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I know that the most powerful villain in X-Men could be Dark Phoenix or Apocalpyse, but I don't know how to compare it. Maybe I 'll stay with Dark Phoenix. And how about you ?

Onslaught trumps both of them.

I don't think Onslaught would trump Phoenix

Dark Phoenix is probably the most dangerous/strongest. Due to the complete lack of hesitation in just killing everything and everyone around "her". Where as with villians like Magneto or Apocalpyse it is not often that they just cut loose without certain vested interests.

It's not interesting to argue about omega level villains, the best discussion would be amoung level 3 and level 4 mutants

Originally posted by argesilen
It's not interesting to argue about omega level villains, the best discussion would be amoung level 3 and level 4 mutants Na, because then you get into psychics

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Onslaught trumps both of them.

Onslaught was an amalgamation of Prof X and Magneto, Dark Phoenix was a manifestation of the life force of the universe. Theres no comparison.

If Onslaught counts, then the top five are(not in order, of course).....

Onslaught
Dark Pheonix
Apocolypse
Juggernaut(6th Day)
Magneto

Originally posted by Noa
Dark Phoenix is probably the most dangerous/strongest. Due to the complete lack of hesitation in just killing everything and everyone around "her". Where as with villians like Magneto or Apocalpyse it is not often that they just cut loose without certain vested interests.

Ya, I agree with that.

As for Apocalypse being one of the most powerful, not even close. Magneto fought him one on one in the comics and Apocalypse was completely slaughtered.

Dark Pheonix

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Onslaught trumps both of them. little hard for Onslaught to function when the whole planet is blown away under his butt. that's just a mild demostration of the power of Dark Phoenix. That's about realistic as comparing Galactus to a fly. Dark Phoenix all the way.

Cerebro was also hard to defeat as well as David Haller

I know that she is nowhere near the strongest villain, but Spiral was pretty powerful. She was able to cancel powers momentarily, her mind was immune to possession, conquer an alternate Earth ( Shatterstar graphic novel ), etc.

Originally posted by sapphiremouse
little hard for Onslaught to function when the whole planet is blown away under his butt. that's just a mild demostration of the power of Dark Phoenix. That's about realistic as comparing Galactus to a fly. Dark Phoenix all the way.

While I agree that theres no comparison, DP would win. I dont think it matters if she blows up the planet, having Magnetos powers means Onslaught could build himself an asteroid from the planets remains If he had to but Onslaughts true form being energy I think he'll survive without a corporal body.

* Magneto can be a very strong villain, and also Mr. Sinister... battling Omega Red or Juggernaut is also nice since because when these villains sprout, their teamwork always stands-out...

Phoenix would be the most powerful I think, despite Xmen 3's choice to make her weaker than Wolverine.

Originally posted by Claude_Rains
Phoenix would be the most powerful I think, despite Xmen 3's choice to make her weaker than Wolverine.

If you're referring to X-Men: the Last Stand she wasn't weaker than Wolverine. Hell, Callisto confirms that Jean is "more powerful" than Magneto himself, and it's a recurring theme in the movies that Magneto has a friggen field day with beating the shit out of Wolverine.

She also put Juggernaut, Storm, Callisto and Wolverine on their asses - as well as Magneto - while simultaneously levitating a house and disintigrating the most powerful telepath on the planet (Xavier).

Simply because he beat her doesn't mean he's stronger. His healing factor simply gave him an advantage, but he is a speck compared to her, power-wise.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Onslaught was an amalgamation of Prof X and Magneto, Dark Phoenix was a manifestation of the life force of the universe. Theres no comparison.

Onslaught, he crushed the phoenix in his hand once. Onslaught at the height of his power could stand up to Dark Phoenix easily. And keep in mind if your going by villain then only "Dark" Phoenix counts.

And yes X3 did a horrible job where Dark Phoenix was concern.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Onslaught, he crushed the phoenix in his hand once. Onslaught at the height of his power could stand up to Dark Phoenix easily. And keep in mind if your going by villain then only "Dark" Phoenix counts.

And yes X3 did a horrible job where Dark Phoenix was concern.

Onslaught did not crush the Phoenix in his hands, he summoned the Phoenix imagery to remind Jean of the power she once wielded, he was trying to seduce her because Xaiver was smitten with her, onslaught being the twisted version of xavier wanted to make her his bride, he was also interested in her being a template for something so powerful because he was preparing himself for god-hood. It was well known in those days that there was no trace of the phoenix force in jean when that happened. it was all astral plane trickery. remember this was the second time onslaught had appeared to jean, if xaiver knew that jean was omega level than you bet your ass onslaught knew. he was more interested in her than anybody else, but she challenged him at every turn, so his next best choice a naive toddler who can warp reality, his initial interest in xman stemmed from him being curious about AOA and a world run by mutants, he was pissed at what he saw and decided to keep nate. Considering that only dark phoenix counts, onslaught at the height of his power would have been eaten since his true form is just a mass of sentient psionic energy, psionic energy which by the way comes from the phoenix, dark or not since she is the nexus of all psionic energy that was, is and will be.

1) Yes she did have the phoenix with her at that time. Did you forget that issue in Alaska before that where Scott found her in the snow and it had melted into a phoenix image around her?

2) I meant Onslaught when he had access to Franklin and Nate Grey's powers.

3)The White Crown Phoenix is the nexus, not Dark Phoenix.

Originally posted by Starhawk
1) Yes she did have the phoenix with her at that time. Did you forget that issue in Alaska before that where Scott found her in the snow and it had melted into a phoenix image around her?

2) I meant Onslaught when he had access to Franklin and Nate Grey's powers.

3)The White Crown Phoenix is the nexus, not Dark Phoenix.

1) That happened WAAAAAAY after Onslaught so referring to it is useless to your argument.

2) Onslaught with all of that added power still wouldnt have been a match for the Phoenix. Dark Phoenix has eaten universes in What Ifs and in this one eaten stars and been stated to be a far more significant threat than Galactus.

3) The Phoenix Force itself is the nexus and all avatars of the Phoenix whatever their incarnation would be able to tap into this power.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
1) That happened WAAAAAAY after Onslaught so referring to it is useless to your argument.

2) Onslaught with all of that added power still wouldnt have been a match for the Phoenix. Dark Phoenix has eaten universes in What Ifs and in this one eaten stars and been stated to be a far more significant threat than Galactus.

3) The Phoenix Force itself is the nexus and all avatars of the Phoenix whatever their incarnation would be able to tap into this power.

1) I suggest you check on that.

2)What if's are not cannon nor acceptable as proof. It took way more to stop Onslaught then Dark Phoenix.

3) No she has to become White Crown form to use those powers, Dark Phoenix has never shown the ability to tap into White Crown Phoenix's powers.

Toad.

Originally posted by ThePittman
Na, because then you get into psychics

Na, just a little more imagination

Originally posted by Starhawk
1) I suggest you check on that.

2)What if's are not cannon nor acceptable as proof. It took way more to stop Onslaught then Dark Phoenix.

3) No she has to become White Crown form to use those powers, Dark Phoenix has never shown the ability to tap into White Crown Phoenix's powers.

1)The stuff in Alaska was after OZT, and it was being hinted that Jean was naturally progressing to the same power levels as Phoenix, but was quickly forgotten after the psi-wave and not brought up again until revolution.
2) It took the combined powers of the xmen present to destroy Onslaught, after the avengers weakened him by running into his formless energy mass state, which he stated was his ultimate form. Most of the Xmen present had already gone up against dark phoenix and never once got close to defeating her, actually the only person who stopped dark phoenix was dark phoenix.
3)the Phoenix being the nexus to all psi energy was established well before the WC stuff, The Phoenix has different incarnations but each one draws it's power from the same source.. She doesn't even have to become white phoenix to do phoenix work, because it has been suggested that dark phoenix destroyed the d'bari star system performing phoenix work, not out of sheer hunger which i think would have been a metaphorical hunger for destruction anyway. WC is the the part of Phoenix that is neither good or evil and cannot be swayed or corrupted by human emotions making it a pure entity (white has been associated with purity for ages), that in my opinion is the only distinction between WCP and DP, the power fluctuates with what the Phoenix needs to do not what form it's in. Dark Phoenix is the part of Phoenix that is ready to burn away everything, why? because.

Each version of the Phoenix has a different level of power and what they can do.

It took pretty much all the heroes of earth to stop Onslaught, Dark Phoenix has been stopped by Xavier in a psi-battle, vaporized by a turret on the moon, stopped by the x-men when it was inhabiting Maddie Pryor, Xorneto gave it a stroke and killed it. LOL The teen titans and x-men stopped it. LOL etc etc.

I'm aware that each version of the Phoenix had different power levels I was addressing the fact that no matter the incarnation the power regardless of the level comes from the same source.
Xavier had Jeans (in those day Phoenix) help and he did not defeat the Phoenix he suppressed it. She activated the gun on the moon obviously making herself vulnerable because she was shrugging off any other energy based attacks on her before that and she plunged into the heart of a star with no ill effects save destroying the star and it's surrounding planets. As far as them stopping Maddie, I don't remember it that way, she killed herself too, and it was the Phoenix Force that ended the chaos that was Inferno. That wasn't dark phoenix Xorn killed it was a newly reborn Jean Grey who had to die anyway because she needed to incubate in the white hot room to wake up 150 years in the future, she told Wolverine on the asteroid that she didn't know how long the Phoenix would let her stay.
Anything regarding the teen titans is not cannon as you pointed out the same thing about what ifs.

Well I'm a bit biased, but starhawk does bring up some pretty good points so i'm gonna go with Onslaught!

Which points were good again? I must have missed it. The strongest villain the X-men have ever faced would have to be the one they had no chance of beating or even stalemating. Onslaught for all his power was not only defeated but utterly destroyed never to be heard from again, until recently due to the machinations of Scarlet Witch. The X-men never even got close to besting the Dark Phoenix, she killed herself, so unless we're counting Jean Greys consciousness being the reason DP committed suicide then no X-man has ever beat DP. Highest feat for Onslaught was createing a sun, DP eats those.

It took pretty much all the heroes of earth to stop Onslaught, And all they managed to do was seperate his energy amoung all of them. Dark Phoenix has been stopped by Xavier in a psi-battle, vaporized by a turret on the moon, stopped by the x-men when it was inhabiting Maddie Pryor, Xorneto gave it a stroke and killed it. LOL The teen titans and x-men stopped it. LOL etc etc.

They seperated his energy and the X-men "killed" them by concentrating all their attacks on his energy mass that was still very much present after they ran into it. Xavier had Jeans (in those day Phoenix) help and he did not defeat the Phoenix he suppressed it. She activated the gun on the moon obviously making herself vulnerable because she was shrugging off any other energy based attacks on her before that and she plunged into the heart of a star with no ill effects save destroying the star and it's surrounding planets. As far as them stopping Maddie, I don't remember it that way, she killed herself too, and it was the Phoenix Force that ended the chaos that was Inferno. That wasn't dark phoenix Xorn killed it was a newly reborn Jean Grey who had to die anyway because she needed to incubate in the white hot room to wake up 150 years in the future, she told Wolverine on the asteroid that she didn't know how long the Phoenix would let her stay.
Anything regarding the teen titans is not cannon as you pointed out the same thing about what ifs.

With all the X-men, the Imperial Guard, a shi'ar warship and a Kree weapon, the only thing that stopped DP was the Kree weapon that she activated to kill herself, and then she didn't even die she was purified and went back to Jeans body in the cocoon.

I meant when Maddie first manifested the phoenix, not "Inferno" The Ultraverse WAS canon and they stopped her fairly easily. Now Xavier AND Magneto have stopped her before, Onslaught is them combined. Also with access to franklin and Nate Grey's powers he would stomp her easily. Nate Grey had the same power output and signature as Dark Phoenix.

Maddie never manifested any power until the demons of Limbo helped her unlocked her latent power. The part of the Phoenix that she did have was the part that Phoenix took from Jean along with it's memories as the first phoenix and Dp, to give her a lifeforce and an instant attraction to Scott, since Sinister had given up on her for displaying no powers. Magneto NEVER stopped her and Xavier locked her up with the help of Jean as soon as Scott was badly hurt Jean let go and the Xavier's circuit breakers were destroyed and that was like all in the same day. I find it funny when someone else mentioned a different version of Phoenix to illustrate her power, you were the one who said if we're going by villains than only Dark Phoenix counts. Nate Greys power levels were compared to the Phoenix by Moira when she tested him on Muir Island, when she tested Phoenix, she said that Jean was off the charts and she still had room to burn brighter, but Moira told her to power down that it was enough for now. Nate was compared to Phoenix because he too was off the charts, meaning there was no way to fully gauge either of their full powers so she compared Nate to the only other being she tested that was off the charts. Also when Moira told Jean to power down Jean/Phoenix said she could keep going, Moira made a mental note the her powers grew geometrically with each use, while everybody knew that Nate Grey had no room to grow and that his maximum output would have killed him and half the planet.

um dark pheniox would kill onslaught with, but a mere thought.......

Originally posted by LordKaos


The point is she has been beaten before with greater ease then Onslaught and I consider what Magneto and Xavier did, defeating her.

Also in the Ultraverse she was beaten by blasts from a starship.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Onslaught, he crushed the phoenix in his hand once. Onslaught at the height of his power could stand up to Dark Phoenix easily. And keep in mind if your going by villain then only "Dark" Phoenix counts.

And yes X3 did a horrible job where Dark Phoenix was concern.

This is funny,obviously you did not read the comic,but went off a scan that a phoenix hater used to put down the phoenix,just like your reference to the ultraverse..so disapointing

Dark phoenix would beat onslaught 10/10

I liked the Onslaught saga and think he's a cool villian,but hes nowhere near Dark Phoenix level

Originally posted by starlock
This is funny,obviously you did not read the comic,but went off a scan that a phoenix hater used to put down the phoenix,just like your reference to the ultraverse..so disapointing

Dark phoenix would beat onslaught 10/10

I liked the Onslaught saga and think he's a cool villian,but hes nowhere near Dark Phoenix level

Yes I have read every appearance of the Phoenix, be it normal, white crown or dark.

Onslaught at full power could take Dark Phoenix.

* please explain how...

Him crushing it in his hand wasn't enough for you?

I think Magneto is the best and strongest villain!jm

Originally posted by Starhawk
Him crushing it in his hand wasn't enough for you?

That was an astral image. A mental representation and nothing more. It wasnt the Phoenix Force, it wasnt Jean serving as a Phoenix host. It was standard Jean Grey mentally representing herself through the firebird image and getting defeated by Xavier. Thats no biggie. We all know Xavier had greater telepathy than a Phoenixless Jean Grey.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That was an astral image. A mental representation and nothing more. It wasnt the Phoenix Force, it wasnt Jean serving as a Phoenix host. It was standard Jean Grey mentally representing herself through the firebird image and getting defeated by Xavier. Thats no biggie. We all know Xavier had greater telepathy than a Phoenixless Jean Grey.

No it wasn't, please provide a scan where it says that.

Originally posted by Starhawk
No it wasn't, please provide a scan where it says that.

Jean lost the remnants of the Phoenix Force from the Phoenix Saga in X-factor #50 in 1990:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112374085.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112374140.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112374159.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112374229.jpg

The Onslaught Saga occurred in 1996.

In Uncanny X-men in issues 354 and 355 Jean took on the name of Phoenix again and started manifesting her power as a bird like signature, however as stated, this was just in recognition to her history and was her way of signalling that she was no longer scared to explore her full potential.

Uncanny x-men 354
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112001555.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112001833.jpg

Uncanny x-men 355

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112044086.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112044163.jpg

She was Phoenix only in name and costume at this point in time not a host as stated. Even if she had indeed become a host it was still YEARS AFTER the Onslaught Saga.(The scans even refers to the Onslaught Saga)

That’s sufficient evidence to quash your perspective as it is, however allow me to enlighten you as to the first official return of the Phoenix Force in Jean Grey since her X-factor days:


New X-men 120:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112214478.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112214514.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112214565.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112214614.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112214671.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112214722.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112214770.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112214875.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/5/12112214860.jpg

New X-men 128

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553826.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553853.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553864.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553949.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553982.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/9/25812553924.jpg

For further information check out Jeans last bio in the official handbooks and if you miraculously happen to find any mention of Jean wielding the Force again prior to New X-men then please don’t hesitate to let us all know, by posting some scans of the relevant issue.

Good day to you.

You still have yet to show me a scan from the issue where onslaught crushes it that states it's not the actual force itself. That's the only proof that matters, all else is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Starhawk
You still have yet to show me a scan from the issue where onslaught crushes it that states it's not the actual force itself. That's the only proof that matters, all else is irrelevant.

Nope. It is canon as stated on panel and in bios that Jean lost the Phoenix Force in that X-factor issue back in 1990. It is canon as i have shown that she did not receive the Phoenix Force again until a few years back in 2002. With that in mind your argument is redundant. You ASSUMED that it was the actual Phoenix Force despite:

a) The fact that Jean wasnt a host at that point (having lost the power many years before) and wasnt a host by by canon until 6 years later

b) They were in the astral plane and as such they could visuakize anything they could think of, anythig they wanted

With all that in mind you were totally unjustified to think that was the Phoenix Force and given what is stated on panel and in the official bios you are 100% conclusively incorrect on this point.

I have shown you scans showing that Jean wasnt Phoenix at the point. I have told you to go to OFFICIAL bios illustrating the point, you have nothing but your opinion on whats going on in that scene to come back at me with. Thats simply not good enough.

No i have what happened in that comic, Youa re the one who has to prove that it was not the Phoenix Force in that issue.

Originally posted by Starhawk
No i have what happened in that comic, Youa re the one who has to prove that it was not the Phoenix Force in that issue.

I have. Ive showed you on panel instances stating that Jean lost the Phoenix Force powers BEFORE that Onslaught issue and ive shown issues stating she didnt have them again till years AFTER that issue.

Ive also directed you to OFFICIAL bios supporting that point.

You have come back at me with nothing but your opinion. "No i know what happened in the comic, it was Phoenix"

In light of what ive come up with thats really not good enough. Come up with some scans stating or demonstrating that that was the actual Phoenix Force as opposed to an astral representation a visualization, and then you can have the point. Until then you've lost and we both know it.

GS.. you're trying to convince someone who maintains that Starhawk, the character entered and manipulated the White Hot Room in the mid 90s, and that this puts him on par with Phoenix Jean Grey and that therefore he is an Omega mutant.

This is despite being shown scans that it was the White Room - a place where Protectors of the Universe, such as Quasar, go when they die, not the White Hot Room, that he only entered it because he had the Quantum bands, never "manipulated" the White Room, and only managed to break out of it because his power wasn't solely from the Quantum bands... And foremost despite that he was never labeled an Omega mutant...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
GS.. you're trying to convince someone who maintains that Starhawk, the character entered and manipulated the White Hot Room in the mid 90s, and that this puts him on par with Phoenix Jean Grey and that therefore he is an Omega mutant.

This is despite being shown scans that it was the White Room - a place where Protectors of the Universe, such as Quasar, go when they die, not the White Hot Room, that he only entered it because he had the Quantum bands, never "manipulated" the White Room, and only managed to break out of it because his power wasn't solely from the Quantum bands... And foremost despite that he was never labeled an Omega mutant...

Seems like im wasting my time then! Lol

Cassandra Nova
Legion

In the comic, Onslaught offers to reunite jean with the Phoenix if she will serve him, when she says no, he crushes it.

And he would smash Legion or Cassandra Nova.

Originally posted by Starhawk
In the comic, Onslaught offers to reunite jean with the Phoenix if she will serve him, when she says no, he crushes it.

And he would smash Legion or Cassandra Nova.

He does offer to reunite her with the Phoenix Force and as he does so a visualization is presented to illustrate his offer. It was a visual aid to help him tempt Jean to his side. Nowhere is it stated or depicted that that is anything but an astral representation:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340067.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340070.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340025.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340031.jpg


Your mistake is in not taking into consideration, the fact that they were in the astral plane and therefore it was possible it was just a visualization

Your mistake was not acknowledging continuity that tells us that was not the Phoenix Force because Jean didnt have anything to do with it since she lost it in X-factor 65 and regained her host status in New X-men 120.

Go to Jean Greys bio, or go to the Phoenix Forces bio and please point out a reference to the Phoenix Force being crushed in Onslaughts hand.

Please find me a scan stating or demonstrating that that was the actual Phoenix Force and not a visualization presented by Onsluaght as a visual aid for his offer.

You wont find one.

Why?

Visualization.


Continuity contradicts you, on panel accounts provide you with no support. Youre on your own.

Legion caused the most trouble <3

i missed the whole legion thing - didn't he lead to AoA or something by killing his dad by accident? in that case he caused a LOT of havok to say the least.

GS, you have no proof that it was not the real Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Starhawk
GS, you have no proof that it was not the real Phoenix Force.

Can you stop going on at each other its pushing other people out of the whole convo. if you want to fight so much make a thread where you do that alone.




(p.s. Theres no proof Onslaught can beat DP, plus where he "crushed" the phoenix force Jean Grey wasn't using it - look at the scans properly for once).

Originally posted by magnuslives
i missed the whole legion thing - didn't he lead to AoA or something by killing his dad by accident? in that case he caused a LOT of havok to say the least.

Yup, he traveled back in time and killed Xavier on accident. He used some sort of psychic knife, one that would put Betsy's to shame.

Legion led to the destruction of the original 616 timeline. The current one is different and has been slightly altered, since Bishop traveled back in time and stopped Legion. So technically Legion killed every being in the 616 universe.

Cassandra Nova is responsible for the death of 16 million mutants and near fall of the shi'ar empire.

Onslaught killed a couple of heroes that were resurrected a while later. That doesn't compare with anything CN and Legion did.

She also outed Xavier to the world. Regardless of whether she was the strongest villain Cassandra Nova was an awesome villain.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
She also outed Xavier to the world. Regardless of whether she was the strongest villain Cassandra Nova was an awesome villain.

She also had a great impact on many x-men. For example Cyclops, after sending him to his bug room.

Dark Phoenix is the strongest, but for me much interesting is Magneto, and with any doubt I would pick Magneto's powers over Jean's, they have some personal mark, Phoenix powers are too omnipotent and non-personal...if you know what i mean...

Originally posted by argesilen
Dark Phoenix is the strongest, but for me much interesting is Magneto, and with any doubt I would pick Magneto's powers over Jean's, they have some personal mark, Phoenix powers are too omnipotent and non-personal...if you know what i mean...

Phoenix' powers are pretty far away from omnipotent, but yeah she's powerful.

I still think that both Legion and CN caused more destruction than Dark Phoenix. When DP destroyed a planet, it didn't really impact anyone on earth. CN took out Genosha and well Legion destroyed the Marvel Timeline.

Since there are no set standards to what qualifies as omnipotence, I think it's pretty safe to say that an immortal lifeforce of the universe, with virtually unlimited power to manipulate space/time/matter/energy/mind is omnipotent by most mortal standards. Compared to Magneto, especially back then, the Dark Phoenix is Omnipotent.
The thread is not about who is the most destructive it's about who was the strongest, but if it were about destruction, destroying Genosha with the aid of giant robots it noting compared to annihilating an entire star system, she killed like 4,984,000,000 more lifeforms than CN did, what DP did alerted many races to the threat it posed to the universe not just Earth. Any time traveler can go back in time and kill magneto, I think the more interesting parts about AOA was that, the reality was really set for destruction because Jean was never an Xman and never became Phoenix to save everything from M'Kraan.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He does offer to reunite her with the Phoenix Force and as he does so a visualization is presented to illustrate his offer. It was a visual aid to help him tempt Jean to his side. Nowhere is it stated or depicted that that is anything but an astral representation:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340067.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340070.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340025.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340031.jpg


Your mistake is in not taking into consideration, the fact that they were in the astral plane and therefore it was possible it was just a visualization

Your mistake was not acknowledging continuity that tells us that was not the Phoenix Force because Jean didnt have anything to do with it since she lost it in X-factor 65 and regained her host status in New X-men 120.

Go to Jean Greys bio, or go to the Phoenix Forces bio and please point out a reference to the Phoenix Force being crushed in Onslaughts hand.

Please find me a scan stating or demonstrating that that was the actual Phoenix Force and not a visualization presented by Onsluaght as a visual aid for his offer.

You wont find one.

Why?

Visualization.


Continuity contradicts you, on panel accounts provide you with no support. Youre on your own.

No unlike you, I don't make my own interpretations. I go by whats one panel. and on panel he crushed the phoenix. Unless they say it's not the actual force, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Originally posted by Starhawk
No unlike you, I don't make my own interpretations. I go by whats one panel. and on panel he crushed the phoenix. Unless they say it's not the actual force, you don't have a leg to stand on.

You're so far beyond helpless that it's not even funny....

Yeah posting facts isn't necessary when you can just insult someone because they don't agree with you.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Yeah posting facts isn't necessary when you can just insult someone because they don't agree with you.

Galactic Storm provided proof.

You're ignorant.

dur.

No he provided his interpretation. Nothing in that issue says it wasn't the Phoenix Force.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/apoc1gc7.jpg

Originally posted by Starhawk
No he provided his interpretation. Nothing in that issue says it wasn't the Phoenix Force.

Using the same logic, nothing says it is either. he provided more than a interpretation when he posted scans of jean purging herself of left over phoenix power and when he posted scans of jean taking on the phoenix only in name, and finally the scans in which she begins to channel the phoenix power again as a result of her so called secondary mutation. Jean is already at his feet when the smoke clears from him "crushing the phoenix" smoke which is still in his hand, with no imagery of him ripping anything from jean because she wasn't wielding the phoenix, i think you put too much stock in the color of her psi attack she clearly was not using the phoenix it was an image that was either above her or behind, and not in the sense of being behind her because she was in the middle of it, in the sense that it was a part of the background.

No, what we see is him offering to reunite her with the Phoenix Force, thus making it appear. Then when she refuses he crushes it. That's what happens on panel without subjective interpretation.

Apocalypse, Cassandra Nova or Onslaught.

Originally posted by Vinny Valentine
Apocalypse, Cassandra Nova or Onslaught.

All of whom are inferior to the phoenix.

Onslaught crushed the Phoenix Force.

I agree with Vin, it comes down to C Nova or Onslaught.

Originally posted by Soljer
All of whom are inferior to the phoenix.

and the Phoenix did what? Crushed the D'bari planet, big deal. We had like one comic where the last survivor came back to take revenge. The dark phoenix didn't have much of an impact on the x-men as a villain, not compared to Apocalypse, CN, Onslaught or Legion.

Though Dark Phoenix was undoubtedly the strongest.

Putting aside for a second the fact that it was crushed in Onslaughts hand. It took more to take down Onslaught then Dark Phoenix.

The Dark Phoenix had a huge impact on the X-men, because she was of them, up until jean died again the memories of the dark phoenix has haunted the xmen whenever jean got a power upgrade and especially when she began calling herself phoenix again. The Shi'ar have been impacted so much that they eradicated the grey genome just to prevent another Dark Phoenix. Cable said that even in the very distant future people told stories about the dark phoenix to frighten young telepaths. She did not crush D'bari, she ate it's sun a very big difference.
Once they figured out how to defeat Onslaught it took little effort to put him down all they had to do was run into him and attack. NOBODY, took dark phoenix down. She went up against all the Xmen, the imperial guard and the warship of the Shi'ar empress, and all they managed to do was buy the consciousness of jean enough time to "end" her life. and yes lets put aside it being crushed in his hand because it's a ridiculous claim.

Originally posted by LordKaos
The Dark Phoenix had a huge impact on the X-men, because she was of them, up until jean died again the memories of the dark phoenix has haunted the xmen whenever jean got a power upgrade and especially when she began calling herself phoenix again. The Shi'ar have been impacted so much that they eradicated the grey genome just to prevent another Dark Phoenix. Cable said that even in the very distant future people told stories about the dark phoenix to frighten young telepaths. She did not crush D'bari, she ate it's sun a very big difference.
Once they figured out how to defeat Onslaught it took little effort to put him down all they had to do was run into him and attack. NOBODY, took dark phoenix down. She went up against all the Xmen, the imperial guard and the warship of the Shi'ar empress, and all they managed to do was buy the consciousness of jean enough time to "end" her life. and yes lets put aside it being crushed in his hand because it's a ridiculous claim.

What happened in Cable's future, means jack shit. The Shi'ar was impacted? plea puh please.

Onslaught lead to Zero Tolerance, thanks to Onslaught the world didn't have much faith in mutants - impact
Every Avenger died, the ones we have now aren't the original 616 heroes - impact
Uatu came to to earth during the Onslaught Saga. Obviously, big business.

Moira said that X-man and dark Phoenix were equals. Onslaught didn't even have to try in order to defeat x-man. Though Moira might've been wrong.

Cassandra Nova killed 16 million mutants, that was over 95% of the mutant population. After that there was nothing but a couple of mutants left.
She wrecked havok in Lilandra's mind, ending in a divorce between her and Xavier.
She crushed most of the shi'ar empire and killed a good number of Imperial Guardians.
She outed Xavier as a mutant and completely wrecked Beast's confidence.

Let me sum it up for you.

Cassandra nova killed more mutants than Dark Phoenix
Cassandra hurt the Shi'ar more than Dark Phoenix
Cassandra caused more problems for the x-men than Dark Phoenix

Saying what happened in his future means jack shit is the best you could come up with? you said Dp had no impact, i merely let you know that people were still talking about her over a thousand years in the future sounds like an impact to me.
So your saying that the shi'ar came to earth to kill all of the grey line had nothing to do with the Dark Phoenix? how did you put it "plea puh please"

you're OZT reference means jack shit, he was not the cause he was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back

Moira said they were both off the charts, meaning immeasurable, you have no idea who was the strongest, if we both light fires that are hotter than 10,000 degrees but our thermometers only go to 10,000 and it breaks who's to say which fire was hotter?

DP killed 5 billion this a test of strength not impact, you act like Cn killed the mutants she merely unleashed sentinels their job is to kill mutants, and she had to sneak to do it, not nearly as many mutants would have died if they had a heads up. Wrecking havoc in Lilandras mind would be impressive if she had any power to fight back such an attack. She outed Xavier, oh no we better head for the hills. beast seems to be doing better now and his confidence was already ruined considering his mutation causes him to devolve and his girlfriend left him.

Let me sum it up, DP was a threat to every living thing in the universe, CN was tricked by 5 very young telepaths her threat ended even easier than Onslaught once they found out exactly what they were up against.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Saying what happened in his future means jack shit is the best you could come up with? you said Dp had no impact, i merely let you know that people were still talking about her over a thousand years in the future sounds like an impact to me.
So your saying that the shi'ar came to earth to kill all of the grey line had nothing to do with the Dark Phoenix? how did you put it "plea puh please"

you're OZT reference means jack shit, he was not the cause he was the proverbial straw that broke the camels back

Moira said they were both off the charts, meaning immeasurable, you have no idea who was the strongest, if we both light fires that are hotter than 10,000 degrees but our thermometers only go to 10,000 and it breaks who's to say which fire was hotter?

DP killed 5 billion this a test of strength not impact, you act like Cn killed the mutants she merely unleashed sentinels their job is to kill mutants, and she had to sneak to do it, not nearly as many mutants would have died if they had a heads up. Wrecking havoc in Lilandras mind would be impressive if she had any power to fight back such an attack. She outed Xavier, oh no we better head for the hills. beast seems to be doing better now and his confidence was already ruined considering his mutation causes him to devolve and his girlfriend left him.

Let me sum it up, DP was a threat to every living thing in the universe, CN was tricked by 5 very young telepaths her threat ended even easier than Onslaught once they found out exactly what they were up against.

Don't ****ing twist what I'm saying into what you want to hear. Yes, I read the bullshit comics where the Shi'ar come and finish off the Grey family. Boo hoo. I never said that didn't happen.

Did I ever say that Cassandra Nova was stronger than Dark Phoenix? No, I simply said that she caused more damage to the x-men and the mutants on earth. Yes, retard, learn to read. I did never say "Cassandra Nova is more powerful than Dark Phoenix"
I simply said that Cassandra Nova's actions had a bigger impact on Earth and the mutants on Earth than Dark Phoenix did. Cassandra Nova's actions were kept in secret, all they know is that a huge sentinel came and finished off Genosha. Few people know who was behind it.

Given the fact that Dark Phoenix ate up a sun in outer space, that a handful of people on earth have heard about giving her a spot in the history books. They must be full of shit, especially considering you have other big shots out there who have and do pose a bigger threat. Dark Phoenix was more powerful, but she didn't have a bigger impact.

Any proof that Dark Phoenix caused more harm to planet Earth than Cassandra Nova or Onslaught? No? Well then

you brought up the concept of who you made what impact, at first you talked about her making an impact on the xmen, now you want switch to and include all mutants and earth. I never implied you said she was more powerful because that would be ludicrous, more ludicrous than you reading what you want and trying to change this into a who made the biggest impact, or who caused the most destruction when the title of the thread only wants to know who is the strongest, so anything else you mentioned is moot. Retard!

You're absolutely right. 16 million mutants dying didn't have an impact on the x-men at all. Dark Phoenix eating a sun and killing a place they've never seen or been to, affected them so much more.

I never said CN didn't have an impact because it's irrelevant, you are the one who has tried to make the thread about impacts and destruction, and focusing on Dark Phoenix destroying a star system like she didn't do anything else, you imply that no matter what she did it did not have an impact on the X-men or other mutants, the xmen were profoundly impacted by one of their own going insane and trying to destroy everything. When did I say it affected them more? my reason for replying in the first place is that you think because she killed strangers that she had no impact on her lover, best friend, mentor and the rest of the X-men untrue. I pointed out what Cable said about DP in the future because obviously she made some kind of name for herself thousands of years in the future, CN didn't make it to history books as a cautionary tale to frighten young telepaths, you are also implying that I don't think much of what she did, but I'll say again this is about who is the strongest, you agreed it was Phoenix so this should be over.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I never said CN didn't have an impact because it's irrelevant, you are the one who has tried to make the thread about impacts and destruction, and focusing on Dark Phoenix destroying a star system like she didn't do anything else, you imply that no matter what she did it did not have an impact on the X-men or other mutants, the xmen were profoundly impacted by one of their own going insane and trying to destroy everything. When did I say it affected them more? my reason for replying in the first place is that you think because she killed strangers that she had no impact on her lover, best friend, mentor and the rest of the X-men untrue. I pointed out what Cable said about DP in the future because obviously she made some kind of name for herself thousands of years in the future, CN didn't make it to history books as a cautionary tale to frighten young telepaths, you are also implying that I don't think much of what she did, but I'll say again this is about who is the strongest, you agreed it was Phoenix so this should be over.

If you didn't want to prove that Dark Phoenix didn't have more of an impact then CN, then you had no reason for replying at all. Of course everyone knows that the Phoenix had an impact.

For the record, those telepaths must be retards. Phoenix only selects Omega class mutants as its host. Thus why the Shi'Ar shit their pants out of fear when Kid Omega was back.

P.S You don't think 16 million mutants dying would make the history book? Cassandra Nova will never, but the Mummudrai did make the shi'ar records

* Phoenix dwarfs Onslaught... Onslaught really is powerful but not in Phoenix's level... i think the hype was made on Onslaught due to the combined forces of most of the Marvel heroes and because the battle occurred on Earth... while the Phoenix battles occurred on another planet or galaxy, correct me if i'm wrong...

Okay I will, Onslaught crushed Phoenix in his hand.

Well, Onslaught had reality manipulation.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Okay I will, Onslaught crushed Phoenix in his hand.

Nope. Onslaught created a visualization of the Force as a visual aid for his offer to Jean.

Can you show me where in either of these two official bios that the actual Phoenixes presence during that event is referenced?

Phoenix:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_%28Jean_Grey%29

Phoenix Force:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1615592090.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1615592077.jpg

Surely being crushed into nothing within someones hand would warrant a mention in your bio?

Find anything?

Why not?

Visualization.

Originally posted by llagrok
Well, Onslaught had reality manipulation.

Nope. Franklin Richards had reality manipulation. Onslaught had access to those powers while Franklin was in his possession. Without him he has the powers of Magneto and Xavier combined. They are his inherent powers, arguing that he had reality manipulation is like me arguing that Thanos has the inherent power to destroy the universe and defeat the abstracts and LT. Whats the flaw in that thinking? He could do those things only when in possession of an external source, in his case The Heart Of The Infinite. It was not something he could do as standard, not a feature of his inherent powerset.

Onslaught had telepathy and control of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Onslaught created a visualization of the Force as a visual aid for his offer to Jean.

Can you show me where in either of these two official bios that the actual Phoenixes presence during that event is referenced?

Phoenix:

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Phoenix_%28Jean_Grey%29

Phoenix Force:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1615592090.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/1/1615592077.jpg

Surely being crushed into nothing within someones hand would warrant a mention in your bio?

Find anything?

Why not?

Visualization.

I don't think you get it, if I see a bus blow up on TV, I don't have to prove to the person next to me that it was a real bus.

In that issue Onslaught summons the phoenix and offers to restore it to jean, this is in keeping with your scans showing she did not have the power at that time, which is why Onslaught was offering. Jean rejects him and he crushes the Phoenix in anger. There is no on panel proof that it is not the real phoenix force.

Originally posted by Starhawk
I don't think you get it, if I see a bus blow up on TV, I don't have to prove to the person next to me that it was a real bus.

In that issue Onslaught summons the phoenix and offers to restore it to jean, this is in keeping with your scans showing she did not have the power at that time, which is why Onslaught was offering. Jean rejects him and he crushes the Phoenix in anger. There is no on panel proof that it is not the real phoenix force.

Ineffective analogy.

Why?

Your example takes place in the real world where we know we're dealing with actuality. The whole Onslaught and Jean scene took place on the astral plane where ALL you see are mental images conjured up the consciousness' of the living.

Onslaught wanted to show Jean how corrupt Xavier really was, what did she do in response? She visualized a picture of Xaviers head which then split into many sections while Jean and Onslaught flew into the middle where they got an insight into his innermost thoughts represented through mental imagery:

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12912403734.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12912403729.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12912403735.jpg

By your logic Xaviers head got peeled into sections like a banana and on the inside of his head is found not a skull and brain tissue but instead mini versions of him and the people in his life playing out scenes from his past and despite all that Xavier is alive and well to this day

So how do you explain that the SH?

After seeing what she does in Xaviers mind, Jean turns to Onslaught in horror and says "this isnt real, you created this".

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340067.jpg

Why? Because its possible for a telepath to visualize what they want in the astral plane. The astral plane is where all sentient minds in existence are connected and telepaths can navigate through it to locate other minds and to commune with each other and here they can also express their thoughts and desires via mental imagery.

Onslaught tried to recruit Jean by offering her power like she had when she wielded the Phoenix Force. Onslaught then visualized the Phoenix Force as a visual aid to better emphasize his words:


http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340070.jpg

Given that:

a) They are in the astral plane where ALL is mental imagery conjured by the minds of the living

b) Nowhere in continuity, nowhere on panel, nowhere in the bios makes reference to the actual Phoenix Force being crushed by Onslaught(which one would presume to be important enoughh to warrant an entry)

You have no justification whatsoever for presenting the ridiculous argument that the Phoenix Force got crushed by Onslaught.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Onslaught tried to recruit Jean by offering her power like she had when she wielded the Phoenix Force. Onslaught then visualized the Phoenix Force as a visual aid to better emphasize his words:


http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12403340070.jpg



Show me where he says it is only a visualization. Because given that we have on panel evidence, the burden of proof is on you.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Show me where he says it is only a visualization. Because given that we have on panel evidence, the burden of proof is on you.

The burden of proof is on you because on the astral plane all we see is mental imagery conjured by the minds of the sentient.

Nowhere is it stated that that is the Phoenix Force and in light of that first point and the fact nowhere in continuity is that stated to be the Phoenix Force, nowhere in the bios is such an event referenced, once again the burden of proof is on you.

You've lost.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The burden of proof is on you because on the astral plane all we see is mental imagery conjured by the minds of the sentient.

Nowhere is it stated that that is the Phoenix Force and in light of that first point and the fact nowhere in continuity is that stated to be the Phoenix Force, nowhere in the bios is such an event referenced, once again the burden of proof is on you.

You've lost.

No I haven't your argument is based on supposition and opinion, mine is based on what happened in the comic. Facts over opinion.

Originally posted by Starhawk
No I haven't your argument is based on supposition and opinion, mine is based on what happened in the comic. Facts over opinion.

Nope. Mine is based on established points of continuity i.e the astral plane is a place where telepaths can commune and express their thoughts and desires through mental imagery, the Phoenix Force was not posessed by Jean Grey at the time, the actual Phoenix Force wasnt seen on panel again until the New X-men series in the 00's.

Your argument however is based SOLELY on the art and ignores not only established continuity but most importantly the context of the scene i.e where it took place, what was happening at the time.

Thats enough.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Mine is based on established points of continuity i.e the astral plane is a place where telepaths can commune and express their thoughts and desires through mental imagery, the Phoenix Force was not posessed by Jean Grey at the time, the actual Phoenix Force wasnt seen on panel again until the New X-men series in the 00's.

Your argument however is based SOLELY on the art and ignores not only established continuity but most importantly the context of the scene i.e where it took place, what was happening at the time.

Thats enough.

No I go by on panel evidence and not opinion and half guesses like you do.

Originally posted by Starhawk
No I go by on panel evidence and not opinion and half guesses like you do.

On panel evidence involves more than just the art im afraid to tell you, it also involves the captions, the speech and the story going on in said comic. When all of those things are taken into consideration a standalone piece of art can take on an entirely different meaning.

Please understand that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
On panel evidence involves more than just the art im afraid to tell you, it also involves the captions, the speech and the story going on in said comic. When all of those things are taken into consideration a standalone piece of art can take on an entirely different meaning.

Please understand that.

And nowhere in the comics does anyone say that it is not the real Phoenix force. You like the Phoenix allot, I can understand that, but sometimes you have to accept that characters you like will lose battles as well.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. Franklin Richards had reality manipulation. Onslaught had access to those powers while Franklin was in his possession. Without him he has the powers of Magneto and Xavier combined. They are his inherent powers, arguing that he had reality manipulation is like me arguing that Thanos has the inherent power to destroy the universe and defeat the abstracts and LT. Whats the flaw in that thinking? He could do those things only when in possession of an external source, in his case The Heart Of The Infinite. It was not something he could do as standard, not a feature of his inherent powerset.

Onslaught had telepathy and control of the electromagnetic spectrum.

When people say that Onslaught killed all of the avengers and such, they're referring to Onslaught fully powered up with Franklin's powers, aren't they?

That's the one I was referring to.

Yup. He also got a small bit of x-man's power as well.

Onslaught did not kill the Avengers, the X-men did when they attacked his form after the non-mutants and scarlet witch ran into it. Apparently while onslaught was being destroyed franklin subconsciously transported the Avengers into a pocket dimension inside his ball.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12912403734.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12912403729.jpg

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/5/12912403735.jpg

By your logic Xaviers head got peeled into sections like a banana and on the inside of his head is found not a skull and brain tissue but instead mini versions of him and the people in his life playing out scenes from his past and despite all that Xavier is alive and well to this day Oh shit Xavier's dead. Must have been a War Skrull for the past decade or so.

That made no sense what so ever.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Onslaught did not kill the Avengers, the X-men did when they attacked his form after the non-mutants and scarlet witch ran into it. Apparently while onslaught was being destroyed franklin subconsciously transported the Avengers into a pocket dimension inside his ball.

I'm sorry, I thought he recreated them? Because they had no memory of the event whatsoever.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Onslaught trumps both of them.

True, but I normally don't count him since he's a fused being (of Magneto and Xavier).

As far as non-fused beings go however, Apocalypse takes the cake as the most powerful X-Men villain.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
True, but I normally don't count him since he's a fused being (of Magneto and Xavier).

As far as non-fused beings go however, Apocalypse takes the cake as the most powerful X-Men villain.

Well, no.

Apocalypse is powerful, but he's not at the same level as Onslaught or Dark Phoenix.

I'd say Kid Omega is enough for Apocalypse

Originally posted by llagrok
Well, no.

Apocalypse is powerful, but he's not at the same level as Onslaught or Dark Phoenix.

I'd say Kid Omega is enough for Apocalypse

He's definitely not on the same level as Onslaught. I'm not denying that, though like I said, I normally don't count Onslaught because of the fact that he's a fused being.

I have to disagree about Apocalypse not being on the same level as Dark Phoenix, though. While Apocalypse may not be destructive by nature in the same way Dark Phoenix is as to do something like consume an entire star (as if he could, not that he needs to), he still obviously has the potential to be as much of a threat as her (if not a greater threat) in the Marvel universe.

And Kid Omega is in no way "enough" for him, as En Sabah Nur also naturally possesses telepathy & telekinesis, and is also a Genius-level intellect...

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
He's definitely not on the same level as Onslaught. I'm not denying that, though like I said, I normally don't count Onslaught because of the fact that he's a fused being.

I have to disagree about Apocalypse not being on the same level as Dark Phoenix, though. While Apocalypse may not be destructive by nature in the same way Dark Phoenix is as to do something like consume an entire star (as if he could, not that he needs to), he still obviously has the potential to be as much of a threat as her (if not a greater threat) in the Marvel universe.

And Kid Omega is in no way "enough" for him, as En Sabah Nur also naturally possesses telepathy & telekinesis, and is also a Genius-level intellect...

Let me make things clear for you.

KidOmega thinks over a thousand brilliant thoughts a second. His intelligence is far above any characters in Marvel universe. Emma stated that you could even compare him to normal geniuses. He also reanimated Sophie's corpse, which I have yet to see any telekinetic do.

Although Apocalypse's experience and versatility makes him a better fighter than Kid Omega and such. KidOmega has much more raw power. Give him 20 years and he'd be one of the stronger Marvel characters and the new Phoenix.

P.S Good to see another Apoc fan here. He's underestimated

Originally posted by llagrok
Let me make things clear for you.

KidOmega thinks over a thousand brilliant thoughts a second. His intelligence is far above any characters in Marvel universe. Emma stated that you could even compare him to normal geniuses. He also reanimated Sophie's corpse, which I have yet to see any telekinetic do.

Although Apocalypse's experience and versatility makes him a better fighter than Kid Omega and such. KidOmega has much more raw power. Give him 20 years and he'd be one of the stronger Marvel characters and the new Phoenix.

P.S Good to see another Apoc fan here. He's underestimated

Heh. I noticed. >.> It would seem that I underestimated Kid Omega though ;_;, but I see your point now about him. I didn't know that he reanimated Sophie's corpse...

he reanimated Sophie using power he borrowed from the phoenix, he would not be the new phoenix, if jean is the avatar then she is essentially immortal and would not need a replacement, he would become a phoenix, not the phoenix well not white crown anyway.

Originally posted by LordKaos
he reanimated Sophie using power he borrowed from the phoenix, he would not be the new phoenix, if jean is the avatar then she is essentially immortal and would not need a replacement, he would become a phoenix, not the phoenix well not white crown anyway.

Get with the program. Phoenix changes hosts and Kid Omega was the most likely one to get picked, thus why the Shi'ar were dead afraid.

KO still has his powers, he just didn't feel like fightin' anymore.

Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Heh. I noticed. >.> It would seem that I underestimated Kid Omega though ;_;, but I see your point now about him. I didn't know that he reanimated Sophie's corpse...

If you put them two of them in an Arena and said "fight" then Apocalypse would win. However, if you give Kid Omega a reason to fight and 10 more years, he'd win.

Originally posted by llagrok
Get with the program. Phoenix changes hosts and Kid Omega was the most likely one to get picked, thus why the Shi'ar were dead afraid.

KO still has his powers, he just didn't feel like fightin' anymore.

I am with the program, that's why i said he'd become a phoenix not the phoenix, if he was the most likely to be picked then why did the phoenix possessed firefly pass over him? it was looking for it's avatar, jean that's why. In endsong the fraction of the phoenix was confused and looking for a piece of itself not a host. the shi'ar believed he would be picked because of his omega mutant status, they obviously had no idea that the phoenix was coming to resurrect it's old body all they knew was that it retreated to earth where it would most likely possess an omega. If he were an avatar then the phoenix would have gone to him in warsong, since hosts fight the phoenix and an avatar would just let it do it's work after connecting with the consciousness. he was never there to fight, he was there to claim the power of the phoenix for himself so that he could fully resurrect Sophie, she was disgusted and both he and her choose to go back to wherever it was they were before the phoenix came to earth.
what powers do you speak of besides him being an omega level telepath? he never showed signs of any telekinesis until after the firefly made contact with him, and any telekinetic can reanimate a corpse he needed the phoenix to give her corpse life. him having tk not granted by the phoenix is just like back in the day when xavier could psi blasts robots into the ocean, a mistake.

I read the comics yes, there's no need to give me a summary

I also know that he couldn't grant Sophie life without the phoenix force, which it's not supposed to able to anyways. However, he still recreated her body, that's telekinesis on a molecular level.

Beast was partially able to resist Cassandra Nova's telepathy. He didn't have a shot at resisting Kid Omega's. I know he wasn't shown as a telekinetic until he had gotten some "aid" from the phoenix force. However, I still think it's possible that he might be one.

I don't know many cases where the Phoenix has granted some extra abilities. It might have though, I can't think of anyone right now.

the only instances i can think of is when it took over Emma it gave her body the ability to absorb Scotts optic blast, and when it took over Celeste she had vast power to at least manipulate energy and time, it didn't really give Rachel her time travelling ability but it amped it up high enough to go from astral to physical, and then that guy who Rachel is sleeping with, the avian shi'ar as far as we know don't have innate powers but the Phoenix possessed his ancestor and a sword for that matter. then there's that guy Giraud? I'm not sure if he had powers before the phoenix made him a host. or maybe you were talking about beings possessed by the phoenix and still exhibiting power they didn't have before, after the phoenix left, i guess that's where the sword comes in as it still has some residual phoenix power left in it.

Can't amp up nothing

Phoenix' appearance in Endsong, not so sure about that. Phoenix isn't supposed to grant life.

Phoenix sword? I don't buy it. The recent uncanny x-men comics have been a complete load. Some guy suddenly appearing with a big blue sword and then sleeping with Rachel an hour later on.

Excuse me for not trusting this Korvus guy and his information

I agree 100% about Korvus and the blade of the phoenix crap, but the phoenix has said over and over it is life and fire and all that good stuff, it being the resurrection force leads me to believe that it can grant life most cosmic beings can resurrect the dead, shit even odin can.

Originally posted by LordKaos
I agree 100% about Korvus and the blade of the phoenix crap, but the phoenix has said over and over it is life and fire and all that good stuff, it being the resurrection force leads me to believe that it can grant life most cosmic beings can resurrect the dead, shit even odin can.

Good point

Resurrection is teh shizzle.

Onslaught recently pulled off that little trick too.

Phoenix VS Apocalpyse

Those two should meet and who will be the most powerful mutant.
If they make X Men 4. They should bring back Phoenix and she should use her rebirth flames to revives Professor X and the others that Dark Phoenix kill in the x men 3. White Phoenix and Apocalpyse are both powerful mutants and I never seen those two go at it in all the xmen series that I watched. One more thing Wolverine should not take all the major roles anymore because I sick of him already.

Garrison Kane- he can use all mutant powers that are on earth or ever been on earth. face to face with the phoenix all he have to do is use leech powers to cancel out hers and then use mister m to disenegrate her. and another is scarlet witch during the house of m when she could control her reality warping powers. she can make phoenix not be there anymore.

Originally posted by Mxyzptlk742
Garrison Kane- he can use all mutant powers that are on earth or ever been on earth. face to face with the phoenix all he have to do is use leech powers to cancel out hers and then use mister m to disenegrate her. and another is scarlet witch during the house of m when she could control her reality warping powers. she can make phoenix not be there anymore.

He couldn't use technokinesis.

Reality warping power/Psionic powers are far too much for someone unexperienced to take on. Which was stated by Sinister later on in the Weapon X series. Nor was this guy a proper villain, he was a turncoat

Leech cancel the Phoenix laughinglol1laughing. It's real strange that HoM happened right after Endsong, Jean would have been a threat to all the dumb shit that went on they had to make sure there was no Phoenix around, she would have burned it all away.

The Phoenix force isn't a mutation, so I'd like to see him cancel that xD

probably apocalypse

naturally i would say dark pheonix but due to bad writing, Onslaught was more of a threat

i think there are many strongest villain but they cant defeat wolverine.......

Originally posted by hunter_blake05
i think there are many strongest villain but they cant defeat wolverine.......

Yeah his adamantium claws of doom will be the end of the multiverse.

Juggernaut, he could lift over 100 tons

it annoys me cuz technically there is never a strongest, depending on which storyline somehow they always get beat.

Dark phoenix all cosmic power and she kills herself?
Apocalypse, the longest living mutant and he gets pulled from his host?
Magneto, the worlds master of magnetism (sp?) and he gets beat at every corner.

i mean its so ridiculous, why cant they have one bad guy who they cant beat... wud be so much more exciting.

They couldn't beat Dark Phoenix, she beat herself (suicide).

spiral was pretty powerful

Originally posted by LordKaos
They couldn't beat Dark Phoenix, she beat herself (suicide).

That's what he said...

Originally posted by Hannibal-Lector
naturally i would say dark pheonix but due to bad writing, Onslaught was more of a threat

But Onslaught was written properly? Someone with planetary scale reality warping shouldn't lose to the Avengers. 'nuff said.

(, don't suppose there's a forum for most fun or interesting villain? Sorry, but you can only unmake my reality so many ways, before I start to feel cheated.