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I've made this thread in response to people wanting me to prove that Bane pulled a moon out of orbit, even though he's never actually shown to do so, so here's my argument.

Premise 1: Bane planned to do so, here.

Now that he understood the depths of Sith powers, he thought he might even have control over worlds and moons, able to play with orbits and gravity like a child might play with colored balls.

Long ago, Dxun had grazed the planet Onderon, close enough that it was possible for creatures to pass across the conjoined atmosphere. Perhaps Bane could nudge the beast moon close enough so that he could travel to the nearby planet that filled the sky. In bloodshed and chaos, Darth Bane would go to Onderon... and there he would find his apprentice.

Premise 2: It's later confirmed, in tDSSB, on PG 79, that Bane did fly on top of a beast in between their atmospheres.

With his strength returned, his philosophy determined, and his dark side powers enhanced and improved, Darth Bane subjugated a flying beast and used it to travel from Dxun to Onderon.

He would find an apprentice.

The legacy would live on.

Eventually, the sith would have their revenge.

Premise 3: The two atmospheres had slowly been moving away from each other for thousands of years, by this point they were too far apart for Bane to cross like he had planned, so the only way Bane could have done what was confirmed in Premise 2 is by doing what he had planned in Premise 1.

Conclusion: Bane must have pulled a moon out of orbit.

So that's my argument, now I encourage people to point out flaws, but until someone either proves one of these premises wrong, or proves that the premises don't form the conclusion I arrived at, it will just have to be accepted as fact.

! !

Adding on to that, Bane did this when he was only 26, at a point where he had been studying the darkside for less than three years, and when he had only just begun to study under true sith teachings. I think it's safe to say that he definitely has the highest force potentials ever, with the exception of maybe Anakin and maybe Luke and Darth Zannah. I also think it's safe to say that at this point (Bane of the Sith), he is definitely in the top 5 most powerful force users ever, and definitely in the top 3 most powerful dark lords of the sith ever.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Adding on to that, Bane did this when he was only 26, at a point where he had been studying the darkside for less than three years, and when he had only just begun to study under true sith teachings. I think it's safe to say that he definitely has the highest force potentials ever, with the exception of maybe Anakin and maybe Luke and Darth Zannah. I also think it's safe to say that at this point (Bane of the Sith), he is definitely in the top 5 most powerful force users ever, and definitely in the top 3 most powerful dark lords of the sith ever.

Don't nut your pants just yet. I still want anther user to confirm this. Your saying that like its the big be all end all of the feat wars, whose to say that other users who have an even higher force potential them him (Revan, Sidious, Exar Kun, Luke, Vader, Jacen, Sion) couldn't mimic or do the same, he just did it because he had too thats the problem with feat wars, if people who are known to be stronger then him (see above) didn't do it doesn't mean Bane > Them.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Don't nut your pants just yet. I still want anther user to confirm this.

Confirm what?

That that was actually in the DSSB.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Adding on to that, Bane did this when he was only 26, at a point where he had been studying the darkside for less than three years, and when he had only just begun to study under true sith teachings. I think it's safe to say that he definitely has the highest force potentials ever, with the exception of maybe Anakin and maybe Luke and Darth Zannah. I also think it's safe to say that at this point (Bane of the Sith), he is definitely in the top 5 most powerful force users ever, and definitely in the top 3 most powerful dark lords of the sith ever.

No.

Anakin's potential is greater than Bane's. Period. There is no maybe, dude, and you need to stop pretending otherwise. Zannah? I'm told that the EoD guys shot that thing down as well. Luke's potential? Greater than Bane's. Sidious's potential? Greater than Bane's. All the Skywalkers, Sidious, and likely Revan.

Don't forget Yoda.

Why the hell Revan?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Don't forget Yoda.

Don't be silly!

Because he's constantly desribed as and uber to the Max Force User. And your lover sea shells was scared of him.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
That that was actually in the DSSB.

It is in the tDSSB, it's the very last four entry sentences for Darth Bane. Page 79, Chapter Five (under "The New Sith":

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6564/pg079uz6.th.png

As well, the tNEC also conforms with that, I think. I haven't actually read BotS, so I don't know what the hell is going on, but the tNEC says this:

"Darth Bane retreived Rain from Onderon, and she became his apprentice - Darth Zannah." (The Battle of Ruusan, Pg. 27.)

I can only assume it's referring to the line that "there he would find his apprentice".

Yoda still>Bane by a significant amount

People still refer to this feat of Bane like it means much

Well then *claps* Banes still weaker then the top tier guys.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda still>Bane by a significant amount

People still refer to this feat of Bane like it means much

Erm, how? When has Yoda ever displayed this kind of strength. Logic points to Bane being greater.

They shall begin, the FEAT WARS!

Transitive Property.

TMP Sidious > Bane

Yoda = ROTS Sidious

Yoda > Bane

It's nice how you have no idea what you're talking about. Now if I said that Bane is more powerful because he's pulled a moon out of orbit and Yoda hasn't, then that would be feat wars, but that isn't what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that Yoda cannot possibly be considered more powerful than Bane because he has never displayed strength with the force that Bane has, and pulling the moon out of orbit is testament to that.

1 flaw in that argument AC: TPM Sidious hasn't been confirmed to be more powerful than Bane in respect to combat prowess, the statement which you are referring to speaks more for his intellect and political knowledge than it does his combat prowess, but try again.

Empire's End - Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times. He studied the ancient ruins on the Sith mausoleum world of Korriban. He unlocked secrets of the Force from a captured Jedi Holocron. The dark side energies flowing through Palpatine's body were so intense, that they ravaged his mortal frame. The very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him. - Databank Palpatine

The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. - Databank Yoda


Palpatine > Bane. Period.

What exactly is your point? I know that DE Sidious is greater than Bane... (for now that is, but I won't bother getting into this right here) I'm just arguing against Yoda, and nothing in that supports him being above Bane.

Those were not in reference to DE Sidious they were in reference to all past incarnations and the two that weren't from that direct time period are speaking in the past tense. ROTS Sidous > Bane. Yoda = ROTS Sidious. Yoda > Bane. PERIOD.

Yoda has restricted the Darkside of the planet Dagobah to a single spot and has achieves legions of triumph against the Dark Side. Your argument would only be valid if Yoda tried to pull a moon out of orbit and failed.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Those were not in reference to DE Sidious they were in reference to all past incarnations and the two that weren't from that direct time period are speaking in the past tense.

Bullshit, none of the quotes saying that Palpatine was the most powerful ever directly refer to any PT incarnation of Sidious, if you disagree, provide a word for word explanation on how the quotes you provided that do that refer to RotS Sidious. The only quotes that refer to PT Sidious are ones that only prove that he was the most powerful of his time, not ever.



Wow, so did Thon. Is Thon more powerful than Bane? Don't be ridiculous Lightsnake, this feat is minor compared to the stuff that force titans like Bane can do.



You know, this is the kind of vague bs which proves that you have no case.



No, my argument is perfectly valid, Yoda has never displayed the kind of strength with the force that Bane has (pulling a moon out of orbit is a testament to this) in situations where it would be beneficial and almost necessary.



Now quit with the vague unsubstantiated bs, and provide a proper case for Yoda.

Proof Thon did so? Oh, wait....

And vague stuff? I'm unaware how having legions of triumphs is vague...

Anf Yoda's lifted up capital ships and mountainsides. Sorry, but how much power do you need to pull a moon now? More power than that? And last I checked: Size matters not.

Yoda's bound an entire dark side nexus to one spot- more than Thon did, btw....accordin to PoD it was 'The Jedi'....as in more than one

Yoda's had 900 years of practice and ability, studying numerous levels of the Force and mastering defenses against the Sith's own techniques from their holocrons, he's the strongest foe the Darkness had ever known and more than on par with Palpatine, bane's superior.
In saber skills? He has an uncanny danger sense surpassing most other Jedi, he's shown the ability to surpass three Masters working in conjunction, destroy armies on his own, bring down mountainsides with the form, destroy large amounts of droids with the twitch of a finger, defeat an experienced Sith Lord, the strongest of the Lost Twenty, while distracted and saving a woman on a world steepled in the Dark Side...he can deflect lightning with his bare hands, which is 'almost impossible, even for skilled Jedi Masters,' and if you forgot that Rostoni discussion on SW.com earlier this year, it may very well have been a young Yoda who offs Bane...he's killed Sith before, remember?

C'mon, what's Bane shown? Oooooh, great telekenisi. Wow! Wait...that's it? Nothing else? Oh,r ight, he's directly surpassed in power by Palpatine, who HEritage of the Sith calls the culmination of power and tradition in over a thousand years. Huh! And how the strongest of Bane's order was Darth Sidious? WOW!

Wait, silly me...yoiu're a fanboy, a fool and a liar and this forum knows it

Wow...lol, pwned.

Oh god, we're entering the 'Age of Bane.'

What is tDSSB? And I'm confused - didn't Bane get Rain as his apprentice before he got his Orbalisk armor?

DSSB is the dark side source book

lightsnake, yoda said size matters not to clear lukes doubts, had it been so easy as what yoda said then i think sith lords and jedis would have been tossing stars and planets at each other.


And planet.

Dan wallace confirmed that ROTS sidious is already the most powerful sith lord in history, The NEC clearly stated this

Kadesh, the NEC is an in-universe source, in other words it's fallible.

The NEC might be in universe, but the DSB and the Ultimate Visual Guides are not. Not to mention there is SUFFICIENT proof that at least by DE, Sidious is the top dog by a long margin.

I disagree.

The NEC is in-universe, the DSSB argument was flawed, and there's nothing about that in the Ultimate Visual Guide either to my knowledge.

And going by feats, Nihilus is above Sidious imo, and Bane isn't too far behind, and will most likely surpass him soon, considering everything he's done, at the age of 26, and with less than three years experience studying the darkside.

Get the DE sourcebook or whatever it is. Lightsnake has given me way too much proof and logical arguments for me to think anyone is close to DE Sidious, and I am a Ragnos fan. And your argument is too flawed for me to nitpick at it right now, it's New Year's day so I'll get to it later.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I'm confused - didn't Bane get Rain as his apprentice before he got his Orbalisk armor?

Basically, he found Rain at the end of the Battle of Ruusan, and arranged for her to wait for him in Onderon, and he then went off to Dxun.

You cannot base ONE argument on a single quote.

An quote from an omniscient narrator proclaiming Ragnos as the most of the most powerful is just as sufficient, it's contradictory with the book and comic being on equal level of canon.

Opinions of Lucas is what matters the most, that and substantiated evidence placed together from both sides determines a victor.

In many cases the Ancients have no information therefore cannot be compared fairly against Sidious.

Stop with the Sidious owns all BS, of the known and valid sources he is the best, it does not mean he better than the Sith lords that are relatively unknown.

From the available evidence, he is the best choice, however.

Deception, is this what you resort to, now? Since you can't logically fellate Ragnos anymore without being debunked, you have to try to undermine our argument instead of providing one of your own? That's a legitimate tactic, I suppose, but a cheap one. This is a debate. Simply because you lack the evidence to make a strong case for Ragnos doesn't mean that we have to conclude: "oh, he can't be compared fairly against Sidious" and just dismiss it. For all intents and purposes, Sidious is more powerful than the Ancient Sith. Period.

Just one thing, Ragnos was called the most powerful stih of HIS time, from the Ancient Times. But really, most of the toughest siths around had this same condition. Since revan to exar kun, from bane to sidious.
Also, Revan was also called the "greatest jedi knight" by Dorak, yet yoda is stated later as being the greatest, so since he comes after Revan this makes him stronger. The same happens to Luke.

I agree with most of people here, sidious is the greatest sith and for bane, surely he was in the top 10, pheraps also in the top 5, but i seriously doubt he was the best.

That's not it at all. Ragnos was labelled "the most powerful of the most powerful" with no indication that it applied to the future. There's not even a remote implication. If Revan was called "the greatest Jedi Knight" without the clarification of "ever" or "in history", then it applies only for his time. The reason Yoda is more powerful than Revan is because he was called "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had EVER known". When Sidious is labelled the most powerful, it has the word "ever" or a variation of.

The New Essential Chronology: "the most powerful Sith Lord ever."

The AotC Visual Guide: "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power."

DESB: "He succeeded where all others failed at taming the dark side."

I know, that's what i was trying to say. I was saying that Ragnos was stated as the most powerful of the ANCIENT sith lords...

Oh no... not this crazy thread again. Who bumped it!

It says nowhere that he pulls the onderon or dxun closer together.

proof

"When he stared up into the sky he could see Onderon looming large above him, the planet so close to its moon that their atmospheres had occasionally passed through each other in centuries past. For a brief window of time this had allowed the great flying beasts of Dxun to migrate to the other world, where some had been tamed and trained to become the fearsome mounts of Onderon's fabled beast rider clans." this excerpt clearly says that each world is within flying distance of each other.

"Bane pushed his mount, urging it into the uppermost reaches of the breathable atmosphere. Above them the nearby world of Onderon grew in size until it completely filled the horizon. Only a few hundred kilometers separated Dxun from its neighbor, an insignifi-cant sliver of distance on the scale of worlds and solar systems. Already he could feel the faint gravitational pull of Onderon trying to draw them in, the larger planet's mass battling for dominance with that of its slightly smaller satellite. Driven by Bane's relentless will, the drexl pumped its wings furiously, gaining speed and elevation with every beat.
Bane began to summon the Force, letting it build until the last possible instant. Then, gathering the dark side around him and his mount like a protective cloak, he spurred the drexl forward, and a second later they broke free of Dxun's atmosphere and plunged into the frozen vacuum of space that separated him from Onderon and freedom."

here it clearly states that he uses the force to cloak them in a protective field not to pull the planet and moon together

In Bane of the Sith he decides to move the moon but the story actually ends before he does so.

What I read in the Rule of Two book is that The atmoshperes crossed and Bane flew over on a beast.

Bump.

Yeah, all that happened was Onderon and Dxun came super close together that they shared the same atmosphere and he rode on some Drexl to cross it. Now, I heard that this was a retcon and he did pull the Moon apparently but I've read that as well and it's very ambiguous.

bump again.

The Rule of Two novel actually describes what happened; he just rode a drexyl across a few hundred kilometers of vacuum, and protected himself and it through the Force. It's still impressive, albeit on a nexus, but not moon tugging.

Originally posted by The Merchant
Yeah, all that happened was Onderon and Dxun came super close together that they shared the same atmosphere and he rode on some Drexl to cross it. Now, I heard that this was a retcon and he did pull the Moon apparently but I've read that as well and it's very ambiguous. What Retcon was that, and when did he pull the moon?

If he's flying through space Ell then how does that mean he's on a nexus. Unless you're saying a planet's nexus extends beyond it's atmosphere?

I mean it probably doesn't magically end where the air does, and the planets were really close together. It's the best explanation given Bane's ineptitude.

But in all seriousness if the planet's atmosphere's don't intersect he's flying through space on a Drexl unaided by a nexus. Unless you're suggesting they expand beyond their own atmospheres.

Pretty sure Revan was able to draw on Malachor's power during the space battle that took place above it's surface.

EDIT:

That's Revan drawing it up there, its clearly not the rule.

I really don't care, I'm just pointing out that it's possible.

Its not like he uses it for power anyway, I mean it would probably use as much power doing that as you'd get back regardless.

Revan is able to draw upon the dark side energies of the planet below and use it during the battle seems a lot like he's drawing power from Malachor.

To corrupt Jedi and shit.

Fair enough. Thank you NG.

Originally posted by Syndicate
But in all seriousness if the planet's atmosphere's don't intersect he's flying through space on a Drexl unaided by a nexus. Unless you're suggesting they expand beyond their own atmospheres.

I don't think it makes sense for the nexus to be tied to the atmosphere.

*Shrug* I'd ask you if you had anything to support your opinion but NG has already provided sufficient evidence.