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While Big Boss has his hands full with insane Ganados, Leon Kennedy finds himself at the Big Shell. Unlike the whiney Raiden, Leon, after facing down Umbrella's monsters and Ganados by the truckload, comes prepared.

Ashley's been kidnapped again by Solidus Snake and his Sons of Liberty cohorts. This time, however, Leon is armed to the teeth, and after a crash course in stealth training, he is ready to go.

Leon is armed with the following:

1. Blacktail Handgun, maxed
2. Riot Shotgun, maxed
3. Various grenades: normal, flame, flash and chaff
4. M-16 with M203 Grenade Launcher attachment (Montana Special)
5. Desert Eagle, with the HandCannon attributes, minus the slow recoil

He will get the H.F. Blade from Snake as usual.

Here's an interesting sidenote for Leon: Leon was supposed to be in Raccoon City on September 28 (the day of the Raccoon Outbreak), but he was holed up in a motel, drunk over the fact that his girlfriend had dumped him. He wouldn't show up at Raccoon until the next day. Lucky him.

I just wanted to point out that Raiden is not a rookie himself. He've been killing and trained to kill since his childhod.

On-topic.
I see Leon defeating Fatman.
But there is nothing he could do to beat Fortune.
And both Solidus and Vamp are too much for him.

Originally posted by Sam Z
I just wanted to point out that Raiden is not a rookie himself. He've been killing and trained to kill since his childhod.

On-topic.
I see Leon defeating Fatman.
But there is nothing he could do to beat Fortune.
And both Solidus and Vamp are too much for him.

I think Raiden couldn't do squat against Fortune either. So Let's make this interesting. As in his Scenario B in RE2, he has to face off against Mr. X once again, only this time, the T-102 can be a useful distraction with the soldiers and bosses, or it can bash his head in.

It would be amusing to see whether or not Fortune's Rail Cannon can do anything about a rampaging Mr. X, or if Vamp can kill him with his knives.

Or better yet, Mr. X saves Leon the trouble of fighting Vamp.

When Mr. X's body was changed after being dumped in the molten pit, he was extremely fast and deadly. He moved so fast his legs didn't even touch the ground when he lunged at you and he just glided across the room.

Leon could do the C4 thing no problem with Stillman's Coolent. He can beat Fatman, then sneak into the Shell 1 Core to find Ames. Then he'll have to fight the Harrier II which will be a problem but he's familar with heavy firepower though nto necessarily Stingers. He'll be really nice to Emma like Raiden was. However, the main difference will be when Olga/Ninja appears, he's not gonna be like Retard Raiden. His reflexes are good and his speed is decent and he'll definitely be aware enough not to just get cheap-shotted.

Anyway, he makes it pretty solidly. The guys he went up against would laugh at Vamp. Krauser vs. Vamp = Dead Vamp. Vamp is a "wizard with knives" but he never showed any kind of actual knife fighting skill which, of course, Krauser has as well as the speed to match Vamp's moves.

No Knife fighting skills.... all of his attacks were Knife based... and the video clip were he kills the Seals ... with his Knives

That's not what I meant. I meant knife fighting as in sword-fighting, knife against knife. We saw no shows of him having knife-to-knife combat knowledge or indeed how much of knife-to-knife combat skill he has. I'm not saying he doesn't have it or anything but it's not shown and assuming he's good at it is not an option.

All I can say is that Leon gets WTFpwned. He stands no chance at all.

Leon S. Kennedy, "first day on the job" survives the Raccoon City Incident which claimed the lives of most every experienced police personel around. The S.T.A.R.S. elite were all no match for the incident but the complete and total novice survived it.

In RE4, he defeats enemies that would laugh at Vamp in Krauser and Saddle One El Gigante could kill Raiden easily. As could Salazr's Right-Hand who had a crapload more agility than speed than anything Raiden fought.

The only even somewhat difficult bits will be the swordfight with Solidus and the fight with the RAYS. But, like I said, Leon is skilled and smart. He won't be knocked out by Olga like a chump or being blundering about going "derrrrrr?" He'll be ripping Gurlukovich's guys apart supplying awesome one-liners and making MGS2 amuch more memorable game thanks to the substitution of a loser hero with a badass one.

...dies when gets to fortune.
Or Vamp tears him a new one.

Well, since that elevator came for Raiden, I presume it comes for Leon, too.

And Vamp couldn't tear Leon a new one. He couldn't tear half the people Leon beat a new one. Krauser> Vamp by a good deal. The monsters Leon beat > Vamp by a good deal as well. Krauser vs. Vamp wouldn't even be close. He'd definitely make sure the freak stayed dead.

He only gets pass her if gets lucky like Raiden when he accidently hit Vamp. That was the reason why Fortune stopped fighting Raiden. And I hardly doubt it'd help Leon.
And Vamp WILL tear him a new one. Concidering that he moves as fast (or even faster than Krauzer), can paralize his opponents and pretty much immortal. And the monsters Leon beat <<< opponents Raiden had to face. And I'd also argue "Krauzer>Vamp" claim. Leon can't get pass Rays or Solidus.
But it doesn't matter because I still say he stops at Fortune.

Leon is an excellent shot with terrific reflexes. Krauser had his gun trained right on Leon and Leon managed to whip out an item, tossed it at Krauser and knocked his aim off and then proceeded to run ahead of Kruaser's fire and got to cover. It's pretty easy he'll nail Vamp between the eyes.



Vamp's immortality is against bullets. He hasn't been stabbed or blown up. I want to see him take an explosive to the head and live to tell the tale. And he needs a shadow to paralyze the opponent. Plus Leon is extremely agile. No saying he couldn't just flip and move his shadow out of the way....



I'm not liking Fortune's chances against El Gigante. I'm not like Fatman's chances against Salazar's Right-Hand. The only boss he fought who had a reasonable chance against Leon's bosses would be the RAYS and Harrier II.



Feel free. Krauser can match Vamp's speed and has superior durability and actual knife-fighting skill. He is as good at stealth as Vamp.



Raiden had two seconds training with a sword and did it...



And I say he progresses.

Is Krauser immortal?

No. But is Vamp? I would like to know where the idea he is came from because all he's been through is just being shot in the head..... Not exactly a test to your immortality. Cut off his head and we'll see how immortal he is.

Well, dun think he is. But consider this, he can read muscle moment before they make it, deflecting bullets with ease, and srugs off to something like a bullet to the head...Don't know how Leon can beat him.

Maybe Leon just won't use bullets? Aren't there non-bullet weapons in MGS? Besides, the fight Raiden had with vamp frequently had Vamp diving in that little weird pool. Leon could just kinda train a launcher on it, wait for a sign of Vamp coming to the surface and blast.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Maybe Leon just won't use bullets? Aren't there non-bullet weapons in MGS? Besides, the fight Raiden had with vamp frequently had Vamp diving in that little weird pool. Leon could just kinda train a launcher on it, wait for a sign of Vamp coming to the surface and blast.

Leon never faced Vamp, so he doesn't know his powers. So I can -ASSUME-, Leon WILL use bullets.

Besides, Vamp killed three highly trained SEALS(the ones that combat terrorists) easily, without the pool. Vamp survived a church burning, lived from pierced into a crucifix, has superhuman speed and agility. As well can walk on walls and water. And more stated in my previous posts.

I don't think Leon can win this.

If Leon is progressing through the game roughly the same as Raiden did, he shot Vamp in the forehead. So he should deduce from this that bullets are a bad idea.



Very impressive. Though I take points away because one of them was randomly firing off his rifle and wasting his ammo in panic. I don't blame the guy...but it's the facts.



Nothing particularly new to Leon.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
If Leon is progressing through the game roughly the same as Raiden did, he shot Vamp in the forehead. So he should deduce from this that bullets are a bad idea.

We saw Vamp shrug it off, so..

Bullets + Vamp = Useless.

Even if Leon didn't use his firearms and used other melee weapons, look at Vamp's introduction. His speed is mad, going from one place to another in half a second. Seeing as Vamp shrugs of bullets, don't know how melee can affect him either.


Originally posted by Nikkolas

Very impressive. Though I take points away because one of them was randomly firing off his rifle and wasting his ammo in panic. I don't blame the guy...but it's the facts.

You shouldn't blame that poor guy. One of his friends died unexpectly, their target was so fast they were shooting almost everywhere, and suddenly out of nowhere, his other friend got killed from behind, and knew he was next. You would really blame the guy for panicing?




Originally posted by Nikkolas
Nothing particularly new to Leon.

Same goes for Vamp, facing an expert combantant. Noting particulary new for Vamp.

IMO, Vamp will go so fast, Leon's chest will be slashed before he can do anything about it.

Who said anything about melee? There are explosive weapons at his disposal.



Read what I said again. "I don't blame the guy". It's just you said Vamp took out three SEALs which is true but I was just saying it was impressive, but I take away points from its total impressiveness factor because one of the said SEALs was in a wild panic.



Depends what kind of tactics he uses. If they are the same ones he used in MGS2, all he does is leap from one side of the room to the other and then into that pool. He'll throw knives at you and might aim for your shadow to paralyze you. He never did engage Raiden in actual melee.

If he does just go to kill Leon...then you are right. Leon is dead.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Leon is an excellent shot with terrific reflexes. Krauser had his gun trained right on Leon and Leon managed to whip out an item, tossed it at Krauser and knocked his aim off and then proceeded to run ahead of Kruaser's fire and got to cover. It's pretty easy he'll nail Vamp between the eyes. Sorry, but Leon's most impressive reflexes feat was dodging lasers. And two last dodges were even impressive, but nothing special comparing to deflecting bullets with katana, which Raiden can do. Besides running from aim and preventing fire isn't the same as dodging speeding bullets. He can shoot Vamp all day, Vamp would dodge, paralize Leon and then cut into pieces.


Originally posted by Nikkolas

Vamp's immortality is against bullets. He hasn't been stabbed or blown up. I want to see him take an explosive to the head and live to tell the tale. And he needs a shadow to paralyze the opponent. Plus Leon is extremely agile. No saying he couldn't just flip and move his shadow out of the way.... His immortality is only against bulets?! Based on what? Sorry but being shot in the head few times and standing back up and claiming that he's already dead is a solid proof of immortality to me. And Leon is nowhere as agile and fast as Vamp. You'd have a point if his reflexes were on pair with Vamp's or at least close to his like Raiden's. Which they aren't.


Originally posted by Nikkolas

I'm not liking Fortune's chances against El Gigante. I'm not like Fatman's chances against Salazar's Right-Hand. The only boss he fought who had a reasonable chance against Leon's bosses would be the RAYS and Harrier II. And Solidus and Vamp. Good luck for El Gigante trying to tag Vamp. Solidus would simply destroy anyone. Would have a little trouble with speedsters, but the outcome would be the same.


Originally posted by Nikkolas

Feel free. Krauser can match Vamp's speed and has superior durability and actual knife-fighting skill. He is as good at stealth as Vamp.
Ok, speed - simillar.
durability - sorry but unlike Vamp Krauzer can die. That's all that matters.
knife-fighting skills - Krauzer is superior based on what? On your humble opinion, may be. But there's nothing that suggests that.
Stealth - Vamp. Killing a group of trained soldiers so they wouldn't even know what's killing them. And Pliskin even asked "where did he go" as if Vamp dissapeared.

Originally posted by Nikkolas

Raiden had two seconds training with a sword and did it...
And Raiden > Leon (sad because I hate Raiden, but truth). And Raiden was trained to kill and was killing since he was a child. Besides what makes you think it's the first time he held katana? Solidus was his "teacher" and katanas are his main weapons.
Sorry, but Leon stands no chance against Rays and Solidus.

Originally posted by Nikkolas


And I say he progresses.
Then care to explain how.

No one is talking about the actual fight. I'm talking about where Raiden capped Vamp in the forehead and escaped from Fortune. I'm saying Leon can replicate this.

And anyone can block bullets...even nobodies wearing special equipment. Nobodies who don't hav ea percent of the feats Krauser has with his own speed, agility and strength.



Dramatic flair and hyperbole... THe whole "I'm already dead" is obviously just BS drama effect. And taking a few bullets to the head? Krauser and Liquid both are currently "dead" and they sure took a hell of a lot more than a few bullets to the head. And if he is "immortal" he has no regen ability as that bullet hole was in his forehead for the whole game. So, cut off his head and he can be immortal all he wants to be.



Never claimed he was. But Vamp does nto throw the knives at bullet-speed or anything. Leon is very capable of dodging them.



You do realize he needs: a) a shadow and b) proper lighting, right? You can't say Leon will have a shadow just 'cause....




They are far and above Raiden's. Raiden blocked bullets...like every other regular grunt with special equipment. He also failed to simply move out of the way of the imapct of an explosiona nd was blasted back against a wall, coughing like a tool. Some agility on his part.



El Gigante is invulnerable until its Plaga comes out and Vamp doesn't have anywhere near the power to do that. He can dodge all day but he isn't gonna hurt El Gigante with his pissy little knives.



As a major Solidus fan, I realize his major handicap is agility. he can speed very well but he can't perform the acrobatics of a Gray Fox to go with that speed. Thus, it would be very easy for Salazar's Right-Hand to dispose of him.



Being shot int eh head a few times <<<<<<<<<<<<< bomb being blown up in face and heart exploding.



No. Based on logic. We never saw Vamp demonstrate any sort of knife-to-knife skill. He can thrwo them expertly and slit throats. No showigns at all he can duel with them.



Leon sensed Krauser but even as he turned, Krauser was gone. When Krauser wanted to escape during a confrontation, he'd activate a flash bomb and there wouldn't be a trace of him and he was usually a good distance away from you in a second. He snuck up on Ada, while suffering from 1st degree burns, and nearly killed her by just wrenching up an iron bar and tossing it at her. Leon and Ada > random Navy SEALs.



Last time Solidus saw him he was a kid. On an actual battlefield and in war, a katana wielded by a youth is not on par with a gun. I want to see Raiden with katana and probably even less mobilitya nd skill than in MGS2 try to fight in a battle with people using guns.



Question. Does Fortune's little device protect against actual physical attack? What is preventing Krauser from blitzing her and running her through? Bullets and projectiles all were useless against her but breaking her neck might work.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
No one is talking about the actual fight. I'm talking about where Raiden capped Vamp in the forehead and escaped from Fortune. I'm saying Leon can replicate this. He can't replicate movement of the bullet, that was an accident and a great luck for Raiden. Hoping that Leon could do the same is naive. So he still stops at Fortune.
Originally posted by Nikkolas

And anyone can block bullets...even nobodies wearing special equipment. Nobodies who don't hav ea percent of the feats Krauser has with his own speed, agility and strength. Oh c'mone! Those "nobodies" were enhanced super-soldiers, they were jumping 10 meters straight up. And I think we already discussed that. Raiden without any kind of equipment could do that. Leon could only dream of that. So you was saying?


Originally posted by Nikkolas

Dramatic flair and hyperbole... THe whole "I'm already dead" is obviously just BS drama effect. And taking a few bullets to the head? Krauser and Liquid both are currently "dead" and they sure took a hell of a lot more than a few bullets to the head. And if he is "immortal" he has no regen ability as that bullet hole was in his forehead for the whole game. So, cut off his head and he can be immortal all he wants to be.
Liquid isn't actually dead, according to his own words he "lived through...". And like it or not, Vamp is dead. According to konami, so he is officialy dead. So he was telling the truth when he said that he's already dead. No reason to believe that he lied when he said that he "can't die twice". Unlike Krauzer.

Originally posted by Nikkolas

Never claimed he was. But Vamp does nto throw the knives at bullet-speed or anything. Leon is very capable of dodging them.
Vamp himself moves faster than Leon could react. Add dozens flying knifes and there is noway for Leon to dodge.

Originally posted by Nikkolas

You do realize he needs: a) a shadow and b) proper lighting, right? You can't say Leon will have a shadow just 'cause....
You do realize that a) It'd be hard for Leon to find place with no shadows and b) Even if he finds it, he won't be able to stay there for long concidering that Vamp is after him.
Besides, Leon would be paralized before he could even think of any way to avoid this attack.


Originally posted by Nikkolas


They are far and above Raiden's. Raiden blocked bullets...like every other regular grunt with special equipment. He also failed to simply move out of the way of the imapct of an explosiona nd was blasted back against a wall, coughing like a tool. Some agility on his part.

lol Yeah, every regular grunt can, but Leon CAN'T. And whenever you learn to deflect bullets let me know, because you speak of it as of an average thing. And enough of that anyone-with-equipment-can-do thing, it's getting lame. Fact. Raiden has better reflexes than Leon, going by their feats.

Originally posted by Nikkolas

El Gigante is invulnerable until its Plaga comes out and Vamp doesn't have anywhere near the power to do that. He can dodge all day but he isn't gonna hurt El Gigante with his pissy little knives.
Thank you. He can dodge all day, yep. And there's nothing El Gigante could do to him. On the other hand Vamp can cut his eyes, and knifes would hurt him.

Originally posted by Nikkolas


As a major Solidus fan, I realize his major handicap is agility. he can speed very well but he can't perform the acrobatics of a Gray Fox to go with that speed. Thus, it would be very easy for Salazar's Right-Hand to dispose of him. Agility is not that important when you have Solidus speed. He can dodge multiple Rays gunfire with ease. Sounds as a good argument to me. And it takes us back to the main topic. How do you think Leon would beat Solidus, that has superspeed, rocket launchers, two tantacles, two katanas and reflexes better than Leon's?


Originally posted by Nikkolas

Being shot int eh head a few times <<<<<<<<<<<<< bomb being blown up in face and heart exploding. Fair enough. But immortality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> superhuman durability. Just as army of Rays >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> El Grande.

Originally posted by Nikkolas


No. Based on logic. We never saw Vamp demonstrate any sort of knife-to-knife skill. He can thrwo them expertly and slit throats. No showigns at all he can duel with them. In the whole game there wasn't a single person that'd dare to fight Vamp knife-to-knife. And there was no character that tried that. This doesn't prove that he's not experienced in knife combat. But throwing them with unblelievable force, speed and perfect aim prove otherwise. As well as killing group of soldiers with it.


Originally posted by Nikkolas

Leon sensed Krauser but even as he turned, Krauser was gone. When Krauser wanted to escape during a confrontation, he'd activate a flash bomb and there wouldn't be a trace of him and he was usually a good distance away from you in a second. He snuck up on Ada, while suffering from 1st degree burns, and nearly killed her by just wrenching up an iron bar and tossing it at her. Leon and Ada > random Navy SEALs. Vamp snuck up on Pliskin, snuck up on Raiden. After dodging machinegun fire was gone so fast that Pliskin thought that he dissapeared. Snake and Raiden >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> random Navy SEALs.


Originally posted by Nikkolas

Last time Solidus saw him he was a kid. On an actual battlefield and in war, a katana wielded by a youth is not on par with a gun. I want to see Raiden with katana and probably even less mobilitya nd skill than in MGS2 try to fight in a battle with people using guns.
And Solidus still was the one who trained Raiden and teached him everything he knew. He may not used it in a battlefield but he was trained. Solidus knew what he was doing when he gave Raiden katana before the last fight. He wouldn't do that if knew that Jack was an amature.


Originally posted by Nikkolas

Question. Does Fortune's little device protect against actual physical attack? What is preventing Krauser from blitzing her and running her through? Bullets and projectiles all were useless against her but breaking her neck might work. Um... since when it turned into Krauzer vs MGS2? I'm talking about Leon.
As for attacks. Fortune was wearing this gadget for years and for years she've been thinking that she is lady-luck. If she was that easy to hurt, I'm sure this would've already happened in those few years.
And second, cutscene with her last appearance proves that it was not gadget that made her "lucky" but her natural powers. So breaking her neck wouldn't be a piece of cake, since she really is lady-luck.

....

Gun = VERY FAST

Explosives = Slow..

SPEED

GUN > EXPLOSIVE

Explosive could kill Vamp, but again, Vamp is too fast for guns and explosive. If a freakin MACHINE GUN can't hit Vamp, why do you think explosives could? Hell I bet you $99.99 that before Leon's grenade can even hit the ground, Vamp would paralyze Leon faster you can say 'BOOM'.

And thank you Sam Z for the support and those evidence.

Flash bombs? Before the flash bomb would work, Krauser would be wtfpwned by Vamp.

Raiden was nicknamed the White Devil & Jack the Ripper when he was in the children army. I doubt he was called that because he drank lots of Mountain Dew.

actually Leon's reflexes is probably better than you consider it is, i mean look at all the things he dodges and how he dodges most of them

All this talk of the Seals is hilarious.

It wasn't a far fight and should be considered void.

These guys acted like chumps , yes we pity them and understand why , but they still acted like they were green. Plus the first two kills were stealth kills. Stealth kills dont show skill.

Leon outran a boulder, kept up with Krauser in a knife fight, was running ahead of Salazar's statue WHILE dodging and flipping around falling debris. He reacted and tosed a weapon to knock Krauser's gun barrel off him. He's dodged laser-beams.

Raiden was thrown off his feet and sent sprawling by the simple force of an explosion not even that close to him.

These guys acted like chumps , yes we pity them and understand why , but they still acted like they were green. Plus the first two kills were stealth kills. Stealth kills dont show skill.

What are you talking about stealth kill dont show skill. if you are able to sneak up on an enemy and kill him, i think that shows alot ok skill. and someone saying that vamp is only good at throwing knives thats not true, theres one part where they say hes an expert with both combat knives and throwing knive.

And for saying hes not all that quick, he was able to jump from a harrier onto water quick enought to start running on water then jump onto part of the big shell and maintain enough speed to run up the wall.

Originally posted by Black Dalek
We saw Vamp shrug it off, so..

Bullets + Vamp = Useless.


Vamp over the course of the game was incapacitated by bullets three times. He doesn't just shrug them off. If for whatever reason Vamp can't read Leon's muscles (was there any explanation given for why Vamp couldn't read Raiden's?), then Leon would be able to clear Vamp. Flash grenade>shot in the head might also work.

Originally posted by SolidSnake06

And for saying hes not all that quick, he was able to jump from a harrier onto water quick enought to start running on water then jump onto part of the big shell and maintain enough speed to run up the wall.

Right before Vamp is about to gut Emma he stands on the water. His feet aren't moving. Later when you meet him as Raiden, he's sitting on the water in the middle of the room, so it wasn't his speed that enabled him to run on the water. So fast enough to run up the wall, but not fast enough to help him beat someone whose moves he can't read.

Physically, I think Leon can match and probably exceed anything that Snake/Raiden accomplish in MGS2. But if he doesn't get the breaks that they get to advance the story (i.e. bullet veering off Fortune's shield to hit Vamp, Vamp not being able to read his moves, Snake taking the fall so he can bypass Fortune), I don't think he'll make it.