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Hi guys, I just finished reading Betrayal and I have a shitload of questions that deal with inconsistencies of the star wars universe. I've discussed some of this with lightsnake but I'd like to get some of your opinions.

First question is the most important. At age 25, Jacen Solo is a complete master of the force, while at age 22-23, Anakin wasn't even close, and neither was Luke. So are they trying to tell us that Jacen's potential is bigger than the chosen one and his son? Or that Jacen's teachings were of better quality compared to Anakin and certainly Luke? It really makes no sense to me here.

Another question is, why are they making it seem that Jacen at 25 is as powerful as Luke is at 60? Are they implying he's going to become more powerful than Luke? Certainly his quality of teachings at 25 is superior to Luke's at 25, but apparently Luke's potential is equal to that of his father, and canonically, they have the highest potential in the history of SW. I don't mind Jacen being all this powerful but they're treading on thin ice here in terms of contradicting the concept of star wars.

Remember that neither Luke nor Anakin were young when they began their training, whereas Jacen has been trained almost from birth. And again both Anakin and Luke have only learned of the Force from one PoV (if u don't count Palpatines influence on Anakin) while Jacen had traveled the galaxy to get as many views of the Force as possible. To compare it to something earth-like: Anakin and Luke can be compared to Judo experts, where Jacen has spent time mastering Judo, Kung fu, Karate, Jujitsu etc etc.

That's a possibility too, but that still doesn't answer the question of potential, and how LOTF makes it seem that jacen has more than Anakin and Luke.

Well it will be very hard to measure raw potential. Its pointless to have enormous amounts of potential if u haven't got the skills to use them. If Anakin or Luke had gotten the same treatment as Jacen they might have become much more stronger then what they now are/were.

I still don't see what's so impressive about Jacen with the force, what is his actual greatest feat?

Yeah, not sure how Jacen is all that spectacular...

In any case, I dislike the whole 'Different views of the Force!' thing. From the way the movie puts it, it's one way or the other, Light or Dark. There shouldn't be other factors, and you shouldn't be able to use the two concurrently...

Originally posted by Captain REX
Yeah, not sure how Jacen is all that spectacular...

In any case, I dislike the whole 'Different views of the Force!' thing. From the way the movie puts it, it's one way or the other, Light or Dark. There shouldn't be other factors, and you shouldn't be able to use the two concurrently...

Well that's the beauty of LOTF, although it kind of destroys Lucas' vision. LOTF adds an entire grey side to the force, although it's a grey side that leads to the darkside. It actually does make sense if you think about it, but that's assuming Lumiya isn't full of shit. Either way the book does give off the impression that Jacen is or will be more powerful than Anakin/Luke, which would contradict Lucas' vision of Anakin/Luke being the most powerful characters in the star wars universe.

The Grey Side is stupid...and Lumiya is, of course, full of shit.

Originally posted by Sexyback
I still don't see what's so impressive about Jacen with the force, what is his actual greatest feat?


Well, he did kill the Supreme Overlord while doing a bunch of other stuff. I'll have to check TUF to be exact.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Well, he did kill the Supreme Overlord while doing a bunch of other stuff. I'll have to check TUF to be exact.


Luke killed the supreme overlord, not Jacen.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Yeah, not sure how Jacen is all that spectacular...

In any case, I dislike the whole 'Different views of the Force!' thing. From the way the movie puts it, it's one way or the other, Light or Dark. There shouldn't be other factors, and you shouldn't be able to use the two concurrently...

There may not necessarily be an in between of the Light and Dark side but there are different ways on either side. You can be of the Dark side because you don't give a shit and you look out for number one, regardless of who else suffers. You can also be of the Dark side because you like to kill, steal, and be a general dick.

Then there's the Light side. The Jedi were of the Light side, they held reason and rationale above all else. Emotion and aggression were looked down upon. But then there's the Jensaarai, from I, Jedi. They were also followers of the Light but didn't see emotion and aggression as something that could lead one to the Dark side but rather something that could be used to one's advantage when used properly.

Anyway, back on topic. You have to take into account that both Luke's and Anakin's training were pretty unorthodox. Now I didn't read any of the NJO stuff yet but Anakin's ascension to Jedi Knight was during the Clone Wars. Not the best of situations to learn. And Luke pretty much got a crash course on Jedi from Yoda on Dagobah.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Luke killed the supreme overlord, not Jacen. No, Jacen killed me. I still got the scars to show them.

Originally posted by Marxman
There may not necessarily be an in between of the Light and Dark side but there are different ways on either side. You can be of the Dark side because you don't give a shit and you look out for number one, regardless of who else suffers. You can also be of the Dark side because you like to kill, steal, and be a general dick.

Then there's the Light side. The Jedi were of the Light side, they held reason and rationale above all else. Emotion and aggression were looked down upon. But then there's the Jensaarai, from I, Jedi. They were also followers of the Light but didn't see emotion and aggression as something that could lead one to the Dark side but rather something that could be used to one's advantage when used properly.

Anyway, back on topic. You have to take into account that both Luke's and Anakin's training were pretty unorthodox. Now I didn't read any of the NJO stuff yet but Anakin's ascension to Jedi Knight was during the Clone Wars. Not the best of situations to learn. And Luke pretty much got a crash course on Jedi from Yoda on Dagobah.

Ok I suppose his training was better due to his 5 year journey. However, that doesn't explain how LOTF indirectly places him on par with Luke.

Well, I haven't actually read the NJO books, but from what I've heard, hasn't Luke gone past his prime by LotF? Didn't he reach his peak by DN? I was always under the impression that by LotF, he was aging and growing weaker.

But of course, Jacen's earlier and superior training would factor in heavily. I mean he was trained from birth, he's just begun training in the darkside, he has learnt pretty much every force philosophy there is, Luke started pretty late, and he was mostly self trained to begin with.

And really, it's a mystery how the midi-chlorian count varies along force sensitive bloodlines, Jacen could possibly have as much or more potential than Luke.

But I really have to ask, how does LotF indirectly place him on par with Luke? I have yet to hear any feat that places him high up on the scales really, and definitely nothing that comes close to some of Luke's; controlling black wholes, concealing a entire planet from the force etc.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Well, I haven't actually read the NJO books, but from what I've heard, hasn't Luke gone past his prime by LotF? Didn't he reach his peak by DN? I was always under the impression that by LotF, he was aging and growing weaker.

But of course, Jacen's earlier and superior training would factor in heavily. I mean he was trained from birth, he's just begun training in the darkside, he has learnt pretty much every force philosophy there is, Luke started pretty late, and he was mostly self trained to begin with.

And really, it's a mystery how the midi-chlorian count varies along force sensitive bloodlines, Jacen could possibly have as much or more potential than Luke.

But I really have to ask, how does LotF indirectly place him on par with Luke? I have yet to hear any feat that places him high up on the scales really, and definitely nothing that comes close to some of Luke's; controlling black wholes, concealing a entire planet from the force etc.

The fact that he I guess sees a vision of himself killing Luke in a lightsaber fight. And no, I believe Luke reaches his peak by LOTF, not DN.

But we're talking in respect to his force potential, Jacen possibly beating Luke in a ligthsaber duel at any given time doesn't really say much for how he currently compares to Luke with the force.

I suppose but at the same time, if Luke's overall potential is greater(which it should be), there is no reason he should lose a lightsaber duel.

But should his potential with a lightsaber technically be better? How prodigious someone is with a lightsaber isn't genetic, correct? So technically, if Jacen did become better with a lightsaber, it wouldn't really be an inconsistency would it? It would just mean that Jacen was an overall better lightsaber duelist, which wouldn't be inconsistent in respect to his force potential.

Originally posted by Sexyback
But should his potential with a lightsaber technically be better? How prodigious someone is with a lightsaber isn't genetic, correct? So technically, if Jacen did become better with a lightsaber, it wouldn't really be an inconsistency would it? It would just mean that Jacen was an overall better lightsaber duelist, which wouldn't be inconsistent in respect to his force potential.

I suppose but I believe Luke became the greatest lightsaber duelist of all time by DN, so the inconsistency is that Jacen could become better than him at a young age, or better than him at all.

Originally posted by Marxman
They were also followers of the Light but didn't see emotion and aggression as something that could lead one to the Dark side but rather something that could be used to one's advantage when used properly.


No, that's beyond a different approach to the Light side and is just plain wrong. GL has made this VERY clear, that aggression and the use of emotion are parts of the Dark Side. This is absolute and cannot be contested; any source making out otherwise is incorrect.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that's beyond a different approach to the Light side and is just plain wrong. GL has made this VERY clear, that aggression and the use of emotion are parts of the Dark Side. This is absolute and cannot be contested; any source making out otherwise is incorrect.

So either LOTF directly contradicts Lucas(again), or Lumiya is just full of shit.

Jacen is like 31 in LOTF, not 25

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that's beyond a different approach to the Light side and is just plain wrong. GL has made this VERY clear, that aggression and the use of emotion are parts of the Dark Side. This is absolute and cannot be contested; any source making out otherwise is incorrect.

Where did GL make this clear, may I ask?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that's beyond a different approach to the Light side and is just plain wrong. GL has made this VERY clear, that aggression and the use of emotion are parts of the Dark Side. This is absolute and cannot be contested; any source making out otherwise is incorrect.

While I normally agree with you, Ush, some of the Jedi philosophy was hypocritical and rather corrupt - which was Sidious's cry the entire time. For example:

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes!"

That is an oxymoron, considering the statement itself is an absolute, and it is said by a Jedi.

Well if GL made it clear, then it goes, but if it was one of the dogmatic views of the jedi, it's not infallible.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Well if GL made it clear, then it goes, but if it was one of the dogmatic views of the jedi, it's not infallible.

Well, I haven't seen where Lucas "has made this clear", but I trust Ush. Perhaps, though, Lucas was referring to the Jedi insofar as the ones who haven't gone corrupt, decayed, or weak. The PT Jedi had become that, overall, in philosophy - hence their downfall.

"has made this clear" - is that really necessary?

Originally posted by Sexyback
Where did GL make this clear, may I ask?

In just about every interview he has made about it, not to mention how it is voiced with authority in the films as a means of imparting information to the audience.

And no, this was nothing to do with the downfall of the Jedi. The entire point of the Prequel trilogy is how if you act like that you will go to the Dark Side, and this would be true of absolutely any time at all.

As for "Only the Sith deal in absolutes", this is not a complex philosophical story. Obi-Wan says that as an immediate reaction to Anakin's "You are either with me or against me." It is that kind of absur statement that Obi-Wan is referring to.

Regardless, everything said about emotions, aggression and selfishness in the films is not merely the philosophy of the Jedi, but the way of the Light Side itself.

EU authorts just tend to have their heads up their asses and, furthermore, often don't seem to be bothered to actually pay attention to the source material. This is KOTOR's problem also.

Yeah .... JAcen's prob 31....also, I was wondering if the ages work right with ben being 13 I mean I thought Jaina and Jacen were around 20 when he was born....which would make the age work out wrong

I've said it once ,twince and countless of other times, but GL is a total SHIT HEAD - and i won't say sorry. I thank him for creating Star Wars - but he doesn't even KNOW his own work. you cant just split life up into two extremes (for that is all the Force is, life). Its not possible. So therefore, GL has contradicted himself there anyway.

Jacen's major feat was achieving the level of Force awareness known as The Unifying Force (embracing all aspects of the Force and relinquishing control of though and events) - which no other Jedi, especially Luke, has ever done as they are too wary of letting go and are too dogmatic. Luke got a crash course and came late to the Force, as did Anakin.

And Julie is correct in that by LotF Jacen is around 30 to 33, as he was roughly 20/21 at the end of TUF and LotF takes place about 40ABY while NJO ends approx 30ABY. Souces state that Ben will likely turn 14 in the next LotF book, which would make would mean Ben's age is incorrect as he was only two at the end of the NJO, nearly three - but not four. Then again, a year has probably already passed since Betrayal in the series, which would fix this problem...

Let's not forget that even Luke is not a master swordsman. i believe that title (in EU cannon circles) is held by Kyle Katarn, as he is reported to be the Academy's resident bladesmaster.

So in terms of Force potential, yes Luke is CANNONICALLY the most powerful, he is now getting old and Jacen has no limitations to his power (supposedly) whereas luke has - and also, Jacen is 30 years younger, and that means fitter. Personally, Jacen is probably the more powerful to me now - though even though some thought he was the more powerful at the end of the NJO, i think DN changed that for some with Luke's spectacular end fight.

And for good measure, once again. LUCAS IS A SHIT HEAD, AND IS FULL OF BULL! *kneels reverently before GL with a finger stuck up behind my back*

Someones been looking at Star Wars books as an RPG game again, instead of a piece of literature.

Luke knows whats up. read all the novels and you'll understand that if luke or leia were to runn the galaxy it would be better off.

I think that Jacens biggest force feat was traveling back in time...

JAcen is trying to unify the galaxy in the wrong way. it's like in V for vendetta england is united but the people hate it. it's just like an empire only with a differnt way of doing this with a different name.

and starwarsfreak 34 luke is the best swordsman it says so during his fight with lomi plo at the end of the swarm war in DN the novel says that he is just as good as anyone else in the order with his left hand. but i'll find you the exact quote later today. also you can be the academies blademaster and not be the best. Cin Drallig was the jedi temple blade master but there jedi who were better than he was.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Someones been looking at Star Wars books as an RPG game again, instead of a piece of literature.

FYI, i HATE RPG games - they screw it up big time. i look at the SW books like i would look at life, and judge how i would judge life.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hi guys, I just finished reading Betrayal and I have a shitload of questions that deal with inconsistencies of the star wars universe. I've discussed some of this with lightsnake but I'd like to get some of your opinions.

First question is the most important. At age 25, Jacen Solo is a complete master of the force, while at age 22-23, Anakin wasn't even close, and neither was Luke. So are they trying to tell us that Jacen's potential is bigger than the chosen one and his son? Or that Jacen's teachings were of better quality compared to Anakin and certainly Luke? It really makes no sense to me here.

Another question is, why are they making it seem that Jacen at 25 is as powerful as Luke is at 60? Are they implying he's going to become more powerful than Luke? Certainly his quality of teachings at 25 is superior to Luke's at 25, but apparently Luke's potential is equal to that of his father, and canonically, they have the highest potential in the history of SW. I don't mind Jacen being all this powerful but they're treading on thin ice here in terms of contradicting the concept of star wars.


I think you must remember that Luke wasn't a young man when he started training. The teachings are similar in some wasy, but not in others. I don't think that they are contradicting themselves at all. Remember George Lucas could've had a hand in creating the LOTF concepts.

Okay, Starwarsfreak? No.

I'm now going to slowly rip your post apart...

Originally posted by starwarsfreak34 I've said it once ,twince and countless of other times, but GL is a total SHIT HEAD - and i won't say sorry. I thank him for creating Star Wars - but he doesn't even KNOW his own work. you cant just split life up into two extremes (for that is all the Force is, life). Its not possible. So therefore, GL has contradicted himself there anyway.

Um, no. You're wrong. Star Wars is not based in real life- hell, you can't hear explosions in space! The Force is not life. It is designed to have two extremes, the Light Side and the Dark Side. There's no dabbling in between.



Your point? That's where the EU authors ignore the source material and just go blindly galloping along, ruinining continuity and Lucas' view of the Force, which is the only viable view. The rest of the EU views? Fodder. Meanwhile, Jacen's going to the Dark Side, isn't he? Oh yeah. He is. What did Anakin want do to? Embrace all aspects of the Force, Dark and Light. Where did he go? The Dark Side...



Hey, look, EU continuity problems! I'm amazed, I really am.

That, or you've missed your dates. Ben was born 26 ABY, and LOTF is set in 40 ABY, 41 ABY. He'd be turning 14.

Jacen was born 9 ABY, and is 31 by the time LOTF rolls around.



Does that mean that the Grandmaster title is just for kicks, then? Kyle was the Battlemaster, a very combat-minded Jedi. Luke had everything down...



Jacen has limitations, like anyone else. And age means absolutely nothing, it seems! Obi-Wan Kenobi was half the age of Count Dooku, and yet Count Dooku, at the ripe old age of 80, soundly defeated him several times...

Jacen is powerful, but Luke is still the top dog, here.



And for good measure, you're immature. doped

Originally posted by Captain REX
Okay, Starwarsfreak? No.

I'm now going to slowly rip your post apart...

I'll probably regret this later, but I'll attempt to do the same to yours.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Um, no. You're wrong. Star Wars is not based in real life- hell, you can't hear explosions in space! The Force is not life. It is designed to have two extremes, the Light Side and the Dark Side. There's no dabbling in between.

Being able to hear things was actually explained once. Something about the shockwaves traveling through invisible material left behind by the ion engines. The Force may have to main sides, but there really is more than just a Light Side and Dark Side. As Escape pointed out "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." The Vong are evidence to the fact that there is more than just the Light and Dark because they are a whole new aspect of the Force. Furthermore, there's differences within the Light and Dark. There's the Living and Unifying Force also, for example.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Your point? That's where the EU authors ignore the source material and just go blindly galloping along, ruinining continuity and Lucas' view of the Force, which is the only viable view. The rest of the EU views? Fodder. Meanwhile, Jacen's going to the Dark Side, isn't he? Oh yeah. He is. What did Anakin want do to? Embrace all aspects of the Force, Dark and Light. Where did he go? The Dark Side...

With all due respect, how do you know GL's view? What the EU authors do is monitored by LFL. I don't think SW has stayed as far from what GL wants as most people think. And the Dark Side is where Jacen is going aswell. What a coincidence. Could this be the all to common thing in SW that it repeats itself in different forms?

Originally posted by Captain REX
Hey, look, EU continuity problems! I'm amazed, I really am.

That, or you've missed your dates. Ben was born 26 ABY, and LOTF is set in 40 ABY, 41 ABY. He'd be turning 14.

Jacen was born 9 ABY, and is 31 by the time LOTF rolls around.

Correct.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Does that mean that the Grandmaster title is just for kicks, then? Kyle was the Battlemaster, a very combat-minded Jedi. Luke had everything down...

I'm going to back you up here. Luke is the best in the Order with a saber. Period. Kyle being the best because he is the battlemaster is the same is saying that Cin is the best PT Jedi. He's no where near the best though. Yoda, Mace, Obi-wan, Anakin, Depa, ect. could take him.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Jacen has limitations, like anyone else. And age means absolutely nothing, it seems! Obi-Wan Kenobi was half the age of Count Dooku, and yet Count Dooku, at the ripe old age of 80, soundly defeated him several times...

Jacen is powerful, but Luke is still the top dog, here.

This is true for the most part. However, age is important but in a way opposite to what it is for us. People in SW get stronger as they age unless they undergo some unnatural event (like Anakin's Mustafar experince).

Originally posted by Captain REX
And for good measure, you're immature. doped

Was this really necessary, Rex?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'll probably regret this later, but I'll attempt to do the same to yours.

Well, hey...

*bans*



Explanation or not, my point was that in Star Wars, you can hear space combat and light can block itself (lightsabers) and so on, which is more or less impossible in our world.

George Lucas must be a Sith Lord then, as well. Ush addressed that, it wasn't a philosophical view that the Jedi hold, just Obi-Wan's witty response to Anakin's 'You're with me or against me.'

But the Living and Unifying Forces...yes, those exist. But they're subsections of the Light and Dark Sides of the Force, not sides of their own.

The Vong not being part of the Force doesn't really prove there's more aspects to it than Light and Dark. It just means they're not in either, right? Does not apply to non-Vong, though...



How do I know? Go watch the movies and the interviews.

LFL monitors, yes, but we're not talking about them, we're talking about us, what certain fans think of what the EU has done with the Force. I can tell that LFL really does not give a damn, since they're making money...

And that was not my point with the Jacen-Anakin parallel. My point was that Starwarsfreak was saying that Jacen was opening himself to 'all aspects' and referring to them as more than Light and Dark. Well, not so. All aspects is just Light and Dark, and you use one or the other. Opening yourself to the Dark Side means you're going to fall, as Anakin did, as Jacen is doing.



Yay!



Yay again!



Indeedy.



Yes. Starwarsfreak's opinion was horribly wrong, I felt the need to correct him.

LFL's monitoring of the EU really accounts to nothing more than looking over the broad storyline and saying "that's fine" or "that bit can't be done". Like how in NJO they originally wanted to make Anakin the main character and kill off Jacen; Lucas said that couldn't be done, so they changed it, but that's about all their monitoring accounts to. They stay pretty much entirely hands off except for big things, because Lucas's stance on EU is that it's something that could have happened in the SW universe - hence all the EU inconsistencies. What happens in EU is not the end-all-be-all of what happens in the SW universe, it is simply possibilities of things that could have occured.

i'm not going to bother - all i'll say is this. if the EU is so horribly wrong and nothing to do with the films what-so-ever then WTF does Lucas insist on buttin his nose where's it's not wanted. he has a hand in the EU stories, and on more than one occassion has said 'well, i don't like that, change this, don't do that, i don't want this.... etc' and not ONCE have i heard him say no to the Potentium.

and for hte Jacen-Anakin thing - Anakin didn't want to embrace both light and dark, he selfishly wanted to save his wife. that's it. and this is where GL's view does work, as passion leads to the dark side etc....

P.S- i'm a lot more mature than you think i am, Captain REX. i was just usin that to express how much i dislike GL and that he pissed me off no end. if you want immature - go see all the threads idiots have started in the SW forum having a go at ALL of us.

oh, sorry... also, i didn't say it was based in real life at all. just that these people are human, and experience human emotions. it stands to reason that they're plagued with the kind of deep-thinkin philosophical questions of 'Being' as we are. in that sense, there IS a middle ground. life is not as clear cut as light and dark, period.

Love the Expanded Universe. Love The Legacy of the Force novels and comic book.

This disagreement can always be settled with one side burning the other on stakes....

Hmm, but wasn`t one of PT`s points that Jedi Order were not perfect? There was the matter of Qui-Gon having diffrent aproach than Council, and Yoda mentioning the arrogance of Jedi. So Force Users can disagree and even Light Side may have diffrent aproaches. But I agree that emotions make the big diffrence between Dark and Light.

By the way, my stance is pretty in the middle. I don`t like some EU, but many people put great effort into it, and as a whole it doesn`t deserve contempt. EU fans unfortunately don`t have a poster of Ush`s quality on their side, so it is not a challenge to argue against them.