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Bloodlust is on....Spectre is at his max....

Classic Beyonder is also at his max (remember, the entire Secret Wars was only the fraction of his power)

Who wins this muddafu**a ? ??!?!

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Bloodlust is on....Spectre is at his max....

Classic Beyonder is also at his max (remember, the entire Secret Wars was only the fraction of his power)

Who wins this muddafu**a ? ??!?!

is this pre retcon beyonder

Originally posted by guy222
is this pre retcon beyonder

Originally posted by bigbran


i think it is

u can answer before me

yup it is pretconed beyonder he would win, IMO

Classic, or Pre-Retconed Beyonder would win this.

PreRet Beyonder wins this

This is Spectre at his best:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4373/spectredx1.th.jpg


But it wouldn't be anywhere near enough to beat Beyonder.

Originally posted by Galan007
This is Spectre at his best:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4373/spectredx1.th.jpg


But it wouldn't be anywhere near enough to beat Beyonder.

galan, what scan is that from

I believe it's from "Spectre v.3 Issue #58"

Originally posted by Galan007
I believe it's from "Spectre v.3 Issue #58"

thank u

that's spectre w/god's power correct

Originally posted by guy222
thank u

that's spectre w/god's power correct

Spectre was merged with "God" in that scan.

Originally posted by Galan007


Spectre was merged with "God" in that scan.
I never got into the Spectre comics, so why did Spectre merged with god?

Originally posted by Priest
I never got into the Spectre comics, so why did Spectre merged with god? Well in a nutshell...

Spectre questioned if "the source" truly was God, then Spectre enters the Source and asks this question...

So then God merged with Spectre so he could know for himself

Originally posted by Galan007
Well in a nutshell...

Spectre questioned if "the source" truly was God, then Spectre enters the Source and asks this question...

So then God merged with Spectre so he could know for himself
Aww man, all this time, i thought he was merged with god to accually battle a threat , that would of been cool.
thanx for the for the info.
BTW, like i said before, i never read much Spectre, but i wanna start reading his stuff, wat issue's/ volume's do u recommend?

So Galan is spectre having a small bit of gods power or a large bit ore something els

Originally posted by Priest
Aww man, all this time, i thought he was merged with god to accually battle a threat , that would of been cool.
thanx for the for the info.
BTW, like i said before, i never read much Spectre, but i wanna start reading his stuff, wat issue's/ volume's do u recommend? There's so many good Spectre comics.

Some of the one's I like are...

Day of Vengence/Judgement
JSA Black vengence
Pretty much ALL of v.3 in the Spectre series are great as well.

There's so many more, but those are the ones I like (especially v.3 in the Spectre series)

Originally posted by Utrigita
So Galan is spectre having a small bit of gods power or a large bit ore something els Spectre=God's wrath personified.

Originally posted by Galan007
Awww, theres so many good ones.

Some of the one's I like are...

Day of Vengence/Judgement
JSA Black vengence
Pretty much ALL of v.3 in the Spectre series are great as well.

There's so many more, but those are the ones I like (especially v.3 in the Spectre series)
awesome, when i get back home from college, ill probably pick up some issues
thanx dude

Originally posted by Priest
awesome, when i get back home from college, ill probably pick up some issues
thanx dude Yeah, those are just the tip of the iceburg.

but v.3 is a great series through and through, with alot of awesome moments IMO.

but if he is gods wrath incarnated then i have my doubt on pre recon beyonder being capable og dealing with him.

Compare these 2 scans...

Beyonder at his "best"= The power of millions of Multiverses combined:
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg

Spectre at his best= Everything in DC, which at them most= A Multiverse:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4373/spectredx1.th.jpg


Hyperbole or not, for the purposes of this thread it dosen't matter, because it was stated that these two are at their "best".

Both of those scans are the "best" power we know of that these characters have demonstrated.

So going by that, Beyonder takes this.

Originally posted by Galan007
Compare these 2 scans...

Beyonder at his "best"= The power of millions of Multiverses combined:
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg

Spectre at his best= Everything in DC, which at them most= A Multiverse:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4373/spectredx1.th.jpg


Hyperbole or not, for the purposes of this thread it dosen't matter, because it was stated that these two are at their "best".

Both of those scans are the "best" power we know of that these characters have demonstrated.

So going by that, Beyonder takes this.

Only one multiverse? What about the various vertigo universes, some overlap some do not It's down to the writer imo.or Wildstorm?

You say that but whilst Crisis was going on Captain Atom was in the Wildstorm Universe which was unaffected by the Crisis. Interestingly he could not get home easily. His Universe was not part of the Wildstorm Multiverse perhaps and yet they have had a lot of crossovers?

Weird stuff.

The Authority are now in the "real world" but not really.

What about all these omni-battles lately?
-- I go with Beyonder since he was such a pimp.

Originally posted by By Crom!
Only one multiverse? What about the various vertigo universes, some overlap some do not It's down to the writer imo.or Wildstorm?

You say that but whilst Crisis was going on Captain Atom was in the Wildstorm Universe which was unaffected by the Crisis. Interestingly he could not get home easily. His Universe was not part of the Wildstorm Multiverse perhaps and yet they have had a lot of crossovers?

Weird stuff.

The Authority are now in the "real world" but not really. Regardless, though I do think that Beyonder scan is pure Hyperbole, for the purposes of this thread it dosen't matter, because that's the highest level of power Beyonder supposedly achieved.

And there is nothing to suggest that Spectre (Hyperbole or not), has ever achieved such power IMO.

Originally posted by Galan007
Regardless, though I do think that Beyonder scan is pure Hyperbole, for the purposes of this thread it dosen't matter, because that's the highest level of power Beyonder supposedly achieved.

And there is nothing to suggest that Spectre (Hyperbole or not), has ever achieved such power IMO.

I think with the extremely powerful from different companies they are walking plot devices and limited only by the writers imagination and the plot.

Originally posted by By Crom!
I think with the extremely powerful from different companies they are walking plot devices and limited only by the writers imagination and the plot.

Yep, and then the writers retcon that event after it's over

So Beyonder is above Dc's God?

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
So Beyonder is above Dc's God? Spectre never had the full power of God.

If this fight was Beyonder v.s. Michael, it would be a different story on my part.

The thing is Spectre cannot defy DC's entire cosmology and play with the multiverse...the greatest thing he has done was become one with the multiverse and everything in it.


Classic Beyonder has power millions of times more than that of Marvel's multiverse (which was Marvel's entire existance at the time)

Classic Beyonder ****ed around with Marvel's entire existance like it was a toy, and only at a fraction of power did he do so....

Classic Beyonder has the power to violate and over rule Marvel's cosmology, while Spectre must abide by and enforce DC's cosmology.


Beyonder wins.....Fatality....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Beyonder wins.....Fatality....

Originally posted by Galan007
Compare these 2 scans...

Beyonder at his "best"= The power of millions of Multiverses combined:
http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/7524/beyondermillionsofxmorepowerfu.th.jpg

Spectre at his best= Everything in DC, which at them most= A Multiverse:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4373/spectredx1.th.jpg


Hyperbole or not, for the purposes of this thread it dosen't matter, because it was stated that these two are at their "best".

Both of those scans are the "best" power we know of that these characters have demonstrated.

So going by that, Beyonder takes this.

If its hyperbole of course it matters because outside of said Hyperbole Beyonder has done nothing more impressive than the top feats by the IG, Phoenix and HOTI.

No talk about a Multi Death as that is just a creation of a certain someones that sprung from their interpretation of a scene.

Gotta go bed. Continue tomorrow.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If its hyperbole of course it matters because outside of said Hyperbole Beyonder has done nothing more impressive than the top feats by the IG, Phoenix and HOTI. The stipulations of this thread state that both characters are at their maximum powerset.

In the scan I posted of Spectre at his most powerful, he did nothing, he has zero feats with that power, but I still count it as Spectre's most powerful form.

So for the same reason, I count the Beyonder scan as the most power he displayed as well, (hyperbole or not).

Make sense?

Originally posted by Galan007
The stipulations of this thread state that both characters are at their maximum powerset.

In the scan I posted of Spectre at his most powerful, he did nothing, he has zero feats with that power, but I still count it as Spectre's most powerful form that we have seen.

So for the same reason, I count the Beyonder scan as the most power he displayed as well, (hyperbole or not).

Make sense?

Doesnt make sense at all.

You judge their comparative power based on the feats they perform. Beyonder hasnt performed a feat more impressive than Spectres best.

How can you dictate that a scene displaying Spectres omniscience is his greatest show of power and therefore be the one we are to judge how well he would fare in a fight?

The Beyonder scan is hyperbole. There is nothing on panel to prove that that isnt the case. Therefore you cant take those words and say theyre the greatest show of power the Beyonder has so thats the Beyonder we're going to use for this match up.

If you want to judge the greatest versions of these characters it should be based on their greatest ACTUAL displays of power. Battle feats and creationary/energy manipulation feats.

Not a Spectre scan which doesnt meet the criteria as it depicts omniscience and a Beyonder scan where hes not applying his power to anything for us to measure his power against (for example battling, or performing an action upon something) but instead just having his power returned to him whilst we're told how powerful those energies supposedly are.

Said scan of Beyonder is contradicted on panel. Therefore theres nothing to tell us its anything but hyperbole.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Doesnt make sense at all.

You judge their comparative power based on the feats they perform. Beyonder hasnt performed a feat more impressive than Spectres best.

How can you dictate that a scene displaying Spectres omniscience is his greatest show of power and therefore be the one we are to judge how well he would fare in a fight?

The Beyonder scan is hyperbole. There is nothing on panel to prove that that isnt the case. Therefore you cant take those words and say theyre the greatest show of power the Beyonder has so thats the Beyonder we're going to use for this match up.

If you want to judge the greatest versions of these characters it should be based on their greatest ACTUAL displays of power. Battle feats and creationary/energy manipulation feats.

Not a Spectre scan which doesnt meet the criteria as it depicts omniscience and a Beyonder scan where hes not applying his power to anything for us to measure his power against (for example battling, or performing an action upon something) but instead just having his power returned to him whilst we're told how powerful those energies supposedly are. IMO those scans demonstrate the greatest displays of power either character has ever been shown to have had, hyperbole or not. Thats why I based my decision off of those 2 scans+other high-showings of each character.

If you disagree with me that's fine, all I stated was my opinion........ nothing more. srug

Galan was showing the Spectre and Beyonder at thier most powerful states...end of story.

The narraration was done by the writer on Beyonder's behalf, so to argue against what the writer wrote is ludacris.

Spectre fusing with the Multiverse is more impressive than anything else he has ever done.



Going by they are thier maximum stages, while Spectre is equivalent to the universes that were making up his form, Beyonder was equal to power that of millions of times the multiverse...

End of Story

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Galan was showing the Spectre and Beyonder at thier most powerful states...end of story.

The narraration was done by the writer on Beyonder's behalf, so to argue against what the writer wrote is ludacris.

Spectre fusing with the Multiverse is more impressive than anything else he has ever done.



Going by they are thier maximum stages, while Spectre is equivalent to the universes that were making up his form, Beyonder was equal to power that of millions of times the multiverse...

End of Story Exactly. galan

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Galan was showing the Spectre and Beyonder at thier most powerful states...end of story.

The narraration was done by the writer on Beyonder's behalf, so to argue against what the writer wrote is ludacris.

Spectre fusing with the Multiverse is more impressive than anything else he has ever done.

The scans do not show either character at their most powerful. The Spectre scan shows omniscience. He becomes one with creation and attuned to all that is going on. Genis Vell possessed omniversal telepathy. The Watchers are attuned to all what happens in the multiverse. Omniscience does NOT equate to omnipotence.

Narration when contradicted by on panel occurences is usless. Narration has deemed Wolverine as fast as lightning, are we to take that literally. Should i now make a thread about speed feats and post a caption of Wolverine apparently able to move a third of the speed of the light?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Going by they are thier maximum stages, while Spectre is equivalent to the universes that were making up his form, Beyonder was equal to power that of millions of times the multiverse...

End of Story

The Spectre scan and the Beyonder scan both dont meet the criteria this thread sets out i.e them at their max power. The Spectre scan isnt even a display of power. The Beyonder scan is hyperbole.

Im going to make a thread of how powerful Galactus is based on narration describing him as the most powerful force in the universe, forget the fact that even at the time said comments were contradicted on panel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The scans do not show either character at their most powerful. The Spectre scan shows omniscience. He becomes one with creation and attuned to all that is going on. Genis Vell possessed omniversal telepathy. The Watchers are attuned to all what happens in the multiverse. Omniscience does NOT equate to omnipotence.



Spectre becomes one with Creation, making him more powerful than he has ever been before. He is connected with all that exists.

Omniversal telepathy is not the same thing as becoming one with all creation.


Omniversal Telepathy < Becoming One With All That Is


Get it GS ?

Spectre did not just SEE ALL...he BECAME ALL.....


There is no higher power than being the most powerful thing in existance for a one time being.












Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Narration when contradicted by on panel occurences is usless.


I agree



Good thing the narration about Classic Beyonder does not contradict the on-panel feats


You DO remember that Classic Beyonder was only accessing a tiny fragment of his power throughout the entire Secret Wars saga, right ?

You also remember how he played with the Marvel Multiverse (which was all that existed at the time) like a toy, at low power, and still had so much left over it was rediculous.....







Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Narration has deemed Wolverine as fast as lightning, are we to take that literally. Should i now make a thread about speed feats and post a caption of Wolverine apparently able to move a third of the speed of the light?



1) Show scan

2) It's called a simile

3) It's very obvious when narration is exxagerating, and when narration is sincere:

"Wolverine is as fast AS lightning"


"Classic Beyonder retains his power which ISmore than millions of times the multiverse"


If you can't decipher the difference, then I can't help you any further....










Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Spectre scan and the Beyonder scan both dont meet the criteria this thread sets out i.e them at their max power. The Spectre scan isnt even a display of power. The Beyonder scan is hyperbole.



Spectre scan:


Combining oneself with all that exists is surely a display of power.....




Beyonder scan:




Attaining full access to your infinite power is surely a display of power




Again:













Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im going to make a thread of how powerful Galactus is based on narration describing him as the most powerful force in the universe, forget the fact that even at the time said comments were contradicted on panel.




That's a good idea....haven't you done the same for Pheonix ?

Okay, this is a very intriguing thread. But, can anyone define for clarification's sake what Spectre at full power would be? I assume that would be fully omiscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

Apparently, consensus claims that according to the scan, this is Spectre with just full omniscience.

If the thread maker's intention was so that Spectre has full power of all 3 traits, and for intensive purposes is thus basically God, or perhaps better said God has become one with him, then Beyonder goes down, yes? I mean, no one can defeat God.

Now, if Pre-retconned Beyonder apparently possesses all 3 of these same characteristics, then we have a draw. Right?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Spectre becomes one with Creation, making him more powerful than he has ever been before. He is connected with all that exists.

Omniversal telepathy is not the same thing as becoming one with all creation.


Omniversal Telepathy < Becoming One With All That Is


Get it GS ?

Spectre did not just SEE ALL...he BECAME ALL.....

With omniscience you become all, you experience all, you feel all.

Spectre talked of being one with all, of feeling all, of experiencing creation. He said nothing of being able to wield such power.

Genis Vell had omniversal telepathy. Omniscience doesnt equal omnipotence.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
There is no higher power than being the most powerful thing in existance for a one time being.


Well DUH!


Its just a shame that was a depiction of omniscience. Show us how Spectre could actually use all the power of creation for his personal use as opposed to just being one with creation and being attuned to it.










Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Good thing the narration about Classic Beyonder does not contradict the on-panel feats


You DO remember that Classic Beyonder was only accessing a tiny fragment of his power throughout the entire Secret Wars saga, right ?

You also remember how he played with the Marvel Multiverse (which was all that existed at the time) like a toy, at low power, and still had so much left over it was rediculous.....


Show us one example where Beyonder displayed power a million times greater than all that exists in the multiverse as opposed to JUST showing us he was greater than the beings who actually faced him.

Theres not a single feat that illustrates what that caption would have us believe.

Beyonder used a large amount of his power to kill Death and didnt have enough left to bring her back without someone volunteering to take Deaths place and yet he has a million times the power of the multiverse?

Beyonder had his power taken from him by Doom who had access to Galactus the planet eaters (and at most potential universe destroyer) tech for all of 5 mins before he was skilled enough to usurp the Beyonders power leaving him powerless and yet he has power a million times that of the multiverse?

Beyonder had a million times the power of the multiverse combined (apparently) and yet he could still be affected by the power of the multiversal M'kraan crystal?




Originally posted by Lord Urizen


Spectre scan:


Combining oneself with all that exists is surely a display of power.....




Beyonder scan:




Attaining full access to your infinite power is surely a display of power




Glowing with energy is not a display of power. That makes for a pretty picture. To judge how Beyonder would fare against others you go by how his power has been applied against things. What has he done in battle? What has he created? What has he destroyed? NOT a picture of Beyonder glowing and supposedly having such a high level of power. Wheres the reference point to verify that comment? What did he apply his power to after that to show us that he indeed did have a million times the power of the multiverse?

Theres a difference between MERELY being stronger in a fight against the abstracts and having a million times the power of their multiverse combined. Beyonder more or less showed the former, the latter was not only NOT proven on panel, but as ive illustrated was often contradicted.





Originally posted by Lord Urizen


That's a good idea....haven't you done the same for Pheonix ?

Nope. My comments about Phoenixes power are based on actual performed feats, NOT JUST a caption.

Thats enough for now. Very busy this week. I'll counter your reposts with my next visit.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder had his power taken from him by Doom who had access to Galactus the planet eaters (and at most potential universe destroyer) tech for all of 5 mins before he was skilled enough to usurp the Beyonders power leaving him powerless and yet he has power a million times that of the multiverse? To be fair, Beyonder allowed Doom to take his powers.

Originally posted by Galan007
To be fair, Beyonder allowed Doom to take his powers.

If thats the truth then show the scan which actually states the point.

Oh no hes here!!!!

Make way for the reposts!!!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats enough for now. Very busy this week. I'll counter your reposts with my next visit.

Be back probably Sunday/Monday time. Make the most of my absence.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With omniscience you become all, you experience all, you feel all.



This is the Flaw of your argument..Thank you for revealing the problem....


Omniscience is simply the ability to SEE, FEEL , and KNOW ALL...nothing more, nothing less. Omniscience is NOT to become one with all. Your definition is incorrect.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience


http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/omniscient


http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/omniscience.html






Do yourself a favor and research the defintion of omniscience, thank you





Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Spectre talked of being one with all, of feeling all, of experiencing creation. He said nothing of being able to wield such power.



Becoming on with all is Omnipotence. When you become one with all that is, you ARE ALL THAT IS, therefore you can CONTROL ALL THAT IS....


By definition Omnipotence is the ability to DO ALL. However, one method of becoming Omnipotent is to BECOME All, so that control is INTERNAL as opposed to external....

It's been done before by Thanos w Cosmic Cube, and HOTU.....





Get it ?






Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Genis Vell had omniversal telepathy. Omniscience doesnt equal omnipotence.



I agree with you....Omniscience is not omnipotence. What's your point ? Spectre reached omnipotence AND omniscience as I proved above....








Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its just a shame that was a depiction of omniscience. Show us how Spectre could actually use all the power of creation for his personal use as opposed to just being one with creation and being attuned to it.



The depiction was omnipotence because he became one with all....


You earlier tried to argue that this is Omniscience, which it is NOT


I already provided you with the CORRECT defintion of Omniscience, so please drop your argument, it is false
















Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Show us one example where Beyonder displayed power a million times greater than all that exists in the multiverse as opposed to JUST showing us he was greater than the beings who actually faced him.


He didn't have to display this, when it was clearly stated by the Comic book Writer HIMSELF


Classic Beyonder was ALSO STATED to have been acting on a smallFRACTION OF HIS POWER





Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres not a single feat that illustrates what that caption would have us believe. /B]




Classic Beyonder was ALSO STATED to have been acting on a small FRACTION OF HIS POWER





Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder used a large amount of his power to kill Death and didnt have enough left to bring her back without someone volunteering to take Deaths place and yet he has a million times the power of the multiverse?




Classic Beyonder was ALSO STATED to have been acting on a small FRACTION OF HIS POWER






Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder had his power taken from him by Doom who had access to Galactus the planet eaters (and at most potential universe destroyer) tech for all of 5 mins before he was skilled enough to usurp the Beyonders power leaving him powerless and yet he has power a million times that of the multiverse?








Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Beyonder had a million times the power of the multiverse combined (apparently) and yet he could still be affected by the power of the multiversal M'kraan crystal?



Classic Beyonder was ALSO STATED to have been acting on a small FRACTION OF HIS POWER







Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Glowing with energy is not a display of power. That makes for a pretty picture. To judge how Beyonder would fare against others you go by how his power has been applied against things. What has he done in battle? What has he created? What has he destroyed? NOT a picture of Beyonder glowing and supposedly having such a high level of power. Wheres the reference point to verify that comment? What did he apply his power to after that to show us that he indeed did have a million times the power of the multiverse?



If you actually READ Secret Wars, or atleast Mr. Master's Beyonder Respect Thread, you'd have a clue what you were ranting about.....

And again:



Classic Beyonder was ALSO STATED to have been acting on a FRACTION OF HIS POWER







Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theres a difference between MERELY being stronger in a fight against the abstracts and having a million times the power of their multiverse combined. Beyonder more or less showed the former, the latter was not only NOT proven on panel, but as ive illustrated was often contradicted.




THE WRITER CLEARLY STATED that Classic Beyonder possessed power millions of times that of the marvel multiverse. Stan Lee himself confirmed.....that should be more than enough proof....


And ALL OF BEYONDER's FEATS were done at a TINY FRACTION OF HIS POWER as STATED BY THE WRITER...


Do you understand, or will you still argue that the Writer was incorrectabout his OWN CHARACTER ????





You and Beta Ray Howard should hook up...you both love to challenge the writer's descriptions of thier own characters !




Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. My comments about Phoenixes power are based on actual performed feats, NOT JUST a caption.





You rely on feats, AND narration, not to mention the HANDBOOK which the WRITERS formulated.


I find it hypocritcal of you to dismiss the NARRATION and WRITERS DESCRIPTION of Classic Beyonder, but you totally utilized narration and character description of the Pheonix.




I think your just mad that Classic Beyonder pwned Pheonix in the Secret Wars saga...

Originally posted by BobbyD
Okay, this is a very intriguing thread. But, can anyone define for clarification's sake what Spectre at full power would be? I assume that would be fully omiscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent.

Apparently, consensus claims that according to the scan, this is Spectre with just full omniscience.

If the thread maker's intention was so that Spectre has full power of all 3 traits, and for intensive purposes is thus basically God, or perhaps better said God has become one with him, then Beyonder goes down, yes? I mean, no one can defeat God.

Now, if Pre-retconned Beyonder apparently possesses all 3 of these same characteristics, then we have a draw. Right?

Would one you two experts (Galactic and Galan) be so kind as to respond to this, thank you.

Excuse me, that was supposed to be ^^^^ Galactic Storm and Lord Urizen.

Originally posted by BobbyD
be so kind as to respond to this, thank you. The scan that I posted of Spectre merging with the Source, shows that greatest amount of power Spectre has ever been shown to have had. That's why I posted it.

If anyone can show me a scan of more impressive power that Spectre has obtained, then I will concede.

Originally posted by Galan007
Spectre at his best= Everything in DC, which at them most= A Multiverse:
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4373/spectredx1.th.jpg



Bobby D, let's take a good look at the scan.



Spectre became Omnipotence Not just Omniscience. Omniscience , by definition, is just the ability to SEE and KNOW ALL...that's it ! Omniscience is NOT becoming one with all, as I already PROVED in my above post (please click the links, they will provide you with the correct definitions of Omniscience)


GalacticStorm will argue that Spectre became Omniscience, not Omnipotence, he is INCORRECT....I already proved why.




If you read the scan:




Spectre says:



"Within ME the BIRTH OF STARS...THE PRIMAL EXPLOSION SPREADS OUTWARDS.I AM EVERY PARTICLE OF IT !"



"Galaxies COSMOS, UNIVERSES..FILLING EVERY PART OF ME !"





Spectre BECAME ALL there is !



Becoming ALL THERE IS grants you automatic OMNIPOTENCE AND OMNISCIENCE, because you ARE ALL THERE IS, therefore you CONTROL AND KNOW ALL THERE IS !





Watch GS try to argue that this is "just hyperbole as well




Now as for your other question:




Consider that Spectre became all there is....DC's Multiverse (or Omniverse as some will attempt to argue)...so what ?


At the time of Classic Beyonder, the Marvel Multiverse was all there was. Classic Beyonder has power millions of times greater than that of the Multiverse, which was all there was


So....Spectre equalled all there is, and Classic Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than all there was....


You do the math !

Originally posted by Galan007
The scan that I posted of Spectre merging with the Source, shows that greatest amount of power Spectre has ever been shown to have had. That's why I posted it.

If anyone can show me a scan of more impressive power that Spectre has obtained, then I will concede.

That's fine, and I thank you for your efforts, Galan.

But for all intensive purposes, we can assume that he is capable of holding a lot more.

Originally posted by BobbyD
But for all intensive purposes, we can assume that he is capable of holding a lot more. We can assume all we want.

I'm just going by whats actually stated on that particular pannel.

And the scan I provided depicts Spectre with the greatest ammount of power he has ever achieved on pannel.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Bobby D, let's take a good look at the scan.


Spectre BECAME ALL there is !



Becoming ALL THERE IS grants you automatic OMNIPOTENCE AND OMNISCIENCE, because you ARE ALL THERE IS, therefore you CONTROL AND KNOW ALL THERE IS !


Now as for your other question:


Consider that Spectre became all there is....DC's Multiverse (or Omniverse as some will attempt to argue)...so what ?


At the time of Classic Beyonder, the Marvel Multiverse was all there was. Classic Beyonder has power millions of times greater than that of the Multiverse, which was all there was


So....Spectre equalled all there is, and Classic Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than all there was....


You do the math !

Couple of questions and thank for your response.

You left out omnipresent also when describing Spectre ^^.

Secondly, is not infinity = infinity?

If Spectre suddenly became all there is AND Beyonder was all there was, doesn't "All there is" = "All there was"?

Originally posted by Galan007
We can assume all we want.

I'm just going by whats actually stated on that particular pannel.

And the scan I provided depicts Spectre with the greatest ammount of power he has ever achieved on pannel.

I understand...follow you.

Thanks.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Couple of questions and thank for your response.

You left out omnipresent also when describing Spectre ^^.

Secondly, is not infinity = infinity?

If Spectre suddenly became all there is AND Beyonder was all there was, doesn't "All there is" = "All there was"? Spectre's Power= A Multiverse at his best.

Beyonder's Power= Millions of Multiverses at his best.

You do the math

Originally posted by Galan007
Spectre's Power= A Multiverse at his best.

Beyonder's Power= Millions of Multiverses at his best.

You do the math

This doesn't mean anything to me though. Michael Jordan in a pool of 20 of the greatest basketball players in NBA history, is still the greatest basketball player in NBA history in a pool of 1000 of the greatest basketball players in NBA history. It is STILL Michael Jordan. To me this is semantics what you're arguing.

So what you're saying is you think Spectre at FP...having all of God's powers...omni-science/potence/presence is a lesser being than Beyonder (who has the same exact powers) because of the size of the pool.

FP omni = FP omni

Draw.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Oh no hes here!!!!

Make way for the reposts!!!

And you're here,

make way for the FABRICATION of Scans.

So this is KMC Spectre in action, eh?

Lot of theories. Last time I saw him fight, he didn't blink Shazam out of existence as he should have been able to.

There shouldn't have even been a fight.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Bobby D, let's take a good look at the scan.



Spectre became Omnipotence Not just Omniscience. Omniscience , by definition, is just the ability to SEE and KNOW ALL...that's it ! Omniscience is NOT becoming one with all, as I already PROVED in my above post (please click the links, they will provide you with the correct definitions of Omniscience)


GalacticStorm will argue that Spectre became Omniscience, not Omnipotence, he is INCORRECT....I already proved why.




If you read the scan:




Spectre says:



"Within ME the BIRTH OF STARS...THE PRIMAL EXPLOSION SPREADS OUTWARDS.I AM EVERY PARTICLE OF IT !"



"Galaxies COSMOS, UNIVERSES..FILLING EVERY PART OF ME !"





Spectre BECAME ALL there is !



Becoming ALL THERE IS grants you automatic OMNIPOTENCE AND OMNISCIENCE, because you ARE ALL THERE IS, therefore you CONTROL AND KNOW ALL THERE IS !





Watch GS try to argue that this is "just hyperbole as well




Now as for your other question:




Consider that Spectre became all there is....DC's Multiverse (or Omniverse as some will attempt to argue)...so what ?


At the time of Classic Beyonder, the Marvel Multiverse was all there was. Classic Beyonder has power millions of times greater than that of the Multiverse, which was all there was


So....Spectre equalled all there is, and Classic Beyonder was millions of times more powerful than all there was....


You do the math !

Lord Urizen doing some serious OWNING!


It doesn't matter though, the intransigency will continue.

Originally posted by Galan007
We can assume all we want.

I'm just going by whats actually stated on that particular pannel.

And the scan I provided depicts Spectre with the greatest ammount of power he has ever achieved on pannel.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Spectre becomes one with Creation, making him more powerful than he has ever been before. He is connected with all that exists.

Omniversal telepathy is not the same thing as becoming one with all creation.


Omniversal Telepathy < Becoming One With All That Is


Get it GS ?

Spectre did not just SEE ALL...he BECAME ALL.....


There is no higher power than being the most powerful thing in existance for a one time being.















I agree



Good thing the narration about Classic Beyonder does not contradict the on-panel feats


You DO remember that Classic Beyonder was only accessing a tiny fragment of his power throughout the entire Secret Wars saga, right ?

You also remember how he played with the Marvel Multiverse (which was all that existed at the time) like a toy, at low power, and still had so much left over it was rediculous.....











1) Show scan

2) It's called a simile

3) It's very obvious when narration is exxagerating, and when narration is sincere:

"Wolverine is as fast AS lightning"


"Classic Beyonder retains his power which ISmore than millions of times the multiverse"


If you can't decipher the difference, then I can't help you any further....














Spectre scan:


Combining oneself with all that exists is surely a display of power.....




Beyonder scan:




Attaining full access to your infinite power is surely a display of power




Again:


















That's a good idea....haven't you done the same for Pheonix ?

Awesome reply! toot

Originally posted by Galan007
To be fair, Beyonder allowed Doom to take his powers.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If thats the truth then show the scan which actually states the point.


meh ... not to mention Doom was being KEPT ALIVE by Beyonder during this crucial time.
http://img456.imageshack.us/img456/8105/doomvsbeyonder3pd6.th.jpg

Do you know why?

Because Beyonder coerced that entire event.




This Doctor Doom, that was in Secret Wars the first series,

that WASN'T really Doom,(well technically it was but read) that was a Future self of Doom plucked from a point in the Timestream that DID NOT EXIST YET, courtesy of the Beyonder,


Not only does Beyonder use a Doom from a NON-Existent Future to fight in the Secret Wars saga, (which now explains HOW Doom was able to Manipulate Galactus's vast technology)


but the funny thing is Doom's body was already DEAD, he had been dead since FF #260, when the FF, Doom and Silver Surfer took on Terrax.


The insane part is,


Beyonder plucked Doom from a Future that Beyonder himself was going to CREATE for Doom FAR AFTER the Secret Wars series.
http://img485.imageshack.us/img485/6926/b1qw4.th.jpg

This is ALL well into the SECRET WARS II series by the way,



Now Beyonder sends Doom back in time to the Secret Wars drama that was already played out, just to re-install Doom's mind/spirit with his original body,



Beyonder speeds up that seperate event in time (Secret Wars I)and ends up in the NOW, with a fully revived and renewd DOOM.
http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/3189/b2pe0.th.jpg
Beyonder enjoyed setting up humans, with the notion of control and power, just to see what they would do with it....it happened several times.



Here is Doom himself, recounting the Event
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/3218/beondersenddoomtopastvw5.th.jpg

Another INCREDIBLE Beyonder FEAT:


The Full Story behind the Doom incident:



Beyonder took Doom from a Future that DID NOT Exist, a Future that Beyonder himself had to Create.

Because Doom's body was Dead and his mind was elsewhere in that man's body during the Secret Wars I series.

Beyonder couldn't find Doom anywhere on the physical plane or the astral, so Beyonder plucked him from a Future that DID NOT Exist because well....Doom was DEAD.


If Beyonder would not have sent Doom back to the FIRST Secret Wars during the Secret Wars II series, the Timestream would have shattered, and Marvel would have been ERASED.


Beyonder plucks Doom from the Future to place him in the Secret Wars series version 1.
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5411/bpluckedd1uf6.th.jpg



When Beyonder plucked Doom from the future...it was a future that had not taken place yet (NON-EXISTENT)
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/6317/bkillstimelr9.th.jpg



This created a Time-Loop that could shatter the entire TimeStream and ALL that came before it
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8726/bkillstime2ah6.th.jpg



So Beyonder had to re-create Doom's original body.
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1633/bpluckedd2cj3.th.jpg


Beyonder Merged Doom's body with Doom's mind.


Then he sent Doom back to the FIRST Secret Wars to allow that to play out thus repairing that Time-Loop
http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/1701/bpluckedd3nw6.th.jpg



"clear the area before the Loop is closed, and Doom Re-appears"
http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/1128/bpluckedd4pa2.th.jpg



"Beyonder created a Self-Perpetuating Circle in Time"...
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1434/bpluckedd5es7.th.jpg



To fill in the Space in Time that NEVER Existed.
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7867/bpluckedd6iv2.th.jpg



Had Beyonder killed Doom without re-introducing him to the Past,

the TimeStream as we know it would have SHATTERED, (ALL of MARVEL)


Because Beyonder took him from a Future that did NOT EXIST.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Couple of questions and thank for your response.

You left out omnipresent also when describing Spectre ^^.

Secondly, is not infinity = infinity?

If Spectre suddenly became all there is AND Beyonder was all there was, doesn't "All there is" = "All there was"?

The answer is that infinity = infinity does not always hold true. This is because there are different levels of infinity.

For example, you can have an infinite number of integers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.). In math, you can have convergence, where an infinite sum equals a real number.

Ok let me explain it this way. If you have a 3 dimensional object, when breaking it down into two dimensional planes sandwiched on top of one another, it could be said that you need an infinite number of planes in order to make up the 3d object, and the 3d object could have a defined height.

Check out this link, if you got Flash 8:
http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php

It explains the idea of multiple levels of reality stacked on top of each other, alternate timelines, etc..

Originally posted by BobbyD
Secondly, is not infinity = infinity?

NOT in Marvel Comics:


Cosmic Cubes, Kubik and Kosmos explain:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8929/infipo9.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/958/infi2lt7.th.jpg


"Thus are demonstrated TWO LEVELS of Infinity, there are of course, an INFINITE number MORE"
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg




Dr Strange explains:


"the very Concept of Infinity is relative, Numbers are Infinite, so are odd Numbers, yet by definition, there are Twice as many Numbers as there are odd Numberse
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/4600/infinitymoremx9.th.jpg
"One "Infinity" is included within a larger "Infinity"

Originally posted by Kutulu
The answer is that infinity = infinity does not always hold true. This is because there are different levels of infinity.

For example, you can have an infinite number of integers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.). In math, you can have convergence, where an infinite sum equals a real number.

Ok let me explain it this way. If you have a 3 dimensional object, when breaking it down into two dimensional planes sandwiched on top of one another, it could be said that you need an infinite number of planes in order to make up the 3d object, and the 3d object could have a defined height.

Check out this link, if you got Flash 8:
http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php

It explains the idea of multiple levels of reality stacked on top of each other, alternate timelines, etc..

Correct. But in your example, ONLY infinity does not equal infinity because there is a finite/definate amount as you see it. .....because we'd never know where either stops on the scale towards infinity. I would this to be true, IF I saw it the same way.

But this is not the case, (assuming that Spectre could be God/The Presence for a moment in time) we're speaking of The Supreme Being. Spectre with the embodiment of ALL of God's powers AT THE FULLEST LEVELS is undefeatable......if Spectre uses them correctly, which is another argument altogether.

Let me put it this way: Jim Carrey in Bruce Almighty. This is analogous. ....could do anything he wanted. ....is just as strong as Pre-retconned Beyonder if that makes any sense.

Thus, draw. You pose compelling, good points, but I just don't see it any other way.

God in your high school gym, is still as powerful as the same God of the Milky Way Galaxy. 2 different realities-yet same power amount of power in each (actually, the same) being.

If you disagree then you're ultimately saying God does not equal God. ...and what you're ultimately saying is pre-retconned Beyonder is more powerful than the Presence, which....which simply cannot be.

I know in the comic world, things like this can be left to interpretation, but if I am wrong, than it should not be this way.

Originally posted by BobbyD
Couple of questions and thank for your response.

You left out omnipresent also when describing Spectre ^^.

Secondly, is not infinity = infinity?

If Spectre suddenly became all there is AND Beyonder was all there was, doesn't "All there is" = "All there was"?




I will help you with your dilemma:




On Spectre's behalf:




1) He became Omnipotent, (and yes, Omnipresent), meaning he became and existed as everything that was DC (multiverse, DC has not yet shown to contain an omniverse)

2) Even if DC has an omniverse, there is no concrete proof that DC's multiverse is infinite. DC's multiverse may be limitted in terms of space and dimension

3) Being omnipotent or omnipresent doesn't necessarily you are infinite. Spectre may have infinite power (or strength) at his disposal, but if DC's multiverse is limitted, then his omnipotence only applies to everything that is DC....his omnipotence will not surpass beyond that, because there is nothing beyond that...

However, within his multiverse, which he became one with, he can do whatever he wants to it, however he wants to it




4) No matter what, Spectre is still subject to the laws and permission of the Presence. He cannot act without the Presence's approval. Even if he has infinite power at this point, he cannot defy the Presence.





On Beyonder's behalf



1) Classic Beyonder not only had infinite power at his disposal, he could do whatever the hell he wanted.


2) Living Tribunal could do nothing against Classic Beyonder, despite his own immense power (mind you, LT is far more powerful than the Infinity Gems, yet he didn't stand a chance against Classic Beyonder)


3) Classic Beyonder violated Marvel's entire cosmology. He f*cked around with Marvel like it was a toy, and Marvel's existance (which was the multiverse at that time) was 100% at his mercy.


4) Classic Beyonder is bound to no one's rules. TOAA, who is said to be the comic book writer, is the only being who can do ne thing to Classic Beyonder. Since TOAA's reasoning, involvement, and dominion are unclear, we could only conlude that TOAA either:


-stayed out of the Secret Wars for whatver reason

-made Classic Beyonder do all these things, because he...created Classic Beyonder and the Secret Wars saga lol




5) Classic Beyonder did all of the things he did, with a tiny fraction of his power, and even though he intentionally and dramatically LIMITTED HIMSELF he STILL was too powerful for Marvel's entire Multiverse !



Reminder: Multiverse was ALL THAT EXISTED at the time....there was no "omniverse" in Marvel at the time, the Multiverse represented ALL of Marvel's existance, and Classic Beyonder has power millions of times greater than Marvel's...entirety....

Get it ?



6) Classic Beyonder's only weakness was his desire to find out....what desire was....

Originally posted by BobbyD
If you disagree then you're ultimately saying God does not equal God.

God does not always equal God...



Ahura Mazda (from Dawn) is no where on par with the Presence from DC comics....Yahweh from Vertigo (another God) is not on par with TOAA or Presence, all he did was create several universes....


It depends what you mean by "god"


If you mean "supreme being" it depends what they are supreme being of....

I am the supreme being of my dorm.....so what ? How would I fare against the dictator of China ?




Originally posted by BobbyD
...and what you're ultimately saying is pre-retconned Beyonder is more powerful than the Presence, which....which simply cannot be.


Why not ?


What exactly is the Presence? What exactly is Classic Beyonder.... ?



We don't truly know who is more powerful, in fact, I'm quite convinced that since TOAA is the comic book writer, and since Presence is a comic book concept, that TOAA is techincally more powerful....but that's another debate, I'd rather leave alone

My head hurts.