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This is (OT) Vader and he will face the below mentioned Star Wars characters.

NOTE: He will get one hour rest between each match to heal his wounds.

A few things about OT Vader:

- He has great Strength and strong Body Armour.
- His mastery in Force is very good. His abilities include: Force Wave, Force Grip, Force Choke, Force Crush, Force Dissipation and Telekinesis.
- He uses Djem So and even Dun Moch in his fights.
- He is sadly vulnerable to Force Lightning.

Now the enemies are:

1- Bastilla Shan (KOTOR) Note: This is Sith Bastilla.
2- Count Dooku (ROTS)
3- Lord Kas'im (POD)
4- Darth Malak (KOTOR) Note: This is Star Forge enhanced Malak.
5- Exar Kun (KOTOR)
6- Darth Bane (POD)
7- Darth Revan (KOTOR @ DLOTS)
8- Darth Traya (KOTOR II) Note: She has instakill ability.
9- Darth Sidious (DE)
10- He is the most powerful Sith Lord ever and will defeat all of the mentioned enemies.

Now I have put some tough combatants in this fight to see that how strong people consider OT Vader to be. And make sure that he gets 1 hour rest to heal his wounds between each match.

Discussions are allowed.

Question: Also if all enemies are not allowed to use Force Ligntning, how higher will he go in the metioned List?

He doesn't get past 1, Bastilla is quite obviously a better saber duelist, and is stronger with the force.

Bastila Shan is weaker than Maul. Vader defeated Maul. And even then, Bastila's not too impressive with the lightsaber compared to Vader (taking on 8 Jedi with a month's experience) and Vader easily better with the Force. Vader will probably lose at #4, as SF Malak is as powerful as Sidious easily.

Sf Malak as storng as Palpatine? Umm....no.

Vader also slaughters Bastila

I think he meant as strong as ROTS Sidious.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Bastila Shan is weaker than Maul. Vader defeated Maul. And even then, Bastila's not too impressive with the lightsaber compared to Vader (taking on 8 Jedi with a month's experience) and Vader easily better with the Force. Vader will probably lose at #4, as SF Malak is as powerful as Sidious easily.

Bastila has force lightning though.

Vader has a lightsaber. He can block lightning easily with it.

But Bastilla is very strong with the force, and Vader ain't too quick with moving his saber.

Originally posted by Sexyback
He doesn't get past 1, Bastilla is quite obviously a better saber duelist, and is stronger with the force.
I agree that he might fall at one, but if he makes it past one then he falls at 2 for sure. Even all the people who say Vader > Dooku have gotta admit that after fighting Bastila he'll be to tired to coupe with the man who once put up a good fight against Yoda.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I agree that he might fall at one, but if he makes it past one then he falls at 2 for sure. Even all the people who say Vader > Dooku have gotta admit that after fighting Bastila he'll be to tired to coupe with the man who once put up a good fight against Yoda.
No! he will get one hour rest after each fight to heal his wounds.

This is not constant combat.

Now decide?

Bastila wouldn't give Vader any problems.

Right, the same force prodigy who was able to instantly stun two powerful jedi, force persuade a fricking HUTT, and turn the tide of a war with Battle Meditation almost instantly! Whoops, sorry, you fail! (Look! I did it again, it's not nice is it?)

Moron, Battle meditation means absolutely shit in a one on one. And OMG, she can stun Jedi! Why, she might be as powerful as Juhani! A force persuade a hutt?
Prove it, liar. Gameplay is N-canon and Hutts are naturally immune.

B1tch, you miss the point. The fact that her battle meditation was so incredible for someone so young is testament to her strength in the force being incredible.



The fact that she was able to stun both, instantly, speaks volumes.



It's from a cutscene, not gameplay, and it's perfectly canon.

Wow, Battle meditation, having no bearing on her combat prowess. Wow. That's like saying Thrawn is a great warrior. And oooh, look who's getting pissy

Wow, she can stun two people instantly! Wait...powerful? Huh? Didn't Juhani do the same thing? Yeah, real great.

Once again: Liar, gameplay is N-canon and the cutscene is dependent on gameplay

Honestly, Vader can block some shitty Lightning from Bastila. He's a much better lightsaber user and a very strong Force user.

Again Darth Malak himself is probably just a bit lesser than Count Dooku. With the Star Forge powering him up, he probably is on par with Sidious, who Vader is lesser to.

However, if Vader can beat him, then he loses at 5. Or if not 5, then definately 7.

1. I didn't realise strength with the force has no bearing on her combat prowess.

And I don't recall Thrawn being adept at BM..

And me pissy? Coming from Mr 'You're a pathetic little fanboy that's pathetic and you're not wanted around here because you're pathetic and you deserve no respect because you're pathetic and did I mention that you're pathetic?'... Please, Lightsnake, please.

2. I don't recall Juhani doing the same thing, and if so, then that's great for her, doesn't downplay the feat or anything.

3. The cutscene is not dependant on gameplay, it has to happen no matter what.

1. Battle meditation has none, moron.

2. Yep. You're a pissy little dolt's all.
3. when you first meet Juhani....hell, Bastila's even there.
4. What cutscene is this, I'm curious? What hutt do we meet in KOTOR?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
1- Bastilla Shan (KOTOR) Note: This is Sith Bastilla.
2- Count Dooku (ROTS)
3- Lord Kas'im (POD)
4- Darth Malak (KOTOR) Note: This is Star Forge enhanced Malak.
5- Exar Kun (KOTOR)
6- Darth Bane (POD)
7- Darth Revan (KOTOR @ DLOTS)
8- Darth Traya (KOTOR II) Note: She has instakill ability.
9- Darth Sidious (DE)
10- He is the most powerful Sith Lord ever and will defeat all of the mentioned enemies.

1- She's not that far above average. Vader beats her down.
2- Tough fight for Vader, but, ultimately he has every advantage. The best form against Makashi, armor that can block weak lightsaber blows (like those from Makashi). He knows exactly what Dooku is capable of, and will beat him.
3- Vader wins. He could hold him off in melee long enough to get away from him and then beat him with never-ending force assaults. Also, Vader doesn't shit his pants the moment he sees two blades, like Bane did.
4- What kind of powerups does the Star Forge give Malak? Anyway, if Revan can beat Malak, I bet Vader can too, seeing as how Vader is 80% of Sidious. (Note: Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord in history by the time of TPM. Vader is 80% of him after he has spent an additional 3 and a half decades of "thoroughly dedacat himself to the study of the dark side of the force," with unlimited resources.)
5- Not sure. If Vader has holes in his armor, then, he could go down, I suppose. But, then again, there is a quote that says by a creator of Kun, that Yoda is "Far above" Kun. Also, there are arguments that you could realistically say that Kun is worse than Dooku... Vader very well could win.
6- POD Bane? Vader. (See Darth Malak) Vader is simply more impressive than Bane, especially at this point.
7- Vader will probably be too hurt to beat a solid contender like Revan after all these fights. Although, it could be a possibility...
8- If instakill works against Vader, then , well, it's over for good. If not, Vader kills her in two swings.
9- Most likely dead by now. But, if he manages to limp his way to the finish. He is smushed here.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Battle meditation has none, moron.

2. Yep. You're a pissy little dolt's all.
3. when you first meet Juhani....hell, Bastila's even there.
4. What cutscene is this, I'm curious? What hutt do we meet in KOTOR?

1. You're full of crap, battle meditation is a force power, how considerable it is has everything to so with strength with the force.

3. Wasn't Bastilla with the council mambers at the time? And who does Juhani stun?

4. My bad, I meant game dialogue. And it's Motta, the one in Tatooine, IIRC.

1. Wow. If someone's good at healing, does that make them a good offensive user?
2. IT's optionable, but if you can use the whole Hutt thing...
3. Right, like you even have to meet Motta.....Oh, don't recall mind tricking him. In fact, you can just threaten him with Canderous

1. It speaks for strength in the force, whether it's applied offesnively or defensively is irrelavent.

2. If it's optional, it ain't canon...

3. It might not be Motta.

Bastila is pretty powerful with Battle Meditation. That being said, one so uber in it could easily defeat Exar Kun is saber combat, Sidious in Force lightning and Vader in one on one combat.

Riiiight.......

She'd lose to him, nuff said.

The sarcasm is very unnecessary, Tangible Dog.

1. Which means nothing to combat. Isn't power ambiguous?
2. Just like the hutt bit.
3. Mmmhmm

Unnecessary, yet better than childish (and obvious) name rearranging, Bexysack.

Stupid ain't it?

1. That just doesn't make sense Lightsnake, I expect better from you.
2. No.
3. You say that a lot...

And Tango, that makes sense..

Guys, lets not bash. Anyway, Bastilla is nothing special. She had a gift for Battle Meditation, that one particular ability (Like Mace Windu's Shatterpoint, only, it doesn't help in single combat at all). Otherwise, she is just above average padawan level.

She also needed her ass saved by the common thugs that beat her up.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Guys, lets not bash. Anyway, Bastilla is nothing special. She had a gift for Battle Meditation, that one particular ability (Like Mace Windu's Shatterpoint, only, it doesn't help in single combat at all). Otherwise, she is just above average padawan level.

She also needed her ass saved by the common thugs that beat her up.

Well TrouserSnake started it, and he was much worse.

1. Proof that all she has is one gift? Your argument is very fallacious; you're saying that because she only ever performed one feat that was impressive, said feat is the only impressive thing she can do. This is very faulty, especially when we actually have proof that she can do other impressive stuff, such as force persuading a Hutt, instantly stunning two powerful jedi, etc...

2. She had just crashlanded on Taris, and she not only lost her lightsaber, but also was likely very weakened (given both Revan and Carth were knocked out from there's). And by the time she would have likely regained her strength, they had put her in a cage that suppresses her force powers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No! he will get one hour rest after each fight to heal his wounds.

This is not constant combat.

Now decide?
One hour will not be enough rest for him to be able to beat Dooku.

Wasn't it stated maybe a million times that she has a gift for it? It never said anything about her being great, or showed us anything that impressive.

Planet, you yourself has said many times that ones power in the force has no bearing on combat prowess, especially when referring to Vader and Sidious, now you want to switch up your stance. Which one is it? And if that is the case, then Jacen should be near the top being he's the only one who can do the flow walk, right?

From the Star Wars Databank:

Shan was gifted in art of Jedi Battle Meditation, a rare ability usually only accessible to the most skilled and wizened Jedi Masters. Through sheer force of will, she could influence the course of massive battles. She could bolster the courage of one side of a battle, while draining the resolve of another. It is an exhausting feat, but Bastila proved extremely valuable in crucial engagements during Darth Malak's campaigns against the Republic.

While she was gifted Jollyjim, she was really powerful in its use. She was able to have the Star Forge pwn all the Republic's Capitol Ships. However, when she abandoned the Forge, the Republic Fleet blasted the Dark Side forge to hell.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Planet, you yourself has said many times that ones power in the force has no bearing on combat prowess, especially when referring to Vader and Sidious, now you want to switch up your stance. Which one is it? And if that is the case, then Jacen should be near the top being he's the only one who can do the flow walk, right?

I never said that Subjekt, though I think I know what you're talking about, as we had quite a long debate on it, and what I was saying was that strength in the force has no relation to innate saber ability. Obviously it can improve one's combat prowess, to deny that is crazy.

but saber ability is combat prowess, or at least a large portion of it, which would still place Vader pretty high on the pecking order. He's extremely intelligent, incredibly strong, and calm and collected, which aids in his combat abilities. Can we say everyone else is that calm and in control? Most likely not, at least not the Sith.

He falls at two.

Even if he didnt have a tough battle before hand and was at full power he would still fall at two.

Don't even bring it up Ox .......

Dooku sucks, get over it, he passes him by. If Dooku was at 8 and some one else at two, I'd bet you'd say he'd lose at 8. That debate was never settled and this will only re spark it and cause some other noob to come in and start yet another thread about it.

Im not going to sit here and let all of you Vader lovers say that Vader will beat Dooku when quite simply he wont. Especially after he has already just fought a powerful opponent and only has an hour of rest. Sorry.

An hour or rest is pretty good.....I mean, Shan is not going to be too tough at all.

Im not saying that the hour of rest wont help, but it will still give Dooku the necessary advantage (not that I feel he needs it).

Dooku would decimate Vader.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Dooku would decimate Vader.
QFT.

I will give a hint about Bastilla's power.

Sith Bastilla + Sith Bastilla + Sith Bastilla + Sith Batilla < Revan.

Fight on the Star Forge shows this.

Note: This does not means that Bastilla was weak. She "Force-Waved" the asses of 3 powerful Jedi (including Revan) on the Rakatan Temple, which shows that she can use her mastery in Force to give her edge in combat when needed.

And she has done some impressive things in her life, which shows that she was a powerful Jedi.

But I am comparing her to Revan in one-on-one scenario who is among the TOP 5 Jedi of all times.

Again, Vader is 80% of Sidious, the most powerful sith ever(as lightsnake put it). I would think he has little difficulty with Bastilla.

Dooku should definitely be higher up on the list, but, Vader just has a bunch of advantages.

He has more raw power in the force, and about as much experience (what he lacks in years he makes up for in intensity. Anything that The Empire needed done that required a powerful individual that they wouldn't trust to the likes of a bounty hunter, Vader was there).

He also, has a few specific advantages:

Form V: Best against Makashi.
Physical strength: Incredible strength and a form that plays off that,
Armor: That deflects weak blows of Makashi.
Knowledge of Dooku.

I can elaborate or quote one of my unfortunately numerous old posts like this if you want.

Also:
He is great with just his hands, from deflecting bolts to punching!:
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=75&page=070
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=002 -> http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=003
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=043
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=044
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=128
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=129
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=134
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=077
In ESB, he reflected a bolt back with his hands.

He has some great TK abilities:
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=75&page=079
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=75&page=080
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=75&page=088
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=064
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=073
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=038
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=120
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=121
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=132
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=85&page=021
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=072
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=079
He bombarded Luke with debris in ESB.
He choked an admiral kilometers away.
He choked a kajabizziolion people.
He pulled Han (and Bobas) gun away.
He ripped apart a tree in RODV that was unaffected by blaster fire.
He controlled his thrown lightsaber even when a Jedi, who was closer to the saber, tried to stop it.

He's great with his lightsaber:
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=75&page=075
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=065
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=071
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=072
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=074
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=083
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=084
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=77&page=085
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=036
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=037
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=039
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=133
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=79&page=135
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=101&page=032
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=101&page=033
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=101&page=034
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=069
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=070
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=071
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=074
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=075
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=152&page=078
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=026
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=128&page=027
He beat Luke in ESB.
He beat Obi Wan.
He owned some padawans in RODV.
He carved through an army of wookiees in RODV in seconds.
He toyed with a pair of experienced Jedi Knights in RODV.

Have I made my point? If not, I'm sure I could find more...

It's quality, not quantity.

Dooku is superior to Anakin in almost every way on paper. Im sure Dooku's list achievements are also much longer than Anakin own. However who won the fight between them? My point is that merits dont always win one a fight.

Quality hmm? Well then as a robot Vader is equal to or better than some of the most powerful force users the star wars galaxy has to offer. As a robot he single handidly took down 7-8 Jedi during their meeting thingy during the purge. Vader is GOOD enough as a robot, don't worry about that.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku is superior to Anakin in almost every way on paper. Im sure Dooku's list achievements are also much longer than Anakin own. However who won the fight between them? My point is that merits dont always win one a fight.

Potential>skill

Wow I don't know what you're expecting Planet, that's more than enough pictoral evidence.

edit.

In all actuality, Kun ought to knock seven shades of shit out of him. Regardless of the previous combatants, he's going down at five.

In terms of saber combat yes, he would most definitely go down at Kun. However, it's unlikely he'd make it past Dooku due to Dooku's superior saber abilities and force lightning.

I didn't include a lot of comics, such as Purge.

What he did in Purge really wasn't that impressive, it's blown completely out of proportion. Of the 8 jedi he faces, they are completely lacking in cohesion, he only actually kills four of them (3 were killed by clones at the end, and one was killed by another jedi), and the jedi that he actually kills all sucked; most of them just ran straight at him with their saber above their head, completely undefended. He also got beat up pretty badly throughout the duel (lost a hand, got part of his helmet chopped off). Really, he doesn't display any skill beyond an average jedi master to be honest.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
He beat Luke in ESB.

I lol'd.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
In all actuality, Kun ought to knock seven shades of shit out of him. Regardless of the previous combatants, he's going down at five.

I agreed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
But I am comparing her to Revan in one-on-one scenario who is among the TOP 5 Jedi of all times.

Revan one of the top five? What about Luke, Yoda, Kyp, Jacen, and Kyle? Or Raynar Thul? And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mace could take him.

Anyway, I doubt that he makes it past 3.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Revan one of the top five? What about Luke, Yoda, Kyp, Jacen, and Kyle? Or Raynar Thul? And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mace could take him.

Anyway, I doubt that he makes it past 3.


Yes, I would compare Revan to Yoda, Kyp, Jacen, and Kyle. POD pretty much built a legacy for Revan's knowledge and power, so Revan COULD be compared to those. Raynar Thul? Please.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Raynar Thul? Please.

Haha.

Vader wouldstop at kun due to "teh" amulet blasts and lightsaber duel and even if he some how gets past kun revan would beat him.

Just a question, Isnt SF malak only powered on the star forge?

I cant reply until the end of the week so dont expect one soon

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Revan one of the top five? What about Luke, Yoda, Kyp, Jacen, and Kyle? Or Raynar Thul? And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mace could take him.
Revan deserves such high position.

The top 5 Jedi (in my opinion are) are: Luke, Jacen, Yoda, Revan and Kyp.

But Raynar is a lot stronger than Revan, so Revan's not part of the top five.

Yes, I would compare Revan to Yoda, Kyp, Jacen, and Kyle. POD pretty much built a legacy for Revan's knowledge and power, so Revan COULD be compared to those. Raynar Thul? Please.

Raynar sent DN Luke flying with a wave of his hand in The Swarm War . Revan wouldn't stand a chance against him.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
But Raynar is a lot stronger than Revan, so Revan's not part of the top five.

Yes, I would compare Revan to Yoda, Kyp, Jacen, and Kyle. POD pretty much built a legacy for Revan's knowledge and power, so Revan COULD be compared to those. Raynar Thul? Please.

Raynar sent DN Luke flying with a wave of his hand in The Swarm War . Revan wouldn't stand a chance against him.


This is your argument? Wow. Kyp also sent Luke flying when Luke tested his potential, I guess Kyp>Luke. Yoda tossed Sidious across the room. Yoda>Sidious.. VERY compelling argument. Oh wait.

LOL pwned!

Originally posted by General Kenobl
LOL pwned!

LOL shutup!

This is your argument? Wow.

Amazed by it's awsomeness, I see.

Kyp also sent Luke flying when Luke tested his potential, I guess Kyp>Luke.

Luke wasn't ready to fight Kyp, now was he? Luke didn't have his defenses up.

Yoda tossed Sidious across the room. Yoda>Sidious.. VERY compelling argument. Oh wait.

Yoda may not be better than Sidious, but at worst he's about equal to him as of ROTS. Thing is that anyone even close to Luke in power would OWN Revan.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
LOL shutup!

This is your argument? Wow.

Amazed by it's awsomeness, I see.

Kyp also sent Luke flying when Luke tested his potential, I guess Kyp>Luke.

Luke wasn't ready to fight Kyp, now was he? Luke didn't have his defenses up.

Yoda tossed Sidious across the room. Yoda>Sidious.. VERY compelling argument. Oh wait.

Yoda may not be better than Sidious, but at worst he's about equal to him as of ROTS. Thing is that anyone even close to Luke in power would OWN Revan.



except raynar is nowhere near Luke's power.

LOL Glentract, it was in the moment and Darth Sexy's arguments seemed superior to yours.

I wouldn't consider somebody Pushing someone to mean any sign of closeness. And it depends on the context. Were Luke and Raynar engaged in combat on a neutral arena and Raynar pulled a successful Wave or what was the scenario?

By that logic Lumiya would shit on Revan too

As for Mr. Thrul

A. That was not Raynar that was Unu and him combined hence

"Raynar Thul vanished with the Crash."

and

"Raynar Thul is no more. We are UnuThul."

B. After the crash the dude is no longer a Jedi so that makes him pretty void from the discussion

C. He was drawing power from all the nests and the dark nest at that point, increasing his force abilities 10 fold.

D. He still got his ass beat by Luke once he got serious.

By that logic Lumiya would shit on Revan too

No, because Luke was distracted and sucker punched by Lumiya. Raynar, however, managed to overpower him.

As for Mr. Thrul

A. That was not Raynar that was Unu and him combined hence

"Raynar Thul vanished with the Crash."

and

"Raynar Thul is no more. We are UnuThul."

He was still a Jedi though and he was still Raynar. He only thought he was different because he had brain damage. You seem to forget that Raynar was insane, so his quotes cannot be taken seriously.

B. After the crash the dude is no longer a Jedi so that makes him pretty void from the discussion

No, he was still a Jedi. That's why Luke called him the Order's responsibility.

C. He was drawing power from all the nests and the dark nest at that point, increasing his force abilities 10 fold.

Exactly. Where his strength came from doesn't matter because it was not incidental power. He could draw on that power whenever he wanted, where ever he wanted, so it counts in a fight.

D. He still got his ass beat by Luke once he got serious.

Are you saying Revan wouldn't get his ass beat too?

Were Luke and Raynar engaged in combat on a neutral arena and Raynar pulled a successful Wave or what was the scenario?

Like I said earlier, Raynar didn't sucker punch Luke, they were engaged in a fight.

They were still engaged in a duel and again by that logic a droideka is a match for Revan since Luke AND Mara stuggled with one.




No, he wasn't.

"Raynar Thul vanished with the Crash." - LUKE SKYWALKER

He was no longer a Jedi. And thus cannot be included in these "who's the most powerful JEDI" debates.





Because of what he once was, Luke took pity on him big f*cking deal. And elt me ask you, Where is Raynar now? Is he on active duty with the Jedi? Is he in prison with a face mask on.




Doesn't he have a mask on currently that prevents him from conntacting the nests.



I'm saying he'd last longer then Raynar did and is stronger then him. Thats what I'm saying., albiet he'd still get his ass beat.



So what. "OMG he Lieka FOrce PusHED Luke!!! he is teh goddd!" Big deal he force pushed somebody and agian once Luke got SERIOUS, he shitted on Raynar remeber the little, "Luke was rooted so strong in the force that not even the BLACK HOLE at the center of the galaxy could budge him"

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
They were still engaged in a duel and again by that logic a droideka is a match for Revan since Luke AND Mara stuggled with one.

No, because Luke and Leia struggling with one is an inconsistency that's overruled by more than a dozen other sources.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No, he wasn't.

"Raynar Thul vanished with the Crash." - LUKE SKYWALKER

He was no longer a Jedi. And thus cannot be included in these "who's the most powerful JEDI" debates.

He was still a Jedi. That's why Luke stated that he was the Jedi Order's fault and that it was their job to stop him. And do you have a page number for you quote? I'd like to see it. It's not because of what he once was, it's because of what he is.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Because of what he once was, Luke took pity on him big f*cking deal. And elt me ask you, Where is Raynar now? Is he on active duty with the Jedi? Is he in prison with a face mask on.

Raynar is actually under care of Cighal as of the third LOTF book and is going to be there for something like five more years.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Doesn't he have a mask on currently that prevents him from conntacting the nests.

As of LOTF, but I meant Raynar at his peak, which would be during the DN books.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
I'm saying he'd last longer then Raynar did and is stronger then him. Thats what I'm saying., albiet he'd still get his ass beat.

Lets see you prove that Revan is stronger than Raynar. And btw, Raynar has done things a whole lot more impressive than Raynar. He could stop the turbolasers headed towards his ship from hitting him, he could mentally dominate almost anyone. Luke was barely able to maintain focus when Raynar pressed his will onto him. Raynar was able to destroy the guns on the Falcon with a flick of his wrist and he was so strong that several of the Jedi in the Order had their doubts about Luke being able to defeat him on his own and wanted Kyp to go with Luke.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
So what. "OMG he Lieka FOrce PusHED Luke!!! he is teh goddd!" Big deal he force pushed somebody and agian once Luke got SERIOUS, he shitted on Raynar remeber the little, "Luke was rooted so strong in the force that not even the BLACK HOLE at the center of the galaxy could budge him"

I'm not arguing on whether or not Raynar could defeat Luke, I'm saying that he's stronger than Revan.

It was Mara, and again the lumiya reference, they were actually dueling it wasn't just luiya came in and hit'em and ran, correct me if I'm wrong.




No, he wasn't at least not the version of him your trying to prove was, while under the influence of the Dark Nest he is no longer his former self at all, thats like saying Ventress who was once a Jedi student is still on even though she has given herself to the Dark Side and isn't in the right frame of mind. Or like Arrura Sing is still a Jedi because she was the "Orders Responsibility" hence why they sent dozens of Jedi to face her. Being the "Orders Responsibility" =/= Being a Jedi. The Sith are the Orders default responsibility to deal with too, I guess they're also Jedi. And as for the page # I don't have to book with me currently, it is however also on Wookie (for whatever thats worth) and they don't tend to lie about quotes.




That isn't Raynar so again your point...



"Raynar has done things a whole lot more impressive than Raynar"

I bet he has! So, he is more powerful then Revan because he has the nests and the Dark Nest to give him power and he's done a few feats? No, Revan has done the whole "overpowering" Jedi's will and actually broke them, at Malachor, And big whoop, he has basically an entire book series dedicated to him of course he's going to have more feats.



The Revan argument, for all that Unu has done Revan is still more impressive, and AGAIN what happened when Luke got serious? HE SHITTED ON HIM.



Yeah basing it on Luke fighting his opponent half heartedly, we've seen when Luke doesn't fight with all his heart/wit into the fight (see Lumiya keeping up with him) And once Luke gets serious he shits on Raynar and lugs his ass back to the Jedi.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
It was Mara, and again the lumiya reference, they were actually dueling it wasn't just luiya came in and hit'em and ran, correct me if I'm wrong.

Whoops. Typo. I meant Mara.

What are you talking about with Lumiya? I was referring to the inconsistency with the Droideka.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No, he wasn't at least not the version of him your trying to prove was, while under the influence of the Dark Nest he is no longer his former self at all, thats like saying Ventress who was once a Jedi student is still on even though she has given herself to the Dark Side and isn't in the right frame of mind. Or like Arrura Sing is still a Jedi because she was the "Orders Responsibility" hence why they sent dozens of Jedi to face her. Being the "Orders Responsibility" =/= Being a Jedi. The Sith are the Orders default responsibility to deal with too, I guess they're also Jedi. And as for the page # I don't have to book with me currently, it is however also on Wookie (for whatever thats worth) and they don't tend to lie about quotes.

Raynar was still a Jedi in the DN books as he was still a lightsider and still believed in the Jedi ways. Him being insane doesn't make him not a Jedi. Joruus was insane, but he was a Dark Jedi still because he used the Darkside and did other things that darksiders do, like dominate others. The Sith and Aurra were fought by the Jedi because they wrought havoc on the Republic. Raynar was not hurting the Republic, so he wouldn't have automatically been the Jedi's responsibility.And your quote comes from someone who was insane.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
That isn't Raynar so again your point...

It is Raynar. Even if it weren't, Raynar as UnuThul fits the definition of a Jedi Lord so would still be a Jedi.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
"Raynar has done things a whole lot more impressive than Raynar"

I bet he has! So, he is more powerful then Revan because he has the nests and the Dark Nest to give him power and he's done a few feats? No, Revan has done the whole "overpowering" Jedi's will and actually broke them, at Malachor, And big whoop, he has basically an entire book series dedicated to him of course he's going to have more feats.

1. It was Malachor that broke their wills, not Revan.

2. Raynar overpowered post-NJO Jedi that are far beyond anyone from Revan's time.

3. It's not that Raynar has more feats, it's that he has better ones. And although he is a major character in the DN books he actually has very little screen time.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
The Revan argument, for all that Unu has done Revan is still more impressive, and AGAIN what happened when Luke got serious? HE SHITTED ON HIM.

Actually, before the end of the fight Luke was stated to be desperate. Name Revan's top three feats and I promise that I can name three by Raynar that are superior.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Yeah basing it on Luke fighting his opponent half heartedly, we've seen when Luke doesn't fight with all his heart/wit into the fight (see Lumiya keeping up with him) And once Luke gets serious he shits on Raynar and lugs his ass back to the Jedi.

Again, Luke was deperate before the end of the fight and Revan wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as Raynar did.

I've no time to answer you big block on Revan right now, so I'll get to it in a few hours.

Luke being pushed by Lumiya in a fight.




He was a lightsider? He may have filled the killiks with his values but he was still being controlled and manipulated by the Dark Nest.



Dark Jedi =/= Jedi, Dark Jedi is the term we fans give to Dark Side characters who use the Dark Side of the force, simply because its easier then typing out Dark Force User. Thus that makes him no longer a Jedi, just because you don't "officially" change your title to Sith Lord doesn't make you not a Jedi anymore...if you no longer follow the Jedi code, YOUR NOT A JEDI. Did Raynar by the end of the Swarm WAR? No. He's not a Jedi.



Uh no...Aurra was a bounty hunter who hunted JEDI, thats no the Republic, and all a Sith Lord would have to do is waltz into a Jedi Temple and say "Hi Ima Sith Lord" and they'd pounce on him with extreme prejudice.




No, this is the Raynar that your posing can beat Revan, the one being manipulated and controlled by the Dark Nest, he was insane and wasn't a Jedi.




A Jedi Lord? You mean something that went out with the Russan Reformations...The Jedi don't do that kind of active domination of governments anymore.




Revan drew the energy up. And the game is riddled with Kreia talking about how Revan could break the will of Jedi, and how Revan could form mass bonds with large people to exploit them.



LOL, there are about 4 Jedi who would be on Revans level, Luke, Kyle, Kyp and Jacen(whom he couldn't control) now unless you wanna try and say controlling LIEA is a big feat then be my guest. The rest...no. Unless your seriously gonna sit here and try to tell me Mara Jade is as strong as Revan. Please, I thought we were all past the NJO cock sucking.



Your opinion

Actually, before the end of the fight Luke was stated to be desperate. Name Revan's top three feats and I promise that I can name three by Raynar that are superior.

Big f*cking whoop, again Luke was desperate against Lumiya, and had to resort to shooting her with a blaster five times.

And I could give two shits on a stick about a stupid feat war (which is what you wanna turn this into)

"Well Revan didn't do feat A, so Raynar is stronger!"

Since you can't quantify how much power it takes to force push Luke when he's not rooting himself to the ground, you really have no point, who's to say Revan, Kyp, Yoda, Mara, or even Ben couldn't do it.




Again you're opinion. And so what, he was desperate...he also knocked the shit out of Unuthrul then proceed to dice up Lomi Plo, And of course he was desperate he was fighting TWO people drawing power from thousands.



Whatever. Revan beating Malak on the Star Forge, while he was being described as near invincible is more impressive then anything Raynar has ever done.

Heres the problem with your argument:

1. This is Unuthrul your talking about NOT Raynar, they were two separate personalities, the Hive Mind was the one doing all your leet feats.

2. UnuThrul gets an unfair advantage in the first place, him being able to draw energy from the hives, and the joiners, who at that time included Lomi Plo, Alema, Jania and other Force Users. Where as his own power is likely MUCH weaker then this.

3. This version of Raynar, Unuthrul, is not a Jedi and is thus void from this discussion of (the most powerful jedi) in the first place

4. Your nutting your pants over a force push, when Luke wasn't fighting seriously, then again what happens when he gets serious...he knocks the shit out of Raynar then dices Lomi into four pieces.

I'd put Mace and definately Yoda on par with Revan, too.

I'd put Mace far above Revan in dueling, with Revan having a slight edge in pure offensive force power, but not much. And I'd put Yoda much better then Revan in both dueling and force.

Revan isnt so bad, hes pimp you know, he has 2 girl friends, exile and bastila and not to forget he is mace windus ancestor lol.

Ok jokes aside, Revan as a lightsider would be problably in the top 10 most powerful force users, hell LS revan > exar kun infact by playing Jedi academy you will actually see later on that the lightside is indeed stronger than the dark

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Raynar was still a Jedi in the DN books as he was still a lightsider and still believed in the Jedi ways. Him being insane doesn't make him not a Jedi.WTF? Last I checked, trying to dominate the minds of fellow Jedi wasn't exactly Jedi protocol. Raynar - who by now has been twisted into UnuThul, and hence is a completely different person with completely different ideals - is not a Jedi as UnuThul, so he shouldn't hold a spot in the top five most powerful Jedi of all time.

There haven't been "Jedi Lords" since Hoth's time, Glentract, and UnuThul doesn't fit that description at all anyway.

Way to take things completely out of context. After Luke finished beating the living crap out of UnuThul, he went on to start pwning Lomi Plo. Thul shot him in the right shoulder from behind, thus paralyzing his weapon hand. Even then, he managed to incapacitate Thul again, before being described as "desperate" when Lomi Plo bears down on him with two lightsabers, when all he has is his weaker left arm to duel with. What happens next? He breaks her leg, gets away, and dices her into quarters. UnuThul isn't even a challenge for him.

See the above.

And for the record - cuz we know how you like to twist things - the first time Luke was hit by a Force-push from Thul, they hadn't yet begun their duel. The maniac just popped out and knocked him down the length of the hallway. But when UnuThul actually got one off in their fight, Luke blocked it without flinching.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'd put Mace and definately Yoda on par with Revan, too.

I agree with this. Yet at the same time we have little knowledge of Revan's saber skills. We know he was the best in the order of tens of thousands but that doesn't say much considering it's very hard to compare two different generations. We know that his force abilities do indeed rival Yoda's.

Originally posted by Kadesh
infact by playing Jedi academy you will actually see later on that the lightside is indeed stronger than the dark

What does Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy have to do with strength in each respective side of the Force? Elaborate, as for your assertion to even begin to be accepted, you must provide some type of reasoning behind it - not just "play JA". Now, as for your actual point, it's...

WRONG!!!

So, there's really no need to elaborate anyways. George Lucas himself has made note that the Dark side is stronger in terms of power, so how can a simple game override his words? Oh, I forgot. It can't. Unlucky for your statements.

Originally posted by George Lucas on AotC DVD Commentary
"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

Now, as I said in a previous post regarding the established fact that the dark side is stronger, if you disregard your destiny (that you will eventually fall), then it's clear the path to power is the dark side.

Yoda is full of shit when talks to Luke or anyone else, so please do not attempt to respond with some more cryptic bullshit he spews, if you respond; which there's actually no reason to. Just for reinforcement, you're wrong.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Bastila Shan is weaker than Maul. Vader defeated Maul. And even then, Bastila's not too impressive with the lightsaber compared to Vader (taking on 8 Jedi with a month's experience) and Vader easily better with the Force. Vader will probably lose at #4, as SF Malak is as powerful as Sidious easily.

Isn't that non-canon

What do you consider non-canon Mizukage?

Alright you win but I think He'd lose at dooku

Vader defeats Dooku. Actually, I take that back. Mizukage, seeing how you registered this month, a couple of monthes we had arguably one of the biggest debates here in the VS Forum. I revived an old thread called Vader vs. Tyrannus where during the Dooku fanboy days, everybody believed Dooku can own all. I thought not, and I wanted to see who would win today, where things are less fanboyish.

The thread became the largest vs thread here, over 1000 posts. In the end, the Vada team provided better arguments and now more people here believe that Vader > Tyrannus. However, this debate will never end...

Dooku'd probably win by virtue of Force lightning. In sheer strength and power, if he did win, it'd be very difficult. Vader is 80% of Sidious. Dooku is not much more than that.

Please, Dooku's Lightning is not even that impressive. I guess any half-ass Sith can own Vader by lightning. Vader can block with his lightsaber or perhaps do a Dissipation or something. He isn't 80% of ROTS or ROTJ Sidious for no reason.

Yeah that worked in ROTJ If Vader could of just blocked it why not take Lukes saber and dissapate it

Umm.....let's see, he had one cut off and needed to throw Sidious away from Luke. I don't he had the hand or energy to block the Lightning bombarding him.

I suppose he couldn't have simply pulled the lightsaber to him and chopped Sidious in half?

He had an arm cut off, was in pain physically and mentally, and it was more impromptu. Besides, I don't think it was that simple.

A neophyte Luke did it while he was hanging upside-down in sub-zero temperatures and boasting a gash across his face. For a Sith Lord who you say could take Dooku, it wouldn't be too hard.

Ok Yeah Uhh OT Vader will get pwned by dooku Who'd Just Hold Vader in the Air as he did Kenobi and electricute his ass

Vader's Force moves are very strong and superior to Dooku's. In the movies, we have never seen Vader go consistenly all out. When Luke hit his arm in ESB, it took Vader seconds to disarm him.

No offence, Faunus, but why are you arguing that? Vader was certainly capable of that - but he didn't do it for a reason. Dramatic necessity.

We know he'd most likely lose to a OT Kenobi going all out so plz Dooku>Vader. Dooku's lighsaber style is focused on one handed combat as a result he could hold vader off with one hand and Blast him with lightning with the other :P

Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
We know he'd most likely lose to a OT Kenobi going all out so plz Dooku>Vader. Dooku's lighsaber style is focused on one handed combat as a result he could hold vader off with one hand and Blast him with lightning with the other :P

a.) Kenobi did go all out.

b.) Dooku's two hands aren't strong enough to fend off Vader's one. Dooku's defense got manhandled by Anakin, and Vader is physically stronger than Anakin as well. Vader'd probably break Dooku's wrist with a two hand assault like that.

Originally posted by Gideon
No offence, Faunus, but why are you arguing that? Vader was certainly capable of that - but he didn't do it for a reason. Dramatic necessity. Because according to GK, he was somehow incapable of doing so.

"He had an arm cut off, was in pain physically and mentally, and it was more impromptu. Besides, I don't think it was that simple."

Really, WTF?

Originally posted by Faunus
Because according to GK, he was somehow incapable of doing so.

"He had an arm cut off, was in pain physically and mentally, and it was more impromptu. Besides, I don't think it was that simple."

Really, WTF?

Then he's wrong. Vader probably forgot all about it, or didn't think to it. If he became Anakin Skywalker again, lol, the rationalization and tactical mind of Vader probably vanished.

Originally posted by Gideon
b.) Dooku's two hands aren't strong enough to fend off Vader's one. Dooku's defense got manhandled by Anakin, and Vader is physically stronger than Anakin as well. Vader'd probably break Dooku's wrist with a two hand assault like that.Eh? Dooku's one hand stopped Obi-Wan's one- and Anakin's two-handed, overhead blows. The guy is a hell of a lot stronger than he's given credit for.

Originally posted by Faunus
Eh? Dooku's one hand stopped Obi-Wan's one- and Anakin's two-handed, overhead blows. The guy is a hell of a lot stronger than he's given credit for.

I know that. I'm pretty much feeling that that is Force assisted. Or an inconsistency - given that Anakin had him on the defensive throughout the latter part of their duel (manhandling his defense). So the question becomes, if he could use the Force to make himself stronger than Anakin or as strong - why didn't it help him there?

Anyways, Vader could always use the Force to augment his own strength, right? Which'd give him an advantage over Dooku - who, despite the occasional burst of incredible strength - is no where near on par with Vader's garguantuan level of physical power.

Edit: Off to a B-ball game. Ttyl Faunus.

Thank you Master Fanus plz accept me as your apprentice

Originally posted by Gideon
I know that. I'm pretty much feeling that that is Force assisted. Or an inconsistency - given that Anakin had him on the defensive throughout the latter part of their duel (manhandling his defense). So the question becomes, if he could use the Force to make himself stronger than Anakin or as strong - why didn't it help him there?"Manhandling?" That would be in the novel, which describes an entirely different fight than what happens in the movie. The real battle has Anakin driving Dooku back, sure, but if gaining ground equates to mandhandling one's defenses, Obi-Wan got manfrigginhandled.

I'm not saying he could outmuscle Vader - you'd be hard-pressed to find someone who can. But he's not simply going to be crushed into submission like some other Jedi were.

Dooku uses Form II called Makashi , which is typically a fencing form that uses a one handed attack to have better saber combat one on one. Thats not really impressive Faunus. Its how he fights.

Dooku is strong yes, he kicked Anakin in the chest several feet away. However Vader fought wild dogs bigger than lions and he lifted a bulked up Rebel Trooper and threw him away like he was nothing.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Dooku uses Form II called Makashi , which is typically a fencing form that uses a one handed attack to have better saber combat one on one. Thats not really impressive Faunus. Its how he fights.This makes no sense whatsoever. How does his form have any bearing on his physical strength? It's not like he outmaneuvered the two, he blocked their strikes head on.

And again, I'm not saying he can outmuscle Vader - but he's not going to be overcome by sheer strength alone.

You wrote Dooku stopped the duo's attack one-handed. He usually fights with one hand, so he's accustomed to block lightsabers with a single hand. If you wish to show Dooku's strength, use the kick he did on Anakin.

Faunus is right. Whether he's "accustomed" or not, it means jack shit.

Just a question, which parry are you talking about Faunus? The first one when they meet Dooku's lightsaber for the first time or the second time where Dooku is between them?

Nevertheless, the point driven to show Dooku's "strength" is not very clear. The better example is when Dooku was flexible enough to Kick Anakin straight in the chest and knock him three feet away.

However, his strength is not much against Vader.

An exaggeration, I suppose, but the novelization is not to be completely discounted - and the obvious situation from the movie was that once Dooku had pissed Anakin off - he could not meet him strength-for-strength. Dooku got kicked off the balcony seconds after disabling Obi-Wan. From then on out, it was Anakin's ballgame. Dooku was very quickly losing ground, and after that disasterous saberlock in which he taunted him, he had no shot in hell.

And, yeah, Obi-Wan did get manhandled. I agree.



Perhaps not. But I don't see him using "one handed strikes" against Vader and attacking him with Force lightning without being cleaved in half. Because, on a good day, Dooku could not physically overpower a regular Vader - and especially when Vader will also be calling on the Force to enhance his strength (at least, he is capable of doing so), I don't see the Count pulling that one off.

The list should be:

1. RotS Count Dooku.
2. Exar Kun.
3. DE Darth Sidious.
4- DL Bastilla Shan.
5- Kas'im.
6- SF Darth Malak.
7- Darth Traya.
8- PoD Darth Bane.
9- Darth Revan.

1. Darth Vader pwns him. He's leagues above him both in the force and with a saber, shouldn't take too long, a simple force crush should suffice, and that's if Vader decides against breaking him like a stick with his bare hands.

2. He'll be in perfect condition to face off against Exar, and I wouldn't say he was leagues above Exar or anything, but I would say that he is a good league above him both with the force and with the saber. He wins, after a slightly long a difficult matchup.

3. He would most likely be slightly fatigued from his fight with Exar, but he would have had a good hour to revitalise himself, he should be in perfect condition (remember how his younger and lesser self was partially able to heal himself from wounds gained from Mustafar!). And really, he faces not much more difficulty with Sidious than he did with Exar, he'll win, and it won't be too tough either.

4. Here's where Vader falls imo; Bastilla's simply too strong in the force, she'd simply just fry his ass like he was a b1tch.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
Just a question, which parry are you talking about Faunus? The first one when they meet Dooku's lightsaber for the first time or the second time where Dooku is between them?In their second engagement, after he mocks Anakin a little more, he blocks both of their overhead strikes simultaneously. There's only one instance of that, lso I shouldn't have to reiterate myself three times.

Fine. If that's what makes you happy.

Originally posted by Gideon
An exaggeration, I suppose, but the novelization is not to be completely discounted - and the obvious situation from the movie was that once Dooku had pissed Anakin off - he could not meet him strength-for-strength.The novelization can be completely disregarded in this scenario, Escape. It describes a completely different battle. Almost nothing in the novel happens in the movie, period.

Dooku only really "lost" when Anakin managed to pull off a smart move and pin his hands. Up until that point, it can't justly be said that he was doomed.

I don't, hence the sarcasm. Giving ground doesn't equate to getting beaten, not at all.

When have I ever said - or even implied - that he could?

Agreed, for the most part. But again, he's not simply going to die as soon as Vader sticks both hands on his saber, not if he fights smart.

edit

Originally posted by HK69
4. Here's where Vader falls imo; Bastilla's simply too strong in the force, she'd simply just fry his ass like he was a b1tch.

LOL

Faunus, you did read the novelization right? According to the novelizationg(describing the fight and not really contradicting the movies), once Anakin fueled his anger, he became too strong for Dooku. So in essence, he lost before that final move where both of his arms were cut off. And yes Obiwan DID get manhandled, I don't know how you couldn't see that.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Faunus, you did read the novelization right?I'd pose the same question to you, as anyone who can see would notice immediately that the novel describes a completely different battle than that which is shown in the movie.

Considering it contradicts the movie the entire time. . .



So no, he didn't. Unless Obi-Wan had lost at the very beginning of the fight, too, against a full-fledged Vader, no less. And unless we watched completely different movies - which, by the looks of it, may be the case - Obi-Wan ended up scattering Anakin's charred ass all over Mustafar.

How the hell does giving ground equate to getting manhandled? If this is the case, Sidious, Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Maul, and Qui-Gon were all "manhandled," alongside every other SW character to engage in melee combat, simply because they gave ground. This shouldn't be that hard to comprehendunderstand.

Oh my bad, I thought you were talking about the fight with Dooku, where Obiwan got manhandled. I didn't read the whole post, my mistake. I also thought you were talking about Dooku vs. Anakin as well.

lmao, you really had me going there.

lol.. My mistake.

Vader would killl anybody that gets in his way

As far as the thoughts of the characters are concerned (which are detailed in the book), the novelization can stand. The omniscient narrator said it best: "Dooku is just dead. The rest is mere detail." That stands, which suffices to say how badly Dooku had screwed himself at this point. Period.



The omniscient narrator in the novelization disagrees with you. Dooku was getting hammered across the General's quarters.



What the hell are you talking about? Against Count Dooku? Yeah, Obi-Wan got manhandled (and I'm talking about Dooku's use of the Force against Obi-Wan's defense). If you're talking about his fight with Anakin, Obi-Wan was on the losing end - which is why he had to give ground. He couldn't withstand Anakin's bombardment without going on the defensive.



You didn't. Did I imply or say that you did? A point was brought up: "well, Dooku specializes in one handed fighting, which means he could keep Vader at bay with one hand and blast him with the other." Which would not work. Dooku - with two hands - would be struggling to overpower Vader in a blade-to-blade confrontation. He won't get the opportunity to do so, because he is physically weaker.



Right. Which is why I said, if Dooku can electrocute him with enough power, he's got this. But in a sheer fight? Vader is 80% of RotJ Sidious. If Dooku is more than that (and I'm not convinced that he is), it's not by much.

I disagree. He didn't get manhandled when Dooku in desperation slammed him with a Force Push. He saw the hand coming forth and performed a strong defense that had him unphased in the end.

Originally posted by General Kenobl
I disagree. He didn't get manhandled when Dooku in desperation slammed him with a Force Push. He saw the hand coming forth and performed a strong defense that had him unphased in the end.

Dude, prove it.

Prove he knew it, and prepared for it. Or, accept what it was. Dooku was not intending to "kill him" but rather - get him out of his way. At that point, Dooku knew he couldn't take them both in a prolonged lightsaber duel. If Dooku were "desperate" it would mean that he was neither focused nor meticulous. Which means all he wanted to do was to get Obi-Wan out of the fight (even temporarily) so he could attempt to handle Anakin. Hence why Dooku's guards magically open fire at that point - to keep Obi-Wan the hell away from Dooku.

Advent and I have been through this with you already. A Force push in itself is not intrinsically damaging to a Force user. It only causes pain or death when that person impacts with something harshly. Obi-Wan lost velocity and fell to the floor. It's not the same as him being battered into a wall.

I'll address your rebuttle (provided you supply one) tommorrow. Cya.

Revan's connection is constantly being described as uber to the maxX7 Right Guard power band. Mater Dorak and Vandar said that Revan has one of the strongest connections to the force they've ever seen.

Who cares what he was called. Anoon Bondara was repeatedly said to be second to none in lightsaber combat, but Maul ripped him to shreds. Dorak and Vandar haven't seen ridiculously power people apparently or Revan never came close to achieving his potential.

His name is synonymous with power. He was called the heart of the force. Ajunta Pal when he looked upon Revan described the power he saw as "blinding". You could literally SEE the force swirling around Revan as Jolee said.

Again, descriptions of power that are probably exagerated aren't proof and cannot be flaunted as such in a discussion. And I'd certainly like to see when Ajunta ever called Revan's power blinding.

He was so powerful in the force not even the combined efforts of the Jedi council could keep his mind suppressed. Revan had such control and power in the force that he literally ripped an entire dialect system out of an entire species head, the proceeded to "force" Basic into the whole races minds. If he could toy with the minds of force sensitives (The Rataka Elders) so easily he could apply the same thing to destroying the brain. The Chronicles describe his dark side power as tremendous.

Here you go again with the vague descriptions. Everyone who is above average is described as having temendous or amazing power with the Force, so that's nothing too special. And how is taking the dialect out of an aliens head supposed to do jack diggity for him in a fight?

Darth Bane himself, literally crapped his pants in fear of the shit Revan knew, He himself was scared of the dark power and rituals Revan had under his command as a Dark Lord, he even said he wouldn't DARE ATTEMPT half the things Revan knew.

And he is exageration on your part. Bane said there were some rituals that he would never attempt, but it was never said to be half or anywhere near that. In addition, Bane is no where near top dog. If someone like Sidious said he would never attempt some of the things that Revan knew it would be amazing. Bane is no where near that level of power.

Vandar describes him as a prodigy, he had more knowledge of the Force:

Being a prodigy doesn't make him part of the top five. Mace, Anakin, Luke, Yoda, ect. could all be described as such.

Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, DARTH REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith - The Chronicles

More exageration. The storehouse on Malachor is no where near the size of a planet. His amount of knowledge has certainly been surpassed by others. Pretty much all Jedi as of the PT and afterwards had access to the Jedi Archives. The Archives are quite likely the single largest storehouse of information on the Force ever created. The NJO Jedi has a copy of the Archives that Luke recoved from the Chu'unthor. And knowing how to make Jedi fall to the Darkside won't help him in a fight.

Revan was the strongest Sith in an order of hundreds, in turn he was the strongest Jedi in an order of hundreds

Luke, Jacen, Kyp, Corran, and Raynar are all stronger than the strongest guy out of an Order of THOUSANDS of Jedi. Yoda was the strongest Jedi to have ever lived up until his death. There are plenty of people who could have filled Revan's role as the strongest of his time in his place.

He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side.

He overpowered and feed on a planet drenched in the dark side a planet so powerful it broke Kreia:

she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. - The Chronicles

And this will help him in a versus fight how?

Revan according to Brianna (The Handmaiden) had the most powerful Battle Precognition the Galaxy had seen to that point, more powerful then the strongest of the Echani who could see MONTHS into the future and see battles before they even happened.

And for all of their strength the Echani never stood a chance against Force users in combat. The Battle Precognition allowed them to see the course of wars and such, but is it beyond Force Precognition? I don't think so. There's a reason that Jedi are the ultimate fighters in the galaxy.

Then we have the fact that in Path of Destruction Revan is mentioned along side Exar Kun and Naga Sadow (they had no idea his feats were done by Amulet and ship) as the most power Sith, as a Sith he has that sort of power and he only gets strogner and strogner as a Jedi.

Why would they have no idea that what Exar and Naga did was influenced by their technology? Have fun explaining that one logically, as I'm sure it will be hard. And guess what, as a Jedi he never gets to a point at which he surpassed Yoda because Yoda is canonically stated to have been the strongest Jedi ever to have lived.

Revan has beaten Malak on the Star Forge twice while he was being described by the databank as near invincible, and subsequently beat Bastila WHILE she was being pumped by the Star Foge FOUR TIMES. He beat Uthar Wynn and Yuthura, destroyed the Academy on Korriban. And he must have been physically extremely strong as well since he beat Madalore in hand to hand combat according to NEC.

What's physical strength supposed to do against people who can shove ships that are hundreds of feet long with a mere thought?

Revan beat a bunch of weaklings. So what. Yoda could have done the same thing.

He was also described as stronger as a Jedi then his tenure as Dark Lord (the version Bane pissed his pants over) then he REGAINS his knowledge from his run as a DOTS thus doubling his power.

And for all his knowledge he never surpasses Yoda. So sorry.

He was a lightsider? He may have filled the killiks with his values but he was still being controlled and manipulated by the Dark Nest.

It doesn't matter if he was manipulated, he was still a lightsider. He was a huge factor in bringing the Jedi Order back to the Living Force.

Dark Jedi =/= Jedi, Dark Jedi is the term we fans give to Dark Side characters who use the Dark Side of the force, simply because its easier then typing out Dark Force User. Thus that makes him no longer a Jedi, just because you don't "officially" change your title to Sith Lord doesn't make you not a Jedi anymore...if you no longer follow the Jedi code, YOUR NOT A JEDI. Did Raynar by the end of the Swarm WAR? No. He's not a Jedi.

Raynar did still follow the ways of the Jedi even as of the Swarm War and he did it better than most of the Jedi serving actively in the Order as well.

Uh no...Aurra was a bounty hunter who hunted JEDI, thats no the Republic, and all a Sith Lord would have to do is waltz into a Jedi Temple and say "Hi Ima Sith Lord" and they'd pounce on him with extreme prejudice.

Could the fact that Aurra hunted Jedi have some to do with the Order trying to elimanate her?

And it's not prejudice to attack a Sith Lord because it is the Sith way to enslave others, which conflicts with Jedi values.

No, this is the Raynar that your posing can beat Revan, the one being manipulated and controlled by the Dark Nest, he was insane and wasn't a Jedi.

I'm not denying that he was insane. It doesn't hurt him to much though. Look at Joruus for example. He was insane too, yet he was ridiculously powerful and capable as a fighter. Lord Nyax was insane, yet he rivaled NJO Luke in Force Powers. And Raynar was still a Jedi.

A Jedi Lord? You mean something that went out with the Russan Reformations...The Jedi don't do that kind of active domination of governments anymore.

He fits the position of a Jedi Lord through the fact that he was the leader over a group of people. He's no different than anyone on the Master's Council.

Revan drew the energy up. And the game is riddled with Kreia talking about how Revan could break the will of Jedi, and how Revan could form mass bonds with large people to exploit them.

Revan could break the will of WEAK Jedi. It wouldn't help him in a fihgt against someone powerful.

LOL, there are about 4 Jedi who would be on Revans level, Luke, Kyle, Kyp and Jacen(whom he couldn't control) now unless you wanna try and say controlling LIEA is a big feat then be my guest. The rest...no. Unless your seriously gonna sit here and try to tell me Mara Jade is as strong as Revan.

Corran could defeat Revan as well. And the only ones that Revan couldn't control are Luke and Jacen. Kyp, Kyle, and Corran, who Raynar was strong enough to outright control, are stronger than Revan.

Big f*cking whoop, again Luke was desperate against Lumiya, and had to resort to shooting her with a blaster five times.

And I could give two shits on a stick about a stupid feat war (which is what you wanna turn this into)

"Well Revan didn't do feat A, so Raynar is stronger!"

Since you can't quantify how much power it takes to force push Luke when he's not rooting himself to the ground, you really have no point, who's to say Revan, Kyp, Yoda, Mara, or even Ben couldn't do it.

Naming the three strongest feats doesn't make it a feat war. Listing dozens of random, meaningless feats to a fight is feat wars. If kept on point it's perfectly valid for discussion.

Again you're opinion. And so what, he was desperate...he also knocked the shit out of Unuthrul then proceed to dice up Lomi Plo, And of course he was desperate he was fighting TWO people drawing power from thousands.

Can you prove that Revan would do as well in Raynar's position.

1. This is Unuthrul your talking about NOT Raynar, they were two separate personalities, the Hive Mind was the one doing all your leet feats.

Wrong. Raynar was drawing power from the Hive but he was still himself.

2. UnuThrul gets an unfair advantage in the first place, him being able to draw energy from the hives, and the joiners, who at that time included Lomi Plo, Alema, Jania and other Force Users. Where as his own power is likely MUCH weaker then this.

Wrong again. Being able to draw power from the Hive is no different than a Jedi using a lightsaber in a fight or Sidious drawing on the power of Byss. It is not an unfair advantage.

3. This version of Raynar, Unuthrul, is not a Jedi and is thus void from this discussion of (the most powerful jedi) in the first place

Nope. I've shown that he's still a Jedi.

4. Your nutting your pants over a force push, when Luke wasn't fighting seriously, then again what happens when he gets serious...he knocks the shit out of Raynar then dices Lomi into four pieces.

That's far from the only thing I've mentioned Raynar having done. And there's more Jedi than Raynar that are better than Revan.

Luke
Jacen
Kyp
Kyle
Corran
Mace
Yoda

Revan's not in the top five. Get over it.

Dude, you've already been disproved about Raynar, I don't think you should walk that line again for your own sake. As for who you THINK is better than Revan(youre obviously anti KOTOR), lets check it out.
Luke... Check
Jacen...Maybe, maybe not, will be once he hits his prime.
Kyp? Powerful but on Revan's level? Debatable.
Corran? LOL...
Mace? In terms of the force? No way, maybe saber abilities.
Yoda? Very likely..

No, Revan is in the top 5.

Indeed, DS i agree, but THATS redeemed revan, not the sith lord revan and mace windu for sure > revan in swordplay alone

For sure how? Because of him knowing Vaapad? Revan was the best in his order of tens of thousands, but does that translate to him>Mace? Of course not, neither does it work vice versa, there's just not enough about Revan to explain how good he is compared to others.

We do know as a sith lord he was quite powerful, Especially what he had done to other jedi and what he did at malachor V being able to resist the entire planets dark side while it broke down kreia on the other hand.

I havnt seen much techniques of revans dark side feats yet though, i Read Pod and there was nothing to indicate he became stronger as you claimed, He looked more powerful when kreia was talking about him in K2 and its K2 which proves revan is in the top 5 sith lords

Remember, Bane said the knowledge contained in Revan's holocron was greater than all of the knowledge stored in the new Korriban library.

I don't know why I'm wasting my time with this...



Is Anoon Bondara Revan? No. Not seen anyone powerful? Exar Kun ring a bell? Ulic Qel Droma, Nomi Sunrider...obviously you have no clue what your talking about (as usual) Vandar has been a Jedi Master since before the Great Sith War, he knows power, Dorak was the Jedi historian, he knows what he's talking about.



There exaggerations now? Jolee went out of his way to DOWNPLAY Revans power.

Revan "What do you see when you look at me?"

Jolee "More like a slight breeze"

As for Ajunta, play the damn game, play the Korriban part and go to his tomb as a Lightsider, he says to the affect of "That power its blinding I've seen it before" when Revan asks him if he had come before looking for the Star Maps.




Okay buddy, let me break it down for you, Look what Jacen did to Boba's daughter when he tried to forcibly rip information from 1 persons brain, he literally destroyed her brain, now Revan did this to an entire species, some of whom are force sensitive, and not only did he not melt there brains he shoved information IN to their heads. And had you not taken the post out of context you'd have seen that it wasn't in reference to a fight just general power.




Your grasping at straws, some, half, so what. The general purpose is still there.

"Bane could barley wrap his mind around the awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible--so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith master--that he doubted he would ever dare use them." PoD pg 229

You were saying...

Bane was pretty much shitting his pants with what Revan knew. And Bane very powerful he'd be more then a match for Raynar.




Did I say it did? What the hell is your point here, again your taking the post out of context, it was in reference to general power. Reading Comprehension.




Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith - The Chronicles

I didn't type that dip shit, thats the chronicles, and Leeland Chee says they are canon.

REVAN has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface . - The Chronicles

You were saying.

How can the PT archives contain all the knowledge lost from Ossus, from the Jedi being dwindled down to barley 100, from the Jedi abandoning Courscant and Dantooine. All that was lost, and can't be replaced, the PT archives contain knowledge from that point on and likely some stuff from the KOTOR era. And again what the f*ck is your point? By saying his knowledge has been surpassed your implying EVERY Jedi from the PT era devotes himself to everything in the archives, they know about the dark side and all its powers from places like Malachor. Please. To even suggest that is idiotic. And were not talking about his personal knowledge vs the PT Archives.

As for breaking Jedi, again out of context.





Did I ever doubt Luke, Jacen and Yoda were on the top 5? No. And I love that argument for them simply stating stuff with nothing to back it up, I can do it too: Raynar sucks ass, Corran sucks ass, Kyp can't duel for shit. They blow. Revan would have owned them had he lived in that time. See fun isn't it!





Seriously do you need hooked on phonics? Your taking quotes out of context. It was AGAIN in reference to his general power. The fact that he's stronger then a planet drenched in the Dark Side, is a testament to his power.



And Revan has both...dumbass/10



Not really, this is the New Sith Order Korriban Academy, Revan himself alone has more knowledge then the entire Academy, now that said Bane lives in a time two millennium after the Hyperspace Wars, in a time known as the Republics "dark ages" according to NEC, this time is influenced by legends of old and such, (Darovit saying the Jedi don't live up to the "songs" sung about them) With all this said, how the f*ck would they know that Naga Sadow had a amulet on while he was doing his feats? THey are in universe characters not looking upon comics and dissecting them. There's no way in hell they could know what the specifics of the battles were and when and what times Naga used his amulets. Bane himself even says that there are legends of Sith blowing up stars( Naga) and they were probably exaggerated, that alone says that he and the time period had no clue about the amulets.

Did I EVER say Revan > Yoda? No. Your trying to put words in my mouth.
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pwned

I assume your speaking of Yoda? I NEVER said Revan was stronger then Yoda...point moot.



Prove they were weak, considering Malak was described as near invincible by the databank proves you wrong.





Did I say he did dipshit? Learn to read...its getting quite annoying repeating myself over and over because you need hooked on phonics.




No, he wasn't your not a Jedi if your being controlled by the Dark Nest a Dark Side entity, if your insane, if you attack and attempt to kill fellow Jedi, YOUR NOT A JEDI.

He was insane that enough is proof that he wasn't a Jedi, as its contradictory to the very code you claim he followed.

There is no emotion , there is peace.

There is no passion

The fact that he can't control his own mental state and attacks other Jedi, means he's not a Jedi. GET OVER IT.




Was that the point? No. You said she was a threat to the Republic.



Oh please. Your assuming EVERY Sith Lord is the same, and if that was the case why didn't Qui Gon hack off all the slavers heads on Tatooine? Its prejudice plain and simple, the Jedi would leap over each other to kill a Sith Lord had one waltzed into the Temple.



What the hell is your point? Did I say Insanity =/= Power? Seriously learn to read.



Considering the Jedi Abolished the very idea of a Jedi Lord pretty much shits on your point. Regardless he still isn't a Jedi.



Prove they are weak, Oh thats right you can't...you don't have a point now do you?



A huh even though Revan displays the same power Jacen does, to a MUCH higher degree and with MUCH more control and doesn't make anyones brains go "boom" in the process, and he was likely around the same age as Jacen. So tell me now if Unuthrul can't even control Jacen who doesn't even have full control over his own powers how can he touch Revan who exhibits much more power to a much higher degree then Jacen...oh thats right he can't.





The fact that, you took it out of context is your own fault. Not mine. but you were doing what I showed an example of in my last post trying to make it a feat war because Unu's look cooler then Revans.



Does it matter? This is about Revan v Raynar, not Luke v Revan, considering Luke utterly shitted on Raynar(while contending with Lomi) I don't see whats your point.




Ahuh. So those fits of insanity were all him...



I'll concede this, its not like it matters even with that power he'd still get shitted on.



No you've just been shown by me and Fanus that you have no clue what your talking about.



I just proved he is. But I recommend you give this site a whirl:

secure.hop.com/

Conceded.


Though, I strongly believe that Dooku cannot own Kenobi with the Force, but is just clearly better.

Originally posted by Gideon
As far as the thoughts of the characters are concerned (which are detailed in the book), the novelization can stand. The omniscient narrator said it best: "Dooku is just dead. The rest is mere detail." That stands, which suffices to say how badly Dooku had screwed himself at this point. Period.The thoughts would be valid enough if they detailed events that were shown in the movie. Dooku taking three vertical chops from Anakin and having his saber dirven into his shoulder did not happen, hence the thoughts detailing said sequence would be negligible.

The omniscient narrator happens to be contradicting the omniscient creator of SW and his one, true version of what really happened.

Yeah, duh. I happen to be talking about Anakin, which Sexy grasped.

Soresu is innately defensive, so obviously retreat is going to play heavily in the way Kenobi fights.

Before this stat burns a hole through the ground, I want someone to actually quantify its meaning instead of blandly throwing it out. The only meaning that would make sense given the context is that Vader's potential amounts to about that much of Sidious's potential. Which, while impressive, is probably not more than Dooku's.

About Adjunta Pall:

"The force is so strong in you human"
"You...the force is with you. So strong, so bright."
"So much power... it is bliding"
"you who bristle with the force"
"I... see your power human jedi. I see your power, your pride"

These are PRECISE quotes from Adjunta Pall himself to Revan, i made the game just to take them as PRECISLY as they were showed, he said EXACTLY, word by word, this i write here now. And he is 1 of the top 4 Ancient Sith lords...

I am referring to the statement made by the omniscient narrator: "Dooku was already dead. The rest was mere detail." Which seems to apply completely, as Anakin dominated the fight, leaving Dooku unable to take the offensive or use the Force against him.



Prove that this was the case in this instance.



Late, it would seem. Or, did you mention that it was Anakin vs. Obi-Wan prior to Sexy realizing that it was so? I don't recall such a statement being made.



That was not the case with Count Dooku or General Grievous. If Anakin weren't dominating the fight (as Dooku and Grievous weren't dominating the fight) there'd be no explanation for Kenobi having to go on the defensive.



According to everyone who has seen the quote, it does not refer to potential. Who knows? We know that Maul, Dooku, and cyborg-Vader do not have the potential to become as powerful as Sidious. Considering how Vader's midichlorian count was "extremely high" even after his loss to Obi-Wan (according to the complete Visual Guide) and he had nearly double the time that Dooku had to study the dark side, I'd say that it's close.

Originally posted by kamhal
About Adjunta Pall:

"The force is so strong in you human"
"You...the force is with you. So strong, so bright."
"So much power... it is bliding"
"you who bristle with the force"
"I... see your power human jedi. I see your power, your pride"

These are PRECISE quotes from Adjunta Pall himself to Revan, i made the game just to take them as PRECISLY as they were showed, he said EXACTLY, word by word, this i write here now. And he is 1 of the top 4 Ancient Sith lords...

He's one of the Top Four? Since when?

Ignore kamhal, his hormones a raging everytime he hears revans name

I AGREE

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Remember, Bane said the knowledge contained in Revan's holocron was greater than all of the knowledge stored in the new Korriban library. irelevant, doesnt make him look any more powerful, already we knew what he did at malachors academy and he could have just recorded what he has learnt in that holocron. Page number please cuz i skipped a few pages

And believe me, have we seen exar kun, naga sadow or any other sith before revan bothering to further study the dark side? We never see them do much research as much as revan, of course revan knows more in this situation but does it rule out he > all the ancient sith, does it mean he > sidious?

The book even made revan, exar and naga look equal in power.

Let me give an example, This guy, super smart scientist, knows all knowledge of kung ku or what ever other martial art, but does it that mean he looks more powerful? I dont think so

Originally posted by Gideon
I am referring to the statement made by the omniscient narrator: "Dooku was already dead. The rest was mere detail." Which seems to apply completely, as Anakin dominated the fight, leaving Dooku unable to take the offensive or use the Force against him.Yeah, but that's another of Stover's ambiguous statements which can be interpreted in a million different ways. Even in the way you're using it, it's hardly basis for a case.

You didn't specify the instance - unless you're referring to the above quote.



Considering your post was after his, I assumed you'd have read it. If you did, there'd have been no need to ask.

Well, by what I'm guessing is your definition of "manhandling," Grievous did just that until the clones arrived. And against Dooku? Last I checked - which was five minutes ago - Obi-Wan got WTFpwned 40-ish seconds into the fight when he tried to go on the offensive against a superior warrior.

However, I'm of the opinion that in a sabers-only duel between Obi-Wan and Dooku, we'd probably have a much longer fight than any we've seen so far. Kenobi's Soresu mastery could likely stave off Dooku's Makashi for quite a while, and the Count isn't one to screw up like Anakin to shorten the battle.



Everyone who's supported the assertion that Vader > Dooku, yeah. And I'm curious to see just how many people have seen the actual quote and not a recycled version presented by people trying to prove something.

Maybe you should read the dooku vs vader thread, ALL of the ones created and ESPECIALLY the 1000 posts. you will see it faunus.

Just to let you know, a year or 2 ago, Vader is infact the most underrated character in KMC and now since with all of us here, he isnt so underrated except for anti-vaders, any body who has lightning or is faster wins by default by these peoples logic, Now its different ok?

Really? Out of curiosity, why is it that everyone brings up the "ambiguity" line when a quote is made that doesn't support their assertion? How else could the line be interpreted, Faunus?

"Dooku was already dead. The rest is mere detail." That seems pretty cut-and-dry to me. When Anakin got pissed and abandoned his restraint, Dooku didn't stand a chance. But, hey. Y'know what, for the sake of spawning a long argument, I'll take your word for it.



That would be it.



I didn't. But you shouldn't expect someone to grasp something that you leave unspecified, Faunus. Pardon me for not reading or not matching up to Sexy's intellect.



Do you mean "Grievous got manhandled"? Yeah. He did. If you are suggesting that my "definition" of manhandling implies that Obi-Wan was getting manhandled, though, you didn't read clearly enough.



We're discussing Obi-Wan's offensive/defensive tendancies. Dooku was on the defensive. Obi-Wan was not. Dooku was giving ground. Obi-Wan was not.



Completely agreed.



Maybe.

Originally posted by Kadesh Maybe you should read the dooku vs vader thread, ALL of the ones created and ESPECIALLY the 1000 posts. you will see it faunus.Maybe I was here during one of the million Vader/Dooku threads, saw all the evidence, and went with Dooku.

I think I got the jist of that post - that I'm "anti-vader" and out of sync with "da timez" - but punctuation and capitalization are still kinda useful.

This subject sore for you, Faunus, or is there some bad blood between you and Kadesh? 'Cuz it seems that you're being remarkably rude to a guy who is trying to express his opinion.

Originally posted by Gideon I didn't. But you shouldn't expect someone to grasp something that you leave unspecified, Faunus. Pardon me for not reading or not matching up to Sexy's intellect.Hm. My bad, then.

Well, from what I'm gathering, you seem to think that giving ground equates to being manhandled. If this is the case, then Obi-Wan most certainly got said treatment when Grievous had him dodging and backpedaling like crazy. Hence, by said logic, Obi-Wan got manhandled. Hopefully I'm just missing something.

Yes, and again, when Obi-Wan went on the offensive against a more proficient duelist, he got pwned. Everytime he successfully defended himself, he ended up destroying his opponents.



Wootz for headway.

I'll be back later. We can finish it then.

Originally posted by Gideon
This subject sore for you, Faunus, or is there some bad blood between you and Kadesh? 'Cuz it seems that you're being remarkably rude to a guy who is trying to express his opinion. Well for one, I don't like being told my opinion is invalid, outdated, or simply wrong, as no one has the right to tell someone else that. Two, I had to read his post three times before I could understand it, something I haven't had to do in seven months.

And really - SW isn't quite enough to get me upset. It's the logic (or lack of) and the people that get to me.

Originally posted by Faunus
Maybe I was here during one of the million Vader/Dooku threads, saw all the evidence, and went with Dooku.
Then you must be an idiot( no offence) everything me subjeckt, Kenobi and gideon wrote proved vader > dooku

Originally posted by Faunus

I think I got the jist of that post - that I'm "anti-vader" and out of sync with "da timez" - but punctuation and capitalization are still kinda useful. Well thank you for telling sir!