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OK the scenario is there are flags located all around the world in every city in every country on the planet and the three contestants have to grab them the contestant with the most flags wins. There are no Humans on the planet so they are free to utilise their speed to the fullest of capabilities so who wins?

Originally posted by Supreme being
OK the scenario is there are flags located all around the world in every city in every country on the planet and the three contestants have to grab them the contestant with the most flags wins. There are no Humans on the planet so they are free to utilise their speed to the fullest of capabilities so who wins?


Awsome thread but flash smokes these two jokers.

Yeah I agree, Flash from Kingdom Come "lived between the ticks of a second"

He should take this.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah I agree, Flash from Kingdom Come "lived between the ticks of a second"

He should take this.

Ok he may live between the ticks of a second but isnt it possible for both surfer and the runner to perceive or do the same?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok he may live between the ticks of a second but isnt it possible for both surfer and the runner to perceive or do the same? yep, but Runner toyed /w/ Surfer, so SS won't be a factor here at all.

This fight is really just between Runner and Flash, and I personally feel that KC Flash could beat Runner in a race, but who knows?

Originally posted by Galan007

This fight is really just between Runner and Flash, and I personally feel that KC Flash could beat Runner in a race, but who knows?

That basically sums this thread up I dont even think Flash did anything in KC except be described. We dont have enough information I think Runner would win beacuse he has been around longer.

Originally posted by Alfheim
That basically sums this thread up I dont even think Flash did anything in KC except be described. We dont have enough information I think Runner would win beacuse he has been around longer. Well Flash's greatest feats were guarding an entire city by himself, and showing the ability to transverse through different dimensions, but thats pretty much it.

Remember though, Runner isn't exactly the feat king either

Another thing to note is that Kingdom Come Flash never slept or ran out of energy. Surfer has a limit. Not sure about Runner though.

Originally posted by Galan007


Remember though, Runner isn't exactly the feat king either


Thats due to lack of appearances thats all. As far as I know SS can travel several times the speed of light so Runner could do much more. If you can run at light speed that automitically enables you to time travel.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Another thing to note is that Kingdom Come Flash never slept or ran out of energy. Surfer has a limit. Not sure about Runner though.

Silver Surfer and Runner don't sleep or run out of energy either, so this is a non-factor.

Runner is faster than Surfer, one of the few beings that is faster, so logically we can eliminate Surfer from the competition.

I'm going to go with Runner on this one. He has lived over 5 billion years just running throughout the universe non-stop. He is one of the few people who was capable of beating Thanos senseless, while Thanos has his tech chair no less, that's a feat even the Hulk can't claim, and shows just how fast he is.

Runner FTW. He is basically like Flash if you gave him Silver Surfer's powers. Being billions of years old gives him the experience to take this competition hands down.

Runner for the win. Runner has been around longer.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats due to lack of appearances thats all. KC Flash was only seen on like 3-4pgs, so he lacks appearences as well

Originally posted by Alfheim
As far as I know SS can travel several times the speed of light so Runner could do much more. Not really, Runner and Surfer weren't racing or anything, so I'd doubt they were moving several times the speed of light, but they may have been....... I know that they can move at such speeds, but I don't think they were in that particular fight.

Originally posted by Alfheim
If you can run at light speed that automitically enables you to time travel. Not true, several characters in Marvel and DC alike can run or fly at the speed of light, but most of them have never traveled through time.

Originally posted by Galan007
yep, but Runner toyed /w/ Surfer, so SS won't be a factor here at all.

This fight is really just between Runner and Flash, and I personally feel that KC Flash could beat Runner in a race, but who knows?

Saying somone who travels at millions of times the speed of light will not be a factor is insane. SS and Runner are pretty much the fastest people in MU and combined they should be able to take KCF in capture the flags.

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Saying somone who travels at millions of times the speed of light will not be a factor is insane. SS and Runner are pretty much the fastest people in MU and combined they should be able to take KCF in capture the flags. I meant he is not a factor as far as winning this, because we know for sure that Runner is faster.

Originally posted by Galan007
KC Flash was only seen on like 3-4pgs, so he lacks appearences as well

Not really, Runner and Surfer weren't racing or anything, so I'd doubt they were moving several times the speed of light, but they may have been....... who knows?

Not true, several characters in Marvel and DC alike can run or fly at the speed of light, but most of them have never traveled through time.

Wait, are you suggesting that SS and The Runner can't travel faster than the speed of light?

The third part is true, but we know SS can, and we know the runner is able to achieve speeds in SSs range.

Originally posted by Galan007
I meant he is not a factor as far as winning this, because we know for sure that Runner is faster.

Edit, read post wrong, I am an idiot

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Wait, are you suggesting that SS and The Runner can't travel faster than the speed of light? Where did I say that?

Look at my post again, I made a few edits to make it more clear.

Originally posted by Galan007


Not really, Runner and Surfer weren't racing or anything, so I'd doubt they were moving several times the speed of light, but they may have been....... who knows?

yes but since Runner is more powerful we coudl assume he is faster. Especvially since he is called the Runner as well.

Originally posted by Galan007

Not true, several characters in Marvel and DC alike can run or fly at the speed of light, but most of them have never traveled through time.

Well ok its just physics if you travel at light speed you will time travel but of course comic book physics is different. At any rate Runner is much faster than SS and SS can travel several times the speed oif light. Surely the Runner can time travel.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Silver Surfer and Runner don't sleep or run out of energy either, so this is a non-factor.

False. Surfer has said himself more than once that his power isnt limitless. Using too much of it in duration drains him. Its a huge factor here.

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Edit, read post wrong, I am an idiot This isn't a team effort, its simply a race where the guy with the most flags wins.

And we know for sure that Surfer wont win.

Originally posted by Alfheim
yes but since Runner is more powerful we coudl assume he is faster. Im sure that Runner is much faster, I just don't think they were moving at several times the speed of light when they fought, thats all.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok its just physics if you travel at light speed you will time travel but of course comic book physics is different. At any rate Runner is much faster than SS and SS can travel several times the speed oif light. Surely the Runner can time travel. Right, but I'm not just going to assume Runner can time travel if he has never done it.

Originally posted by Galan007
This isn't a team effort, its simply a race where the guy with the most flags wins.

And we know for sure that Surfer wont win.

yeah sorry that is why I edited my post. I have to learn to read

Originally posted by Galan007

Right, but I'm not just going to assume Runner can time travel if he has never done it.

Yes but you could assume that because flash's ability to time travel is due to his speed therefore it is likely that The Runner can do the same. Eventhough Runner is froma different universe they are both top tier speedsters therefore they both you should be able to have similar feats.

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
yeah sorry that is why I edited my post. I have to learn to read lol, i have the same damn problem.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but you could assume that because flash's ability to time travel is due to his speed therefore it is likely that The Runner can do the same. Eventhough Runner is froma different universe they are both top tier speedsters therefore they both you should be able to have similar feats. meh...... untill I see it, I don't like to assume things.

Originally posted by Galan007
meh...... untill I see it, I don't like to assume things.

Well ok....true, but in all fairness I think what I said was logical. I think we both have valid points.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well ok....true, but in all fairness I think what I said was logical. I think we both have valid points. I agree, both points are logical

Originally posted by Galan007
I agree, both points are logical

Well thats the end of that then. Nice to be able to agree to disagree without being called names.

For those saying SS is not a factor in this race i strongly disagree perhaps the surfer isn't the best speedblitzer around but this isn't speed blitzing its travelling speed.

Originally posted by Supreme being
For those saying SS is not a factor in this race i strongly disagree perhaps the surfer isn't the best speedblitzer around but this isn't speed blitzing its travelling speed.

People are saying that Surfer is a non-factor because Runner has beaten him in speed. Surfer has travelled several thousand light years in a blink of an eye (during IG when he tried to snatch the gauntlet from Thanos). So that's billions to trillions times faster than the speed of light, and yet the Runner was even faster than that.

In regards to the fatigue statement, the Surfer does not need to eat or sleep, and will not run out of energy from flying. If he uses a huge expenditure of energy doing a blast or what not he will become tired, but he won't tire from conventional travel and has no need to eat, sleep or rest. His body is entirely sealed and is self-sustained on cosmic energy that is ambient throughout the universe. As he travels he naturally collects it, so there is no need to pause to get it back, it comes back just by moving around.

There was a comic in the silver surfer arc where he was stuck in a city that limited cosmic radiation and he slowly lost his cosmic power. He was instantly restored to full strength the moment they jettisoned him into space.

If he is in a huge battle and is knocked out, then it will take time to recover as he has suffered injuries or exhausted his power, but he will never fatigue from simple travel alone, as the majority of work is done by his surfboard which requires no extra energy to use.

Originally posted by Kutulu
People are saying that Surfer is a non-factor because Runner has beaten him in speed. Surfer has travelled several thousand light years in a blink of an eye (during IG when he tried to snatch the gauntlet from Thanos). So that's billions to trillions times faster than the speed of light, and yet the Runner was even faster than that.

In regards to the fatigue statement, the Surfer does not need to eat or sleep, and will not run out of energy from flying. If he uses a huge expenditure of energy doing a blast or what not he will become tired, but he won't tire from conventional travel and has no need to eat, sleep or rest. His body is entirely sealed and is self-sustained on cosmic energy that is ambient throughout the universe. As he travels he naturally collects it, so there is no need to pause to get it back, it comes back just by moving around.

There was a comic in the silver surfer arc where he was stuck in a city that limited cosmic radiation and he slowly lost his cosmic power. He was instantly restored to full strength the moment they jettisoned him into space.

If he is in a huge battle and is knocked out, then it will take time to recover as he has suffered injuries or exhausted his power, but he will never fatigue from simple travel alone, as the majority of work is done by his surfboard which requires no extra energy to use.

Surfer hasn't shown the ability to be able to speedblitz per say, And as you yourself have stated he can move incredibly fast in terms of travelling therefore i think his a factor in this race.

To tell the truth, I not positive that the Runner is faster than the Surfer anymore. They fought quite a while ago, and Surfer has been written more and more powerful as time's went by. I'm not saying that he' definitely faster or that Marvel's gonna win(I have no familiarity with this particular version of the Flash), but there's a BIG difference in the power levels of the Surfer during the fight with Runner, and the Surfer that's around now.

Originally posted by Supreme being
Surfer hasn't shown the ability to be able to speedblitz per say, And as you yourself have stated he can move incredibly fast in terms of travelling therefore i think his a factor in this race.

You are missing the point. Silver Surfer is very fast, probably faster than KC flash, but the Runner is faster than the Surfer. It's the process of elimination. We know that Runner is faster than Surfer, so you take Surfer out of the picture. Therefore Surfer is a non-factor. That doesn't mean that Surfer isn't super-fast, as he is one of the fastest heroes in Marvel, can travel literally billions times the speed of light, it just means that he is less fast than the Runner.

Surfer has travelled backwards in time before, btw, so he is capable of time travel.

Basically what I am saying is that whatever the Surfer has done in terms of speed, the Runner is even faster than that.

Here is Surfer travelling so fast Genis can barely hang on:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_Vol3-006.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_Vol3-007.jpg

Notice it says "galaxies streak past them in a blur". That's at least a half million light years travelled within the span of a few seconds.

Here he is travelling backwards in time, by using a wave of energy:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1997_129_04.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1997_129_05.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
To tell the truth, I not positive that the Runner is faster than the Surfer anymore. They fought quite a while ago, and Surfer has been written more and more powerful as time's went by. I'm not saying that he' definitely faster or that Marvel's gonna win(I have no familiarity with this particular version of the Flash), but there's a BIG difference in the power levels of the Surfer during the fight with Runner, and the Surfer that's around now.

The Runner is faster, and there is a good reason too. To the Runner, speed is all there is, he lives to run. That's his single motivation in life, that's all his powers are geared towards doing to the utmost extent. He has lived for billions of years just to run. That's why he is an Elder of the Universe. His will is so focused it literally stopped him from dying and granted him cosmic power, of which there has been billions of years to perfect and train upon.

If Surfer was 5 billion years old, then yeah he would probably be more powerful than the runner, but he is only several hundred years old, not an elder of the universe that has been running from galaxy to galaxy before planet Earth had even formed into a ball of molten rock.

Here is another example of a time feat by Surfer:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_051-08.jpg

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_051-09.jpg

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_051-12.jpg

With enough practice in using his Powers, Surfer eventually will be able to transcend the boundries of space and time and move at infinite speed. In the meantime the Runner is still faster though.

Oh and Surfer can travel forwards in time too:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1997_131_19.jpg

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_1997_131_22.jpg

Good Posts Kutulu.

I also like your mention of the IG speed blitz attempt on Thanos. I think it is the clearest speed feat around. He goes literally a light year in the tiniest fraction of a second. Also as I recall there is nothing in the panel that states he was only going light speed or some junk like that.

shifty


Runner defeats surfer almost effortlessly. Seems he was toying with him.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer1.jpg

Runner easily dodges pc blasts.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer2.jpg

Surfer gets pissed off...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer3.jpg

Runner slows down and confronts surfer hand to hand in a test of power.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer4.jpg

Surfer realizes that runner is much more powerful than he is. He is brought down to his knees and is defeated. Runner didnt look to be going all out at all.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer5.jpg

ps. - This battle was without the space gem.

Originally posted by darthgoober
(I have no familiarity with this particular version of the Flash) KC Flash was only seen on like 3 pages that were of any consequence, but here are his feats...

He guarded an entire city by himself.

"No one sees him, no one hears him, but everyone has felt his presence"

"He is everywhere at once"
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6773/flash1zn3.th.jpg


Flash also can transcend all planes of existance, all strata of reality is open to him. He demonstrated this when he pulled the man observing KC from another plane of reality:
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8573/flash2qr8.th.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/396/flash3qm4.th.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
shifty


Runner defeats surfer almost effortlessly. Seems he was toying with him.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer1.jpg

Runner easily dodges pc blasts.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer2.jpg

Surfer gets pissed off...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer3.jpg

Runner slows down and confronts surfer hand to hand in a test of power.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer4.jpg

Surfer realizes that runner is much more powerful than he is. He is brought down to his knees and is defeated. Runner didnt look to be going all out at all.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer5.jpg

ps. - This battle was without the space gem.

Do you have the scans from the issues following that? Everyone uses that to show how Runner owns SS but I seem to remember more equal fighting in the SS issues which followed. This was all part of the elders plan to kill Galactus. I don't have the scans and it has been a while. But I seem to remember thinking they were more of equals after this.

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Do you have the scans from the issues following that? Everyone uses that to show how Runner owns SS but I seem to remember more equal fighting in the SS issues which followed. This was all part of the elders plan to kill Galactus. I don't have the scans and it has been a while. But I seem to remember thinking they were more of equals after this. I only have those scans

KMC flash was so fast that he could be everywhere at once. He was like the living speed force. He was an abstract. On another lvl than either of these two. He was existing in different dimensions and planes of reality at once. He could complete the entire contest before either move one inch.

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Do you have the scans from the issues following that? Everyone uses that to show how Runner owns SS but I seem to remember more equal fighting in the SS issues which followed. This was all part of the elders plan to kill Galactus. I don't have the scans and it has been a while. But I seem to remember thinking they were more of equals after this.
They never fought in the next issue. Mantis tripped Runner, while Ego was keeping Surfer busy. Then when Surfer busted out of a volcano, he grabbed Mantis and they flew away.

Originally posted by darthgoober
They never fought in the next issue. Mantis tripped Runner, while Ego was keeping Surfer busy. Then when Surfer busted out of a volcano, he grabbed Mantis and they flew away.

Interesting, I am going to have to find those comics when I get home. I thought they met a few times over the next several issues, leading to the fight with the InBetweener. I could easily be wrong about this, it has been a while.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
KMC flash was so fast that he could be everywhere at once. He was like the living speed force. He was an abstract. On another lvl than either of these two. He was existing in different dimensions and planes of reality at once. He could complete the entire contest before either move one inch.

You're being utterly ridiculous with this statement, but it's par for the course with your postings. Silver Surfer can travel backwards and forwards through the timestream and step through multiple realities as well.

Silver Surfer can go to any dimension he's ever been in:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Thor_443-22.jpg

He has escaped from being trapped in the Soul Gem, something that almost nobody else has done:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/silver_surfer_1988_008_21.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/silver_surfer_1988_008_22.jpg

Here he travels so fast that the fabric of space itself warps around him:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/ss_enslavers_06.jpg

Here is the scan where he travels a lightyear in far less than a second (speedblitz):
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/InfinityGauntlet4p35.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/InfinityGauntlet4p36.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/InfinityGauntlet4p37.jpg

Originally posted by Stupid Rookie
Interesting, I am going to have to find those comics when I get home. I thought they met a few times over the next several issues, leading to the fight with the InBetweener. I could easily be wrong about this, it has been a while.

The elders did accompany the in-betweener when he went to confront Galactus, but Surfer and the Runner havent' fought again that I recall.

Originally posted by Galan007
KC Flash was only seen on like 3 pages that were of any consequence, but here are his feats...

He guarded an entire city by himself.

"No one sees him, no one hears him, but everyone has felt his presence"

"He is everywhere at once"
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6773/flash1zn3.th.jpg


Flash also can transcend all planes of existance, all strata of reality is open to him. He demonstrated this when he pulled the man observing KC from another plane of reality:
http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/8573/flash2qr8.th.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/396/flash3qm4.th.jpg

Excellent scans by the way. It doesn't show KC Flash travelling past galaxies in outer space though, from what I can see all of his feats were Earth based, which compared to the size of a single galaxy is very very very small. Flash does seem to operate better within an atmosphere, however, which is what makes the contest tricky to judge.

I'm still going to stick with the Runner as the winner though, 5 billion years experience goes a long way

Originally posted by Kutulu
Excellent scans by the way. It doesn't show KC Flash travelling past galaxies in outer space though, from what I can see all of his feats were Earth based, which compared to the size of a single galaxy is very very very small. Flash does seem to operate better within an atmosphere, however, which is what makes the contest tricky to judge.Yeah if this contest was in Space, then I'd say Runner undoubtedly takes this, but since its on a planet I still feel that Falsh could take the majority.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I'm still going to stick with the Runner as the winner though, 5 billion years experience goes a long way He could very well take this, but it would be very close either way. I honestly don't see Surfer as too much of a factor simply because he dosen't have many good speed feats on a planet. In the vacuum of space moving faster is much easier

Anyone else?

Originally posted by Kutulu
You're being utterly ridiculous with this statement, but it's par for the course with your postings. Silver Surfer can travel backwards and forwards through the timestream and step through multiple realities as well.

Silver Surfer can go to any dimension he's ever been in:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Thor_443-22.jpg

He has escaped from being trapped in the Soul Gem, something that almost nobody else has done:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/silver_surfer_1988_008_21.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/silver_surfer_1988_008_22.jpg

Here he travels so fast that the fabric of space itself warps around him:
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/ss_enslavers_06.jpg

Here is the scan where he travels a lightyear in far less than a second (speedblitz):
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/InfinityGauntlet4p35.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/InfinityGauntlet4p36.jpg
http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/InfinityGauntlet4p37.jpg

I"m being utterly rediculous when KMC flash had merfed witht he Speed force itself. Come again?

Originally posted by Kutulu
You are missing the point. Silver Surfer is very fast, probably faster than KC flash, but the Runner is faster than the Surfer. It's the process of elimination. We know that Runner is faster than Surfer, so you take Surfer out of the picture. Therefore Surfer is a non-factor. That doesn't mean that Surfer isn't super-fast, as he is one of the fastest heroes in Marvel, can travel literally billions times the speed of light, it just means that he is less fast than the Runner.

Surfer has travelled backwards in time before, btw, so he is capable of time travel.

Basically what I am saying is that whatever the Surfer has done in terms of speed, the Runner is even faster than that.



You my dear friend are missing the point what i stated and clearly is that there is a clear difference in terms of speed Blitzing and travelling speed and the latter is what surfer excels at.

Originally posted by Supreme being
Originally posted by Kutulu
You are missing the point. Silver Surfer is very fast, probably faster than KC flash, but the Runner is faster than the Surfer. It's the process of elimination. We know that Runner is faster than Surfer, so you take Surfer out of the picture. Therefore Surfer is a non-factor. That doesn't mean that Surfer isn't super-fast, as he is one of the fastest heroes in Marvel, can travel literally billions times the speed of light, it just means that he is less fast than the Runner.

Surfer has travelled backwards in time before, btw, so he is capable of time travel.

Basically what I am saying is that whatever the Surfer has done in terms of speed, the Runner is even faster than that.



You my dear friend are missing the point what i stated and clearly is that there is a clear difference in terms of speed Blitzing and travelling speed and the latter is what surfer excels at.

How can the Surfer be Superior to a being composed of the Speed force? What sense does that make?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
How can the Surfer be Superior to a being composed of the Speed force? What sense does that make?

Please read my statement again it was in reference to surfer and runner.

Originally posted by Supreme being
Please read my statement again it was in reference to surfer and runner.

Sorry

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Sorry

No problem its cool.

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah if this contest was in Space, then I'd say Runner undoubtedly takes this, but since its on a planet I still feel that Falsh could take the majority.

He could very well take this, but it would be very close either way. I honestly don't see Surfer as too much of a factor simply because he dosen't have many good speed feats on a planet. In the vacuum of space moving faster is much easier

Runner has NO speed feats to my knowledge on a planet. When he ran at Mantis on Ego Mantis had enough time to get out of the way and trip him. That is the only case I can think of.

And as stated KC Flash has 3 pages. When talking to Thor SS checked the entire planet for someone in a second. The scan is in the respect thread.

Basically that is a better planet based feat than anything else I could come up with KCF or Runner.

Also important to note that people are basing much of the Runner's speed on their fight, and you have to remember the way the runner makes people like him. Even when he was blasting SS, he was saying how he like the Runner.

Oh, and the Grandmaster says SS was weakend from his battle with him and Korvac. Not sure if that is true, but interesting.