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This is BotS Bane, Revan at the end of KotOR, and it's a force fight!!

Why would you put Bane at his strongest and not Revan, to be fair it should be Post KOTOR Revan.

And Darth Revan =/= End of KOTOR Revan.

Probably Revan, but it's close.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Probably Revan, but it's close.

Bane in his prime would take down Revan. I would say very few could take down down Bane in his prime. Possibly DE Sidious and Luke Skywalker as of NJO, and maybe Nihilus because of his uber drain...

Bane as of BOTS can use the force to telekenetically manipulate objects of planetary magnitudes. His Orbalisks supply him with adrenaline and make him physically invincible to lightsaber blows. It was also mentioned that he was capable of regenerating from wounds caused by lightsaber blows.

In lightsaber battles, he moves so much faster than the eyes can see, which is similar to the speeds that Leia viewed Luke and Palpatine dueling at. He also trumped a lightsaber master whom spent decades perfecting each form in "round one." With Orbalisks continuously supplying adrenaline, his strength and speed would logically go up.

Revan would whoop bane. And who the fu(k ever stated bane could move faster than the eye can see? Thats pure bullshit , Each orbalisk scale weighs him down

Karapshyn put that down. Argue with him if you wish.



And you totally ignore the fact that they constantly supply adrenaline, the hormone which allows the body+mind to go into "hyperdrive," substantially increasing physical performance. This all, of course means, he becomes substantially stronger and faster than he ever was without them.

Hell, even if Bane did not have the force, he would be supernaturally fit and strong. The constant pumping of adrenaline would probably give him the ability to perform supernatural feats of power, aka Captain America.

That was only for a brief second zephiel, If bane could move faster than the eye can see why didnt he defeat kasim? O but he can move faster than the eye can see what, wow im impressed he couldnt defeat and instead was going to get ownd by kasim.

And you totally ignore the fact that the DSSB stated each scale weighs 1kg and the more you have, the more it slows you down and banes entir body was covered with it, True his body got faster with the adrenaline, But theres a side effect, The orbalisks limits his speed

Again revan can own bane with his powers

Originally posted by Kadesh
That was only for a brief second zephiel, If bane could move faster than the eye can see why didnt he defeat kasim? O but he can move faster than the eye can see what, wow im impressed he couldnt defeat and instead was going to get ownd by kasim.

Kadesh, did it ever occur to you that Kas'im was also moving at comparative speeds? Bane was winning "round one" either way you look around it...Kas'im even admits as much. Round two Kas'im was winning because he knew Bane inside out, whereas Bane knew nothing about the style Kas'im was employing.



Only the original orbalisks were 1kg. The orbalisks that "budded" later were far less in weight. I looked at them, the majority of them were less than 1/23rd of the size of the original parent, meaning less than 1/23rd of 1kg. In total I would approximate maybe 35 to 60 extra lbs, which means one thing: jack shit in the weight department, considering:

Each orbalisk pumps in adrenaline and strength. If we are talking maybe 500 orbalisks, then that would mean 500 times as much adrenaline. That would make him capable of supernatural feats of strength and speed, even without the force. Compound that with his extraordinary abilities in the force (able to manipulate moons with TK, tear through the walls of the Rakatan temple, and punch its foundations even after an exhausting duel ) physical invincibility and regenerative capabilities...I do not see how Revan wins.

What do you think that Revan was doing on Star Forge? Was he slow or something?

He had to be very fast in-order to dodge grenade attacks from many Elite Sith Troops. He had to be very strong in the Force to pawn all the Dark Jedi and Elite Troopers that he was facing. He had to be very consious to protect his allies from becoming victims in such a long and hard fight.

Do you see the Logic now. Revan can over-power and defeat Bane.

Dude, I think Revan is fast. I never said he wasn't. But faster than Bane? Where do you get that idea?



Or push it back. This is not really an effective point to back up your argument. They are just Sith troops, not even force sensitive.



The "dark Jedi" he was facing were cronies. Kyle Katarn faced off against several groups of no-named dark Jedi, some armoured with cortosis even. Does that make him able to defeat an opponent that "just" falls short of being physically invincible to even direct lightsaber blows and whose regenerative capabilities instantly repair him from wounds?

If Bane were forced to fight those dark Jedi aboard the star forge, I can very much see him wtfdestroying them. Same with DE Sidious or NJO Luke.



Your point? How much were there with him? Would they not be able to defend for themselves?

Bane's force powers are nothing short of incredible. How is Revan going to overcome his defenses? Especially one that is resistant to direct lightsaber blows and covers nearly all his body, also regenerating him from direct wounds?

Not to mention his host of other abilities, one of which involves TK'ing planetary bodies.

Kyle Katarn's achievements were different, Zephiel. He was a neophyte with virtually no ability, and yet he managed to take down some of the Emperor's finest dark Jedi - including Sariss and Jerec (who possessed the power of the Valley - which imbued him with enough strength to wipe out a solar system).

Advent's proved this to death, he's very well among the very best swordsmen.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Kadesh, did it ever occur to you that Kas'im was also moving at comparative speeds? Bane was winning "round one" either way you look around it...Kas'im even admits as much. Round two Kas'im was winning because he knew Bane inside out, whereas Bane knew nothing about the style Kas'im was employing.
No, because DK clearly wrote down there that they were fighting at speeds visible, not faster than the eye could see

Originally posted by zephiel7

Only the original orbalisks were 1kg. The orbalisks that "budded" later were far less in weight. I looked at them, the majority of them were less than 1/23rd of the size of the original parent, meaning less than 1/23rd of 1kg. In total I would approximate maybe 35 to 60 extra lbs, which means one thing: jack shit in the weight department, considering:
1/23 the size? Are you kidding me?
His Entire body was covered with orbalisks and each scale no matter how small still has weight, and his entire body is covered with them, yes he may be fast but what about his agility? His reflexs?
Doesnt the orbalisk restrict that?

Originally posted by zephiel7

Each orbalisk pumps in adrenaline and strength. If we are talking maybe 500 orbalisks, then that would mean 500 times as much adrenaline. That would make him capable of supernatural feats of strength and speed, even without the force. Compound that with his extraordinary abilities in the force (able to manipulate moons with TK, tear through the walls of the Rakatan temple, and punch its foundations even after an exhausting duel ) physical invincibility and regenerative capabilities...I do not see how Revan wins. Bullshit, when has bane ever pulled the goddam moon? This shit keeps getting refuted time and over again, he only planned to do so but did we see him do it? Who knows? There were so many undamaged ships on dxun that he could have used . And by what you are saying it sounds like Zomg bane > palpatine, Bane would piss in his pants if he had met revan

Revan's knowledge base is definitely superior to Bane's, this is fact. On that alone I would give the fight to Revan, not to mention the majority of everything Bane knows(if not everything), is attributed to Revan, meaning Revan knows the techniques as well.

Knowledge isn't everything, I'm of the belief that actual strength with the force is far far greater than knowledge of multiple techniques, and by BotS, Bane's knowledge base it pretty considerable too, having learned from both Revan's holocron and the holocron in Nadd's tomb.

Hah, no. Go to the "Bane nuged a moon 11!!!111!!" topic me and LS have already proved the little feat the fanbois are creaming their pants over as not that impressive.




Not impressive, he nuged it, and since you can't quantify the feat its really meaningless, How much force energy does it take to move a moon? Was Bane tired after? Could others who are stronger then him duplicate it? Its meningless. The Sea Shells I'm under the impression after multiple blows give way?



No, we've been through this. HE DID IT ONCE, And that was because he had gathered up the force energy to do so the book says it, stop lying.




Thats completely illogical, if Bane was dead tired from a lightsaber duel and force wave then how the f*ck can his heart survive adreanline being pumped CONSTATNLY? What your implying is just stupid, with no down time from his little boost, the dude would have a heart attack, he is still a human, he would suffer from chronic hypertension, and after about a day he'd probaly die. And this is all based on if he himself was the only one producing the Epinephrine (Adernaline) if he has over what 100 beings who constantly produce the chemical, being pumped without limit with no down time he'd die with in an hour(if that) from a heart attack/heart failure.



Yeah for about 5 minuntes as every other real world human can do, with enough adrenaline I could probably lift a car a small amount. If a lightsaber duel got to frantic on the level of Ani v Ob1 or even his Kas'im duel his heart would likely explode(well not explode but just stop)

So what we can conclude that the Sea Shells don't pump it constatnly but in times of duress like a duel, if they did he wouldn't be able to sleep, he wouldn't be able to sit still for longer then five seconds, his eyes would dialated constatnly, and he'd probably go made from being stuck in that state of hyper awareness. Now even in a due, he'd have to be careful it doesn't go on to long, or otherwise his heart would go *poof* All Revan or anyone has to do is simply stall the duel long enough for the Sea Shells to kill him.

Then we have the fact that Revan is stronger then Sea Shells in the force, *see my other topic Post Kotor Revan v Exar and Bane* if we wanna go by your logic that the "Stronger you are in the force the better lightsaber duelist you are" then Revan = Leet in lightsaber skillz too. Also Revan TAUGHT Sea Shells. Revan know everything Bane will pull out and thensome

Sea Shells gets WTFpwned by Post Kotor Revan.

Kadesh, Bane did pull a moon out of orbit, I have effectively proven this, just click on the link in my sig.

And he did move faster than the eye can see, the eyes of powerful darksiders in fact.

And me and LS have proved this in about a couple of hours to be you know not that impressive. Size matters not.



Yeah after gathering up DS energy.

1. You and Lightsnake didn't prove shit, I just couldn't be bothered to argue against a page long argument with about 100 flaws in it. The fact is, it doesn't take a genius to work out that pulling a moon out of orbit requires much more force than any of the crap that Yoda did, Yoda has never displayed that kind of power, and there have been situations where it would have been beneficial. Face it, the little green muppet sucks ass.

2. That wasn't dark side energy, you obviously have no clue how to interpret literature, the energy was a metaphor representing how much he had held back in their duel, and how desperate he was to go full out and destroy Sirak.

Lol sure kiddo. Thats always your excuse for when you get owned, "I couldn't be bothered." LOL



Whips out PoD

"He waited till the last possible second before unleashing the energy bottled up inside him in a tremendous rush of power. He channled it through his muscels and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped to the rest of the world....The fury and focus that had turned him into a conduit of the dark side's unstoppable power was gone, replaced by hyperconcious awarness of his physical surrondings." - PoD pg 171

You were saying my very intelligent friend

Papa B, how about you post the 2 paragraphs just before that, K?

"When the Zabraks desperation turned to hopelessness, every impulse in Bane screamed with the desire to take the initiative and end the fight. Instead he let the tantalizing closeness of Siraks defeat feed his appetite for vengeance. The hunger grew with each passing second until it became physical pain tearing away at his insides: The dark side filled him and he felt it on the verge of ripping him apart, splitting his skin and gushing out like a fountain of black blood"

You were saying my oh so intelligent friend

Sexyback, your one of the most ignorant people I've ever seen. Its really very irritating.

OK, look here Mr Nintendo, if anyone's ignorant here, it's you, seeing as you haven't even read PoD, and you're basing everything off of what you've seen in this thread. Now know this, AC is wrong, I'm right, and as soon as I get to my laptop which has PoD in EBook form (it's easier to copy and paste that way, can't be bothered to directly type out some fat passage from my book), I'll prove him wrong.

Whats there too prove wrong? I gave you the passage you asked for, which in itself proved you wrong. Your a retard. Face it.

Reading much?

Its irrelevant

"In the end his Patience was rewarded. Sirak became more and more frustrated as he continually tried and failed to bring his bumbling, stumbling opponent down. As the prolonged physical exertion took its toll, his swings became wild and reckless, until he abandoned all pretense of defense in an effort to end the duel he sensed was slipping away from him."

Irrelevant.

Well AC, seeing as you've got so much energy in you, how about typing out the entire fight?

No, its a waste of my time, the only relevant points are at the end what I posted, sure he could have beat Sirak at anytime but he wouldn't have had the explosion of speed. Thats the point.

1. Bane didn't pull anything out of orbit planet. You're the only one who thinks he's proven it but denial is hilarious.
2. The holocron in Nadd's tomb was the holocron he got his rule of two idea, and since BOTS was retconned by POD, then he didn't get any holocron from Nadd's tomb, instead getting the holocron on Rakata Prime.

1. It's funny how AC and other members who originally didn't believe it accepted it in the thread in my sig.

2. The only thing in BotS that was retconned was that he came up with the rule from the holocron he found in Freedon's tomb, the fact that he did get the holocron was never retconned.

I haven't seen anything disproven.



Given how people are having multiple orgasms over how Yoda "moved a mountain" I would say a lot. Given that the beast moon probably encompassed several thousand mountains, I would state that puts his TK at a whooping high.



I am under the impression that they don't. I haven't read or heard anything that states otherwise.



He was having fun toying with Sirak, when he decided to release his true power, he wtfdestroyed him. The passages in PoD are basically the author trying to make Bane's speed interesting.

He is not going to say, Bane moved faster than the eyes could see and tooled Sirak.

He was using imagery and whatnot to describe how Bane was enjoying crushing Sirak, and when he tried he unleashed the darkside and moved faster than the eyes could see.



SW bastardizes many a known law in physics, biology, and chemistry. The force, wtf? The darkside was probably sustaining his "cardiac stability," so to speak, such that the extra adrenaline was only adding beneficial effects.

Kaan mentions, "the pain is a small price to pay. You will soon understand the benefit of these symbiotes"

If an orbalisk attached to me or you, the extra adrenaline would probably fvck us over as we would most likely die from a heart attack from all the exra adrenaline. On a sith lord, especially of Bane's calibur, the darkside would sustain his heart and other functions such that only the benefits of the adrenaline are realized.

Sion on one hand was able to maintain his body, despite everything already being fvcked up. He learned the same secrets as Revan did from Malachor 5. Bane learned everything from Revan. He probably found a way to maintain his heart despite all the extra adrenaline



The darkside allowed him to reach a state such that the epinephrine doesn't **** over his heart. The orbalisks were never stated to have the risk of giving heart attacks. Why, because Bane had enough dark power to counter the mal-effects, meaning they can't destroy him.



Have you proven he is better than Bane, because I do not see it.



Bane learned from Nadd's holocron aswell as Revan's. Simply teaching does not mean you are stronger. Plagueis taught Sidious, does that mean Sid's was weaker? Bane's TK, his sheer display of force power, was always a little over Revan.

With all that said, the battle would be close as hell.

Originally posted by Sexyback
OK, look here Mr Nintendo, if anyone's ignorant here, it's you, seeing as you haven't even read PoD, and you're basing everything off of what you've seen in this thread. Now know this, AC is wrong, I'm right, and as soon as I get to my laptop which has PoD in EBook form (it's easier to copy and paste that way, can't be bothered to directly type out some fat passage from my book), I'll prove him wrong.

How the hell do you know what I have and have not read? Wtf?

Secondly I was referring to not only this thread, but pretty much everything you post. You are in complete denial of anything that disputes your lover Darth Bane being "teh m0st ub3r eva!1 LOLz ZOMg!!11 pWn3d n00b!!11" and its irritating. You just hear what you want to hear and ignore anything that doesn't fit within your skewed ridiculous views. You then assert that "you've beaten and or proven someone or something wrong" when all you've done is state something utterly retarded and ignored everyone else, who BTW usually prove you wrong almost every time. Your "theories" are vague and usually completely bias, your debating skills are sub-par at best, you create threads to attempt to discredit anyone or anything you don't like or don't agree with, and your quite possibly one of the most ignorant and annoying people to grace these boards in the 3+ years that I've been here.

So let me get this straight.. we're still buddies right?

Ok I typed a long ass response but my computer f*cked it up, if I seem angry don't take it to seriously.



Well considering you practically love the character giving him exaggerated feats, I wouldn't think your opinion of his would be swayed easily.




QUANTIFY IT. Yoda IS Stronger then Bane, Transitive Property, it actually works out in this case, simply because he isn't moving moons (why the hell would Yoda or anyone else for that matter need to move a planet?) doesn't mean Bane > All. One unquantified feat does not make him some sort of god, like his fanbois want us to think.



I was asking a question hence the "?"






And? What the hell is your point? He could have beaten Sirak at any time, so what. Had he done so earlier he wouldn't have had the little speed burst, FACT, the author says he started gathering the DS energy at the end of the duel. FACT.





Thats so f*cking stupid its sad, so now: "Oh its teh Ds doin It yall!!" For that utterly ridicules assumption to be true the Dark Side would have to:

A. Calm People, which it doesn'y do, it fuels hatred and rage thus effectively making Banes condition WORSE

B. Control individual functions of the body, while Bane does other tasks at the same time.



Oh yea I guess the narcissistic, coward who's only care in life was keeping his dumb position as "Head" of the Brotherhood, was also quite fond of the Dxun wildlife and also planned to have a zoo there after the whole mess with the Army of Light was done.



See above, illogical, your attributing the Dark Side to things it can't do. If this was the case since the force is limit less, NOBODY should get tired. And yet we see people who are even stronger then Bane, Palpainte, gasping for air after his duel with Yoda (ROTS novel) and dead tired. Why didn't he simply use the Dark Side to slow his body down so he could catch his breath? We have Bane who after his duel with Kas'im collapsed into exhaustion, why didn't he simply use the Dark Side to do as above and get up two seconds latter, why didn't he use the Dark Side to make himself a toaster and some bread so he could eat while on the moon?

Now if Bane who at that point in the novel believed he could move planets gets tired still your assuming that an unsubstantiated power up from some random holocron now gives him some powers Palapatine doesn't even do, it now gives him the powers to use the Dark Side to CALM himself in times of duress? Please.



Sion is an anomaly, we don't know what type of tortures he had to go through to attain his power, and moreover he's being held together by sheer will and hate, these things would make matters for Sea Shells worse, as hate and rage get the blood pumping and the heart racing.

Your assuming Revan did in fact know what Sion could do and could mimic it, which is illogical since Revan isn't a walking scab. Your assuming Revan even taught Bane the power, Your assuming the power is even possible by anyone outside of Sion, Your assuming that Revan taught Bane EVERYTHING, Your assuming Revan even filled the holocron with ALL his knowledge, Your assuming the topic even came up "So Revan teach me how to calm myself using the Dark Side." Your assuming alot.





Ok were gonna go and look at just how dumb the shit your trying to pull out your ass is.

To beat Revan, Bane would have to:

1. Concentrate on all of Revans movements with 100% focus (He himself states that if he hadn't have been focusing 100% on Kas'im's movements he'd be torn to ribbons, and Revan is most certainly a foe that you'd need 100% focus on to not be ass raped.

2. While at the same time he's focusing on Revans movements, he'd have to use the Dark Side to fuel himself

3. While using the Dark Side to fuel himself, he'd need to concentrate on slowing his vital systems that might stop working because of the stupid amounts of Adrenaline being juiced into him in combination with the Dark Side speeding him up

4. While doing all of the above he'd have to "feed" the Sea Shells with Dark Side energy to sustain them on his body and keep the Adrenaline up.

The man is still HUMAN.

Bane either kills himself or Revan shoves his saber through his face mask.





I just did.




No he learned from a holocron in Nadd's tomb and considering Nadds tomb has been raided multiple times I doubt that holocron had anything of real value in it.

When has Sea Shells EVER been described as blinding? When was Sea Shells name synonymous with power? When has anyone been able to actually see the force moving around him when he was at a rest state? Never, in all cases.



Sea Shells kills himself, or Revan kills him either way

Revan > Bane.

Originally posted by Sexyback
So let me get this straight.. we're still buddies right?

Yea sure, I'll just start taking everything you say as a joke. If I did that then I'd be fine with whatever you are saying. Just at the end of every post you make write:

*BA! DING! CHISSH!!!*

Then we'll have have a good laugh and get back to our lives. Cool?

Lord Qordis, exalted Master of the Sith Academy on Korriban, scratched gently at his chin with long, talon-like fingers.
"This student you have brought me-this Bane-has never been trained in the ways of the Force?"
Kopecz shook his head and twitched his lekku ever so slightly in annoyance. "As I told you before, Qordis, he grew up on Apatros, a world controlled by the ORO Company."
"Yet you managed to find this young man and bring him here to the Academy. It seems almost too convenient."
The heavyset Twi'lek snarled. "This is not a plot against you, Qordis. That is no longer our way. We are a Brotherhood now, remember? You are too suspicious."
Qordis laughed. "Not suspicious; cautious. It has helped me to maintain my position here among so many powerful and ambitious young Sith."
"He is as powerful as any of them," Kopecz insisted.
"But he is also older. We prefer to find our students when they are younger and more ... malleable." "Now you sound like a Jedi," Kopecz sneered. "They seek younger and younger pupils, hoping to find them pure and innocent. In time they will refuse any who are not infants. We must be quick to pluck those they leave behind. Besides," he continued, "Bane is too strong to simply pass over, even for the Jedi. We are lucky we found him before they did."
"Yes, lucky," Qordis echoed, his voice dripping with sarcasm. "His arrival here seems to be an incredible turn of many fortuitous events. Quite lucky indeed."
"Some might see it that way," Kopecz admitted. "Others might see it as something more. Destiny, perhaps."
There was silence while Qordis considered his longtime rival's words. "The other acolytes have been training for many years. He will be far behind," he said at last.
"He will catch up, if given the chance," Kopecz insisted.
"And I wonder ... will the others give him that chance? Not if they are smart. I'm afraid we may simply be throwing away one of Lord Kaan's best troopers."
"We both know the Jedi won't be defeated by soldiers," Kopecz snapped. "I'd gladly trade a thousand of our best troopers for even one Sith Master."
Qordis seemed taken aback by his passionate reaction.
"He is that strong, is he? This Bane?" Kopecz nodded. "I think he might be the one we've been searching for. He could be the Sith'ari."
"Before he can claim that title," Qordis said with a cunning smile, "he'll have to survive his training."

AC, the Sith'ari was prophesied as being a 'perfect being', 'the ultimate Sith', and an 'almost immortal being'. Now the fact that Kopecz believed that Bane might be the sith'ari, before he had ever been trained and after only seeing him in person once speaks volumes.

Anything describing Revan's power as blinding or whatnot is simply hyperbole, until we can actually get some concrete info on the guy, we can't deduce him s being above a guy who can play ping pong with moons. Sure, we can deduce that he's very powerful, but not as powerful as Bane, to argue that is pure fanboyism.

And Revan and Bane both picked their names, so I really don't see where you're going with your second point here.. But I suppose because Revan's name is so damn cool, he automatically gets brownie points.

:erm:

If Bane is the Sith'ari, Planet, I could be a jerk and point out that the Sith'ari's destiny is "to make the Sith stronger". I could be an even bigger jerk and point out that that would imply that every Sith after him is more powerful than he is.

The Sith Order, Gideon, not the individual sith.

Now prove that he was actually the Sith'ari, with a definite quote saying it, Revan could actually be it it as the KOTOR story seemed to imply (the fact that it was even brought up in the game with no actual relevance to Bane) Revan destroyed the Sith and in turn made them stronger, And really who cares what some fat ass (Kopecz) thinks is he the leading historian on the Sith? No. Do they live in a time when legends of old and stories run rampant? Yes. Do they live in a time where anyone young and remotely strong = OMG Liek Sith'ari!!!! Yes (see Sirak, the bum who couldn't even produce more then a bolt of Force Lightning) Oh course Bane is gonna look like a god surrounded by so much shit.

Anyways, so the Sith'ari is a prophesied perfect being...does that mean it will happen? No. The chosen one was a prophesied god of the force literally, did that happen...not quite...And the original Sith'Ari King Adas was no perfect being either.



According to whom? How is it hyperbole? It wasn't exaggerated the damn force ghost of Ajunta Pal was literally blinded by Revans sheer power. Especially when pretty much EVERYONE in KOTOR says the same thing.

Take Sea Shells dick out your mouth, the guy NUDGED a moon, he didn't take the moon for a spin and ride around the universe, and you can't quantify the feat, so its highly likely that mostly every one who is stronger then him, Revan, Sidious, Yoda, Luke, Exar Kun, ect ect could do the same. The fact is THEY DON'T HAVE TO.

FEAT WARS/10



Wow you are a dipshit aren't you? Rhetorical question. Revan doesn't mean power, Revan actually means the "to return" but thats irrelevant, the POINT was Kreia said "Revan was power" hence "Revans name was synonymous with power."

Yes you are a rtard, and wipe Banes but off your lips.

But seriously man I don't see where the rampant fanboyism for Bane comes from, he quite possibly the most visually (Before the Sea Shells) bland character out of the Sith, he's a big bald guy, are you into skin heads or generic wrestlers? At least with Revan you can make the character you, with Yoda he's you know a green pimp, with Vader he's a oreo literally, Exar Kun has a pony tail, And pretty much every other character has something going for them, I don't see his appeal.

And before PoD, story wise he was even blander, he was an angry Sith Lord who killed kids for no reason, then in BOTS he was a pussy scared of ghosts.

I don't see how this guy inspires so many retarded fanboys.

**** it, I just had a major big argument ready to post, and my damn IE stopped fecking responding, so I'll reply to a few of your points.



You can't quantify half the crap that you come up with. In fact, just go and try quantifying anything Revan has done. The fact is, this is a fricking moon we're talking about, the kind of raw power required to move something of that mass is beyond anything anyone else has done, with the exception of Luke, Palpatine, and Nihilus.

Now your argument is very ridiculous, and the reason why is you're using the fact that before it was proven that Bane pulled a moon out of orbit, these people were considered greater than he was, yet now that it's been proven, you're using conclusions of arguments that were made with incomplete evidence to downplay the feat, which is fallacious beyond belief. It's something you do a lot, in most of your other essay long arguments that I can never be bothered to respond to.

Translation: I can't debate worth a shit, so instead of actual proving your points wrong I'm gonna whine, and hype up my lover instead.

Size Matters Not, Quantify it. Im still waiting for you to, every thing I've listed for Revan has been quantified, and has reasoning behind why I even posted it, and it has comparisons to others. Thats a well placed argument, yours isn't. Quantify it. Till you do that, and prove that others who are stronger can't, its not really that impressive. Feat Wars wont save your sorry ass debating skills.



Dude I don't care what you respond to, its not like I take you serious anyways. these people are and were still stronger then him regardless of the feat, you sucking his balls won't change that. I've already disprove any argument that would support Bane, He'd likely kill himself or Revan would shove his saber through his face mask. I find it very funny how you can call Revan an unknown when I can produce a page's worth of VALID feats and quotes. While with Bane your arguments ranges around "OMG he NuGeddas a MOOOOOnnn!!!!"

Again wipe Banes cum off your chin.

There are only two candidates for Sith'ari, and Bane fits the sith'ari perfectly. Moreso than Revan even. You see, Revan destroyed the sith and accidentally made them more powerful, not to mention he went back to the light side, so there is NO way he can be the sith'ari. I don't know where people get the idea that the sith'ari is a perfect being, that's the chosen one. Anyways, Bane destroyed the sith completely and made them invincible as a result, so he is the sith'ari.

No offense but I really don't care about the Sith'ari crap, it has no relevance in this debate, Bane was not a perfect being...far from it.

I love how people love to echo Yoda's cryptic words whenever they want to downplay a great usage of TK, but the point is, weight (size is a bad variable to use, I'll use weight instead) does matter in regards to TK, it affects how much force is needed to lift something, arguing against this is arguing against logic, and unless you want to argue that a jedi padawan could pick up a house as easily he could a boulder, you have no argument.

And please, it's nice how you and Lightsnake try to disregard the argument of Bane nudging a moon out of orbit, when you both get boners over Yoda lifting up a mountain with the force, when that itself is no more quantify-able than Bane pulling the moon out of orbit.

Yeah, if the Padawan was strong enough in the force and had the mental discipline to know that size and weight is irrelevant in the force, Luke says the same thing when he effortlessly destroys an AT AT in Dark Empire, Size Matters Not. And we have proof of beings stronger then Bane (Yoda, Sidious, Luke, Exar, Revan, Jacen ect ect) who could mimic it, if they had to, the fact is, no one ever needs to move a planet.



Actually LS is the only one who tries to match feats with you, I personally deem it as a waste of time, because the said character is CONFIRMED stronger then Bane. So its pointless.

Not that this is(Yoda) all irrelevant misdirection on your part since you can't quantify the feat and you can't prove Bane > Revan. Nice try though little guy.

Bullshit! Why is it that Luke struggles applying TK to a Dovin Basel (sp?) in Vector Prime, yet is effortlessly able to pick up a tiny remote droid with the force in Betrayal, then? Dude, this argument has been proven wrong again and again, relying on cryptic quotes to try and downplay Bane is ridiculous.



Again, your argument is very ridiculous, and the reason why is you're using the fact that before it was proven that Bane pulled a moon out of orbit, these people were considered greater than he was, yet now that it's been proven, you're using conclusions of arguments that were made with incomplete evidence to downplay the feat, which is fallacious beyond belief.

How about trying to prove that any of those with the exception of Yoda or Sidious are greater than Bane?

No, he hasn't been confirmed to be stronger than Bane, the only arguments supporting that were the NEC and DSSB ones, and I've disproven both of them.



You can't quantify anything for Revan, so by your logic, all of his feats should just be ignored, yes? Now you can whine all you want about already quantifying it, but you haven't. But I'm sure you'll persist in saying that you have, so how about this, post one of Revan's feats right here, and quantify it!

Originally posted by Sexyback
Bullshit! Why is it that Luke struggles applying TK to a Dovin Basel (sp?) in Vector Prime, yet is effortlessly able to pick up a tiny remote droid with the force in Betrayal, then? Dude, this argument has been proven wrong again and again, relying on cryptic quotes to try and downplay Bane is ridiculous.


See had Vector Prime not been a Zhan book where he was attempting to down play Lukes abilites, and had you not been using two different books with different views on how the force should be handled you'd have a point. And I'm still waiting for you to quantify the feat.




Post KOTOR Revan > Sea Shells

Revan has a stronger force connection:

Revan's connection is constantly being described as uber to the maxX7 Right Guard power band. Mater Dorak and Vandar said that Revan has one of the strongest connections to the force they've ever seen. His name is synonymous with power. He was called the heart of the force. Ajunta Pal when he looked upon Revan described the power he saw as "blinding". You could literally SEE the force swirling around Revan as Jolee said.

He was so powerful in the force not even the combined efforts of the Jedi council could keep his mind suppressed. Revan had such control and power in the force that he literally ripped an entire dialect system out of an entire species head, the proceeded to "force" Basic into the whole races minds. If he could toy with the minds of force sensitives (The Rataka Elders) so easily he could apply the same thing to destroying the brain. The Chronicles describe his dark side power as tremendous.

Darth Bane himself, literally crapped his pants in fear of the shit Revan knew, He himself was scared of the dark power and rituals Revan had under his command as a Dark Lord, he even said he wouldn't DARE ATTEMPT half the things Revan knew.

Vandar describes him as a prodigy, he had more knowledge of the Force then Bane could ever dream of:

Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith - The Chronicles

Revan was the strongest Sith in an order of hundreds, in turn he was the strongest Jedi in an order of hundreds

He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side.

He overpowered and feed on a planet drenched in the dark side a planet so powerful it broke Kreia:

she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. - The Chronicles

Revan according to Brianna (The Handmaiden) had the most powerful Battle Precognition the Galaxy had seen to that point, more powerful then the strongest of the Echani who could see MONTHS into the future and see battles before they even happened.

Then we have the fact that in Path of Destruction Revan is mentioned along side Exar Kun and Naga Sadow (they had no idea his feats were done by Amulet and ship) as the most power Sith, He is what Bane strives to be like.

Revan has beaten Malak on the Star Forge twice while he was being described by the databank as near invincible, and subsequently beat your girl the "force juggernaut" Bastila WHILE she was being pumped by the Star Foge FOUR TIMES. He beat Uthar Wynn and Yuthura, destroyed the Academy on Korriban. And he must have been physically extremely strong as well since he beat Madalore in hand to hand combat according to NEC.

He was also described as stronger as a Jedi then his tenure as Dark Lord (the version Bane pissed his pants over) then he REGAINS his knowledge from his run as a DOTS thus doubling his power.

To beat Revan, Bane would have to:

1. Concentrate on all of Revans movements with 100% focus (He himself states that if he hadn't have been focusing 100% on Kas'im's movements he'd be torn to ribbons, and Revan is most certainly a foe that you'd need 100% focus on to not be ass raped.

2. While at the same time he's focusing on Revans movements, he'd have to use the Dark Side to fuel himself

3. While using the Dark Side to fuel himself, he'd need to concentrate on slowing his vital systems that might stop working because of the stupid amounts of Adrenaline being juiced into him in combination with the Dark Side speeding him up

4. While doing all of the above he'd have to "feed" the Sea Shells with Dark Side energy to sustain them on his body and keep the Adrenaline up.

The man is still HUMAN.

Bane either kills himself or Revan shoves his saber through his face mask.



Revan > Sea Shells

You were saying

That's what you'd call an out-of-universe explanation, which has no relation to debates in respect to inside the SW universe.

Originally posted by Sexyback
That's what you'd call an out-of-universe explanation, which has no relation to debates in respect to inside the SW universe.

By that logic Lumiya is a match for DE Palpatine. U fail. Im still waiting for you to quantify the feat.

I haven't read the last LotF book, I have no clue what you're talking about, but that doesn't matter, anyone with common sense knows that out of universe explanations have no bearing on discussions from the perspective of inside the universe.

I'm still waiting for you to quantify 1 feat for Revan. Now quit pasting your entire argument, I don't have time to respond to the whole of it, so how about just posting 1 feat, and quantifying it.

Again by that logic Lumiya who actually put up a fight against Luke is on DE Sidious's level.

Stop being a lazy ***** and read it you can't claim I never quantified anything when you didn't even read it, dumbass. But since I'm in a good mood (Its 2007!) I will.

Revan overpowered and feed on Malachor V.

He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. - The Chronicles

A planet so powerful it broke Kreia:

"she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force" . - The Chronicles

This is a planet so powerful that it could overwhelm Jedi from space

"Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence." - The Chronicles

Now, since we have a comparison of what the planet could actually do to people who are strong in the force (Unlike the Bane feat which can't be substantiated because we have nothing to compare it too) we can say that Revan is inturn extremely powerful that he alone was more powerful then an ancient Sith Planet drenched in the Dark Side so powerful it broke Kreia a very powerful Jedi Master, that the planet broke and corrupted (from space!) Jedi after Jedi. We know it takes more power then a Jedi Master who can see 4000+ years into the future, who can kill masters with the flick of her hand, who can telekinetically wield 3(!) sabers in combat and have them perform on a master level at the same time. Her command of the force was awesome, and yet Revan succeeded in terms of raw power where she failed.

Quantified and Substantiated.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Again by that logic Lumiya who actually put up a fight against Luke is on DE Sidious's level.

Stop being a lazy ***** and read it you can't claim I never quantified anything when you didn't even read it, dumbass. But since I'm in a good mood (Its 2007!) I will.

Revan overpowered and feed on Malachor V.

He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. - The Chronicles

A planet so powerful it broke Kreia:

"she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force" . - The Chronicles

This is a planet so powerful that it could overwhelm Jedi from space

"Simultaneously, more and more Jedi, unable to ignore the power emanating from the planet below, become corrupted by its influence." - The Chronicles

Now, since we have a comparison of what the planet could actually do to people who are strong in the force (Unlike the Bane feat which can't be substantiated because we have nothing to compare it too) we can say that Revan is inturn extremely powerful that he alone was more powerful then an ancient Sith Planet drenched in the Dark Side so powerful it broke Kreia a very powerful Jedi Master, that the planet broke and corrupted (from space!) Jedi after Jedi. We know it takes more power then a Jedi Master who can see 4000+ years into the future, who can kill masters with the flick of her hand, who can telekinetically wield 3(!) sabers in combat and have them perform on a master level at the same time. Her command of the force was awesome, and yet Revan succeeded in terms of raw power where she failed.

Quantified and Substantiated.

In the new year's spirit, I would say "pwned".

HAHAHAHAHAHA Could this be a tie

Revan beats bane. I mean, only his reaction to revan's knowledge says almost anything to me. Also, adrenaline can only be used in short burts, a continous use from adrenaline would kill bane in less then 30 minuts.

It's damn close but revan wins

Just how good is Revan?

To me? I would put him slightly under yoda and sidious' power maybe. Due to his time, feats and statements of his power i wouldn't put him less then that. Yet, i find hard to make him stronger then sidious or yoda especially because they are amazing and, well, movie characters lol.

Ok, I only recently discovered this thread, and due to some Damn F*cking stupid arguments, I have been forced to act.


Firstoff, Sithari, you say that power is more important than knowledge, when in reality, with most people we see, they are interdependant.

It Was Napoleon Bonaparte, a man who was heralded as the greatest General of his day, that said "General-in-chief must be guided by their own experience, or their genius. Tactics, evolutions, the duties and knowledge of an engineer or artillery officer, may be learned in treatises, but the science of strategy is only to be acquired by experience, and by studying the campaigns of all the great captains.
Gustavus Adolphus, Turenne, and Frederick, as well as Alexander, Hannibal, and Caesar have all acted upon the same principles. These have been -- to keep their forces united; to leave no weak part unguarded; to seize with rapidity on important points."

He also said: "Peruse again and again the campaigns of Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Gustavus Adolphus, Turenne, Engene, and Frederick. Model yourself upon them. This is the only means of becoming a great captain, and of acquiring the secret of the art of war. Your own genius will be enlightened and improved by this study, and you will learn to reject all maxiums foreign to the principles of these great commanders."
He makes it a point to study those who came before him to learn their advantages, their skills, their weaknesses etc. And LEARN from them.

And they also study things that could be helpful, like a man going into a duel to the death with swords might study human anatomy, as it helps him land a decisive blow to either kill/mortally wound his opponent.

He also emphasises the need for Experience. Bane was a member of the Gloom Walkers, a unit that DID make some quite impressive feats in combat. However, even when we consider his defacto command of said unit, he was in command of a single infantry unit.

Revan, on the other hand, took control of a army that had been driven from dozens (AT LEAST) of planets, and was heavily demoralized, low in experience etc. and, like Pilsudski at the Battle of Warsaw in the 1920's, he ROUTED the enemy and eventually destroyed him. This while managing to groom his army discreetly for his eventual return as a Sith.

He also would have been able to have a larger base of knowledge not only on the Force techniques, but also on combat, on leadership etc.

These could prove to be a far more powerful factor than we may know.

But in order to reach that generalship, he had to be powerful enough to reach it. And He Was.

FACT: He killed Mandalore the Ultimate in fair combat face to face.

FACT: He killed The One (The Black Rakata Cheiftan) after fighting his way through his warriors, a man whose reputation was so fierece that in a tribal civilization that was dedicated to war, whose Cheiftan had to have been a skilled warrior, that Said Cheiftan abdicated peacefully at the mere CHALLENGE of The One to duel him for the Cheiftan's position.

FACT: He defeated dozens of Sith soldiers and acolytes while they were being powered by BOTH the Star Forge and Bastilla's Battle Meditation, with minimum aid.

FACT: Singlehandedly defeated first Bastila and than Malak alone. The latter of whom was regenerated completely at least once by captive Jedi.

FACT: Kreia, who had no doubt worked with many powerful Jedi, described him as "Looking at the Heart of the Force." This is not completely quantifiable, but you have to keep in mind that this was in a Jedi Order that was far better trained that the PT ones, and who had the knowledge of Lore, techniques etc that had passed into the realm of myth by the time of the PT.

FACT: He walked on the surface of Malachor V, a planet that corrupted Jedi FROM THE ORBITING BATTLE. A planet that shattered Kreia's resistence withing seconds of her stepping on the planet.

FACT: Malak described him as being far more powerful in the Light than he ever was in Darkness.

FACT: He defeated Calo Nord, a bounty hunter who learned his trade with a bounty on his head by TOYING with his hunters before ruthlessly finishing them off. And apparently there were dozens of those who perished trying to collect said bounty. A man who is said never let a target survive.

FACT: He defeated Darth Bandon, the man judged to be the strongest out of a Sith order of likely HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS and trained by Malak himself.

FACT: He won his way up to the bloody Swoop Campionship of MANAAN, THE CAPITAL OF SWOOP RACING AFTER THE LIQUIDATION OF TARIS!!!!

FACT: He killed Bendak Starkiller, a Mandalorian duelist who killed so many people in death matches THERE WAS A BOUNTY PUT OUT ON HIS HEAD!!!! And that was BEFORE he rediscovered force sensitivity.

FACT: He succeeded in doing what almost no other had done, being one of the VERY VERY few to gain the Tusken Raider's trust and admiration to the point that he learned their history. This in a species that was still regarded to be only animals THOUSANDS of years afterwards.

FACT: He killed Selven, a woman who killed off the Ulgos of Taris, despite all their guards, droids, and security measures.

FACT: Darth Bane, the other member of the deathmatch, judged Revan's holocron to be far superior to the ENTIRETY of the resources avalible for teaching the Brotherhood of Darkness COMBINED!!!!

FACT: Bane said that he would not dare to TRY some of the rituals Revan had done, as they were simply too dangerous.

FACT: He killed Sherruk, a Mandalorian who had killed many Jedi, alongside his entire gang, WHEN HE WAS STILL IN THE EARLY STAGES OF ReDISCOVERING THE FORCE!!!!

Ok than, we also know that Zephiel is crap on medicine, as he does not realize there is a point to us shooting the crap out of his stupid arguments about the "Dark Side calming his situation."

I am sorry, but if somebody has their adrenaline going on for too long a period or for too intense a period, it can rupture! Period.

And that is in a normal human being. If Bane has all the orbalisks pumping in this fight, speed is key, as if he is delayed to long, he will die. Hell, if he wins but the fight has gone on too long he will STILL die.

Thus, Bane is on the clock. Not Revan. If Revan can hold out for long enough, even if he does not land a killing blow, he will still win.


So the real question is if Bane can breach Revan's defense and kill or mortally wound him before he kills himself or before Revan learns his weakpoint and kills him.

The Dark Side cannot calm one down. It FUELS RAGE. That is what it does. It has been mentioned as such repeatedly in the series.

So it gets the Heart going even FASTER. WHICH MEANS BANE HAS EVEN LESS TIME!!!!

So, barring a miracle, I would give this to Revan.

Sith'ari, Zephiel, get an actual argument. It makes you look bad if you do not.

Damm that looks like fcking pwnage

Not really, some of those things are fact, a lot of those things are non canon gameplay. There are so many missions you can run in KOTOR, but that doesn't make any of them canon.

Actually, The VAST MAJORITY of those ARE certified canon. Some are still in the air. And Those would be *drumrollllllll* Bendak, the Tuskens, Selven, and Sherruk. And those are not due to a statement against them as to not being specifically stated as done. It is CANON that Revan was redeemed. It is Canon that he defeated the Black Rakata. If you doubt the Manaan championship, Buy KOTOR and go to the Onderonian Swoop Track and talk around and you will learn it.

So even if (for seemingly no reason) we were to assume that all of the ones that are "up in the air" turn out to be magically false, that still leaves the vast majority of what I listed as UNDISPUTABLE CANON FACTS!!!!!!

I also could have added in more in hindsight, like Chuundar, but it was late here on the Far-Left Coast, and I was tired.

You also forget that I made other points about why I believe that Revan will win.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Actually, The VAST MAJORITY of those ARE certified canon. Some are still in the air. And Those would be *drumrollllllll* Bendak, the Tuskens, Selven, and Sherruk. And those are not due to a statement against them as to not being specifically stated as done. It is CANON that Revan was redeemed. It is Canon that he defeated the Black Rakata. If you doubt the Manaan championship, Buy KOTOR and go to the Onderonian Swoop Track and talk around and you will learn it.

So even if (for seemingly no reason) we were to assume that all of the ones that are "up in the air" turn out to be magically false, that still leaves the vast majority of what I listed as UNDISPUTABLE CANON FACTS!!!!!!

I also could have added in more in hindsight, like Chuundar, but it was late here on the Far-Left Coast, and I was tired.

You also forget that I made other points about why I believe that Revan will win.

I'm not debating Revan's superiority over Bane, I'm stating that a lot of what you typed was as a result of gameplay and therefore non canon. I have played the game a million times and I know everything you're talking about.

Bane

Ummm, you just overshot the point entirely. Congratulations.

THE RESULTS OF MOST OF THE QUESTS HAVE BEEN EITHER DEEMED CANON OR NON-CANON!!!!!! AND SINCE LUCASARTS IS LOYAL TO THE LIGHTSIDE INTERPRITATION, PRETTY MUCH ALL I WROTE HAS INDEED BEEN CANONIZED!!!!!!!!! LOOK IT UP!!!!

Also, Lord Sidious, simply saying Bane is not an argument. No more than me merely saying Revan is. REASONS, EVIDENCE, AND THEORIES!!!! Please post them.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Ummm, you just overshot the point entirely. Congratulations.

THE RESULTS OF MOST OF THE QUESTS HAVE BEEN EITHER DEEMED CANON OR NON-CANON!!!!!! AND SINCE LUCASARTS IS LOYAL TO THE LIGHTSIDE INTERPRITATION, PRETTY MUCH ALL I WROTE HAS INDEED BEEN CANONIZED!!!!!!!!! LOOK IT UP!!!!

Also, Lord Sidious, simply saying Bane is not an argument. No more than me merely saying Revan is. REASONS, EVIDENCE, AND THEORIES!!!! Please post them.

Care to try again? All of the "extra" missions aren't canon. Try again though.

Um, ignorance is a nasty condition. By your definition, HK-47 is uncanotical as buying him is 100% optional. In Reality, it has been established as Canon. Please stop pulling things out of your butt to claim that the quests seperate from the main story line are uncanon.

Things from the main story line ARE uncanon unless confirmed by another source dumbshit.

I love Darth Sexy sometimes.

Ok Than. I have been trying to be polite and explain things NICELY. But apparently commonsense and Darth Sexy do not exist in the same universe, so let me spell it out for you:

Even if we took anything whose canon is up in the air and assume it is false, we still have those that are INDISPUTABLY CANON! It is stated as a FACT that Mandalore the Ultimate was killed in a duel with Revan. That is not in dispute. It is FACT that Revan managed to walk the surface of Malachor V and HARNESS IT while others were overwhelmed by it. IT IS FACT that Calo Nord and Darth Bandon were killed in battle against Revan. There is no getting around that.

IT IS FACT that Revan won the Swoop Championship on Manaan. It IS CONFIRMED BY ANOTHER SOURCE: KOTOR II (dumbshit).

IT IS FACT THAT REVAN DEFEAT DOZENS OF SITH ACOLYTES AND SOLDIERS ON THE STAR FORGE WHEN THEY WERE DRAWING BOTH FROM IT AND FROM BASTILA'S BATTLE MEDITATION!!!!!!!!

Now, you have not answered ANYTHING!!!!!

You have yelled, screamed, kicked, and cussed me while I make rational arguments and you do not want to hear them.

So, Dumbshit, if you refuse to debate me RATIONALLY than get your ass off the forum.

Originally posted by Advent
I love Darth Sexy sometimes.

You're either coming on to me or ridiculing me. Either way, I win

And douchebag(whoever you are), you don't know the difference between canon and non canon, main storyline and extra missions.

Ok than. DO NOT TREAT ME LIKE I AM STUPID! I AM NOT! The Primary quests are those that are needed to progress the main plot forward, those are (these are the basic summaries, I concede that I cannot remeber every single quest name, and they are for the light side, I have never played on the Dark side) Also, I KNOW SOME OF THESE ARE NOT OFFICIALLY QUESTS! THEY ARE THE BARE MINIMUM FOR FINISHING THE GAME ON THE LIGHTSIDE! AND I MEAN BARE BONE MINIMUM!
*The Endar Spire
*The Search For Bastila
*Acquiring a Uniform
*Rescuing Zalabar
*Recovering the Prototype Accelorator from Doton and his thugs *Winning the Race
*Killing Brejik and his compadres
*Buying A Droid (T3-M4 from Janice Nall)
*Killing Davik and Subduing Calo
*Stealing the Ebon Hawk
*Escaping Taris
*Shooting down the fighters
*Training With The Jedi
*The Corrupt Grove (Juhani)
*Getting A Hunter's Passport (Tatooine)
*Killing the Krayt Dragon and the Star Map
*Dealing With Calo Nord (On the First Star Map you Acquire)
*The "Madclaw" (Freyer) Quest on Kasshyyk
*Dealing with the Poachers so that Jolee will lower the shield, *Deciding Freyer's Fate
*Getting the Blade out of the Terentatek's hide
*Dealing With Bandon (Second Star Map You Aquire)
*The Wookiee Revolt
*Going to the Republic Embassy (Manaan)
*Breaching the Sith Embassy (Manaan)
*Clearing said Embassy
*Exonerating yourself from the Tribunal
*Going down to the Haraket Rift
*Destroying the Mining Equipment
*getting the star Map
*Exonerating yourself from the tribunal part Two
*The Leviation
*The lone character staging the breakout
*the fight to the bridge
*the duel against Saul and his men
*Duel with Malak
*Gaining Entrance to the Academy (Korriban)
*The Prestige Challenge, which include:
*Ajunta Pall's Blade
*The Sith Deserters
*The Rebelling Assassin Droid
*Lashowe's Gambit
*Jorak Uln's "Purity Test"
*The Mandalorian POW
*The Code of the Sith
Not All of them need to be finished
*The Final Test
*The Betrayals
*Going to The Unkown World/Lehon
*Deciding Your Ally among the Rakata
*Killing the One
*The Ritual to Open the Temple
*The fight up
*the final choice between Light and Dark
*The Duel against Bastilla
*Shutting down the Disruptor field
*Fighting through the Star Forge
*The Duel with Bastilla to the Death (or redemption)
*Dealing with the Star Forge droids
*The Grand Finale against Malak

THAT is the sheer minimum to finish the game for the lightside. That is removing EVERYTHING not needed to advance the LS storyline. Everything else is pretty much optional, Character Development, gambling, The Swoop racing, the Side Quests, the Geoharadan etc. HOWEVER, JUST BECAUSE IT IS OPTIONAL IN THE GAME DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT WAS AUTOMATICALLY NOT DONE IN-CANON!!!!!!!

I have spelled it out for you, and yet you insult ME as stupid when I give you arguments that debunk your yelling and slander, and yet YOU CONTINUE TO HARASS ME FOR NO GOOD REASON!!!!!!!!

If Anybody here has the right to call somebody dumbshit and douchebag, it is me to you, as you continue to make useless and false slander in place of intelligent and rational argument, you CLEARLY have not checked up on ANY of the Info I have given you, and despite my attempts to reason with you in my 'slightly irritated but polite' voice, and you just verbally harassed me! I have alerted the Mods to your harassment and I will await their response. And I will also see if you make anything that RESEMBLES a rational argument.

If you CAN make a rational argument against me, than I am waiting to see it.

The countdown to Darth Sexy calling me an evil SS intimidator and thug starts in 10. 9. 8. 7. 6. 5. 4. 3. 2. 1........

No 1 knows what happens to ajuntas sex blade vibrator ok? Kreia stated it is unknown to what happed to it, revan could have gave it to uthar, revan could have chucked it away OR revan could have used it as a sex toy against bastila

I KNOW that he could have done anything with it. THAT is why I put in:
"Not all of them Need to be Finished." I merely added it in as Sexy apparently thinks I cannot tell the difference between the main story and the side quests, so I listed the bare minimum to finish the game as LS. Korriban is structured differently than most; you have the choice of what you finish, so I added them all in to the list with the disclaimer.

All because Darth Sexy was acting stupid and harassing me.

morons.

Are you calling me a moron

No, the whole concept of Yoda>Revan due to some quote.

Um, Excuse me???? Where did I say Yoda<Revan???? As skilled as Revan was, it is VERY hard to imagine him competing with 800+ years (more or Less) of experience. You claimed that I could not tell the difference between OPTIONAL-TO-THE-GAME Sidequests and NECESSARY-TO-THE-GAME MAIN QUESTS!

I have proven you wrong. You have slandered me when I was making rational arguments and you were merely sniping at me for a convoluted and false reason. If you cannot be trusted to not start fights for no good reason, cannot be trusted to see past your own pride, than I believe that the Mods would like to here my Story.

Revan and the Hunt for the Star Maps:

Leland Chee has confirmed that Revan has taken the Light path through the journey to the Star Forge and defeated the Dark Lord Malak as a prodigal knight.

The Star Wars Databank, on the profile of Bastila Shan said the following:

The captive Revan underwent a memory wipe, and was given a new identity. This new persona was paired with Bastila Shan in the search for Darth Malak and the Star Forge. Bastila kept a wary eye on Revan, always alert at signs of the dark side. Such an awareness opened her to the dark side more than she intended. The quest for the Star Forge, which spanned worlds, kept Revan and Bastila working side-by-side, and thrust Bastila into difficult and challenging roles as a Jedi.

So as you can see, we see that the Ebon Hawk and her crew traveled to many of the planets and faced difficult tasks, while recruiting more characters, and doing many other things.

Even though gameplay is noncannon, most of the "actual" events and cutscenes are true. Tortoise Herder has provided events/trials that the Ebon Hawk and her crew faced, he is not saying that Revan was capable of doing "REVAN can do Master Speed and Force Drain in rapid succession....".

For example, Tortoise's examples of true events like the "The Wookiee Revolt" is proven in the profile of Zaalbar, from Databank:

She more than returned the favor -- when Zaalbar was captured by Gamorrean slavers in the deep sewers of the Taris Undercity, Mission was able to free him with the help of newfound Republic fugitive friends. Zaalbar accompanied Mission as she joined the hunt for Darth Malak and his sinister Star Forge plot. This galaxy-spanning quest would eventually bring Zaalbar back to Kashyyyk, where he was able to face his dark past once and for all.

By him dealing with his dark past once and for all, this proves that Zaalbar has dealt with Chuundar and Freyyr, which the LS decision results in the Wookie Revolt.

Thanks General. I appreciate the help.

My points are that:
1. There is definitive proof Revan did AT LEAST some of the quests that are optional ingame.
2. He was canon LS.
3. Darth Sexy needs to stop pulling excuses out of his ass that are useless and false.
4. The douchebag/dumbshit Darth Sexy needs to stop falsely insulting and slandering those that actually KNOW WHAT THE HECK THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT and needs to say "I'm Sorry."
5. Rational debate here, PLEASE. I have no grudge against those who believe Bane would win if they debate intelligently and Rationally. If somebody from EITHER side starts throwing insults for no good reason, than those of us who would like to actually debate INTELLIGENTLY are going to send you Elizabeth the Cat for Christmas.
6. In all the confusion, we have managed to get off topic, so let's get back ON topic.

General, I thank you again and I hope you enjoy this thread.

I know Revan's story jackass, I'm a Revan fan myself so I know his story backwards and forwards, so don't give me any of your shit just because you like including non canon material. Him killing Starkiller is NOT canon, it's an extra mission. Him talking to the sand people is NOT canon, it's just an extra mission. Learn the difference, schmuck.

Sure, all the Dark Side decisions are non-canon, such as killing StarKiller. And yeah, some extra missions may not have been part of the story. But seeing Revan's impact on the galaxy and the general good of the Ebon Hawk and her crew, I see lots of quests actually done by Revan. I mean, they were doing everything so they can get to the Star Forge. They knew that it might be possible that doing so and so might result in finding the next Star Map.

Edit: DS, watch your mouth.

@ Tortoise Herder

Hey np!

DARTH SEXY!!!!!!

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS AND LISTIN UP!

You see that list that I made on the last page that is 5 posts from the bottom, you know, 1+1+1+1+1? THAT IS THE BARE MINIMUM TO COMPLETE THE STORY ON LS!!!!!! YOU DO NOT NEED TO TELL ME THAT YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO IT, YOU GOD DAMNED JACKASS!

APPARENTLY I NEED TO MAKE IT IN 180 POINT FONT SO YOU CAN TELL THAT I DO KNOW WHAT needed or not to complete the game. WHAT I AM SAYING IS THAT YOU ARE BEING AN IDIOTIC JACKASS BY REPEATING THAT ANYTHING THAT IS NOT NEEDED TO COMPLETE THE MAIN QUEST IS NON-CANON! HK-47 and Juhani, TWO MAJOR CHARACTERS are not needed to complete the main story. So by your definition, they are NOT canon. That would be utter crap because they are included in pretty much any main site that covers the issue that you LOOK.

At the VERY least you addressed two of my claims, if only to disregard them for no good reason. I STATED MYSELF that Bendak is up in the air, but it has NOT been deemed Non-Canon that I am aware of. The encounter with the Sand People is, as far as I know, canon. If you can give me a definitive "No, it is not true." on anything, and I check it and it is legit, I will rescind that and make note of it. But seeing as how even an intelligent debate is outside your limits, I guess that would be expecting a little much of you.

And even if those two WERE untrue, you have yet to address the other points IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM! You have yet to admit that most of the events I listed ARE Canon, you have yet to admit that I TOO know the bare minimum for continuation of the story, You have yet to admit that I know the story as well.

Keeping on insulting and cussing with no good reason is not debating. It is being a jackass. And if you wish to continue being a jackass, Darth Sexy, than get the hell off the site and let the rest of us debate rationally in peace.

You mentioned Starkiller which destroys your entire argument. If you wish to debate rationally, or debate at all(which you aren't capable of apparently), then get your facts straight and stop sounding like a jackass.

Darth Sexy, HOW does Bendak destroy my entire argument? Oh, that's right, even if it is false (on accident, as I am unaware of every move the guys who decide canon/noncanon do) there are plenty of other perfectly sane and reasonable arguments, and since you cannot do a rational debate, you will focus on the one that has a CHANCE of being noncanon and whine and ***** about it while ignoring the others because you cannot argue rationally.

In case you did not realise, I said Quote: "I said MYSELF that Bendak is up in the air, but he has not been declared noncanon THAT I AM AWARE OF!" unquote. I also invited you to show me SOURCES showing any of my claims that are false, and that after checking them, I would concede that and remove said point.

You have not shown me any such thing. Which in all probability mean that you do not have any which in all probability means that you have no idea if it is true or not but will continue to slander and mock me for no good reason because to do otherwise would to admit that you are wrong.

Just present a CREDIBLE SOURCE (and no, your pride is not a viable source) against me and I will concede the appropriate points. Unless of course you can't, because you have no credible sources. In which case DROP IT.

Tortoise Herder, chill down man.

Listen, any DARK SIDE DECISION taken by Revan is false seeing how Revan is light, and probably as a prodigal knight, only did Light things.

Darth Sexy, I thought you might want to listen to Tortoise. He does a point.

Indeed, I can curse, but I do not take pleasure in it, as it is crude and much less enjoyable than a rational debate. To my knowledge, Bendak has not been condemned noncanon, though if you know a source that says so, please post it so I can check it out and if it is not canon, than I will concede as much and remove it.

I would not have nearly as many problems with Darth Sexy save for the fact that he insults me and slanders me as inept, and simply denies anything I say no matter how disputable or indisputable it is. I can see that he could, with good reason, question my Bendak statement, though he denies EVERYTHING.

He declares my whole argument void simply because It is likely that the duel with Bandak was non-canon, while the rest of my argument as solid as any other argument.

My problem with Darth Sexy is that he is being a jackarse for no good reason and is harassing me no matter what arguments I make.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Ok, I only recently discovered this thread, and due to some Damn F*cking stupid arguments, I have been forced to act.


Firstoff, Sithari, you say that power is more important than knowledge, when in reality, with most people we see, they are interdependant.

It Was Napoleon Bonaparte, a man who was heralded as the greatest General of his day, that said "General-in-chief must be guided by their own experience, or their genius. Tactics, evolutions, the duties and knowledge of an engineer or artillery officer, may be learned in treatises, but the science of strategy is only to be acquired by experience, and by studying the campaigns of all the great captains.
Gustavus Adolphus, Turenne, and Frederick, as well as Alexander, Hannibal, and Caesar have all acted upon the same principles. These have been -- to keep their forces united; to leave no weak part unguarded; to seize with rapidity on important points."

He also said: "Peruse again and again the campaigns of Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Gustavus Adolphus, Turenne, Engene, and Frederick. Model yourself upon them. This is the only means of becoming a great captain, and of acquiring the secret of the art of war. Your own genius will be enlightened and improved by this study, and you will learn to reject all maxiums foreign to the principles of these great commanders."
He makes it a point to study those who came before him to learn their advantages, their skills, their weaknesses etc. And LEARN from them.

And they also study things that could be helpful, like a man going into a duel to the death with swords might study human anatomy, as it helps him land a decisive blow to either kill/mortally wound his opponent.

He also emphasises the need for Experience. Bane was a member of the Gloom Walkers, a unit that DID make some quite impressive feats in combat. However, even when we consider his defacto command of said unit, he was in command of a single infantry unit.

Revan, on the other hand, took control of a army that had been driven from dozens (AT LEAST) of planets, and was heavily demoralized, low in experience etc. and, like Pilsudski at the Battle of Warsaw in the 1920's, he ROUTED the enemy and eventually destroyed him. This while managing to groom his army discreetly for his eventual return as a Sith.

He also would have been able to have a larger base of knowledge not only on the Force techniques, but also on combat, on leadership etc.

These could prove to be a far more powerful factor than we may know.

But in order to reach that generalship, he had to be powerful enough to reach it. And He Was.

FACT: He killed Mandalore the Ultimate in fair combat face to face.

FACT: He killed The One (The Black Rakata Cheiftan) after fighting his way through his warriors, a man whose reputation was so fierece that in a tribal civilization that was dedicated to war, whose Cheiftan had to have been a skilled warrior, that Said Cheiftan abdicated peacefully at the mere CHALLENGE of The One to duel him for the Cheiftan's position.

FACT: He defeated dozens of Sith soldiers and acolytes while they were being powered by BOTH the Star Forge and Bastilla's Battle Meditation, with minimum aid.

FACT: Singlehandedly defeated first Bastila and than Malak alone. The latter of whom was regenerated completely at least once by captive Jedi.

FACT: Kreia, who had no doubt worked with many powerful Jedi, described him as "Looking at the Heart of the Force." This is not completely quantifiable, but you have to keep in mind that this was in a Jedi Order that was far better trained that the PT ones, and who had the knowledge of Lore, techniques etc that had passed into the realm of myth by the time of the PT.

FACT: He walked on the surface of Malachor V, a planet that corrupted Jedi FROM THE ORBITING BATTLE. A planet that shattered Kreia's resistence withing seconds of her stepping on the planet.

FACT: Malak described him as being far more powerful in the Light than he ever was in Darkness.

FACT: He defeated Calo Nord, a bounty hunter who learned his trade with a bounty on his head by TOYING with his hunters before ruthlessly finishing them off. And apparently there were dozens of those who perished trying to collect said bounty. A man who is said never let a target survive.

FACT: He defeated Darth Bandon, the man judged to be the strongest out of a Sith order of likely HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS and trained by Malak himself.

FACT: He won his way up to the bloody Swoop Campionship of MANAAN, THE CAPITAL OF SWOOP RACING AFTER THE LIQUIDATION OF TARIS!!!!

FACT: He killed Bendak Starkiller, a Mandalorian duelist who killed so many people in death matches THERE WAS A BOUNTY PUT OUT ON HIS HEAD!!!! And that was BEFORE he rediscovered force sensitivity.

FACT: He succeeded in doing what almost no other had done, being one of the VERY VERY few to gain the Tusken Raider's trust and admiration to the point that he learned their history. This in a species that was still regarded to be only animals THOUSANDS of years afterwards.

FACT: He killed Selven, a woman who killed off the Ulgos of Taris, despite all their guards, droids, and security measures.

FACT: Darth Bane, the other member of the deathmatch, judged Revan's holocron to be far superior to the ENTIRETY of the resources avalible for teaching the Brotherhood of Darkness COMBINED!!!!

FACT: Bane said that he would not dare to TRY some of the rituals Revan had done, as they were simply too dangerous.

FACT: He killed Sherruk, a Mandalorian who had killed many Jedi, alongside his entire gang, WHEN HE WAS STILL IN THE EARLY STAGES OF ReDISCOVERING THE FORCE!!!!

Ok than, we also know that Zephiel is crap on medicine, as he does not realize there is a point to us shooting the crap out of his stupid arguments about the "Dark Side calming his situation."

I am sorry, but if somebody has their adrenaline going on for too long a period or for too intense a period, it can rupture! Period.

And that is in a normal human being. If Bane has all the orbalisks pumping in this fight, speed is key, as if he is delayed to long, he will die. Hell, if he wins but the fight has gone on too long he will STILL die.

Thus, Bane is on the clock. Not Revan. If Revan can hold out for long enough, even if he does not land a killing blow, he will still win.


So the real question is if Bane can breach Revan's defense and kill or mortally wound him before he kills himself or before Revan learns his weakpoint and kills him.

The Dark Side cannot calm one down. It FUELS RAGE. That is what it does. It has been mentioned as such repeatedly in the series.

So it gets the Heart going even FASTER. WHICH MEANS BANE HAS EVEN LESS TIME!!!!

So, barring a miracle, I would give this to Revan.

Sith'ari, Zephiel, get an actual argument. It makes you look bad if you do not.

Lets play a game of "how many things are wrong with my bullshit argument?".

If you could play "how many things are wrong with my bullshit argument" which is not bullshit compared to what you have been spewing, than GET IT ON and get started. I am waiting. like I am waiting for those sources that declare that the Sand People history and Bendak are 100% complete and certifiable noncanon.

So far, the only things I might have misquoted were Bendak and Selven, though that does not mean that the former was not possible (barring, again a source) and the the latter was not likely.

Canon=confirmed source
What you stated=possibility yetr not confirmed nor part of the storyline, understand?

Well, at least we are talking more in a more civil manner, on both sides of the fence, which is a start. I may have overreached myself in some areas, ie Bendak Starkiller, but most of what I did list ie the Manaan Swoop Championship, Bane's assesment of Revan's holocron, Sherruk etc. are indeed canon or at the very least have not been condemned by any authorized source as otherwise. Some of them are up in the air with various chances of being considered canon/noncanon, but most are cemented as canon. That is the point I was trying to make.

Well, some of the things Tortoise has pointed out are probably and most likely canon, such as the Wookie Revolt. We can prove that by logical premises and stuff, but w/e.

Play nice, kids. Some of you are getting out of hand, especially Darth Sexy, in a few of his posts.

LOL Indian brotha, I find this funny

Ok than, you arn't the world's best debator ever.

The overdose IS still there, as long as we are dealing with humans here. Had Bane been say a Rodian, I MIGHT have been able to accept the idea that his body does not work the same way ours does, but he IS human. His body works the same way. I doubt it is "constantly" pumping its stuff into him, for Bane would have turned into a DS Anakin ala ROTS, somebody who cannot stand still or shut up. Fortunatly for Bane, at least against Anakin's case, he can honestly say that it is the adreneline kicking him all over.

And yes, I have played KOTOR II (finally somebody realizes that) and I have met our dear friend Mr. Sion. However, many people credit the DS as the ONLY thing holding his body together, and it is undoubtably a major role in it, but another large role is Sion's on bullish will to live and his raw hate. As for "sustenence" we have never actually seen somebody in either game actually eating/drinking, but that does not mean they actually do not eat or drink. Few games, in fact, show somebody eating or drinking on their own, but it is implied.

We have seen no evidence the Dark Side, or indeed the force in general, can allow somebody to wiave food and drink alltogether in the long run. In the short run, maybe. Maybe. But never in the long run.

And indeed, in this case, the source of Bane's greatest strength is boobytrapped so to speak. The DS is not a calming agent. It draws off the rage and the hatred of the individual and gives them power thataway. The problem is that such an event would case his heart to work even harder due to them. And he is already on the clock due to the adrenline that he gets from the time he starts the fight. The point I am trying to make is that Bane either has to kill Revan in a timely fashion (I will not say fast persee, as we don't know how strong his heart is and therefore we cannot say how long he will last) or face dieing as the heart beats so fast it begins to rupture itself.

As for Bendak, I was NEVER trying to say Bendak>Bane, or even Bendak=Bane. That would be STOOOPID on a massive scale only found in incidents like the "battle" of Karancebes. If Bane in any form pretty much went up against Bendak, Bendak's head and most of his body would be turned into a bloody, mucky organic mess.

What I am trying to do is to build up the body of evidence. Which is used in law to call the evidnece by one side. In other words, I am showing the accomplishments of Revan, such as defeating Bendak without the force, defeating the One, etc.

I am not saying that these guys could kill Bane. Some of them (Malak, Bastilla) may have a good chance, yes, but I doubt anybody has a better than 50% chance to beat Bane. But it does show what Revan is capable of, as he had less time, was cut off from his knowledge, was drastically outnumbered even with his allies, but at the same time managed to truimph over seemingly insurmountable odds. Bane can defeat several one on one, but in the context of a discreet campaign like this, with no contact with the majority of the Jedi, and a solo journey, I doubt it.

Ad for the rediculous swoop bike thing, It was a testiment: I have seen many disregard the racing aspects. They seem worthless in a fight. But again, so would studying human anatomy before a sword duel. But it helps. And the Swoop racing, given the fact that people who had been doing this for possibly as long as a decade could not defeat this very-firstimer, it shows both his force poweress and other skills, multitasking and hand-eye coordination, which undoubtably can prove a boon in a fight to the death.

And Also,Just being "optional" does not mean "noncanotical" as the good General pointed out. You also have not said diddily squat about the rest of my argument. Surely if it were that bad you would score further points and rout me from the field by making these other fallacies known? Maybe it is actually a good argument and you a cherrypicking areas that you can actually hope to attack me on and hope I forget the fact that you have not answered the others? Maybe you know that you cannot compete with a great deal of evidence, most of it indisputably canon, that would destroy your argument?

But don't worry, Zephiel. Even if you are cherry picking and have no knowledge about medicinal facts, you are still better than Darth Sexy. I will give credit were credit is due.

Even if none of it is due to your debating skills.

Oh yes, and ps, if you edited in the "Finest ****" quotation on after rereading your post, than you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. Again, You are still better than Darth Sexy.

Edit: Meh Whatever.

Zephiel is really good Master Tortoise.



Why thank you. Of course, General Kenobl may not be existant anymore, Korto Vos may replace him....

Im loving your new signature General.

Thanks Rampant!

I have a moron who can't understand the difference between canon and non canon critisizing me. Talk about irony.

No need to berate him DS. Most of his points are valid in terms of canon/noncanon, and only his Bendak argument is probably the only thing that is probably wrong.

DS, You insulted me for no good reason, you claimed I did not know the difference between what was necessary to finish the game and what was not, and you generally acted like a rat. You also made numbskull arguments (Like "Bendak invalidates you entire argument') to avoid a fair debate. So I have somebody who does not know the difference between a rational argument and spewing drivel yaking at me, claiming his invalidated Primary quests=canon everything else=Noncanon point. Talk about irony.

I am not spotlessly innocent in the argument previously, but you were the one who started the mudslinging.

If you are willing to admit that you went way out of bounds, than we can get back to the topic at hand.

Don't worry about DS Tortoise. He has been at war with several members of this forum. You can see the Post Wars in my Profile, entitled Darth Sexy vs. Entire Forum.

**** the police/forum

I haven't read a single convincing argument on here for why Revan edges Bane. All I've read is that he taught Bane a great deal ( through POD's blatant retconning of course, as if teachers haven't been pummeled by their students) and that he survived Malachor's dark side energies by embracing and utilizing the dark side, ignoring the fact that Kreia was broken because she was mentally unstable at the time.

The orbalisk armor plus Bane's substantial TK give him the edge in this one IMO.

Ok than, that argument made no sense whatsoever. Firstoff, yakking about retconning is not an argument, it is out of universe, and if anything it IMPROVED my respect for Bane and what he went through. So THAT is not valid.

And second the part about Malachor V, you claim that Kreia was only broken because she was emotionally unstable after Revan's fall. Firstly, I would love for you to prove that. And secondly, you are being willfully ignorant. Malachor V was so inherently corrupt that in the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars over it, IT CORRUPTED JEDI WHO WERE IN ORBIT OVER THE PLANET DURING THE BATTLE!!!!!!!

So, on-contrare, Kreia must have been VERY powerful to have lasted that long before breaking.

Revan managed to survive being devoured by the same things that broke Kreia and CORRUPTED JEDI (many of whom must have had some measure of respectable power) FROM ORBIT and not only survived, he took the power that assaulted him and HE OVERWHELMED IT. THAT takes a lot of willpower, given how many have been proven to have fallen at Malachor's seductive grasp.

He also managed to infiltrate the Sith Academy on Korriban in secret, conduct sabotage against the academy while keeping up the charade as not only a loyal, unquestioning student, but also as the MOST SUITABLE SITH, than he pretty much (with the help of his allies) gutted the Academy, killing the master, redeeming his apprentace (and several other Sith), killing the master's now-insane-master, and pretty much all the loyal Sith at the academy. All the while resisting the corrupting influence of Korriban itself.

That, my friend, is impressive.

Yes, some of what I wrote, in the hindsight, is likely inaccurate, and I have been the first to admit it. However, most of what I wrote IS true.

Such as the Manaan Championship, the fact that he Killed Mandalore the Ultimate (certainly no slouch in combat to be mandalore) in fair 1-1 combat, Killed the One, A warrior who was so feared the man who was cheif of his tribe at the time surrendered his title without a fight at the One's invitation to duel for the title, etc.

As for the TK, the one place I have heard that is the whole "Nudging the Moon" part. I, quite frankly, am undecided on the issue, as neither side has done much save yell and point fingers at each other. Though, for what it is worth, what will it take for him to do TK? If he can do it standing up it might be a helpful aid to him, but if he has to do a ritual or has to meditate, than it will merely screw him off of his initiative.

The Obelisks can be a help, as they block lightsabers, but, as I mentioned with my previous posts, it puts him on the clock, as the adreniline being pumped into him will kill him if the fight goes on too long. They also leave a vulnerable spot near his face, which would be a killing zone for Revan, if Revan can breach Bane's defense, which given his exsperience and skill, I think has a good chance of happening.

And even if Revan cannot recognize the Obelisks (something I find slightly hard to believe for somebody who was said to practically devour knowledge) it will not take him long (if he survives the initial shock) to figure out the idea of them being able to survive Lightsabers, and will direct his efforts towards hitting the head.

Bane is experienced, and he is no slouch, but I am ultimatly hedging on Revan.

Hold on a second, zephiel I thought you were a Revan fan, when did you step aside for Bane? And there's NO single argument for Bane being superior to Revan or even being on par. Congratulations to Bane, who learned a fraction of what Revan knew, but suddenly he's more powerful? Hardly. There is nothing to indicate that Bane's power is even on the level of Revan.

There is a lot of evidence to suggest that Bane was on Revan's level, Sexy.

Kopekz thought he might just be the sith'ari aka the ultimate sith and perfect being after only just one conversation with Bane, so he clearly sensed that the force within Bane was on the next level.

Githany believed his power was beyond the level of pretty much any jedi or sith master when he had only received a few months worth of training.

Kaan, the leader of the BoD was scared shitless of him before he had even met him; this was based purely on descriptions of his power.

When he was 18, he was able to instinctively choke his father to death, which greatly speaks for how prodigious he was, and how strong in the force he as.

He once lost his temper, and was able to instinctively project his fury on an entire room full of people; that speaks for truly how strong he was in the darkside.

He pretty much mastered force lightning after just 1 hour of having learnt the technique, and was even able to create a miniature storm. By BotS, after having grown much more powerful, he would likely be able to replicate this to much greater effect.

He was able to release a wave of energy that was able to collapse the entire 20 story Rakatan Temple, and the temple wasn't even hit by the entire attack (it wasn't hit by the portion that hit Kas'im).

He was able to choke Quordis to death like he was a child, and Quordis was one of the top sith in the BoD, the head of the academy in fact.

He was able to control the power of over 20 sith lords combined with his own to destroy an entire world.

He was able to pull a moon out of orbit, and pretty casually too given he did it while riding on top of a flying beast.

He knew every move and sequence of the saber staff perfectly (and those are the moves and sequences for all 7 forms, and not just the regular forms, but Kas'im's perfected forms), and thus would be able to wield one to the same effect as Kas'im.

Sirak, the top apprentice at the BoD Academy was damn powerful; he was able to move in blurs, had mastered multiple forms..and Bane was able to completely outclass him in saber combat; his shatterpoint ability was so great that he was able to sense weaknesses in Sirak's style seconds after the duel began, and constantly throughout the battle, but held back because he wanted to humiliate Sirak, and tire him down first, and towards the end, was able to tool him with one masterful manoeuvre; his movements were faster than the eyes of everyone present could see, so fast that it seemed like time had stopped for them.

He as good as defeated Kas'im in a duel; Kas'im was basically The master of the lightsaber; he mastered every from, every primary art of the saber, and then furthered and perfected each form and constantly refined his skills, and Kas'im was only able to defeat him when he used a style that was alien to Bane.

While he was choking Quordis to death, Quordis begged him to stop and let them fight with sabers so that he could die with honour, and Bane said that he would be able to just as easily defeat him with a saber, and Quordis agreed. This implies that Bane would have been able to defeat him in seconds with a saber, and Quordis was one of the top sith of a pretty impressive order.

Bane possesses the orbalisk armour, which constantly pumps dark side energies and adrenaline into his body, and strengthens his muscles and keeps them constantly flexed. It's also completely immune to the cutting power of even a lightsaber, and covers his entire body, except for his head (the only area where he can be physically affected), and a few joints where the gaps are too small for a lightsaber to pass through anyway.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hold on a second, zephiel I thought you were a Revan fan, when did you step aside for Bane? And there's NO single argument for Bane being superior to Revan or even being on par. Congratulations to Bane, who learned a fraction of what Revan knew, but suddenly he's more powerful? Hardly. There is nothing to indicate that Bane's power is even on the level of Revan.

Mr. Sexy, I am open to the fact that Revan is on par with Bane. But I don't see how he is above Bane at all. What proof is their that supports Revan as being greater than Bane? Simply that he "taught" him? Bane also obtained a sizable knowledge base by the end of his career.

Revan's displays in the force were significant, no doubt, but they were always on a level that equal, (if not inferior to, IMHO) Bane's.

You can keep your opinion. I am open to the fact that they are equals, because the bulk of this stuff you can't be hundred percent sure of.

Excuse me, at the very most equal to Bane's? His knowledge base was SUPERIOR to Bane's and he was extremely strong in the force during a time when not everyone was a pussy, as in Bane's time when Bane's the only noteworthy sith. Bane appears to be, at the very BEST, on par with Revan, and again that's not counting the fact that Revan had more of a knowledge base. Not to mention he became more powerful as a Jedi, so I don't see an argument that dictates Bane=Revan at all. All of this Bane crap is easily refutable, not to mention 99% of BOTS is N-canon now.

Bane's knowledge base was actually pretty high.

1. He pretty much knew the entire BoD archives inside out.

2. Through Githany, he was able to learn most of the knowledge from the then current masters.

3. He was able to gain most of and the most important knowledge gained in Darth Revan's holocron. This gave him techniques such as the thought bomb, force drain, force fireball, and a standard force storm, as well as a few jedi techniques such as resisting poison.

4. He was able to access a jedi holocron shortly before JVS.

5. He was able to gain whatever he found in Nadd's tomb, including his holocron, which by Bane's own admission, was the greatest source of knowledge he had so far come across. His power grew to incredible levels at this point, to the point where he had the 'power to play with gravity and orbits like a child might play with toys (something like that).'

And BotS in perfectly canon Sexy.

And Bane's order was exceptional. So exceptional that a young Durge wasn't even noteworthy, he was a minion for the BoD (the same Durge that was on the level of the PT elites). And really, with Dark lords such as Kas'im (The Master of the Lightsaber), Seviss Vaa (who was so adept at sith alchemy that he was able to create a Giant Behemoth that could fire giant energy blasts out of its forehead), Kaox Krul (a legendary Dark Lord that was a beast in combat; he killed over 100 jedi in his lifetime), it can be assumed that the BoD was pretty damn incredible.

And again Sexy, knowledge isn't all there is to power; you're ignoring factors such as how prodigious Bane was in the force and with a lightsaber, and how strong he was in the darkside. Now Revan most likely did have a larger knowledge base, I'll accept that, but considering how large Bane's is, would more knowledge even make much more of a difference to his power?

Originally posted by allfg
Bane's knowledge base was actually pretty high.


What, pray tell, was in the archives? Are you talking about Korriban, the same planet that was cleaned out of all its useful treasures concerning the ancient sith?


And what knowledge was this, and how would you quanitfy this knowledge when comparing eras, because Bane's era isn't exactly what you call impressive.


You don't KNOW how much knowledge Revan decided to put into the holocron, but chances are he wouldn't put EVERYTHING he knew in there. And not to mention Revan knew everything Bane knew, at the very LEAST.


What's JVS? And where was this? And so?


Oh god, no it's NOT. It was retconned and certain events contradict POD therefore they are NOT canon. Nadd did NOT have a holcron, and Bane did NOT go to DXUN because he found REVANS holocron on LEHON and admitted that THAT was the best knowledge he's ever had and THATS where he got the rule of two, so you can cancel the entire DXUN trip because it didn't happen, sorry.


Bane's order was exceptional? Who are you trying to kid? Durge was on the level of the PT Elite? LOL. Bane was the only Dark Lord worthy of any recognition during his time. Well him and Kas'im. Nothing impressive about an order which contains tens of thousands of sith.


More knowledge=more power in most cases. You don't see someone with less knowledge defeat someone with more, at least not in the SW universe. And when I say more knowledge I do include the quality of knowledge as well. Again, there is nothing to imply that Bane was Revan's equal, much less his superior.

I'm talking about the archives themselves, not the tombs or storehouses of Korriban. And there was clearly quite a lot in the archives; information on Revan and the Star Forge, the philosophy, wisdom and ideology of the Ancients, details regarding the prophecy of the sith'ari... these were all contained in the archives just to name a few, and really, clearly much more, considering there was an entire room full of these scrolls detailing sith history, teachings and lore, and Bane seemed to hold them in pretty high regard too, saying that they supplemented and provided context to the lessons gained from the masters, and the knowledge contained within was stated to be in the same league of an entire holocron too, so that's saying something.



Standard powers such as force jump, force speed, TK, force choke, lightning etc. Hardly comparable to Bane's other sources of knowledge of course, and I never said it was, I was just listing as many relevant points as I could.



Not necessarily, how can we be certain that Revan knew all the stuff in Freedon Nadd's holocron for instance? But really, he would have likely put the very best of his knowledge inside at the very least, and probably almost all of his knowledge, considering some of the stuff Bane learnt was as diverse as resisting poisons etc..



The comic, Jedi versus Sith..
And this was in the comic All for you.
And so you need to stop addressing all of my points separately, and see them for what they are; a bunch of points that amount to something much more in the bigger picture.



Really Sexy, you clearly have no clue how canon works. By your logic, the entire RotS novelisation shouldn't be canon because of a few contradictions. A few contradictions doesn't retcon the entire story, only said contradictions. So the idea that Bane thought up with the Rule of Two from Nadd's holocron has been retconned, sure, but not the existence of the holocron itself, or that Bane came across it. And you do realise that aspects of BotS have been referenced in other sources, right?



By Obsession, Durge was pretty much on Anakin and Obi-Wan's level, so yes, he was in the same league as the elites. And your second point is false, I just mentioned quite a few who were clearly pretty exceptional, it's not my fault you're ignoring them.



There is a lot of evidence to suggest that Bane was on Revan's level, Sexy.

Kopekz thought he might just be the sith'ari aka the ultimate sith and perfect being after only just one conversation with Bane, so he clearly sensed that the force within Bane was on the next level.

Githany believed his power was beyond the level of pretty much any jedi or sith master when he had only received a few months worth of training.

Kaan, the leader of the BoD was scared shitless of him before he had even met him; this was based purely on descriptions of his power.

When he was 18, he was able to instinctively choke his father to death, which greatly speaks for how prodigious he was, and how strong in the force he as.

He once lost his temper, and was able to instinctively project his fury on an entire room full of people; that speaks for truly how strong he was in the darkside.

He pretty much mastered force lightning after just 1 hour of having learnt the technique, and was even able to create a miniature storm. By BotS, after having grown much more powerful, he would likely be able to replicate this to much greater effect.

He was able to release a wave of energy that was able to collapse the entire 20 story Rakatan Temple, and the temple wasn't even hit by the entire attack (it wasn't hit by the portion that hit Kas'im).

He was able to choke Quordis to death like he was a child, and Quordis was one of the top sith in the BoD, the head of the academy in fact.

He was able to control the power of over 20 sith lords combined with his own to destroy an entire world.

He was able to pull a moon out of orbit, and pretty casually too given he did it while riding on top of a flying beast.

He knew every move and sequence of the saber staff perfectly (and those are the moves and sequences for all 7 forms, and not just the regular forms, but Kas'im's perfected forms), and thus would be able to wield one to the same effect as Kas'im.

Sirak, the top apprentice at the BoD Academy was damn powerful; he was able to move in blurs, had mastered multiple forms..and Bane was able to completely outclass him in saber combat; his shatterpoint ability was so great that he was able to sense weaknesses in Sirak's style seconds after the duel began, and constantly throughout the battle, but held back because he wanted to humiliate Sirak, and tire him down first, and towards the end, was able to tool him with one masterful manoeuvre; his movements were faster than the eyes of everyone present could see, so fast that it seemed like time had stopped for them.

He as good as defeated Kas'im in a duel; Kas'im was basically The master of the lightsaber; he mastered every from, every primary art of the saber, and then furthered and perfected each form and constantly refined his skills, and Kas'im was only able to defeat him when he used a style that was alien to Bane.

While he was choking Quordis to death, Quordis begged him to stop and let them fight with sabers so that he could die with honour, and Bane said that he would be able to just as easily defeat him with a saber, and Quordis agreed. This implies that Bane would have been able to defeat him in seconds with a saber, and Quordis was one of the top sith of a pretty impressive order.

Bane possesses the orbalisk armour, which constantly pumps dark side energies and adrenaline into his body, and strengthens his muscles and keeps them constantly flexed. It's also completely immune to the cutting power of even a lightsaber, and covers his entire body, except for his head (the only area where he can be physically affected), and a few joints where the gaps are too small for a lightsaber to pass through anyway.

Originally posted by allfg

The archives were plundered as well as the tombs, thanks to Revan turning to the light side. Now during REVANS time, THATS when all the knowledge of the ancients was. If that was the case here, you would have an argument. But since everything has been plundered, you can render the entire knowledge on korriban aside from Revan's books, useless. I'm not denying there was SOME stuff, but the academy has been destroyed and rebuilt more than once, so it's unlikely the knowledge there is anywhere near the level of knowledge that was present during Revan's time.




Uh what? That's ridiculous beyond belief. There WAS no Nadd Holocron because it contradicts the retconned POD 100%. No holocron, no DXUN, no moon orbit, ok? You're starting to sound like Nebaris with this nonsense.




Your points become irrelevant once you start listening non canon things.




Ok, you are DEFINITELY Nebaris as I've figured. You made the same argument on the other forum and got trounced. Since you're going to get banned anyways, I'll explain it to you here.
1. Nadd's holocron didn't exist because it stated Bane learned all of his knowledge from there, and including the rule of two. Since it was retconned by POD, then there is no Nadd holocron, which would mean he didn't go to Dxun to get Nadd's holocron, which would mean he didn't pull any bullshit moon out of orbit. Understand? There is NO canon source anymore, that states Nadd even had a holocron, because the whole idea was whiped with the retcon of POD.




Like what Nebaris?


Omg Kopecz thought omg omg omg. That must mean something? Oh wait, it doesn't. Bane wasn't a perfect being, and he DID get killed by the Jedi. But he DID fulfill the sith'ari prophecy so whatever.


And there was any noteworthy masters during his era with the exception of Kas'im, and maybe Kaan? Hmm.


Kaan was also a tool who had manipulation skills against weak wills. What a great example.


So what, Anakin won a Pod race at 10 by using the force without knowing how to use the force, what is your point?


Not exactly


What is your point? Exar Kun became the most powerful being of his time after 1 year of training in the dark side. That seems a LOT more "prodigious" than Bane. Try again.


Yes, it was hit by the entire attack. What an incredible feat. I guess you fail to realize that the temple was more than likely crumbling after what, 30,000 years of being there? In any sense whether that is relevant or not, Bane's feat doesn't put him above anybody.
He was able to choke Quordis to death like he was a child, and Quordis was one of the top sith in the BoD, the head of the academy in fact.


So, it's a ritual Revan taught him, how does that make him uber?


Listen Nebaris, you're very pathetic to keep coming back after getting banned, and throwing the same argument that gets destroyed time and time again. Get over it.


No. He knows KASIMS moves, and he STILL lost to him. Not to mention Kas'im didn't imploy all 7 lightsaber forms in his fight against Bane. I fail to see how he could use Makashi, for instance, with his double blade, considering it wasn't Kun's blade and the hilt was twice as long.


Are you trying to copy your exact argument from a month ago Nebaris? This is how sad you are? Lets see, he lost to Kas'im even knowing all of his moves. Bane NEVER mastered all the forms, hell we don't even know if he mastered one.



And? There are gaps and there are other ways to win a fight, Nebaris. You lose once again.

I appreciate all the counter arguments for Bane feats but BOTS has not been scrapped from continuity if anything it still could fit into continuity after the events of POD. Remember it was created with no consideration to POD so it still stands. Unless there's a source that states that BOTS which is as viable a source (and earlier) of Bane's fictional info as POD is no longer canon, your argument falls pretty short.

According to BOTS the orbalisks are from Nadd's tomb on Dxun and Bane does go to Dxun after Ruusan and thats canon. So this whole Bane didn't nudge the moon argument is baseless and quite simply wrong.

Originally posted by Allankles
I appreciate all the counter arguments for Bane feats but BOTS has not been scrapped from continuity if anything it still could fit into continuity after the events of POD. Remember it was created with no consideration to POD so it still stands. Unless there's a source that states that BOTS which is as viable a source (and earlier) of Bane's fictional info as POD is no longer canon, your argument falls pretty short.
I guess you completely forgot that BOTS contradicts POD in a lot of ways, so excuse me if I say that this "doesn't stand". There doesn't need to be a source that deems BOTS n- canon, but BOTS was retconned by POD, so most of it has been overwritten, therefore non canon.


No you see, you can't sit there and say which parts are canon and which aren't, because the moon crap has not been confirmed by a second source, and since POD overwrites BOTS, it's n-canon until somebody confirms it. At least the orbalisks were confirmed by Legacy, so I conceded that point.

What are talking about? The dark side source book puts Bane's trek to Onderon in BOTS after Ruusan which as you know is where POD ends.

There is no evidence to the contrary, POD retconned Bane's education in the dark side such that in BOTS he finds his first holocron in Onderon after Ruusan, POD has him find his first ancient holocron on Lehon before Ruusan. So, BOTS still fits comfortbaly in continuity as it happens after the battle of Ruusan.

Originally posted by Allankles
What are talking about? The dark side source book puts Bane's trek to Onderon in BOTS after Ruusan which as you know is where POD ends.

Oh really, what does it say then?



It doesn't work that way. You can't say "Oh there's no evidence to disprove this", that's not how a debate works. For the last time, the Nadd Holocron crap=non canon because it was completely overwritten by POD. It does NOT fit in comfortably. The ONLY canon part would be the orbalisks which were confirmed by Legacy, which is total shit btw and destroys Lucas' idea.

Fact is Bane found two ancient holocrons; one in the temple of the ancients on Lehon before the battle of Ruusan and one after the battle of Ruusan on Onderon.

Originally posted by Allankles
Fact is Bane found two ancient holocrons; one in the temple of the ancients on Lehon before the battle of Ruusan and one after the battle of Ruusan on Onderon.

Dear lord that's NOT a fact, and where's your DSSB quote anyways? There IS no Nadd Holocron because it was overwritten. Quit your fanboyism and start arguing logically. There is NO NADD HOLOCRON. Get that through your thick skull.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh really, what does it say then?



It doesn't work that way. You can't say "Oh there's no evidence to disprove this", that's not how a debate works. For the last time, the Nadd Holocron crap=non canon because it was completely overwritten by POD. It does NOT fit in comfortably. The ONLY canon part would be the orbalisks which were confirmed by Legacy, which is total shit btw and destroys Lucas' idea.

There isn't any evidence to disprove that for the simple fact that the events of Onderon in the BOTS happen after the events of Lehon in POD. Secondly Lucas idea was to have Bane single handedly design the rule of two, yet you have the POD author trying to throw some credit for the creation rule of two and the 'thought bomb' on his Kotor 1 character Revan. So who's destroying what?

Originally posted by Allankles
There isn't any evidence to disprove that for the simple fact that the events of Onderon in the BOTS happen after the events of Lehon in POD. Secondly Lucas idea was to have Bane single handedly design the rule of two, yet you have the POD author trying to throw some credit for the creation rule of two and the 'thought bomb' on his Kotor 1 character Revan. So who's destroying what?

Agreed - it did piss me off that Karpshyn (idiot that he is) tried to pass off Bane's own accomplishments to Revan. It was one of the major reasons I held off reading PoD.

But, as it is now, Bane's knowledge is definately not exceeding Revan's own - and the hype about Bane's power is nothing compared to that about Revan's.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Dear lord that's NOT a fact, and where's your DSSB quote anyways? There IS no Nadd Holocron because it was overwritten. Quit your fanboyism and start arguing logically. There is NO NADD HOLOCRON. Get that through your thick skull.

How does a Nadd holocron get overwritten when Bane finds it after POD? And I'm no Bane fan boy, just setting the record straight.

Originally posted by Allankles
How does a Nadd holocron get overwritten when Bane finds it after POD? And I'm no Bane fan boy, just setting the record straight.

Because it states Bane found Nadd's holocron and it taught him everything and surpassed the teachings of the academy on Korriban and taught him the rule of two. How incredible that Revan's holocron did the EXACT SAME THING. Therefore, it's a retcon.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Because it states Bane found Nadd's holocron and it taught him everything and surpassed the teachings of the academy on Korriban and taught him the rule of two. How incredible that Revan's holocron did the EXACT SAME THING. Therefore, it's a retcon.

But the two events are seperated chronologically making POD's retcon null and void (as regards BOTS) and simulataneously lend less weight on the effects of Revan's holocron outside the events of Ruusan. Nadd's holocron had nothing to do with Ruusan; in the the same way Revan's holocron had nothing to do with the Orbalisks or the events of BOTS after POD.

Originally posted by Allankles
But the two events are seperated chronologically making POD's retcon null and void (as regards BOTS) and simulataneously lend less weight on the effects of Revan's holocron outside the events of Ruusan. Nadd's holocron had nothing to do with Ruusan; in the the same way Revan's holocron had nothing to do with the Orbalisks or the events of BOTS after POD.

They are not separated, jesus christ. Revan's holocron>Nadd's.

Is that even an argument?

Fact: Bane finds Revan's holocron before the battle of Ruusan

Fact: Bane finds Nadd's holocron after the battle of Ruusan.

The fact that they are chronologically seperated and the fact that the events of BOTS have been confirmed as EU canon by the evidence of Bane's orbalisk armor in Legacy, means that they are indeed unrelated parts of Bane's legacy.

You're acting as if POD encompasses BOTS - which it doesn't. Or that Bane's knowledge can't stretch beyond Revan's little holocron on Lehon when we knew going into POD that Bane would find Nadd's holocron after POD.

Originally posted by Allankles
Is that even an argument?

Fact: Bane finds Revan's holocron before the battle of Ruusan

Fact: Bane finds Nadd's holocron after the battle of Ruusan.
No, fiction. Are you hard headed? How can Revan find two holocrons that teach him the exact same thing and give him the exact same knowledge? That's right, retcon.



And again, since his Orbalisk has been the ONLY thing that was confirmed by more than 1 source, and since everything ELSE has been retconned, there is NO argument.

Again Sexy, the only retcon is that The Rule of Two was found in Nadd's holocron; that's it. The existence of the holocron is canon. Bane pulling a moon out of orbit is canon. You are not canon. Canon > your mum.

Originally posted by allfg
Again Sexy, the only retcon is that The Rule of Two was found in Nadd's holocron; that's it. The existence of the holocron is canon. Bane pulling a moon out of orbit is canon. You are not canon. Canon > your mum.

THe existence of the holocron is NOT canon because it contradicts the rule of two. Pulling a moon is NOT canon just because you say so Noobaris sock. Guess what, facts>your opinions.

The only retcon was the rule of two all other knowledge derived from Nadd's holocron outside of the Orbalisk armor was not specified in BOTS, so how the hell do we know that Bane uncovered the same info from the two holocrons?

An empty off-handed statement about how in both cases he had more knowledge than his peers as a result? Well duh... that's the point of the holocrons: greater knowledge.

Secondly, you seem to want to irrationally dismiss the fact that POD was written to encompass a different period in Bane's life as compared to BOTS. Nadd's holocron is canon unless you want to tell us that Nadd's holocron is an exact copy of the Lehon holocron.

Originally posted by Allankles
The only retcon was the rule of two all other knowledge derived from Nadd's holocron outside of the Orbalisk armor was not specified in BOTS, so how the hell do we know that Bane uncovered the same info from the two holocrons?
Apparently YOU don't understand. That retcon simply means there IS no Nadd holocron unless you have a second source to back it up, which is REQUIRED when something is being retconned. As I've stated before, the ONLY canon fact of BOTS is his orbalisks, that is ALL. Your assumption that Bane obtained the SAME EXACT info from both holocrons is ludicrous.



It's NOT canon, and since there is no second source that confirms it after it's been retconned, then all you have is Revan's holocron.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Apparently YOU don't understand. That retcon simply means there IS no Nadd holocron unless you have a second source to back it up, which is REQUIRED when something is being retconned. As I've stated before, the ONLY canon fact of BOTS is his orbalisks, that is ALL. Your assumption that Bane obtained the SAME EXACT info from both holocrons is ludicrous.



It's NOT canon, and since there is no second source that confirms it after it's been retconned, then all you have is Revan's holocron.

There's no need for a second source when the effect and relevance of each individual holocron on their respective stories is not the same. Your adamant refusal has no bearing on the fact that the events of these two stories happen at different times within the continuity.

Secondly, I never said that the holocrons contained the same exact knowledge, I said that we can't make assumptions on the content of Nadd's holocron because BOTS gave no specifics and that your argument would only stand if both holocrons shared the same knowledge (therefore giving priority to POD's holocron).

Again (hopefully the last time I say this), POD's retconning didn't affect BOTS account on Nadd's holocron.

Good god, yes it DOES. Just because YOU don't want to admit it doesn't it make it less true.

Do you have proof of BOTS being retconned? BOTS makes no mention that the knowledge within Revan's holocron was identical to what was within Nadd's, so unless a continuity official said that it was retconned and rendered invalid, we can't make assumptions that it was.

Furthermore, I'd like to point out that BOTS makes no mention that Bane got any ideas of "the rule of two" from Nadd's holocron.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Do you have proof of BOTS being retconned? BOTS makes no mention that the knowledge within Revan's holocron was identical to what was within Nadd's, so unless a continuity official said that it was retconned and rendered invalid, we can't make assumptions that it was.
Really? Because it mentions him coming out with the knowledge of the rule of two. And you also have a problem with canon. Since some of the events HAVE been retconned, then there has to be an official to confirm BOTS, not POD. Since the orbalisks were confirmed by a second source, they are the ONLY thing that is canon at this point.


Yes, it gave him the knowledge of the direction the sith were supposed to go, and so on and so on. So either the holocrons were identical, or more obviously, BOTS was retconned.

Mind you sexy, if you have a source indicating BOTS is rendered invalid, I will accept. I am no Bane fanboy, but I feel he is underrated.

To put it succintly, it never stated that Bane invented the rule of two. It leaves the possibility that Revan had a part to play in it as well. Moreover, it gives absolutely zero mention of Nadd inspiring him to come up with rule either. PoD fits perfectly with continuity, well at least with respect to BOTS.



Nothing has been retconned. Could you reiterate what you think has been retconned, because simply put, I am not seeing it.



The holocron was stated to be an "amazing library of darkness" It was never stated to possess the information that was contained within Revan's holocron. From what basis are you making this assumption?

The point I would like to make is, given all this, why would a retcon be needed at all? If there is a retcon, who done it?

Link me to BOTS and I'll show you.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?books=560

There you go. Point to me where it says Nadd influenced Bane on creating the rule of two. Moreover, state where it says Bane invented it by himself. It says Bane established it, but that is truth.

In order to be convinced, I need the above to be explicitly stated.

"Now that he alone remained, now that he was the seed that would cause the new tree of evil to flourish, he decided that no longer would the Sith be composed of great armies attempting to overwhelm civilization through brute force."
"From now on, the Sith would depend on secrecy, working behind the scenes to eat away at the foundation of the Republic's government. With the Sith nearly extinct, weakened to the point of ineffectuality, Bane decided that the study of dark lore must go underground. He would hide and work in the shadows of society, using all he had learned from the holocron. "
"For now, he would also establish an unbreakable new rule to prevent the internecine feuds and civil wars that had stolen victory from the Sith grasp. There must be only two Sith at any one time: a master and apprentice. The two of them would learn the dark side intimately, and they would become brilliant puppeteers to manipulate the fools in the Republic. "

All of that is an implication that he learned this from Nadd's holocron. Not to mention Nadd's tomb was pillaged 3,000 years earlier by Sion's forces, and the exiles.

And no, I don't really care what you need in order for you to be convinced. That's like saying "In order for me to be convinced I need for you to show me where it says Bane is more powerful than Revan". Sounds just as ridiculous, read the passage and use logiacl deduction.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
"Now that he alone remained, now that he was the seed that would cause the new tree of evil to flourish, he decided that no longer would the Sith be composed of great armies attempting to overwhelm civilization through brute force."
"From now on, the Sith would depend on secrecy, working behind the scenes to eat away at the foundation of the Republic's government. With the Sith nearly extinct, weakened to the point of ineffectuality, Bane decided that the study of dark lore must go underground. He would hide and work in the shadows of society, using all he had learned from the holocron. "
"For now, he would also establish an unbreakable new rule to prevent the internecine feuds and civil wars that had stolen victory from the Sith grasp. There must be only two Sith at any one time: a master and apprentice. The two of them would learn the dark side intimately, and they would become brilliant puppeteers to manipulate the fools in the Republic. "

All of that is an implication that he learned this from Nadd's holocron.

It never stated that Bane got the rule of two from Nadd. It explains what he was thinking before he decided to leave Dxun, but that in no way implies that he learned it from Nadd.

So really, nothing explicitly contadicts PoD. As far as I know, continuity officials are content to leave it as canon. There is no basis to establish something as big as a retcon.

Originally posted by zephiel7
It never stated that Bane got the rule of two from Nadd. It explains what he was thinking before he decided to leave Dxun, but that in no way implies that he learned it from Nadd.

So really, nothing explicitly contadicts PoD. As far as I know, continuity officials are content to leave it as canon.


What do you mean explicitly? You want something to come out and say it for you to be satisfied? I just gave you a logical deduction. After he learned from the supposed holocron, he decided the path the sith should take. However, he did that already in Revan's holocron so unless both holocrons are the same, that part of BOTS was retconned, and again not to mention Nadd's tomb was pillaged and pilfered 3000 years earlier.