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I was thinking about similarities between Star Wars and LOTR the other day...there's quite a lot of parallels! A couple being:

-Obi-Wan = Gandolf. A wise mentor, also killed and comes back to help out.

-Turning to the dark side of the force = Getting sucked in by the power of the ring. Become consumed by evil.

...

They are both about good and evil

I don't think this belongs here.

Dunno where to put it...suggestions?

Count Dooku = Saruman on many levels. I might post them later if I have time.

There is a VS-forum, isn't there?

I'm not sure this is a versus thread, more of a comparison...

Also, the SWVs. is strictly Star Wars on Star Wars.

Maybe SW EU?

No...I thought of that...but we're not talking about EU Star Wars...if anything, we're talking about OT Star Wars...where it all started...well, kinda. I say just leave it here?


-Just thought of another one this moment!

The ring is destroyed = The Emperor is destroyed...both thrown down a fiery pit in the climax.

Star Wars - ROTJ; Luke: "I'm not leaving, I've got to save you." Vader: "You already have, Luke."

LOTR - ROTK; Some random chick; "I've got to save you." Some random king guy: "You already did."


GAAAAAAYYY!!!!! Can you say, "bite much"? That was terrible. Also, Return of the Jedi (third movie), Return of the King(third movie).
Although the books were written many years before the Star Wars script, the screenplays were not, and obviously bit some things from the SW trilogy.

He plays the treacherous Count Dooku in Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones and the wizard Saruman in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings films. Both characters derive their power from their force of persuasion. Both characters are subordinates to a greater villain, Darth Sidious in Star Wars and Sauron in The Lord of the Rings. Both characters are members of a higher class than others (Jedi or Wizard) and in both cases his characters are killed at the beginning of the third film.

Saruman and Dooku also captured Gandalf and Kenobi respectively. They were also both 'good' characters before turning to evil.

Amazing!!! You rock!

Hahaha thanks, I forgot to add that they were both portrayed by Christopher Lee.

You also forgot that both commanded a large army.

Ohhh well done, I hadnt thought of that one.

Let me think:

Both had an underling (Dooku = Jango and Saruman = Wormtongue). Both planned to betray their master. Both tried to convince the one they captured to join them (Kenobi/Gandalf). Both sought a greater power. Both united regions/planets to their cause. Both had a right hand man who knew how to fight and was killed (Lutz and Grievous). Both underlings I listed above were killed in the presence of their master. Both army's were beaten at a battle that happened at the end of the movies' second editions (Helm's Deep and Genosis). Both enlisted the aid of a different species to help them (orcs and genosisians).

I could do more but that should do it. I'm sure RO could add on to the list.

Sweet!

Lucas, you're one sly dude.

I can't believe this one I just thought of!

Frodo = Luke: Both coming out of humble beginnings...one a shire country town, the other a farm, and they go on to be the saviours of the world/universe.

Plus, both...missing parents. Frodo was raised by Bilbo (whom he thought was his uncle)...and of course Luke with Uncle Owen.

Wowee!

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Let me think:Both tried to convince the one they captured to join them (Kenobi/Gandalf).

That one's a beaut!

The funny thing is too, I don't think we're even strethhing it yet.

This is just kinda revealing how much of a Tolkein nut Lucas actually was.

Saruman was the head of the White Council whereas Dooku was the head of the Confederacy of Independant Systems. Both of their masters betrayed them - Sidous sought to replace Dooku with Anakin whereas Sauron didnt send any of his near limitless army to help Saruman.

I think ESB covered the rest of them.

Take Dune and LOTR, add a snuff of Lucas and bingo: you got SW.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Both planned to betray their master.

When did Dooku plan to betray Sidious? He was Sidious' b1tch...sorry Ox, . But no, he never expressed the notion to overthrow him, that i'm aware of at least.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
When did Dooku plan to betray Sidious? He was Sidious' b1tch...sorry Ox, . But no, he never expressed the notion to overthrow him, that i'm aware of at least.


Had Obi-Wan joined Dooku in AOTC, Dooku would have definitely tried to overthrow Sidious. Remember, he ratted out out Sidious to Obi-Wan without hesitation when he told him pretty much everything that was going on with the Seante. It's the Sith way. The same way Vader was trying to get Luke to help him overthrow Sidious.

oh, i figured he was doing that whole "best place to hide something is right in front of you" thing, where he would tell him, but not expect him to believe him. Cause he also failed to mention that he was a Sith, and he also said that QGJ would have joined him, had he known the "truth", which i think we all know wouldnt have happened. Besides, it would have all for not anyway, Dooku even with Ob1, couldn't have overthrown Sidious. But if thats what he was referring to, then cool, my bad.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
oh, i figured he was doing that whole "best place to hide something is right in front of you" thing, where he would tell him, but not expect him to believe him. Cause he also failed to mention that he was a Sith, and he also said that QGJ would have joined him, had he known the "truth", which i think we all know wouldnt have happened. Besides, it would have all for not anyway, Dooku even with Ob1, couldn't have overthrown Sidious. But if thats what he was referring to, then cool, my bad.


I think, just like Sidious to Anakin, Dooku would have eventually revealed his "Sithness" to Obi-Wan. I agree that they would not have been able to overthrow him, but they would have been willing to try, I guess.

As far as his mention of Qui-Gon, I think he used that just to help lure Obi-Wan to his side.... even though, i think there was more to Qui-Gon than we were shown.

MR lee played an outstanding Saruman in LOTR i wish he never starred in sw coz hes too famouse .

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
When did Dooku plan to betray Sidious? He was Sidious' b1tch...sorry Ox, . But no, he never expressed the notion to overthrow him, that i'm aware of at least.

Dooku told Obi-Wan that the senate was being controlled by a Sith Lord named Darth Sidious, Dooku asked Obi-Wan to join him in order to defeat this Sith Lord, and even tried to manipulate (Qui-Gon stuff) to get Obi-Wan to join him.

Sounds like Dooku wanted to take down Palpatine so he could become number one.

Oh, and you believed Dooku was actually telling the truth?

Originally posted by queeq
Oh, and you believed Dooku was actually telling the truth?

He was.

How do you know?

Originally posted by queeq
How do you know?

It's the story in the movie! LOL

He could still be lying about wanting to betray Sidious.

Every Sith wants to betray their master to become the Sith Master. It's been that way since the dawn of the Sith.

True, but they back up to support their master if things don't go the proper way. Just like Vader.

Hay what about lotr ??

its true its a total rip.............with spacecraft
but no walking from here to there then here then there

Hyperdive solves that problem.

It's not an entire rip, Lucas 'used' a lot of Dune too.

and of course Flash Gordon

Of course, hence the lasers and the spaceships.

and the scrawl

Crawl... yes.

so, you all are saying SW is sort of a rip from LOTR...

so, what do you guys like better?

Hmmm... storywise I think Sw is better, especially the OT. Tolkien's world is better thought through though, it's richer in context and history. But the characters do not undergo very much change.

yep.

Probably because both Lucas and Tolkien were interested in the underpinning elements in storytelling, you have the cliche characters, the orphan/only child who tries to save the world because he has nothing better to do and a truly evil villain.

Not really too intuitive, pretty much every traditional story consists of the same elements.

True, and yet, the two differ greatly in feel, approach and experience.

Definetly, and there is also a fair bit of overlap considering the LOTR films, which obviously borrow alot from the progress Star Wars made, as well as some of the shots, such as the wipe after a scene ends, and vice versa as Lucas would obviously have been influenced by Tolkien's writing.

Yep, and SW borrowed it from old movies.

Great guys...more comparisons actually!

Gonna think of another one...

Wo! How could I not have seen this one...

Oliphaunts = AT-ATs!!

Totally!

Lucas you sly cat!!

Oh yes....

Ewoks=Hobbits

I know which one was written first, but how do you know what visual concept came through first?

What do you mean?

well obviously Star Wars was made first as far as movie form, so how would AT-AT's be biting his large elephant things? Granted you can read a book and try to get a mental picture, but i think more of the "things" we see in LOTR are designed after SW. Maybe thats just me cause i like SW better, lol. But no, do you see what I'm saying?

We were talking about the book.... not the film. It is very clear where KLucas got his inspirations and ideas: LOTR, Dune, Hidden Fortress, Flash Gordon.... That kinda sums it up. Dune wasn't turned into a movie before he made SW, yet he certainly borrowed stuff from it. It's all these things that inspired him when he was young. Dune, LOTR, Flash Gordon were all hot in the 60's. He prolly came across Hidden Fortress in filmschool. He added a bit of 'used future' and presto: SW was born.

(Trash Compactor) "Dianoga" water creature vs. (Hollin's Gate) "The Watcher" water creature

Also both dealt with in the first act, and in similar situations...settings: Surprise attack when occupied doing something else...SW - get out of a place, LOTR - get into a place.

Lucas...shame.

Han = Aragorn

Both key leaders/fighters assisting a protagonist (Luke/Frodo).

Both develop a love relationship with heroin (Leia/Arwen..who in turn both have connections to royalty)

Lucaaaas...come oooon

Wait wait, give the man some credit. All these writers also delved into ancient mythologies...

Oh I got one! Lightsabers and swords!

Come on guys. Give Lucas some credit. Oliphants and the Imperial Walkers? Hobbits and Ewoks? Its not like Lucas sat down with a blank piece of paper and the LOTR trilogy. These stories all have things in common but that's because of the way Lucas wanted Star Wars to be. ANH was a clean-cut, good vs evil story with no gray areas. LOTR was also.

Let's point out somethings that are Star Wars only. Who's the LOTR counterpart for Yoda? Chewbacca? 3PO and R2? Vader?

Yes, there are similarities but you know what they say...Every story that can possibly be told has already been told. Its just how they're told that makes them seem different.

We never said it was copied... we are saying it is clearly INSPIRED.... sometimes he takes thinks fairly literal and sometimes not.

I got one! I got one!

Talking vs........Talking.

The characters in both movies TALK!


...Lucas you knob!

I don't think its so clear as you may. My point is there's similarities because they're both stories of good vs evil. Beyond that its coincidence. There are NO similarities between Luke and Frodo beyond that fact that they're the main protagonist of their respective stories. No similarities between Sidious and Sauron besides being the leaders of the bad guys.

I mean there's lots of, quote-unquote, similarities if you want to really look into it. Orcs to Stormtroopers, the mindless pawns of evil. The Witchking to Vader, the powerful ally of Sauron/Sidious. But honestly, how much of it is reality and how much of it is us just reading too far into it?

I say it's inspired. For instance: Lucas liked the idea of a non-technical people destroying the evil Empire. Since he used wookiees in ANH, he couldn't have them in ROTJ. So he chose a small people, defeating the great powers.That contradiction of a small race living apart in their on secluded place fighting the magnificent powers is something that he my very well have borrowed from LOTR, just like he did in Willow.

Just reminded me of another one...

Orcs - Clone Troopers

There was a creation of a huge army out of bringing things to life...Orcs in Two Towers, and Clones in AOTC.

I honestly don't think something like that is coincidence...just like Oliphnats and AT-ATs. They weren't copied, but were inspiring I think.

Nope, the clones/orcs things sounds pretty legit.

Marxman's gonna kill me (get it?), but I think this one's quite valid.

"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." VS "We begin our story in the year 1401..."

Both stories set a long time from now.

Lucas is a rip off "artist"

Well..... dunno. Lucas took that of basic fairy tale beginnings: "Once upon a time in a kingdom far away..."

So I can't go with that comparison, Lucas always wanted to make a fairy tale space serial. That's where the opening comes from.

No offence EPIIIBITES, but saying that there are similarities between the Star Wars Series and the mythologies of J.R.R. Tolkien is like saying there are similarities (and obviously much more of a connection) between Star Wars and Flash Gordon - its obvious.

In my opinion, it's best not to point out similarities (and perhaps inspirations) from one source to another, because, more often than not, it detaches one from the enjoyment of the said media - you no longer are able to tell what influence came from where, or whether it was original, or borrowed, etc.

But it's nice to discuss...

Never take my posts seriously.

Did I?

Did you?
I was just saying....

seriously?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Just reminded me of another one...

Orcs - Clone Troopers

There was a creation of a huge army out of bringing things to life...Orcs in Two Towers, and Clones in AOTC.


While I dont think this can be accuratey linked as a similarity, I would just like to point out that it was Mr Lee's character that created both armies.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
While I dont think this can be accuratey linked as a similarity, I would just like to point out that it was Mr Lee's character that created both armies. Another thing stolen from Tolkien by Lucas! For shame!

He even steals the actors... Has this man no originality left?

I know, God...he even stole the names OB1 and Darth Vader from some movies made back in the late 70's/early 80's...damn Lucas has no shame!

Worse yet, he even used the EXACT SAME DROIDS from that serial film series.... NO...what's that: EVEN THE TITLE!!!!

The bastard!

I wont be able to sleep tonight because of all of this!

Do you think LOTR would of been better if Steven Spielberg made it? (please ignore my spelling)

offtopic

Originally posted by mith fox
Do you think LOTR would of been better if Steven Spielberg made it? (please ignore my spelling)

Or Lucas?


(I think Jackson did as good a job as it could have been... kudo's for the kiwi)

I agree. I loved LOTR. Jackson did a phenomenal job. I do like the OT better than LOTR but I think I'm slightly biased with that. A lot of people I know like LOTR better than Star Wars, then again those people loved the PT as well.

And that is saying a lot.