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I was just thinking, what if it had been NJO Luke, a more powerful version of Luke, against DE Sidious? Granted, Luke won, but winning by channeling the entire lightside of the Force isn't exactly winning by one's own merit, is it? So now it's DE Sidious vs. NJO Luke. All-out fight; anything goes. Takes place in the Sith Academy on Korriban.

Luke is the most powerful Force user and Jedi in existence. He kills Sidious.

By NJO, Luke has already surpassed every other force user ever. He wins.

Luke wins; he's a better lightsaber duelist, he's stronger with the force, and DE Sidious' true strengths mostly lie in sith rituals.

Sidious is very powerful, but Luke has surpassed him by NJO.

NJO Luke will win, with some trouble, though, but by NJO Luke could beat anybody except Darth Nihilus (I'm not going to debate this, though, so don't start - it'd be a waste of your time).

NJO Luke would. LotF Luke is really starting to scare me, though. Stupid author inconsistencies.

New thread, LOTF Luke vs. Wicket W. Warrick! Due to inconsistencies, Wicket is victorious!

...

But yeah, as said by Darthsith19, NJO Luke can crush quite a few people.

LOTF Luke had trouble with Lumiya for god's sakes. I thought he reaches his peak in either DN or LOTF>

He did. For the last time, that was just a poorly written bit and only because Lumiya got in a lucky shot when Luke was highly distracted

So where does he reach his peak.. DN or LOTF?

Using Sidious as an example, he hadn't reached anywhere near his peak when he was Luke's age, so I'm guessing Luke hasn't reached his peak yet. Though, when considering that Luke has been in constant war pretty much ever since he became a jedi, whereas Sidious was a closet sith lord for most of the time, Luke would most likely reach his peak a bit earlier. I'd still say that we've yet to see Luke reach his peak, it should only be a matter of time.

Luke hasn't reached his peak as of LOTF. He's still going to get stronger.

I'd have to say that Sidious wins this one. Luke may be slightly better in lightsaber combat, but Sidious is a good bit better with the force.

What the hell? How is Palpatine better with the Force?

When has Luke ever done anything more than Sidious?

Probably around the times he can decimate an army of Vong and tear the engines out of a Star Destroyer casually?

It's been forty years since Luke fought Palpatine. They were only close then because they were respective avatars of respective sides, but on their natural abilities, Luke's surpassed Palpatine.
He's-pretty easily- the strongest being in Star Wars.

Seriously glentract you're going to have to stop this anti Luke nonsense. Stop hanging out on EOD as those guys know nothing. I've read all the feats Luke has done and it easily surpasses Sidious. By NJO he already is more powerful, and if these inconsistencies didn't occur, he'd be a force god by LOTF..

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Probably around the times he can decimate an army of Vong

After re-examining TUF I'm not convinced that Luke killed an army of Vong. He managed to get to the top of the ship, but how many Vong did he kill to get there? It's been speculated that he killed thousands, but I am no longer so sure that it was really such a large number.

Also, Sidious killed approximately 600 stormtroopers with a single blast of Force Lightning a fairly large amount of time prior to ROTJ. By DE he is FAR more powerful and could easily kill several times that number with a single blast.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
and tear the engines out of a Star Destroyer casually?

1. When did Luke do this?

2. Sidious decimated an entire fleet of Republic ships with his Force Storm. I think it's safe to say that doind so required more power than tearing the engines out of a Star Destroyer.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's been forty years since Luke fought Palpatine. They were only close then because they were respective avatars of respective sides, but on their natural abilities, Luke's surpassed Palpatine.
He's-pretty easily- the strongest being in Star Wars.

Once Luke starts doing things that are more impressive than what Sidious has done, I'll believe you. But until then, he's not the strongest.

Oh wow, because you don't believe it, then he's not the strongest. Once again Glentract, Luke represents Anakin at full potential, so I'm sorry to say that he IS the strongest, and his feats during the Vong War and the DN crisis and the Swarm War surpass anything Sidious did.. So try again.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh wow, because you don't believe it, then he's not the strongest. Once again Glentract, Luke represents Anakin at full potential, so I'm sorry to say that he IS the strongest, and his feats during the Vong War and the DN crisis and the Swarm War surpass anything Sidious did.. So try again.

You can just STFU. You NEVER make any arguments of your own and only serve to spam. You're not worth my time.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
After re-examining TUF I'm not convinced that Luke killed an army of Vong. He managed to get to the top of the ship, but how many Vong did he kill to get there? It's been speculated that he killed thousands, but I am no longer so sure that it was really such a large number.
Glentract, this is ridiculous here....he'd have to hack through the ones on the ground level and the ones on the SUpreme Overlord's ship...in Destiny's Way there were thousands among thousands on a single level alone

That was 100, actually



Luke didn't even have to sweat about that.
And it was in the Stackpole duology.
I'm not denying Palpatine's strength, though, I'm the last person to do that.


This is fundamentally different: Lucas's acknowledged Luke's potential to be greater than Palpatine and they were equals at their purest forms in DE.
Seriously Glentract, putting Palp above Luke here and now makes no sense. Luke is simply not as flashy, but when he does use his power, it tends to be pretty damn extreme.
He's the strongest being in Star Wars with Palpatine in second. If the two fought again, they'd achieve that little avatar status again and Luke's the great warrior there or without

Uhh... okay, I feel stupid for putting this up...

What version of Luke would be more suitable, no lightside channeling allowed?

When you come up with 1, just in case I'm asleep, the thread's changed to that.

Don't be trollin' me man Sexy. He was only giving an argument.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You can just STFU. You NEVER make any arguments of your own and only serve to spam. You're not worth my time.


Says the moron who copies arguments from Nai, Illustrious, and IKC verbatim. STFU with your stupidity and KOTOR fanboyism, there's a reason some people aren't here anymore. The minute you learn to formulate your own argument, I'll listen and so will everyone else. Right now you just sound like a putz.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Glentract, this is ridiculous here....he'd have to hack through the ones on the ground level and the ones on the SUpreme Overlord's ship...in Destiny's Way there were thousands among thousands on a single level alone

When was he ever shown fighting a lot of them on the ground?

When was he ever stated to kill a number even close to all of them on the ship? I have new evidence that points to Luke being FAR weaker than is currently thought.

"Let the Jedi come to us." That is directly from Shimrra in response to a report that three Jedi are coming towards his Citadel.

"It wasn't until the eighth level that Luke and his niece and nephew met with resistance." This is a direct quote from the narrator. So we know for a fact that they didn't fight anyone in that battle until they were almost all of the way there.

"In most places the stairway wasn't wide enough for the two people to stand abreast" This is about a page after the previous quote I gave. As you can see, in most of the Citadel the Vong could only have attacked them one at a time. This is why it's so probably that he killed only a very small percentage of the people onboard. This makes it even less likely that Luke killed the fabled 'thousands'.

Also note that Luke wasn't unscarred by the battle. Without healing from the other Jedi afterwards he probably would have died from his wounds.

If Sidious has been there he would have just dropped a Force Storm on the Citadel and killed Shimrra and all the Vong in it in 30 seconds...tops.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That was 100, actually

I believe that he killed a battalion of them. Wouldn't that be 600?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke didn't even have to sweat about that.
And it was in the Stackpole duology.
I'm not denying Palpatine's strength, though, I'm the last person to do that.

Which book was it in? I'd like to check the context of the situation.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
This is fundamentally different: Lucas's acknowledged Luke's potential to be greater than Palpatine and they were equals at their purest forms in DE.
Seriously Glentract, putting Palp above Luke here and now makes no sense. Luke is simply not as flashy, but when he does use his power, it tends to be pretty damn extreme.
He's the strongest being in Star Wars with Palpatine in second. If the two fought again, they'd achieve that little avatar status again and Luke's the great warrior there or without

Again, when has Luke ever done things beyond what Palpatine has done? I'm mainly talking about Force Powers here, as Luke is slightly better with a saber but Sidious is a good bit stronger in the Force, more than enough to make up for his lesser saber skills.

Sidious' true strengths lie in sith rituals, things he wouldn't be able to pull off in this scenario.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
When was he ever shown fighting a lot of them on the ground?
Coruscant?

No, Glentract. No. Even if you did, the NJO sourcebook calls him the strongest force of light the galaxy had ever seen

There are a hell of a lot of levels and we know how well the ship is guarded from Destiny's Way. Shimrra just let his guards come to him. Seriously, you're reaching for the sky here

You're comparing one passage to the rest of the ship.
That's rather fallacious

PRobably because of Shimrra's amphistaff. Shimraa on his own could've killed many Jedi. And Luke didn't meet Shimrra fresh.

Unfair comparison. Luke does not use Force Storms that require tapping into the Dark Side at full capacity.
And Palpatine vs. the entire Vong army is really, really pushing it



The number is 100, given by Trachta.



The first two stackpole ones.
Let me give you the context: Luke does it casually and without even thinking about it later


Ok, prove it.
The DE audiobook calls them, at their bests at that point, 'twin divinities', and equal combatants.

You're trying too hard, Glentract. Luke is the strongest being in Star Wars. Lucas's confirmed his potential, we've seen his abilities, he can root himself in the heart of the Force in an instant-that is FAR above anything else-, he's been shown to walk on lava, toss around capital ships...

Seriously, stop trying to do the impossible here

You're done Glentract. Seek advice from the EOD crowd before reposting.

Darth Sexy, quit trolling.


Coruscant?

I've already shown evidence that shows that Luke DIDN'T fight the fabled 'thousands' of Yuuzhan Vong. And regardless, Sidious could have done better in his place.

No, Glentract. No. Even if you did, the NJO sourcebook calls him the strongest force of light the galaxy had ever seen

Yeah, strongest force of LIGHT. Sidious is the strongest force of DARK. Unless you have evidence that the light is stronger than the Dark, I don't see your point. We already know that Luke is the strongest Jedi ever; GL confirmed it personally.

There are a hell of a lot of levels and we know how well the ship is guarded from Destiny's Way. Shimrra just let his guards come to him. Seriously, you're reaching for the sky here

Now whats this about letting his guards come to him?

And again, you're ASSUMING that he fought everyone on every level. To say that he did is ridiculous. And again, Sidious could have done better.

You're comparing one passage to the rest of the ship.
That's rather fallacious

Why would this passage be any different from the other ones? To assume that it is different is more fallacious.

PRobably because of Shimrra's amphistaff. Shimraa on his own could've killed many Jedi. And Luke didn't meet Shimrra fresh.

What does Shimrra's amphistaff have to do with it, exactly? Fighting Shimrra was part of the feat, so you can't use it as an excuse. And what do you think Sidious would have done if he came up to Shimrra in a fight? I'm pretty sure that he would have just killed him with a blast of Force Lightning.

Unfair comparison. Luke does not use Force Storms that require tapping into the Dark Side at full capacity.
And Palpatine vs. the entire Vong army is really, really pushing it

That is why Sidious is stronger.

The number is 100, given by Trachta.

Okay, you can have this point.

The first two stackpole ones.
Let me give you the context: Luke does it casually and without even thinking about it later

It's not in the first one, I checked the entire book (I have it in e-book.), and I couldn't find it anywhere in the second one. You have a page number? I normally wouldn't ask, but I don't understand the situation at all. Why would Luke rip the engines out of a Star Destroyer? The Empire is an ally.

Ok, prove it.
The DE audiobook calls them, at their bests at that point, 'twin divinities', and equal combatants.

You're trying too hard, Glentract. Luke is the strongest being in Star Wars. Lucas's confirmed his potential, we've seen his abilities, he can root himself in the heart of the Force in an instant-that is FAR above anything else-, he's been shown to walk on lava, toss around capital ships...

Seriously, stop trying to do the impossible here

But I love trying to do the impossible...

1. Luke has the highest potential...however, he has yet to come close to reaching it. Sidious' biggest increase in power came in the 7 years between ROTJ and DE.

2. Luke does have amazing abilities...however, Sidious has more amazing ones.

3. What's so great about walking on lava? (This is just rehash of the abilities part, btw.)

4. When did Luke toss around capital ships? (This is just rehash of the abilities part, btw.)

5. Luke rooted himself in the heart of the Force. So what? How does this make him powerful? Where does it state that being at the heart of the Force is the most power thing?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Darth Sexy, quit trolling.


Coruscant?

I've already shown evidence that shows that Luke DIDN'T fight the fabled 'thousands' of Yuuzhan Vong. And regardless, Sidious could have done better in his place.

Oh really? Where? Just because you make a ridiculous argument, doesn't mean you've shown evidence. What's with this nonsense where everybody thinks they've provided an argument. Damn kids..

No, Glentract. No. Even if you did, the NJO sourcebook calls him the strongest force of light the galaxy had ever seen

Yeah, strongest force of LIGHT. Sidious is the strongest force of DARK. Unless you have evidence that the light is stronger than the Dark, I don't see your point. We already know that Luke is the strongest Jedi ever; GL confirmed it personally.
I hope you're referring to Yoda, who according to the NEC is what he is before Luke. Luke Skywalker is the true testament to the light side ultimately being more stronger than the Dark Side, as he is twice as powerful as Sidious in his prime.


You're right, he made himself invisible and went to the highest level.


I could read the rest of your meaningless crap but I would be wasting my time. Luke became what Anakin would have become, I saw the sources, so case closed. If you want to parade with your nonsensical bullshit, keep it on EOD, where it belongs.

Hmmm...I'm looking for some sort of logical argument in there...I can't find one. I'm not even sure who you're arguing against, me or Lightsnake. I don't believe you made it into UT, you're just not smart enough.

DS, I'm not a big fan of people at EoD, either, but chill. Anyways, for all of our viewers, the light side and dark side are equal. Neither "side" is more powerful than the other. Just it's users. Other than that, they are two omnipresent and opposing sides that will forever be locked in a constant battle.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Hmmm...I'm looking for some sort of logical argument in there...I can't find one. I'm not even sure who you're arguing against, me or Lightsnake. I don't believe you made it into UT, you're just not smart enough.

Wonderful, I have a moronic 13 year old responding to my post of you not being able to provide any logical arguments with "I know you are but what am I".. Way to go son, bravo. Now as lightsnake says, hush up and let the big boys talk until you get an education or common sense.

Anyways lets try this again for the reading impaired(Glentract).
Sidious>all other sith by DE..
Luke=Anakin
Anakin is twice as powerful as Sidious at their respective peaks, or 200%.. Therefore, Luke is twice as powerful as Sidious, or 200%. Therefore Luke>all other star wars characters. Make sure to read someone else's argument before you repost glentract.

Bravo, Darth Sexy. Bravo. You finally made an argument. I'm proud of you. But like all first tries, it needs some work. Namely, Luke hasn't reached hit potential. So sure, Luke DOES have more potential than Sidious, but Luke has no where near the knowledge, training time, physical ability (Luke is nearing 60, Sidious' DE body appears to be around 30), or experince that Sidious has. Regardless of it's failings, good job. You'll get better with practice.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Bravo, Darth Sexy. Bravo. You finally made an argument. I'm proud of you. But like all first tries, it needs some work. Namely, Luke hasn't reached hit potential. So sure, Luke DOES have more potential than Sidious, but Luke has no where near the knowledge, training time, physical ability (Luke is nearing 60, Sidious' DE body appears to be around 30), or experince that Sidious has. Regardless of it's failings, good job. You'll get better with practice.


And yet again the high school fool responds with "I know you are but what am I" by virtually copying my posts word for word. Should I go on or do I expect this post to be repeated? Lets break your weak argument down shall we?

By DN(excluding LOTF since by then its too obvious), Luke has trained with Sidious' holocrons, Sidious, his dark side compendium, the fallanassi, etc. I would say his dark side techniques are nowhere near Sidious(mainly because he's a sith), but as usual you miss the entire purpose. Anakin Skywalker studying with a lightsaber for only 10 years, was superior to Obiwan, and damn near everyone on the council, who have spent at least twice that time perfecting their skill. I guess the concepts of raw ability and potential ability continue to elude you. Luke=Anakin. Luke doesn't need to have studied as much as Sidious to be superior to him. Thank you, come again.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
By DN(excluding LOTF since by then its too obvious),

Here's a news flash for you genius. It NJO Luke.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Luke has trained with Sidious' holocrons, Sidious, his dark side compendium, the fallanassi, etc.

So what? Sidious has trained with MANY times the knowledge Luke has.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I would say his dark side techniques are nowhere near Sidious(mainly because he's a sith), but as usual you miss the entire purpose.

Oh do I? At least I know who is fighting who in this thread. And yes, Luke's Darkside techniques are nowhere near Sidious'.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Anakin Skywalker studying with a lightsaber for only 10 years, was superior to Obiwan, and damn near everyone on the council, who have spent at least twice that time perfecting their skill.

1. Anakin had been studying by 13 years as of ROTS. As of 12 years ROTS, Anakin was inferior to Nejaa Halcyon (check Jedi Trial for confirmation). Nejaa's weaker than Obi-wan, so Anakin hasn't improved to much faster than Obi-wan, who is no where near Sidious.

2. Obi-wan's potential is no where near Sidious' so he isn't a good person for comparison.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I guess the concepts of raw ability and potential ability continue to elude you. Luke=Anakin.

Raw ability and potential mean NOTHING without training.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Luke doesn't need to have studied as much as Sidious to be superior to him. Thank you, come again.

And you proved Luke better then Sidious where exactly? No, Luke doesn't need to study as much as Sidious to be better than him, but no where has it been shown that amount of studying he does have is enough to put him beyond Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Here's a news flash for you genius. It NJO Luke.
Here's a news flash for the reading impaired. You claim he didn't reach his potential in NJO, while I simply stated that at the very least, Luke might have reached his potential at NJO/DN. It wasn't a mistake, but you aren't very good at reading comprehension.




Quality>Quantity
Guy X with more raw potential can study less than Guy Y with less raw potential, and still learn more.




Well gee, could it be that he's NOT a sith? Hmmm..




Anakin by ROTS was the best raw saber duelist in the galaxy, having studied only 12 years as you say it, while the likes of Mace and Yoda(who are better because they are more experienced) have had 3x times more training. Thanks for proving my point.


And once again you missed the entire point.



And again you misseed the point.





Right well that's your opinion and as much as it means to you, it means very little to me and anyone else here without a valid argument(which you have yet to provide). However Luke has shown enough in the 15+ books before DN to be well ahead of Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Darth Sexy, quit trolling.


Coruscant?

I've already shown evidence that shows that Luke DIDN'T fight the fabled 'thousands' of Yuuzhan Vong. And regardless, Sidious could have done better in his place.
Once again: Luke doesn't use Force Storms. Irrelevant point. Moreover, you ignored a lot there. Espoecially with the whole ground battle first and Luke clearing out the top on his own

As pure avatars, Luke= Palpatine. As apart from that, Luke grew far stronger. GL also confirmed at top, Luke'd be twice as strong as Palpatine

Ok, so he did it with two other people.
Seriously, Glentract, stop this Force storm thing. Luke doesn't use techniques that require you becoming one with the Darkside

Read the rest. Faunus has dealt with this before

Because Shimrra's amhistaff dealt the almost fatal wound?
And Force lightning doesn't work on Shimrra....unlike Palpatine, Luke can access the Unifying Force

....did you turn into a Palpatine fan overnight? Seriously, this is getting odd...I guess I should be flattered and proud.

I don't have the NJO books, anymore.....it may've been in Vision of the Future or Spectre of the Past, check those?

Can you honestly prove that? Luke's had ages to reach his potential and giving his constant struggle and study?

Palp knows just about everything. However in raw power, Luke>Palpatine

The Jedi Durge killed by dropping in lava might have benefited

Read the DE audiobook? There's some crazy stuff-Luke destroys an army of advanced battle droids with a wave of his hand

Glentract....use some logic. The heart of the Force? The all mighty force itself?
Seriously, becoming one in the heart of the force itself. This made him the 'very essence of the immovable object'

Glentract, there shouldn't be a debate. Luke and Palp were borderline equals in their top forms...they fight again, they'll go straight back into that and Luke will win. Palpatine didn't use the Force and neither did Luke because they knew they were both beyond that, and 'Twin divinites, as different as night and day."

I'm the last person to downplay Palpatine, but he's second to Luke. Luke's simply not as ostentacious

@Darth Sexy

Here's a news flash for the reading impaired. You claim he didn't reach his potential in NJO, while I simply stated that at the very least, Luke might have reached his potential at NJO/DN. It wasn't a mistake, but you aren't very good at reading comprehension.

To bad you directly stated DN. Here's exactly what you said, "By DN(excluding LOTF since by then its too obvious), Luke has trained with Sidious' holocrons, Sidious, his dark side compendium, the fallanassi, etc." I don't see anything about NJO in there. Great job, liar.

Where's your evidence for him being anywhere near his peak? With 90 years of training Sidious had still not reached his potential. With 80 years of training Dooku still had not reached his potential. What makes you think that Luke is anywhere close to reaching his potential after less than 30 years of knowledge of the Force, with most of that being subpar training?

Quality>Quantity
Guy X with more raw potential can study less than Guy Y with less raw potential, and still learn more.

Where did you get this crappy idea? Potential has NOTHING to do with the number of techniques that you know. And note that Sidious has his fair share of more powerful/higher quality techniques because of his willingness to use the Darkside in a fight.

Well gee, could it be that he's NOT a sith? Hmmm..

Exactly my point. Sith have access to a larger number of offensive Force powers, giving Sidious a massive advantage in a fight against any lightsider.

Anakin by ROTS was the best raw saber duelist in the galaxy, having studied only 12 years as you say it, while the likes of Mace and Yoda(who are better because they are more experienced) have had 3x times more training. Thanks for proving my point.

Read my first sentence again. It was 13 years by ROTS.

1. What the heck is a 'raw' saber duelist?

2. Anakin is weaker than Mace or Yoda overall because of having less experince, which is exactly the same reason that Luke is weaker than Sidious.

3. Anakin was about eqaul to Obi-wan. Obi-wan had about 3 times more training time than Anakin. Obi-wan has less potential than Sidious, as Yoda stated that Obi-wan would never be powerful enough to defeat Sidious. So logically, Anakin advanced somewhere less than 3 times as fast as Sidious. Assuming that Luke and Anakin have equal potentials they would have advanced at the same rate. So by that same line of thinking, Luke is 30 years would advance to a level of power somewhere less than what Sidious would do in 90 years. Sidious has MORE THAN 90 years of training and so therefor is more powerful.

And once again you missed the entire point.

Elaborate then.

And again you misseed the point.

Then elaborate.

Right well that's your opinion and as much as it means to you, it means very little to me and anyone else here without a valid argument(which you have yet to provide). However Luke has shown enough in the 15+ books before DN to be well ahead of Sidious.

Riiiight. I'm pretty sure my opinion means a tad bit more then yours. However, this isn't my opinion, it's an argument based on fact. You ignoring the facts in no way detracts from my argument.



@Lightsnake

Once again: Luke doesn't use Force Storms. Irrelevant point. Moreover, you ignored a lot there. Espoecially with the whole ground battle first and Luke clearing out the top on his own

I thought I had addressed this earlier. Ah well, my mistake.

1. However, when was he ever shown fighting a lot of them on the ground? I've been searching through my e-book (avaliable at http://www.swtimeline.ru/?main=bNJO since you no longer have a physical copy) and I can't find any instance in which he killed a notable number of Yuuzhan Vong while on the ground.

2. Could you clearify what the 'top' is? Is it the top of the citadel? Well yes, he did fight his way to Shimrra, but from what I can tell he didn't kill everyone on ths ship.

I find a more likely number of Vong kills by Luke to be somewhere between 800 or 900 to perhaps as high as 1500. Not much more than 1500 if any higher than that at all.

3. Luke not using techniques like the Force Storm is a large portion of my reasoning for Sidious winning in a fight. Sidious is willing to use ALL techniques, including highly offensive Darkside powers. Luke is not, which would give Sidious a major advantage in a fight.

As pure avatars, Luke= Palpatine. As apart from that, Luke grew far stronger. GL also confirmed at top, Luke'd be twice as strong as Palpatine

I'm afraid I don't fully understand this whole avatar business. Care to explain it to me?

Ok, so he did it with two other people.
Seriously, Glentract, stop this Force storm thing. Luke doesn't use techniques that require you becoming one with the Darkside

Exactly my point. "Luke doesn't use techniques that require you becoming one with the Darkside " This gives Sidious a MAJOR advantage in a battle.

Because Shimrra's amhistaff dealt the almost fatal wound?
And Force lightning doesn't work on Shimrra....unlike Palpatine, Luke can access the Unifying Force

1. Okay, so say we drop the Shimrra portion of the fight and state that Luke can kill a thousand Vong without need of healing from others to stay alive, it doesn't put him beyond Sidious on it's own.

2. Why won't Sidious' Force Lightning work on Vong? It's my understandint that Lightning working on Vong is because it is a physical manifestation of the Force.

....did you turn into a Palpatine fan overnight? Seriously, this is getting odd...I guess I should be flattered and proud.

I admit, you have done a great job arguing for Sidious in the past. However, I just see Sidious defeating NJO Luke in a fight.

I don't have the NJO books, anymore.....it may've been in Vision of the Future or Spectre of the Past, check those?

I gave you a link earlier to a site with all of the NJO books in e-book. You could check there.

Ummm...neither of those books were written by Stackpole. They aren't even NJO books. I assume you mean the Dark Tide books. I can't find it in the DarK Tide 1 e-book and I can't find it anywhere in my Dark Tide 2 copy. I can't get the Dark Tide 2 e-book to work though. Maybe you could give it a try on your computer.

Can you honestly prove that? Luke's had ages to reach his potential and giving his constant struggle and study?

Luke has had less than a third of the time that Sidious has had and he has access to FAR less knowledge. Added to his lack of guidance over the years and there is absolutely zero reason to believe that Luke is anywhere close to reaching his potential as of NJO, especially since he gains a dramatic amount of power in the near decade after TUF and the DN books.

Palp knows just about everything. However in raw power, Luke>Palpatine

This is like saying that AOTC Anakin would defeat ROTS Sidious. Anakin had more raw power than Sidious even as early as AOTC, but he wouldn't last 10 seconds against Sidious in a fight at this time.

*RANDOM INSERT*

I just had a bit of a theory about DE Sidious' power. You might have heard my earlier theory about Sidious eventually mastering midiclorians like his master did, which would get him effectively unlimited power. This fits because Lumiya described Sidious' power as unlimited, even in comparison to Vader (guy with the most raw power ever). Lumiya was awed by Sidious' power, yet she was willing to engage LOTF Luke (who has a good 15 years more experince and training than NJO Luke) in combat.

Okay. So here's another thought. GL stated that Anakin had 160% of Sidious' potential before Mustafar. So Luke would also have 160% of Sidious' potential, minus what he lost when Vader chopped off his hand. Now, even if Luke has more raw power than Sidious naturally, which GL confirmed, Sidious could still have more power because of the people he was draining on Byss. Do you understand what I am saying? Anyway, it was just an idea for consideration.

*END RANDOM INSERT*

The Jedi Durge killed by dropping in lava might have benefited

LOL! That's true, it certainly would have helped there. However, the Jedi Durge killed weren't exactly what I would call power. There no where in the same league as NJO Luke or DE Sidious.

Read the DE audiobook? There's some crazy stuff-Luke destroys an army of advanced battle droids with a wave of his hand

Read an audiobook? Hah, I'm just messing with you.

Seriously though, I don't have a copy of the audiobook. And destroying an army of droids is no where near tossing around capital ships. Not calling you a liar, but I can't find any other source that shows Luke tossing around capital ships.

lentract....use some logic. The heart of the Force? The all mighty force itself?
Seriously, becoming one in the heart of the force itself. This made him the 'very essence of the immovable object'

Upon further thinking, I've realized that DN Luke did this feat, not NJO Luke, so it can't be argued in for Luke in this instance.

Glentract, there shouldn't be a debate. Luke and Palp were borderline equals in their top forms...they fight again, they'll go straight back into that and Luke will win. Palpatine didn't use the Force and neither did Luke because they knew they were both beyond that, and 'Twin divinites, as different as night and day."

I'm the last person to downplay Palpatine, but he's second to Luke. Luke's simply not as ostentacious

What is all of this about 'divinities', 'top forms', and not using the Force?

Also, it's my understanding that Luke, Leia, and the unborn Anakin were required to overpower Sidious.

Exar Kun advanced to a level of power in 6 months, Glentract. Luke's thirty years, given his potential and skill? Not unlikely

Glentract, Luke was fighting on the ground battle in Coruscant....

He and his niece and nephew most certainly did. And recall was Luke did with the Slayers? Kyp couldn't even best one dying one

This...isn't a bad thing

Luke is willing to use his extraordinary defensive abilitie, though, which include becoming one in the heart of the Force...you can't beat that

During their fight, Luke achieves a state of pure oneness with the light and Palpatine does the same with the Dark. When the fight finishes, Luke returns to normal, but Palpatine's hate and fury keeps him the same and lets him achieve a new level to create that Force Storm

No, but Luke CAN defend against those in a way that would allow him to become one with the light

It puts him up there well enough

In Star by Star, I think, doesn't lightning curl away from Nom Anor? A Dark Sider cannot achieve the Unifying Force

I can't. If anything, the fight is equal, but the audibook pointed out it was no wonder the humble farrmboy defeated the mighty Emperor.
Contrast and compare to their earlier fight wat normal capacity when Palpatine destroyed Luke

When I've time, sure. I recall he considers it in Stackpole's books, pretty casually

Yeah, I know. I may be mixing up my lore

Luke's potential and raw power are greater than Palpatine's, though. Under Palpatine alone, Luke tripled in power...while granted Luke grows stronger-not sure where it's so dramatic-, Luke's shown ample expressions of the Force in between DE and the NJO

Unlike Anakin, Luke's had patience, time to study and a rather large knowledge base, considering the holocron factor. In a very short time, he learns to block some really powerful Sith techniques

You leave out a key detail: Lumiya was able to betray and eventually cause Palpatine's death...on the other hand, she was cornered and had no choice but to engage Luke and like a true opportunist, dealt him a horrific wound when he was distracted for Mara. Going further, Lumiya despises Luke completely....she's had decades to hate him. There isn't a comparison there: Lumiya has wanted nothing but to kill Luke for decades

You can lose a limb or two with no damage to force potential. Draining people doesn't give you mor epotnetial or raw power, it replenishes you, which is what Palpatine needed to do.

Oh, that was a rather elite team assembled there. Masters all with quite a bit of experience. While it's true they weren't exactly the cream of the crop, it's putting Luke on the level of a high PT master....moreover, Luke is able to fight the lava dragon there

That's not in the audiobook there. Luke just destroys the battle droids and takes out the AT AT. As for the capital ships, I think that in Hyperspace.
I didn't mean to lump them together, I was just exemplifying

No, but Luke can apparently achieve a great status as of DE

I mean that neither used any Force ability against one another because they knew it'd be useless. Leia can barely see them, but feels the extreme power radiating from them

Well, it's an interesting way they went about of it: Channeling all of the light, they pretty much used it to cut Palpatine off from the dark side, instead of fighting him, they shielded him.

How is this even a debate anymore? If you're still having problems reading Glentract or you're still stuck on EOD arguments, read the NJO novels. Luke>Palpatine by NJO. The author inconsistencies for LOTF make him look bad.

Not to get in this debate, or anything, LS, but Lumiya betrayed Sidious because she knew she had "zero" chance against him anywhere else - and you and I both know that it's not an exaggeration. She corrupted the clones and the genetic source material used to create the clones. And I doubt that someone could live solely off midichlorians and not the rest of the cells and genetic structure in one's body. Remember: Plagueis himself mastered the technique and Sidious was able to kill him nonetheless - which was the "ironic" part.

Luke would completely destroy Sidious in saber combat, a Force battle would be closer, but Luke still wins rather handily.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Luke would completely destroy Sidious in saber combat, a Force battle would be closer, but Luke still wins rather handily.

Not LotF Luke...

I'd like to smack the authors of LotF in the face with my steel-toe boot. That entire fight scene just corrupted the series.