that Jack smells most strongly of alcohol, which can actually be a nice smell sometimes.

Pirateslifefo, are you anti-Jack? Or did you get to kiss him and therefore know first hand about the smell factor?

I dont understand, if you couldn't stand the smell of Jack, how come she leaned again for another almost kiss?

You lose your sense of smell when you are h****y. Or, you've had too much rum to drink with rum sotted, wobbly legged pirates.

Love smells wonderful lol

Originally posted by katelovespirate
If Elizabeth can seduce Jack looking (and probably smelling) the way she did, pretty much like a wreck, then i dont have any trouble believing that Jack somehow manages to smell pleasant. i would imagine that Jack smells most strongly of alcohol, which can actually be a nice smell sometimes.

Pirateslifefo, are you anti-Jack? Or did you get to kiss him and therefore know first hand about the smell factor?

Well I based it off commonsense. Do you think there is a hot shower on the Pearl? trust me there isnt. Do you think Pirates cared how they smelled? I seriously doubt it.

Jack's breath would smell strongly of alcohol but unless he poured rum over his body then Im guessing its just the breath that smelled that way.

yh.....tht wud probably be even worse since hes obssesed with it lol.

Do you think Pirates cared how they smelled? I seriously doubt it.
----Pirates life fo

mmmmmm but i seriously wud lol

since when hygiene is important for pirates? Especially with Jack and Liz. She threw that "personal hygiene" crap because she's looking for excuses to not perform the "ma-rri-age" with him.

She made a bunch of excuses, but she could've used only ONE excuse, which is the most important and reasonable: Shes getting married to Will.

But she didn't bother saying Will or that I love Will, she just made a whole list of excuses that were silly.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
since when hygiene is important for pirates? Especially with Jack and Liz. She threw that "personal hygiene" crap because she's looking for excuses to not perform the "ma-rri-age" with him.

She made a bunch of excuses, but she could've used only ONE excuse, which is the most important and reasonable: Shes getting married to Will.

But she didn't bother saying Will or that I love Will, she just made a whole list of excuses that were silly.

Omg exactly!!!! Mina u hit that right in the *u know where* lol.....that is sooooooo true not once did she mention WILL NOT ONCE....she did what only a woman capable of cheating or possibly want something would do.....she avoided WILL and bringing up his name!!!! When Jack said you will cross over to me I Know it....she could have said NO I WONT because i am Marriying Will and I Love him....but she's more concerned about other things....about Hygiene, and a moral center and lidt goes on...but NONE OF THE EXCUSES WERE I LOVE WILL!

so true i noticed that too when u think about cheating the first person to come up is your partner or in liz's condition Will she never once said Will name unless u count taht one time "to save Will" when she opened the compass for the first time and the one i most truly thought she would of said Will was when norrington talked to her about her looking like that while thinking of sparrow she just said "i trust him thats all" not im in love with Will not him or any thing to suggest she loves will

Yeah, the fact Will isn't on her mind very much really says something. If in another plot line Jack had to take a detour, she'd get sucked right in and forget about Will, maybe not forever, but at least long enough to make things difficult.

Jack: You will come over to my side. I know it.
Liz: You seem very certain.

This is the thing about Liz and I think Jack likes it, she can't stand not having the upperhand. That's good in most cases, such as getting away from Barbossa, but in this case, a woman with no feelings would have said things like...I don't know....

1. You WISH
2. Psh, talk to the hand
3. (laughs)
4. Whatever
5. No

A woman with feelings for another man would say things like this:

1. My side is Will's side.
2. Do you enjoy baiting ENGAGED women?
3. Did you forget what I just said? I said I wanted to be married...to Will.

"You seem very certain." She wants to hear more. She wants him around her more. The arguing is classic behavior, and Keira does it well. Just see "Pride and Prejudice" if you don't believe me. Part of the relieved look she gives Will when he turns up on the beach is "oh yeah, Will," imo. She had forgotten him, getting caught up in pirates searching for adventure and wondering about her feelings for Jack.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Yeah, the fact Will isn't on her mind very much really says something. If in another plot line Jack had to take a detour, she'd get sucked right in and forget about Will, maybe not forever, but at least long enough to make things difficult.

Jack: You will come over to my side. I know it.
Liz: You seem very certain.

This is the thing about Liz and I think Jack likes it, she can't stand not having the upperhand. That's good in most cases, such as getting away from Barbossa, but in this case, a woman with no feelings would have said things like...I don't know....

1. You WISH
2. Psh, talk to the hand
3. (laughs)
4. Whatever
5. No

A woman with feelings for another man would say things like this:

1. My side is Will's side.
2. Do you enjoy baiting ENGAGED women?
3. Did you forget what I just said? I said I wanted to be married...to Will.

"You seem very certain." She wants to hear more. She wants him around her more. The arguing is classic behavior, and Keira does it well. Just see "Pride and Prejudice" if you don't believe me. Part of the relieved look she gives Will when he turns up on the beach is "oh yeah, Will," imo. She had forgotten him, getting caught up in pirates searching for adventure and wondering about her feelings for Jack.

thats right she was just adding wood to the fire....she wanted to hear more she was instigating for more! she never turned the conversation over to her and Will....she never even brought up Will....she kept the conversation about Jack and Liz....NO ONE ELSE!