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Okay someone just made the statement that magic always trumps science. I wonder if this is true. Let's pit them and see the outcome.

Each battle has 3 senarios:

NO prep
1 hour prep but no devices
1 day prep w/known devices and battle strategy (meaning things the character has been depicted doing)


Ironman vs. Morgana le Fey

Sersi vs. Loki

Spiderman vs. Lilth (daughter of Dracula) http://www.marvel.com/universe/Lilith_(Daughter_Of_Dracula)

High Evolutionary vs. Mordo

Thanos (pure science only) vs. Clea

Galactus vs. Strange

Arishem vs. Chthon...in this Chthon is able to leave his dimension with
no problem

One above all (celestial) and Exitar vs. The Vishanti

I think this is a good representation...Which side comes out with the majority?

That's all well and good. But I notice one match that is particularly lopsided:

Galactus vs. Strange. Strange is powerful, but he isn't Galactus level. Using that to prove that Magic ISN'T better than science is like pitting Batman's science against Odin's magic. It's meaningless, because they are different levels.

Originally posted by Soljer
That's all well and good. But I notice one match that is particularly lopsided:

Galactus vs. Strange. Strange is powerful, but he isn't Galactus level. Using that to prove that Magic ISN'T better than science is like pitting Batman's science against Odin's magic. It's meaningless, because they are different levels.

i was going to say that


and use some cool analigy, but you allready did both

Comic book science is just as ridiculous as magic. The only difference is you can vaguely apply real life rules based on current science knowledge on the comic book science.

is there any1 out there not afraid to actually post an opinion?

Originally posted by tru-marvell
is there any1 out there not afraid to actually post an opinion?

Too many fights for one thread. Most are (or at least I am) too lazy.

humm... in comic books MAGIC can defy all the scientific rules and isn't bound by the laws of physics.

so magic for the win

Originally posted by tru-marvell
Okay someone just made the statement that magic always trumps science. I wonder if this is true. Let's pit them and see the outcome.

Each battle has 3 senarios:

NO prep
1 hour prep but no devices
1 day prep w/known devices and battle strategy (meaning things the character has been depicted doing)


Ironman vs. Morgana le Fey

Sersi vs. Loki

Spiderman vs. Lilth (daughter of Dracula) http://www.marvel.com/universe/Lilith_(Daughter_Of_Dracula)

High Evolutionary vs. Mordo

Thanos (pure science only) vs. Clea

Galactus vs. Strange

Arishem vs. Chthon...in this Chthon is able to leave his dimension with
no problem

One above all (celestial) and Exitar vs. The Vishanti

I think this is a good representation...Which side comes out with the majority?

Science

Originally posted by cowboy
humm... in comic books MAGIC can defy all the scientific rules and isn't bound by the laws of physics.

so magic for the win

Not completely true; it really depends on the level of developed skill/knowledge as stated above. Most would agree that Odins' magic is of a very high order but his power is not on par with Exitar who is pure science

I guess an easiar version of this would be to ask what magical being is equal to or greater than OAA celestial.

Science and magic are equal. Beings like pre retcon beyonder and mr. Mxy seem to have blened the two into one.

Galactus isn't a science user, he's f***ing Galactus, he's in a league of his own

Originally posted by Soljer
Too many fights for one thread. Most are (or at least I am) too lazy.

ditto


and on subject

in comics, for the most part nither is greater



Science is so advanced in comics it is just as rediculous as magic (atleast potentially)

Ill go on 1st three ....Ironman.....Loki....Spiderman

Originally posted by tru-marvell
Not completely true; it really depends on the level of developed skill/knowledge as stated above. Most would agree that Odins' magic is of a very high order but his power is not on par with Exitar who is pure science

yeah i see ur point. but science is restricted where as magic isnt
IMO
could GOd be conciderd MAGIc ????????

Originally posted by cowboy
yeah i see ur point. but science is restricted where as magic isnt
IMO
could GOd be conciderd MAGIc ????????

God is Super natural. A blending of Science and Magic.

I think top tier cosmics; Eternity, LT, Chaos, Order,ect are a perfect blending of both. Infact imo the ODINPOWER is a good example of magic and cosmic blended together

Originally posted by tru-marvell
I think top tier cosmics; Eternity, LT, Chaos, Order,ect are a perfect blending of both. Infact imo the ODINPOWER is a good example of magic and cosmic blended together

Odin specifically stated that his power was mystical when he was fighting thanos.

how bout the "presence"

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Odin specifically stated that his power was mystical when he was fighting thanos.

Yeah that's either writers ignorance or Odin not wanting to give away too much. I know I've read on more than one occassion ( in the 80's early 90's ) where Odin speaks of his cosmic powers as well as his mystical abilities

Magic vs Science?

In that case Ed Elric trumps all execpt Galactus, Thanos, Celestials and the other gods you but on there

Originally posted by cowboy
humm... in comic books MAGIC can defy all the scientific rules and isn't bound by the laws of physics.

so magic for the win
I submit to you that Doom's armor was at one point described as being powered by a miniature black hole and ask you this: Which abides by the laws of physics?

Magic is just an advanced form of science.

They are the same thing in many comics. The Newgods, for example, they say they are being worshipped everytime someone uses a microwave. They have no magic, just advanced science.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I submit to you that Doom's armor was at one point described as being powered by a miniature black hole and ask you this: Which abides by the laws of physics?

cosign

lol, comic book science is magic

ehhhh yeah i could settle on that.

just one question is the "presence " in DC scientific.
or spector , lucifer, michale (spell).

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Science and magic are equal. Beings like pre retcon beyonder and mr. Mxy seem to have blened the two into one. Beyonder was natural.Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
God is Super natural. A blending of Science and Magic. God is natural. He isn't magic, or science. Why would God need science?
Originally posted by tru-marvell
I think top tier cosmics; Eternity, LT, Chaos, Order,ect are a perfect blending of both. Infact imo the ODINPOWER is a good example of magic and cosmic blended together The abstracts are cosmics, unless you can say that Eternity uses machines... which he doesn't. Unless you can say that Eternity casts spells... which he doesn't.

Odinpower is magic, in fact, I don't even know if there is cosmic powers involved... well maybe, considering the Celestials...

Odin power is magic?

Galactus, In-Betweener and Eternity don't think so. In fact, they have all point blank said Asgardians are "self proclaimed gods".

They really don't consider them gods at all.

Originally posted by long pig
Odin power is magic?

Galactus, In-Betweener and Eternity don't think so. In fact, they have all point blank said Asgardians are "self proclaimed gods".

They really don't consider them gods at all. That really doesn't say anything about magic though.

Also, I might be mistaken, but I thought it was magic? Maybe I am thinking of Thor's magic hammer... but I thought, it was magic. I might go look it up...

Originally posted by bigbran
That really doesn't say anything about magic though.

Also, I might be mistaken, but I thought it was magic? Maybe I am thinking of Thor's magic hammer... but I thought, it was magic. I might go look it up...
No, no. It's magic to US, but not to those who are as old as time and know more than we do. They know how it all started.

Being called a self proclaimed god by Galactus really means something.

Here is an interesting quote

The Elder Gods first appeared billions of years ago, when organic life was beginning to evolve on Earth. The first of them was a being known as the Demiurge, born from Earth's natural magical energies.

So I would say that magic is not just "advanced science" but is a seperate form of power, I don't think magical bolts/shields are composed of atomic/sub-atomics particles.

Originally posted by Grimm22
Galactus isn't a science user, he's f***ing Galactus, he's in a league of his own

The one statment I can completly agree with.

Originally posted by Evangel94
Magic is just an advanced form of science.

Not really

Science is powered by facts

Magic is powered by faith

Originally posted by Grimm22
Not really

Science is powered by facts

Magic is powered by faith

any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic

Originally posted by tru-marvell
Okay someone just made the statement that magic always trumps science. I wonder if this is true. Let's pit them and see the outcome.

Each battle has 3 senarios:

NO prep
1 hour prep but no devices
1 day prep w/known devices and battle strategy (meaning things the character has been depicted doing)


Ironman vs. Morgana le Fey

Sersi vs. Loki

Spiderman vs. Lilth (daughter of Dracula) http://www.marvel.com/universe/Lilith_(Daughter_Of_Dracula)

High Evolutionary vs. Mordo

Thanos (pure science only) vs. Clea

Galactus vs. Strange

Arishem vs. Chthon...in this Chthon is able to leave his dimension with
no problem

One above all (celestial) and Exitar vs. The Vishanti

I think this is a good representation...Which side comes out with the majority?

Celestials>Vishanti

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic

Originally posted by Evangel94
Magic is just an advanced form of science.

Originally posted by Grimm22
Not really

Science is powered by facts

Magic is powered by faith

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic

and the answer to all this is:

magic doesn't exist, whereas science explains the natural world

Highly advanced Technology may be indistinguishable from magic, but the fact that it is technology and has a natural explanation makes it science and not magic.

Basically, if magic existed it would be science Since it describes something that doesn't occur naturally we call it magic

Eternity hasn't cast spells? He cast a shit-load of spells, so did LT.

Originally posted by inamilist
and the answer to all this is:

magic doesn't exist, whereas science explains the natural world

Highly advanced Technology may be indistinguishable from magic, but the fact that it is technology and has a natural explanation makes it science and not magic.

Basically, if magic existed it would be science Since it describes something that doesn't occur naturally we call it magic

how very Reed Richards of you

but thats not really the point in comic books magic does exist and can break the established (scientific) laws of physics

Magic has it's own physics.

But it still obeys laws, just not the same ones as physical things.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
how very Reed Richards of you

but thats not really the point in comic books magic does exist and can break the established (scientific) laws of physics


hahaha

very true

i'd also point out that a whole lot of the "science" in comic books breaks a good deal of the established laws of physics

Originally posted by King Kandy
Magic has it's own physics.

But it still obeys laws, just not the same ones as physical things.

thats why I put scientific in quotes next to established

Originally posted by inimalist
and the answer to all this is:

magic doesn't exist, whereas science explains the natural world

Highly advanced Technology may be indistinguishable from magic, but the fact that it is technology and has a natural explanation makes it science and not magic.

Basically, if magic existed it would be science Since it describes something that doesn't occur naturally we call it magic

No No, you people are getting confused. Science is tied to cause and effect. Science as in cause and effect are the same. You can't have one without the other.

Now, Magick, "in comic books" does not depend on cause and effect.

In comics its quite the opposite. Magick does not depend on the nature of cause and effect in the same sense as science does to effect a outcome.

Weather you find this logical or not is irrelevant since it doesn't have to be, its a comic.

Basically, if magick existed it would not be science because it violates reason or cause and effect.

What you are referring to is "magic tricks" and yes you may call that advanced science or something awaiting an explanation but thats "not" the "magick" in the comics this debate is about.

Is really advanced science indistinguishable from magic, perhaps but I haven't made up my mind which is the best.

Mr Mxyzptlk science >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magic

Originally posted by biensalsa
Mr Mxyzptlk science >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> magic





Annataz Magick >>>>>>>>>> Mxyzptlk Science

Annataz Developed an extremely powerful set of magicks that was able to bind and control the powerful energies of the 5th dimension imp Mister Mxyzptlk indicating that her magical power levels are either directly equal to, or at least comparible to Mxyzptlk. Annataz was able to keep him from accessing his own powers.

Science wins .

I'm tempted to say magic trumps because Sise Neg recreated 616 with it but there is also the UN which Im trying to figure out if it's actually tech or not.

Originally posted by Vanlore
Annataz Magick >>>>>>>>>> Mxyzptlk Science

Annataz Developed an extremely powerful set of magicks that was able to bind and control the powerful energies of the 5th dimension imp Mister Mxyzptlk indicating that her magical power levels are either directly equal to, or at least comparible to Mxyzptlk. Annataz was able to keep him from accessing his own powers.


IIRC 5D Science was treated as magic in that comic. Tbh that is ignorance on the writer's part.

5D Science has probably the most ubber feats in comics

Let me put it this way 5D Science destroys multiverses and unless you are willing to say that Annataz's magic is more powerful than that, then We have a case of writer's ignorance and Mr Mxyzptlk jobbing.

Meh, despite Annataz negating Mxy's powers, Prime still stated that Mxy's magic was far and away the most powerful he'd ever encountered... Which makes that whole scene even more ridiculous. I mean, if Mxy's magic was the most powerful that Prime has encountered, then that makes Mxy's magic>>Annataz's... Yet Annataz (a weaker character) was able to muck up Mxy's (a stronger character's) power? Idiocy at its finest.

Anyway, for ambiguity's sake I'll side with Monitor tech/science over nearly any other type of science or magic. Their tech is powered by The Bleed. Their nanotech is city-sized, and has infinite memory capacity. A Monitor built the Cosmic Armor. Etc.

=========================


The Time Variance Authority headquarters is a structured as infinite as the Omniverse!


http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229907_TVA1.jpghttp://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229908_TVA2.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------


The TVA has a hall where they dump entire Universes,
and any leftovers of said Universes into the nothingness beyond. (Beyond Realm it seems)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229911_TVA3.jpg

"We're the biggest organization in the known Omniverse"


---------------------------------------------------------------


The TVA has these agents called "ChronoMonitors" ... "Each of them monitors & directs a Timeline"

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229913_TVA4.jpg

Reed asked: "The rows seem endless. How far do they actually extend?"

Mr Mobius's reply: "How large is the Omniverse?"


---------------------------------------------------------------


They're tech is so crazy,
that when Reed hacked into their CPU System and erased all info concerning 616,
it literally re-created Reality manipulating who knows how many years.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229915_TVA5.jpg

I pity the janitor of that facility.

Originally posted by Galan007
Meh, despite Annataz negating Mxy's powers, Prime still stated that Mxy's magic was far and away the most powerful he'd ever encountered... Which makes that whole scene even more ridiculous. I mean, if Mxy's magic was the most powerful that Prime has encountered, then that makes Mxy's magic>>Annataz's... Yet Annataz (a weaker character) was able to muck up Mxy's (a stronger character's) power? Idiocy at its finest.

I figured that while it was a kind of dumb thing to happen, it was probably the result of some sort of sneak attack or special artifact. Like those stories when some lower cosmic threat traps someone like Eternity. Or like a weak kid sneaking up on a wrestler while he is asleep and handcuffing his wrist to the bed. Now the wrestler can't escape and his vastly superior strength is useless (assuming the handcuffs hold).

Originally posted by Vanlore
Annataz Magick >>>>>>>>>> Mxyzptlk Science

Annataz Developed an extremely powerful set of magicks that was able to bind and control the powerful energies of the 5th dimension imp Mister Mxyzptlk indicating that her magical power levels are either directly equal to, or at least comparible to Mxyzptlk. Annataz was able to keep him from accessing his own powers.

You copied and pasted this from Annataz's dc wiki page =/

Originally posted by Konton
You copied and pasted this from Annataz's dc wiki page =/

Yeah? Is that ok?

Originally posted by biensalsa
IIRC 5D Science was treated as magic in that comic. Tbh that is ignorance on the writer's part.

5D Science has probably the most ubber feats in comics

Let me put it this way 5D Science destroys multiverses and unless you are willing to say that Annataz's magic is more powerful than that, then We have a case of writer's ignorance and Mr Mxyzptlk jobbing.

Well you may be right that it is one of those instances where a writer has a character perform a feat everyone knows is bull.

There is another way of looking at it. Maybe trying to compare power like an arm wrestling contest is the wrong way to go about it. Maybe magic is more dynamic. What I mean is just because one can destroy multiverses doesn't mean there is not some nitch or crevice magic can't sink its fangs in.

Take superman for example, he is immensely more powerful than a normal human being, yet with kryptonite a weak person with no powers can spank superman.

Maybe Annataz found some weakness she could take advantage of with her magic.

I will admit I don't know these two characters that well, so maybe it is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Mr Master
=========================


The Time Variance Authority headquarters is a structured as infinite as the Omniverse!


http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229907_TVA1.jpghttp://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229908_TVA2.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------


The TVA has a hall where they dump entire Universes,
and any leftovers of said Universes into the nothingness beyond. (Beyond Realm it seems)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229911_TVA3.jpg

"We're the biggest organization in the known Omniverse"


---------------------------------------------------------------


The TVA has these agents called "ChronoMonitors" ... "Each of them monitors & directs a Timeline"

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229913_TVA4.jpg

Reed asked: "The rows seem endless. How far do they actually extend?"

Mr Mobius's reply: "How large is the Omniverse?"


---------------------------------------------------------------


They're tech is so crazy,
that when Reed hacked into their CPU System and erased all info concerning 616,
it literally re-created Reality manipulating who knows how many years.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12229915_TVA5.jpg

shocking Wow!! It just gets more extreme! lol.