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This is Darth Vader in his prime, Darth Bane by the end of PoD, and it's a lightsaber battle. Takes place in the Execution Arena at Geonosis as seen in AotC. Now I know that even PoD Bane would completely destroy him in a lightsaber battle, but I also know that there are others who'd believe that Vader would win, so this should be interesting.

I dunno, dueling is Vader's strong point. If Vader doesn't meake a mistake he could possibly win but I'd still probably go with Bane, but it would by no emans be easy.

I think bane takes this one.

Bane has more raw abilities since Vader is in a suit, yet Vader still has the advantage with the saber and mastery of the force. I'd say he wins but after a difficult fight.

You do realise that Darth Bane was at least on par with Kas'im in dueling, if not better.

And dueling is Vader's weak point, it's been proven that even characters like TPM Obi-Wan are better duelists than Vader, he's simply just too slow.

And I really don't see how Vader would contend with this kind of speed:

'He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bolted up inside of him in a tremendous rush of power. He channelled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin.'
For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see. - PoD, PG 170.

Where has it been proven that TPM Obi-Wan is a better duelist than Vader?

George Lucas makes it clear in the 'Prime of the Jedi' video.

Originally posted by Sexyback
George Lucas makes it clear in the 'Prime of the Jedi' video.

He says that Obi-Wan is a better duelist than Vader?

In those words? No. However he makes it clear, by saying that 'we've never really seen real jedi at work' in regards to the OT in respect to dueling, he states that he wanted the TPM fight scenes to be faster and more ferocious, and he labels Vader as a 'crippled half man half droid'.

Originally posted by Sexyback
In those words? No. However he makes it clear, by saying that 'we've never really seen real jedi at work' in regards to the OT in respect to dueling, he states that he wanted the TPM fight scenes to be faster and more ferocious, and he labels Vader as a 'crippled half man half droid'.

That spells out that TPM Obi-Wan > Vader? Sorry, I'm not seeing it. Is Obi-Wan the "faster" duelist? Of course. That's pretty much the message that I'm getting from it. Lucas could also have been referring to "real Jedi" as in Jedi who dueled on a regular basis, like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan in ANH hadn't dueled in forever, last time I checked. Luke was untrained. Sidious didn't duel. Yoda didn't duel. Vader was a Sith.

Even if this is the case, Vader is more powerful than Obi-Wan. In the Force, it's not even a remote contest. Vader is 80% of RotJ Sidious. Obi-Wan doesn't come close to being a fourth of that figure.

This issue is more on topic in the other thread, so just carry it on in there.

Vader and Bane are both pretty strong in terms of the Force. I do not know how powerful Bane is in terms of lightsaber combat, but Vader is sweet with his one-handed Djem So/Force Attack style. Bane is lesser than Sidious, and so is Darth Vader. Hmmm, I would go for Bane, though Vader's strong. Here's how I rank the Sith:

0. Darth Nihilus
1.) Darth Sidious
2.) Exar Kun
3.) Marka Ragnos
4.) Darth Revan
5.) Darth Bane
6.) Naga Sadow
7.) Ulic Qel-Droma
8.) Jacen Solo (well as a Jedi he's higher, but as a Sith, I give him this rank)
9.) Darth Vader
10.) Darth Tyrannus

Bane is slightly above Kas'im in lightsaber combat, that automatically makes him arguably the strongest lightsaber duelist ever after just three years of training. Can I say, uber?

'ever"?

kas'im isn't even the best duelist ever. hell, hes not even better then the top tiers in the PT, such as Yoda, Mace, and even Dooku.

However, bane is pretty damn good in the force, so I'm forced to say that he kills vader in a tough fight.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Bane is slightly above Kas'im in lightsaber combat, that automatically makes him arguably the strongest lightsaber duelist ever after just three years of training. Can I say, uber?

What the f*ck are you talking about? You are so damn annoying I'm starting to feel its my obligation to own you in every topic you attempt to suck Bane's dick, and use this one duel where he got shitted one and try to pass it off as some big victory.

Bane is NOT above Kas'im in lightsaber combat, the ONLY reason he wasn't ass raped right on the spot was because he MEMORIZED, Kasim's movements, it was mechanically, he simply saw a set of forms and knew how to counter them. When Kas'im busts out his Jar Kari, that Bane had never seen, he panics. and in turn his only thought his running away trying not to get his head cut off. That is NOT a definition of skill. Hell Kas'im even told him NOT to rely on set's of forms and memorizing.

And even still Kas'im is not the be all end all of dueling, the quote said PERHAPS ever and almost all of the comments about him in the novel are in hyperbole, and we have the fact that you the NSO sucked floppy donkey dick as a collective era.

This ALONE will beat Bane.

"His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable ." - RODV.

If Bane can't memorize and recognize it as a set form then he gets owned. Which he will.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Bane is NOT above Kas'im in lightsaber combat, the ONLY reason he wasn't ass raped right on the spot was because he MEMORIZED, Kasim's movements, it was mechanically, he simply saw a set of forms and knew how to counter them. When Kas'im busts out his Jar Kari, that Bane had never seen, he panics. and in turn his only thought his running away trying not to get his head cut off. That is NOT a definition of skill. Hell Kas'im even told him NOT to rely on set's of forms and memorizing.


Just to be fair, while Bane was familiar with Kas'im's dueling technique, so was Kas'im with Bane.

Kas'im taught Bane, so it's logical he would be just as familiar (if not more so) with Bane's technique. The familiarity was on both sides, and as a result it is not something to downplay Bane by. The reason why Kas'im said that Bane had a chance to "finish him" is because of pure skills.

It would be like saying in the Anakin versus Obi Wan fight, Obi Wan only won by knowing Anakin's moves. Is this true? Of course not. Anakin knew Obi-Wan's moves just as well. Kenobi won that battle by his Soresu skills and level headedness, whereas Anakin suffered from a key character flaw, recklesness.


Kas'im was winning by his knowledge of all of Bane's attacks, whereas Bane knew nothing about this new style that Kas'im was using.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Just to be fair, while Bane was familiar with Kas'im's dueling technique, so was Kas'im with Bane.

Kas'im taught Bane, so it's logical he would be just as familiar (if not more so) with Bane's technique. The familiarity was on both sides, and as a result it is not something to downplay Bane by. The reason why Kas'im said that Bane had a chance to "finish him" is because of pure skills.

It would be like saying in the Anakin versus Obi Wan fight, Obi Wan only won by knowing Anakin's moves. Is this true? Of course not. Anakin knew Obi-Wan's moves just as well. Kenobi won that battle by his Soresu skills and level headedness, whereas Anakin suffered from a key character flaw, recklesness.

Oh it down plays them both, is it Bane's skill with a blade he had just gotten a few weeks ago or is Kas'im's suckage that he couldn't beat a student who had just gotten his saber a few weeks ago.

The difference with Anakin and Obi Wan and Bane and Kas'im, is Anakin was stronger then Obi Wan in every physical way and in the force too where ass Kas'im is better then Bane in everyway and Bane only won because Kas'im decided to give a speech UNDER the temple, had he take 6 steps forward and given his speech Bane would have been dead.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Oh it down plays them both, is it Bane's skill with a blade he had just gotten a few weeks ago or is Kas'im's suckage that he couldn't beat a student who had just gotten his saber a few weeks ago.

Really? I see the fact that Bane was able to keep up against someone who has "mastered all seven forms of the lighstaber," and who "honed his skill for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever." as only a sign of Bane's prodigy.

I would believe this was Karapshyn's intent (most likely) with Bane: Put the legendary Sith'ari in a fight against arguably the most powerful duelist ever, just to highlight how prodigous he really is. In a few months his skill in the saber evolved that he was able to keep up with one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in all the galaxy.

This quote is not unsupported. It clearly indicates that Kas'im mastered all the forms, and spent decades afterwards perfecting it even further. This would indicate that he very well could be the strongest pure duelist ever.




I agree with you. When Kas'im introduced his Jar Kai style, he was defeating Bane. I consider that round two.

However before that:

'The Blademaster became desperate. Leaping, spinning, ducking, rolling: he was wild and reckless in his retreat, seeking now only to escape with his life. But he didn't know the temple like Bane did. bane kept the routes to the outside cut off, slowly herding his opponent into a dead-end hallway.

Recognising what was happening, Kas'im blew open the heavy door of a side room with the force and dived inside. Bane knew there was no other exit, and he paused at the threshold of the room to savor his victory.

The Twi'lek stood in the center of the empty chamber, panting heavily, stooped ever so slightly, his head bowed. He looked up when Bane stepped through the doorway. But when his gaze met Bane's, there was no hint of defeat in his eyes.

"You should have finished me when you had the chance," he said.

In "round one" as you can see, Bane was clearly overpowering Kas'im. He wasted time, "savouring his victory" and missed the oppurtunity to kill Kas'im. The battle clearly puts Bane almost equal to if not greater than Kas'im.

Now assuming this is Bane by the end of PoD, he has faced someone who has trained in "every facet of lightsaber dueling", and who has "honed that skill for decades." He has had a first hand experience as to almost all the lightsaber forms and techniques (with the exception of Vaapad of course.) He will more likely than not be prepared for anything Skywalker has to throw at him.

As I said, almost all his "teh uber" quotes are hyperbole.

And how about the fact that in "round 1" Kas'im uses the same sets, he used against Bane in his practice duels

"They had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now. Over the course of his training Bane had seen every possible sequence, series, move and trick with the double-bladed saber, and he knew how to counter and nullify them all. pg 243

As I said Bane had seen it all and when Kas'im showed him something new he panicked and was owned. And Vader doesn't fight in predictable sets.

I rest my case.

Amen.

Vader. Read RODV and Crimson Empire.

Does bane use a double bladed saber or something? Sry i still havnt read the book, waiting for the paperback version because im cheapskate

Erm? I don't understand how you state its hyperbole when the author himself supports the quote. Karapyshyn doesn't just say "ZOMG teh Kas'im is teh bestest duellist eva!!111."

He explains how Kas'im spent painful decades (implying several) mastering every lightsaber form and perfecting every nuance of each form until he became the perfect weapon. I can understand how he forms the basis that Kas'im can be considered arguably "the best duelist."

If Karapshyn was a dick and said "Kas'im was the best duelist ever" then I would agree with you. Hyperbole and utter bs. However, he supports the quote, stating why Kas'im can be considered the best duelist. Moreover, he is clear that it is referring to Kas'im's saber skills, and not some other strange metaphor of what power could be (ie in the sense of conviction, politics, intelligence)


The fact that Bane was able to contend against such a warrior speaks plainly of his prodigy and sheer saber skills.



AC, I can see that you are a reasonably bright guy, but really? You make it seem as if Bane had an advantage due to sparring with Kas'im. Kas'im also knew Bane's attacks inside out. He was after all Bane's teacher. The battle was not at all set in Bane's favour in the beginning. They both knew enough about each others techniques to make the fight even.



Keep in mind that this was the first time Bane ever observed dual wielding, moreover, the first person he experienced this alien technique of duelling from was none other than Kas'im. Kas'im on the otherhand, at this point knew all of Bane's moves.

At the end of PoD, Bane is basically well versed in all facets of lightsaber combat, seeing as how he fought someone who trained in every single form, and spent decades perfecting these skills.



Nobody said he does, but again, it was never stated that Bane was overly predictable either. Kas'im knew Bane's moves inside out only because he trained Bane. Bane was completely unaware of Kas'im's dual wielding style, a style until that moment he had never seen or heard of. In the second round, Ka'sim definately had an advantage. He trained Bane, he knew his moves.

Vader did not train Bane (duh ), nor does he know Bane's moves. I believe Bane stands a good chance of taking this. Unpredicatability is on both their sides.



Bane uses a single bladed lightsaber that has a hilt designed for Shien/Djem So users (the type of form he specializes in and possesses natural advantages with, especially given his enormous size, muscle mass, and physical strength.) The description of the blade was pretty sweet, I think. I would recommend the book Kadesh, even if you have to pay an extra couple of bucks. IMO best Star Wars book ever.

Perhapes I should have made myslef clearer, I m not disputing the "He spent decades training" or even that he may be one of the bests, on a short list of about 10 people. But when Drew stars calling him the "Perfect Warrior" thats pure hyperbole because he's well...not.




Not quite, DK made it painfully obvious that Banes uber force connectionw as the reason he was beating Kas'im.

"The outcome was inveitable. Bane was simply too strong in the force."

The whole book is basically about Bane giving in to the Dark Side which will make him stronger. And when he finally does and we see his full potential in his duel with Kas'im its because of the force and his memory of everything Kas'im does.

"For the fisrt time he was calling on his full potential."





He did, Kas'im could probably see the blows coming its just Bane was too overwhelming for him to actually do anything about it much like Dooku v Anakin 2.





He had heard of it Kas'im just told him not to pay any attention too it and he like a retard listened.



Um how so? Bane uses sets of Djem So, a style Vader mastered and knew inside and out. not only that but Vader's custom burrows aspects from every other style combined to one, coupled with Vaders speed, incredible power, Bane would essential be fighting a much more advanced version of himself with a broader knowledge of battle, styles, and lightsaber combat. And really which Darth Vader is this? Post or Pre suit?

Vader at the peak of his power.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader at the peak of his power. suited vader or unsuited vader?

Because vader at his peak would be FPA which would be anakin skywalker

And this battle is suited vader btw

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Bane has more raw abilities since Vader is in a suit, yet Vader still has the advantage with the saber and mastery of the force. I'd say he wins but after a difficult fight.
But this is a lightsaber battle only. And Vader in his suit isn't Vader in his prime, ROTS Vader is. Lucas says OT Vader is 80% of Sidious and that ROTS Vader is 100% of Sidious.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Perhapes I should have made myslef clearer, I m not disputing the "He spent decades training" or even that he may be one of the bests, on a short list of about 10 people. But when Drew stars calling him the "Perfect Warrior" thats pure hyperbole because he's well...not.

Ah, no problem then. I do not think that Kas'im is "the perfect warrior." But he is definately one of the best. Bane being able to keep up with him in only a period of 1-4 years speaks greatly for B's prodigy. He was able to complete with one of the bests in lightsaber dueling within such a short time. A warrior who essentially knew more than Bane was unable to best him with his mastery of the "seven" forms of dueling.

Karapshyn was trying to establish Bane's finesse and skill with the lightsaber when he wrote that passage I believe.




He won round two due to his uber force abilities. Round one, he was actually dominating Kas'im in lightsaber. I think that was what "Donkey Kong" was hinting at.

I would liek to add Kas'im was not just knowlegeable in lightsaber dueling, but he was also tremendously fast.

I do not have the passage with me. But remember when Bane was knocking on Kas'im's door? Before Bane could get the second knock in, (which would approximately take 0.5/0.25 seconds) Kas'im opened the door and pulled Bane in. He completely curbstomped a gargantuan rancour within a minute at max. And he was not even warmed up at that point.


If Bane was capable of matching someone who spent decades learning the arts of the saber, and honing these skills to be included in the list of "the best," then he has seen enough of every form of lightsaber combat, from an opponent of incredible fitness and strength. Bane has seen, experienced, and fought in enough lightsaber combat to best someone on the level of Vader.

Unpredictability should not be an issue either. Bane lost because the form of fighting Kas'im employed was something he was unfamiliar with, whereas Kas'im was familiar with everything Bane knew . Thus the premise that Bane can only beat predictable opponents using predictable styles is false.

Take ROTS for expample. Neither Anakin or Obi Wan could best each other in ROTS because they both knew each others styles as intimately as two lovers would know each other (lol, perhaps this is true between Ani and Obi in another sense, but lets not get into that.) Were they both predictable to other opponents? No. They just knew alot about each others lightsaber styles.

Bane was outduelling Kas'im in round 1, despite the fact that they both knew each other's forms expertly. In round two, Kas'im had the advantage; he knew Bane's attacks, while Bane did not know Kas'im's.

Let me summarize things to make it clearer for you. In round one, Bane knew Kas'im's attacks and Kas'im knew Bane's. Anakin knew Obi Wan's attacks, and Obi Wan knew Anakins. Bane was able to best Kas'im (in round 1), however Anakin was unable to best Obi Wan.

Vader does not know Bane's attacks. Bane does not know Vader's attacks. They are both unpredictable.



This only speaks well for Bane. When you say that Bane only triumphed due to his "force muscles," this implies excellent saber technique. Saber strength, as Kas'im explained, is not due to how well you can master the sequences, but how well you can let yourself free and summon the darkside (or the light, depending of course) to guide your saber.




Never disagreed with you here. Well sort of. Dooku is stronger than Anakin in force attacks, and in a neutral arena where he is allowed to use this talent to the max, and is not beholden to a "cardboard cut out" lightsaber battle, he would win.

But I digress. Bane was superiour to Kas'im because of how well he let the force guide his movements. That is partly why he can be considered an excellent duelist. Much like Anakin.



Perhaps. Bane was still naive back then to the darkside and the Sith. He matures throughout PoD, and becomes far more learned in the darkside after consulting Revan's holocron.




Bane also mastered the form, he was able to beat Kas in round 1, with it.



Again, this is much like Kas'im. He mastered every style, and we will assume that he was smart and used them all to his advantage in round one against Bane. He was being overwhelmed. In round two, he won the saber combat because he had a knowledge of Bane's technique (being the one that trained him) whereas the converse was not true. Bane did not experience anything along Jar'Ki with Kas'im.



I disagree. Vader may have been fast, but compared to Bane, who was described as moving as a blur, to fast for the the padawans and Sirak to see, and who was fast enough to overwhelm Kas'im in part one of their duel? I think he has the speed disadvantage.



Vader has power, given. Maybe moreso than Bane. But take Luke's battle against Vader in ROTJ.

Luke was the shorter, frailer, and generally the smaller oponent. Luke I believe is something like 5'7, Vader is something like 7'0. "Mini-me" was somehow able to keep up "with Andre the Giant"(Janus copyright). Bane is tremendously physically strong, not as strong as Vader, true, but a combination of dexterity and sheer muscular "powa!" (which Bane apparently had a lot of) contribute to what we view as strength.



I disagree. Bane was able to keep up with Kas'im in round one mainly due to his strength in the force, prodigious talent, great muscle power, and tremendous speed/dexterity. From the evidence thus presented so far, I believe Bane is the better duelist.



Bane managed to best Kas'im, who also possessed a great knowledge of all battles and styles.

What I am trying to get at, is he fought a duelist who probably knew almost everything to lightsaber combat and nearly bested him. It was only because of factors such as Kas'ims knowledge on Bane's technique, and Bane's lack of knowledge on Kas'im's "alien style" that made him gain the disadvantage in round 2. Otherwise, Bane was the better duelist

Given Bane's resume, I think he can pull of a victory. Although, Vader will definately be challenging, Bane would win.



Good question. I initially though ROTS Anakin, but it seems you are considering OT.

Originally posted by Sexyback
And I really don't see how Vader would contend with this kind of speed:

'He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bolted up inside of him in a tremendous rush of power. He channelled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin.'
For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see. - PoD, PG 170.

I love how people ignore ^. Really, Bane's just too damn skilled for Vader, Vader's a slow piece of crap, Bane would decimate him in seconds.

One thing before I go, where is it exactly stated that it was "years" between Bane's initial start as a Sith and his taking the title Darth, I always thought it was months.





No, he won because as DK put it he was just "too strong in the force" for Kas'im too compete.




That was force speed nothing to really be impressed about.




Whoa, he does not have the experience of Vader, he has only been in ONE actual "Lightsaber" duel (im not counting the stupid poison swords) I fail too see how that gives him the experience edge over Vader, and he has seen Kas'im who blends the styles into a custom, he hasn't seen a complete Master of one form like Yoda with Ataru or Dooku with Makashi.



No, he lost because he panicked. Had he done as before and simply let the force guide him he would have won. My point was when he see's something he's not totally familiar with he loses focus, starts to think about what he's gonna do next, starts think about possible combinations and panics.



It was more then them knowing each other inside and out, it was Anakin in the state of mind he was in. Had it been anyone else and had Padme not been there mostly anybody would have been pwned.




Except Vader does. He uses Djem So, and sets of Djem So that he learned from Kas'im, and Im not 100% sure but I don't even think he learned the most advanced forms of it which Vader unfortunately for him does know, and many other styles most dangerous forms.





Don't bring this up, its already been proved Dooku stopped caring about the "plan" when Obi and Anakin started to get serious.




Meh, force speed. And lets not forget that they where "students" I had this same argument with Escape about how because they are such bums, which the NSO largely was consisted of, its expected they wouldn't be able to keep up. However Vader is not a Sith Student.





We have to take into account that Vader wasn't trying to kill his son or fight back really, and Luke was going off on a Dark Side burst.





Kas'im was still the better duelist. Analogy time! If a averaged sized sword fighter who has matered whatever his blade style is fights a guy who is physically stronger, twice his size and simply swings and the weaker master his overwhelmed by his power does that make the bigger guy necessarily better? No. Same for Bane and Kas'im only add the force into theat equation.

Now we look at Vader who is his physical superior, and still his superior skill in the force, and we have an even match with Vader taking it by having 20 years of experience on him.




Im talking about OT Vader, ROTS Anakin would RAPE Bane, He has every advantage over Bane, Now OT Vader Bane doesn't have a chance since he does have a speed advantage, and maybe but Im still doubting a force advantage, but how far is Bane willingly to go for a victory? We've seen Vader shove a lightsaber through his own chest to kill anther, Vader is willing to stop at nothing to win. Is Bane?

Originally posted by darthsith19
But this is a lightsaber battle only. And Vader in his suit isn't Vader in his prime, ROTS Vader is. Lucas says OT Vader is 80% of Sidious and that ROTS Vader is 100% of Sidious.


I think you are seriously misinterpreting the statement. ROTS Vader was nowhere near as powerful as Sidious, at least not yet. Vader at his PEAK would be twice as powerful as ROTJ Sidious, that's all. Furthermore, Vader was no pushover in saber combat. He did defeat many jedi, and darth Maul. Bane was good with a lightsaber but not that good, not to mention your control of the force is a key determinant in your skill with a saber, so while Bane's control is incredible, Vader's control is better.

One thing acstyles, ROTS anakin isnt anywhere near vader in terms of power and skill but has the speed advantage

OT Vader is more powerful in the Force then he was in ROTS. He also is more experienced.

But I believe that Darth Bane becomes more powerful then Vader. He can win in this fight.

Still Vader will give him a very tough challenge and will not go down easily.

Just to make it clear, this is Cyborg Vader, and by prime, I mean the best he actually got to, however you interpret that, not the best he could possibly get to.

Originally posted by Sexyback
And I really don't see how Vader would contend with this kind of speed:

'He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bolted up inside of him in a tremendous rush of power. He channelled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin.'
For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see. - PoD, PG 170.

Again, there is no way that Vader could contend with this kind of speed, it would be too much for him. Bane defeats him in about 2 seconds, I'd say. Just watch the Palpatine/Saesee Tinn fight, and replace Palpatine with Bane, and Vader with Saesee Tinn. That is what would happen.

Gee, apparently you haven't read any of the Vader comics where he demonstrates incredible speed against the likes of Maul. Darth Bane has a chance here but a very small one.

Vader is slow by Gl's own admission, and we can see as much from the movies.

Here let me show you why you fail: Your seriously putting Darth f*cking Vader on the level of Sith Apprentice Sirak who doesn't even have a lightsaber. If Bane's godlike speed is sooo uber why didn't he use it on Kas'im someone on his level. Its a easy thing to own opponents who are your inferiors. Which the NSO losers were compared to Bane. However, as I said Vader is not some Sith student. Oh and you still suck Planet.

edit

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Here let me show you why you fail: Your seriously putting Darth f*cking Vader on the level of Sith Apprentice Sirak who doesn't even have a lightsaber.

Nope, wrong, I'm putting him below Sirak's level. And it's nice how you constantly point out that the students didn't actually train with a lightsaber as if it's even slightly relevant, when it's not, it's completely irrelevant, the training sabers they used were as good as the real thing, it didn't affect their training in any way. So stop bringing it up.



Perhaps because Kas'im is as fast.



The NSO were perhaps the most martial order of force suers ever, how did they suck? They were only lacking in true sith philosophy and knowledge of ancient sith rituals. That's it!



There were only two sith...



Hey hey.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Vader is slow by Gl's own admission, and we can see as much from the movies.

Stop lying retard, I already proved that crap wrong stop repeating it.

No you didn't. Just because I couldn't be bothered to reply, it doesn't mean shit.

Go away, I'm not even going to dignify that with a serious response, your a idiot fanboi, if you truly believe some sith student is anywhere near the level of DARTH VADER.






No, no, no. The KOTOR Period Jedi/Sith were, 4 GALACTIC Wars in a 50 year time period, 3 of those coming back to back. How did they suck? THe list is endless.

"Bane recognized him as one of the lesser students from the Academy on Korriban: so weak in the Dark Side, it wasn't even worth learning his name." pg276

These are the kind of JOKES that are made DARK LORDS.

The Sith students on Korriban were supposedly the best of the best, yet most were made Lords after MONTHS of training just to fill numbers

Githany a Jedi Knight after a few months is promoted to Lord.

Most of the Sith were cannon fodder that were easily killed by CHILDREN swing lightsabers like monkeys

They were all subservient to Kaan a petty, narcissistic lunatic with a force ability to influence people.

Revan alone held more knowledge then their ENTIRE Academy.

They blew.




Point...

Originally posted by Sexyback
No you didn't. Just because I couldn't be bothered to reply, it doesn't mean shit.

Translation: I have nothing to comeback with so Im gonna say I was busy! Even though Im posting right now and could reply...but that would mean I'd have to have a logical argument...something I lack...along with literacy level above a 4 year old.

Sexyback, Have you seen vader fighting a real opponent in the movies? A real threat? No, we never saw that, its the EU where we saw his real powers and skills

PLanet, as usual you have no argument. Sit down.

its captain-planet DS

Whether it was Lucas' intention or not, the OT has made it a fact that Vader sucks ass. So I'm sorry, but it's a fact. And it's nice how you try and make it seem like you didn't just come out with a worthless point, great job brother.



B4 I answer this, explain what you mean by the KotOR time period.



These are the kind of arguments that make it clear that your bias against the NSO is astounding.

Bane basically considered him so weak in the darkside in comparison to himself and the other student, considering, you know, the fact that he was one of the lesser students you dolt.



Years, not months. Bane was one of the newest students, and he had at least a year at the academy.



That was because Githany was that good. She defeats Kiel Charny in JVS who is one of the strongest jedi at the time, wields an unorthodox weapon that makes her all the more deadly, and Sirak viewed her as the biggest threat to his position when she joins the academy.



Those were the sith minions, not dark lords.



It just so happens that his ability to influence people is beyond any other's that we've so far seen, the dark lords obeying him isn't a strike against them, what exactly is your point? Kaan was that strong, being influenced by him is not a strike against them.



The archives in the academy only contained knowledge of the history and philosophy of the ancient sith, so that statement is in respect to sith history and philosophy, and not related to combat, so moot point.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
PLanet, as usual you have no argument. Sit down.

Sexy, as usual, all you do is ride other people's arguments. Don't you want to be your own person?

Whether it was Lucas' intention or not, the OT has made it a fact that Vader sucks ass. So I'm sorry, but it's a fact. And it's nice how you try and make it seem like you didn't just come out with a worthless point, great job brother.

Oh Im sorry ALMIGHTY GOD of Star WArs Planet! YOUR idiotic view is the only ONE we must accept.

The OT featured Vader never trying to his fullest at all. Oh and you still suck ass.

The point was Sirak is nowhere near Vader. FACT.




From the GSW to the Rise of Nihlius and Sion.





And look here you dolt, why in the hell is a LESSER student being made a DARK LORD OF THE SITH.





Which makes it even sadder.





LOL! Kiel Charny is one of the strongest! According to whom!? You? And you do know it was Darovit who helps Githany kill Kiel, Githany got owned on her own. She blew, figuratively and literally probably.





Thats the reflection of the Sith army being owned by kids especially when they were consisted of people like Dessel.





No Kaan isn't "that" strong its their that "weak" to be goaded around by this lunatic, Bane was the only one strong enough to not be dominated by his "act"





Oh and you can prove this how? Especially when Bane said in regards to force powers that Revan had more then the Achieve had to offer.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Sexy, as usual, all you do is ride other people's arguments. Don't you want to be your own person?


Now see, if that were true, then I wouldn't have created an argument in the beginning. However, since you like to constantly embarass yourself, keep typing without reading the thread. I assure you, this will be a more humorous and less intelligent thread with you here.

O RLY? From the Ultimate Visual Guide, PG83:

'Darth Vader senses his former master's presence on the Death Star, and intercepts Kenobi. They duel with lightsabers, and Vader is confident that he will be the victor, asserting that the roles have reversed since their last fateful encounter on Mustafar - and that now, he is the master. As their battle brings them to the corridor outside the docking bay, the Sith Lord does his best to wear down the aged jedi, and when Ben appears to surrender, Vader does not hesitate to strike.'



I couldn't be bothered to, there's nothing more to it, all your 'ownage' consisted of are strawman arguments, irrelevant misdirection and false analogies.



As in Exar Kun's sith war?



I really don't see your point here. The problem here, for you, is that you can't quantify how strong/weak the student is, so you can't really make an argument. You know, you really should try and be a bit more clearer, I wouldn't want to miss your point. You know what, start again, but change the wording and try and write a bit better.



According to the NEC, he was labelled a 'champion' of the jedi. And Githany defeated him all on her own, she had cut of his arm and he was lying there helpless, Darovit just delivered the execution.



Are you talking Gloom Walker Dessel here? Really, you need to be more clearer, I'm finding it really hard to get some of your points here. If you're trying to make an argument against the DLs of the NSO by using the sith minions, good luck buddy!



Do you actually have proof that Kaan was weak? No? Thought so. Now here's the problem with your argument, you are arguing that the NSO masters were weak because they were influenced so easily, correct? Well for your argument to work, you would actually have to proof that Kaan's mind influence was weak, but you can't do that, so you have no argument. You're doing this quite a lot, that is what many of your arguments consist of, making comparisons mixed with unsupported assumptions.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Now see, if that were true, then I wouldn't have created an argument in the beginning. However, since you like to constantly embarass yourself, keep typing without reading the thread. I assure you, this will be a more humorous and less intelligent thread with you here.

You know Sexy, I'm that confident in my superiority in debate over you that I think I could argue the most ridiculous point, and I think I would still beat you. In fact, let's put it to the test. I'm gonna argue that Freedon Nadd is the chosen one, kinda ridiculous don't you think? Prove me wrong, if you can. If you can't, that's kinda worrying.

From the Ultimate Visual Guide, PG83:

'Darth Vader senses his former master's presence on the Death Star, and intercepts Kenobi. They duel with lightsabers, and , asserting that the roles have reversed since their last fateful encounter on Mustafar - and that now, he is the master. As their battle brings them to the corridor outside the docking bay, the Sith Lord does his best to wear down the aged jedi, and when Ben appears to surrender, Vader does not hesitate to strike.'

Thats why he wouldn't try his hardest, you don't seem to get that Vader going all out in a duel does not mean him slamming his lightsbaer against Old Ben's, it emans him taking it serious from the start, as he did with Dark Lady, as he did with Maul. So on and so forth.







Then why not dissect my argument piece by piece and point out the fallacies, you obviously have enough time to do so since your still posting here.




THE GREAT SITH WAR. YES. Acronym: GSW.





Uh yes I can, if even some of the strongest students like Githany and Sirak could barley shot out a strand of Force lightning and they are the purported "top dogs" then a lesser student like this wouldn't have even been included in the lesson. AND HE IS A DARK LORD.





Direct Quote please, I believe NOTHING you say. And since when does Champion = The Strongest.

a person who fights for or defends any person or cause: a champion of the oppressed. a fighter or warrior.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=8&page=086

Easy to beat an foe when he you know...wont fight back...





No, my point was toward the NSO in general, I never limited it to Dark Lords, they ALL suck.



I never said Kaan was weak, its just he's not "that" strong, as I said before, Bane however is "that" strong. Kaan being a B level Sith comes from the fact that: He was scared shitless of Bane, He was scared shitless of everything, He was overwhelmed by a Jedi while using Battle Meditation, He was only the "leader" because of his mind trick and because of the fact he was the only one who was competent enough (at the time) to lead them. Bane easily thwarted and broke his influence. Many of your arguments consist of, making comparisons mixed with unsupported assumptions

LMAO





The whole forum practically hates Planet. I find it quite amusing....



ROFL, what a stupid topic?

Answer: George Lucas
Extra Proof: From Star Wars Databank- "A child born of prophecy, possibly conceived by the will of the Force itself..."

A child born of prophecy, basically none other than the Chosen One.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I think you are seriously misinterpreting the statement. ROTS Vader was nowhere near as powerful as Sidious, at least not yet. Vader at his PEAK would be twice as powerful as ROTJ Sidious, that's all. Furthermore, Vader was no pushover in saber combat. He did defeat many jedi, and darth Maul. Bane was good with a lightsaber but not that good, not to mention your control of the force is a key determinant in your skill with a saber, so while Bane's control is incredible, Vader's control is better.
Wrong: ROTS Vader is 100% of ROTS Sidious.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/the_cult_of_darth_vader/page/2

"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor". If from then on he wasn't as strong as the Emperor then before that he was as strong as the Emperor.

Only because people think I'm a sock and because I shortly went through a dick phase which people can't seem to get over.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Only because people think I'm a sock and because I shortly went through a dick phase which people can't seem to get over.

To be honest, that "dick phase" has encompassed most of your time here - which you seemed to have devolved to, back on that "Legacy Comics" thread ("I don't believe you! Prove it! Waa!". Likewise, the whole sock issue spawns from your constant references to events made before your time here, your similar attitude/opinions/tactics that Nebaris used, and your references to EoD - despite you not being registered there.

I lurk. And sure, I kind of go back and forth with the whole acting like a dick thing, but people take it too seriously, they should just see that it's nothing personal.

Or, you're a sock. Especially if you see my profile, you've made references to situations about myself and you. Which don't fit in, exactly, unless you're Nebaris/Kas'im. There are methods around the whole "sock-checker". It has been done before. It is also extremely convenient how you lurk around EoD and know enough about KMC despite your recent registry.



Being a dick isn't appealing. What can I say? When people act like a dick, it is fun to see them get humiliated, and only encourages further public embarrassment.

You lurk, lol that just sounds funny.

Bane would own darth vader. He only needed the force storm technique to win. Vader, so fragile to firce lightning has showed in ROTJ, would just crack in two against a storm of lightning...

Originally posted by kamhal
Bane would own darth vader. He only needed the force storm technique to win. Vader, so fragile to firce lightning has showed in ROTJ, would just crack in two against a storm of lightning...

This is a lightsaber battle. That means no Force storm. No Force lightning. No Force.

Originally posted by kamhal
Bane would own darth vader. He only needed the force storm technique to win. Vader, so fragile to firce lightning has showed in ROTJ, would just crack in two against a storm of lightning...

Lol and vader can just execute a force crush which is instant, poor bane in this battle.


By the way, anakin,mace and all other victims of lightning have been writhing in pain when they get hit, vader still had the power and strength to walk around with his master and throw his ass into a shaft

Yeah, know force crush is instant? And i think vader would be more fragile against force powers them some who still flesh--- Anyway, i say bane again.

Kadesh,
1. This is a lightsaber battle.
2. Bane is leagues above Vader with the force, don't be ridiculous saying that he could just choke Bane.

Leauges...lol...proof? Oh wait I already know, "Lieik Bane May or MAY not have moved a small moon." "Liek Bane knocked an 20,000+ year old temple down!" Your such a fanboy.

I proved that he moved the moon or at least did something of that nature, and yes, the temple feat does put Bane above Vader, as it was the redirection of a portion of the original attack that knocked the temple down, the blast head on would be much more powerful. Vader's done, what? Nothing that would put him close to Bane in power.

You didn't prove shit, I asked for a quote and you stopped posting, so STFU. And there was no "redirection" thats bullshit your fanboyish mind has made up, it was simply one big, ridicules force wave that Bane had to summon that knocked down a 20,000+ year old temple. Big Whoop. Vader yelling has done the same, Vader has even healed his grievous wounds at one point. The mere fact that he survived being hacked and lit on fire is a testament to his power. Vader has force chocked people on the other side of the galaxy, Vader can crush foes in an instant. Vaders power has completely canceled out others force attacks. Yeah he's a weakling alright. And you still suck.

Pwnt

Well I don't have the book on me, just ask Lightsnake.



Bullshit! It was an attack aimed at Kas'im, who blocked it, and then redirected it towards the temple.



On a much smaller scale, and that was before he lost his awesome connection.



ZOMG!! That man is uber



It was stated in some novel that it was Palpatine who saved him, not Vader himself.



Quantify and substantiate this!



Non force users. Vader choked Quordis to death as if he were a child.



Elaborate please.



It's nice we're on the same wavelength here.



My my, you really do have a weird relationship with your mumma there..

Planet, you have yet to provide proof that Kas'im "redirected" the blast. Jollyjim's explanation of the event is more logical, especially when Kas'im was supposedly stated to not be a veritable titan in the Force. You're exaggerating; which is funny, considering how you then point fingers at others who exaggerate or - in your words - "lie".

Stop proclaiming that he redirected it 'til you offer substantial proof.

Well let's see, Bane aimed an attack at Kas'im, kas'im defended against it, and then the temple was hit by the attack. Hmm, I wonder...

Seriously, brainpower is useful.

Jollyjim's account is just as viable and is more logical. Your word is not the gospel, period.



Yeah, aren't you the one proclaiming that Freedon Nadd is the Chosen One, and then refuting a statement made by George Lucas. Don't lecture anyone here on brainpower.

Dude, Freedon Nadd is much more likely to be the chosen one than Anakin Skywalker, don't be silly.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Dude, Freedon Nadd is much more likely to be the chosen one than Anakin Skywalker, don't be silly.

Lucas = SW law. Planet = not SW law. He confirmed, in interviews and on the "Chosen One" special on the RotS special features DVD that Anakin was the Chosen One. Your Freedon Nadd theory has just been scuttled. Accept it and move on.

He confirmed, in interviews and on the "Chosen One" special on the RotS special features DVD that Anakin was the Chosen One.

Prove it!

I do agree that Bane would probably take care of Vader. Bane seems to have had a lot of power.

He pwns Vader, badly.

George Lucas has said something along the lines of "I think it's pretty clear that Anakin is the Chosen One."

(Don't swear by the quote, but, it's something like that.)

I already did. Go watch the damn video. And quit whining about proof, please. Do me a favor and prove that Kas'im redirected that blast of energy.

He directed the attack at Kas'im. Kas'im defended against it. The attack then hit the temple. the only was the attack could have gone from Kas'im to the temple is if Kas'im redirected it.

Originally posted by Sexyback
He directed the attack at Kas'im. Kas'im defended against it. The attack then hit the temple. the only was the attack could have gone from Kas'im to the temple is if Kas'im redirected it.

No. Jollyjim's account is as equally viable. You haven't proven anything. So, quit lying about the redirection.

Now, I provided the quote that Lucas confirmed that Anakin was the Chosen One. I provided the source. It is on the RotS special features DVD, on a documentary specifically called "The Chosen One".

That's more than you have provided. Anakin is the Chosen One. Period.

You haven't proven that what you provided actually happened. Until you do that, I have no reason to believe you.

No.

l -> (l (energy that went arounr Kas'Im's shield, because he only blocked around his body).

l = people
( = shield

Edit: Wow that sucks as an explanation.

Originally posted by Sexyback
You haven't proven that what you provided actually happened. Until you do that, I have no reason to believe you.

I couldn't care less if you believe me. It's there. It's fact. I provided the quote. I provided the source. I'm sorry that I can't make you watch the damn thing, but it's your choice. Anakin is the Chosen One, irregardless.

Actually, Escape, Planet has a point. I mean, look at it this way: He's too lazy to do any research by himself, so, Anakin isn't the Chosen One. Jeez.

Wrong. It's up to you to provide your proof, not up to me to look for it.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Actually, Escape, Planet has a point. I mean, look at it this way: He's too lazy to do any research by himself, so, Anakin isn't the Chosen One. Jeez.

Yeah. Just like "Bane moved the moon!" and "Kas'im redirected it!", though he hasn't provided proof for either of it, we're just supposed to accept it.

Ah, Planet-logic. It's hilarious.



Damn. Then I guess we have a problem. 'Cause it's a freakin' DVD. Go watch it yourself. I provided the quote. I provided the source. I've done my part. No one cares if you think "Freedon Nadd is the Chosen One111!!!!". He's not.

Host it online, it's all up to you.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Host it online, it's all up to you.

Or, you can go watch "The Chosen One" special feature on the RotS DVD.

It's up to you, not up to me.

Right, it's everyone elses' responsibility to find a quote that you would accept (only if you want it to) on a thread that's unrelated to the topic?

Stop asking others to substanciate information YOUR claiming. Till I have a quote or a scan its doesn't say it.





"Hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademasters speech"

"There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple...But at the last possible moment he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack" pg 245

Nothing was redirected because Bane wasn't aiming at anything, he was letting everything out in one blast in the general direction of Kas'im, in a last ditch attempt to kill him. Notice how the book says that the temple was being shook by the unleashing of the energy before Kas'im even threw his shield up. There was no redirection in the sense your talking about. I even drew a picture with my ownage paint skillz:

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/5408/banejl1.png




He didn't lose his awesome connection, he only became 80% of Sidious which is still godly, and at that point Anakin hadn't gotten his full potential so your point is moot, and he duplicates it again in ROTS just by getting angry he can destroy a room.




Oh yeah and Palpatine was their seconds after Vader was owned No. He was lying there, the fires put out when Palpatine arrived, meaning he survived the fires torching his body, the pain of losing 3 limbs all by sheer will power.





What are you talking about? He reaches out in the force and can choke beings from across the galaxy.





So, what. Whats with you and everybody having to be a force user for the feat to be impressive even when being a force user has no bearing on the situation.





"His gaze fully engaged on the twirling blade, his heart hammering in his chest. Calling on the force, he tried to influence the course of the lightsaber, but either the Force wasn't with him or Vader's force abilities were overpowering his." RODV 216





Blow me.




Mother jokes? How lame, and what are you British?

That's right. Until then, I'm gonna continue believing that Freedon Nadd is the chosen one, and that's because he killed the last true sith.

AC, so many wrongs in that post, I'll reply later.

And...at this point I could care less if you respond or not, your gonna get owned and stop posting once you see you have no argument, which will happen, because plain and simple: I'm better then you and your a retarded fanboy. Your our village idiot so resume your duties and make me laugh with a reply sock.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And...at this point I could care less if you respond or not, your gonna get owned and stop posting once you see you have no argument, which will happen, because plain and simple: I'm better then you and your a retarded fanboy. Your our village idiot so resume your duties and make me laugh with a reply sock.

Let me put this on my profile.

Go ahead.

Believe me, I'm not replying 'cause I can't be bothered, not because I can't. But let's take one post for example.



This is a perfect example of how dumb your posts can be. It displays sheer idiocy and ignorance; the fact that you would believe being a force user has no bearing on how well you can defend against force attacks is simply idiotic.

Now believe me when I say this, I'm not replying because I can't be bothered too, not because I can't. Debating against you is draining. It's not because you're good, it's because your tactics drain and tire the person you're up against (you're a big fan of irrelevant misdirection and unnecessarily drawing out debates). Kinda like how Lightsnake debates, except he's also actually good. You're not.

The point you fail to get is I wasn't taking into account the force sensitivity of recipient of Vaders onslaught, it was the mere fact that he has and can do the feat, Force Sensitivity as I said in this case is regardless. And in the case of the Wookies it was regardless, had the person been a force user I would have specified, but its regardless so there is no need to. That said its your hard on for everything done by a character, not Bane, has to be done too a force user. Thats your problem, not mine.


*Yawn* Insults aren't your strong suit, stick too irrelevant points, misquotes, lying, and sheer fanboyism, thats the Sock we all know and love!

Who are you trying to kid here AC? Are you hoping that people will just read that post without reading the others and assume that you are correct based on your deceptive attitude?

Now this was your original point:
'Vader can crush foes in an instant.'

Then, when I pointed out that Vader only was able to do this to non force users, you replied by saying that whether the person on the receiving end of the attack was a force user or non force user makes no difference, which is simply bs. A force user has the capabilities to defend against that kind of attack, a non force user doesn't. Now I really don't see how you think you can save yourself by talking bs about reading comprehension and force sensitivity, but face it, you are wrong.



This makes sense..



Right, because that was me insulting you.. And seriously dude, you're not quite in the position to talk, considering Darth fricking Subjekt (not exactly the wittiest guy, eh?) burned the hell out of you, made you look silly.

Again the idiot can't read and gets things wrong, I wasn't talking about the power "force crush" I never even said force crush although he can do that too, I meant he can crush foes in an instant, literally, which he has done. And Force Sensitivity is not a factor in that to do the feat, he's done it too Jedi and regulars alike, Even the some of the strongest have gotten owned by Vader (Dark Lady). So in all I do apologize for not clarifying myself but its still you own fault for having not being able to read a sentence properly (Am I surprised) No wonder you posts gems like this

"Non force users. Vader choked Quordis to death as if he were a child."




When...and since when is insults a show of intelligence? Its only a degrading thing that has no baring on intelligence, you being able to do them attests to this.

Are these the kind of insults you were talking about? Hot stuff!



OK, I see how the confusion has arisen here, but this is completely a strike against you, not me. Given the context you used the word 'crush', who wouldn't think you were referring to force crush? I don't know if you actually do this on purpose, perhaps you do, but your points are often very vague to the point where it's pretty hard not to miss your point.



well are you?



Refer to the draining tactic you do that I talked about earlier.



Did I say that? Reading comprehension not quite working for you, eh?



Debatable.



And this is why Subjekt made you look silly, LOL!

Adding laughing smilies (I hate that stupid thing and the damn banana) to your points don't make them fact/right/funny. You mis interpreted it, you got it wrong, you took it out of context, I didn't say anything about the force, and you even get your own posts wrong, you being a retard has nothing to do with me, your lack of reading comprehension has no barring on me, so now can we move forward and let you continue to embarrass yourself.

I'm not saying that what I said was funny, I just find the fact that Subjekt merked you hilarious. I also find the fact that you insult like a middle aged person pretty funny too.



Well when you write like a seven year old, it's sometimes hard to get you.



Darth Sexy, much?

I could care less about your last post.



Actually, your the only person who seems to have this problem: Escape gets it, Darth Sexy gets it, Lightsnake gets it, Advent gets it, everyone from my previous forum got it. Its only you. So excuse me if I expect everyone to be of an average intelligence level, and have some basic reading comprehension. Anywho come now sock, lets get on with this...

Now now, no need to get moody.

Anyways, 'whom'? 'anywho'? You a 60 year old historian or something?



It's nice that they can see past your misleading grammar.
Also, the fact that you included Darth Sexy in that list makes it clear that you're talking rubbish. He's been known to suffer from terrible reading comprehension. So thanks for making it clear that you're lying there buddy!

Let's try to get this back on track, please...

Whatever sock, I've no ambition to go on with you on an irrelevant topic (your idiocy) either get back on topic, post a reply, or stop wasting my time.

Fine by me.

Anyways, I really don't see how Vader would contend with this kind of speed:

'He waited until the last possible second before unleashing the energy bolted up inside of him in a tremendous rush of power. He channelled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew and finally skin.'
For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see. - PoD, PG 170.

We've seen ANH, we've seen him try his hardest, and he's a slow piece of crap.

Read RODV.

Don't need to, I can just watch ANH, and Vader sucks ass, bad. And don't act as if he wasn't trying or anything, it's been confirmed that he tried his hardest, and even if he didn't, it's not like you would appear as a clumsy, slow, unagile duelist just because you are holding back from killing someone.

And I'm not gonna argue moot points.

I've proved:

A. Vader was not trying his hardest, why would he he was confident he would win from the start, he could feel Obi Wans DRAMATIC decline in power.

B. We've seen Vader try his hardest, it was against Maul.

C. Force Speed. Plain and Simple

D. They were weakling Sith students who could barley form stains of Sith Lightning when every generic neophyte under the sun can do it. Of course their eyes wouldn't be able to follow the action, same as Liea watching Luke v Sidious, because she was so weak at the time she couldn't keep up.

Bring something new about Banes speed that was NOT against a weakling student, who could barley form lightning. The you'll have an argument. Vaders speed has already been proved, remember I owned you in a topic called Darth Vader vs Count Dooku a few days back.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Don't need to, I can just watch ANH, and Vader sucks ass, bad. And don't act as if he wasn't trying or anything, it's been confirmed that he tried his hardest, and even if he didn't, it's not like you would appear as a clumsy, slow, unagile duelist just because you are holding back from killing someone.

Bad technology in the 70's, bad choreography, Lucas wanting lightsabers to be heavy weapons that took alot to swing...then changing his mind.
Script:
"The two Galactic warriors stand perfectly still for a few
moments, sizing each other up and waiting for the right
moment. Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain,
as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He
shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes.
Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked
by a lightning movement of The Sith. A masterful slash stroke
by Vader is blocked by the old Jedi. Another of the Jedi's
blows is blocked, then countered. Ben moves around the Dark
Lord and starts backing into the massive starship hangar. The
two powerful warriors stand motionless for a few moments with
laser swords locked in mid-air, creating a low buzzing sound."

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And I'm not gonna argue moot points.

I've proved:

A. Vader was not trying his hardest, why would he he was confident he would win from the start, he could feel Obi Wans DRAMATIC decline in power.

I've already disproved this. He was stated in the Ultimate Visual Guide to have done his best against Obi-Wan, I already quoted this, and you seemed to tackle it with a strawman IIRC.



And he basically got bested. But this doesn't matter as he did try his hardest against Ben.



1. This isn't KotOR, you know. Force speed isn't a basic power that just anybody can execute once they've learnt it.

2. All jedi are trained to use the force to augment their speed, however to try and downplay a considerable usage of the technique by just saying that it's force speed which anybody can execute is ridiculous. The fact is, while most force users learn how to slightly enhance their speed with the force, not many have shown the ability to move that fast. It's extremely impressive, it's beyond Vader, Vader wouldn't be able to cope with it.



That was after 1 hour of originally learning the technique, failed to mention that, didn't you?



On their first try?



The students that couldn't quite keep up with Bane's actions had been trained to use the force for years, calling them weak without proving it doesn't quite lessen the feat.



Sirak, a weakling student? Are you having a laugh? he was so powerful that most of the sith thought he might actually be the sith'ari instead of Bane.



Quit lying, he shows quite clearly in his final battle with Bane how to summon force lightning. Did you even read PoD? It was after having just learnt force lightning that he could barely summon it.



Right, because I never replied, that means you owned me.
Please, I provided plenty of proof, all you did was either ignore it or attempt to, but fail to work around it. It's been proven that Vader's slow.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Bad technology in the 70's, bad choreography, Lucas wanting lightsabers to be heavy weapons that took alot to swing...then changing his mind.
Script:
"The two Galactic warriors stand perfectly still for a few
moments, sizing each other up and waiting for the right
moment. Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain,
as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He
shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes.
Ben makes a sudden lunge at the huge warrior but is checked
by a lightning movement of The Sith. A masterful slash stroke
by Vader is blocked by the old Jedi. Another of the Jedi's
blows is blocked, then countered. Ben moves around the Dark
Lord and starts backing into the massive starship hangar. The
two powerful warriors stand motionless for a few moments with
laser swords locked in mid-air, creating a low buzzing sound."

Those are only out-of-story explanations which means squat in these debates. The fact is, the highest form of canon shows Vader being slow, George Lucas aka Star Wars God has confirmed this, anything that contradicts that fact is rendered invalid. So unlucky.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Those are only out-of-story explanations which means squat in these debates. The fact is, the highest form of canon shows Vader being slow, George Lucas aka Star Wars God has confirmed this, anything that contradicts that fact is rendered invalid. So unlucky. You do know that vader has not fight to his fullest in the movies right, was luke a real jedi? Was any of his enemies a great threat to him? No, Was he actually shown how he really fought in the movies? No

The highest form of canon(the movies) has just proven this

Bullshit, he fought to the fullest in ANH, the Ultimate Visual Guide proves this.

Then i guess TESB and ROTJ contradicts ANH because we saw vader faster than he was in ANH,

By the way, being slow doesnt mean you get pwned, Oponents were
faster than vader was and yet vader could pwn them with saber skills alone.


Contradiction? No-no, leland chee or GL himself would make statements if there were contradictions with vader

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/432124_1-darth-vader-or-anakin-skywalker

Continue the debate here if you wish.

Sure, because you have failed to prove that what has been shown in the EU actually contradicts the movies,

sorry captain planet, Vader did what he did, whats done has been done, if he was shown that he was fast, it damm well means he did it, It has been recorded in galactic history and thus been shown to us,


So your excuse of "higher canon" fails miserably, If you want to use "the true form of canon" Then i guess DE and LOTF directly contradicts ROTJ because we saw boba die in there,
Huh? but the part where it said boba escaped, its in the EU! and it contradicts the movies!!

And in that same quote you posted said Vader was confident he would win from the start, And in the movie Vader says Obi Wans powers and skill have drastically declined, and in the script it says Obi Wan was being overwhelmed by Vaders presence. Oh yeah he was trying his hardest.



And he basically got bested. But this doesn't matter as he did try his hardest against Ben.

Too bad your wrong on both accounts since Vader won against Maul, wasn't bested the Acolytes commented on how even they were and Maul himself was impressed with Vader, and he wasn't trying against Ben.



.

Yeah because the NSO are so shitty that can't do it.




Admittedly after re-reading the exert, it says Bane unleashed all the force energy he had been building up when he was toying with Sirak, so yes it is different from Force Speed, but for him to do this it would require that his opponent be a joke, which Vader isn't, that his opponent give him the time to build up that energy, that his opponent doesn't have lightning quick reflex's which Vader has proved he does when he with his battle with Maul, keeping up with him blow for blow, even when Maul busted out his Jar Kari. And that Maul was just as good if not better then TMP version, with this he knew all Mauls fighting styles even the TK moves, and its implied Sidious was behind his creation with this

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=045





Regardless see below.




Uh I've already proved them to be losers, one of the lesser students who Bane thought so insignificant he didn't even learn his name was made a Dark Lord, he being one of the lesser students wasn't even invited to learn from the masters like Quordis who only brought their attention to the strongest. That said it means the the MAJORITY of the Sith Students on Korriban were self taught jokes who couldn't even perform Force Lightning since they were too weak to be included in the lessons.

"Those who showed promise--the individuals who elevated themselves above the others--were rewarded. They received one on one instruction with the Masters to reach their full potential. Those who could not keep up were left behind. That was the way of the dark side." pg 105

Again weak SELF TAUGHT Dark Force users are made Lords...no wonder the Brotherhood lost almost EVERY battle on Ruusan.





Oh yeah being the strongest in a group of jokes...big whoop, at least Bane had competition in Kas'im. Other then Kas'im, Bane, Kaan and maybe Kopezc the Brotherhood blew donkey balls.





"Staggering back, Bane was almost too distracted to see Sirak unleashing a BOLT of crackling blue lightning at him" pg 206


Owned.





No, but when I owned your argument in every way and you stop responding with the excuse "I can't be bothered" even though your debating the EXACT same thing with me now, it means you got owned. You provided half assed assumptions, misinterpretations and lies. Vader moves faster in his duel with Luke in ROTJ then Sidious does against Mace in ROTS, AND Sidious was using his godly force speed

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YGVBGFbB6eI - Mace V Palpy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqS5x-PiHpw&NR - Vader v Luke ROTJ

Almost every single EU source describes Vader as LIGHTNING fast, and the fact that Vader doesn't even see his suit as a limitation but more of a costume, it has NO hindrance on his speed.

But really what can Bane do to Vader? Speed is irrelevant since Vader wont let him gather huge bursts of force energy, his force attacks wont harm Vader (or even if they did Vader would eat them and keep coming) since Vader was able to take Sidious's lightning which knocked down Yoda, Mace and Luke and has killed a battalion of storm troopers AND has insta killed Acolytes
( http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=043 )

Vader was able to take that, walk and chuck Sidious. Vader can take lightsabers in to damn chests, Vader has 20 years of experience in the Dark Side over Bane, so powerful that even the Ancients respected him.

Then we have the fact that the great dark power that Luke is so worried about in LOTF, he alikeness the power he felt from that too Vader.

AC brings up a point. I'd like to note how powerful Sidious's lightning can be (and this is pre-RotJ). With a single hand, he obliterated those Sith alcolytes to the point that all that remained was their skeletons. And they were powerful Force users.

Damn... Can I say, WTFBBQPWNT?

Aghhh soo much text...Im deleting most of it sice most of it is just saying the same thing.





Not totally, sure it helps to be a juggernaut in the force to aid and supplement your dueling skills but still those who are not can attain the same level of mastery, Obi Wan Kenobi has what an above average connection, can be easily overwhelmed in the force by very strong users like Dooku and yet he is quite possibly the greatest Soresu master the order has ever seen. So your inference on TEH LEET force power = Automatic uber saber skillz is wrong. It helps but its not the be all end all.





What your implying in your statements is that Kas'im use one style that he has completely mastered then switch to the next and so on and so forth in his duel against Bane just to showcase his skills, he didn't. The book makes NO mention what so ever of Kas'im switching or using anyone particular style in "Round One" he is on the defensive running for his life the entire time. Now in "Round 2" He uses Jar Kari to its full effect that is quite possibly the only style that Bane has seen such mastery in.



Um ROVD says he takes aspects from every style event he most dangerous levels to blend it into one style. And considering Bane has only seen complete leetness in ONE style (Jar Kari) Im sure he'd be surprised.



Yes, because as I've been saying Bane has only seen leetness in one style. Bane even says Kas'im always held back in the practice duels (so that means he didn't show him his real skills) and Kas'im doesn't display anyone particular style in "round one" other then form "I have to get the f*ck out of here."



So is Vader.





SO WAS vader, his only purpose at that point in his life was gaining enough power to kill Sidious.




No, because if Bane had truly focused and gave himself over to the Dark Side the styles would have been regardless, again Bane panicked, lost his focus and ended up getting owned.




No. Prove that Qordis is on the level of Obi Wan. Before you make assumptions like that. Again he hasn't seen every style to its full effect.


Sure he was hurt, but he came to Mustafar with one purpose in mind and that was: kill Anakin Skywalker, by any means necessary. Obi Wan showed NO compassion for Anakin in the duel, he was content to cut him in half while he lied defenseless on a table, he was content to allow Anakin to plummet to his death in a lake of lava, and he was content enough to WATCH Anakin get lit on fire and nearly burn to death with hacked off limbs. So yeah Obi Wan was FAR from conflicted.

Vader beat Maul, who "Masters the lightsaber" before TPM times. So, Maul mastered every aspect, not just his form, everything. And Vader still managed a victory, even when Maul used two lightsabers.

Awww nebaris, you're still thinking you pwned somebody in a debate? Keep dreaming bro.

No there is no pwnage Planet.



As

No, if Dooku could have used his force powers then he would have, Anakin was all over him, Anakin was too fast for him, Anakin was too damn strong. Dooku couldn't keep up, and he couldn't use his force powers because Anakin was on him in seconds. Are you expecting Anakin too sit there and let Dooku Zap him?





Bad Analogy. Since Liea is nowhere near Luke or Sidious and couldn't match there movements we don't know how fast they were going, since Liea is our only witness. Sidious used the same speed in ROTS in the novel and Anakin could follow his movements, watching him fight Mace Windu. So your point is irrelevant, since Anakin can follow and has been shown to react fast enough.

Then we have the fact that you omitted that Bane had GATHERED that force energy up just to unleash it in that single burst, he didn't sustain that speed. So again irrelevant, and I doubt highly Vader would LET him gather energy.







And? Still this wasn't Vader at his best, and at that point in the duel. Vader was toying with Luke, and Luke caught him by surprise by using the Dark Side and once Vader stooped playing he hacked Lukes hand off, something he could have doen the entire time.




His connection is stronger? Since he's clearly not stronger then Sidious, he is according to you what 10 - 15% stronger then Vader?





So wrong, he was able to knock down a 20,000 year old temple, with a ridicules force wave...Big whoop. Stop with the Qordris = Obi Wan bullshit unless you can prove it. No, KJA implied that he may have but you can't prove it so its irrelevant speculation. Vader was able to chock his Inquisitor Melroma(sp) while simultaneously collapsing the room with his anger. Your overrating Bane SEVER LY.






Proof? Anakin has a stronger connection, more training, while using the dark side more focus that he is able to make lightsaber masters who by your own admission may be better then Kas'im look like utter jokes, and tool them in 8 seconds. He is faster and one of the greatest masters of Djem So ever. Also one of the most powerful Jedi ever, BOTH Bane's get butt raped, again your SEVER LY overrating Bane.





No, they were even, the Acolytes and Maul are both surprised by his skill. Your right Maul is no Bane, he has only mastered more, and dedicated his life to his martial prowess, and this Maul was concocted by pure Dark Side energy, he was hate. The ONLY thing Bane has over him is his force connection.





Yeah after he gathered and unleashed all his reservoirs of force energy which with anybody with a brain WOULDN'T do, he was left completely drained. Sidious however does his in an instant and he's still not drained.

Now thats pwnage

sigh do i need to post that quote again which proves vaders saber skills by the OT?

Vader shredded a 1m thick blast door by just screaming obi wans name, and in empire comics he froze bolts in the air and sent them back flying onto his targets. JJ posted that link and he confirmed it


Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.

Notice that the ASP droids were programed with every known form? And that they were stronger than humans?

Vader developed a personalized version of Djem So, battling with one hand only while keeping the other slack at his side, a style that included elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. It was resoundingly effective, both as a practical fighting style and a psychological weapon.

Last thing, When vader fought luke skywalker in ROTJ, it was proven luke was using vaders own form of djem so and proved its effectivness even against its own practionar, That just proves how deadly vaders lightsaber form is.

It is logical to assume luke did because he learnt soresu from obi wan, ataru from yoda and his lightsaber was originally designed for a djem so practitionar and isnt vaders lightsaber form are made up of these elements as RODV pointed out?

Originally posted by Kadesh


Indeed?!

Your typing the same thing over and over, its quite annoying, single out the points that deal with one thing as I did and delete the rest that have already been addressed. It makes the argument flow much smoother and I have to respond to 80 points dealing with the same thing.

Obi Wans feelings:

Lets also take into account the fact that the duel in ROTS Novel is MUCH shorter, and that particular dialog doesn't occur in the movies, hell the ENTIRE ending dialog is pretty much different from the movie, I go with the higher source of canon. In the movie there was NO hesitation, Obi Wan was ready to hack Anakin in half when he was lying on the table defenseless. Oh yeah real conflicted, the difference between Anakin being conflicted and Obi Wan is even if Obi Wan was hesitating, Anakin being infuriated is not his best, he makes stupid reckless choices and is not fighting to the best of his ability, Anakin focusing his anger is damn near unstoppable.

On Kas'im lack of style changing:

In their round one half page long duel Kas'im ATTACKS six times the rest is pure defense, now your logically expecting me to believe that EACH one of those blows was the highest most dangerous level of each form? Get real. Your argument is so flawed for the fact that the duel wasn't that long, your trying to make it seem as if it was Anakin v Obi Wan but in reality it was more like Anakin v Dooku ROTS, very short with one dominate. Im not saying Kas'im wasn't trying his hardest its just he couldn't display his leet dueling skills because he was being
overwhelmed.

Qordris:

By your own admission the students he brought out of the Academy were on the level of Liea in Dark Empire, that is INCREDIBLY crappy for students who'ev been their for years. Now obviously he wasn't that good of a teacher since he was shelling out crap and really couldn't even control his students. What your failing to grasp is that the Brotherhood of Darkness sucked ass overall, so its no stretch that their leaders, whom Revan alone had more darkside knowledge then all 26 lord combined, sucked ass also

Obi Wan's connection

Obi Wan does not have some godly connection, I 've already established this since he had his defenses overwhelmed by Dooku, twice, and Ventress also. Him beating Grevious is not a big feat considering the condition Grevious was in and considering Obi Wan's style was custom built to beat that type of foe. That being said it wasn't Obi Wans uber connection that gave him the edge in the fight it was his reliance on a particular style and his profincey in it.

Bane's speed compared to DE Sids and Luke:

You still have no proof of either case, so the point is irrelevant:
This is Banes max speed, that we know of:

"Kas'im lunged again, and the room around them was filled with the hiss hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats." - 242

Now with that I did a comparison, at multiple points in the duel Anakin and Obi Wan match that, (I used my own heart beat as a reference) and in the span of about 5 seconds they have about 25 passes at each other. Now I'm not doubting(nor have I ever have) that Bane is faster than OT Vader, but ROTS Anakin? Hells no.

Sidious speed:

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed-could that be Palpatine?"

How does that imply that he couldn't keep up? He was confused that he has just seen his old, politician, mentor going blow for blow with Mace Windu. I would say "Is that Palpatine!?" too.

Um whose ass did pull Sidious getting faster out of? There is NO evidence that he got faster as of DE or even that his lightsaber skills have improved. The only definite evidence of growth we have is in force skill, which multiple sources state that he consulted the Ancients and they taught him, that he scoured the galaxy for force information and learned them. None of this makes mention of his personal dueling skills, none of it. You can't make a logical deduction either because Sidious uses the same speed against Mace, and is moving as far as I can tell just as fast.


Sidious and Bane

Your do understand that by TMP Sidious was ALREADY the strongest of his lineage, that includes Bane.
"The Sith finally emerged from a thousand years of watching and waiting, they numbered in accordance with the tradition set down by Darth Bane, only two. The most powerful of these was Darth Sidious, an ice-cold, diabolically calculating genius equipped with the strengths of the dark side of the Force, as well as an enormous wealth of Sith artifacts, equipment, and knowledge."

-- Darkside Sourcebook, Chapter Five: Dark Side Traditions, Page 85.

Sidious in all incarnations > Bane.

Bane's stupid force blast:

Again, he had to gather force energy too knock down a 20,000+ year old building, no matter how hard you don't want the temples EXTREME age to have a factor in this it does.

KJA's implications:

No. If he didn't put it in his short story its speculation and I WILL NOT accept it in this debate, simple as that. I could care less if he implies Bane could make the universe implode if he wanted too, I wont take it as fact unitl its in a story. End of discussion

Anakin being on the level of the best:

"he attained a level of perfection for each form of lightsabe, pretty damn close to the degree that Yoda or Dooku had with their respective
forms."

You didn't say Mace you said Dooku, And again Im not kidding Anakin focusing his rage is match for the PT top 4 Sidious, Mace, Yoda and Dooku. I can't stress enough the fact that he BEAT DOOKU IN 8 F*CKING SECONDS! That alone is more impressive then ANYTHING Bane has done, Anakin was a monster, he made all of Dooku's expansive saber knowledge, force knowledge into a actual joke, the authors words not mine. Anakin focusing his rage would RAPE Bane, Kas'im and would even be a match for Yoda and Sidious (They'd probably win)

Maul:

Did I EVER say Maul has mastered every form? No. I said he was mastered more because well Bane hasn't mastered anything, he is a Djem So adept with a uber force connection. I SAID Bane had a stronger connection the Maul. But based on his movements in TMP and Banes "two heartbeats" speed Im doubting Bane is that much faster then him and considering the one Vader fought was created from the pure darkside, and had all Mauls knowledge of martial and saber forms, he most likely was better then TMP form. That said, Vader has dealt with that kind of speed Bane has before and you know, matched it and won...

Banes stupid blast:

It was STILL stupid no matter how you slice it, and considering the attack failed and the ONLY reason he won was because of the temple (something he didn't plan) Had Kas'im taken four steps forward and gave his speech, Bane would have died on Lehon.

BTW I HATE the dancing Banana!!!

OK, just a few things to say, being as this thread makes my head hurt with all the blatant fanboyKas'im, I mean fanboyism...

First off, I remember when Styles first got here we disagreed on something, then to the best of knowledge, we squashed it, with no hard feelings, at least on my part. I do not remember making him look silly or calling him out on anything inparticular. If i did, refresh my memory.
However, don't try to "redirect" (since you like that shit so much), the focus of your ridiculous assertions and anti-Vader bias, on to me. AC is continuously handing you your ass, and that was a vain attempt to pull me into the shit cause you cant handle actual debating.

Secondly, as far as Anakin/Vader not being the one, GL states, "Anakin is the chosen one, then he joins the darkside and he's still the chosen one, as he fulfils the prophecy and gets rid of the Sith."

That's basically word for word, if it's off, by all means someone correct it, but the point I KNOW is correct, is when he says, "he joins the darkside and he's still the chosen one." So you can take the nadds out of you mouth and accept the truth, as painful as it is, that you don't make ANY decisions as far as SW is considered and your opinion means less thimble full of shit.

Now, as far as the topic, Bane is incredibly powerful, and is faster than Vader, but Vader takes this, however not easily. The speed is only a slight factor at most. No one knows the extent to Vader's mastery of all the forms, but to have the knowledge to be able to incorporate all of them into one customized style says something about his skill and prowess.

It seems all you like saying is "Vader is a slow piece of crap." like you of all people saying that, makes it so or makes any of us change our minds. If Vader sucked so badly, he wouldn't have survived as long as he did to the point where the only could kill him, was himself, which is also a nod to him being the chosen one. He could have force pulled Luke's saber to him and cit Sidious in half, but that wouldn't have killed him as well. So he picks him up, sacrifices himself and kills Palps, thusly fulfilling the prophecy. Look it up.

You can come up with all the excuses you want, but the fact is, in the the big picture, Vader is one big ass weak shit. I'm actually pretty confident I would beat Vader in a swordfight.

lol big ass weak shit my ass, he fought so many opponents and yet the only one who could kill him was himself.

He used a waterfall to drown his enemy for gods sake

Face it, Vader sucks, so unlucky, but the OT produced one whack swordsman.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Face it, Vader sucks, so unlucky, but the OT produced one whack swordsman.

Yes i so agree vader is a wack swordsman, mmm mmm i agree

Vader killed dozens of jedis and his enemies with that "flimsy style" for the past 19 years, mmm mmm impressive

Do you really think that matters when we see just exactly how whack he is in the movies. He's slow, unagile, clumsy, his precision sucks, he's just generally unskilled.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Do you really think that matters when we see just exactly how whack he is in the movies. He's slow, unagile, clumsy, his precision sucks, he's just generally unskilled.
Do you think DE matters because we see boba die in ROTJ? "True form of canon" what.

Its a "contradiction" right?

Why do you persist in bringing this point up? The argument has only been corrected like a gazillion times. Now we only see Boba fall into the Sarlacc, we don't see him die, it's further explained how he escapes in his series of novels, there's no contradiction.



That's great, he still sucks, as shown by the OT.

Yes we did, jabba confirmed to all those who fell into the pit die and we saw boba die falling in there so we assume he dies.

We also assume vader is slow because "he is unskilled" so called

And how was it explained boba survived? EU
and how did we see vader fast? EU

1. Didn't realise that Jabba was omniscient. Who would have guessed?
2. Key word = assume. The EU shows that our assumption was wrong.
3. Why do you consider to bring this point up? You know you're wrong, Advent completely owned you last time the topic came up, and you conceded your argument.



What you don't seem to get is with the whole Boba, there is no contradiction, however, anything in the EU showing Vader to be fast contradicts the highest form of canon, and so is rendered invalid.

Go away, you've been owned some many times in this ONE thread its sad, your like a parrot you keep repeating the same shit, and it only serves to annoy us all. You wonder why your not taken seriously...your a joke.