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This is PoD Darth Bane, TSW Exar Kun, and it's a lightsaber battle. Takes place in the execution arena at Geonosis as seen in AotC, they both start at opposite ends, and they are both wearing battle armour.

Kun was a prodigy, and got even better with his double blade. Bane at his best couldn't defeat Kas'im, even though he knew all of his moves. Kun should take this with little difficulty.

1. Where was Kun stated to be a prodigy? It's just I know you don't consider Bane one because he was never stated to be one, but when was Exar Kun? And if you logically deduced it, Bane actually displayed more potential with a saber than Kun did, given his shorter amount of training, and how quickly he was able to progress, and how good he actually got.

2. How did Exar Kun get better with his saberstaff? Logic points to him being better with a saber and form that he had been training with for years.

3. I assume you're referring to the 1st part of their duel, where Kas'im wields the saberstaff, because Bane knew all of his moves with a saberstaff, but not all of his moves with his dual sabers, he was completely in the dark concerning that. Anyways, he was winning, he could have beaten him, but chose to savor his victory. Even Kas'im knew this, he even states 'you should have killed me when you had the chance' to Bane, indicating that he did believe himself beaten, and that Bane could have defeated him if he went full out.


Anyways, I definitely disagree. Bane was basically better than Kas'im in terms of swordsmanship, not in the sense that he would be able to match him in sabers, because Kas'im would be able to pwn him with his dual sabers, which Bane was extremely unfamiliar with, but in the sense that he would be as good against another opponent (such as Kun) as Kas'im would be, given the fact that he was superior to Kas'im when Kas'im was utilising his preferred weapon. What people have to realise is that Kas'im with his dual sabers pwning Bane in no way speaks for his superiority, it only speaks for the fact that Bane was unfamiliar with the duel sabers. Bane is a better saber duelist than Kas'im by the end of PoD, this is clear as he is shown to be superior when up against Kas'im with his favoured weapon. You simply can't compare their skill by using the second part of the duel, as Bane was at a disadvantage, a disadvantage he wouldn't ever be at except against Kas'im.

Kun wins.

This is just a lightsaber match, but good points.

I will not believe that whole moon bullshit by that joke of a writer KJA until its actually shown, till then its speculation and doesn't belong in a debate.

Oh, has this been confirmed, or are you making an assumption as to what his powers would be?

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, has this been confirmed, or are you making an assumption as to what his powers would be?

Not at all. I am drawing a conclusion from a valid premise, in turn a perfectly valid proof.

If he was able to topple buildings and to a degree, pull a moon out of orbit, then it implies that his potency in the force is stronger than Dooku's. As a result, his lightning will also be correspondingly stronger.

Originally posted by zephiel7

If he was able to topple buildings and to a degree, pull a moon out of orbit, then it implies that his potency in the force is stronger than Dooku's. As a result, his lightning will also be correspondingly stronger. And where was it actually shown that he pulled a moon out of orbit?

And i thought it was only the entrence of the temple which crushed kasim, not the whole building according to wookie
Thousands of years later, Darth Bane would arrive at the Temple to seek its secrets. In the lowest sublevel, he finally found Darth Revan's Holocron. Bane studied from it extensively until it lost power and died. Inside the Temple, he was confronted by the Sith Lord Kas'im. Bane and Kas'im engaged in a protracted duel that eventually moved to the steps of the Temple. Bane was then able to kill Kas'im by striking him with a powerful wave of Force energy that brought down the Temple entranceway around him. Bane then departed, and the further history of the Temple is unknown.

I havnt read the book yet but i will do so when the paper back comes out

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, has this been confirmed, or are you making an assumption as to what his powers would be?

Given that after just 1 hour of learning how to summon force lightning, he was able to generate a miniature storm of lightning, I'd say by the end of PoD, where he is far stronger in the dark side than he was when he performed said feat (probably 20x more powerful or so), his lightning would be far beyond the level of Dooku's, the same lightning that couldn't even overpower Obi-Wan.

In fact, here's the quote, and this is just 1 hour after learning how to summon lightning, and it's at an early point in PoD:

'The smell of burning ozone wafted through the archives, filling Githany's nostrils as she watched Bane practising his latest exercise. The room crackled and hissed as he channelled the energy of the force and flung it about the room in great arching bolts of blue-violet lightning.
Githany stood with Bane at the center of the maelstrom. A fierce wind swirled around them, tearing at her hair and the folds of her robe. It rocked and shook the bookshelves, knocking manuscripts to the floor and rifling their pages. The air itself was charged with electricity, causing her skin to itch.
In the midst of it all, Bane laughed, the raised his arms in triumph and launched another blast to ricochet off the far wall. Each time the lightning flared, the intensity of the flash burned Githany's retinas, causing her to shield her eyes. She noticed that Bane didn't look away; his eyes were wide and wild with the rush of power.
The thunder was almost deafening, and the storm was still building. If Bane wasn't careful, the echoes would reach the levels above the archives, revealing their secret training ground to the rest of the academy.' - PoD, PG 152.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I will not believe that whole moon bullshit by that joke of a writer KJA until its actually shown, till then its speculation and doesn't belong in a debate.

It's confirmed in the NEGtC that he did fly from Dxun to Onderon, and the only way he could have possibly done that is by pulling the moon out of orbit.

No, its not. He could have found a ship, he could been rescued, he could have teleported, he could have flew like superman into space, he could have made a bring with semen sticking the two planets together. Do you get what Im moving towards? We don't know what happened so my semen guess is as good as moving moons.

Originally posted by Sexyback
It's confirmed in the NEGtC that he did fly from Dxun to Onderon, and the only way he could have possibly done that is by pulling the moon out of orbit.

LMAO!!! To bad for you if that's your argument. It was stated that even as early as KOTOR times that Dxun and Onderon SHARED an atmosphere. You wouldn't have to move Dxun at all to get to Onderon.

If its just a lightsaber battle then Bane takes this. Exar Kun uses and lightsaber staff and in PoD Bane specifically trained against the lightsaber staff to beat that one guy that whooped on him. He even took it to the Sith lightsaber instructor while the instructor was using the lightsaber staff.

Rar I just worked out how old Darth Bane is by the end of PoD. He's real young, only 26.

And he started training at what age?

23 or 24 I guess. Why?

Really, according to what I read from the TOTJ comics, it said that at times the moon would sare an atmosphere with Onderon during its orbit. At other times, the atmosphere's remained seperate.

So there is a very distinct possibility that Bane pulled the moon out of orbit. And it also seems that Karapshyn implied as much in the end of the Darth Bane novel. Mind you, I do not have the novel at hand, I am just going from memory.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Really, according to what I read from the TOTJ comics, it said that at times the moon would sare an atmosphere with Onderon during its orbit. At other times, the atmosphere's remained seperate.

So there is a very distinct possibility that Bane pulled the moon out of orbit. And it also seems that Karapshyn implied as much in the end of the Darth Bane novel. Mind you, I do not have the novel at hand, I am just going from memory.

"A very distinct possibility" does not equal to cold hard fact, Zephiel. If AC and Glentract are right, and there is nothing that says that he yanked the moon out of orbit, then it isn't going to be included on a list of feats until it has been substantiated.

Zephiel7, I don't recall the issue appearing in PoD, but BotS.

@Glentract, their atmospheres were no longer as close as they were thousands of years ago, and Bane was confirmed to have flown via a beast across the atmospheres, and the only explanation is that he pulled the moon out of orbit, otherwise it wouldn't have been possible. Anyways, here's the exact quote, draw whatever you want from it:

'Now that he understood the depths of Sith powers, he thought he might even have control over worlds and moons, able to play with orbits and gravity like a child might play with colored balls.

Long ago, Dxun had grazed the planet Onderon, close enough that it was possible for creatures to pass across the conjoined atmosphere. Perhaps Bane could nudge the beast moon close enough so that he could travel to the nearby planet that filled the sky. In bloodshed and chaos, Darth Bane would go to Onderon ... and there he would find his apprentice. '

The fact that he believed himself powerful enough to do so alone kinda speaks volumes, Bane was never arrogant of his powers, to believe that he would have that kind of power is pretty incredible.

@AC, most of those alternatives you gave aren't actually valid, he can't have just found a ship or teleported because he was actually confirmed to have flown on top of a beast across the atmospheres, and the only way that would have been possible is if the atmospheres of Dxun and Onderon were brought close enough together.

Originally posted by Gideon
"A very distinct possibility" does not equal to cold hard fact, Zephiel. If AC and Glentract are right, and there is nothing that says that he yanked the moon out of orbit, then it isn't going to be included on a list of feats until it has been substantiated.

There's enough evidence to suggest that he pulled the moon out of orbit.

Originally posted by Gideon
"A very distinct possibility" does not equal to cold hard fact, Zephiel. If AC and Glentract are right, and there is nothing that says that he yanked the moon out of orbit, then it isn't going to be included on a list of feats until it has been substantiated.

But if Karapshyn implied that Bane would do it, but he just decided to stop the book there, then it is enough to substitute as hard fact. I am just inferring it.

Inferences are logical and reasonable conclusion of a fact not presented by direct evidence but which, by process of logic and reason, a trier of fact may conclude exists from the established facts.

Originally posted by Sexyback
There's enough evidence to suggest that he pulled the moon out of orbit.

Evidence stemming from his own thoughts, apparently, from the excerpt you provided. Suggestions and implications are fine, but they do not fill the void of fact, Planet. They do not provide the same support, and must be handled with a measure of skepticism. You were not keen on allowing "suggestions or implications" when it the subject was Sidious's power. Why should it be the case for Bane?

Originally posted by Gideon
Evidence stemming from his own thoughts, apparently, from the excerpt you provided.

But it's later confirmed in tNEGtC that Bane did actually fly across the atmospheres via a beast to find Zannah, and the only possible way for him to have done that was by pulling the atmospheres close enough together with the force.



'Cause Bane is badass and I'm a fanboy.

No, Zephiel, it is not. But, we'll take a look at it. Provide the excerpt that the author "implied" that Bane would do it, and we'll judge from there. Likewise, implications are never equal to fact. Never. Not unless they are supported.

Sidious believed that he would discover Plagueis's lost secret. Are we to automatically infer that he did, simply because himself and Luceno implied that he would?



Inferences and logical deduction are to be made in the absence of fact. They help an argument, and they offer support, but they do not constitute as cold hard fact. They do not have the same effect and are not to be treated as such. Logical deduction can be refuted and disproved. Facts can't.

I need your sour creme on my chest, sexy back.

Originally posted by zephiel7
But if Karapshyn implied that Bane would do it, but he just decided to stop the book there, then it is enough to substitute as hard fact. I am just inferring it.

Inferences are logical and reasonable conclusion of a fact not presented by direct evidence but which, by process of logic and reason, a trier of fact may conclude exists from the established facts.

Zephiel7, I don't recall the issue appearing in PoD, but BotS.
Are you sure you're not confusing Karapshyn with KJA?
Also, you sound like a PoD fan, so just so you know, you can actually ask DK questions at the starwars.com messageboards here - http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=256530&tstart=25 .

Did it say as much? Or could the atmospheres have merged from orbit, on their own accord?



Lol.

I'll remember that the next time you call "me" a fanboy. Seriously, though, you can't pick and choose, Planet. Either implications and suggestions are feasible and to be used in an argument, or they aren't. This is in all arguments. If it applies to Bane, it applies to Sidious. Period.

Not possible, the moon and planet had been slowly pulling away from eachother for thousands of years, only an outside force would be able to push them closer together.



Well if there really was something just like this that applied to Sidious, I'm guessing I probably would accept it. It's basically too likely to have happened to just ignore it. Also, I'd like to point out that Bane was 27 tops by BotS, with less than three years experience of actively using the darkside. Pretty impressive.

Unfortunately, I have lent the book to one of my good friends, an avid Star Wars/Spiderman fan. I willl at some point get it and then I will provide. I was going by memory, but I am hardly infallible .




Inferences can be enough. Scientific theories are a combination of inductive reasoning and inferences. Newton's three laws of forces. Can we be sure that it is 100% true? No, science is inductive, hundred percent certainty is not guaranteed. Do we consider them as fact in the fields of engineering? Hells yes.




Two different beasts. Bane decided to pull the moon. The most likely solution, and perhaps the only one, to the problem at hand is that Bane did nudge the moon. KJA, seems to suggest that Bane did.

KJA did not suggest that Sidious actually discovered the secret. There has been evidence actually, showing that Sidious indeed did not discover due to an untimely death via father-son pwnage.



You may be right. I do not have the book on me as of now, so I might be jumbling stuff inside my head.



Awesome man. Thanks for the link. I do like PoD and I am somewhat curious on Bane. Such a great SL, not enough exposure .

I don't know what the argument is about. Bane's own thoughts are nowhere near conclusive enough to be facts, as Escape stated. And there's very little proof that Bane did what you said he did, Planet.

Yea, he only planned to move the moon, did we see him do it? no, he could have raided the mandalorian camp and carjacked a space craft and flew to onderon

It's too likely to have happened to just be ignored.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Yea, he only planned to move the moon, did we see him do it? no, he could have raided the mandalorian camp and carjacked a space craft and flew to onderon

It was confirmed that Bane flew on top of a beast across the atmospheres, and that wouldn't be possible unless the atmospheres were brought closer together, and seeing as Bane did plan it...

Again, you are basing your assumption on what Bane planned. There's no logical deduction, nor cold hard facts here.

Provide an alternative. What else could he have done? There's no real other way around it.

You must have forgotten the rules of debate. There is no 'provide the alternative'. You are telling us, without any proof I might add, that Bane performed feat X. You want to throw in a logical deduction, and that's as far as you can get. However it's not a logical deduction, but pure speculation on your part. I'm not required to throw in an alternative, because there could be millions, and the burden of proof isn't on me, so try again.

That's right Sexy, I've forgotten all the rules.

How about this, throw in one alternative, and I'll drop it.

No, he doesn't have too what do you not get about "its on YOU."

That would work, AC and Sexy, if there was room for there being any other alternative. There simply isn't. Gee, it looks like you guys need to learn how to apply these 'rules of debate' into context.

I could, I just don't have to its on you to prove to me, not the other way around. Besides the bridge of semen is perfectly logical.

Planet, you really don't know how to debate do you? This isn't star wars according to captain planet, where all the rules of logic, evidence, and deductive reasoning, are thrown out. Sorry.

*Thinks back to the thread where IKC humiliates Darth Sexy and points out how Darth Sexy doesn't understand what a Strawman argument is*

And AC, I did prove it.

My argument: Bane pulled the moon out of orbit.

Premise 1: Bane planned to do so, and fly on top of a beast from Dxun to Onderon.

Premise 2: It's later confirmed in tNEGtC that Bane did fly on top of a beast in between their atmospheres.

Premise 3: The two atmospheres had slowly been moving away from each other for thousands of years, by this point they were too far apart for Bane, so the only way Bane could have pulled the atmospheres close enough together that makes sense (so that he could fly across) is by doing what he planned.

Now you guys seem to think that you're debating champions, and if you really were, you'd know that you'd have to prove one of these premises wrong, which is exactly what I've been asking you to do. So like I said, it seems like parroting what others who are far smarter and far more capable than you are is your limit, you simply fail to apply these 'rules' into context.

Before I respond NEGtC quote please.

BTW, I just got word from an official at SW.com, and Bane is only 26 by BotS. And this is after less than 3 years of training. And only just as he's delving into true sith teachings. Can I say, WOW?