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Revenge of the Sith versions of all characters.


Battle 1: Jedi Master Yoda vs. Kyp Durron
A. Lightsaber duel
B. Force duelBa

Battle 2: Darth Sidious/Palpatine vs. Jacen Solo
A. Lightsaber duel
B. Force duel

Battle 3: Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku vs. Jaina Solo
A. Lightsaber duel
B. Force duel

Battle 4: Anakin Skywalker vs. Anakin Solo & Tahiri Veila
A. Lightsaber duel
B. Force duel

Battle 5: Mace Windu vs. Coron Horn
A. Lightsaber duel
B. Force duel

Battle 6: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Ganner Rhysode
A. Lightsaber duel
B. Force duel

All PT members who makes it passed this battle-
vs. NJO Luke Skywalker
A. Lightsaber duel
B. Force duel

Yoda most likely takes one
Jacen can probably take Sidious.
Dooku takes three.
Mace pawns Corran
ganner pawns obi wan

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
ganner pawns obi wan

Unless Ganner reaches the stage he acquired during the fight at the entrance to the World Brain, he gets killed. And I'm not aware that achieving a state of oneness with the Force is an ability you turn on and off like a light switch.

1.
(a) Kyp's a pretty average saber duelist, Yoda wins.
(b) Kyp has displayed much greater strength with the force, he wins.

2.
(a) From what I've heard, Jacen's a badman with a saber, like just behind Luke, so he should take it.
(b) With the force, Jacen's done what? Sidious wins.

3.
(a)Don't know much about Jaina, but I'm pretty sure she's not on Dooku's level with a saber, so Dooku takes this.

(b) Don't know much about Jaina, but I'm pretty sure she's not on Dooku's level with the force, so Dooku takes this.

4.
(a) Anakin Solo died when he was still a youngling, didn't he? And Tahiri sucks from what I've heard, so Anakin should be able to take both of them.
(b) Anakin should be able to take both of them.

5.
(a) Mace Windu is one of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the entire SW mythology, Corran Horn is on the level of someone like Obi-Wan, from what I've heard. Mace takes it.
(b) Mace pwns him, Corran Horn couldn't even use TK.

6.
(a) Ganner's nothing special, he loses, Obi-Wan's basically the master of Soresu.
(b) Ganner's nothing special, he loses, at least Obi-Wan has displayed something (slamming Grievous back by like 50 feat.

7.
(a) Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Mace Windu and Obi-Wan vs. Luke = Luke getting overwhelmed.

(9) Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan and Palpatine vs. Luke = Luke getting overwhelmed.

iv read the unifying force, jacen wasnt that great with the lightsaber and he doesnt use the traditional forms, Pt duelers > njo duelers

LOTF Jacen probably is. If Kyle and Mara had been put in this, the NJO would win most likely

Originally posted by Sexyback
1.
(a) Kyp's a pretty average saber duelist, Yoda wins.
(b) Kyp has displayed much greater strength with the force, he wins.


Just because Yoda doesn't display his powers doesn't mean he isn't good. He's not a showy type of person so he doesn't blow-up planets or something like that, but every opponent he faced in the PT he has bested in knowledge of the Force. The only one that even got a hit on him was Sidious and that was a surprise attack right in the beginning. Furthermore he was like 900 years old. Imagine him in his physical prime.

Aging wouldn't make him weaker in the force or anything, and it's the fact that he's been in situations where an incredible showing of the force would have been necessary/beneficial, yet he hasn't displayed it.

Kyle did not do anything in the NJO....

Originally posted by Kadesh
iv read the unifying force, jacen wasnt that great with the lightsaber

Right.

Despite him eliminating a squad of Yuuzhan Vong warriors, killing the voxyn queen (in the middle of the battle, he killed a shaper, and before a YZ warrior), killing four Slayers in battle, and then going on to take down Onimi afterwards. If you've even read TUF, which I doubt, you'd know Jacen is actually powerful as all hell (see: duel against Onimi). In that stage, he literally became one of the most powerful.

And, although I haven't read Betrayal, Gideon says this:

Originally posted by Gideon
In Betrayal, Jacen was able to contend in a lightsaber duel with a Force phantom that was described as "would be a fair match for Luke."

Out of curiosity, what was he like with the force?

Sexyback's mad because Yoda>His beloved Bane. Don't pay him much mind

Don't be ridiculous Lightsnake, Yoda is leagues below Bane, the only times he actually does stuff that's impressive (btw, still nowhere near as impressive as what Bane did) is in the CW cartoon...

Originally posted by Sexyback
Don't be ridiculous Lightsnake, Yoda is leagues below Bane, the only times he actually does stuff that's impressive (btw, still nowhere near as impressive as what Bane did) is in the CW cartoon...
Yoda is leagues below Bane?

Yoda is among the most powerful Jedi in entire Star Wars Saga. Buddy!

Originally posted by Sexyback
Out of curiosity, what was he like with the force?

Who? Kyle or Jacen?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yoda is leagues below Bane?

Yoda is among the most powerful Jedi in entire Star Wars Saga. Buddy!

Yeah, OK!

And Advent, I was wondering about Jacen because people seem to act like he's in the top 5 most powerful with the force, and I just don't get it, he doesn't seem to have done anything.

I see more lies from sexyback and it's amazing

Do you care to point them out?

Yoda and Bane are not the topic, I will close it if we drag that argument into this one. Stay on topic.

Anyways, good to see that not everyone's being pwnd by the NJO.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Kyle did not do anything in the NJO....

He was the Battlemaster, making him the greatest duelist in the order after Luke

A Jedi Grand Master vs. a battlemaster I might have to go with the grand Master just a thoughtwink1

The rank of "Grandmaster" could be interpreted as merely the "leading" rank in the Order; obviously a battlemaster would have to be ridiculously skilled in combat (especially when compared to his peers). Yoda would very likely win by his much superior strength and skill with the Force, but I think Kyle could easily contend with him in a saber match.

Originally posted by Gideon
The rank of "Grandmaster" could be interpreted as merely the "leading" rank in the Order; obviously a battlemaster would have to be ridiculously skilled in combat (especially when compared to his peers). Yoda would very likely win by his much superior strength and skill with the Force, but I think Kyle could easily contend with him in a saber match.

So now your sayin' Luke a Grand master would be beaten in Saber combat by Kyle plz

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
So now your sayin' Luke a Grand master would be beaten in Saber combat by Kyle plz

:erm:

No... in fact, I'm curious as to why you even think that.

Because you implied Kyle could beat another Grand Master in Lightsaber combat

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
Because you implied Kyle could beat another Grand Master in Lightsaber combat

Okay, well first, I didn't. Being able to "easily contend with someone" doesn't mean you can beat them.

Secondly, Yoda =/= Luke. Luke is a good ways more powerful than Yoda. Kyle would give Yoda more trouble than he would Luke.

true but ahh well forget it lets Just agree Yoda would win his respective battle Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Jacen can probably take Sidious.


No No No I say sids is Jacen that strong in your eyes

EDIT

Jacen's turning into the "new" Luke. If his strength in the book is what we're going by, I doubt he could take any version of Sidious. But if we go by the narrative itself, he probably could.

Well I say Sids

Battle 1: Jedi Master Yoda vs. Kyp Durron

A. Lightsaber duel - Yoda takes this. Kyp's a very unbalanced Jedi with very little emphasis on saber skills. Yoda takes this will some difficulty, but not much.

B. Force duel - Kyp has the win here. With the exception of Luke he's the strongest Jedi ever when it comes to Force Powers. For example, in Star by Star Kyp was able to shove a freighter with the Force with very little effort. He was also able to control a black hole and showed less signs of drain afterwards than even Luke did. Yoda's just not up to Kyp's level here.

C. Overall (added by me to decide who fights in round 7) - I'd give this to Kyp. He's not good enough to defeat Yoda with his saber, but he'd be plenty able to hold Yoda off and defeat him with Force Powers.

Battle 2: Darth Sidious/Palpatine vs. Jacen Solo

A. Lightsaber duel - Jacen has been stated to be more powerful than Kyp Durron in one of the more recent books. Jacen was able to fight four Slayers at the same time which puts him extremely high in saber skills; high enough, I think, to defeat Sidious.

B. Force duel - Sidious has it here. Jacen has a large knowledge of exotic Force Powers but has shown little in the way of pure power. Sidious takes him down.

C. Overall - I'm leaning towards Jacen here. He's plenty skilled to take Sidious in a saber fight but would lose in a pure Force Battle. I think that his Force Powers are enough to hold off Sidious' attacks and he should be able to kill Sidious with his saber.

Battle 3: Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku vs. Jaina Solo

A. Lightsaber duel - Dooku wins. Jaina really not that impressive with her saber. She spends way to much time as a pilot and not enough time training.
B. Force duel - Same as the saber battle. Jaina isn't that powerful here.

C. Overall - Dooku for sure. I honestly don't know why she was labled the Sword of the Jedi. She's really not to great of a fighter.

Battle 4: Anakin Skywalker vs. Anakin Solo & Tahiri Veila

A. Lightsaber duel - This is hard to decided. Anakin Solo is very capable and I wouldn't be surprised if he won. However, Tahiri isn't up to par and Solo might end up dying trying to protect her. I'd give this to Skywalker.

B. Force duel - To close to call. Solo is very capable and with Tahiri's help could convievably win, but I'm not sure.

C. Overall - This goes to Skywalker, but just barely. Solo gets killed because he spends to much time looking out for Tahiri.

Battle 5: Mace Windu vs. Coron Horn

A. Lightsaber duel - Well, firstly it's Corran, not Coron. Anyway, this goes to Corran. I know that many people don't think of him as very good, but I personally put him above the likes of Kyle. In fact, I think he could give *gasp* Luke a tough time. Why do I think he's so good? Because he can take a hit from a lightsaber and only recieve minor charring of the skin. Even if Mace manages to land a hit on him it won't hurt Corran much and would allow for Corran to win.

B. Force duel - This goes to Corran also. Corran is not very well known for his Force powers, but they are very power. His alter mind technique is so power than he was able to control the minds of more than ten other trainee's, plus Luke Skywalker, for a period of time and make them think that he was lifting a giant rock into the air.

C. Overall - This goes to Corran, obviously, as he is better with both the Force and the lightsaber. Shatter

Battle 6: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Ganner Rhysode

A. Lightsaber duel - I'm giving this to Obi-wan. Ganner is awsome but he's not that strong except in the final moments before he died (during that time he could possibly have taken Luke!).

B. Force duel - Again going to Obi-wan. Ganner cool-ness comes from the fact that he really isn't a very good Jedi but somehow still manages to come out on top despite his inferior skills. However, he's just not up to Obi-wan's level.

C. Overall - Since Obi-wan is better with both the Force and saber he obviously wins.

All PT members who makes it passed this battle-
vs. NJO Luke Skywalker

Ahem. Obi-wan and Dooku vs. Luke? I'm not even going to break this down into sabers and the Force. Luke wins both.

Do not Underestimate Sidds and Yoda Lord Glentract

I don't agree with Jacen being more powerful than Sidious, at least not yet. Yes the extent of his force skills come close to rivaling Sidious', or even surpassing him, but he does not yet have Sidious' mastery of the force. And as I recall, him being able to fight four slayers does not put him above anybody else. I can go in the ring toe to toe with Mike Tyson but I'd get my ass beat.

Jacen not only went up against the Slayers, he defeated several of them. He definately didn't get his ass beat.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jacen not only went up against the Slayers, he defeated several of them. He definately didn't get his ass beat.

How would this feat put him above Sidious? This is where the bullshit inconsistencies come in. In one story you have Jacen rival only Luke, in another you have Jacen not coming close..

A single Slayer was enough to overwhelm Kyp. Jacen handled 4 of them. That's freakin impressive, enough so as to put him above Sidious in my book. Think about it. the Slayers are the very strongest strongest warriors out of an entire society of trillions of beings that is dedicated to combat. They're good. And what's this about inconsistencies?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
A single Slayer was enough to overwhelm Kyp. Jacen handled 4 of them. That's freakin impressive, enough so as to put him above Sidious in my book. Think about it. the Slayers are the very strongest strongest warriors out of an entire society of trillions of beings that is dedicated to combat. They're good. And what's this about inconsistencies?

Four slayers puts Jacen above DE Sidious, yet Luke destroying an entire army of slayers won't get him past Exar Kun(as you like to use IKC's arguments)? Interesting Glentract. What could Sidious do? Oh thats right, create a force storm that would destroy an entire army of Vong Slayers, without actually having to fight any of them. Not to mention his force speed is insane.

Wait, since when was this DE Sids? I thought it was the PT vs the NJO, which would make it ROTS Sidious!

The New Jedi Order takes this one.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Four slayers puts Jacen above DE Sidious,

It's ROTS Sidious, moron.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
yet Luke destroying an entire army of slayers won't get him past Exar Kun(as you like to use IKC's arguments)?

I'd hardly consider seven an army. And I've said many times that Luke would take Exar.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Interesting Glentract. What could Sidious do? Oh thats right, create a force storm that would destroy an entire army of Vong Slayers, without actually having to fight any of them.

ROTS Sidious can't use Force Storm.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Not to mention his force speed is insane.

There are people who have superior Force Speed. Prove Sidious' is above Jacen's.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It's ROTS Sidious, moron.
No need to get angry because you've been pwned one too many times child. Learn to talk to your elders and address me as the great one, thanks.




Really? Weird, considering you get all your arguments from EOD and they seem to disagree.




No really?




First, prove Jacen has force speed, then prove that he has mastered it to the extent DE Sidious did against Luke.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Really? Weird, considering you get all your arguments from EOD and they seem to disagree.

Glentract's made his own arguments in the past, and I don't see much connection between Glentract's arguments and those made at EoD. When it comes down to things like "X vs. the Empire" or Jacen Solo, I've yet to see him copy any arguments.

Also, considering IKC has ridiculed Glentract for being a Luke fanboy, what are you talking about?



1. If a padawan Obi-Wan knew Force speed, I honestly don't see why Jacen wouldn't. Anyways, the New Jedi Order Sourcebook lists force speed (burst of speed) as an ability Jacen can use (Ch 5, pg 105).

2. Why would he have to "master it" to the degree DE Sidious has? If I'm not mistaken, he's only arguing against RotS Sidious in this case, so why should he prove something he's not exactly debating?

I keep forgetting that it's ROTS Sidious and not DE Sidious, my mistake.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No need to get angry because you've been pwned one too many times child. Learn to talk to your elders and address me as the great one, thanks.

Pwned by who? It certainly wasn't anyone who goes by Darth Sexy. Are you going to go ahead and admit that you made a mistake when you thought it was DE Sidious or what?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Really? Weird, considering you get all your arguments from EOD and they seem to disagree.

I think Advent covered this quite well.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No really?

Really.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
First, prove Jacen has force speed, then prove that he has mastered it to the extent DE Sidious did against Luke.

You made the mistake again. It's ROTS Sidious. And Advent already Jacen has Force Speed, so I won't restate it.

Ok then Glentract, explain what puts Jacen above ROTS Sidious?

1. He took out four Slayers. A single Slayer was enough to overwhlem Kyp Durron. On the same note, that Slayers were the strongest warriors out of the greatest warrior race in all of Star Wars. That puts them above the super-elites of organizations like the Mandalorians and the Echani.

2. He downright rivals Luke in power. Luke at this point is WAY past ROTS Sidious.

3. Jacen managed to kill the Voxyn Queen. The Voxyn are probably the most capable Jedi Hunters ever.

4. Take this as you will, but here's a quote from Vergere - "I tell you this: though neither he nor they yet know it, he is the greatest of all the Jedi. Jacen Solo is the living Jedi dream. Even without the Force, he is more dangerous than you can possibly imagine."

There's more, but I feel that's enough reasons for now.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
1. He took out four Slayers. A single Slayer was enough to overwhlem Kyp Durron. On the same note, that Slayers were the strongest warriors out of the greatest warrior race in all of Star Wars. That puts them above the super-elites of organizations like the Mandalorians and the Echani.
Who's to say Kyp was worth a shit in combat?


Oh really? Now what is your basis on this assumption, besides from the author inconsistencies? Jacen does not rival Luke.


Probably, and this equates to him being superior to Sidious how?


The same Vergere that thought Sidious was the most dangerous and most powerful person in the galaxy? Interesting.


Hardly a compelling argument Glentract.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Who's to say Kyp was worth a shit in combat?

Because he's the kind of guy who tosses around ships that are hundreds of meters long with a thought that it effortless.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh really? Now what is your basis on this assumption, besides from the author inconsistencies? Jacen does not rival Luke.

No, Jacen does infact rival Luke. It's late her, so I'll get you proof tomorrow.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Probably, and this equates to him being superior to Sidious how?

You've got to look at the bigger picture. It's another testament to Jacen's power.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The same Vergere that thought Sidious was the most dangerous and most powerful person in the galaxy? Interesting.

Are you calling me a liar?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hardly a compelling argument Glentract.

Let's see you make one for Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Because he's the kind of guy who tosses around ships that are hundreds of meters long with a thought that it effortless.
His force abilities have nothing to do with his combat prowess. I don't know how those two are intertwined.




Would love to see it.




How so. Joruus Cbaoth was able to control an entire fleet, would I put him on par with Luke? Hell no.




I'm asking you to prove up.




Make what for Sidious, he's the strongest sith lord by ROTS with incredible force abilities..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
His force abilities have nothing to do with his combat prowess. I don't know how those two are intertwined.

They are related very much. I have yet to see a single example of a Force god who sucks with a lightsaber. It's even been stated that the Force plays a massive role in lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Would love to see it.

And you will. Tomorrow.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How so. Joruus Cbaoth was able to control an entire fleet, would I put him on par with Luke? Hell no.

And this relates to my point how?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm asking you to prove up.

Take a good look at the quote I provided and the statement you provided (which you have shown no source for). If you look real hard she calls Sidious in yours the most powerful and dangerous person in the galaxy and the if you look at my quote it calls Jacen the greatest Jedi in the galaxy. Not all people are Jedi! $&%^!*# genius concept.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Make what for Sidious, he's the strongest sith lord by ROTS with incredible force abilities..

Can you read! Make a freakin argument for him. Where the heck do you get the notion that Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord by ROTS? He's the strongest one in ROTS, but not by ROTS.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
They are related very much. I have yet to see a single example of a Force god who sucks with a lightsaber. It's even been stated that the Force plays a massive role in lightsaber combat.
Well we have an ancient sith like Naga Sadow that was never shown to do anything special with a saber. I can name others but the point is just because you haven't seen it, doesn't make it so. Force abilities and combat prowess aren't necessarily synonymous with each other, and you can't prove it.






The statement you provided is nowhere near being clear cut, nor is there anywhere that states Yoda is the best of all Jedi, in those exact words. And since when does Vergere's opinion make it fact? She wanted Jacen to be the chosen sith to lead the galaxy, so you can call her opinion "biased".




What argument do you want me to make? That he's stronger? YOU are the one that claims Jacen is stronger, and you have yet to prove it. Instead of proving it, you offer me a counterargument?

NJO sucks, cept for luke and mara jade

Love The New Jedi Order. Mara Jade. Jacen and Jaina Solo. BenSkywalker. They rock

Agreed... (maybe for the first time, don't get using to this kadesh lololol)

By the way:

"Battle 1: Jedi Master Yoda vs. Kyp Durron

A. Lightsaber duel - Yoda takes this. Kyp's a very unbalanced Jedi with very little emphasis on saber skills. Yoda takes this will some difficulty, but not much.

B. Force duel - Kyp has the win here. With the exception of Luke he's the strongest Jedi ever when it comes to Force Powers. For example, in Star by Star Kyp was able to shove a freighter with the Force with very little effort. He was also able to control a black hole and showed less signs of drain afterwards than even Luke did. Yoda's just not up to Kyp's level here.

C. Overall (added by me to decide who fights in round 7) - I'd give this to Kyp. He's not good enough to defeat Yoda with his saber, but he'd be plenty able to hold Yoda off and defeat him with Force Powers.

Battle 2: Darth Sidious/Palpatine vs. Jacen Solo

A. Lightsaber duel - Jacen has been stated to be more powerful than Kyp Durron in one of the more recent books. Jacen was able to fight four Slayers at the same time which puts him extremely high in saber skills; high enough, I think, to defeat Sidious.

B. Force duel - Sidious has it here. Jacen has a large knowledge of exotic Force Powers but has shown little in the way of pure power. Sidious takes him down.

C. Overall - I'm leaning towards Jacen here. He's plenty skilled to take Sidious in a saber fight but would lose in a pure Force Battle. I think that his Force Powers are enough to hold off Sidious' attacks and he should be able to kill Sidious with his saber.

Battle 3: Darth Tyranus/Count Dooku vs. Jaina Solo

A. Lightsaber duel - Dooku wins. Jaina really not that impressive with her saber. She spends way to much time as a pilot and not enough time training.
B. Force duel - Same as the saber battle. Jaina isn't that powerful here.

C. Overall - Dooku for sure. I honestly don't know why she was labled the Sword of the Jedi. She's really not to great of a fighter.

Battle 4: Anakin Skywalker vs. Anakin Solo & Tahiri Veila

A. Lightsaber duel - This is hard to decided. Anakin Solo is very capable and I wouldn't be surprised if he won. However, Tahiri isn't up to par and Solo might end up dying trying to protect her. I'd give this to Skywalker.

B. Force duel - To close to call. Solo is very capable and with Tahiri's help could convievably win, but I'm not sure.

C. Overall - This goes to Skywalker, but just barely. Solo gets killed because he spends to much time looking out for Tahiri.

Battle 5: Mace Windu vs. Coron Horn

A. Lightsaber duel - Well, firstly it's Corran, not Coron. Anyway, this goes to Corran. I know that many people don't think of him as very good, but I personally put him above the likes of Kyle. In fact, I think he could give *gasp* Luke a tough time. Why do I think he's so good? Because he can take a hit from a lightsaber and only recieve minor charring of the skin. Even if Mace manages to land a hit on him it won't hurt Corran much and would allow for Corran to win.

B. Force duel - This goes to Corran also. Corran is not very well known for his Force powers, but they are very power. His alter mind technique is so power than he was able to control the minds of more than ten other trainee's, plus Luke Skywalker, for a period of time and make them think that he was lifting a giant rock into the air.

C. Overall - This goes to Corran, obviously, as he is better with both the Force and the lightsaber. Shatter

Battle 6: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs. Ganner Rhysode

A. Lightsaber duel - I'm giving this to Obi-wan. Ganner is awsome but he's not that strong except in the final moments before he died (during that time he could possibly have taken Luke!).

B. Force duel - Again going to Obi-wan. Ganner cool-ness comes from the fact that he really isn't a very good Jedi but somehow still manages to come out on top despite his inferior skills. However, he's just not up to Obi-wan's level.

C. Overall - Since Obi-wan is better with both the Force and saber he obviously wins.

All PT members who makes it passed this battle-
vs. NJO Luke Skywalker

Ahem. Obi-wan and Dooku vs. Luke? I'm not even going to break this down into sabers and the Force. Luke wins both."

THIS is fanboyism... Kyp durron beating yoda? Jacen beating sidious? Corran beating MACE (!!) with a LIGHTSABER (!!!!!)? Just lol...

PT Jedi Order seems stronger and will win.

Kamhal, sidious woukd **** jacen with the lightsaber, Being able to kill 3 jedi masters swiftly is impressive considering the fact he NEVER touched a lightsaber for 13 years strait

You have no proof of that... If is this the case, if he couldn't dedicate himself to the force, how he ever teach dooku all he knew about the darkside?

What makes you think he taught Dooku all he knew? You forget, Sidious didn't plan on anyone succeeding him as DLOTS, so it's VERY unlikely he even taught Vader everything he knew.

Originally posted by kamhal
You have no proof of that... If is this the case, if he couldn't dedicate himself to the force, how he ever teach dooku all he knew about the darkside?

You require a lightsaber to teach people about the dark side? Weird. LoE states that Dooku was such an accomplished swordsman when he came into Sidious's care that he did not need any training with a blade. The only things they did were Force-based only.

New Jedi Order will win after a long battle.

The point is that sidious could also be alone nad have his privacy in order to teach dooku dark side aspects, and don't tell he didn't knew the dark side. In fact it was the dark side how powered him up in his later life. In this case is much possible sidious sometimes practised his lightsaber skill...

Originally posted by kamhal
The point is that sidious could also be alone nad have his privacy in order to teach dooku dark side aspects, and don't tell he didn't knew the dark side. In fact it was the dark side how powered him up in his later life. In this case is much possible sidious sometimes practised his lightsaber skill...

He kept his lightsaber in a statue that was present since his first term as Chancellor. The RotS novelization confirms it. So he didn't touch a lightsaber for about 13 years.

Originally posted by kamhal
You have no proof of that... If is this the case, if he couldn't dedicate himself to the force, how he ever teach dooku all he knew about the darkside? Read the ROTS novel

Right. So the second lightsaber he used against yoda just magically appeared...

Originally posted by kamhal
Right. So the second lightsaber he used against yoda just magically appeared... He kept it in his office after he became chancellor. Sources proved this that he didnt use it for 13 years.

Sorry I'm a few days late. Been real busy recently.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Well we have an ancient sith like Naga Sadow that was never shown to do anything special with a saber. I can name others but the point is just because you haven't seen it, doesn't make it so. Force abilities and combat prowess aren't necessarily synonymous with each other, and you can't prove it.

Do they increase in proportion to one another? No, but we have yet to see a single person with amazing Force Powers that can at least hold his own with a lightsaber. Kyp isn't going to totally suck with a saber, yet the Slayers were so good that he lost to one. Four times that, and a win, make Jacen awsome with a saber.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The statement you provided is nowhere near being clear cut, nor is there anywhere that states Yoda is the best of all Jedi, in those exact words. And since when does Vergere's opinion make it fact? She wanted Jacen to be the chosen sith to lead the galaxy, so you can call her opinion "biased".

Why are you talking about Yoda? I'm totally confused now.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What argument do you want me to make? That he's stronger? YOU are the one that claims Jacen is stronger, and you have yet to prove it. Instead of proving it, you offer me a counterargument?

Yeah, I have claimed that Jacen is stronger and I have backed it with proof. If you want to prove that I am wrong you not only have to disprove my arguments but also creates new arguments for Sidious.

You have provided proof that Jacen is stronger because he fought four slayers? What is it with people these days spewing out nonsense and then claiming they have an argument. You do NOT have an argument by stating Jacen is powerful because he took on four slayers.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You have provided proof that Jacen is stronger because he fought four slayers? What is it with people these days spewing out nonsense and then claiming they have an argument. You do NOT have an argument by stating Jacen is powerful because he took on four slayers.

Are you claiming that the ONLY argument I have made is that he defeated four Slayers?

Yes, I am claiming that the only argument you have made that puts Jacen Solo ahead of Sidious was that he fought four slayers.

So your admitting that the Slayers argument puts Jacen ahead of Sidious?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So your admitting that the Slayers argument puts Jacen ahead of Sidious?
No Glentract Jesus, do you know how to read? I said that the only argument you have made(albeit an invalid and unsound argument), is that Jacen defeating four slayers puts him ahead of Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So your admitting that the Slayers argument puts Jacen ahead of Sidious?

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~djordan/Slayer_-_Reign_In_Blood2.jpg

Slayer ftw.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No Glentract Jesus, do you know how to read? I said that the only argument you have made(albeit an invalid and unsound argument), is that Jacen defeating four slayers puts him ahead of Sidious.

Well you're wrong. Here are some examples (but are not all of my arguments).

1. Jacen is 100% immune to pain. Even if Sidious managed to stab a hole through Jacen or chop off one of his arms, which he won't get the chance to do, it wouldn't stop Jacen or even slow him down for more than a second or two.

2. Jacen has been directly stated to be more powerful than Kyp Durron. Kyp is more powerful than Sidious.

3. Jacen's Force Phantom (he and Luke were fighting eachother from lightyears apart in the form of Force Phantoms due to Lumiya's trickery) was able to give Luke a very hard time. He certainly rivals Luke, there is no inconsistency in that.

4. Jacen was able to shrug off Raynar's influence more easily then Luke. Raynar direcly stated that this was because Jacen was to powerful for anyone to control.

There are others that I have posted as well, but I'll leave you with these for now.

That will save him from getting his head lobbed off how? How does that even matter? You do remember Sidious took his own force Lightning in his face...the same lightning that nearly caused Mace Windu to choke on the ozone from his Lightsaber.



LOL! Kyp is stronger now!



So now Jacen > Luke because Unuthrul wasn't able to control him, yet his force phantom loses to Luke in LOTF...makes sense doesn't it...

If thats all you have then I'd suggest you stop with this argument...

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
That will save him from getting his head lobbed off how? How does that even matter? You do remember Sidious took his own force Lightning in his face...the same lightning that nearly caused Mace Windu to choke on the ozone from his Lightsaber.

What makes you think that Sidious would ever manage to decapitate Jacen? Jacen has shown himself to be the superior fighter. And notice that Jacen is immune to pain where Sidious was screaming when he was getting hit by lightning.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
LOL! Kyp is stronger now!

Kyp has been stronger than ROTS Sidious for a long time.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
So now Jacen > Luke because Unuthrul wasn't able to control him, yet his force phantom loses to Luke in LOTF...makes sense doesn't it...

If thats all you have then I'd suggest you stop with this argument...

Are you retarded? When did I ever say that Jacen > Luke?

His uber speed. Glad you could notice the acting taking place on Sidious behalf, I'm sure you could also notice how he gets up a second after that with a smile on his face. Jacen has shown to be the superior fighter? Examples please, that say he could compete with the likes of Yoda and Mace.





I admit i thought this was about DE Sidious, but I still don't see what makes Kyp stronger. Please no "LAWL he moved teh Black holedslse!"





Are you so retarded that you couldn't see that thats what your "argument" implied? You say Jacen was too powerful to be controlled, then you say Luke struggled not to be controlled. That implies that Jacen is stronger then Luke. Then you post about how Jacen LOST to a Force Phantom of Luke. Makes sense doesn't it. AGAIN heres a site I think you should take a look at...secure.hop.com

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Well you're wrong. Here are some examples (but are not all of my arguments).


He's immune to pain now? Wow um.. I doubt that but lets assume for argument's sake that you're correct. Apparently you don't understand the physics of a human body. If you're immune to pain and you get your legs chopped off, you end up losing quite a lot of blood. Now because you're immune to this pain, your brain doesn't get the "signals" stating "OH my god that hurts". So you would eventually just collapse in the middle of fighting due to a loss of blood, shock, etc. But I guess that doesn't apply to the star wars universe huh.. Jacen supposedly being immune to pain means he wont' scream when he gets pwned(debatable) or he'll die in the middle of the fight. Not much of an argument there.

Thanks for that opinion. I didn't know Kyp was canonically more powerful than Sidious but you really seemed to prove your case. Oh wait.


It's a force phantom that could arguably "have a good fight with Luke". In no way does that mean that he rivals Luke himself or could stand up to him, especially if Luke was giving his all.


Really? Is this before or after Luke was described as "being in the heart of the force, immovable even by a black hole"? Is this before Luke pushed back against Raynar who had the whole Dark Nest before him? You're not really proving anything Glentract.

Just a point, Glentract said he and Luke was fighting AS Force phantoms, not that he was fighting a force phantom of Luke only!

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
His uber speed. Glad you could notice the acting taking place on Sidious behalf, I'm sure you could also notice how he gets up a second after that with a smile on his face. Jacen has shown to be the superior fighter? Examples please, that say he could compete with the likes of Yoda and Mace.

So the fact that he was able to stand up a minute after the lightning hit him must mean that he was faking the thing, right? WRONG! If this was true, I duess Luke must have been faking the pain in ROTJ.

It's like when a friend of mine shot himself with a tazer (his dad is a cop and let us play with one) he was on the ground writhing in pain while it was on but was fine only seconds after he turned it off.

And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious, not his DE incarnation. For the record, DE Sidious would defeat Jacen for sure. He'd still have a hard time, but it'd be a solid win for DE Sidious. Notice the repeated use of DE.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I admit i thought this was about DE Sidious, but I still don't see what makes Kyp stronger. Please no "LAWL he moved teh Black holedslse!"

Why shouldn't him controlling a black hole count as an argument? Anyway, Kyp Durron did pull a complete thunderstorm out of his sleeve after studying the force for one year.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Are you so retarded that you couldn't see that thats what your "argument" implied? You say Jacen was too powerful to be controlled, then you say Luke struggled not to be controlled. That implies that Jacen is stronger then Luke. Then you post about how Jacen LOST to a Force Phantom of Luke. Makes sense doesn't it. AGAIN heres a site I think you should take a look at...secure.hop.com

LMAO! That site is funny. I know of a few people around here who have need of it.

And it never occured to you that Jacen might have a particular talen in that area? Want some examples where a weaker person is better at particular talent? Here:

1. Mace is weaker than Yoda, but his Shatterpoint ability is FAR better than Yoda's.

2. Corran Horn's level of energy absorbtion is so high that he can be hit by a lightsaber and recieve only minor charring of the skin. No version of Luke can do this even though Luke is much stronger.

3. Streen has one of the most extreme examples of this. He has an affinity for controlling wind and the weather. He was able to create a tornado with only a few months of training.

As you can see, Jacen being better at resisting Raynar's manipulation than Luke doesn't mean that he is better at Luke, just that he is very powerful.

Now then, Jacen lost to Luke, but he was able to give him a hard time. Now, I'm NOT a fan of Jacen being this close to Luke in power, but that's just how the story has unfolded and we all have to accept it.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So the fact that he was able to stand up a minute after the lightning hit him must mean that he was faking the thing, right? WRONG! If this was true, I duess Luke must have been faking the pain in ROTJ.
Or the fact that the lightning was just damaging his "mask", and as soon as Anakin took off the arm of Mace, Sidious smiled and shot him with the full force of lightning.


Journal of Darth Maul, Sidious made an outline of him with his saber before Maul could blink. Sidious IS able to use force speed.




Why would a black hole be relevant in a 1 on 1 fight?



Yet he could not and would not defeat Yoda because his overall force mastery and saber skills are not on Yoda's level.



Jacen couldn't have done what Luke did to Raynar, trust me.


Except it why? One book makes Luke superior to Jacen by far, next book makes them almost equal. Which one are we to accept?

Sorry for the double post, assuming it still is one by the time I finish.

He's immune to pain now? Wow um.. I doubt that but lets assume for argument's sake that you're correct. Apparently you don't understand the physics of a human body. If you're immune to pain and you get your legs chopped off, you end up losing quite a lot of blood. Now because you're immune to this pain, your brain doesn't get the "signals" stating "OH my god that hurts". So you would eventually just collapse in the middle of fighting due to a loss of blood, shock, etc. But I guess that doesn't apply to the star wars universe huh.. Jacen supposedly being immune to pain means he wont' scream when he gets pwned(debatable) or he'll die in the middle of the fight. Not much of an argument there.

Hey guess what! Lightsabers instantly cauterize the wound! This means that Jacen won't bleed if he loses an arm. DUH!

Thanks for that opinion. I didn't know Kyp was canonically more powerful than Sidious but you really seemed to prove your case. Oh wait.

Oh, lets see. Kyp controlled a black hole with less diffuculty than Luke. He must be a total weakling.

It's a force phantom that could arguably "have a good fight with Luke". In no way does that mean that he rivals Luke himself or could stand up to him, especially if Luke was giving his all.

I take it that you haven't read the LOTF books. Luke is sleeping when he suddenly wakes up and is being attacked by a Force Phantom. He has NO IDEA that it is Jacen controlling it and thinks it's trying to kill him and is very hard pressed to defeat it. Luke was giving it his all.

Really? Is this before or after Luke was described as "being in the heart of the force, immovable even by a black hole"? Is this before Luke pushed back against Raynar who had the whole Dark Nest before him? You're not really proving anything Glentract.

It's not my fault you aren't informed. Go read the LOTF books. It's many years AFTER the DN books (*hint* Luke was described as the things that you mentioned in the DN books).

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Or the fact that the lightning was just damaging his "mask", and as soon as Anakin took off the arm of Mace, Sidious smiled and shot him with the full force of lightning.

And this would prove xxXAcStylesXxx argument that Sidious is immune to pain how?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Journal of Darth Maul, Sidious made an outline of him with his saber before Maul could blink. Sidious IS able to use force speed.

I'm not saying that he can't use Force Speed. However, Sidious CAN"T compete with Luke's saber skills. Jacen CAN.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Why would a black hole be relevant in a 1 on 1 fight?

Do you understand the amount of Force Power it would take to do such a thing? If put into a Force Push the person hit by the blast would be instantly pulverized. The main reason it's important however is that it shows Kyp's awsome all around Force prowless.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet he could not and would not defeat Yoda because his overall force mastery and saber skills are not on Yoda's level.

Exactly! I never stated that Jacen is better overall than Luke.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Jacen couldn't have done what Luke did to Raynar, trust me.

I'm not saying that he could. Jacen isn't as strong as Luke, he just rivals him.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except it why? One book makes Luke superior to Jacen by far, next book makes them almost equal. Which one are we to accept?

When was the last time a book made Luke superior to Jacen by far?

"faking the thing"

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume your talking about the pain not the actual lightning part of the duel which is confirmed he was bullshitting to turn Anakin, I'm basing him not being harmed based on the fact that he was acting while being blasted, he kept pumping energy into it, and he was smiling literally two seconds later. The fact that your comparing Padawan Luke Skywalker to Sith Lord Sidious is what makes your comparison wrong.



So...you proved nothing but that your friend is a complete idiot...Tazeer =/= Force Lightning.



"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord." - ROTS novel

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS.



So. How does that mean Kyp > Sidious.




Regardless, you didn't say that, you didn't specify this, you posted in regards to POWER. Not TALENT.



First off the only instances of a "force phantom duel" was in Betrayal and that was a Dark Side Luke, which book is this other "force phantom duel" in

Accept for the fact that what your debating happened in DN not LOTF (the Raynar not being able to control Jacen) And BEFORE Lukes utter ownage of Raynar and Lomi Plo.



It doesn't, and I never said that I said, it doesn't matter, I was only giving an example of Sidious high pain threshold, making Jacens "immune" to pain irrelevant




You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS.

Proof? He was able to beat Luke when he was channeling the entire Lightside of the force and the only thing that improved from ROTS to DE is his force powers, no evidence points to Lightsaber skills increasing. The fact that he could use the same blinding speed in the past, and the fact that he thought lightsaber dueling was a stupid thing only used to humble Jedi in DE further proves he didn't bother with LS training.



So I guess Bane is a god then who rules over all because of his moon moving power.

You do understand that Jacen isn't going to keep fighting at his normal strength if he loses an arm or a leg right? You make it seem as if he'll look at it say "Oh look that's funny", and continue. Give me a break.


No your logic is, since Kyp controlled a blackhole, he MUST be more powerful than Sidious. And as usual, your logic is incorrect.


I've actually read all 3 so far, and nothing says Luke was giving it his all, sorry glentract.


I have, and Luke is only supposed to get stronger in the LOTF books.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You do understand that Jacen isn't going to keep fighting at his normal strength if he loses an arm or a leg right? You make it seem as if he'll look at it say "Oh look that's funny", and continue. Give me a break.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that if he does lose an arm or something he will still be able to fight. If Sidious loses one, it's over, Jacen wins, as no Jedi besides Jacen and Tahiri have shown the ability to keep going when they've lost a limb.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No your logic is, since Kyp controlled a blackhole, he MUST be more powerful than Sidious. And as usual, your logic is incorrect.

No, that's not one I'm saying. Controlling a black hole is just one thing that Kyp has done that helps to prove that he is beyond Sidious.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I've actually read all 3 so far, and nothing says Luke was giving it his all, sorry glentract.

Is that so? So what you are saying is that Luke wasn't trying against some strange vision that is trying to kill him? BS.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I have, and Luke is only supposed to get stronger in the LOTF books.

Yeah, I know. That's why Jacen is so impressive. He is close to Luke in power.


Accept for the fact that what your debating happened in DN not LOTF (the Raynar not being able to control Jacen) And BEFORE Lukes utter ownage of Raynar and Lomi Plo.

Luke and Jacen fighting? No, that happened in Betrayal, after Luke fought Raynar.

It doesn't, and I never said that I said, it doesn't matter, I was only giving an example of Sidious high pain threshold, making Jacens "immune" to pain irrelevant

No, because if Sidious loses a hand he is going to do the same thing that happened to Mace and Luke. Scream in pain.

You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS.

Wrong. This is what I said, "And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious, not his DE incarnation."

Proof? He was able to beat Luke when he was channeling the entire Lightside of the force and the only thing that improved from ROTS to DE is his force powers, no evidence points to Lightsaber skills increasing. The fact that he could use the same blinding speed in the past, and the fact that he thought lightsaber dueling was a stupid thing only used to humble Jedi in DE further proves he didn't bother with LS training.

No evidence of his lightsaber powers increasing? BS. Does he move so has in ROTS that you can't see him? NO! His lightsaber skills increased GREATLY in DE.

So I guess Bane is a god then who rules over all because of his moon moving power.

No.

1. Bane moving the moon still isn't totally proven. Plus, if he moved it 3 feet over the course of a week it's not at all impressive.

2. Controlling a black hole would require dozens of times more power then moving a moon.

"faking the thing"

For the sake of argument, I'm going to assume your talking about the pain not the actual lightning part of the duel which is confirmed he was bullshitting to turn Anakin, I'm basing him not being harmed based on the fact that he was acting while being blasted, he kept pumping energy into it, and he was smiling literally two seconds later. The fact that your comparing Padawan Luke Skywalker to Sith Lord Sidious is what makes your comparison wrong.

Padawan Skywalker? Luke was a Jedi Knight by Yoda's standard by the time he got hit by lightning. Plus, if Luke's a Padawan he much be the most capable padawan ever to have been able to defeat Vader as one.

And so what if he was unharmed by reflected lightning. how is it going to save him from a lightsaber through the face?

So...you proved nothing but that your friend is a complete idiot...Tazeer =/= Force Lightning.

Yeah, we're dumb. So what. My point remains. Energy coursing through your body doesn't hurt as soon as the current cuts off. That's why Sidious was fine after the lightning stopped.

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord." - ROTS novel

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS.

I never said that he doesn't have Force Speed in ROTS.

So. How does that mean Kyp > Sidious.

What has Sidious done that can match it?

Regardless, you didn't say that, you didn't specify this, you posted in regards to POWER. Not TALENT.

I know what I posted in regards to, not you. I didn't specify power.

First off the only instances of a "force phantom duel" was in Betrayal and that was a Dark Side Luke, which book is this other "force phantom duel" in

Hmmm. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Care to explain?

Glentract, TPM sidious would rape jacen in saber combat, According to alot of people, he moves faster than the eye could see

Dark Empire proves you wrong again, Sidious loses his hand to Luke and it only makes him madder, creating his force storm. You have no point.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144





Having lightning so power it instakills:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=043
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=044
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=045

This:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=051
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=052
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=053
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=054
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=055
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=056
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=057
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=058
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

Killing a 100 of Stormtroopers like nothing.

Beating f*cking YODA.







(the Raynar not being able to control Jacen)

Hooked on Phonics man...




http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

A huh.

You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS.



I'm actually baffled by your stupidity in this instance...

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

"You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS ."

H. O. P.



Again I'm baffled...

Journal of Darth Maul, Sidious made an outline of him with his saber before Maul could blink.

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS. The same "blur" that he's described by Liea as in DE.

Dude, all this was ALREADY posted...Now there is no evidence his skills have improved by the fact that he thinks Lightsabers are "Jedi" weapons only used to humble them.




LOL! And you can prove that how? Prove how much energy it takes to move a SMALL black hole. Prove how much power it takes to move a planet. You can't. Let me ask you does Kyp being able to better manipulate a Black Hole make him stronger then Luke who passed out because of it? By you logic of "Cooler feats = Stronger Person" it does.



Titles are regardless, I only used it to show that Luke at the time was rather weak, it would be a lie to say Jedi Master Luke. Your still comparing Luke with a few years of training to Sidious with about 40 years of dedicated dark side practice.



Again I'm sure a police tazer is the equivalent of force lighting. And I'm sure YOU know the exact physics of FORCE LIGHTNING and how much pain someone goes through And I'm sure the pain of you know having his face literally melted just went away




"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."




See above.




4. Jacen was able to shrug off Raynar's influence more easily then Luke. Raynar directly stated that this was because Jacen was to powerful for anyone to control.

Obviously your heads so far up your own ass, you don't even know what you post.



The only "force phantom" duel I remember in Betrayal was between Dark Side Luke brought on by Lumiya that Jacen lost too.

In all I haven't seen this much stupidity in one post since Planet.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Dark Empire proves you wrong again, Sidious loses his hand to Luke and it only makes him madder, creating his force storm. You have no point.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144





Having lightning so power it instakills:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=043
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=044
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=045

This:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=051
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=052
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=053
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=054
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=055
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=056
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=057
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=058
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

Killing a 100 of Stormtroopers like nothing.

Beating f*cking YODA.







(the Raynar not being able to control Jacen)

Hooked on Phonics man...




http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

A huh.

You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS.



I'm actually baffled by your stupidity in this instance...

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

"You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS ."

H. O. P.



Again I'm baffled...

Journal of Darth Maul, Sidious made an outline of him with his saber before Maul could blink.

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS. The same "blur" that he's described by Liea as in DE.

Dude, all this was ALREADY posted...Now there is no evidence his skills have improved by the fact that he thinks Lightsabers are "Jedi" weapons only used to humble them.




LOL! And you can prove that how? Prove how much energy it takes to move a SMALL black hole. Prove how much power it takes to move a planet. You can't. Let me ask you does Kyp being able to better manipulate a Black Hole make him stronger then Luke who passed out because of it? By you logic of "Cooler feats = Stronger Person" it does.



Titles are regardless, I only used it to show that Luke at the time was rather weak, it would be a lie to say Jedi Master Luke. Your still comparing Luke with a few years of training to Sidious with about 40 years of dedicated dark side practice.



Again I'm sure a police tazer is the equivalent of force lighting. And I'm sure YOU know the exact physics of FORCE LIGHTNING and how much pain someone goes through And I'm sure the pain of you know having his face literally melted just went away




"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."




See above.




4. Jacen was able to shrug off Raynar's influence more easily then Luke. Raynar directly stated that this was because Jacen was to powerful for anyone to control.

Obviously your heads so far up your own ass, you don't even know what you post.



The only "force phantom" duel I remember in Betrayal was between Dark Side Luke brought on by Lumiya that Jacen lost too.

In all I haven't seen this much stupidity in one post since Planet. Omg pure ownage

pwned

Darth sexy, where do you get all those flaming pics? like PWNED or OWNED?

google images

Thx, i found a dog humping a cat

Dark Empire proves you wrong again, Sidious loses his hand to Luke and it only makes him madder, creating his force storm. You have no point.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

That's not ROTS Sidious. You saying that ROTS Sidious can do something because DE Sidious could do it is the same as me saying ROTJ Luke can do something because NJO Luke could do it.

Having lightning so power it instakills:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=043
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=044
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=160&page=045

This:

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=051
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=052
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=053
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=054
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=055
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=056
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=057
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=058
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

Killing a 100 of Stormtroopers like nothing.

Beating f*cking YODA.

AGAIN, this is not ROTS Sidious killing anyone with his lightning, much less a Force user that is almost as strong as Luke.

(the Raynar not being able to control Jacen)

I was referring to Luke and Jacen fighting. Anyway, So what if Raynar being unable to cotrol Jacen happened before Luke took Raynar out?

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=143
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=144

A huh.

By this logic since NJO Luke can control a black hole ROTJ Luke must be able to also. Retarded.

'm actually baffled by your stupidity in this instance...

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

"You JUST said he doesn't have that speed in ROTS ."

I NEVER said that he doesn't have Force Speed. I said he doesn't have UBER speed, meaning that he can't move faster than the eye can see in ROTS. Take you own advice and check out H.O.P.

Again I'm baffled...

Journal of Darth Maul, Sidious made an outline of him with his saber before Maul could blink.

"The shadow he fought, that blur of speed--could that be Palpatine?"- ROTS novel.

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

And because of his speed he's constantly called "The Shadow" in both duels in ROTS. The same "blur" that he's described by Liea as in DE.

Dude, all this was ALREADY posted...Now there is no evidence his skills have improved by the fact that he thinks Lightsabers are "Jedi" weapons only used to humble them.

How come we can see him move very easily in both of his fights in ROTS? The movie overrides the Journal of Darth Maul and any other source that you have. Evidence that he has improved in saber skills? For one he has a body that's in real good condition compared to before. Also, he moved WAY faster in DE then he ever did before.

LOL! And you can prove that how? Prove how much energy it takes to move a SMALL black hole. Prove how much power it takes to move a planet. You can't. Let me ask you does Kyp being able to better manipulate a Black Hole make him stronger then Luke who passed out because of it? By you logic of "Cooler feats = Stronger Person" it does.

Guess what, I can prove the energy required to move a black hole in relation to a planet. Shouldn't have challenged me here, math is my speciality.

The mass of the Earth is 59,742,000,000kg. Assuming Dxun has the same mass, which is likely due to gravity there being consistent with that of the Earth, to move it 3,000km we put 1g of centrifical force pushing outwards would require something like 1,756,414,800,000,000,000 newtons. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? Well compare it to what it would take to move a black hole the measily distance required to suck the ship up.

Mass of black hole with a Schwarzschild radius that is 3 km equals 1/3 the mass of the Sun.
The mass of the sun is 332,946 times that of the Earth.

Now, a black hole used to protect something 1 km long would need a Schwarzschild radius of 1 km. Also, it would be positioned at least 1 km from the ship to keep it from sucking the craft it. Because of how fast the ships move to keep it a safe distance away for normal manuvering would be at least 10km. This would mean that Kyp moved the black hole AT LEAST 10km to suck the ship in.

Mass of a 1km black hole equals 110,982 times that of the Earth or 6,630,286,640,000,000kg.

To move such a massive object 10km is phenominal. It would require 6,630,286,640,000,000,000.

6,630,286,640,000,000,000 / 1,756,414,800,000,000,000 = 3.77

What Kyp did required more than 3 times the strength than what Bane did. I'd say Kyp's a lot more impressive than Bane.

Oh, and no, Kyp controlling the black hole more easily than Luke doesn't make him all around better than Luke.

Titles are regardless, I only used it to show that Luke at the time was rather weak, it would be a lie to say Jedi Master Luke. Your still comparing Luke with a few years of training to Sidious with about 40 years of dedicated dark side practice.

However, my point remains. Sidious was screaming under the pain of lightning.

Again I'm sure a police tazer is the equivalent of force lighting. And I'm sure YOU know the exact physics of FORCE LIGHTNING and how much pain someone goes through roll eyes (sarcastic) And I'm sure the pain of you know having his face literally melted just went away roll eyes (sarcastic)

1. I don't need to know the exact physics to know that once a current is cut off the pain goes away.

2. I thought you had said that it was a mask, not his face. Incinsistencies, much?

"And Sidious has had uber speed since when? This is ROTS Sidious , not his DE incarnation ."

Uber speed =/= Force Speed

See above.

What are you referring to? There's nothing that indicates Sidious is superior to Kyp and plenty that shows Kyp is better than Sidious.

4. Jacen was able to shrug off Raynar's influence more easily then Luke. Raynar directly stated that this was because Jacen was to powerful for anyone to control.

Don't forget that Luke was ALSO to powerful for anyone to control. And this says overall power where? Having skill in a particular area, in this case over mental control, does not mean that anyone is saying that Jacen is more powerful than Luke.

The only "force phantom" duel I remember in Betrayal was between Dark Side Luke brought on by Lumiya that Jacen lost too.

You remember incorrectly it. What Jacen thought was a Dark Side vison of Luke was actually being controlled by the real Luke and what Luke thought was a Darkside vision was actually being controlled directly by Jacen.



@Kadesh

Omg pure ownage

Don't quote a long post and just say something stupid like this at the bottom. It wasn't ownage and it just takes up page space. What you're doing is called spamming.

Glentract, TPM sidious would rape jacen in saber combat, According to alot of people, he moves faster than the eye could see

No, that would be DE Sidious, not TPM Sidious. And Jacen moves fast enough to compete with Luke's 20 sabers, which is much faster than TPM or ROTS Sidious.

Agreed, completely; now that was pwnage.

And it is pretty clear that Sidious improves a hell of a lot in saber combat from RotS to DE.

1. He's had more time to develop his skills.
2. He's in a much better physical body.
3. He's much stronger with the force (he drained a considerable amount from Byss to make himself stronger in the force, and his mastery of the force is much greater by this point).

And we can quite clearly see his skills in the RotS movie - not very impressive at all, and in comparison to the uber descriptions of his DE incarnation? It's pretty obvious that his improvement was considerable.

Originally posted by Mic Assassin
Agreed, completely; now that was pwnage.

And it is pretty clear that Sidious improves a hell of a lot in saber combat from RotS to DE.

1. He's had more time to develop his skills.
2. He's in a much better physical body.
3. He's much stronger with the force (he drained a considerable amount from Byss to make himself stronger in the force, and his mastery of the force is much greater by this point).

And we can quite clearly see his skills in the RotS movie - not very impressive at all, and in comparison to the uber descriptions of his DE incarnation? It's pretty obvious that his improvement was considerable.
hmm no..

1. He doesn't train with a lightsaber anymore unless it's to humble a Jedi(as somebody else stated). He thinks its a useless weapon, so he does NOT train with it.
2. That is the ONLY reason he got better, because he's more mobile and agile with more force control.
3. So?
Read the novelization. Sidious HAS the ability to move faster than you can blink, not a great argument by you or Glentract.

1. Proof? He seemed perfectly happy to use it to battle Luke in DE, so I doubt he was completely against using such a weapon and training with it.

3. You don't see how more strength in the force and greater mastery would benefit his dueling abilities?

Watch the movie, he moves pretty slowly, slowly enough for the audience to clearly follow his every movement. The novel contradicts in this case, it's as simple as that.

Originally posted by Mic Assassin
1. Proof? He seemed perfectly happy to use it to battle Luke in DE, so I doubt he was completely against using such a weapon and training with it.

3. You don't see how more strength in the force and greater mastery would benefit his dueling abilities?

Watch the movie, he moves pretty slowly, slowly enough for the audience to clearly follow his every movement. The novel contradicts in this case, it's as simple as that.

1. I guess you missed the part in ROTJ where he didn't even bother carrying a lightsaber. He also called it "A jedi's weapon". Not to mention he spent 20 years studying the darkside and he had no need for a saber while Vader was killing Jedi.

3. No no, you said he IMPROVED with his saber, meaning he would have had to practice. Instead all that happened was him getting faster because of his 15 year old body, and because of his increased force abilities.
4. Watch the movie? I guess you missed the part where he slices 2 jedi masters before they could even react. Also, read the Journals of Darth Maul.

1. How do you know he never had a lightsaber on him during RotJ? Just because we don't see him with one, doesn't mean he didn't have one hiding behind his cloak. And even if he didn't have a lightsaber on him, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have practised with one to be utilised in situations where one would be beneficial.

He certainly didn't mind using that "jedi's weapon" against Luke in DE. You really think he'd use a weapon that he was out of practise with?

And Vader wasn't the only one killing jedi, Sidious killed quite a few during the dark times too apparently. And where was Vader during the period between RotJ and DE?

3. You seem to have missed my point. By saying that he improved in saber combat, I'm not talking purely in respect to technique. I'm saying that his superior mastery of the force would greatly benefit him in saber combat (reflexes, force speed, precognition etc), even moreso than before. If I said saber ability, that'd be a different story.

4. Yet this makes Agen and Saesee bad, not Sidious good. The point is, a considerable amount of speed wasn't necessary for Sidious to pull that off, as we can quite clearly follow Palpatine's every movement (in comparison to his 'moving faster than the eye can see?), and it didn't require any exceptional speed to do what he did, Saesee and Agen's reflexes at that particular point were just very lacking.

And anything inside the Journal of Darth Maul's that contradicts with what he can do in the movies is not canon.

Originally posted by Mic Assassin 1. How do you know he never had a lightsaber on him during RotJ? Just because we don't see him with one, doesn't mean he didn't have one hiding behind his cloak. And even if he didn't have a lightsaber on him, that doesn't mean that he wouldn't have practised with one to be utilised in situations where one would be beneficial.
"Take your Jedi weapon and strike me down. I am unarmed/I am defenseless". Ring a bell?


Considering that he was TOYING with Luke and had NO intention to kill him, YES!


Sidious spent his time studying holocrons/the dark side on Korriban and other planets. Vader did the killing. Obviously you missed the concept of the entire Star Wars Saga.


Ok well I thought you were referring to technique. He just got faster, that's all.


According to some credible sources on this forum, the only reason he lost to Mace was because of Shatterpoint. Now Mace was the TOP dog and one of the greatest saber duelists ever, and Sidious stalemated him after not practicing for 13 years. That's pretty damn impressive, not to mention I believe Nick Gillard refers to Sidious as "Level 9" in saber combat.



Yea no.. The journals were written for Pre episode 1, and therefore contradict nothing. It's a c-canon source, sorry.

He didn't have a lightsaber in his hand, ready to defend himself...
Seriously, this response couldn't have been more idiotic.



Why not just toy with him with the force? Why use a weapon that he's out of practise with? It was pretty clear that Luke was exceptional by this point, why take any chances?



I heard from Lightsnake that he claims to have killed jedi, and kept their lightsabers as trophies. Either way, no biggy.

I'll argue the other two points when I have some time.

Originally posted by Mic Assassin
He didn't have a lightsaber in his hand, ready to defend himself...
Seriously, this response couldn't have been more idiotic.
Says the one who can't prove that Sidious had, used, or even had a reason to use a lightsaber in the 20 years of the Empire.




Luke was not exceptional by DE and Sidious knew he was still better. Why toy with him in the force when you can make him think he has a chance with a saber, then beat him.

Glentract, where the hell was is stated jacen kept up with luke so called 20 sabers? The unfying force only said he might as well hold 20 sabers(luke) thats right i read the book.

And TPM sidious is the peak of his saberskills, jacen is going to get smacked both in the force and saber

By the way mic assassin.. you better not be nebaris

I wouldn't be surprised.

It doesn't matter, unless you're gonna ATTEMPT to prove that Sidious spent his time improving his pain thresh hold throughout the OT and DE. ESPECIALLY when it appears he didn't train his body whatsoever.



http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=051
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=052
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=053
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=054
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=055
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=056
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=057
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=058
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

Yep this wouldn't kill anybody Again unless you can prove that his lightning improved from ROTS to the OT you have no point. Now DE from ROTS yes. The ONLY time we see Sidious unleash this lightning is against uber force users Mace Windu and Yoda. You have no point (as usual)




Your missing the point, It was too DS's question whether the events happened before DN.





The only thing retarded is you, ONCE AGAIN your using illogical comparisons (Telekinesis to Pain thresholds) and (Jedi Master Luke who can channel the entire Lightside of the force to half trained ROTJ Luke) Now, Sidious is a different case: He apparently does NO training of the body at all, and only focuses on the force. So its FAR from "retarded" to assume his pain threshold remains the same (and since you or anyone else can't produce ANY evidence otherwise its fact)




LOL! Damage control anyone? Uber speed is not force speed? Whats the damn difference? Bane does "force speed" in PoD and moves faster then the eye can see, Augmenting your speed by use of the force IS FORCE SPEED, idiot.




God your retarded, rhetorical question. The movie overrides the databank? Even when it doesn't contradict? Evenw hen its elaborating on the movie?

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

We know he was moving with extreme speed, other sources say there were blurs, then we have the fact that the movie doesn't show the WHOLE DUEL, where as the book does, and as LeeLand Chee says if those things in the novel don't contradict the movie, and are in the place of a cutaway during the movie(or a characters thoughts) they are canon, there are TWO major cutaways in both of his duels, in the Mace one they end up in different places and in different positions. In the Yoda duel we see Sidious and Yoda FAR away from each other and Sidious disarmed. so we can conclude that in those cut aways Sidious uses his leet speed described in the novel, and in Darth Mauls journal. Your Wrong.







Well other then the fact that your using a mathematical theory, do I give a shit?(NO) To end your theory all I would have to say is "Prove how big the star that created the Black Hole" in the Star Wars universe some Black Holes were created at the formation of the universe "Prove it wasn't one of those that could be very small" The question about Bane was hypothetical. And the point was about Sidious. Now, you'd need to substantiate HOW much force energy it takes to move a Black Hole, Could Sidious mimic it? Well considering he can create force storms all over Coruscant, use the force to simultaneously reach all over the entire galaxy and affect Jedi (even force pushing Yoda) I'd say he could.



What are you talking about? Lucas said HE WAS ACTING. He smiles literally TWO seconds later. Hell he doesn't scream ONE time.
"He's a TRAITOR!"
"I have the power to save the one you love!"
"You must choose!"
"I can't hold it any longer... I...I...I..I...can't hold it..."

He NEVER goes "AHHHH HELPS! NEVER. Your lying.



HIS F*CKING FACE WAS MELTING. That goes away with the current huh?



I NEVER said that you dumbass, it was Darth Sexy, I go with the canon of Lucas's word that says it melted. Hooked on Phonics, much?




Yes it does you retard. I didn't know we had separate categories for force speed.

Here is the new category for speed according to whatever your name is:

Uber Speed

Leet Speed

Supersonic Speed

Sonic Speed

DBZ Speed

OMFGROTFLLMAO Speed

Force Speed

Normal Speed.




Apparently not since it took, Mara, Liea and Luke to stop it.



Raynar directly stated that this was because Jacen was to powerful for anyone to control.




You didn't say that,that is the point you didn't go "In regards to mental ability" admit your mistake and move on. Jesus.




Whatever. Tell me what page this is on.





Yeah it was.



According to whom? Sidious moves faster then Darth Maul can blink. Mace Windu is also described as moving as if he's wielding twenty this image proves it:
.]http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imagewirling_VZZZ.jpg
Then we have the fact that in Shatterpoint he was called literally invisible and yet Sidious went toe to toe and competed with that. THEN we have the fact that Yoda > Mace. And Sidious went toe to toe and WON with that. ROTS Sidious would lob Jacens head off

Wow you can copy and paste wookiepedia *claps* now prove he trained any of them in lightsaber combat, why would he when he had you VADER for that, when ever we see him with the DJ's he's NEVER giving them Lightsbaer instruction, hell the most I can remember him teaching them was a few bits about the Dark Side, he was training himself he wouldn't waste time with those losers

And as for Luke you and Wookie fail to note Liea was using BM on Luke during the battle. He was STILL nothing to the emperor who hadn't touched a saber in 20 years.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
It doesn't matter, unless you're gonna ATTEMPT to prove that Sidious spent his time improving his pain thresh hold throughout the OT and DE. ESPECIALLY when it appears he didn't train his body whatsoever.

Nope. Not my job. If you want to claim that ROTS Sidious has ANY ability to the same level as DE Sidious YOU have to prove it.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=051
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=052
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=053
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=054
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=055
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=056
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=057
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=058
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

Yep this wouldn't kill anybody Again unless you can prove that his lightning improved from ROTS to the OT you have no point. Now DE from ROTS yes. The ONLY time we see Sidious unleash this lightning is against uber force users Mace Windu and Yoda. You have no point (as usual)

It's not my job to prove that it improved. The burden is on you to prove that ROTS Sidious' is as strong as the OT Sidious' if that is what you want to claim.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Your missing the point, It was too DS's question whether the events happened before DN.

Well I don't know what the heck DS was getting at. Do you?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
The only thing retarded is you, ONCE AGAIN your using illogical comparisons (Telekinesis to Pain thresholds) and (Jedi Master Luke who can channel the entire Lightside of the force to half trained ROTJ Luke) Now, Sidious is a different case: He apparently does NO training of the body at all, and only focuses on the force. So its FAR from "retarded" to assume his pain threshold remains the same (and since you or anyone else can't produce ANY evidence otherwise its fact)

No, because Jedi and Sith use the Force to sustain themselves. DE Sidious is magnitudes stronger in the Force, which increased his pain threshold. Again, IF YOU WANT TO CLAIM THAT ROTS HAS EQUAL PAIN TOLERANCE TO DE SIDIOUS YOU MUST PROVE IT! YOU HAVE NOT!

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
LOL! Damage control anyone? Uber speed is not force speed? Whats the damn difference? Bane does "force speed" in PoD and moves faster then the eye can see, Augmenting your speed by use of the force IS FORCE SPEED, idiot.

You had better lay off the insults, buddy. They're getting rather annoying.

I'm not saying that using the Force to enhance ones speed isn't Force Speed. What I said is that ROTS Sidious' Force Speed is no where near as uber as DE Sidious'. You misunderstood that. Your fault, not mine.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
God your retarded, rhetorical question. The movie overrides the databank? Even when it doesn't contradict? Evenw hen its elaborating on the movie?

"It granted him inhuman dexterity and speed, agility enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back." - The Databank Palpatine

We don't see it, so it didn't happen. Doesn't matter what the databank says.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
We know he was moving with extreme speed, other sources say there were blurs, then we have the fact that the movie doesn't show the WHOLE DUEL, where as the book does, and as LeeLand Chee says if those things in the novel don't contradict the movie, and are in the place of a cutaway during the movie(or a characters thoughts) they are canon, there are TWO major cutaways in both of his duels, in the Mace one they end up in different places and in different positions. In the Yoda duel we see Sidious and Yoda FAR away from each other and Sidious disarmed. so we can conclude that in those cut aways Sidious uses his leet speed described in the novel, and in Darth Mauls journal. Your Wrong.

False conclusion. You can't assume that because there are some brief moments of the fight that were not seen the things you hope happened, happened in them.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Well other then the fact that your using a mathematical theory, do I give a shit?(NO) To end your theory all I would have to say is "Prove big the star that created the Black Hole" in the Star Wars universe some Black Holes were created at the formation of the universe "Prove it wasn't one of those that could be very small" The question about Bane was hypothetical. And the point was about Sidious. Now, you'd need to substantiate HOW much force energy it takes to move a Black Hole, Could Sidious mimic it? Well considering he can create force storms all over Coruscant, use the force to simultaneously reach all over the entire galaxy and affect Jedi (even force pushing Yoda) I'd say he could.

DE Sidious could perhaps. ROTS Sidious doesn't stand a chance of moving a black hole, nor does Bane. You want to prove me wrong prove my math wrong.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
What are you talking about? Lucas said HE WAS ACTING. He smiles literally TWO seconds later. Hell he doesn't scream ONE time.
"He's a TRAITOR!"
"I have the power to save the one you love!"
"You must choose!"
"I can't hold it any longer... I...I...I..I...can't hold it..."

He NEVER goes "AHHHH HELPS! NEVER. Your lying.

I'm not lying. Sidious was paralyzed by pain.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
HIS F*CKING FACE WAS MELTING. That goes away with the current huh?

His mask melted, not his face.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I NEVER said that you dumbass, it was Darth Sexy, I go with the canon of Lucas's word that says it melted. Hooked on Phonics, much?

When exactly did Lucas say that?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Yes it does you retard. I didn't know we had separate categories for force speed.

Here is the new category for speed according to what your name is:

Uber Speed

Leet Speed

Supersonic Speed

Sonic Speed

DBZ Speed

OMFGROTFLLMAO Speed

Force Speed

Normal Speed.

Good job. How long did it take you to come up with those? Again, I'm not saying that using the Force to enhance ones speed isn't Force Speed. What I said is that ROTS Sidious' Force Speed is no where near as uber as DE Sidious'. You misunderstood that. Your fault, not mine.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Apparently not since it took, Mara, Liea and Luke to stop it.

They aided, but Luke could easily have done it on his own. Unless you want to claim that Raynar is stronger than Luke, that is.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Raynar directly stated that this was because Jacen was to powerful for anyone to control.

You didn't say that,that is the point you didn't go "In regards to mental ability" admit your mistake and move on. Jesus.

Too powerful in that area, perhaps, but not overall, unless YOU want to be the one claiming that Jacen is more powerful than Luke.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Whatever. Tell me what page this is on.

I don't remember. Go look it up. Somewhere between 350 and 375 if I remember correctly.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Yeah it was.

No, I'm afraid it was not.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
According to whom? Sidious moves faster then Darth Maul can blink. Mace Windu is also described as moving as if he's wielding twenty this image proves it:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imagewirling_VZZZ.jpg
Then we have the fact that in Shatterpoint he was called literally invisible and yet Sidious went toe to toe and competed with that. THEN we have the fact that Yoda > Mace. And Sidious went toe to toe and WON with that. ROTS Sidious would lob Jacens head off.

Overrided by the movie. Any quotes regarding speed that put it above what was seen in the movie are not canon, as ROTS Sidious is the subject in question.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Wow you can copy and paste wookiepedia *claps* now prove he trained any of them in lightsaber combat, why would he when he had you VADER for that, when ever we see him with the DJ's he's NEVER giving them Lightsbaer instruction, hell the most I can remember him teaching them was a few bits about the Dark Side, he was training himself he wouldn't waste time with those losers

And as for Luke you and Wookie fail to note Liea was using BM on Luke during the battle. He was STILL nothing to the emperor who hadn't touched a saber in 20 years.

Luke DEFEATED the Emperor. And unless you can prove Vader taught them Sidious is the logical choice.

I just did. His body didn't improve.




I just did. See the pictures.




Nope.




Whoa, whoa your making the assertion that the more powerful you are in the force the less pain you feel correct? In that case Vader who is 80% of Sidious should have felt no pain from Lukes glancing blow, Anakin on Mustafar should have been able to walk on one hand up the slope while on fire and smile. Some people have higher pain thresholds, Sidious was one of them, Dooku had both his hands cut off an all he had was a "eep" look on his face, he didn't cry out in pain.

Sidious himself doesn't get stronger, (You can't increase potential, only Kyle Katarn can do that) He gained techniques, that were more powerful then anything he knew of before hence the "force storm" Sidious could already use the force in such extreme ways being so powerful he caused a power outage on Coruscant, Could simultaneously use the force to affect all the Jedi around the galaxy. He was so damn powerful his very presence was unbalancing the force.




I'm only speaking the truth.



Yes it is its described as THE SAME THING. BOTH are called blurs, Both move faster then beings can blink, Both have THE SAME speed. What don't you get about this? Its truly not that hard to understand.




I'm not assuming genius, I'm using points in the NOVEL where it says Sidious was using his godly speed to supplement the cutaways. Its perfectly logical. What your saying is not.



I'm not gonna waste my time, since you can't prove how big the Black Hole was, How it was formed. And how much energy it takes to move one. You have no point.





LOL! Proof? He's PARALYZED now? I thought he was screaming in pain. So PARALYZED he could KEEP shooting his lightining and smile, move around and get up two seconds latter. Your a liar.



Lucas says it was his face.



ROTS Commentary Advent and others have posted it dozens of times.




No. I'm only going by what wookie says since I'm very hesitant to take your word for ANYTHING considering you lie to help your point (Luke being force pushed)



Don't try to turn this around you said it not me





I don't have to book with me. Hence why I wasted my time asking you



Ya buddy it was and its continuing.



Already proved wrong. See above.


Because of Lieas BM. Dumbass



Considering Vader teaches the majority of them Lumiya, the Inquisitors. I'd say he does. The burden of proof is on YOU to prove that they were taught Lightsaber arts by Sidious.

good lord.

Manipulating a black hole, big deal, just an act of telekenesis to a much higher degree, of course mastery is needed to do so.

And what on earth does it mean if you manipulate a black hole? Its like saying zomg i shot a monkey and tore his genitals of, does it mean i can do the same to a gorilla? Course not, id get torn to pieces

Originally posted by Kadesh
Its like saying zomg i shot a monkey and tore his genitals of, does it mean i can do the same to a gorilla? Course not, id get torn to pieces

Lol.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Whoa, whoa your making the assertion that the more powerful you are in the force the less pain you feel correct? In that case Vader who is 80% of Sidious should have felt no pain from Lukes glancing blow, Anakin on Mustafar should have been able to walk on one hand up the slope while on fire and smile. Some people have higher pain thresholds, Sidious was one of them, Dooku had both his hands cut off an all he had was a "eep" look on his face, he didn't cry out in pain.

Quite the fan of the strawman, huh? Now Glentract wasn't saying that pain threshold is directly proportional to force strength, just that an increase in force strength grants one with greater pain threshold, which is completely true. That's not to say that Vader's pain threshold should be exactly 80% of Sidious' etc..., like you seem to think that Glentract was implying.



Actually, DE Sidious frequently drained energy from Byss, increasing his power levels (connection: current level and potential). And Sidious wouldn't have needed to increase his potential to become stronger anyway, that's a ridiculous comment, unless you want to argue that he'd reached his full potential already by RotS?



This is comparable to the stuff DE Sidious pulls off, how? And again, going by the highest form of canon, RotS Sidious has been proven to have highly inferior strength in comparison to his uber DE incarnation.



So let me get this straight; he starts off pretty average (in terms of speed, and by average, I'm speaking in comparison to the uber descriptions of his DE incarnation), and then just mystically grows super fast in the part of the movie that we conveniently never get to see, and then resumes with his average speed? LMFAO!!

Seriously, that's bullshit, and one of the most ridiculous points I've seen my whole time here.



Actually, from what I can see, he's pretty much already done that. It's your fault that the science and maths completely flew over your head.



I actually just read thought these points, and you were the one at fault. You don't seem to get how the term "power" can sometimes just be used to talk in respect to one particular aspect of power (in this case, most likely willpower), and not just overall power.



Who taught Vader Makashi, and the other forms that he originally didn't know? That's right, Darth SMAN.

Now seriously, Glentract's been destroying you, having Kadesh and Darth Sexy cheer for you like b1tches doesn't change that.

Nebaris...Nebaris...please prove that "an increase in force strength grants one with greater pain threshold" please with novel, sourcebook, movies quotes. I see dooku get BOTH his hands chopped off, and he only has a "Well would you look at that" expression on his face. He didn't scream, cry or yell out in extreme agony as Gletrant(whatever his name is) seems to imply what will happen to everyone but Jacen. With that said Sidious was already leagues above Dooku at that time, Dooku himself was shitting his pants at the thought of fighting Sidious. So Sidious had he had his hand chopped off would likely look at it and move on.




Well he had 60+ years by ROTS to master the Dark Side, he displays feats on the level of his DE self ie: Moving faster then the eye can see the eye of Darth Maul at that. By TMP was already called the strongest Sith ever, because of his expansive dark side power and knowledge. That and being called already at the time the most powerful practitioner of of the Dark Side, he literally was the dark side. So yeah by ROTS (or shortly after) I'd say he peaked, the extra Sith knowledge allowed him to apply his extreme power in other ways not known to him previously (The Force Storm) And since you can't prove HOW he used the power he drained from the people on Byss you have no point. He could have been using the power to attempt to slow decaying process of the clone bodies, or he could have been adding it to himself, he could have been feeding it into his Dark Side adepts(which we've seen him do) he could have been using it to help smooth over the transfer from clone body to clone body, he could have been using it for Alchemy. Who Knows.

And really you act like this matters...Palpatine set up shop on Byss and began draining the world and its denizens at about 19 BBY, This is the same year when ROTS takes place, where Vader first started the Inquisitors on this planet. So yeah Palpy had this power BEFORE DE.





Who's canon? Planets shitty opinion is not canon. ROTS Sidious has everything DE Sidious has with the exception of added knowledge and a younger body. That HARDLY qualifies him as "uber" over the ROTS version.





Now, whos using a Strawman (the one Logical Fallacy you seem to know) As I've said in the Yoda duel there is a LARGE cutaway where Sidious gets disarmed, the script describes this segment as furious, and extremely fast. We have the novel calling Palpatine "Shadow" because of the sheer amounts of speed he put out, that when he got going was described as a blur. Then we have NUMEROUS other sources saying he was moving with inhuman speed, we have him moving faster then Maul could blink. Plus, Leeland Chee allows this kind of thought process, so its perfectly valid.



Considering you put out shit like "Bane moved a moon omg!!!!UBAH I want to lick his left nut!!!!OMMGGG!" my reasoning and logic behind is perfectly valid.




No. Dip shit he applied a HYPOTHETICAL math equation using OUR Sun as the basis for his reasoning, considering the fact in the Star Wars universe Black Holes DO NOT have to be formed by dieing stars as in our universe they do (as far as we know) the black hole if I'm not mistaken was commented on as being small, also since in fact he cannot prove the exact size of the hole he has no point, for a black hole to suck in an object it doesn't have to be bigger then the object.

Now with that said, he can't even prove HOW much energy it takes to manipulate a black hole. Its the same as you and your Bane is uber crap, you can't substantiate it , therefor you( or he) have no point. So, if you want to in turn argue that Kyp Durron by the age of 30 with only Jedi training was stronger then Sidious who has 40+ years of Dark Side tutelage, said to be the most powerful ever, who beat Yoda, who has Byss, then be my guest.





Blow me. I could care less what you think, he made a completely general statement using power, in which it was regards to Jacen being superior to Luke. No one cares what you think Nebaris get a life and stop coming back with anther dumbass user name (ALL English rappers suck)





Himself, dipshit. Vader is self trained in the lightsaber arts, hence his training with the droids, Inquisitors and battling Jedi he taught HIMSELF, Sidious taught him Dark Side KNOWLEDGE.



Again blow me Nebaris, I could give two shits on a stick about your opinion, as does probably anyone here. He has yet to prove ONE point of relevance.

Watch the retard go: "LOL!!! who is Nebaris!?!?!?! "

This is why I came up with that since Sidious IS the darkside or whatever, the perfect weapon of the darkside, the strongest of the darkside, the sith'ari, the force created Anakin to combat the strongest user of the darkside. A sort of "The devil returns and God creates Jesus" nonsense. It makes sense, it just didn't pan out that way(especially since Luke became Jesus).

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Nebaris...Nebaris...please prove that "an increase in force strength grants one with greater pain threshold" please with novel, sourcebook, movies quotes. I see dooku get BOTH his hands chopped off, and he only has a "Well would you look at that" expression on his face. He didn't scream, cry or yell out in extreme agony as Gletrant(whatever his name is) seems to imply what will happen to everyone but Jacen. With that said Sidious was already leagues above Dooku at that time, Dooku himself was shitting his pants at the thought of fighting Sidious. So Sidious had he had his hand chopped off would likely look at it and move on.




Well he had 60+ years by ROTS to master the Dark Side, he displays feats on the level of his DE self ie: Moving faster then the eye can see the eye of Darth Maul at that. By TMP was already called the strongest Sith ever, because of his expansive dark side power and knowledge. That and being called already at the time the most powerful practitioner of of the Dark Side, he literally was the dark side. So yeah by ROTS (or shortly after) I'd say he peaked, the extra Sith knowledge allowed him to apply his extreme power in other ways not known to him previously (The Force Storm) And since you can't prove HOW he used the power he drained from the people on Byss you have no point. He could have been using the power to attempt to slow decaying process of the clone bodies, or he could have been adding it to himself, he could have been feeding it into his Dark Side adepts(which we've seen him do) he could have been using it to help smooth over the transfer from clone body to clone body, he could have been using it for Alchemy. Who Knows.

And really you act like this matters...Palpatine set up shop on Byss and began draining the world and its denizens at about 19 BBY, This is the same year when ROTS takes place, where Vader first started the Inquisitors on this planet. So yeah Palpy had this power BEFORE DE.





Who's canon? Planets shitty opinion is not canon. ROTS Sidious has everything DE Sidious has with the exception of added knowledge and a younger body. That HARDLY qualifies him as "uber" over the ROTS version.





Now, whos using a Strawman (the one Logical Fallacy you seem to know) As I've said in the Yoda duel there is a LARGE cutaway where Sidious gets disarmed, the script describes this segment as furious, and extremely fast. We have the novel calling Palpatine "Shadow" because of the sheer amounts of speed he put out, that when he got going was described as a blur. Then we have NUMEROUS other sources saying he was moving with inhuman speed, we have him moving faster then Maul could blink. Plus, Leeland Chee allows this kind of thought process, so its perfectly valid.



Considering you put out shit like "Bane moved a moon omg!!!!UBAH I want to lick his left nut!!!!OMMGGG!" my reasoning and logic behind is perfectly valid.




No. Dip shit he applied a HYPOTHETICAL math equation using OUR Sun as the basis for his reasoning, considering the fact in the Star Wars universe Black Holes DO NOT have to be formed by dieing stars as in our universe they do (as far as we know) the black hole if I'm not mistaken was commented on as being small, also since in fact he cannot prove the exact size of the hole he has no point, for a black hole to suck in an object it doesn't have to be bigger then the object.

Now with that said, he can't even prove HOW much energy it takes to manipulate a black hole. Its the same as you and your Bane is uber crap, you can't substantiate it , therefor you( or he) have no point. So, if you want to in turn argue that Kyp Durron by the age of 30 with only Jedi training was stronger then Sidious who has 40+ years of Dark Side tutelage, said to be the most powerful ever, who beat Yoda, who has Byss, then be my guest.





Blow me. I could care less what you think, he made a completely general statement using power, in which it was regards to Jacen being superior to Luke. No one cares what you think Nebaris get a life and stop coming back with anther dumbass user name (ALL English rappers suck)





Himself, dipshit. Vader is self trained in the lightsaber arts, hence his training with the droids, Inquisitors and battling Jedi he taught HIMSELF, Sidious taught him Dark Side KNOWLEDGE.



Again blow me Nebaris, I could give two shits on a stick about your opinion, as does probably anyone here. He has yet to prove ONE point of relevance.

Watch the retard go: "LOL!!! who is Nebaris!?!?!?! "

LOL!!! who is Nebaris!?!?!?!

Cute.

Come on Nebaris (if it is you, which it seems very likely) at least try acting better....

I smell the stench of Nebaris. Jesus, the guy is so damn obvious that it's pathetic.

Edit: By the way, I only recall Sidious draining the "lifeforce" from Byss to increase his own. Where is it said that he used it to increase his strength and potential in the Force?

Hint: It doesn't.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Hint: It doesn't.

Thanks.

Hint: No need to be sarcastic.

Why are we still debating this. THE NEW JEDI ORDER IS THE BEST.

No, not really.

YAY! Jacen wins.

(noob'n out)

I think he meant that they have the two strongest Jedi of all time: Luke and Jacen. And they have powerful warriors like Kyp, Kyle, Corran, Mara Jade, Anakin Solo (deceased), and Ganner (deceased).

SOck alert sock alert! Moderators should ban the sock and make sure no socks get off the KMC system

HUH HUH

Originally posted by General Kenobl
I think he meant that they have the two strongest Jedi of all time: Luke and Jacen. And they have powerful warriors like Kyp, Kyle, Corran, Mara Jade, Anakin Solo (deceased), and Ganner (deceased).

I really don't see Mara, Anakin, or Ganner as that great of fighters. Maybe equal to ROTS Obi-wan on average, but not in the top 20 of all time.