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Phoenix win or lose

Looses of course ...

So now we are comparing Phoenix's power to the power of TOAA?

Technically Phoenix Force was the spark of the universe......So its definatley up there...now who wins...I dont know...

Originally posted by Galan007
So now we are comparing Phoenix's power to the power of TOAA?




Its not the power of TOAA. Once and for all it was a vast power source found within the END reality. Thanos claimed it to be the power of the supreme being and speculated on his acquisition of this power being part of some plan of the supreme beings.

Thanos speculated the same thing about the cosmic cubes and the IG and those theories were found to be very false.

No other wielders of the power claimed it to be TOAA's. The bio of Akhenaten from earlier this year doesnt state it to be TOAA's power. That was just what Thanos equated it to after he came into a vast power, more powerful than the forces he had acquired previously. It isnt canon.

Feats wise, Thanos with HOTI beat down the abstracts as the IG did, beat down LT's Mbody as Reed Richards did with one of his inventions and he absorbed the END reality, a feat many cosmic beings are by continuity capable of. The Hunger for example, the Phoenix has done so to other realities.

Feats wise Phoenix has it beat. In terms of presentation, how both powers are generally talked about, HOTI seemed in that mini to be represented and generally perceived in a higher regard than most Phoenix appearances. Although it could be argued that the White Hot Room scene where universe are nothing but specks to the avatars, specks which can be manipulated like putty is a similarly nigh omnipotent representation.

In the end its all just down to theory. But once again feats wise, Phoenix has it beat.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
beat down LT's Mbody as Reed Richards did with one of his inventions
Please don't tell me that your refering to "Last Planet Standing"?

No matter how much I like PF, anyone with HOTI takes this.

Originally posted by Galan007
Please don't tell me that your refering to "Last Planet Standing"?

Yep. Its a valid LT appearance, regardless if you didnt think much of the mini itself. It still stands. It happened to LT. Or at least one of his Mbodys.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yep. Its a valid LT appearance, regardless if you didnt think much of the mini itself. It still stands. It happened to LT. Or at least one of his Mbodys. Reed simply knocked an unsuspecting LT back a bit, thats all.

It's an impressive feat don't get me wrong, but he in no way "beat down" LT in the same degree that Thanos did...

and the arch was non-cannon anyway.

Originally posted by Xplosive
No matter how much I like PF, anyone with HOTI takes this.

Fair enough. Cos i cant make a conclusive case for Phoenix winning. Not against something with the showings of HOTI. However in light of the fact that it didnt do anything on panel other cosmics, or Reed Richards inventions have shown to be able to do, Phoenix has an arguably higher feat.

However unlike the IG where i can dismiss it because of its power source(the Big Bang) and lower showings, i just cant do the same with the HOTI because its power source is undetermined and while Phoenix has it pipped in terms of a power display, i just cant argue conclusively that Phoenix would win.

Its a toss up. This is the kind of opposition, Phoenix should be struggling against. Not Galactus, Eternity and the IG

I thought Reed punking the LT was a dream?

Anywho, Phoenix Force wins this, becuase I doubt Akhenatan would even be competant enough to use the power properly.

Originally posted by Galan007
Reed simply knocked an unsuspecting LT back a bit, thats all. He in no way "beat down" LT...

and the arch was non-cannon anyway.

Canon is a certain set of rules specific to a certain label. 616 has a certain set of rules, the Ultimate Universe has theirs, as does the New Universe for example.

There is only one LT who is the same being who features in all of those realities. Therefore the canon argument doesnt apply to him. LT isnt a 616 character who appeared in Last Standing, so the point is moot.

According to the writer those cosmics were destroyed and when fans complained he said it was an LT Mbody.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Canon is a certain set of rules specific to a certain label. 616 has a certain set of rules, the Ultimate Universe has theirs, as does the New Universe for example.

There is only one LT who is the same being who features in all of those realities. Therefore the canon argument doesnt apply to him. LT isnt a 616 character who appeared in Last Standing, so the point is moot.

According to the writer those cosmics were destroyed and when fans complained he said it was an LT Mbody. Regardless, Reed has NEVER "beat down" LT as you said he did.

Knocking LT back a little bit is impressive for a human, but it hardly warrants the title of a "beat down".

Originally posted by Galan007
Regardless, Reed has NEVER "beat down" LT as you said he did.

Knocking LT back a little bit is impressive for a human, but it hardly warrants the title of a "beat down".

That Mbody was destroyed. All of those cosmics were destroyed, hence the writer claiming it was an Mbody. Thats why Thanos disposing of LT's mbody isnt something previously unheard of.

Just noticed. This is Akhenaten. He shared HOTI with The Order and he didnt do anything particularly impressive.

Phoenix beats him down. I was unsure about her against Thanos with HOTI.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That Mbody was destroyed. All of those cosmics were destroyed, hence the writer claiming it was an Mbody. Thats why Thanos disposing of LT's mbody isnt something previously unheard of. Where did you get that they were destroyed?

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9347/reedsuper5le6.th.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1729/reedsuper6iq6.th.jpg

Originally posted by Galan007
Where did you get that they were destroyed?

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9347/reedsuper5le6.th.jpg

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/1729/reedsuper6iq6.th.jpg

The fact that they were hellbent on stopping Galactus

They had their power turned back on them were blown back before being consumed by said power on panel.

Happened in issue 3.

Never seen again in the 5 issue series.

Defalco released a statement to appease fans who came to the same very understandable conclusion.

LT uses Mbodys. It was an Mbody.

Thats kinda how i got it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The fact that they were hellbent on stopping Galactus

They had their power turned back on them were blown back before being consumed by said power on panel.

Happened in issue 3.

Never seen again in the 5 issue series.

Defalco released a statement to appease fans who came to the same very understandable conclusion.

LT uses Mbodys. It was an Mbody.

Thats kinda how i got it. You were just saying that we dont know for sure that THOTI is TOAA's power because it wasn't specifically stated on pannel.

Yet even though its not stated that LT was destroyed by Reed's machine, we can all of the sudden go to the bank on it?

Sorry, but to me, nothing would suggest that LT was destroyed.

Originally posted by Galan007
You were just saying that we dont know for sure that THOTI is TOAA's power because it wasn't specifically stated on pannel.

Yet even though its not stated that LT was destroyed by Reed's machine, we can all of the sudden go to the bank on it?

Sorry, but to me, nothing would suggest that LT was destroyed.

Ive just scrutinized the Last Planet Standing issue and Reed does indeed say the device would hurl the victim endlessly through reality. So that is what happened to LT's Mbody, youre right he wasnt destroyed as id first thought, so yeah thats cool i concede on that point, but he was defeated and taken out of the picture, or at least that Mbody was.

With that in mind my point still stands. LT can have his power turned against him. He can be defeated. Its been done by Reed Richards and his invention. Thanos admittedly did go further by actually absorbing this Mbody. However given the HOTI's other feats werent anything out of the ordinary and given just how much of an ownage just Reed laid on LT. That doesnt paint a picture of a HOTI that is without a doubt greater than Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ive just scrutinized the Last Planet Standing issue and Reed does indeed say the device would hurl the victim endlessly through reality. So that is what happened to LT's Mbody, youre right he wasnt destroyed as id first thought, so yeah thats cool i concede on that point, but he was defeated and taken out of the picture, or at least that Mbody was. Cool enough, but LT was far from destroyed.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
With that in mind my point still stands. LT can have his power turned against him. He can be defeated. Its been done by Reed Richards and his invention. Thanos admittedly did go further by actually absorbing this Mbody. However given the HOTI's other feats werent anything out of the ordinary and given just how much of an ownage just Reed laid on LT. That doesnt paint a picture of a HOTI that is without a doubt greater than Phoenix. Reed isn't just some normal human, I mean look what he did with the UN, so I wouldn't say its a poor showing on LT's part.

Also I don't see Phoenix resisting THOTU as long as LT was able to.

Either way it's my oppinion that:
THOTU>Phoenix

Originally posted by Galan007
Cool enough, but LT was far from destroyed.

Reed isn't just some normal human, I mean look what he did with the UN, so I wouldn't say its a poor showing on LT's part.

In the grand scheme of things he really is small fry. What did he do with the UN? He merely pressed a button and it did its job



Originally posted by Galan007
Also I don't see Phoenix resisting THOTU as long as LT was able to.

Either way it's my oppinion that:
THOTU>Phoenix

Fair enough, neither side has anything conclusive to say either way.

This is the kind of competition Phoenix should be struggling against so im cool.

Im just glad you now know that as far as canon is concerned, it isnt Gods power and the Last Planet Standing showing for LT counts.

As far as this match up goes, Akhenaten loses as he shared the HOTI he never possesed its full power and as such never did anything of note.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In the grand scheme of things he really is small fry. What did he do with the UN? He merely pressed a button and it did its job Opperation of the UN on as grand of a scale as Reed used it, requires much more then just pressing a button.

Originally posted by Galan007
Opperation of the UN on as grand of a scale as Reed used it, requires much more then just pressing a button.

According to whom? Where did you see depicted on panel him do anything but press a button? And i hope youre not a subscriber to the non canon Mr Master view that the UN reset the multiverse?

What is with all these anti-pheonix force spite threads ?


this is getting reallly fkn annoying, you all allow GS to ruin your perceptions of the great character that is the Pheonix Force, and then everyone makes replica threads of nearly undefeatable beings vs the pheonix force, knowing that Pheonix Force would lose.....just to spite GS, or just to attack the pheonix, again and again, this is enough already...

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
According to whom? Where did you see depicted on panel him do anything but press a button? And i hope youre not a subscriber to the non canon Mr Master view that the UN reset the multiverse? In Infinity War...

Just before Quasar gets the UN, Thanos says:
"if not utilized with precise correctness, the bearer is destroyed with the target"

I can't believe you would actually think that all which is required by the UN user is to simply "press a button"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Yep. Its a valid LT appearance, regardless if you didnt think much of the mini itself. It still stands. It happened to LT. Or at least one of his Mbodys.

Mbody contains a fraction of Tribunal's power. I thought the mini was full of

Originally posted by Galan007
In Infinity War...

Just before Quasar gets the UN, Thanos says:
"if not utilized with precise correctness, the bearer is destroyed with the target"

I can't believe you would actually think that all which is required by the UN user is to simply "press a button"

So what does that sentence tell us? For all we know it could be the same as pointing a powerful gun. If not used with correct preciseness and with the correct stance, you could get knocked back by the feedback and affect a completely different target.

The fact that Quasar who is no super genius like Reed was capable of using it without destroying himself says alot. Seems like its just a matter of being smart and having focus. The UN does all the work, you just have to determine the target and focus on it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The UN does all the work, you just have to determine the target and focus on it. But you just said all you have to do is "press a button"

That is not true.

If the UN is used incorrectly the user is destroyed, so its alot more complicated then pressing a button.

That's all I'm saying.

Originally posted by Galan007
But you just said all you have to do is "press a button"

That is not true.

If the UN is used incorrectly the user is destroyed, so its alot more complicated then pressing a button.

That's all I'm saying.

Because thats basically all you have to do. It stands to reason youre going to have to wield it carefully and focus on the target. Look how powerful it is!! Thats why i didnt think i had to say it.

Your first statement about it just seemed to suggest that Reed was a special case and with the exception of cosmics only he was capable of wielding it with success. It just seemed like you were trying to make a case for how special Reed was and therefore LTs defeat at the hands of his invention shouldnt really be acknowledged.

But its cool you werent.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Because thats basically all you have to do. It stands to reason youre going to have to wield it carefully and focus on the target. Look how powerful it is!! Thats why i didnt think i had to say it.

Your first statement about it just seemed to suggest that Reed was a special case and with the exception of cosmics only he was capable of wielding it with success. It just seemed like you were trying to make a case for how special Reed was and therefore LTs defeat at the hands of his invention shouldnt really be acknowledged.

But its cool you werent. The only reason I brought up Reed was because he has done the most with the UN by far.

Originally posted by Galan007
The only reason I brought up Reed was because he has done the most with the UN by far.

Ok cool.

And contrary to popular belief as you've seen. I can and will admit when im wrong.

Good debate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Ok cool.

And contrary to popular belief as you've seen. I can and will admit when im wrong.

Good debate. Cool,

Nice debate

Anyway, to original thread, Akhenaten with HOTI, he had it's fraction power, but was still easily above Skyfather level, but that wouldn't be enough to handle Phoenix Force.

Although Akhenaten did not have the grasp of omnipotence that Thanos had, he could still take the phoenix with the HOTU

Originally posted by norrinradd43
Although Akhenaten did not have the grasp of omnipotence that Thanos had, he could still take the phoenix with the HOTU

Based on what?

Akhenaten had a fraction of the HOTI and he didnt do anything beyond Eternity level with it. He was powerful but not THAT powerful.

i've tried saying the same thing in the past, but for some reason people just don't want to accept it. glad SOMEONE was able to.