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Okay, everybody's probably going to hate me for this, making another thread not only with bane OR Kas;im in it, but both of them!

Alright, here's the gauntlet their going to run, they get full rest after each fight. This is Kas'im abd Bane in their primes from PoD:
1. Darth Maul and Obsession Asajj
2. Depa Billaba and Sora Bulq
3. EU General Grievous and ROTS Obi-Wan
4. ROTS Dooku, Tol Skorr and Sirak
5. Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker (ROTS)
6. Yoda, Cin Drallig (ROTS) and Qui-Gon (TPM)
7. ROTS Sidious, OT Vader and Bastila Shan
8. DE Sidious and Darth Malak
9. NJO Luke and Darth Revan
10. They make it

They DEFINENTLY lose at eight or nine...

They'll make it past 1 for sure, one of them takes Asajj, the other takes Maul, both win at the same time with only a touch of trouble. Bulq and Depa don't offer much more of a challenge but do fare a little betetr against them because of Vaapad. At #3 Kas'im could take Grievous with Soresu, Bane'll take Kenobi with some trouble, but not a lot. Kas'im will be able to at least hold off Dooku until Bane kills Sirak and Skorr (which he'll do with moderate difficulty). Five will be hard, though, and they may stop there - I'd put either of them above Mace, but in a fight Mace could take either of them due to Vaapad. So while Mace defeats one of them after a long duel the other one would likely defeat Anakin, and then lose to Mace, so probably #5. If they make it past here Yoda would surely give either of them a match and probably win, and the other could likely not take both Jinn and Cin (lol, that rhymes!) 2 on 1. But I'll say #5.
And how are they supposed to get past 6 or 7?

They don't make it past 5

2 is just overkill, but if they somehow make it past the Vaapad users, they're definitely going down at 5

What, how is 2 harder than 3 or 4?

Because, there are two Vaapad users in two.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
Because, there are two Vaapad users in two.
So? Vaapad gives you a slight advantage, enough that Sora or Depa could probably take out Maul where they otherwise couldn't, it doesn't make them uber, though, ROTS Kenobi and EU Grievous are betetr than either of them and Dooku would pwn either of them, I honeslty don't see where your getting that they'd be more of a challenge than Dooku, Sirak and Skorr.

Not really sure why the rankings are what they are, but I would say they could lose to Anakin and Mace. If not they'd go down to DE Sidious and Malak. NJO Luke and Revan would own them.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Not really sure why the rankings are what they are, but I would say they could lose to Anakin and Mace. If not they'd go down to DE Sidious and Malak. NJO Luke and Revan would own them.

They lose at 8.

I bump Darth Sexy's post.

Ignoring the idiot Sexyback, they die at five. If by some miracle they make it-which's kinda impossible, Anakin would butcher Kaan and then it's the two of them vs. Kas'im.
Goodbye at six.

Where is Kaan in this fight lightsnake? It's Bane and Kas'im.

Oh, whoops, misread. Ok, then the Jedi still win, albeit with some more difficulty.

1. Darth Maul and Assaj would have no cohesion (they've never met, both use weapons that require a lot of space so it would be hard to work together that way, they both also lack the discipline and mentality to work together), whereas Kas'im and Bane know how eachother fights almost inside out, and both Kas'im and Bane are much better duelists than they are, and they're clearly stronger in the force too. In fact, Bane for one would probably be able to instakill either of them. The duo pwn through this.

2. This will be harder, as both are better than the two characters in 1, but I'm still of the belief that Kas'im and Bane win comfortably, as they are both stronger than either Depa or Sora, and they would work together very cohesively. Again, they win, and comfortably too.

3. Either Kas'im or Bane could instantly defeat General Grievous with the force, and together they pwn Obi-Wan, bad.

4. 3 opponents would prove tricky, but Bane and Kas'im are, again, much better than any of the opponents (maybe not much better than Dooku, but firmly better at least), they win this pretty comfortably.

5. Not much harder then 4, the sith duo win.

6. Not much harder then 4, the sith duo win.

7. Not much harder that the last two, the sith will again, comfortably win.

8. DE Sidious is much better than either Bane or Kas'im, and Malak's not too far behind them. However Kas'im an Bane have cohesion on their side, so while they lose here, only just.

why if 5 harder than 6 or 7? Comparing 5 and 6, Yoda's stronger than Mace, though Mace may fight better because of Vaapad he's still only just better, Cin and Qui-Gon would beat Anakin comfortably, though. Comparing 5 and 7, Sidious is about on par with Mace, I doubt Anakin is stronger than OT Vader and Bastila combined!

Sexyback proves he still has his 'king moron' crown again. The Sith die hard at five.

And Anakin grounds Bastila into the dust. Mace is a better fighter than either Bane or Kas'im and will kill them, then assist Anakin in overwhelming the other.

I agree that they will lose at 5, but Anakin grinding Bastila into dust while dealing with OT Vader? Unlikely, maybe he fights OT Vader one on one while Bastila uses Battle Meditation to turn the tide in OT Vader's favor.

If that's the case, Anakin will simply behead her while she's on the ground not defending herself

Originally posted by darthsith19
Cin and Qui-Gon would beat Anakin comfortably, though.

What kind of shit are you on, DS? Anakin would wipe his ass, inside and out, with Cin Drallig and Qui-Gon Jinn.

We've seen him effortlessly fend off Cin Drallig with one hand (whereas he usually uses two), whilst choking a padawan with the other, and then we find out he kills Drallig, too (obviously).

Qui-Gon lost to Darth Maul in thirty seconds flat. If you take into account that this is Qui-Gon who was fighting at his best in the movie than he had been previously, and had found "a fresh reserve of strength", it's becomes quite apparent that Qui-Gon doesn't hold a candle to duelists like Anakin.

TPM Obi-Wan had been able to anticipate Maul's movements because of his speed, Qui-Gon couldn't. And I wouldn't be hesitant to say that Anakin is almost as fast, if not just as fast as Darth Maul. But, he's also far more skilled and talented with a in regards to dueling prowess, he could kill Qui-Gon with one hand tied behind his back and blindfolded.

Anyways, there is no "comfortable" win by Cin and Jinn, seeing as they wouldn't even stand a snowballs chance in hell. Plus, neither have demonstrated any telekinesis on the level of Anakin, much less dueling skill. Which Anakin trumps them by leagues in (as well as every physical attribute).

yeah....Anakin slaughtered Cin in battle

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. Darth Maul and Obsession Asajj
2. Depa Billaba and Sora Bulq
3. EU General Grievous and ROTS Obi-Wan
4. ROTS Dooku, Tol Skorr and Sirak
5. Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker (ROTS)
6. Yoda, Cin Drallig (ROTS) and Qui-Gon (TPM)
7. ROTS Sidious, OT Vader and Bastila Shan
8. DE Sidious and Darth Malak
9. NJO Luke and Darth Revan
10. They make it

1. If they make it, it'll be tough. Maul has mastered the double bladed saber, similar to how Kas'im has. Maul might be faster and stronger, though. Bane will go down after a tough fight to Asajj, due to her double bladed style. By POD, I'm not sure he's quite there yet... However, Bane and Kas'im could make it.
2. Depa has pure bladework that exceeds Mace's own, and would surprise the forms and patters of Kas'im's style with the ass-kicking power of Vaapad. Sora uses two lightsabers, which Bane can't seem to handle by POD, and uses Vaapad, an unseen and unpredictable style. My money's on the Vaapad characters here.

They most likely lose at two. On their best day with all favorable conditions, the farthest they could realistically go is 5.

Where did all this 'anyone who uses two sabers can pwn Bane' BS come from?
It wasn't just the fact that Bane was up against the dual blades, something which he is unfamiliar with, but also because he was up against fricking Kas'im!
And JJ, no, just no.

Bane has has a few months worth of training, maybe a year. Against Sora Bulq, Bane is up against a far more experienced opponent, who uses two blades and Vaapad. He's fighting in the dark. He won't have the slightest clue how to go about this fight.

Read Shatterpoint. Depa has better pure bladework that Mace, in a style that Kas'im, with all his patterns, has never even heard of. He will, be struggling the entire fight, until Sora comes and helps to finish him off.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
If that's the case, Anakin will simply behead her while she's on the ground not defending herself
And while he's beheading her OT Vader will behead him.

Lets see... Cin was said to be strong enough to take out EU Grievous, who put up a decent fight against Windu, so we know that Cin's one of the top ROTS Jedi. Qui-Gon put up a pretty good fight against Maul and rivals Mace Windu. I don't see Anakin taking them two.

Fighting with one hand isn't necessairly a disadvantage, Vader fights with one hand sometimes in the OT, Dooku fights with one hand alot, fighting with one hand instead of two doesn't say much. And what have we seen? Him block two swings from Drallig in the security cams? And your judging the entire fight off of those 2 seconds? Purr-lease.

he lost that quickly because he didn't have the room his form needed to be at it's best, otherwise he'd have lasted longer, as he lasts longer on Tatioone and then he's fighting Maul at his full strength and he hasn't found a new reserve of strength.

Agreed.

One hand tied behind his back, yeah, but blindfolded? That's alot of speculation, we have no idea how good he is with Force Sight. And then when you add in Cin, who's stronger than EU Grievous, there's no way Anakin can win. We may have never seen Cin do anything but from what Dooku said we know he must be good. I doubt Anakin could take out EU Grievous with any amount of ease.

But Bane was a prodigy among prodigies, his training and experience really doesn't mean much when considering how quickly he progressed, and what he's done with that little training.



Sora might have the advantage with forms, I'll give you that, but Sora hardly possesses the same skills Bane has. And about Vaapad, it really ain't that much different than Juyo when it comes to moves and sequences, the main difference is mental.



I agree that he's completely unfamiliar with Sora's form, but he's still strong enough in the force to anticipate Sora's moves, and that's all that Bane needs to do - anticipate the unfamiliar moves with the force. Sure, he was hardly able to do it against Kas'im, but Sora's no Kas'im; Kas'im mastered all 7 forms, and is much more skilled.

Also, given how aggressive Bane is, he'll likely put him on the defensive right away, and quickly overwhelm him with his superior skill and strength. Sora's unfamiliar style will mean jack if Bane doesn't allow him to use it.



1. How great a fighter's technique means little in lightsaber duels, when considering how fast someone is, how physically strong they are, how strong they are with the force, etc...

2. Mace was likely a Depa fanboy; he had trained her and she was like a daughter to him.



Again, Vaapad isn't that much different to Juyo in terms of moves and sequences. And just to remind people, in terms of moves and sequences, what Mace did to Juyo, Kas'im did to all 7 forms. He also switched up between these forms, giving him a far more unorthodox style than fricking Vaapad.

Really, Bane and Kas'im would annihilate the duo.

Really....no. Vaapad's quite different in Juyo in style and ability

Originally posted by darthsith19
And while he's beheading her OT Vader will behead him.
If he can move fast enough

anakin killed Cin with no effort.

you neglect that Anakin always uses two hands and while he was using one, the other was choking the life out of another Jedi

Hardly. Cin was slaughtered despite his best efforts, accept it

I find it hard to believe Mace would comfortably beat Kas'im, if he beats him at all.

Why? Mace's shown more skill, more abilities, the shatterpoint, better force usage, not to mention vaapad, which is a major disadvantage for Kas'im

Technically speaking, Kas'im is easily the greatest ever. He mastered all 7 forms (for all primary arts of the saber), and then spent decades improving them.

Physically, he's incredible, going by his descriptions in PoD.

His reflexes are off the scales.

He's also very strong in the force, given that he could defend against an attack that 'had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid', and using the force to defend yourself is hardly a trait of the darkside.

In lightsaber combat? On paper, probably. But Jaina's (?) accounts of Luke in the Unifying Force are much more impressive than that of Kas'im or Bane. And this was against the Yuuzhan Vong - absolutely fierce melee fighters who are resistent to the attacks of the Force.

Man, I wish they would make the NJO in comic book format, can't be bothered to read all 20 books lol.

No point in reading the NJO. The synopsis in Wookiepedia is more thrilling than the actual books.

I got up to the one with Chewbacca's funeral, and I just got real bored after that.

have you seen Luke;s skill or description, Sexyback's? Or Mace's? Or Yoda's? Apparently not

Well the movies were good enough for me regarding Mace and Yoda, and I just happen to find Kas'im greater, based on his descriptions. Perhaps if they had never made the movies, and SW was all about books and comics, I might rate the movie characters higher, but because of the movies, I just don't.

Damn EU.

Mace may have shatterpoint but Kas'im's saber knowledge exceeds Yoda. Not saying he's more powerful than Yoda but if Mace cannot defeat Yoda in saber combat, what makes you think he can defeat someone with more saber knowledge?

I actually do think Kas'im is more powerful, based on how great a duelist he is, and it's not like he's too shabby with the force either.

You also think Freedon Nadd's the Chosen One. Saber combat does not equal strength and Mace's own descriptions are a bit higher than Kas's own

Originally posted by darthsith19
Lets see... Cin was said to be strong enough to take out EU Grievous, who put up a decent fight against Windu, so we know that Cin's one of the top ROTS Jedi.

We also know that by the fact Anakin was already manhandling a padawan with one hand, and using the other to fight Cin Drallig, that his skills are nowhere remotely close to Anakin's own.

And he was said to be strong enough to take out Grievous? In regards to purely ightsaber combat? Or overall combat? ? Oh, wait. Nevermind, seeing as it matters not due to the fact that it wasn't actually confirmed by an omniscient narrator. In any case, we also need to take a look at another comment Count Dooku makes in regards to General Grievous in the same passage:

"But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters"

Now, here Tyranus is making a generalization that "any" of the Council members will give Grievous trouble, and that's just taking the explanation as its least conventional meaning. It more or less means he'd probably be beaten. However, we see on two occasions, Grievous handles Council members:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2940/grievouspwnsadi2qw8.th.jpg

Oops! There goes that. We also see him fend off Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, two of the Council, along with several other Jedi (including Aayla Secura). He handles the former with great ease, and the latter with minimal difficulty given the number. It's quite obvious that we can't take the Count's words in that regard as literally meaning Cin would defeat him, or is stronger than him. We also hear Count Dooku reprimand Grievous for using "power moves", following that he makes the statement regarding Drallig and the others, and then goes on to say that he needs to use "finesse" in his movements. So, it can be said that Dooku was only trying to get Grievous to be on top of his game completely for facing the Jedi, not that Cin is necessarily stronger.

Also, regardless of him knowing both characters, it's a stretch to say that he can beat him solely based on his words alone. If we count this, then Mace Windu and the B-Team (sounds like a band, eh?) are better than Yoda and Obi-Wan and the Count claiming to be "more powerful than any Jedi" is correct.

Even so, it doesn't really matter if he can defeat him or not. Seeing as it can be easily deduced Anakin can fight with one hand whilst gripping another, struggling being, and still beat Cin. As well, I'd like to see where Count Dooku says Cin can best him with minimal difficulty, because if he can beat him in lightsaber combat, it'll probably be a practical stalemate. Or, at least, no easy task.



Correction: Qui-Gon got owned in single combat against Darth Maul. As for that quote that's supposedly in the TPM novel, give me the exact quote and/or page number. Seeing as I've just searched through the e-book, and see no mention, I'd like to know exactly what to search for. So, prove up.

Anyways, sorry, but I don't argue against statements that are twisted or vague. Even if the quote exists, "rivals Mace Windu" to the common reader or someone who had no idea what the hell you were touting off (as par) would take that as RotS Windu, who would kick the ever living shit out of Qui-Gon. If it exists, it's only referring to TPM Mace Windu, who we have no idea how good he is.

"Put up a pretty good fight"? Did you even watch the same movie as I - and the rest of the world - did?

As soon as the energy rays allow passage, Qui-Gon attacks and is owned in 30 seconds. That's not a "pretty good fight" by any stretch of the word. And, we take into account two other important factors about that scene, from the script and novel:

"When the wall between QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL opens, QUI-GON is in a split second fighting the DARK LORD with a ferocity not seen before.

He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity"

He was clearly fighting at the best to his ability and seemingly revitalized, yet he still got demolished. It was no contest, and the Tatooine scene in the novelization (just omniscient words comparing them) proves that Qui-Gon cannot compete with Darth Maul. If you'd like, I can produce them all for the purpose of this particular segment of the debate.



Then take off the blindfold, and equip your super spectacles as you obviously don't have a clue what you're talking about.



Did I actually outright say it was? No, I don't recall me doing such. Although, I will say now that it is a disadvantage in this case, for two reason:

1. Anakin's full strength, and speed in his swings would be diminished given that two handed combat is obviously more powerful than one in terms of strength. And the swings would generate more velocity, too.

2. He had his other hand in use to choke a padawan, whereas the likes of Darth Vader and Count Dooku haven't been shown to do this. She would be struggling obviously (unless this was a mutant Human, who doesn't respond to having their airway blocked and gripped), and thus a distraction and the like. It's definitely a hinder in a duel, to deny something like that is purely ludicrous.



Wow, they are also well versed in the area. Makashi is practically made for one handed usage, and Darth Vader has Makashi intertwined in his form, from what I've heard.

In any case, prove Anakin was as adept at using one hand as he was two. You'll find it's hard, nigh impossible. So, I'll use the default of skepticism and assume he's not as good (which is logical anyways).



Neither does your rebuttal.



"Purr-lease"? Whatever, Garfield.

To get to the point, I'm deducing (something you probably don't understand based on your posts), that it wasn't much of a challenge, if any. And furthermore, watching that scene over, we see Anakin block a strike from the padawan, and then simultaneously blocking a strike from Cin Drallig, and grabbing the padawan by the throat, then blocking a couple more shots.

If Darth Vader was confident enough in his ability to do such (and he had reason, seeing as he killed him), it can be easily said that he was hardly any difficulty, if any.



ORLY?

Prove up then. Why is Obi-Wan, who also used Ataru, able to keep up with Darth Maul?



Wow, unsupported assumption much?

He lasts longer on Tatooine for one simple reason, and it's not because of "more room". Darth Maul only uses one blade on his lightsaber, instead of his usual two, by the way. Which we can obviously assume he is better at. What we also know is that Darth Maul was only testing him, yet Qui-Gon almost died from a heart attack due to the fact Darth Maul was that much better at that point (and Anakin, is in turn, that much better than Darth Maul):

"He had barely escaped with his life, and the thought was worrisome. His opponent was strong and had tested him severely." (The Phantom Menace, Ch. 22)

He's only being tested, yet almost dies from exertion, and is as tired as a mule after walking the Oregon Trail straight through. If you want, I can post more excerpts of the Tatooine battle that show Darth Maul as being the superior by lightyears, and that Qui-Gon would've stood no chance had he been going all out. Nice that you don't include all the facts yet again, but don't worry - I don't let that type of bullshit pass for fact.

QED.



On Tatooine? Are you a retard? He didn't need to find "a new reserve of strength" because he was already in peak condition, I'd assume. That whole strength bit was about Qui-Gon tiring out, and then revitalizing himself to the point where he's fighting at his best ever shown in the movie.

If you weren't referring to Tatooine (what else would you be, though?), then disregard the "retard" question.



If a neophyte farmboy, with absolutely no training whatsoever with either a lightsaber or the Force ever in his entire life was able to block some blaster bolts from even a remote droid, someone like Anakin Skywalker can take down Qui-Gon, I'm sure. The difference in abilities and physical attributes is that much greater.

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."

Damn, pwnage...

Well there's no need for the insults, Darth Sith was being perfectly civil.

Are you talking about Advent, or me? I am only stating what Advent just posted, which proved Darth wrong in many ways, and plus with the insults, it perfectly fits the definition of pwnage.

They definately make it to at least 5.

PErhaps. But that's it

They make it to DE Sidious and Darth Malak. This is Bane with Orbalisks?

Otay, WTF is this about Anakin being on the gauntlet?

*Hits everybody over the head with a metal crowbar*

There, now PLEASE NOTICE THAT IT MENTIONS ANAKIN IN THE OPPONENT'S BOX OF TWO OF THE TIERS!! NOWHERE ELSE! AND MOST CERTAINLY NOT ON THE CHALLENGER's SIDE!!!! EVERYBODY, ON THE COUNT OF THREE, heads out of your butts NOW!!!!!!!

There, now was that so bad?

OK, as for my perspective, if they survive the Mace-Annie double combo, they fall at Yoda's team.

Due to the ambiguous nature of the Jedi's ranking system (at least as far as I know) it is either going to be Cin or Qui-Gon who is going to be the weakest link here.

Qui-Gon likely has the advantage of experience (read the Jedi Quest books for a good idea about what he went through), though he is past his prime.

Cin; the only sources we have on him is that he is in charge of a lot of saber practicees, as he is the (I think this is his rank) the Battlemaster (no mean feat by any means), and that he is a Nimian master (akin to being the largest metropolitan police department in Poland of 1939 when either the Wehrmact, the Red Army, the Slovak army, a combination of which, or all three, are banging on your door). I cannot positivly decide which.

I do know that Yoda gave Sids a run for his money, and though I doubt that Sids is the strongest force user that ever lived, giving the fate of the "arresting detachment" om Episode III, I am willing to bet that that is no mean feat. If Bane or Kas'im cannot eliminate the lesser two quickly enough, somebody is going to die from having a minute green lightsaber coming out of their ribs.

Likewise, if they try to split up, the one trying to hold off Yoda is going to be VERY heavily pressed from the first second. And if he bites it, it is suddenly anywhere from 2-3 versues one. And if they try to team up against Yoda, than the other two are more than smart enough to begin to play Lightsaber Xylophone on their ribs.

And if by the stroke of devine that they get the other two out of the way before Yoda gets to them, I would say Yoda. Not by a very confortable margin by any idea of the word, but he does.

And if by some chance they come out on top, than the Blitzkreig of Bastila, Vader, and Palpatine will leave them looking like a tree that was in the center of a Napoleonic Fusilade duel.

Originally posted by zephiel7
They make it to DE Sidious and Darth Malak. This is Bane with Orbalisks?

Give your ****ing fanboyism a rest. Every point you have raised on this subject was shot down and this is getting just disgusting.

They cannot beat Mace and Yoda. GET THE HELL OVER IT