Forgiveness

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Da preacher
So the priest in the church always told me when I was A kid, I was forced 2 go to the church by my school but anyway, that's not my point.

They always said that God will forgive thy sins 70x70 times then my question is, why does hell exist then?

If God forgives everybody like the priest said then he should forgive them instead of punishing them.

Another contradiction in the bible.

(I'm atheist btw., cuz I feel embarrassed even writing this.)

Storm
It' s 7 x 70 times wink

"Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times (or seventy times seven).'" (Matthew 18:21-22)

Wesker
Damn, so there's a limit? If I said "God damn" seventy six times, I'd be on his last good grace!

Storm
The numbers Jesus used were symbolic of infinity. We must forgive unconditionally and infinitely.

Wesker
Naturally. But then there's literal people out there who are on that last good grace and developing ulcers.

soleran30
Hell was made by God for all those Heathens that were born before Christ's salvation!

Seriously I wonder if cavemen like fire now biotch.

Arachnoidfreak
Originally posted by Storm
It' s 7 x 70 times wink

"Peter came to Jesus and asked, 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered, 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times (or seventy times seven).'" (Matthew 18:21-22)

Damn, the Bible doesn't know math!

77 isnt even close to 490!

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
Damn, the Bible doesn't know math!

77 isnt even close to 490!

What? Did you think Jesus could do calculus? He was the son of god, not a mathematician. laughing jk

debbiejo
Makes you wonder if grunting cavemen even knew what hell was........

shaber
The original poster has rather missed the point of the little sermon! He is clearly not the brightest.

Da preacher
How dare U.
I'm just showing a contradiction in the bible.

debbiejo
If were not careful the big angry god will eat us when we die.eek!


As Storm says it's 70 X 7.

Yep, and according to different beliefs Jesus went and preached to them in hell to get them out, though if you read through some Gnostic's they were all having some conversations down there when they woke up in the darkness. Something like "Hey, who are you?...Wow, you're Adam, oh I've heard of you.".....Honestly...

Lord Urizen
So for the Three mainstream Monotheistic Religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is there truly a Time Limit on your ability to be Forgiven ?



There was an amazing quote I found in some novel stating, "If to Forgive was Divine, then there would be No Hell"


If you are truly Sorry In Hell, will God eventually forgive you ? Or will he forever scorn you ?

Shakyamunison
Good job Lord Urizen. Finally a good thread from you. thumb up

There is no such thing as hell, so has god already forgiven us?

muslimscholar
according to islam a muslim with the smallest faith will go to heaven but first will be punished those who are not muslim will stay in hell forever

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by muslimscholar
according to islam a muslim with the smallest faith will go to heaven but first will be punished those who are not muslim will stay in hell forever

in that case I really hope I go to hell

beinging in heaven with a bunch of people who hate me sounds like it would suck

wait a second don't muslims repect the christian and jewish scriptures too?
If so then we atleast get to come out for a while and wreak haovk on earth.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Good job Lord Urizen. Finally a good thread from you. thumb up

There is no such thing as hell, so has god already forgiven us?





Nonsense...all my threads are good stick out tongue

Fatima
After death there is no forgiveness..If you wanna say sorry for god say it now big grin

debbiejo
^^ With god all things are possible right, then why is this not possible?

Fatima
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
in that case I really hope I go to hell

beinging in heaven with a bunch of people who hate me sounds like it would suck

wait a second don't muslims repect the christian and jewish scriptures too?
If so then we atleast get to come out for a while and wreak haovk on earth.




I read in the Quran that people who belive in god and judement day will go to heaven ..christians and jews too .. smile

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
I read in the Quran that people who belive in god and judement day will go to heaven ..christians and jews too .. smile


What about Atheists ? And Homos ?

Symmetric Chaos
Athiests get a dice roll. And homos go straigt to hell.

muslimscholar (thats what he'll has and then tell you why you go with them)

Symmetric Chaos
wait mabey its the other way around I'm not sure

Fatima
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What about Atheists ? And Homos ?


Only the people of the book .. smile

Homos...? No ..

debbiejo
"For where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also." Your treasure is were your heart lays.

muslimscholar
Originally posted by Fatima
I read in the Quran that people who belive in god and judement day will go to heaven ..christians and jews too .. smile

could u post the verse?

muslimscholar
Originally posted by Funkadelic
How dare U.
I'm just showing a contradiction in the bible.

there are many contradictions in the bible mate get used to it

Fatima
Originally posted by muslimscholar
could u post the verse?


I read it few weeks ago , so I dont remember the verse .

I also asked many scholars , In the end its up to god ...nobody know ..

muslimscholar
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So for the Three mainstream Monotheistic Religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is there truly a Time Limit on your ability to be Forgiven ?



ya there is a time limit to be forgiven in islam when the sun rises from west to east the doors of forgivness will be closed

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by muslimscholar
ya there is a time limit to be forgiven in islam when the sun rises from west to east the doors of forgivness will be closed




So then I am correct. God's Forgivness is limitted.....

So much for "unconditional love" roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Fatima
Only the people of the book .. smile

Homos...? No ..




1) What do you mean people of the book ?


2) Why not ?

theendisnear
Originally posted by Funkadelic
So the priest in the church always told me when I was A kid, I was forced 2 go to the church by my school but anyway, that's not my point.

They always said that God will forgive thy sins 70x70 times then my question is, why does hell exist then?

If God forgives everybody like the priest said then he should forgive them instead of punishing them.

Another contradiction in the bible.

(I'm atheist btw., cuz I feel embarrassed even writing this.)

There's a difference between discipline and punishment. God does not forever punish those who love him. But like any loving parent, he does discipline them.

Symmetric Chaos
what's the line between punishment and dicipline

if my parents diciplined me by setting me on fire and letting monsters torture me I would consider that punishment

theendisnear
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
what's the line between punishment and dicipline

if my parents diciplined me by setting me on fire and letting monsters torture me I would consider that punishment

John Chapter 1: verses 4 and 5

4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The light can be represented as "discipline", and the darkness as "punishment." When one earnestly seeks the light at the end of a tunnel, they receive it. The further one moves away from the light, the more difficult it is to comprehend that the light was ever there. When one turns away from this light completely, then only darkness remains for them. A darkness that they have now willingly embraced.

debbiejo
One doesn't need to be of a certain belief to see the light.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by theendisnear
John Chapter 1: verses 4 and 5

4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The light can be represented as "discipline", and the darkness as "punishment." When one earnestly seeks the light at the end of a tunnel, they receive it. The further one moves away from the light, the more difficult it is to comprehend that the light was ever there. When one turns away from this light completely, then only darkness remains for them. A darkness that they have now willingly embraced.

yes thats very nice now answer my question

if god TORTURES ME FOREVER in hell isn't that punishment?

It seems that you view detachment from the divine as the ultimate punishment. I do not so such is not punishment for me.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Nonsense...all my threads are good stick out tongue

And you are delusional. stick out tongue

muslimscholar
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So then I am correct. God's Forgivness is limitted.....

So much for "unconditional love" roll eyes (sarcastic)

gods forgivness is not limmited the time to be forgiven is limmited because you could die any moment

Funkadelic
Originally posted by shaber
The original poster has rather missed the point of the little sermon! He is clearly not the brightest.

The bible says that God will forgive you infinitely (7x70 times) then why is there A hell? As hell is definately a punishment.

I don't understand what I missed.

Nellinator
You missed that you have to ask for forgiveness. If you ask though, God is always willing.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Nellinator
You missed that you have to ask for forgiveness. If you ask though, God is always willing.

"God can I be forgiven?"
"Of course"
"Thanks. Can I still not believe in your power?"
"Sure."

Nellinator
That doesn't quite work. You have to be seeking God with all your heart according to Jeremiah 29:13 if he is going to listen to you.

Symmetric Chaos
"God why do you hate people that don't believe in you"
"I'm just a vindictive *******"

debbiejo
I don't have a problem with god, it's just his followers..

Nellinator
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
"God why do you hate people that don't believe in you"
"I'm just a vindictive *******"
If God hated you He would not want to forgive you, or send his son to die for you. Whoever told you that God hates you is probably come under harsher wrath than any nonbeliever. I think God truly hates it when people twist his message.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Nellinator
If God hated you He would not want to forgive you, or send his son to die for you. Whoever told you that God hates you is probably come under harsher wrath than any nonbeliever. I think God truly hates it when people twist his message.

God didn't say he hates me he said he's "a vindictive *******"

But really I'm just trying to make a point
If you try to define the qualities of God it becomes a deity in the image of man

By the way what counts as twisting Gods message?

Nellinator
Indirect implication, so don't play semantics with me please. I hate semantics.

This may be partially true, but if we define God's qualities based solely on the Bible we avoid man made images of God.

The belief that Jesus was not divine would be a prime example.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Nellinator
Indirect implication, so don't play semantics with me please. I hate semantics.


but I love semantics

Originally posted by Nellinator

This may be partially true, but if we define God's qualities based solely on the Bible we avoid man made images of God.


except that it is people that wrote the bible

especially the gospels Mathew, Mark, Luke, John etc were all people not God

secondly everyone must interperet the bible in some way which leads to redefinition of God for every individual

I know this is tautological but (in my view) there is no objective uninfluenced image of God

Nellinator
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
but I love semantics



except that it is people that wrote the bible

especially the gospels Mathew, Mark, Luke, John etc were all people not God

secondly everyone must interperet the bible in some way which leads to redefinition of God for every individual

I know this is tautological but (in my view) there is no objective uninfluenced image of God
You are right there is no uninfluenced image of God, but there are many things that are clear enough that we can understand the nature of God and then determine what amongst the grayer areas fit the nature of God and those that don't. If we don't understands something we must fall back on what we do understand and work from there. As to your critique of the gospels I will simply say that I actually learned more about Jesus from the OT than from the NT, but that's probably because I love the OT as I was Jewish before I was Christian.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Nellinator
You are right there is no uninfluenced image of God, but there are many things that are clear enough that we can understand the nature of God and then determine what amongst the grayer areas fit the nature of God and those that don't.


unfortunately contradictions can make that kinda hard

even the simple stuff like does god love athiests or even the Jews is really tough to figure out

Originally posted by Nellinator

As to your critique of the gospels I will simply say that I actually learned more about Jesus from the OT than from the NT, but that's probably because I love the OT as I was Jewish before I was Christian.

I was not critiqing the Gospels most of them have very interesting musings on the nature of God and Jesus

all I meant was they don't come straight from god

Nellinator
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
unfortunately contradictions can make that kinda hard

even the simple stuff like does god love athiests or even the Jews is really tough to figure out



I was not critiqing the Gospels most of them have very interesting musings on the nature of God and Jesus

all I meant was they don't come straight from god
If you follow the whole fall back on the stuff that you know thing and then look at the perceived contradiction, the contradictions are no longer contradictions, but simply harsher point within the nature of God.

God loves everybody, I think thats pretty simple. Though God sometimes gets angry there is no evidence that God ever hated anyone.

I know, but that is really a critique, not necessarily a bad one though. Critiques like consequences can be good, bad, or neutral.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Nellinator
If you follow the whole fall back on the stuff that you know thing and then look at the perceived contradiction, the contradictions are no longer contradictions, but simply harsher point within the nature of God.


thats an intersting way to look at it

Originally posted by Nellinator

God loves everybody, I think thats pretty simple. Though God sometimes gets angry there is no evidence that God ever hated anyone.


you say that, JIA says that, the preacher at my church says that but then their are people like marchello who argue almost the exact opposite

Nellinator
If Marchello said that God hates any person, then he is wrong. However, God hates sin, but that applies to the sins of both believers and non-believers and is, therefore, a neutral amongst all people.

Storm
Love the sinner, hate the sin?

Alfheim
Originally posted by Fatima
I read in the Quran that people who belive in god and judement day will go to heaven ..christians and jews too .. smile

Yeah well what about pagans and heathens? miffed

Nellinator
Originally posted by Storm
Love the sinner, hate the sin?
Yep.

Storm
It is a rather arrogant and condescending thing to say.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Storm
Love the sinner, hate the sin?


Nellinator, maybe we shouldn't hate period.


Hatred is a major problem, and is just as dangerous and cruelty and sadism.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Nellinator, maybe we shouldn't hate period.


Hatred is a major problem, and is just as dangerous and cruelty and sadism.
If you understand the context of it, it is not necessarily a bad thing. People lie all the time. I hate lying which is a good thing because by hating the lying I will not lie (as long as I'm not a hypocrite). If I hated the people that lied I would hate everyone and be a lonely bitter person which I am not. Just like you hate hypocrisy, I hate sin. It is not a bad thing as it motivates us to become above the sin.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
If you understand the context of it, it is not necessarily a bad thing. People lie all the time. I hate lying which is a good thing because by hating the lying I will not lie (as long as I'm not a hypocrite). If I hated the people that lied I would hate everyone and be a lonely bitter person which I am not. Just like you hate hypocrisy, I hate sin. It is not a bad thing as it motivates us to become above the sin.




You beleive lying is an absolute evil ?



If I lied to an assassin as to your whereabouts, you would say I did the wrong thing ?


If a girl I think is ugly asks me If I think she is pretty, and I lie and say she is very pretty, it would be wrong for me to say that ?



Yeah I hate hypocrisy, but i don't try and justify my hatred for it.....that hatred is toxic. My anger towards self-righteous hypocrisy only hurts me, and does NO GOOD....

My hatred and anger for the corruption I see in mainstream Christianity is NOT a positive thing.....it truly eats away at me, i would be much happier if i simply ignored it. It causes me great anger, and with this anger I tend to cause further negativity by bashing Christianity and making fun of the Faith.....thereby promoting more conflict....




Likewise, your hatred of "sin", your hatred of lying, homosexuality, etc. is just as toxic, and can do no more good than my hatred for hypocristy and injustice can.......

Nellinator
My hatred for sin does not eat away at me however. Perhaps we should define and seperate the hatred of sin from the 'toxic' hatred you are speaking of?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
My hatred for sin does not eat away at me however. Perhaps we should define and seperate the hatred of sin from the 'toxic' hatred you are speaking of?


My "toxic hatred" is more like a powerful anger. An anger that is a parasite, which feeds on my energies....which then causes me to say things in a way I would not do in a rational moment.


It also distracts me from my blessings, and causes me to tend to ignore the things I love and cherish....


Your hatred of Sin may not be toxic to you, but it may be toxic to another...


Your hatred of homosexuality for example, reminds me everyday of how many people will not take my relationships seriously, or see my love as somehow inferior to thier own, unworthy of the same respect.

If you had a gay son, your hatred of what you deem "sin" will only cause a rift between you and he.....a poison that if not overcome, will destroy the happiness you both could have.

Nellinator
If I had a gay son I would undoubtedly have an issue with his sin. However, it would be a simple one time statement. I would say to him,
"I want you to change, if you want to change I am willing to help you in that endeavor." That is all.

Funkadelic
Y do people always talk about gay men & never about gay women?

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