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Whatever religion you may be, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.


How do you honestly expect someone to beleive the same things you beleive when you have no proof of your convictions to supply them with ?



Now, I notice that it tends to be Christians and Muslims who do this more so than anyone else.....claiming that we will end up in Hell for not beleiving your beleifs....


Even if you are sincere, and even if you truly beleive you are trying to save us, how do you expect us to beleive your religion when you cannot prove the validity of it ?




You really want us non-beleivers and people of other Faiths to just DROP EVERYTHING WE CURRENTLY BELEIVE, ignore everything we learned for ourselves, ignore our own impulses, knowledge, etc. and just switch to your beleif system ?



Do you anticipate any struggle ?


Do you plan to harass us until we beleive ?



I don't get it....how do you plan to convince us that we are wrong, and you are right ?




Be a bit Realistic...


You can preach to us to death, but if you cannot supply proof for your beleifs, then how do you truly expect the rest of us to just follow ?

I suppose this is what you've really been trying to ask all this time


To answer your question as far as I understand it people of faith expect others to have the sort of revelation that they had despite the absence of proof

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I suppose this is what you've really been trying to ask all this time







Thank You, thank you, thank you, thank you....


EVERY SINGLE argument I have EVER MADE about religion has been about this one little point.....





Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
To answer your question as far as I understand it people of faith expect others to have the sort of revelation that they had despite the absence of proof




I know, but they don't realize that everyone sees the world differently. They honestly or somehow beleive that either all Atheists are blind or willfully refusing a truth they "somehow know deep down inside"



How do they explain people who have had thier Faith for years who eventually relinquish it ?

People with religious beliefs have a hope that existence follows some set of laws that result in a beneficial outcome. Religions typically claim that this hope is universal, and that those not of that faith are missing some aspects that are present in the said religion. Thus proof is irrelevant since religions are based in faith, defined eloquently in the Bible as a hope of things not seen.

Originally posted by Regret
People with religious beliefs have a hope that existence follows some set of laws that result in a beneficial outcome. Religions typically claim that this hope is universal, and that those not of that faith are missing some aspects that are present in the said religion. Thus proof is irrelevant since religions are based in faith, defined eloquently in the Bible as a hope of things not seen.



You have not actually answered my question though.....


How do you expect me to beleive what you beleive when you cannot supply me proof of the truth to your beleif ?


How do you expect me to drop my current beleifs, change my entire lifestyle, and ultamately change myself, just because you tell me i should ?

I don't know.

Some people do, however, spontaneously believe. They feel the calling. Neither of my parents became Christian until they were adults.

Originally posted by FeceMan
I don't know.

Some people do, however, spontaneously believe. They feel the calling. Neither of my parents became Christian until they were adults.


So would you say that it is more a matter of introducing Christianity thereby allowing the possibility of that person to convert ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You have not actually answered my question though.....


How do you expect me to beleive what you beleive when you cannot supply me proof of the truth to your beleif ?

I did explain this. From a religious perspective proof is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How do you expect me to drop my current beleifs, change my entire lifestyle, and ultamately change myself, just because you tell me i should ? I expect nothing of you. I merely believe you should have the opportunity to reject my beliefs based on an educated position as to what my beliefs are. It would be unwise for an individual to reject a proposal without being informed as to both positions.

Originally posted by Regret
I did explain this. From a religious perspective proof is irrelevant.


But what about from a non religious perspective ? Proof is absolutely necessary.

If your goal is to convince me that you know the truth, then you must supply me with proof, or evidense at the very least.

Otherwise, how do you honestly expect me to beleive you ?





Originally posted by Regret
I expect nothing of you. I merely believe you should have the opportunity to reject my beliefs based on an educated position as to what my beliefs are. It would be unwise for an individual to reject a proposal without being informed as to both positions.


This also entails your beleif that I will end up in Hell, because I reject your beleifs, since I do not buy them. Even though I am not genuinely convinced....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
This also entails your beleif that I will end up in Hell, because I reject your beleifs, since I do not buy them. Even though I am not genuinely convinced.... You are amusing. Whether or not you go to hell is irrelevant to a decision as to religious belief, how can some consequence you do not believe in increase the probability of you believing the religion that presents this claim? And by the way, my beliefs don't claim unbelievers go to Hell, something I keep telling you yet you can't seem to get past the belief that Marchello's Beliefs are representative and the end all of all Bible faiths.

Originally posted by Regret
You are amusing.


Dude, you have no fkn idea......if you were to see one of my ammature porns, you'd go fkn nuts !



Originally posted by Regret
Whether or not you go to hell is irrelevant to a decision as to religious belief, how can some consequence you do not believe in increase the probability of you believing the religion that presents this claim?


You obviously do not get my question....

According to your beleif, If I refuse your beleif, I end up in Hell, yes or no ?


If you know i will go to Hell, and suffer, wouldn't you try your hardest to convince me that your Faith is what i should follow ?

And if so, how do you plan to do that ?










Originally posted by Regret
And by the way, my beliefs don't claim unbelievers go to Hell, something I keep telling you yet you can't seem to get past the belief that Marchello's Beliefs are representative and the end all of all Bible faiths.


So then what does "sin" matter? If there is no consequence, if my afterlife will be a good one, then why should i stop "sinning" ? And i thnk you know what i mean.....


Marcello is a shitface....i already stated that i do not judge you and other Christians by his demeanor.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You obviously do not get my question....

According to your beleif, If I refuse your beleif, I end up in Hell, yes or no ? no


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If you know i will go to Hell, and suffer, wouldn't you try your hardest to convince me that your Faith is what i should follow ?

And if so, how do you plan to do that ?


So then what does "sin" matter? If there is no consequence, if my afterlife will be a good one, then why should i stop "sinning" ? And i thnk you know what i mean.....


Marcello is a shitface....i already stated that i do not judge you and other Christians by his demeanor. Your behaviors impact your ability to progress in the future. Dropping out of school does not alter your current state, it only impacts your state in the future, the opportunities available. Advancing through a doctorate merely opens more opportunity, opportunity that is unavailable to those without that education. For Mormons, beliefs and obedience are similar to education, sin places you in a position closer to the eternal equivalent of dropping out, whereas obedience leads closer to the eternal equivalent of the doctorate.

There is no real current consequence for dropping out, the act merely impacts opportunity in the future.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Whatever religion you may be, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.


How do you honestly expect someone to beleive the same things you beleive when you have no proof of your convictions to supply them with ?



Now, I notice that it tends to be Christians and Muslims who do this more so than anyone else.....claiming that we will end up in Hell for not beleiving your beleifs....


Even if you are sincere, and even if you truly beleive you are trying to save us, how do you expect us to beleive your religion when you cannot prove the validity of it ?




You really want us non-beleivers and people of other Faiths to just DROP EVERYTHING WE CURRENTLY BELEIVE, ignore everything we learned for ourselves, ignore our own impulses, knowledge, etc. and just switch to your beleif system ?



Do you anticipate any struggle ?


Do you plan to harass us until we beleive ?



I don't get it....how do you plan to convince us that we are wrong, and you are right ?




Be a bit Realistic...


You can preach to us to death, but if you cannot supply proof for your beleifs, then how do you truly expect the rest of us to just follow ?
You raise a good question Urizen. Now, I have provided evidence for my claims, however, proof escapes anything that is faith based and this is no secret. However, I hope that the things I tell you inform and help clarify things of God for you, so that if you ever need to fall back or feel compelled to search for God you have a more solid background unto fall. I preach to you to hopefully show you that Jesus did indeed die for your sins because God wants you to be Heaven with him for eternity. I don't EXPECT you to believe, but I do have HOPE that one day you will be saved because I wish the very best for you in this life and the next.

Originally posted by Regret
Your behaviors impact your ability to progress in the future. Dropping out of school does not alter your current state, it only impacts your state in the future, the opportunities available. Advancing through a doctorate merely opens more opportunity, opportunity that is unavailable to those without that education. For Mormons, beliefs and obedience are similar to education, sin places you in a position closer to the eternal equivalent of dropping out, whereas obedience leads closer to the eternal equivalent of the doctorate.

There is no real current consequence for dropping out, the act merely impacts opportunity in the future.


So then there's no guarantee that someone will end up in Hell ? Even if they murder, steal, and rape....there's still a chance they'd end up in Heaven ?

Originally posted by Nellinator
You raise a good question Urizen. Now, I have provided evidence for my claims, however, proof escapes anything that is faith based and this is no secret. However, I hope that the things I tell you inform and help clarify things of God for you, so that if you ever need to fall back or feel compelled to search for God you have a more solid background unto fall. I preach to you to hopefully show you that Jesus did indeed die for your sins because God wants you to be Heaven with him for eternity. I don't EXPECT you to believe, but I do have HOPE that one day you will be saved because I wish the very best for you in this life and the next.


I am very happy you made this post. This is the sincerity I have been looking for. For that I thank you Nellinator


I will never forget this.....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So then there's no guarantee that someone will end up in Hell ? Even if they murder, steal, and rape....there's still a chance they'd end up in Heaven ? Yes, they will. Although some sins severely limit one in the eternities.

Originally posted by Regret
Yes, they will. Although some sins severely limit one in the eternities.



now do you know this, or do you beleive this ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am very happy you made this post. This is the sincerity I have been looking for. For that I thank you Nellinator


I will never forget this.....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
now do you know this, or do you beleive this ? Murder and rape will place a person at some area in what Mormons term the telestial glory, the lowest kingdom of heaven.

People can believe whatever they want to believe - just don't shove it down my throat.

I don't.

What I do expect is for others to practice respect, regardless of belief. "God" is secondary; it's how we treat each other that matters most (to "God" as well as to ourselves hug).

Originally posted by Mindship
I don't.

What I do expect is for others to practice respect, regardless of belief. "God" is secondary; it's how we treat each other that matters most (to "God" as well as to ourselves hug).

Like not hugging strangers.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Whatever religion you may be, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.


How do you honestly expect someone to beleive the same things you beleive when you have no proof of your convictions to supply them with ?



Now, I notice that it tends to be Christians and Muslims who do this more so than anyone else.....claiming that we will end up in Hell for not beleiving your beleifs....


Even if you are sincere, and even if you truly beleive you are trying to save us, how do you expect us to beleive your religion when you cannot prove the validity of it ?




You really want us non-beleivers and people of other Faiths to just DROP EVERYTHING WE CURRENTLY BELEIVE, ignore everything we learned for ourselves, ignore our own impulses, knowledge, etc. and just switch to your beleif system ?



Do you anticipate any struggle ?


Do you plan to harass us until we beleive ?



I don't get it....how do you plan to convince us that we are wrong, and you are right ?




Be a bit Realistic...


You can preach to us to death, but if you cannot supply proof for your beleifs, then how do you truly expect the rest of us to just follow ?

And again with the generalisation.

I don't expect you to believe anything, paticulary since Buddhism is a about understanding.
The pagan side of me says that I would not want people like you joining my religion, anyway.

Your hateret of religion is immense - if you believed a religion, I could see you with immense hateret of all other religion who are not your own.

You would be a stain on my religion.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Whatever religion you may be, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.


How do you honestly expect someone to beleive the same things you beleive when you have no proof of your convictions to supply them with ?



Now, I notice that it tends to be Christians and Muslims who do this more so than anyone else.....claiming that we will end up in Hell for not beleiving your beleifs....


Even if you are sincere, and even if you truly beleive you are trying to save us, how do you expect us to beleive your religion when you cannot prove the validity of it ?




You really want us non-beleivers and people of other Faiths to just DROP EVERYTHING WE CURRENTLY BELEIVE, ignore everything we learned for ourselves, ignore our own impulses, knowledge, etc. and just switch to your beleif system ?



Do you anticipate any struggle ?


Do you plan to harass us until we beleive ?



I don't get it....how do you plan to convince us that we are wrong, and you are right ?




Be a bit Realistic...


You can preach to us to death, but if you cannot supply proof for your beleifs, then how do you truly expect the rest of us to just follow ?

Well I can see the gods.....but you will probably tell me im hallucianting because you dont have the ability to see spirits and gods as well.

It' s curious that you aren' t able to detect the fanaticism you' re surrounding yourself in/with.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well I can see the gods.....but you will probably tell me im hallucianting because you dont have the ability to see spirits and gods as well.

A-are you serious?

Originally posted by Bardock42
A-are you serious?

Yes I am.....ever studied M-E-D-I-T-A-T-I-O-N.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes I am.....ever studied M-E-D-I-T-A-T-I-O-N.

Yeah, though why do you see Gods that others don't?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, though why do you see Gods that others don't?

Anybody can if you reach a certain level of meditation.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Anybody can if you reach a certain level of meditation.

And you are sure it might not be hallucinating?

And you think you are one of the people that reached it the furthest?

Originally posted by Bardock42
And you are sure it might not be hallucinating?

How do you know im not a hallucination?

Originally posted by Bardock42

And you think you are one of the people that reached it the furthest?

Nope but im hoping this year to beome an adept, as far as I know thats one of the highest levels above that is master.

Originally posted by Alfheim
How do you know im not a hallucination?



Nope but im hoping this year to beome an adept, as far as I know thats one of the highest levels above that is master.

I am not, I wouldn't claim that. You might very well be right. I am just wondering if you consider the possibility that meditating puts you in a hallucinating state?


They have ranks?

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am not, I wouldn't claim that. You might very well be right. I am just wondering if you consider the possibility that meditating puts you in a hallucinating state?

To be quite honest..... of course. The thing about life is this you cant be 100 percent sure of anything, so far I have enough proof that gods exist. When I reach a certain level then hopefully I will find even more proof.

Originally posted by Bardock42

They have ranks?

Yeah, but these are the ranks that I have got from books about Western Magick.

Originally posted by Alfheim
To be quite honest..... of course. The thing about life is this you cant be 100 percent sure of anything, so far I have enough proof that gods exist. When I reach a certain level then hopefully I will find even more proof.



Yeah, but these are the ranks that I have got from books about Western Magick.

Well, good. I hope you also understand that I am not certain of it. More even I doubt it. I did not encounter any proof of that myself.

But I hope you are right. Cause if the Christians are right, my afterlife will suck severe balls. Actually more so, I will. Satan's.

Originally posted by Bardock42

But I hope you are right. Cause if the Christians are right, my afterlife will suck severe balls. Actually more so, I will. Satan's.

No they are not right. This religon business can be quite complicated, but to be quite honest one thing I am finding out is that this Shamnic saying seems to be true "Reality is what you think it is."

If you belive when you die you will see Mickey Mouse you will see Mickey Mouse, if you belive when you die you wil see Zeus you will see Zeus. This is why eventhough Jesus never died for our sins, that Christians see "miracles", becuase they belive thats what happened.

Eventhough I belive that I will go to Alfheim when I die, I dont neccesarily think that this is because this is what I think. I belive that there are beings that exist independently of my that have called me to this path. So I dont always belive that a persons belief is just his own doing I think its a combination of the individual and of spirits and gods....hope that made sense.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And again with the generalisation.


What fkn generalization ?

Most people here on KMC are trying to enforce thier beleifs upon others....

All I ask is how do you expect us to beleive what you beleive without proof ?

That is all....if you dont expect anything, then don't post.....this isn't addressed towards you






Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I don't expect you to believe anything, paticulary since Buddhism is a about understanding..



I was actually addressing Christianity and Islam more so than any thing else, but Atheism as well can be enforced, and I wondor how Atheists expect Theists to just drop thier entire beleifs as well.....





Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The pagan side of me says that I would not want people like you joining my religion, anyway..



"not want people like you"


Hypocrite much ?

Mad at me for making generalizations, when you do it yourself ?








Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Your hateret of religion is immense - if you believed a religion, I could see you with immense hateret of all other religion who are not your own..


Hatred of religion ? Is that what you call it ?


I hate the negativity and hypocrisy that comes out of Christianity and Islam. That's all.

I already explained this to Nellinator. I care not for your baseless perception of me.





Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You would be a stain on my religion.


Your religion seems like sh*t to me ne way.....hypocrisy and judgement must be a MAJOR major aspect of your Faith Lil B


You are a hypocite extraordinaire !

You BASH Islam like there is NO TOMORROW...with such passionate hatred and disgust, you even made Alliance, who has a low tolerance of religion to begin with, feel bad for Islam....

And then you have the nerve to critisize and judge me for my poking fun at Christianity ?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Like not hugging strangers.
Depends on the stranger...I am partial to Sophia Loren / Anna Nicole Smith lookalikes.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Whatever religion you may be, whether it be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, etc.


How do you honestly expect someone to beleive the same things you beleive when you have no proof of your convictions to supply them with ?



Now, I notice that it tends to be Christians and Muslims who do this more so than anyone else.....claiming that we will end up in Hell for not beleiving your beleifs....


Even if you are sincere, and even if you truly beleive you are trying to save us, how do you expect us to beleive your religion when you cannot prove the validity of it ?




You really want us non-beleivers and people of other Faiths to just DROP EVERYTHING WE CURRENTLY BELEIVE, ignore everything we learned for ourselves, ignore our own impulses, knowledge, etc. and just switch to your beleif system ?



Do you anticipate any struggle ?


Do you plan to harass us until we beleive ?



I don't get it....how do you plan to convince us that we are wrong, and you are right ?




Be a bit Realistic...


You can preach to us to death, but if you cannot supply proof for your beleifs, then how do you truly expect the rest of us to just follow ? They expect us to have faith in them, like we expect proof and validity. They run on religion, we run on Science, they are too different, we don't understand religion, they don't understand science.
I'm thinking this is obvious and you're dumb, but I would've asked the same question, it's just hearing it from you makes me realise the answer better than if I ask it to someone else.

Originally posted by lord xyz
They expect us to have faith in them, like we expect proof and validity.

I don't expect proof and validity....I don't imagine they can supply me with any.

But I am asking why would they be so judgemental as to dismiss our own beleifs or rejection of thier faith as "foolish", when they cannot supply us with some kind of proof or re assurance at least ?



I imagine that strong minded Theists beleive that we see what they see, but intentionally deny it, due to our "sinful natures"


Either that, or they must think you and I are SO BLIND that we could never see what they see.....




Originally posted by lord xyz
They run on religion, we run on Science, they are too different, we don't understand religion, they don't understand science.


Do you seriously beleive it is that black and white ?


Many scientists happen to be religious, and many religious people value science just as much as thier own religion.

Many Atheists ALSO understand religion VERY WELL, myself being included...




Originally posted by lord xyz
I'm thinking this is obvious and you're dumb, but I would've asked the same question, it's just hearing it from you makes me realise the answer better than if I ask it to someone else.



Really ?


I think you're pretty stupid for automatically assuming that religious people don't get science, while scientific people don't get religion.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What fkn generalization ?

Most people here on KMC are trying to enforce thier beleifs upon others....

All I ask is how do you expect us to beleive what you beleive without proof ?

That is all....if you dont expect anything, then don't post.....this isn't addressed towards you










I was actually addressing Christianity and Islam more so than any thing else, but Atheism as well can be enforced, and I wondor how Atheists expect Theists to just drop thier entire beleifs as well.....









"not want people like you"


Hypocrite much ?

Mad at me for making generalizations, when you do it yourself ?











Hatred of religion ? Is that what you call it ?


I hate the negativity and hypocrisy that comes out of Christianity and Islam. That's all.

I already explained this to Nellinator. I care not for your baseless perception of me.








Your religion seems like sh*t to me ne way.....hypocrisy and judgement must be a MAJOR major aspect of your Faith Lil B


You are a hypocite extraordinaire !

You BASH Islam like there is NO TOMORROW...with such passionate hatred and disgust, you even made Alliance, who has a low tolerance of religion to begin with, feel bad for Islam....

And then you have the nerve to critisize and judge me for my poking fun at Christianity ?






See this is a diffeance between you and me.

I have NEVER made a thread bashing Muslims, ridiculing Muslims of Islam. I take Islam very seriously, because of its political structire and its imperialsim.
Islam is an political ideology. I know this because I bothered reseaching.

The fact Muslims belive in Allah is irrelevant. The fact that they believe sun sets in a muddy pond, is irrelevant. I will NEVER EVER attack this or ridicule it, because that is the religious and cultural belief. And if it wasn't a violent ideology, advocating murder of infidels, non-muslims, opression of women, and its founder was not the way he was, I franly would not care.

DO NOT ever imply that my approach to Islam correlates to your approach to Christianity in any way, because frankly, that is extreamly offencive to me.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So would you say that it is more a matter of introducing Christianity thereby allowing the possibility of that person to convert ?
As opposed to doing what?

Originally posted by FeceMan
As opposed to doing what?

As opposed to actually bullying people into beleiving what you beleive ? Or constantly repeating the same thing over and over , hoping they will eventually submit ?


How do you plan to convince anyone you are right ?


In fact, name ONE person you have successfully converted....

I've found that its a practice for some Christians to find those that have no hope, who are down on their luck and seem to be lost, and introduce the idea of Christ and that their suffering will be rewarded in heaven.

"Just trust in God and us and all will be well. Now please donate to the Church."

Originally posted by Marxman
I've found that its a practice for some Christians to find those that have no hope, who are down on their luck and seem to be lost, and introduce the idea of Christ and that their suffering will be rewarded in heaven.

"Just trust in God and us and all will be well. Now please donate to the Church."

Thats really the one major thing that I find creepy about Christianity.

Sure I disagree with many of their beliefs but the manipulation is what really scares me.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Thats really the one major thing that I find creepy about Christianity.

Sure I disagree with many of their beliefs but the manipulation is what really scares me.

Yea, I was in the hospital this past summer, all I heard was "God loves you, here's a pamphlet." And lo and behold, at the end of the pamphlet was a way to donate money, if I so felt the urge.

Although to be fair, at one point I was sharing my room with a pastor and he was pretty fking cool as far as clergy go. He didn't once ask me if I was saved or any of that mumbo jumbo, and he was cool about my opinion on his god.

Originally posted by Marxman
Yea, I was in the hospital this past summer, all I heard was "God loves you, here's a pamphlet." And lo and behold, at the end of the pamphlet was a way to donate money, if I so felt the urge.

Although to be fair, at one point I was sharing my room with a pastor and he was pretty fking cool as far as clergy go. He didn't once ask me if I was saved or any of that mumbo jumbo, and he was cool about my opinion on his god.

That diochotomy is why I stay on these forums.

There is good and bad in everything.

The very devout reverend at my church is a great smart guy and so is my very athiest Grandfather.

Then again there are people who kill in the name of God and people who use progress to rationalize horrible actions.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
As opposed to actually bullying people into beleiving what you beleive ? Or constantly repeating the same thing over and over , hoping they will eventually submit ?


How do you plan to convince anyone you are right ?


In fact, name ONE person you have successfully converted....
One, actually.

And one person is better than no persons. I expect them to believe based on faith.

Lord Urizen how are you ?? i hope you are well .


your questions is Valid and in its place . Because I do so. because I really invite others to Islam. Although I am quite sure that Islam is a religion of the right . and i Tell them about all what I can say aboutthe truth of isalm . But it is very important that you have the evidence and proof on what it says . and from here the inviting to islam becomes difficult to call somebody to believe but without any strong proof.

But wait, i want to say something to you . Do you not believe in God, never? or what ? just as samll question . because I will come back for discussion again .


Listen to me, my brother . Everything I know that when allah created us .. i meam all people whatever muslims or Christians or Jews ....act)
god Create within each and every one of us the Faith in the existence to him ( God ). but after you born .. Certainly you will follow the sect and faith of your Parents . that mean if your parents are Christian you will be Christian .. And the same with other religions . but be sure inside you there is something call ( Hidayat about The existence of God ) .

hear me, Venerable Brother . Concerning ,when Muslims call others to Islam .. i mean as a muslim when i call somebody to islam just i tell them about what for example islam call to .. What are the provisions of Islam? What are the dealings of Islam? The reason why Islam? If the human , believed in God first . It would be easy to believe about
Prophets .and so on ....

also Islam relies on the mind does not depend on coercion . that mean Can people believe about existence of God if they Think carefully . who created you Lord Urizen? who gave the Spirit to you to live ? Look at the sky. How it did not fall over our heads? Although there is no anything can hold it . Everything around you and what people call it nature . just god created it no one else. The universe is the biggest proof for non beliver .. And God created for us brains to think and discuss until we find the right thing and also god knew before that the humans want many proofs to believe in that so he put all proofs around us . just think and ask and search until you find to truth .

yes I call Others to Islam, and I am so proud about that .. because truly i know that is true .. and my big proof for them is the Universe agian. Some of them think and believe with days but other need stronger proof . and maybe allah will show them this proof .

that is for now . and i will came again to tell you fact story about that . about man who believed in god ,,Although he was great atheist.


An important note.

When the Muslims calling the other to Islam .. Of course they know it is not easy to change the believe .. But there is something call the great faith and confidence in God .. that mean If God wanted from you to follow islam he will do that because he is capable for every thing. And of course God has large mercy . he forgive you, if you believed in him and for that there is some thing call paradise for people who believe in one god . i wont you to be angry or something but If you sincerely wanted to know the right . god will help you be sure .

with all Respect for everyone

best
silver heart

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
See this is a diffeance between you and me.

I have NEVER made a thread bashing Muslims, ridiculing Muslims of Islam. I take Islam very seriously, because of its political structire and its imperialsim.
Islam is an political ideology. I know this because I bothered reseaching.

The fact Muslims belive in Allah is irrelevant. The fact that they believe sun sets in a muddy pond, is irrelevant. I will NEVER EVER attack this or ridicule it, because that is the religious and cultural belief. And if it wasn't a violent ideology, advocating murder of infidels, non-muslims, opression of women, and its founder was not the way he was, I franly would not care.

DO NOT ever imply that my approach to Islam correlates to your approach to Christianity in any way, because frankly, that is extreamly offencive to me.

Well you did once put up a song about islam, but in all fairness I think you were really really really pissed of, and its not something you would normaly do. I would not compare you to urzien at all because you have done alot of research.

Originally posted by silver heart







Lord Urizen how are you ?? i hope you are well .


your questions is Valid and in its place . Because I do so. because I really invite others to Islam. Although I am quite sure that Islam is a religion of the right . and i Tell them about all what I can say aboutthe truth of isalm . But it is very important that you have the evidence and proof on what it says . and from here the inviting to islam becomes difficult to call somebody to believe but without any strong proof.

But wait, i want to say something to you . Do you not believe in God, never? or what ? just as samll question . because I will come back for discussion again .


Listen to me, my brother . Everything I know that when allah created us .. i meam all people whatever muslims or Christians or Jews ....act)
god Create within each and every one of us the Faith in the existence to him ( God ). but after you born .. Certainly you will follow the sect and faith of your Parents . that mean if your parents are Christian you will be Christian .. And the same with other religions . but be sure inside you there is something call ( Hidayat about The existence of God ) .

hear me, Venerable Brother . Concerning ,when Muslims call others to Islam .. i mean as a muslim when i call somebody to islam just i tell them about what for example islam call to .. What are the provisions of Islam? What are the dealings of Islam? The reason why Islam? If the human , believed in God first . It would be easy to believe about
Prophets .and so on ....

also Islam relies on the mind does not depend on coercion . that mean Can people believe about existence of God if they Think carefully . who created you Lord Urizen? who gave the Spirit to you to live ? Look at the sky. How it did not fall over our heads? Although there is no anything can hold it . Everything around you and what people call it nature . just god created it no one else. The universe is the biggest proof for non beliver .. And God created for us brains to think and discuss until we find the right thing and also god knew before that the humans want many proofs to believe in that so he put all proofs around us . just think and ask and search until you find to truth .

yes I call Others to Islam, and I am so proud about that .. because truly i know that is true .. and my big proof for them is the Universe agian. Some of them think and believe with days but other need stronger proof . and maybe allah will show them this proof .

that is for now . and i will came again to tell you fact story about that . about man who believed in god ,,Although he was great atheist.


An important note.

When the Muslims calling the other to Islam .. Of course they know it is not easy to change the believe .. But there is something call the great faith and confidence in God .. that mean If God wanted from you to follow islam he will do that because he is capable for every thing. And of course God has large mercy . he forgive you, if you believed in him and for that there is some thing call paradise for people who believe in one god . i wont you to be angry or something but If you sincerely wanted to know the right . god will help you be sure .

with all Respect for everyone

best
silver heart




That was very insightful, but to bad your a sock of Fatima



I really wanted to respond to you, because I thought this was a great post. You're pretty much reasonable in your assertion that there is "evidense" of God, or at least of a creator ALL around us.....yes, that is true, but that is all circumstancial evidense.


I can easily use the sky, the spirit, nature as evidense of Hinduism, or as evidense of Greek Mythology, or as evidense of my own religion.

What makes you so certain that this evidense only supports the existance of your God and the validity your Faith ?


An Atheist Scientist can easily rationalize the existance of such wondors as well as you can.

Why'd fatima get banned? Stupidity?

Why does the sky not fall on us?

Take any basic science class, you'll get your answer.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Why does the sky not fall on us?

Take any basic science class, you'll get your answer.

Oh I know this one! Because Apollo holds it up!

Originally posted by FeceMan
Why'd fatima get banned? Stupidity?
Fatima isn't banned. Just her sock is.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
That was very insightful, but to bad your a sock of Fatima



I really wanted to respond to you, because I thought this was a great post. You're pretty much reasonable in your assertion that there is "evidense" of God, or at least of a creator ALL around us.....yes, that is true, but that is all circumstancial evidense.


I can easily use the sky, the spirit, nature as evidense of Hinduism, or as evidense of Greek Mythology, or as evidense of my own religion.

What makes you so certain that this evidense only supports the existance of your God and the validity your Faith ?


An Atheist Scientist can easily rationalize the existance of such wondors as well as you can.


silver heart is my freind i invit her to the forum ..we r in the same city ...lil thought its my sock ..why she didnt check IP adress again and see if its same number ...insane

I can't say I don't believe you. I thought it was weird that you would have a sock. Especially while you are still on.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
See this is a diffeance between you and me.

I have NEVER made a thread bashing Muslims, ridiculing Muslims of Islam. I take Islam very seriously, because of its political structire and its imperialsim.
Islam is an political ideology. I know this because I bothered reseaching.

The fact Muslims belive in Allah is irrelevant. The fact that they believe sun sets in a muddy pond, is irrelevant. I will NEVER EVER attack this or ridicule it, because that is the religious and cultural belief. And if it wasn't a violent ideology, advocating murder of infidels, non-muslims, opression of women, and its founder was not the way he was, I franly would not care.

DO NOT ever imply that my approach to Islam correlates to your approach to Christianity in any way, because frankly, that is extreamly offencive to me.

so ur basically scared that islam is going to take over the world one day?

Originally posted by Marxman
I've found that its a practice for some Christians to find those that have no hope, who are down on their luck and seem to be lost, and introduce the idea of Christ and that their suffering will be rewarded in heaven.

"Just trust in God and us and all will be well. Now please donate to the Church." I have seen that a lot, especially in films, like it's a good thing.

Originally posted by FeceMan
One, actually.

And one person is better than no persons. I expect them to believe based on faith. I would rather that person believe based on knowledge.

Originally posted by FeceMan
Why'd fatima get banned? Stupidity? Socking. It's pretty obvious, the fact that both Fatima and silver heart both suck at english and use "believe" instead of "belief" is evident enough.

Originally posted by muslimscholar
so ur basically scared that islam is going to take over the world one day? No, she's disgusted by Islam's beliefs.

Originally posted by lord xyz

No, she's disgusted by Islam's beliefs.


why?

Originally posted by muslimscholar
why?

Because the religon is very intolerant, for example in an Islamic state I would get my head chopped off because I used to be msulim.

Originally posted by lord xyz



Listen kid .I dont like to insult people but thats very rude ..try to chose your words carefully next time ..And my English is not your business ..ok

Lets wait for L B ..




Nobody force her to read about Islam

Originally posted by lord xyz
Socking. It's pretty obvious, the fact that both Fatima and silver heart both suck at english and use "believe" instead of "belief" is evident enough.
Did it ever occur to you that English might not be their native language?

Originally posted by Storm
Did it ever occur to you that English might not be their native language? Yes, I know that, they're from UAE, I'm just stating that they don't know English well. I never said they should or anything.

Originally posted by Fatima
Listen kid .I dont like to insult people but thats very rude ..try to chose your words carefully next time ..And my English is not your business ..ok

Lets wait for L B ..




Nobody force her to read about Islam Sorry, but you're the only one here with that problem, and doesn't fix it. I guess I could've said it in a nicer way, but oh well, I am who I am.

Your point being?

Evidence is spelt with a c.

What's the actual point of this thread? If indeed there is one.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Evidence is spelt with a c.

What's the actual point of this thread? If indeed there is one. I assume you're talking to me when I said evident, but evident is a word.

Originally posted by lord xyz
I assume you're talking to me when I said evident, but evident is a word. No it was just a general comment. More directed at LU actually. I would have quoted him, but I don't actually care what the content of the post was.

Originally posted by Storm
Did it ever occur to you that English might not be their native language?

Still it seems possible to us, you know?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Because the religon is very intolerant, for example in an Islamic state I would get my head chopped off because I used to be msulim.

same thing happens with alot of religions (not the decapitation, the intolerance for disagreement)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
same thing happens with alot of religions (not the decapitation, the intolerance for disagreement) No, christianity and judaism, have decapitated non-believers, they don't now becasue it's illegal.

Originally posted by lord xyz
No, christianity and judaism, have decapitated non-believers, they don't now becasue it's illegal.


Yes, this is what Lil B refuses to acknowledge


Originally posted by lord xyz
What's the actual point of this thread? If indeed there is one.


To test the rational mindset or at least the empathy of a devout religious person, particularly a Christian or a Muslim.


I understand they have thier reasons to beleive what they beleive. I was once Christian myself, one with intense Faith.

However, I do not understand their expectancy for the rest of us to submit by reliquinshing our own beleifs and knowledge, banishing all our prior biases, and just taking thier beleifs as truth by thier word.

If they cannot supply us "infidels" with proof, then reasonably, why should we beleive ?


Nellinator seems to have gotten my point pretty well...im surprised you didn't.

And atheist were chopping heads off like crazy in the French Revolution. Its the ugly head of human nature not religion.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
See this is a diffeance between you and me.


The difference between you and myself is that I often will joke around about Christianity and make fun of it's mythos for the sake of laughter, while you will sternly and vicously bash Islam as a religion.

I may have had my share in bashing Christianity, but I have been a LOT looser and easier in my approach than you have.



Also, I have condoned Christianity as well.

Mother Teresa happens to be my biggest role model, and guess what....shes Christian !

My family is Christian, as are most of my freinds !

I have always stated that Jesus Christ was a great man, even comparable to Buddha who I admire very very much !


I have stated how the Christian Children's Fund is one of the greatest organizations come to date.....


I have also critisized Islam, Atheism, and Gay Media...perhaps not as much as Christianity, but you can't say i target Christians....


Where have you been ?



Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I have NEVER made a thread bashing Muslims, ridiculing Muslims of Islam.


You previously stated that if a Muslim is NOT violent, prejudice, and a zealot, then they are not "real muslims"


If that isn't ridiculing Muslims, I don't know what is !










Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Islam is an political ideology. I know this because I bothered reseaching.


I too have done my research on Christianity. Not only it's texts, but its history, the various intepretations, and it's current evolution. Not to mention, I have been Christian for 18 years, so excuuuuuse me







Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The fact Muslims belive in Allah is irrelevant. The fact that they believe sun sets in a muddy pond, is irrelevant. I will NEVER EVER attack this or ridicule it, because that is the religious and cultural belief. And if it wasn't a violent ideology, advocating murder of infidels, non-muslims, opression of women, and its founder was not the way he was, I franly would not care.


Christianity has also murdered and tortured infidels, adopted a violent idealogy, and has oppressed women as well....

So now that it's illegal to do so, suddenly that renders Christianity's history non existant ?







Originally posted by lil bitchiness
DO NOT ever imply that my approach to Islam correlates to your approach to Christianity in any way, because frankly, that is extreamly offencive to me.



No, our approaches DO differ.....


While you are a bit more serious, hateful, and angry at Islam......and make no effort to sugarcoat, I at least joke around so that the level of aggression stays to a minimum.

Originally posted by Nellinator
And atheist were chopping heads off like crazy in the French Revolution. Its the ugly head of human nature not religion.


True, except for that fact that Atheism gives no direct permission to do these things, while Christianity and Islam do....the Bible and Quran both promote violence against those who are different.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
True, except for that fact that Atheism gives no direct permission to do these things, while Christianity and Islam do....the Bible and Quran both promote violence against those who are different.
Not really. Punishment is only justified for breaches of Law for those who live under the Law. Since the Law has been replaced by Jesus's covenant justification for any of it is really non-existant within the Bible. However, human nature automatically rejects people for being different and you will find that no matter where you look, whether is religious or otherwise.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Not really. Punishment is only justified for breaches of Law for those who live under the Law. Since the Law has been replaced by Jesus's covenant justification for any of it is really non-existant within the Bible. However, human nature automatically rejects people for being different and you will find that no matter where you look, whether is religious or otherwise.

The new covenant is far tougher then the old one. Now if you think a sin, you have done that sin. Therefore, to say that you are not under the law is pure ignorance. Fortunately, I don't believe in any of that stuff.

The Law is different from law. The capital L differentiates between the OT Law in the Torah and current laws. Jesus did not create 'laws' really. He more created and offered a better way of living, a way to free of even thinking about sinful things. And since you correctly believe that wrongful thinking leads to wrongful actions you can see this as a good thing I am sure.

No, christianity and judaism, have decapitated non-believers, they don't now becasue it's illegal.
Individual Jews or Christians may've beheaded enemies (the only account of a Jewish beheading I am aware of is Esau getting his noggin lopped off in battle), but AFAIK there is nothing in either theology which justifies/acknowledges beheading as a formal punishment. And as Nellinator said, "atheists were chopping heads off like crazy in the French Revolution. Its the ugly head of human nature not religion."

And Jesus was also a devout believer in the Torah, and no where in the Torah is beheading justified.

Originally posted by lord xyz
they don't now becasue it's illegal.
You're full of shit.

Originally posted by Nellinator
The Law is different from law...

If you say so.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If you say so.
As long as we got that clear

Originally posted by Nellinator
Not really. Punishment is only justified for breaches of Law for those who live under the Law. Since the Law has been replaced by Jesus's covenant justification for any of it is really non-existant within the Bible. However, human nature automatically rejects people for being different and you will find that no matter where you look, whether is religious or otherwise. Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The new covenant is far tougher then the old one. Now if you think a sin, you have done that sin. Therefore, to say that you are not under the law is pure ignorance. Fortunately, I don't believe in any of that stuff. Originally posted by Nellinator
The Law is different from law. The capital L differentiates between the OT Law in the Torah and current laws. Jesus did not create 'laws' really. He more created and offered a better way of living, a way to free of even thinking about sinful things. And since you correctly believe that wrongful thinking leads to wrongful actions you can see this as a good thing I am sure. The Bible states that Christ "fulfilled" the Law. It also states that not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the Law "till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18). The term "all" as it is used in the biblical verse is not limited to the Law being fulfilled, my interpretation of the verse is that the Law will not pass away until all of God's plan is fulfilled (Luke 24:44). If the verse were in reference to only the Law, then the term "all" would have been replaced with "all the law." Also, to fulfill does not necessitate an end. Christ clarifies this fallacy by stating, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17).



Now, Christ did not alter the law in any manner, the beatitudes and the counsel following them are a rather deep and meaningful discussion that need to be carefully pondered and meditated over to truly understand.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
True, except for that fact that Atheism gives no direct permission to do these things, while Christianity and Islam do....the Bible and Quran both promote violence against those who are different. Christ clarified the Law, giving a guideline to who was capable of delivering punishment within the law, that only an individual without sin was worthy of judging whether another had sinned (John 8:7). The Jews had lost sight of who could impose the consequences of the Law. God's prophet had set up those who could judge minor cases. If a case was deserving of a harsh penalty the case was moved up from a lower judge to a higher judge, and so on until the judgement was made by the prophet following God's counsel on the subject. People were not killed or handled in a violent manner prior to the case reaching the prophet, and the prophet did not mete out the sentence, he received the sentence for such from God. And Nellinator is correct, the consequences of the Law only applied to those that had agreed to live under the Law, or were Hebrew. Hebrews were never condemned to remain Hebrews, they could always leave the nation should they choose.






Here are the quotations for my post, I will not bother sifting through the Law of Moses to find the verses supporting my final comments, but if you wish to learn about the Law of Moses, and you must read the entire Law to grasp some of the nuances, the books for reference are:

Exodus (Ex.) (Chapters 19-40)

Leviticus (Lev.) (Mainly laws dealing with clergy, but as with all the books on Law there are various general laws presented)

Numbers (Num.) (Numbers is mainly population control and genealogy, but it does have some of the general law contained therein.)

Deuteronomy (Deut.) (A combination of record of the Hebrew conquest of the land that becomes Israel, laws dealing with support of priests, and covenants between Israel and God. The conquest of Israel should be considered war and not general acceptability of these behaviors in other situations. Deuteronomy ends with Moses' leaving.)

Originally posted by FeceMan
You're full of shit. Haha, you don't need to tell me. I unlike a lot of people here, re-read my posts and know when I'm being stupid.

Originally posted by FeceMan
You're full of shit.

aren't you made of shit? (FeceMan kinda implies that doesn't it)

Originally posted by Regret
The Bible states that Christ "fulfilled" the Law. It also states that not one jot or tittle shall pass away from the Law "till all be fulfilled" (Matthew 5:18). The term "all" as it is used in the biblical verse is not limited to the Law being fulfilled, my interpretation of the verse is that the Law will not pass away until all of God's plan is fulfilled (Luke 24:44). If the verse were in reference to only the Law, then the term "all" would have been replaced with "all the law." Also, to fulfill does not necessitate an end. Christ clarifies this fallacy by stating, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matthew 5:17).



Now, Christ did not alter the law in any manner, the beatitudes and the counsel following them are a rather deep and meaningful discussion that need to be carefully pondered and meditated over to truly understand.

Christ clarified the Law, giving a guideline to who was capable of delivering punishment within the law, that only an individual without sin was worthy of judging whether another had sinned (John 8:7). The Jews had lost sight of who could impose the consequences of the Law. God's prophet had set up those who could judge minor cases. If a case was deserving of a harsh penalty the case was moved up from a lower judge to a higher judge, and so on until the judgement was made by the prophet following God's counsel on the subject. People were not killed or handled in a violent manner prior to the case reaching the prophet, and the prophet did not mete out the sentence, he received the sentence for such from God. And Nellinator is correct, the consequences of the Law only applied to those that had agreed to live under the Law, or were Hebrew. Hebrews were never condemned to remain Hebrews, they could always leave the nation should they choose.






Here are the quotations for my post, I will not bother sifting through the Law of Moses to find the verses supporting my final comments, but if you wish to learn about the Law of Moses, and you must read the entire Law to grasp some of the nuances, the books for reference are:

Exodus (Ex.) (Chapters 19-40)

Leviticus (Lev.) (Mainly laws dealing with clergy, but as with all the books on Law there are various general laws presented)

Numbers (Num.) (Numbers is mainly population control and genealogy, but it does have some of the general law contained therein.)

Deuteronomy (Deut.) (A combination of record of the Hebrew conquest of the land that becomes Israel, laws dealing with support of priests, and covenants between Israel and God. The conquest of Israel should be considered war and not general acceptability of these behaviors in other situations. Deuteronomy ends with Moses' leaving.)
Yes, the Law still has importance, however, some of it is changed. Unclean foods, punishments, etc. However, the moral principles of the Law remain. I believe that the Law was fulfilled upon the resurrection.

I think it's also important to note that Christ himself fulfilled the Law, to allow salvation for mankind. Since he did this, there is no longer a need for any man to attempt to do so by himself. Our responsability as Christians is to first have faith in Christ, and let him perform all of the works through us.

Originally posted by Thundar
I think it's also important to note that Christ himself fulfilled the Law, to allow salvation for mankind. Since he did this, there is no longer a need for any man to attempt to do so by himself. Our responsability as Christians is to first have faith in Christ, and let him perform all of the works through us.


That sounds very comforting, but considering the fact that Christianity has been the major religion for centuries, and much violence and oppression has occured from now until way back, I'd rather not depend on "Christ".....

Originally posted by Mindship
And Jesus was also a devout believer in the Torah, and no where in the Torah is beheading justified.


No....stoning, burning, and simple killing will do just fine according to the Old Testament

Originally posted by Thundar
I think it's also important to note that Christ himself fulfilled the Law, to allow salvation for mankind. Since he did this, there is no longer a need for any man to attempt to do so by himself. Our responsability as Christians is to first have faith in Christ, and let him perform all of the works through us.
Indeed.
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances (the Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross." Colossians 2:13-14

"For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.... Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ, unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being freely justified by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to a be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God..." Romans 3:20-25

The law was definitely fulfilled and made better through Jesus. Jesus justifies us through His blood. The law justifies no one.

So far you have all given your point of views on the validity of a religion, but that is not what I am asking you.....


I am asking you why do so many of you lack empathy ? Why do you lack the ability to see through the eyes of the other person ?


I understand why you beleive what you beleive....I don't care about that, save all that for another thread


What I am asking you is how do you expect another person to drop thier beleifs and beleive in yours, when they probably have as MUCH reason and justification for thier beleifs as you do yours ?

EDIT

Originally posted by Nellinator
EDIT


What was your argument ? Don't be shy.....

It wasn't an argument. I just assume that the above post wasn't directed at me because I think we reached an agreement of the first page of this thread. The only reason this thread continues is because some people don't give straight answers.

sounds just like certain deities

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

What I am asking you is how do you expect another person to drop thier beleifs and beleive in yours, when they probably have as MUCH reason and justification for thier beleifs as you do yours ?

Quite honestly? We believe we're right, same as anyone else. Why do a large number of atheists think that they need to "enlighten " those who are "blinded" by religion? Why does anyone think that anyone else should ascribe to their beliefs? They think they're right, and think that the truth is important.

actually most atheist dont give a rats ass about what others believe, they dont have this huge urge to butt in and tell others how to live their life unlike certain aspect of a religious followers.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No....stoning, burning, and simple killing will do just fine according to the Old Testament

My feeling is, the Bible needs to be interpreted on many levels, as it includes many aspects of life during ancient times. Sure, a lot of it is primitive and brutal, but 3000 years from now, what will Humankind make of our behavior, for all the goodness we profess?

I personally am not convinced (not yet, anyway ) that there can not be any people with genuine vision, now or back then.

but the word of god as an omnipotent being how can that omnipotent being not see how people in the future look at things, how can it fall out of date when it should be the work of this so called omnipotent omnipresence being....................word of a god has to be interpreted just as it is written......an eye for an eye.........or turn the other cheek

Really? All of the ones I've meant have tried to tell me how stupid I am, so you'll forgive me if I doubt.


Originally posted by finti
but the word of god as an omnipotent being how can that omnipotent being not see how people in the future look at things, how can it fall out of date when it should be the work of this so called omnipotent omnipresence being....................word of a god has to be interpreted just as it is written......an eye for an eye.........or turn the other cheek

The Old Testament is more of a warning than anything. It's meant as a "Be glad you don't have to live like this anymore." And, "turn the other cheek" should be understood in cultural context. In Jewish culture, the left side was considered "evil", thus to strike someone with your left hand or on the left side of their body was to make yourself "unclean", outcast. Thus, without a weapon, the only way to "legally" hit someone was to backhand them. Thus, if you "turned the other cheek", your abuser could not strike you without making himself "unclean".

The Bible is not meant to be read literally in all places. Much of the Old Testament is poetry, with all of the literary techniques that implies. Jesus himself said that His words would need to be reinterpreted as the world changed. Things like rules for slavery and divorce, which made sense in his day and age, no longer do, and as such must be discarded or altered. (If anyone wants to hear my rationalization for that in religious context, PM me.)

Originally posted by Nellinator
It wasn't an argument. I just assume that the above post wasn't directed at me because I think we reached an agreement of the first page of this thread. The only reason this thread continues is because some people don't give straight answers.


It wasn't directed at you, and yes no one else besides you has really given a straight answer.


Regret has such repeated why he beleives what he beleives, but has only concluded that he doesn't expect the rest of us to beleive what he says. He expects us to find out what he deems "the truth" eventually and on our own.


Lil B has just continued her same bullshit with me about how she thinks I'm bashing Christianity again, and no one else has really gotten to the point.

then you met the ones who actually are more agnostic than atheist, cause atheist dont give a **** about beliefs, real atheist that is all they say is that there is no god end of discussion.

rules of slavery, ironic that a loving god allowed such features for its creation and that it got written down it whats supposed to be its(gods) word, what loving god would allow slavery in the first place

Originally posted by finti
but the word of god as an omnipotent being how can that omnipotent being not see how people in the future look at things, how can it fall out of date when it should be the work of this so called omnipotent omnipresence being....................word of a god has to be interpreted just as it is written......an eye for an eye.........or turn the other cheek

However it is interpreted, the Bible's existence and durability says something very true and deep about human beings, even if it is our doggedness in pursuing a work of fiction.

I think the more fundamental question to ask oneself is: regardless of religious upbringing, do you believe that the universe could have a spiritual/divine/transempirical dimension to it (do you believe that the Universe, as a whole, could be conscious)? Once you answer that, then the Bible is interpreted in that context.

Just because the Bible is fiction does not render it any less of wisdom.....much fiction throughout history has peices of truth and wisdom loaded into its stiching.


I think the only foolish part of Christianity is the beleif that the Bible is completely infallible.

so does the poems of edda which is prior to the norse mythology.....so what

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Just because the Bible is fiction does not render it any less of wisdom.....much fiction throughout history has peices of truth and wisdom loaded into its stiching.


I think the only foolish part of Christianity is the beleif that the Bible is completely infallible.

Then...we have no quarrel. The Bible cannot be taken literally in all instances. Even Christ used parables to teach. Understand that, contrary to popular belief, believing in the infallibility of the Bible is not neccesary to the Christian faith.

Originally posted by Jadyn
Then...we have no quarrel. The Bible cannot be taken literally in all instances. Even Christ used parables to teach. Understand that, contrary to popular belief, believing in the infallibility of the Bible is not neccesary to the Christian faith.


Very incorrect position Jadyn. Literal and metaphorical are only words used by man. Some of the scriptures are easier to understand to us, due to them being more practical and easier to apply to the natural world than others. God's interpretation of the them, however, should always be thought of as consistant and infallible. To allude to possible fallibility of God or his word is not a Christian position. As Christians, we are expected to have faith in God, as well as in his word. Seeing as how Samuel so graciously puts it..

2 Samuel 22 v 31:
"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless.

Originally posted by Thundar

2 Samuel 22 v 31:
"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless.

Cynicysm 22 v 31:
"As for Symmetric Chaos, his way is perfect; the word of Symmetric Chaos is flawless"

you need to find a way to actually prove the point

a person can write anything even if it's not true

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Cynicysm 22 v 31:
"As for Symmetric Chaos, his way is perfect; the word of Symmetric Chaos is flawless"

you need to find a way to actually prove the point

a person can write anything even if it's not true


And how am I presenting my "point" any differently then yours? Obviously this is a rhetorical question. So anyway, all I have to do is present the truth. It's up to you and others to have faith in the truth that's been presented to you.

Originally posted by finti
so does the poems of edda which is prior to the norse mythology.....so what
Mythologies, poems, etc: if they've endured through history, they are all saying something very profound about the human condition. To dismiss any of these things simply because a particular person or group of people has found them disappointing, inconsistent or difficult to understand says more about that person or people than these enduring tales.

Originally posted by Mindship
Mythologies, poems, etc: if they've endured through history, they are all saying something very profound about the human condition. To dismiss any of these things simply because a particular person or group of people has found them disappointing, inconsistent or difficult to understand says more about that person or people than these enduring tales.


I don't think that there's anything wrong with a good fictional story every now and again, so long as an individual knows the story is fictional.

Some have some basis in fact.

There Is nothing wrong with a good fictional story: it's "good" because we connect to it in an important way, whether it highlights something terrific about us or the world or elucidates some flaw. In either case, we can always benefit from self-knowledge.

Originally posted by Mindship
There Is nothing wrong with a good fictional story: it's "good" because we connect to it in an important way, whether it highlights something terrific about us or the world or elucidates some flaw. In either case, we can always benefit from self-knowledge.


But how does one benefit if they inherit the world, but loose God? And wouldn't life be more fulfilling for all people, if everyone strived to put other's needs first before their own?

Left in bold bracket
Double positive
Colon and comma misuse

Originally posted by Thundar
But how does one benefit if they inherit the world, but loose God? And wouldn't life be more fulfilling for all people, if everyone strived to put other's needs first before their own?


Setting aside, for the moment, what you mean by "God," I would say that it is not an either/or situation. You can have both. And absolutely: the world would be so much nicer if people lived with respect and compassion for others. Often I've said that nothing makes God happier than when we are nice to each other, heck, even if we choose not to believe in "Him" (I've also said that That is what makes us His ultimate creation: a being which can actively choose not to believe. How's that for a divine sense of humor).

IMO, the Biblical God is a creation of Man, a representation of something about us and the world so deep, so profound, that our limited conscious minds can not even begin to grasp this Reality anymore than bacteria can grasp string theory. But even more fundamentally, I would refer anyone back to my question from a prior post: one should ask oneself what they believe the ultimate nature of the universe to be, regardless of religious upbringing: whether it is purely as empirical science depicts it or whether there is something more, something empirical science can not touch.

Once a person establishes, for themselves, what they believe the Absolute to be, they've provided for themselves a starting point, a frame of reference, through which everything else takes on meaning. And given all the damage and animosity organized religion has done over the centuries, I don't think the Bible alone should be that starting point, not when exploring the reality/fiction of "God" (other things, like how we should treat each other, can take on importance independent of that central issue, though they don't have to).

Sorry for rambling.

Originally posted by Thundar
I don't think that there's anything wrong with a good fictional story every now and again, so long as an individual knows the story is fictional.

I can agree with that

Originally posted by Mindship
Setting aside, for the moment, what you mean by "God," I would say that it is not an either/or situation. You can have both. And absolutely: the world would be so much nicer if people lived with respect and compassion for others. Often I've said that nothing makes God happier than when we are nice to each other, heck, even if we choose not to believe in "Him" (I've also said that That is what makes us His ultimate creation: a being which can actively choose not to believe. How's that for a divine sense of humor).

IMO, the Biblical God is a creation of Man, a representation of something about us and the world so deep, so profound, that our limited conscious minds can not even begin to grasp this Reality anymore than bacteria can grasp string theory. But even more fundamentally, I would refer anyone back to my question from a prior post: one should ask oneself what they believe the ultimate nature of the universe to be, regardless of religious upbringing: whether it is purely as empirical science depicts it or whether there is something more, something empirical science can not touch.

Once a person establishes, for themselves, what they believe the Absolute to be, they've provided for themselves a starting point, a frame of reference, through which everything else takes on meaning. And given all the damage and animosity organized religion has done over the centuries, I don't think the Bible alone should be that starting point, not when exploring the reality/fiction of "God" (other things, like how we should treat each other, can take on importance independent of that central issue, though they don't have to).


Hmmm. You make an interesting argument. But unfortunately I don't concur. IMO..If one doesn't believe in God, then to be quite frank, they really don't believe in love. True love can only be demonstrated by loving those who don't love you, as well as through sacrifice. These two things will unfortunately leave one presented with an either/or situation at some point within their lives. Specifically, those scenarios where one must ask themselves the question.."Should I choose what makes me happy knowing what that my choice is wrong, or should I choose what makes someone else happy, knowing that my choice is right?"(or vice/versa)

So although I'm quite certain that God is definitely pleased when we've made a good decision that makes us or another happy/nice, I think it pleases him much more so when we make a good(or righteous) decision, which doesn't entail one receiving any benefit at all.

This type of love, is generally defined as being unconditional. And was/is the type of love demonstrated by Jesus on the cross.

I also believe that you're putting way too much emphasis on man being the "ultimate creation", as oppossed to God being the ultimate creator. Love is about sharing all of the good things one possesses, so naturally..God being the "ultimate creator" and truly loving, would want to share everything that he possesses with others.

So in IMO..I don't believe that life itself is about man determining the absoluteness of God and his love, but instead..it is about God demonstrating the absoluteness of his perfect-unconditional love to mankind.



Originally posted by Mindship
Sorry for rambling.


No problem..as you can see from above, I do a lot of that myself..


For the sake of clarification

Originally posted by Thundar
Hmmm. You make an interesting argument. But unfortunately I don't concur. IMO..If one doesn't believe in God, then to be quite frank, they really don't believe in love. True love can only be demonstrated by loving those who don't love you, as well as through sacrifice. These two things will unfortunately leave one presented with an either/or situation at some point within their lives. Specifically, those scenarios where one must ask themselves the question.."Should I choose what makes me happy knowing what that my choice is wrong, or should I choose what makes someone else happy, knowing that my choice is right?"(or vice/versa)

So although I'm quite certain that God is definitely pleased when we've made a good decision that makes us or another happy/nice, I think it pleases him much more so when we make a good(or righteous) decision, which doesn't entail one receiving any benefit at all.

This type of love, is generally defined as being unconditional. And was/is the type of love demonstrated by Jesus on the cross.

I also believe that you're putting way too much emphasis on man being the "ultimate creation", as oppossed to God being the ultimate creator. Love is about sharing all of the good things one possesses, so naturally..God being the "ultimate creator" and truly loving, would want to share everything that he possesses with others.

So in IMO..I don't believe that life itself is about man determining the absoluteness of God and his love, but instead..it is about God demonstrating the absoluteness of his perfect-unconditional love to mankind.

God as unconditional love? I agree. And "He" doesn't end there.

Doing good simply because it is the right thing to do, and not to gain benefit? I agree. Nothing makes God happier.

God as ultimate creator? Again, I agree (leaving aside for the moment what you mean by God), though I don't see any problem in also emphasizing the sublime humor in his apparently most unique creation (us).

Though we don't see eye to eye on all things, my feeling is, we're not that far apart, either.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

I beleive in the power of the mind, and what wondors it can do.
Can the mind bend the laws of physics? Can it cause miraculous healings, with absolutely no ministration from a doctor?



Such as...Until recently, most great medical and scientific advances were made by Theists or Deists. Penicillin? A Christian. Quantum Mechanics? An agnostic-ish deist. Nanotechnology? A Christian.




You assert your position with the same amount of "concrete proof". Why, then, should we give up our faith?



Really? That's odd...because when Missionaries found an isolated South American tribe and began to tell them about Christ, they responded "We know all this. We know of this God, we were just waiting for someone to tell us His name." Stories like this have happened a hundred times over on multiple continents.

Originally posted by Mindship
God as unconditional love? I agree. And "He" doesn't end there.

Doing good simply because it is the right thing to do, and not to gain benefit? I agree. Nothing makes God happier.

God as ultimate creator? Again, I agree (leaving aside for the moment what you mean by God), though I don't see any problem in also emphasizing the sublime humor in his apparently most unique creation (us).

Though we don't see eye to eye on all things, my feeling is, we're not that far apart, either.


I understand your position, and I do respect it..particularly since you have presented it so well. But unfortunately, we're on different sides of the totem pole with this argument.

My position is God centered, or distinctly expressed by the belief that God possesses sole control of man's destiny. Yours is man-centered, or expressed by the belief that man completely controls this destiny.

So once again, we have both presented ourselves with an either/or situation. Either we have choosen God to direct our lives, or we have choosen this world to do it (choosing this world of course, includes us making decisions for ourselves).

IMO..one can still find a modest amount of happiness and contentment with this world, but at some point they must recognize that something much greater than this world exists, which is an eternal relationship with God. After all, he did create the world didn't he?

Let me clarify what I mean a bit. Think about things from this perspective. Let's say I was your "lady", and you gave me a diamond ring, wouldn't you be a bit disappointed if I fawned over the ring instead of the one who gave it to me? Or how about if I stated to you that the ring created itself, and I was the one who made you give me the ring? I'm sure that wouldn't make you feel too good. Now if I continued to over-empasize the importance of the ring throughout our relationship, you'd probably end up dumping me. You'd be thinking.."What's wrong with this broad, I give the woman a gift..and she's completely forgotten about all that I went through to give her this gift."

Fortunately for you(or maybe unfortunately big guy..) I ain't your lady. But on a logical, spiritual and emotional level, I'm sure that if I was, it would make much more sense if I fawned over you, instead of the ring.

So anyway, I'm rambling again..but I think you get the point.

Please note that all of this is not a sermon. Just a thought.

Originally posted by Jadyn
Can the mind bend the laws of physics? Can it cause miraculous healings, with absolutely no ministration from a doctor?

Such as...Until recently, most great medical and scientific advances were made by Theists or Deists. Penicillin? A Christian. Quantum Mechanics? An agnostic-ish deist. Nanotechnology? A Christian.

You assert your position with the same amount of "concrete proof". Why, then, should we give up our faith?

Really? That's odd...because when Missionaries found an isolated South American tribe and began to tell them about Christ, they responded "We know all this. We know of this God, we were just waiting for someone to tell us His name." Stories like this have happened a hundred times over on multiple continents.

do you really want to take on Urizen?

Originally posted by Thundar
My position is God centered, or distinctly expressed by the belief that God possesses sole control of man's destiny. Yours is man-centered, or expressed by the belief that man completely controls this destiny.
Ah, now I understand better how you see my position. Allow me to approach this from a more personal angle.
I did not mean to imply that it is up to Man to decide whether God exists or not. Basically, my POV is God-centered, though "God" likely means different things to you and I. Without going off into cliche-sounding details, suffice to say that for me, the Biblical God is the merest glimpse of an infinitely grander and ineffable Reality.

IMO..one can still find a modest amount of happiness and contentment with this world, but at some point they must recognize that something much greater than this world exists, which is an eternal relationship with God. After all, he did create the world didn't he?
Again, this seems to highlight that we likely see "God" differently. That aside, I agree with you.

Please note that all of this is not a sermon. Just a thought.

I know, because the manner in which you express your thoughts says more for you POV than your actual words (I hope that came out right cuz it was meant to be a compliment).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
do you really want to take on Urizen?


Bah, I was scanning this thread and others on the forum and this Urizen was easily defeated by supdude. He made Urizen and everyone else look pretty bad, and he was doing so using bad grammar and smilies!! That's probably why he was banned. I hope someone else like him joins the forum. He definitely made things interesting.

EDIT: Wrong verb tense

Originally posted by Thundar
Bah, I was scanning this thread and others on the forum and this Urizen was easily defeated by supdude. He made Urizen and everyone else look pretty bad, and he was doing so using bad grammar and smilies!! That's probably why he was banned. I hope someone else like him joins the forum. He definitely made things interesting.

EDIT: Wrong verb tense



Where was I defeated by supdude ? He's a damn sock !

Originally posted by Jadyn
Can the mind bend the laws of physics? Can it cause miraculous healings, with absolutely no ministration from a doctor?



http://www.mindhealingmiracles.com/


www.bodymindspirithealing.com


www.dreamhealer.com


google Adam + Dreamhealer

Also, google the Survivors of AIDS people who have been healed of this horrid disease, without the "help of God" simply through positive outlook, self care, and healthy diet.






Originally posted by Jadyn
Such as...Until recently, most great medical and scientific advances were made by Theists or Deists. Penicillin? A Christian. Quantum Mechanics? An agnostic-ish deist. Nanotechnology? A Christian.



Atheist Scientists:


Steven Weinberg:founder of electroweak force


Steven Arthur Pinker advocacy of evolutionary psychology and the computational theory of mind


William Donald "Bill" Hamilton was a British evolutionary biologist, considered one of the greatest evolutionary theorists of the 20th century


Sean M. Carroll is a senior research associate in the Department of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. He is a theoretical cosmologist specializing in dark energy and general relativity.




What's your point ? All I said was that there are Atheists who have made wondorful contributions to the world....you take that was a personal attack, that's your problem.




Originally posted by Jadyn
You assert your position with the same amount of "concrete proof". Why, then, should we give up our faith?



I'm not asking you too



why are you changing the subject ? You are going off topic here.....I am asking you how do you expect ME or any other non beleiver to drop what we beleive and just go along with your beleifs ?

Can you answer that before you start with the irrelevant attacks ? Thanks






Originally posted by Jadyn
Really? That's odd...because when Missionaries found an isolated South American tribe and began to tell them about Christ, they responded "We know all this. We know of this God, we were just waiting for someone to tell us His name." Stories like this have happened a hundred times over on multiple continents.





How do you know it wasn't Christian propaganda ? People can tell you whatever they want. If you are that gullible, then its no wondor you submit to the contradictions of the Bible.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
google Adam + Dreamhealer

Also, google the Survivors of AIDS people who have been healed of this horrid disease, without the "help of God" simply through positive outlook, self care, and healthy diet.


The premise of ur logistical conclusion is INVALID. YOU HAVE no abilit to DETERMINE if they WERE HEALED SPIRITUALLLY, SINCE their IS NO NATURAL WAY TO MEASURE HEALLING PERFORMED BY SUPERNATURAL MEANS.

Poor CONCLUSION




Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Atheist Scientists:


Steven Weinberg:founder of electroweak force


Steven Arthur Pinker advocacy of evolutionary psychology and the computational theory of mind


William Donald "Bill" Hamilton was a British evolutionary biologist, considered one of the greatest evolutionary theorists of the 20th century


Sean M. Carroll is a senior research associate in the Department of Physics at the California Institute of Technology. He is a theoretical cosmologist specializing in dark energy and general relativity.




Isaac Newton the Newtonian Revolution Anglican (rejected Trinitarianism, i.e., Athanasianism;
believed in the Arianism of the Primitive Church)
Albert Einstein Twentieth-Century Science Jewish
Neils Bohr the Atom Jewish Lutheran
Charles Darwin Evolution Anglican (nominal); Unitarian
Louis Pasteur the Germ Theory of Disease Catholic
Galileo Galilei the New Science Catholic
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier the Revolution in Chemistry Catholic
Johannes Kepler Motion of the Planets Lutheran
Nicolaus Copernicus the Heliocentric Universe Catholic (priest)
James Clerk Maxwell the Electromagnetic Field Presbyterian; Anglican; Baptist
Claude Bernard the Founding of Modern Physiology
Werner Heisenberg Quantum Theory Lutheran
Linus Pauling Twentieth-Century Chemistry Lutheran
Erwin Schrodinger Wave Mechanics Catholic
Tycho Brahe the New Astronomy Lutheran


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What's your point ? All I said was that there are Atheists who have made wondorful contributions to the world....you take that was a personal attack, that's your problem.



Both Atheists and tehiest have made VALUABLE contributions to SCIENCE. But that still doesnt take away from ATEHEISM BEING A FATALLY FLAWED BELEIF SYSTEM. I DONT HATE teh PERSON who PRACTICES ATEHEISM. I just dont like the FACT that such a BELEIF SYSTEM BASICALLY DISRESPECTS GOD WITH ITS PHILOSOPHIES, and discrediting, DENYING AND INSULTING his OBVIOUS EXISTENCE.



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
why are you changing the subject ? You are going off topic here.....I am asking you how do you expect ME or any other non beleiver to drop what we beleive and just go along with your beleifs ?

Can you answer that before you start with the irrelevant attacks ? Thanks


he did NOT ATTACK YOU. he expressed his BELEIFS. you are both ENTITLED TO DO THIS. but only one of your BELEIF SYSTEMS IS CORRECTS. NO ONE HAS TO FORCE YOU TO CHANGE. ITS UP TO YOU TO WANT TO CHANGE.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How do you know it wasn't Christian propaganda ? People can tell you whatever they want. If you are that gullible, then its no wondor you submit to the contradictions of the Bible.




logical fallicy of ignorant self SERVING CONCLUSIONS.

Jus cause he doesnt BELEIF IN WAHT YOU BELEIF, hes gullible...

THATS a silly argument. Maybe he BELEIVES WHAT HE BELEIVES CAUSE HE LOVES WHAT HE READS IN THE BIBLE, JUZ LIKE ME. Not everyone is LIKE YOU. People make CHOICES indpendant of what ur logic, based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. assume that everyone who doesn't CHOOSE WHAT YOU HAVE CHOOSEN HAS MADE A CHOICE CAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO DO SO IS THE HEIGHT OF ALL IGNORANCE, CONCEIT, AND IMMATURITY.

You failed in ur ARGUMENT!! BUT I HOPE U'VE LEARNED SOMETHING.

Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
The premise of ur logistical conclusion is INVALID. YOU HAVE no abilit to DETERMINE if they WERE HEALED SPIRITUALLLY, SINCE their IS NO NATURAL WAY TO MEASURE HEALLING PERFORMED BY SUPERNATURAL MEANS.

Poor CONCLUSION








Isaac Newton the Newtonian Revolution Anglican (rejected Trinitarianism, i.e., Athanasianism;
believed in the Arianism of the Primitive Church)
Albert Einstein Twentieth-Century Science Jewish
Neils Bohr the Atom Jewish Lutheran
Charles Darwin Evolution Anglican (nominal); Unitarian
Louis Pasteur the Germ Theory of Disease Catholic
Galileo Galilei the New Science Catholic
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier the Revolution in Chemistry Catholic
Johannes Kepler Motion of the Planets Lutheran
Nicolaus Copernicus the Heliocentric Universe Catholic (priest)
James Clerk Maxwell the Electromagnetic Field Presbyterian; Anglican; Baptist
Claude Bernard the Founding of Modern Physiology
Werner Heisenberg Quantum Theory Lutheran
Linus Pauling Twentieth-Century Chemistry Lutheran
Erwin Schrodinger Wave Mechanics Catholic
Tycho Brahe the New Astronomy Lutheran





Both Atheists and tehiest have made VALUABLE contributions to SCIENCE. But that still doesnt take away from ATEHEISM BEING A FATALLY FLAWED BELEIF SYSTEM. I DONT HATE teh PERSON who PRACTICES ATEHEISM. I just dont like the FACT that such a BELEIF SYSTEM BASICALLY DISRESPECTS GOD WITH ITS PHILOSOPHIES, and discrediting, DENYING AND INSULTING his OBVIOUS EXISTENCE.





he did NOT ATTACK YOU. he expressed his BELEIFS. you are both ENTITLED TO DO THIS. but only one of your BELEIF SYSTEMS IS CORRECTS. NO ONE HAS TO FORCE YOU TO CHANGE. ITS UP TO YOU TO WANT TO CHANGE.





logical fallicy of ignorant self SERVING CONCLUSIONS.

Jus cause he doesnt BELEIF IN WAHT YOU BELEIF, hes gullible...

THATS a silly argument. Maybe he BELEIVES WHAT HE BELEIVES CAUSE HE LOVES WHAT HE READS IN THE BIBLE, JUZ LIKE ME. Not everyone is LIKE YOU. People make CHOICES indpendant of what ur logic, based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. assume that everyone who doesn't CHOOSE WHAT YOU HAVE CHOOSEN HAS MADE A CHOICE CAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO DO SO IS THE HEIGHT OF ALL IGNORANCE, CONCEIT, AND IMMATURITY.

You failed in ur ARGUMENT!! BUT I HOPE U'VE LEARNED SOMETHING.

PWNED!

you are a supdude sock aren't you? (ya know mildly retarded, has a 9 year old son, can't spell, speaks like he thinks he a gangsta)

The sockage around here has been ridiculous the last few months.

Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
The premise of ur logistical conclusion is INVALID. YOU HAVE no abilit to DETERMINE if they WERE HEALED SPIRITUALLLY, SINCE their IS NO NATURAL WAY TO MEASURE HEALLING PERFORMED BY SUPERNATURAL MEANS.




1) None of them gave credit to God....


2) There is more evidense for the existance of the mind then the existance of the spirit


3) Can you supply me with proof of spiritual healing ?


If not, then shut up....







Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
Isaac Newton the Newtonian Revolution Anglican (rejected Trinitarianism, i.e., Athanasianism;
believed in the Arianism of the Primitive Church)
Albert Einstein Twentieth-Century Science Jewish
Neils Bohr the Atom Jewish Lutheran
Charles Darwin Evolution Anglican (nominal); Unitarian
Louis Pasteur the Germ Theory of Disease Catholic
Galileo Galilei the New Science Catholic
Antoine Laurent Lavoisier the Revolution in Chemistry Catholic
Johannes Kepler Motion of the Planets Lutheran
Nicolaus Copernicus the Heliocentric Universe Catholic (priest)
James Clerk Maxwell the Electromagnetic Field Presbyterian; Anglican; Baptist
Claude Bernard the Founding of Modern Physiology
Werner Heisenberg Quantum Theory Lutheran
Linus Pauling Twentieth-Century Chemistry Lutheran
Erwin Schrodinger Wave Mechanics Catholic
Tycho Brahe the New Astronomy Lutheran




EVERYONE was Christian back then. You mention Copernicus, Galileo, and Charles Darwin who were threatened by the Church.


Galileo was threatened by the Spanish Inqiusition, to be burnt at the stake for his discoveries.


Their greatness has nothing to do with being Christian..in FACT, there discoveries contradicted the current Christian thinking....it all had to do with thier scientific minds.....which Christianity put a great struggle against.


Thanks for setting up your own trap




Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
Both Atheists and tehiest have made VALUABLE contributions to SCIENCE. But that still doesnt take away from ATEHEISM BEING A FATALLY FLAWED BELEIF SYSTEM. I DONT HATE teh PERSON who PRACTICES ATEHEISM. I just dont like the FACT that such a BELEIF SYSTEM BASICALLY DISRESPECTS GOD WITH ITS PHILOSOPHIES, and discrediting, DENYING AND INSULTING his OBVIOUS EXISTENCE.



His obvious existance ?


You must be schitzophrenic......prove he exists !



More have been killed and tortured in the name of God than anything else throughout History.







Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
he did NOT ATTACK YOU. he expressed his BELEIFS. you are both ENTITLED TO DO THIS. but only one of your BELEIF SYSTEMS IS CORRECTS. NO ONE HAS TO FORCE YOU TO CHANGE. ITS UP TO YOU TO WANT TO CHANGE.




I dont want to change. How about that ?





Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
THATS a silly argument. Maybe he BELEIVES WHAT HE BELEIVES CAUSE HE LOVES WHAT HE READS IN THE BIBLE, JUZ LIKE ME. Not everyone is LIKE YOU. People make CHOICES indpendant of what ur logic, based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. assume that everyone who doesn't CHOOSE WHAT YOU HAVE CHOOSEN HAS MADE A CHOICE CAUSE THEY WERE FORCED TO DO SO IS THE HEIGHT OF ALL IGNORANCE, CONCEIT, AND IMMATURITY.




When did I say he was forced ? WTF are you talkn about ????




Originally posted by YO_IMURBRO
You failed in ur ARGUMENT!! BUT I HOPE U'VE LEARNED SOMETHING.



I learned why I chose to begin arguing against Christianity. I feel I must make a contribution to end this cycle of ignorance.

Originally posted by Nellinator
The sockage around here has been ridiculous the last few months.


OMG ! tell me about it !



Yo_Imburbo is definately a sock ! Either supdude's or Usagi's.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
EVERYONE was Christian back then. You mention Copernicus, Galileo, and Charles Darwin who were threatened by the Church.


Galileo was threatened by the Spanish Inqiusition, to be burnt at the stake for his discoveries.


Their greatness has nothing to do with being Christian..in FACT, there discoveries contradicted the current Christian thinking....it all had to do with thier scientific minds.....which Christianity put a great struggle against.
Umm... That's only true for a select few of them. None of these guys are old. This is just a sampling and these are some of the most famous men in science. Tesla (perhaps the most genius man to ever live) was also a Christian.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
OMG ! tell me about it !



Yo_Imburbo is definately a sock ! Either supdude's or Usagi's. Add to that that supdude and Usagi were both socks and you've got a sock infestation. I'm also suspecting at least two current users are socks. However, one of these suspects is perfectly fine and I hope they just give up and let him stay until he actually deserves another banning.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

3) Can you supply me with proof of spiritual healing ?


If not, then shut up....

Yes, yes I can. You won't believe any of it, but I can give examples that I have witnessed.




The church didn't fight them because of the science. As I've explained somewhere else, there were several valid reasons for not accepting their discoveries. The first among them being a lack of concrete proof for their ideas.



yes, I forgot, it was the Christians who fought meaningless wars in ancient times, it was the Christians who slaughtered millions of Jews, and obviously the Christians who bomb buildings.

Forgive me, but that's a rather weak argument. Anyone can claim to be doing something "in the name of God." Most people don't take into account that there are several safeguards the church has setup to test and see if it really is. They just take the guy's word for it.




No one is forcing you to.



I've already pointed out that not all Christians are ignorant, and we don't all spout party lines and cliches when defending our faith. You stereotype us by the most vocal ones.

Originally posted by Jadyn

yes, I forgot, it was the Christians who fought meaningless wars in ancient times, it was the Christians who slaughtered millions of Jews, and obviously the Christians who bomb buildings.

people other than Christains can kill in the name of God (Muslim terrorists, Jews in the OT)

the crusaders were Christian, the conquistadors were Christian

Hitler was not an athiest (not a christian either, but he believed he was doing Gods work)

Theists have done a lot of damage in their time (not to say they haven't done good things too)

Originally posted by finti
but the word of god as an omnipotent being how can that omnipotent being not see how people in the future look at things, how can it fall out of date when it should be the work of this so called omnipotent omnipresence being....................word of a god has to be interpreted just as it is written......an eye for an eye.........or turn the other cheek

Wow that was quite intelligent.

watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63OkUcim8M0

those who think islam is spread by the sword watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciqH-ER157o

Originally posted by muslimscholar
those who think islam is spread by the sword watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciqH-ER157o

Well yes it was, read your history. The fact that some chick converted to Islam doesnt change a thing.

i have read my history there is nothing wrong with it and it wasent spread by the sword

Originally posted by muslimscholar
i have read my history there is nothing wrong with it and it wasent spread by the sword

Well how did the arabs become muslim?

Christians also converted people by the sword.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Christians also converted people by the sword.

.....and?

Originally posted by Alfheim
.....and?

No and, Christians and Muslims are a lot alike.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
No and, Christians and Muslims are a lot alike.

Yeah.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well how did the arabs become muslim?

name someone who was forced to becom a muslim

Originally posted by muslimscholar
name someone who was forced to becom a muslim

Michael Jackson...


hysterical

Originally posted by muslimscholar
name someone who was forced to becom a muslim

The city that Mohommad was originally from

He got thrown out then came back later and took it over with a muslim army

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The city that Mohommad was originally from

He got thrown out then came back later and took it over with a muslim army

he neva fought the city was surrended to the muslims read the history propely