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Martian Manhunter (no tp)

vs

Apocalypse


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f51/t434247.html

Telepathy wouldnt work on Apoc anyway...but MM still wins this 9/10

*waits for the Apoc fanboy*

Apoc is a decent match for MM.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Apoc is a decent match for MM.
i agree ..and bump

I just found this thread when I was going to make the same one. anyway this is a great fight and i would give 6 out of 10 for apoc because of MM's weakness to fire, if that wasn't a factor then i would say 5 out of 5 for both. This is a great fight considering how they have the same powers and both are vastly under-estimated and job all the time.

(waits for apoc and x haters who seem like they never read x-men or the respect threads)

J'onn is no longer weak to fire.

Jonn 7/10

I'd have to give J'onn the majority due to his strength and speed advantage.

Originally posted by batdude123
J'onn is no longer weak to fire.

i thought so but I didn't know

still it's 5 out of 5 still in my opinion

Originally posted by batdude123
I'd have to give J'onn the majority due to his strength and speed advantage.

if MM has any advantage in that department I can't imagine it would be enough to matter.

Originally posted by batdude123
I'd have to give J'onn the majority due to his strength and speed advantage.

I get the speed advantage but I think Apoc would be stronger.

Apoc's biggest claim to Strength fame is probably holding hulk.Jonn held Orion,Big Barda and Wonder Woman all at the same time.

Originally posted by jasofisc
if MM has any advantage in that department I can't imagine it would be enough to matter.

He indeed does. His speed is quite a bit greater than Apocalypse's is. He's also a little bit stronger.

The way I see it:

They're basically the same character, except J'onn is faster, stronger and has better control over his body's anatomy. That should wield J'onn 7/10 in this fight.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I get the speed advantage but I think Apoc would be stronger.

Nah.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Apoc's biggest claim to Strength fame is probably holding hulk.Jonn held Orion,Big Barda and Wonder Woman all at the same time.

Well then Apoc is screwed in this fight. Thier powers are similar but if do doesn't have the speed or strength he won't win.

Originally posted by batdude123
He indeed does. His speed is quite a bit greater than Apocalypse's is. He's also a little bit stronger.

The way I see it:

They're basically the same character, except J'onn is faster, stronger and has better control over his body's anatomy. That should wield J'onn 7/10 in this fight.

I guess this is just a difference of opinion here i see them as about the same in these areas.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Apoc's biggest claim to Strength fame is probably holding hulk.Jonn held Orion,Big Barda and Wonder Woman all at the same time.

I would say that beating ikaris prime, and Loki though brute attacks are a bit better then just holding hulk.

btw hasn't orion and wonder woman both over powered MM in the past i'm not trying to discredit the feat just saying it's a high end feat. and that it's equal to apoc battering Loki and Ikaris

Originally posted by jasofisc
I guess this is just a difference of opinion here i see them as about the same in these areas.

What's Apoc's greatest speed feat?

MM also trumped Triumph,a guy as strong,fast and durable as superman(Triumph said this whilst fighting Evenly against Supes) In Addition To Ultraman and Stalemating Captain Marvel in a contest of strength.Not to mention that even if Apoc DOES somehow have an advantage all Jonn has to do is Phase and it's a perpetual stalemate.At Apocs best 5/5 but most likely Jonn 7/10

Originally posted by Martian_mind
MM also trumped Triumph,a guy as strong,fast and durable as superman(Triumph said this whilst fighting Evenly against Supes) In Addition To Ultraman and Stalemating Captain Marvel in a contest of strength.Not to mention that even if Apoc DOES somehow have an advantage all Jonn has to do is Phase and it's a perpetual stalemate.At Apocs best 5/5 but most likely Jonn 7/10

if apoc has any advantage it's slight I wasn't the one who was trying make the statement of apoc being stronger.

I agree with MM being as strong as supes and cap marvel but I also think apoc is as strong also.

your odd seem reasonable

Originally posted by batdude123
What's Apoc's greatest speed feat?

I'm not sure I'm just guessing it maybe the time he toed high evolutionary to some distant planet (I don't know the distance) or that he was able to keep up and be even faster then ikiaris prime in there fight.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/259/56000068ij4.jpg

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/259/56000068ij4.jpg

sweet scan where is it from, I totally agree with it too MM is awsome and rarely ever gets credit in DC it's always getting owned by people he shouldn't have any problem with.

Thats from JLA trial by fire.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Thats from JLA trial by fire.

thanks I will have to pick that up

Originally posted by jasofisc
thanks I will have to pick that up

One of the best Jonn arcs ever.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/259/56000068ij4.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123


He's not the most powerful on the face of the earth....but he would kick supes ass

Originally posted by Martian_mind
He's not the most powerful on the face of the earth....but he would kick supes ass
Batdude's next post:
T-Vo.

Originally posted by batdude123
What's Apoc's greatest speed feat?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers23.png

Well, here he clocks a super speed running Quicksilver.

Originally posted by jasofisc
I would say that beating ikaris prime

that it's equal to apoc battering Ikaris
Apocalypse vs "Prime Eternal Ikaris" was a shit fight. All Ikaris really did was punch and fire eye beams, he didn't show any measure of actual superspeed, and he was beaten by being stabbed.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Batdude's next post:
T-Vo.

My next Post,JLA Golden Perfect.When every leaguer is reality warped(including Supes)Jonn is the only one bar Diana who isn't affected by the reality warp.When Diana asks how he is fine Jonn states"My more linear view off reality protects me"So no T-vo Pis filled reality manipulation power for Supes


shuriken

Originally posted by Martian_mind
My next Post,JLA Golden Perfect.When every leaguer is reality warped(including Supes)Jonn is the only one bar Diana who isn't affected by the reality warp.When Diana asks how he is fine Jonn states"My more linear view off reality protects me"So no T-vo Pis filled reality manipulation power for Supes


shuriken

My next post:

J'onn has felt the effects of reality manipulation before (Divided We Fall), so he's not immuned to it. Not to mention, T-Vo worked on beings vastly more powerful than J'onn.

shuriken

Originally posted by batdude123
My next post:

J'onn has felt the effects of reality manipulation before (Divided We Fall), so he's not immuned to it. Not to mention, T-Vo worked on beings vastly more powerful than J'onn.

shuriken
My next post.

Golden perfect came out after Divided we fall,so it's a retcon
Also if it has worked on stronger beings than Jonn it was probably one done with time and concentration,something supes won't have if Jonn is constantly attacking his mind

shuriken

Originally posted by Martian_mind
My next post.

Golden perfect came out after Divided we fall,so it's a retcon
Also if it has worked on stronger beings than Jonn it was probably one done with time and concentration,something supes won't have if Jonn is constantly attacking his mind

My next post.

J'onn isn't immune to reality manipulation. Him having a "linear" view upon things wouldn't mean dick. J'onn wouldn't be given the time nor the energy to attack Superman's mind. Superman is immensely faster, and he's stronger.

Remember guys you have only 10 posts.

Originally posted by batdude123
My next post.

J'onn isn't immune to reality manipulation. Him having a "linear" view upon things wouldn't mean dick. J'onn wouldn't be given the time nor the energy to attack Superman's mind. Superman is immensely faster, and he's stronger.

If Jonn Phases The level of Supes Speed or Strength Matters not.
Jonn may not have many lifting feats however he has a good track record against superman-level characters,Stalemating Captain Marvel,Beating Triumph,Restraining Orion,Wonder Woman and Big barda all at once and beating Ultraman(I know you like to bring up how Ultraman had'nt taken any Kryptonite in a while but if you read the story it States they had only been gone 10 minutes and it is highly doubtful that Ultraman would have let himself get low in case he smashed the giant hands and got in a confrontation) I would never say that Jonn is stronger or faster than supes,but if Supes gets his hands on him it won't be a curbstomp.

shuriken

Originally posted by Martian_mind
If Jonn Phases The level of Supes Speed or Strength Matters not.
Jonn may not have many lifting feats however he has a good track record against superman-level characters,Stalemating Captain Marvel,Beating Triumph,Restraining Orion,Wonder Woman and Big barda all at once and beating Ultraman(I know you like to bring up how Ultraman had'nt taken any Kryptonite in a while but if you read the story it States they had only been gone 10 minutes and it is highly doubtful that Ultraman would have let himself get low in case he smashed the giant hands and got in a confrontation) I would never say that Jonn is stronger or faster than supes,but if Supes gets his hands on him it won't be a curbstomp.

shuriken

He does have good track records against said opponents, but the same could easily be said for Superman. He's beaten his fair share of people who are more versatile than him. Cyborg Superman, Eradicator (with the use of T-VO!!), GLs, etc.

Not to mention Superman also has intangible and invisible tricks up his sleeve as well.

Intangible:

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1971/supermanfast3ar.jpg

Invisible:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Supermangoininvisible.jpg

And J'onn wouldn't be given the luxury of time for the phasing to work while Superman was bombarding him with his speed and strength advantage.

Superman's combat speed>>>J'onn's combat speed.

shuriken

Anyway, BACK ON TOPIC.

J'onn wins against Apocalypse with his speed advantage.

http://img440.imageshack.us/my.php?image=martianmanhuntersspeedca8.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123
He does have good track records against said opponents, but the same could easily be said for Superman. He's beaten his fair share of people who are more versatile than him. Cyborg Superman, Eradicator (with the use of T-VO!!), GLs, etc.

Not to mention Superman also has intangible and invisible tricks up his sleeve as well.

Intangible:

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/1971/supermanfast3ar.jpg

Invisible:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Supermangoininvisible.jpg

And J'onn wouldn't be given the luxury of time for the phasing to work while Superman was bombarding him with his speed and strength advantage.

Superman's combat speed>>>J'onn's combat speed.

shuriken


I'll dare say Jonn thinks faster than he moves and since him Phasing is a mental act he should be able to pull it off before supes gets to him or he could just lose all bodily control and let supes hit him,if he has relaxed his body would be like slush and all the strength and speed in the world won't matter.Then he can phase.


Supes turning invisible and intangible doesn't matter because no way in hell would Jonn try to slug it with Superman c'mon,He's F***ing Superman.Jonn's telepathy can put Superman down,Maxwell lord did it(and don't say it took him years,he has known Superman that long but it was never stated it took him years) Protex Did it (I know Supes overcame it but it took him two issues,more then enough to count as a win) Also PLZ don't bring up Despero as Supes only held out for one panel each time and was saved by others,hell you can see the immense strain on Supes face.

shuriken

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I'll dare say Jonn thinks faster than he moves and since him Phasing is a mental act he should be able to pull it off before supes gets to him or he could just lose all bodily control and let supes hit him,if he has relaxed his body would be like slush and all the strength and speed in the world won't matter.Then he can phase.

Superman has proven to have superior reflexes (many times) AND superior combat speed than J'onn. It's an advantage that could definitely be exploited if they were to fight. Recently, the green martians have been taken out with a few simple lasers. This leads me to believe that J'onn wouldn't be digging Superman's heat vision too much.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Supes turning invisible and intangible doesn't matter because no way in hell would Jonn try to slug it with Superman c'mon,He's F***ing Superman.Jonn's telepathy can put Superman down,Maxwell lord did it(and don't say it took him years,he has known Superman that long but it was never stated it took him years) Protex Did it (I know Supes overcame it but it took him two issues,more then enough to count as a win) Also PLZ don't bring up Despero as Supes only held out for one panel each time and was saved by others,hell you can see the immense strain on Supes face.

shuriken

And yet, it DID take Max Lord 10 years to mentally control Superman. He had to pretend to be a friend all that time in order to penetrate his defenses.

Superman has punked Protex even without the use of his heat vision (just to make it fair).

That's the same Despero that made J'onn his b*tch with a telepathic assault.

Superman could also use T-Vo as a telepathic inhibitor against J'onn. Or he could take him to his astral playground and pwn the shit out of him. It's worked on Blaze (magical skyfather) instantly.

Bottom line; if Superman gets his hands on J'onn with his superior speed and strength, J'onn's going down.

shuriken

Originally posted by batdude123
Superman has proven to have superior reflexes (many times) AND superior combat speed than J'onn. It's an advantage that could definitely be exploited if they were to fight. Recently, the green martians have been taken out with a few simple lasers. This leads me to believe that J'onn wouldn't be digging Superman's heat vision too much.


Right but its an advantage that he can't exploit,because Jonn would fold like putty and not be harmed or he would be intangible.Also in JLA Justice for all Amazo almost cuts Jonns arm off using Supes Heat vision Do you know what Jonn says When Supes asks if he's OK?"Nothing a little concentration Won't fix"Basically Jonn isn't comcerned because he can heal,we both know how quick Jonn heals.

FYI those energy beams that killed Roh'Kar are a recreation of a Martian Psionic Blast,not heat Vision in any way


Originally posted by batdude123

And yet, it DID take Max Lord 10 years to mentally control Superman. He had to pretend to be a friend all that time in order to penetrate his defenses.

Where does it say it took him years?Scans,Isuue NO# just because he knew him for years doesn't mean he was doing it for years.Also When has Maxwell lord Been as strong a Telepath as Jonn?

Originally posted by batdude123


Superman has punked Protex even without the use of his heat vision (just to make it fair)..

Exactly and Protex was winning until Supes Dragged him down to the center of the earth and the heat and flames there weakened him,so basically supes can't beat a white martian in a "fair" fight



Originally posted by batdude123

That's the same Despero that made J'onn his b*tch with a telepathic assault.

Superman could also use T-Vo as a telepathic inhibitor against J'onn. Or he could take him to his astral playground and pwn the shit out of him. It's worked on Blaze (magical skyfather) instantly.

Bottom line; if Superman gets his hands on J'onn with his superior speed and strength, J'onn's going down.

shuriken

Despero and Jonn were Fighting for Two issues and were in Telepath Contact the whole time,Despero was trying to Dampen Jonns Jonn still Reached Aquaman,Not to mention Despero himself states Jonn and Aquaman were weakened.Jonns linear view would most likely mean he could see through any tricks of T-Vo.

shuriken

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Apocalypse vs "Prime Eternal Ikaris" was a shit fight. All Ikaris really did was punch and fire eye beams, he didn't show any measure of actual superspeed, and he was beaten by being stabbed.



sooooo every fight that doesn't show the characters showing "any measure of actual superspeed" means they're not using it at all. Hum I guess I just thought that if the two characters had super speed they would use it in a fight. When two people who are superfast are fighting it's just kinda assumed that they are fighting with there powers.

everything is a Sh!t fight when a person who is bias is looking at it and has something against one of the characters.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Right but its an advantage that he can't exploit,because Jonn would fold like putty and not be harmed or he would be intangible.Also in JLA Justice for all Amazo almost cuts Jonns arm off using Supes Heat vision Do you know what Jonn says When Supes asks if he's OK?"Nothing a little concentration Won't fix"Basically Jonn isn't comcerned because he can heal,we both know how quick Jonn heals.

I know he's got a healing factor that's second to none, but he can indeed be hurt and/or knocked out. He has before in the past. Even in altercations with Superman before, he's been beaten.

Phasing is great... if he is actually given the opportunity. J'onn's speed is a tortoise's pace compared to Superman. His TRAVELLING speed has been clocked out at what? Mach 100? Definitely not as fast as Superman. Superman would be giving J'onn many punches that he WOULD be fealing in his corporeal form. If he does phase after that, then it wouldn't be after suffering through many shots from Superman. Superman could use his freeze breath to keep J'onn in his corporeal form while beating him to death.

He's used his freeze breath to contain the likes of Bizarro before.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Superman/Supermanicebreatheact845.jpg

Originally posted by Martian_mind
FYI those energy beams that killed Roh'Kar are a recreation of a Martian Psionic Blast,not heat Vision in any way

Hmmm, good to know.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Where does it say it took him years?Scans,Isuue NO# just because he knew him for years doesn't mean he was doing it for years.Also When has Maxwell lord Been as strong a Telepath as Jonn?

I'm not even saying Max Lord is as strong of a telepath as J'onn, but it was stated that it took him years to accomplish said feat. Superman's defenses would be enough to get him through the fight w/o his brain being on fire.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Exactly and Protex was winning until Supes Dragged him down to the center of the earth and the heat and flames there weakened him,so basically supes can't beat a white martian in a "fair" fight

It's not exactly like Protex was playing it fair either. Before that battle even started, Superman was chained up and exposed to kryptonite radiation.

And yeah, actually Superman has pwned bunches of white martians before (terror incognita).

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Despero and Jonn were Fighting for Two issues and were in Telepath Contact the whole time,Despero was trying to Dampen Jonns Jonn still Reached Aquaman,Not to mention Despero himself states Jonn and Aquaman were weakened.Jonns linear view would most likely mean he could see through any tricks of T-Vo.

shuriken

I think you forgot to mention the fact that in Virtue and Vice, Despero mentally raped J'onn like there was no tomorrow.

Linear view doesn't mean shit to T-Vo. He doesn't even have to use it for reality altering. He can use it to create constructs, or use it to take damage without suffering any ill effects. He can use it to basically do whatever the hell he wants. And if universal abstracts, and magical skyfathers, and Eradicator have felt the effects, my guess would be that J'onn wouldn't exactly have an easy time with it.

I hate t-vo with everything within me. It should be as laughable as wolverine stabbing into thanos with the infinity gauntlet. Isn't the new superman writter not even going to have it in his run? Gosh why don't they just give supes every power ever. I mean they almost have I can't wait tell he get's unbreakable claws that are sharper and more duraible then wolverine's.

they could even call the new power direct tv

it was just revealed that they were actually white martian plus jonn can counter superman heat vision with his version of heat vision

bumprav

Yeh it was a yar ago but meh.Originally posted by jasofisc
sooooo every fight that doesn't show the characters showing "any measure of actual superspeed" means they're not using it at all.I'm not sure if that was supposed to make it sound like an unreasonable assumption.Originally posted by jasofisc
Hum I guess I just thought that if the two characters had super speed they would use it in a fight. When two people who are superfast are fighting it's just kinda assumed that they are fighting with there powers. Except the fight wasn't between two characters with superspeed. It was a fight between one character with superspeed not using it and Apocalypse.

MM still wins.

J'onn's superspeed is definitely an advantage here. Would you guys consider J'onns weakness to fire to be common knowledge?

Apocalypse wins

Can't Apocalypse augment his strength? Can't Apocalypse augment his speed? I heard but i am not sure this is true but at one point in time Apocalypse could move just as fast as Quicksilver.

Originally posted by batdude123
J'onn is no longer weak to fire.

That's not what libra taught.

Anyways, Manhunter for the win.