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Sidious versus Jacen

Who wins?

Setting: Jedi Temple

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Sidious versus Jacen

Who wins?

Setting: Jedi Temple

Once upon a time, I'd have said Jacen - in a heartbeat. But the whole LotF series is making me wonder (given the author inconsistencies). Luke has lost his all-powerful image and skill that was present in NJO and the Dark Nest trilogy. He had trouble with Lumiya. And Jacen is weaker than Luke.

I don't see him (given the current depictions) triumphing over Sidious.

Well when I put LOTF Jacen, I meant Jacen at his strongest as a Jedi. Sorry for the confusion.

Even at his peak, Jacen can't take Sidious in a full on fight. I'm not sure if even Luke could take him.

Oh lord, we've been over this. We KNOW Luke could destroy Sidious at his peak, there's no argument there.

O'really? Since when have we known that?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
O'really? Since when have we known that?

Luke, at his peak, would be more powerful than Sidious. Lucas confirmed that.

When did Lucas ever confirm that? I only remember Luke being confirmed as the strongest Jedi to have ever lived. Furthermore, who's to say that Luke has reached his peak?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
When did Lucas ever confirm that? I only remember Luke being confirmed as the strongest Jedi to have ever lived. Furthermore, who's to say that Luke has reached his peak?

Lucas confirmed it in a Rolling Stone interview. He said that was why the Emperor and Vader each wanted Luke to become their apprentice. Vader needed him because Luke could become more powerful than the Emperor - and Sidious wanted Luke because Luke was a powerful weapon.

Hell, Vader himself says it in ESB: "You can destroy the Emperor. He has forseen this."

1. Let me repeat myself. who's to say that Luke has reached his peak?

2. If Sidious has truly managed to manipulate midiclorians, why couldn't he do so in his own body giving himself effectively unlimited potential.

3. When has Luke ever demonstrated himself to be more powerful than Sidious?

Where have I ever said that Luke has reached his peak? Sidious was in his nineties in Dark Empire, and had only recently invented his Force Storm technique. It could be argued that he wasn't even at his peak then.



Perhaps. But did he even manipulate midichlorians?



That crap with the Killiks impressed me a hell of a lot.

Originally posted by Gideon
Where have I ever said that Luke has reached his peak? Sidious was in his nineties in Dark Empire, and had only recently invented his Force Storm technique. It could be argued that he wasn't even at his peak then.

This is exactly my point. It isn't important what Luke's potential is, as he hasn't reached it.

Originally posted by Gideon
Perhaps. But did he even manipulate midichlorians?

We know that he certainly spent years attempting too. Whether or not he ever achieved Plagueis' (spelling?) success is unknown. However, Lumiya described Sidious' power as limitless. Being able to control midiclorians would have that affect.

Originally posted by Gideon
That crap with the Killiks impressed me a hell of a lot.

Regardless, it in no way puts him beyond Sidious. Nothing he did with the Killiks is beyond Sidious and his Force Storms.

i dont think sidious ever learned how to manipulate midiclorians he told vader only his master knew how

Glentract, you need to go back and read. I haven't argued or suggested to you that Luke would defeat Sidious as of now (though he would be more powerful at his peak, this is a fact).



Indeed.



Again, you need to understand that it is Sexy whom you should be attempting to refute. Not me. All I said was that Luke has the potential to become more powerful than Sidious - which is a fact.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
1. Let me repeat myself. who's to say that Luke has reached his peak?

2. If Sidious has truly managed to manipulate midiclorians, why couldn't he do so in his own body giving himself effectively unlimited potential.

3. When has Luke ever demonstrated himself to be more powerful than Sidious?


1. I believe Lucas said Luke either reached his peak in DN, or LOTF. I can't honestly tell you because of the stupid inconsistencies in Luke's power from all those books. One minute he's a force God, next minute he's afraid of Jacen. But what IS pretty obvious is that by DN, he could take Sidious down. And if he hasn't reached his potential at that point, that makes it even worse for Sidious. But I'm pretty sure by LOTF he's at his peak, especially since he doesn't live to be over 100 according to Legacy.
2. Whats with this nonsense crap? The only person we can think of that DID manipulate midichlorians is Darth Plagueis. There's nothing to even remotely suggest Sidious could do something like that. Remember what he said to Anakin? "To cheat death is the power only one has achieved but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret".
3. Read anything from DN and up, and stop parading around with your EOD arguments. They didn't work before, they sure as hell won't work now.

Some people are forgetting that Luke himself could not take DE Sidious down.

I am getting tired of this Luke (Super-Jedi) views, without any proper facts considered.

Leia's Battle Meditation was their and her power was further enhanced by her unborn child. Her Battle Meditation was the reason, that Sidious's Force Storm failed to materialize.

Also, DE Luke was in a clone body that was not perfect. If he would have been in a proper body, then he would have less troubles and would have fought more effectively.

And remember that 4000 year old Exar Kun's spirit had Luke on his @ss.

And once again, Captain Planet lacks reading comprehension. DE Luke is NOT DN Luke. NJO/DN Luke is already the most powerful force user in the star wars world...

You do realise I never once posted in this thread, right? What are you talking about, where did I say they were the same?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And once again, Captain Planet lacks reading comprehension. DE Luke is NOT DN Luke. NJO/DN Luke is already the most powerful force user in the star wars world...

S W Legend looked like Sexyback in the title. Sorry, you have a reputation for stupidity, so when I saw the first name of the user followed by the actual post, I automatically assumed. My apologies.

Yay for backhanded apologies!!

sidious wins against jacen

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
S W Legend looked like Sexyback in the title. Sorry, you have a reputation for stupidity, so when I saw the first name of the user followed by the actual post, I automatically assumed. My apologies.
I have a reputation of stupidity???

And what wrong did I said in my post?

Originally posted by kamhal
sidious wins against jacen

The way it's looking, Sidious WTFpwns him. He shouldn't be close to Luke, and Luke shouldn't appear this weak as he is portrayed in LotF. But, hey, that's what you get for author inconsistencies.

Exactly, i got one question, where does it state that sidious mastered everything? i been foolish enough not to ask where was the proof because planet did state that "it is believed" and i checked, yup, its true

Originally posted by Kadesh
Exactly, i got one question, where does it state that sidious mastered everything? i been foolish enough not to ask where was the proof because planet did state that "it is believed" and i checked, yup, its true

No kidding. He mastered nearly all the known techniques, he rediscovered lost techniques, and made ones of his own. Tally that up, and you've got a knowledge base superior to any other Sith.

Originally posted by Gideon
The way it's looking, Sidious WTFpwns him. He shouldn't be close to Luke, and Luke shouldn't appear this weak as he is portrayed in LotF. But, hey, that's what you get for author inconsistencies.

Even before the inconsistencies I'd still put Sidious above Luke. I'd probably consider him the strongest ever. MAYBE Sekot could take him, but I doubt even she could do it.

Im glad you would put him above Luke, but ROTJ, NJO, and DN proved that Luke is the most powerful force user in star wars history.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Im glad you would put him above Luke, but ROTJ, NJO, and DN proved that Luke is the most powerful force user in star wars history.

RotJ proved that Luke is the most powerful Force user in history? I think you mean "has the potential to be". Author inconsistencies or not, I am a firm and staunch believer that Luke - at his full potential - will be more powerful than any other Force user, ever. Period. Bar none.

But he wasn't the most powerful as of RotJ. He's not even close to his full potential, if Sidious's developments in his late age is any indication. Count Dooku, as well, improved dramatically in his old age under Sith training, despite being well into his seventies when it began.

It is the author inconsistencies that have put doubt in my mind about Luke's current level of power. But, if we go by NJO, then Luke is either the most powerful to date - or top three at least.

Originally posted by Gideon
RotJ proved that Luke is the most powerful Force user in history? I think you mean "has the potential to be". Author inconsistencies or not, I am a firm and staunch believer that Luke - at his full potential - will be more powerful than any other Force user, ever. Period. Bar none.
that's what I meant, and i think you mean that he would be more powerful than anyone ever next to Anakin, had anakin achieved his full potential

Yea, I meant all of that, I don't think I was clear.



That is what pisses me off. First he's a force God then he's afraid of Jacen, next he'll be a force God and then he'll be killed by a blaster bolt or something. It's ridiculous.

He meant Planet man.