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Fight takes place in Antarctica. 15 x 15 square miles. Ceiling limit is the upper atmosphere of the planet, no space.

Laminator_X


vs

Loot


vs

TricksterPriest


Participants will post their own write-ups.

This is the final match of the WildCard MiniTournament. Good luck to all. Now let the match begin.

This match will last until Saturday 2 PM US CENRTAL TIME unless otherwise specified.

I think this match could use more than one day.

Originally posted by Scoobless
I think this match could use more than one day.

I'm going to check on how far thread has gotten by the designated time, if the competitors request more time and I feel it is necessary, I will extend the match.

I've let other matches wildcard matches go on longer, but the some of competitors didn't show up or showed up at the very end of the match when most of the votes were already casted. I don't want a repeat.

Prep time: I have no illusions about beating these two at the same time. I know I'm the underdog in this fight. But I'm going to make a go of it and hope I can pull a rabbit out of my hat. First off, the team starts by gathering up snow. Then Death Gambit begins converting it into gas bombs, acid bombs, etc. Then Apocalypse creates more of the horse-sized burrowing worms from the last match, and has them begin undermining the glacier and digging a fallout shelter. The worms will dig around the fault lines of the glacier, which should weaken the ground for later.

The fight: Apocalypse engages a TP cloak, launches a large scale EMP wave, and Violator teleports several gas bombs, acid bombs, etc, into the area around Laminator's team. Naturally, I expect this to fail. However, at this point, Apoc will launch a TP attack on Mordo forcing him to divert his attention. Violator and Omega Red teleport into the middle of his team. Red immediately goes for Ecstasy, while Violator attacks Super skrull, while firing off an attack or two at Temugin and Fixer, who are temporarily neutralized by the EMP. (EMP also effects the rings btw.) If they start taking heavy damage, we teleport out. Their job is only to weaken them and keep them off-balance. Above all else, Baron Mordo must be killed first in that attack. I'm gambling Mordo is trying to set something up for Surfer as his first priority. Turtling might work, but not against a mage like Mordo or the power cosmic of Surfer. So I'm blitzing Laminator. Now, onto Loot. My only chance at beating Surfer is to mindrape him. I'm hoping Apocalypse&Violator's combined TP will be enough to render him unconscious. While this is going on, Venom& Death Gambit can rush his team mates, together with Omega Red, while Violator handles Spawn. My streets can beat his streets no problem, thanks to Prometheus's 30 martial artist's fighting skills. Worse comes to worse, the worms can run interference after they finish digging. I expect the worms to die quickly, maybe taking a street leveler or a meta if I get lucky. Their job is interference. If we can knock Surfer out with TP, and the early strike against Mordo succeeds, I have a chance. Alternatively, if Apoc sense Surfer speed-blitzing us, we'll go with the 2nd part of the plan first, and use the delaying tactics on Mordo until we're ready to go with his part of the plan. As a last resort, Apocalypse can cause an earthquake and smash the glacier apart by turning his arms into pistons and smashing along the fault lines. The chaos caused by that might buy us enough time to pull out a win. I'll levitate my crew out with Apoc's TP, and pick off the survivors.

Here's hoping I win. nopity

I'm busy at work today, and won't have time for this until this evening.

I promise not to read my distinguished competitors write-ups until I have posted my own. (I used the "End" key to get down to the reply box.)

Antarctica humm, cool too bad iceman is not on my team, fortunately heīs not fighting in here.

I would use my prep time to destroy some areas on the ground, and create invisible force fields in the ground, then i would covered them with snow, when the fight would start and my opponents were in thos areas, sue would make the invisible fields disappear and they would fall into the cold water.


My team would start the fight protected by sueīs force fields, and this time no one is going to take them with TP, the only guy who has TP is Apoc and my team knows it (nightcralwe form aoa knows well apoc), so surfer would speedblitz him, in honestly iīm not seeing apoc a big thread he doensīt seem in surferīs league. I donīt know much about mordo, but can he make a good fight against surfer? because in speed its obvious he cannot catch surfer, and in power i think the power cosmic will crush him, but i will wai on more info, right now iīm not seeing much trouble in fighting the heralds level.

The rest of the team, there is nothing temugin can do that spawn and violator canīt, and violator has lost in the past to spawn, spawn is superior, especially when he is protected by an invisible force field, he will not be detected and has the power to defeat them.
Omega red doensīt seem to have the power to cause much damage on sueīs force fields, she will use them as weapons to destroy him, super skrull is the most dangerous here, but his force fields have the power of sueīs original force fields, and in those days they were vulnerable to sonic attacks (donīt have scas to prove this but i think scoobs knows it we talked about this in our fight some confirmation?) since i have banshee i could use sound attacks to pass skrulls force field. If not the i have to use more power, and since sueīs force fields are tougher then skrull, iīm seeing him loosing to her and spawn.

Imagine what a invisible protected by force field, teleporting aoa nightcrawler would do to their team, before they could even Begin o fight he would teleport and cut their neck with his knives (two invisible teleporters, like nightcrawler and spawn attacking when not expected at all time, it would be a blood bath).

Venom is easy, he his vulnerable to sonic screams, banshee can take him out, the street meta arenīt a big problem because nightcralwe would be extremely fast taking them out. but both ras and nyssa arenīt on shang shy level, the others are tougher but taskmaster as seen scoobs team members fight, and stars and tony.

My main strategy basically is, deceiving my opponents with invisible force fields int he ground.
And in fighting strategy, i will have surfer speddblitz the heralds characters.
I will have a invisible protected by force fields team, and i will have banshee (since he is protected by a force field it will be difficult to take him out) using his sonic scream to cause Vocal Disorientation (ability to change someone’s balance, by affecting their equilibrium using his sonic scream) and Vocal Unconsciousness (ability to affect the fluid in someone’s ear causing the person to go unconscious),and if he has troubles with invisible woman shield he can create a Sonic Shield for protection.

and unless someone tell me that apoc and mordo can be more dangerous then i think, after surfer finishes them, he will come and help my team.

One word on Surfer. Mind-rape. Violator also has TP, and Surfer can't take a double TP assault on his mind. Hell, Dracula ****ed him up with TP, and Apoc owned Drac. Sue's fields have also been broken, and as proved in the Onslaught saga, do not protect against TP. This is first age Spawn btw, so he and Violator are roughly equal. In fact, Spawn never beat Violator outright until after Issue 50. After which point he had the Greenworld boost. Sonics bust the fields? Thanks. Apocalypse would definitely know that after the Onslaught saga, when Sue was unable to hold him with her fields. So what's stopping me from unleashing a sonic blast on her fields? You haven't answered how you can stop the death factor if I TP-attack Sue. Or how her fields can hold out against Violator, Venom, Death Gambit's toxins, and Apoc.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
One word on Surfer. Mind-rape. Violator also has TP, and Surfer can't take a double TP assault on his mind. Hell, Dracula ****ed him up with TP, and Apoc owned Drac. Sue's fields have also been broken, and as proved in the Onslaught saga, do not protect against TP. This is first age Spawn btw, so he and Violator are roughly equal. In fact, Spawn never beat Violator outright until after Issue 50. After which point he had the Greenworld boost. Sonics bust the fields? Thanks. Apocalypse would definitely know that after the Onslaught saga, when Sue was unable to hold him with her fields. So what's stopping me from unleashing a sonic blast on her fields? You haven't answered how you can stop the death factor if I TP-attack Sue. Or how her fields can hold out against Violator, Venom, Death Gambit's toxins, and Apoc.

about dracula come on your kidding, firelord beat spiderman.

Surfer has fought god like cable, why would he have a problem with apocīs telepathy? he would not.

I think sonics scream affected sueīs force fields int he begining not now (in the begining of the comics she could only be invisible or have a force field not the two at the same time, she has evolved a lot since those days, and since skrull has invisible womans powers at a early stage i remebered this).
Apoc wonīt do nothing to sue because he will have to deal with sufer, heīs not on surfer levelīs of power and most important speed, heīs not capable of defeating him, surfer beat cable he will beat apoc quite fast.

Why would spawn murder violator? because not only his best then him, but he has a sue force field protecting him, he has an advantage, and if violator can use telepathy, so can spawn. althopu i tried to use his TP to protect sue in my scoob fight and it didnīt work

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6004759

No, he has indeed smacked Surfer around.

Oh look, here he goes again. http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/3841/751/1600/SilverSurferDracula04.jpg


Here's Apoc punking Exodus. http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/article/apocalypse19.jpg

Apocalypse taking down X-factor, Xmen, Inhuman royals, and I believe X-men Blue team.http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers4.png

Apoc whupping Ikaris. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers12.png

Apocalypse whupping Xavier's TP. http://static.mojefotke.si/1ddaf62cdef62ccb2b33fc87e80c52a32887b5f7.JPG


I looked it up. A sufficiently powerful force can break her fields, as for sonics, grey area. I'm going to assume yes based on the fact that they never retconned it or directly contradicted that one after it was shown.

Spawn didn't use TP until after the Greenworld, this is first age Spawn, he doesn't have that power yet.

Not to burst any bubbles, but Spawn and Violators limits should be almost the same. Hell with the caps I got on Iceman...they should be.

Good job so far Trickster, im hoping to see a good fight out of this one..

thats your scan? dracula giving a slap in surfer, thats nothing, and whats your point with that iīm not fighting him.

And i donīt see the point in apoc scans either, is he fighting gos like cable? NO. Surfer fought and beat god-like cable, he would murder apoc.

of course A sufficiently powerful force can break sueīs force fields, but they have withsand galactus. you think iīm staying still while you try to break my force fields? of course my team will be fighting yours, and it has the advantage of protection, not to mention being invisible.

spawn used telepathy in batman, and he can mimic powers, if violator can do it so can he.
but really you have violator, i have spawn, heīs better, you have omega red and i have inv woman who is much better not to mention, banshee screaaming in your teamīs hears, nighcraler teleporting around, and most important my team is protected by forcer fields, yours not, spawn woul teleport right away to beat violator, without a force field he would win, with a force field he wins faster, i would like to see violator trying to do soemthing while being smacked by spawn

Show me Spawn beating Violator pre-issue 50. If it's after that, it's not the Spawn you're using. Sue's fields do badly against magic as I recall. And your citing the batman crossover is illegal as crossovers do not count as canon. God-like Cable wasn't completely focused on the battle and was trying to repair buildings and damages caused by Surfer. He also broke Surfer's board, an impressive feat in of itself. I agree Surfer is more powerful than Godlike Cable. However, Surfer has been TP attacked by others and beaten, so Apoc&Violator beating him by TP is not out of consequence. Not to mention Surfer's powers are also less effective on magic. I'll pm Leonidas, as he has scans of Drac mind****ing Surfer.


Edit: Stars, they were roughly equal, but Spawn did not have the power of telepathy prior to Issue 50 and the Greenworld. I know for a fact that Violator has defeated several Hellspawn previously. Prior to issue 50, they never had an all out fight between Al & Violator. And Violator was holding back during that period by order of Malebolgia.

Ok, I've never read Spawn.... why do you keep mentioning #50?

Sorry. Issue 50 was when Spawn went to the Greenworld and gained his planet-awareness and telepathic link to everything on earth. He never displayed telepathy before that. He also gained the power to control the earth, such as when he commanded it to swallow the dark god Urizen. It was a major milestone in the character's power as he did stuff after that, that he had never done before. The greenworld obviously boosted his power quite abit. He did things like, beat Violator, easily handle the redeemer 2, imprison Urizen, and finally defeating Malebolgia, at which point the story goes into 2nd Age Spawn.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Show me Spawn beating Violator pre-issue 50. If it's after that, it's not the Spawn you're using. Sue's fields do badly against magic as I recall. And your citing the batman crossover is illegal as crossovers do not count as canon. God-like Cable wasn't completely focused on the battle and was trying to repair buildings and damages caused by Surfer. He also broke Surfer's board, an impressive feat in of itself. I agree Surfer is more powerful than Godlike Cable. However, Surfer has been TP attacked by others and beaten, so Apoc&Violator beating him by TP is not out of consequence. Not to mention Surfer's powers are also less effective on magic. I'll pm Leonidas, as he has scans of Drac mind****ing Surfer.


show me violator beating spawn. Spawn will beat violator easily protected by a invisible force field. Quasarīs fields go bad against magic attacks. even so violator + magic attacks is less then spawn + magic attack + force field.
show me surfer being mind raped and defeated ina well writen story no firelord loosing to spiderman crap (altough i doubt there is someone with apoc TP levels beating surfer).
your saying apoc and violator beating him by TP, like i would let them use their TP like that, this is war everybody will be fighting, and althou surfer will not loos to their tp, he is more fast then apocs mind. and violator has to concentrate in his own fight.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest


Edit: Stars, they were roughly equal, but Spawn did not have the power of telepathy prior to Issue 50 and the Greenworld. I know for a fact that Violator has defeated several Hellspawn previously. Prior to issue 50, they never had an all out fight between Al & Violator. And Violator was holding back during that period by order of Malebolgia.

but you do know spawn was the best hellspawn

Man, I know Laminator hasn't done anything, but I can't help but think he''ll pull off a helluva comeback, so I'm not voting yet.

How do you know where I am? This is a 15x15 mile antarctic battlefield. There are glaciers, snow and god knows what kind of weather conditions. How do you find me before I find you? Also, you haven't reckoned with Laminator. What makes you think I'm going to let your team gang up on me? I can lead them on a merry chase of telepathic images and constructs.

Violator wasn't going all out before Issue 50. Spawn went on to gain full control of his powers only after the greenworld and the evolution of his abilities to their highest level. It's why he was doing things like using the ambient evil to restore his power, using the great darkness dispersal, etc. Before that, Violator had a large experience and power advantage.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
How do you know where I am? This is a 15x15 mile antarctic battlefield. There are glaciers, snow and god knows what kind of weather conditions. How do you find me before I find you? Also, you haven't reckoned with Laminator. What makes you think I'm going to let your team gang up on me? I can lead them on a merry chase of telepathic images and constructs.

Violator wasn't going all out before Issue 50. Spawn went on to gain full control of his powers only after the greenworld and the evolution of his abilities to their highest level. It's why he was doing things like using the ambient evil to restore his power, using the great darkness dispersal, etc. Before that, Violator had a large experience and power advantage.

both spawn and violator are designe pretty much equal in this tournament i can wait for evangel feedback on this. I would know where you are because i will find you, iīm invisible remember. and your forgeting violator has to attack me and concentrate from banshee sonic attacks, he will be flying and using his power to affect your teamīs concentration and stability, not to mention if your hiding in some iceberg, you know what sound does in thos places, avalanches.

can you prove me violator is all that powerful in TP, because i never saw him mind raping spawn or something and like i+ve said their preety much on the same level for this tournament, plus spawn is smarter and has a force field

Trickster, you are doing well, I'm not entirely sure if you can beat Surfer with TP, but its a good plan. Spawn doesnt seem to me stronger than Violator at that particular point of his history, and we already heard several times during Loot's last battle that copying skills is something Spawn is not free to do due his status in the tournament.

Keep it up you both, I expect you to put a hell of a fight against master tactician Laminator (who arrives last as if he had prep).

spawn and violator are preety much equal, spawn having the advantage of a invisible force field created by sue.
Banshee will be using sonic screams to affect the teams.
And i admit violator is good, but omega red is not, and were only taloking about spawn vs violator, when your forgeting my other teams members, since i can take omega red with sue. and your other characters too. nightcralwer killing instantly your street fighters. basshee taking out venom with sound attacks venom weakness.

The tp is the main form of attack, but I'm going to be using other methods as well including magic. In all seriousness, I'm trying whatever I can to take down Surfer. The TP thing seems like my best shot given his power. I could have Apoc try and absorb the power cosmic, but I don't think that's possible.

........Laminator is going to be a ***** to deal with.


Sue can't concentrate her shields over all your teammates well enough to guard them all perfectly as well as herself. She takes a certain amount of feedback from strikes on her fields. A strong enough hit can knock her out. You still haven't answered how you get past the TP cloak and the poisons from death gambit. Sue has to constantly maintain the fields without allowing air in to keep out the death factor. We fight long enough, half your team suffocates or dies from the pheromones.

Alas, I'm sorry to say that I just got fired, and will not be by my computer much for the next day or so. Alas. I'm sorry to disappoint competitor and observer alike.

I'll still be on the boards, just not this weekend. Good luck guys!

jawdrop Wow...... I did not see that coming. That really sucks dude. Sorry to hear the bad news. Does this mean it's just me&Loot?

wow sorry to hear that laminator, good luck for you.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
The tp is the main form of attack, but I'm going to be using other methods as well including magic. In all seriousness, I'm trying whatever I can to take down Surfer. The TP thing seems like my best shot given his power. I could have Apoc try and absorb the power cosmic, but I don't think that's possible.

........Laminator is going to be a ***** to deal with.


Sue can't concentrate her shields over all your teammates well enough to guard them all perfectly as well as herself. She takes a certain amount of feedback from strikes on her fields. A strong enough hit can knock her out. You still haven't answered how you get past the TP cloak and the poisons from death gambit. Sue has to constantly maintain the fields without allowing air in to keep out the death factor. We fight long enough, half your team suffocates or dies from the pheromones.

you still didnīt said how you are going to fight with banshee sonics attacks.
Sue can prevent poison from entering, but gambit can die with a knife in his throat canīt he? nightcraler teleports and kills him.
and the main thing here his, you will have violator busy to use his TP on surfer and even if you didnīt he and apoc canīt take down surfer witha mind rape, he beat cable. and in surfer exists my main advantage he his way faster and stronger then apoc, and violator.
Omega red will perish quick as well.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
God-like Cable wasn't completely focused on the battle and was trying to repair buildings and damages caused by Surfer. He also broke Surfer's board, an impressive feat in of itself. I agree Surfer is more powerful than Godlike Cable.


About this for the last time, go read the comic book, both surfer and cable were reparing the buildings, why people only mention that cable was the only one doing this when their talking about surfer vs cable.
Surfers board was broken more times before, impressive, but its not the same that fighting him (and i guess apoc canīt break his board).
and after cable broke his board as you can see, surfer beat him instantly.

you have no one on your team on pair with surfer speed, i have a huge advantage in this area.

Loot wins, Trickster is making his characters out to be a lot stronger then they are.

iīm curious on one thing.

Not that i think i have a problem with death gambit, since he can be taken out. even surfer after beating apoc will come help, and sue can make a bigger force field to have more air
but my question is, if one of my team members is fighting one of yours, isnīt gambit poison kill him too?

Got to get some sleep now, see you tomorrow guys

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Alas, I'm sorry to say that I just got fired, and will not be by my computer much for the next day or so. Alas. I'm sorry to disappoint competitor and observer alike.

I'll still be on the boards, just not this weekend. Good luck guys!

What was your job?

With regards to death gambit, half my team can't be harmed because of no way to attack them that way, or healing factors. The street levelers are the only ones who are screwed, and if necessary, I can have Gambit turn them into unwilling suicide bombers.

Damn, sorry to hear bout that lam_X.. I was kinda lookin forward to what plan you'll come up in this match, maybe next tourny then..

So far Trickster has done a slight better in debating but would deff. like to see some scans backing those claim like say Violators TP's.. Im finding it hard to beleived that Apoc.. could TP's rape SS by himself Violator wouldnt be much used hed be busy w/ Spawn.. Loots Nightcrawler/Spawn could just as easily teleport anyone of Trickster teams taking them out of the fight for a sided team fight, Taskmaster/IW equipment/powers renders some of gambits/Omega Reds poison useless.. Loots team def. have the power advantage..

As you will see in the following scans, Violator is telepathically controlling the crowd. Because of his power, the crowd has taken on Violator's familiar blue face markings. http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/spawn1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12635

I apologize for the size of the scans.

http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/spawn1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12642

due to the nature of the website, the scans aren't coming up. But just click the links and you'll see the pictures.

This is Violator communicating telepathically with Jason Wynn. http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/spawn1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12491

This one is just to clarify Violator's size.
http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/spawn1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12570

...

Where exactly are they fighting?

More scans Violator using his TP to create a city-wide riot.

http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/spawn1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12647
http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/spawn1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12648
http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/spawn1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12663


Spawn saves the little girl from one of Violator's clown people, and she turns into one before his very eyes. That's messed up....
http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/spawn1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=12674

The fight in the issues of Spawn is in various parts of New York, including the back alleys where Spawn calls home.

The fighting here is on Antarctica somewhere. Evangel wasn't specific.

Thats more like mind control, but his def. capable of Tp. You've got one of him using against say against strong willed individual or SPB?

Jason Wynn doesn't count as strong willed? That's Jason's body he's in. For those not knowledgable about Spawn, Wynn was Al Simmon's boss in life, head of an umbrella group that controlled most of the US intelligence and the US govt, and the man who comissioned the death of Al Simmons. He was the one who cut the deal with Malebolgia to trade Simmons in exchange for hell's power. There are allusions in the comic that Wynn is the reincarnation of Ghengis Kahn. He was also picked by heaven as the first Redeemer. So yeah, he's pretty strong willed. I'll provide scans of all those if asked.

Dracula hypnotizing Surfer is WELL within Dracula's powerset. He could do the same to anyone from Prof X to whoever.

Thanks long pig.

So far so good from both sides.

Nah I meant the EMeta caps should place Spawn and Violator on equal levels.

I was really looking forward to Lam's strategy to say the least.

Good Luck Trickster and Loot, still too close to place a vote yet.

But they're not equal. Potentially, Spawn is better than Violator, but Violator has the experience edge. Not to mention Laminator should have specified which version of Spawn he wanted. Just picking first age, Violator is still more powerful and versatile. Spawn didn't get control of all his powers until after his costume went nuts and he went to the greenworld. Violator was the one who trained all the hellspawn previous to simmons, and everyone of them ended up in hell. If Loot had specified that Spawn would have full control of his powers, or at least named an issue, then I'd be in deep shit. As is, Violator has the edge. The caps may make their power levels equal, but not their combat experience and fighting skills. Not to mention 3rd age Spawn, who had full control of his powers, got punked by Violator.


Also, Venom's cloaking ability and the spontaneous nature of the symbiote leaves me to say he is being underrated. Not to mention Sonics, despite being his weakness, aren't always effective.

Here's his camo skills in action. http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/6364/venomnightsofvengeance03085xc.jpg

Venom finding an invisible enemy.
http://img461.imageshack.us/img461/3195/084al.jpg

Bullet dodging.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1552/venomlicencetokill02189kk.jpg


Finally, the coup de grace. Venom withstanding Stentor's sonic blast and laughing it off.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6253006
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6253008
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=6253009

Charging through a sonic blaster http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/da_herbman/AmazingSpider-Man362Large-04.jpg

your doing a great job, but your team lack in power, you have no one capable of making a good fight against surfer apoc will easily go down, you are basing your victory in a TP attack against surfer, when surfer already beat stronger telepaths then apoc and heīs more fast then apoc trying to control anyone. And my big advantage here is that iīm going to keep my herald level that eill come and help my team.

in enehanced meta omega red is not a big problem, so you will have violator fighting spawn and OW, your finished.

Good scan of venom, but your forgetting, banshee can fly, venom wonīt touch him.
Then like iīve said my teleportation strategy using night and spawn is pretty good to fight your team, and the sonics will always mess you up, banshee flying around using sonics while your team fights, you wonīt be able to concentrate, and some of you will fall uncounscious

altough i donīt think dracula should count as cannon, he didi break his mind control. but like iīve said he fough superior telepaths then apoc and won. if he gives all he has, apoc goes down, and fast.

I'm going to extend this match to Monday.

that Violator mass mind control... He was boosted by Mammon in that instance, wasn't he?

I vote for TricksterPriest, well thought out argument and good tactics.

No. Violator has never worked for Mammon. That was all him. When Malebolgia went down, Violator went free-lance. The entire city-wide riot was just his own power.

Give me a break Loot. I was lucky enough to find a weakness in Surfer. And even you have to admit Surfer has a hole in his defense when it comes to telepaths. Sending images of Zenn-La dying, his loved ones (forgot her name but you know, that chick he tried to bring back from death), all of this can gleamed from his mind and used against him.

Show me Surfer shrugging off a TP attack or beating strong telepaths. I threw down the gauntlet and showed a chink in his armor. You claim he can handle it, we must have scans eiher way. If Dracula can mess him up, even for awhile, Apoc&Violator should be able to do it.

look you have done the best you could with your team, i just donīt think it works, telepathic attack from apoc messing up surfer? no way. Violator canīt help apoc because he has my team to face he is not able to use his TP on surfer and fight my team at the same time.

I gave you the speed and power advantage, before apoc can think of attacking he will be full of power cosmic attacks. and i donīt have scans, but surfer has fought telepaths, plus surfer HAS telepathy.

Originally posted by Ichigo66666
I vote for TricksterPriest, well thought out argument and good tactics.

i agreed that the arguments are good the tactics too, but i donīt think its going to work comparing the two teams.

Could you explain me why you think it would work, if i understand where i am loosing i can try to defend myself, iīm not seeing apoc taking out surfer nor the rest of my team.

Loot is bettter if you assume that its going to work and prove otherwise, that way Trickster has to find another method and you are safe from the opinions of the judges. I would be siding with Trick too, because his attack seems plausible, you need to play straight defensa against that tactic or prove its useless, assuming it wont work may get you split results.

Hold up. Surfer does not have TP. I'll agree that he has resistance, but Surfer does not have his own TP.

Originally posted by Bentley
Loot is bettter if you assume that its going to work and prove otherwise, that way Trickster has to find another method and you are safe from the opinions of the judges. I would be siding with Trick too, because his attack seems plausible, you need to play straight defensa against that tactic or prove its useless, assuming it wont work may get you split results.

point taken but he hasnīt find a way of proving me wrong too. he hasnīt said how heīs going to fight being attacked by sonic waves, how violator is going to survive boths pawn and IW since omega red can easily be killed.

I have said surfer beat god-like cable and god like Cable >>>>>>> Apoc.

do i need to mention the enemies of surfer and the enemies of apoc. Apoc fights the x men, surfer fights thanos and mephisto, what do i need to prove apoc wonīt win. i need a scan with him fighting apoc? i donīt have one, and donīt have the time to search for scans right now.

he gave dracula as example, so i ask if i had spiderman in my team and posted the scan where he beats firelord, how would you prove it wrong, since everybody knows firelord would murder spiderman, just like everybody knows surfer would would murder apoc.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Hold up. Surfer does not have TP. I'll agree that he has resistance, but Surfer does not have his own TP.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Hold up. Surfer does not have TP. I'll agree that he has resistance, but Surfer does not have his own TP.

not again, are you serious? how do you think he comunicates with everybody, he knows all the languages trough telepathy, he send a TP message to strange from space. do i need scans for this?

Considering I've posted a shit load of scans to back up Violator, Apoc, Venom and other people on my team, a few from you wouldn't hurt. Btw,

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/435617_1-how-good-is-silver-surfers-telekinetic-and-telepathy-skills

According to Long Pig, Strange was able to **** up Surfer with TP. Also, certain aspects of telepathy can be facilitated with the power cosmic, including communication. The burden of proof is on you Loot. I hate to use testimonials, as I'd rather have scans, but Surfer's TK/TP or whether he even has them is still iunder debate. Long Pig is of the opinion that Surfer is around old Emma Frost.

Oh yeah, Surfer was unharmed by a TP attack from Moondragon w/ Mind Gem, There's no way he's going down to Apocs TP.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Considering I've posted a shit load of scans to back up Violator, Apoc, Venom and other people on my team, a few from you wouldn't hurt. Btw,

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/435617_1-how-good-is-silver-surfers-telekinetic-and-telepathy-skills

According to Long Pig, Strange was able to **** up Surfer with TP. Also, certain aspects of telepathy can be facilitated with the power cosmic, including communication. The burden of proof is on you Loot. I hate to use testimonials, as I'd rather have scans, but Surfer's TK/TP or whether he even has them is still iunder debate. Long Pig is of the opinion that Surfer is around old Emma Frost.

ok then here it is do you think apoc can do better then moondragoon with the mind gem?

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Infinity_Crusade03-34.jpg

I should mention Moondragon is vastly overrated in terms of TP, and your comparison to god-like Cable is false because Cable wasn't trying to mindrape surfer, he was trying to reason with him. God-like Cable did not use offensive telepathy during that battle. Not to mention Apoc has higher TP feats than Moondragon.

Moondragons gem grants her greater raw psy-power then any other telepath.

Right there, Surfer admit he's not sure how he did it. You proved Moondragon is not up to the task, but not that Surfer has TP or can defend against Apoc&Violator. Moondragon was trying to force him to submit, not kill him. Serious difference.

Edit: Strange whupped Moondragon with TP. He also whupped Surfer. So it is possible.

The POINT is that surfer can stand up to Mind Gem TP, he should have no problem with violator.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I should mention Moondragon is vastly overrated in terms of TP, and your comparison to god-like Cable is false because Cable wasn't trying to mindrape surfer, he was trying to reason with him. God-like Cable did not use offensive telepathy during that battle. Not to mention Apoc has higher TP feats than Moondragon.

but you were saying he didnīt had TP, here he is Defeating a psonic entity with a telepathic bolt

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_v3_minus1_p21.jpg

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/Silver_Surfer_v3_minus1_p22.jpg

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Right there, Surfer admit he's not sure how he did it. You proved Moondragon is not up to the task, but not that Surfer has TP or can defend against Apoc&Violator. Moondragon was trying to force him to submit, not kill him. Serious difference.

Edit: Strange whupped Moondragon with TP. He also whupped Surfer. So it is possible.

Moondragon has the mind gem, the mind gem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apoc TP
you needed prove that surfer had TP, now you have it.

Snuff out my last hope why don't you? Dude, I'm trying to find a way to beat Silver freaking Surfer. Can you blame me for being a little desperate? I'm practically praying at this point I can beat him with TP, because I don't think I have any other way to do it. And if Strange can beat Surfer with TP, and Dracula can do it, then I can do it too damn it.

Edit: And I grasp one last straw. It didn't say that was TP.

"Fighting with consciusness" is the same as TP.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Snuff out my last hope why don't you? Dude, I'm trying to find a way to beat Silver freaking Surfer. Can you blame me for being a little desperate? I'm practically praying at this point I can beat him with TP, because I don't think I have any other way to do it. And if Strange can beat Surfer with TP, and Dracula can do it, then I can do it too damn it.

off course, like iīve said before, i think your doing a fantastic work, i think its impossible doing better, i just truly believe your team is outclassed, had you has other herald level (and i would personaly change omega red too) and it would be completly different. Of course this is only my opinion, there are persons who think you can win, and counting the votes were tied.

Trickster, while you think your comeback against the Surfer I tip you to address the attacks Loot mentioned earlier. You should as well think in a way to fight disruptal to clear opinions.

Originally posted by King Kandy
"Fighting with consciusness" is the same as TP.

exactly if i need more scans to prove he has TP please tell me, before this ends (because i have more), i have to go to work or iīm screwd, have to deliver a ppaper this week.

But i think the ones iīves posted talk by themselvs

*sigh* Omega Red is fine, I just had the bad luck to fight a team that's protected. Maybe I could have changed that pick, but Apoc was a good pick. I just had the bad luck to go up against the surfer.


And here's part of my comeback. I'm still hunting for those scans of surfer getting beat by Strange, but it did happen, Long Pig can verify that.


Apocalypse has total molecular control of his body. That means he can give himself almost any superpower in existence. Be it super strength, Super speed, energy absorbtion, absorbing solar radiation for use as blasts, hell, with his own super speed, TP attack, and his crazy molecular control, Sufer has to hit Apoc to take him out, and Apoc could just as easily absorb the kinetic impact and use it as power. As far as speed goes, he's been able to easily outrun quicksilver, not to mention his teleportation technology. Apoc could also reduce his body mass for increased speed, so there's no telling how fast he can go. I'm not saying he can match Surfer, but he's not a snail tank just waiting to take hits. Hulk has knocked out Surfer in H2H, and Apoc has manhandled Hulk. He could shift his arms into a reflecting lense and turn Surfer's blasts back at him. He could create flying squid monsters to slow him down for a TP assault or a boot to the head. I've already proved he can create creatures from nothing earlier. And that creature he made against Exodus had the strength of at least 10 men.

So know Apocalypse can control the Power Cosmic? News to me.

I'm not saying he controls PC. I'm saying he's very skilled in manipulating energy and he could use Surfer's power against him. He's also not as big a slouch as people think when it comes to speed.

Edit: Plus, let's face it, Surfer isn't the brightest bulb around. Mephisto has ****ed with his head, Strange has, Thanos has, it seems to me that lots of people try to use TP on surfer in lieu of brute force if they have the former. He's pretty good with it, but I still think I have a chance because Apoc can multi task it. As can Violator.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
*sigh* Omega Red is fine, I just had the bad luck to fight a team that's protected. Maybe I could have changed that pick, but Apoc was a good pick. I just had the bad luck to go up against the surfer.


And here's part of my comeback. I'm still hunting for those scans of surfer getting beat by Strange, but it did happen, Long Pig can verify that.


Apocalypse has total molecular control of his body. That means he can give himself almost any superpower in existence. Be it super strength, Super speed, energy absorbtion, absorbing solar radiation for use as blasts, hell, with his own super speed, TP attack, and his crazy molecular control, Sufer has to hit Apoc to take him out, and Apoc could just as easily absorb the kinetic impact and use it as power. As far as speed goes, he's been able to easily outrun quicksilver, not to mention his teleportation technology. Apoc could also reduce his body mass for increased speed, so there's no telling how fast he can go. I'm not saying he can match Surfer, but he's not a snail tank just waiting to take hits. Hulk has knocked out Surfer in H2H, and Apoc has manhandled Hulk. He could shift his arms into a reflecting lense and turn Surfer's blasts back at him. He could create flying squid monsters to slow him down for a TP assault or a boot to the head. I've already proved he can create creatures from nothing earlier. And that creature he made against Exodus had the strength of at least 10 men.

everything apoc can transform, surfer can undone by his matter manipulation powers.
Are you serious about speed? show me scans of the best feats of apoc in terms of speed, iīll bring scans of surfer and we can compare. You want to bring hulk, again show me a fight between apoc and hulk, i doubt apoc has one has faster has surfer did when he fought hulk.

and dr strange has beaten entities, he is well above apoc. The thing about strange its heīs just a man, but they make him do this amazing feats beating guys on thanos level and more.

Hold on! You're comparing Apoc's TP to MEPHISTO'S!?!

Here's Apoc holding the Hulk http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers11.png

I'm about to show a few more Apoc scans. The amount of control he has over his body. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers17.png

Matter rearrangement, possibly reality warping. http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers20.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers21.png

Apocalypse was awakened too early from his last regeneration and had barely any control of his abilities. He was having trouble holding his form together. http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/uncxmen1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=22125



And he still beats this team. http://groups.msn.com/ultimatespidermanonlinecomic/uncxmen1.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=22127

And now, the beatdown.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers23.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers2.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers3.png

And that was with barely any of his power, having trouble standing and having trouble controlling his powers. And he still won.

And no. I AM NOT COMPARING APOC TO MEPHISTO! I'm saying that alot of Surfer's villains use TP on him for a reason. It seems to get results.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Moondragons gem grants her greater raw psy-power then any other telepath.

My Thoughts:

It's not "mind gem tp". It's moondragon's telepathy amped by however much she can tap into the gem. Telepathic power varies on who uses the gem.

What the scan doesn't show you is that Moondragon successfully used the gem beforehand on the surfer. He was taken under Goddess's powers.

We don't know if Moondragon was trying to get Surfer under control again or just completely scramble his mind.

Plus Surfer says
"It may have been Galactus's tampering with his soul." or
"it may have have been his power cosmic" or
"It could have been his own will that did it".

Surfer himself isn't sure. It could have been any one of them or a combination of all three. There's no way to tell it was just Surfer's own strength of will. It could have been an outside force as well. But surfer has been taken over telepathy before and by no means is he immune. It was just that one instance in Infinity Crusade that he was able to resist the moondragon's telepathy amped somewhat by the mindgem.

I just don't want people to think that Surfer is immune to telepathy.

Much appreciated Evangel. That is exactly my point. If Loot was using a proven Psi powerhouse like Stryfe or Cassandra Nova or Xavier, then it would easy to say they could defend against Psionics. Surfer does not have a proven record on psionics. Thus, we cannot assume that Surfer is immune to TP, as Evangel said.

Then again trying to place Stranges attack of Surfer isn't really too valid of a point either. Surfers weak to magic which anyway you look at it is all Strange is so of course he should be able to mess with him, compared to most Strange faces, Surfer isn't much.

Great fight guys, keep it up. Still on the fence here

Well it has come down to this...

"TricksterPriest vs Loot"

..in the Grand Finale of The Evangel94 WildCard MiniTournament.

Who wants it the most?

Both of them are fighting hard to get the last spot in the tournament. Both of them fighting to be one of the Top 4.

Will Loot, who was formerly known as "Norrin Radd" and the Champion of the 1st Slugfest Showdown, be the reigning next champion and hold the Slugfest Championship Title again for the 2nd time in a row? OR will TricksterPriest end Loot's reign here and now.

Who will win?

You people decide!

Hey, Stars. thanks. Guess what Loot? Violator is pure necroplasm and hell magic. ka-CHING! Not to mention Surfer has been shown to be vulnerable to magic-based TP, and I'm sure Violator can augment his TP with magic. Hell, Gambit could channel kinetic energy into Apoc to boost his power. Apoc does have energy absorbtion. And I believe absorbing kinetic energy could count as a physical superpower, which falls under molecular control.

Magical TP is a good point, that may get SS down, you still should take the rest of the team.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Hey, Stars. thanks. Guess what Loot? Violator is pure necroplasm and hell magic. ka-CHING! Not to mention Surfer has been shown to be vulnerable to magic-based TP, and I'm sure Violator can augment his TP with magic. Hell, Gambit could channel kinetic energy into Apoc to boost his power. Apoc does have energy absorbtion. And I believe absorbing kinetic energy could count as a physical superpower, which falls under molecular control.

first of all, violator is not on strange level, heīs not a malebolgia, so no, thereīs no way someone on violatorīs level can take down surfer. plus he is limited like spawn in enhanced meta level. Guess what Spawn has also hell magic and the most powerfull hell symbiont.
And for last, its not apoc and violator vs surfer, there are more people involved, and you donīt have a force field protecting violator so he can be quiet and using TP and everybody, violator will be fighting against my team.

Yout scans of apoc donīt prove much, the fight against hulk? that wasnīt impressive, surfer beat hulk in seconds by absorbing his gamma radiation. or he can simply beat him trough power as well.

And in terms of speed you donīt want to go that way, really, apocīs feats are no wear near surferīs feats.

http://photobucket.com/albums/b305/surfistaprateado/ss_enslavers_06.jpg

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=3657953

i forgot to put this one to sjow his reflexes are way above apocs.

Well, it is true that surfer isn't great against magic...

But it's not like he's got the killer weakness to magic that superman has or anything, he's just not all that against it.

Plus, he's going against guys like Strange, who's a cosmic, almost abstract level magician...

Originally posted by Loot
i forgot to put this one to sjow his reflexes are way above apocs.
actualy, you already posted that one as a link....

Ok, what are the big guns on Loot's team? Spawn&Surfer. I've already shown that Surfer can be taken down, albeit with difficulty. Now, do I have to post the scans of 3rd age Spawn getting his ass kicked by Violator? You guys don't give Violator nearly enough credit. And btw, Al Simmons's mind is his weakspot. Plenty of people have ****ed with him telepathically. Mammon did it, Malebolgia did it, Violator did it, Cog did it to a lesser extent, the greenworld did it (although that shouldn't count, as that was MoM). the point is, Spawn has a severe weakness to psionics. And far too many skeletons in his closet to easily deal with a psionic guilt trip or trip down memory lane. Hell, I teleport-smash Sue Richards, Omega Red can take half your team out with the death factor. Nightcrawler has teleporting, but you have to find my team first. I can surgically strike via teleporting too, and I can use telepathy from anywhere on the field to take Spawn&Surfer out of the fight. I can hide my team with magic by folding space into a small pocket dimension. As Houdini said in Spawn, most of magic is just telling it to do what you want and understanding how it works. And one thing we can all agree on, is Violator has a HUGE experience advantage over Spawn. I don't have to fight Surfer directly, thus the speedblitz is far less of a danger. The onus is, and has always been, on you to prove that my TP can't take out Surfer, and then Spawn. You might be able to prove Surfer, but you can't find anything for Spawn because there isn't any. Whatever TP he has, he has a huge weakness to mind****ing. Otherwise, why would everyone use TP against him? Answer: It works. You don't have the psi-juice to stop me.

Many thanks to Longpig for these scans.

Dr. Strange punking Surfer inside Surfer's head with TP and magic. http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=strangesurf1hg0.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=strangesurf2ti2.jpg

Just a little bit of ownage by magic.

ANNOUNCEMENT

This match will be closed by 1:00 PM US CENTRAL TIME Monday.

Those who are interested in voting, please have your votes in before then.

Strange and Violator are on quite bit of a different level though...

Again I really don't see Apocalypse beating Surfer in the slightest but for this battle Trickster has had the upperhand.

My vote goes to Trickster, he strategy has been pretty solid and he has brought up points the for the most part havn't been taken down well. Good Luck with the future of the tournament.

surfer beating apoc is enough for he can take the rest of the team solo.

he didnīt counter my sounds attack, sound in antarctida will make avalanches i think i would find your team.

i can create a gigantic force field and make spawn and nightcraler bring one by one the members of his team to be defeated, violator first.

his attack is good but doesnīt make sense, psylocke attack in scoobs fight resulted because she had a quasar force field to protect her.

i still donīt understand why someone who thinks that apoc wonīt beat surfer can vote on apoc, but its ok.

Doctor Stranges Magic and TP are on a whole different level then Violator, more like Malebolgia.

He doesn't really use TP, he uses magic to generate the same effect.

One hour and thirty minutes left.

Please cast your vote before then.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Doctor Stranges Magic and TP are on a whole different level then Violator, more like Malebolgia.

He doesn't really use TP, he uses magic to generate the same effect.

thats exactly what iīve said, strange is on malebolgia level, and violator is a bug to malebolgia.

Less than half an hour left.

Please cast your votes as soon as possible before 1 PM US Central Time.

Do any competitors ask for extension on the 1 PM closing deadline?

Because this match is so critical on deciding who gets back into the tournament, I may extend the the match.

Well I'm going to extend this match to 8:00 PM tonight.

Current Vote Count:

King Kandy - Loot

Kallark-Ken - TricksterPriest
StarsNeverFall7 - TricksterPriest

i am officially the worst debator in this tournament

no offense but my team was superior and stars saying: i donÂīt see apoc beating surfer but iÂīm voting trickster because he wrote better. doesnÂīt make sense to me

Strange might even beat Malebolgia.

Hell, Strange could probably challange Mammon.

This match isn't over yet Loot. I'm sure some people are still on the fence in regards to this match.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Strange might even beat Malebolgia.

Hell, Strange could probably challange Mammon.

so true.

but for the number of votes, i donīt know if besides us anyone was reading this.

iīve just red what ev said, lets see if someone else is going to vote. of course that could mean more votes to trickster too, donīt want to be cocky, i just truly think in a comic book my team would win.

Comparing violator to strange is absurd

I never said I was comparing the two. I was just showing that Surfer has been mind ****ed by magic before. Mephisto was also able to do it.


It's not about your team's power, I knew from the get go that I was the underdog. It's the fact that I've outmaneuvered you and cast doubt onto your character working together and pulling off a win. In all seriousness, both of us were going to lose to Laminator in all likelyhood. We got lucky he bailed out. I also think my numerous scans and debate point helped. . I'm still not sure I'm going to win, but I know your team was stronger than mine. So I'm counting my blessings that I've done as well as I have.

Voting Loot:
I do not think that the TP move would work against Surfer. He has resisted many people, the moondragon feat being one of them. I have to vote Loot thinking that if that tactic did not work then his team would overcome the other

Hold it. I already proved TP works on him and that he has been mind****ed in the past. I have also proved that Violator and Apoc have considerable TP juice. Loot has not proven that Surfer even possesses TP. And Moondragon is garbage. She was also not trying to kill Surfer, but dominate him. Big difference, as I said. Surfer has his own skeletons in a closet, and Violator is very good at pulling them out. Look at how he messed up 3rd age Spawn. You're telling me you think Surfer has a stronger will than him? He ****ed with 1st age Spawn even more. At this rate, I'm going to need to make a violator respect thread........

Doesnt matter. Due to limitations of characters due to their positions in the tourny, AND thanks to Surfers tp resistence (which *I* know he has, and the moondragon feat is just one resisted attempt) Violator cannot take him out anyways. Herald>>whatever place Violator is in.

Taking all that into consideration I would have to vote for Loot

One herald level TPer and one E-meta TPer should be enough to beat Surfer, especially if Violator uses magic on Surfer. Surfer has a known weakness to magic based TP, as has been proven on here. Violator could also enhance Apoc's TP via magic.

I stand by my vote. I would have an arguement about your magic TP, but it might help Loot.

Current Vote Count:

King Kandy - Loot
Blair Wind - Loot

Kallark-Ken - TricksterPriest
StarsNeverFall7 - TricksterPriest

Half an hour left to go. I still expect people like scoobless and roldz to vote.

Sorry, just fixed computer problem..
Anyhow both presented quite well, but i dont see Tp bringing Surfer down, Surfer got a few weakness that is within Apoc. to manipulate like say beg for his life then back stab him in the back, Surfer could easyly fall for that , then theres violators shape shifting Skillz, they're fighting in the cave, could easyly used that to his advantage..
I vote for Loot, but very close..

I think I've given ample time for people to vote.

The Results are in

King Kandy - Loot
Blair Wind - Loot
Roldz - Loot

Kallark-Ken - TricksterPriest
StarsNeverFall7 - TricksterPriest

The Winner of the WildCard MiniTournament is: Loot in a 3 to 2 vote.

Loot wins by 1 vote. Loot has won the right to come back into the main tournament.

Thank you for participating in the WildCard MiniTournament TricksterPriest. And that goes for everyone else who has participated. Hopefully you will still vote in the final three matches that will take place.

Match Over.

Originally posted by Blair Wind


is it really that bad voting on me?

anyway thanks to all for the votes

Aw shit. I had you dead to rights. I'm certain Scoob would have voted for me. Oh well. Good match. I'll get you next time. Next time I'll have way more feats for Apoc and I'll draft better in E-meta. Or at least have more research.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Aw shit. I had you dead to rights. I'm certain Scoob would have voted for me. Oh well. Good match. I'll get you next time. Next time I'll have way more feats for Apoc and I'll draft better in E-meta. Or at least have more research.

you really are stuborn about apoc, heīs not that powerfull for herald level. (my opinion)

Apocalypse's potential powerset should almost place him out of herald, its just the fact that he was a character made to make to good guys look good so his rep is horrible.

Good Luck with the rest of the tournament Loot. Id enjoy seeing Surfer come out on top.

Thanks stars. Good luck Loot.

Apocalypse's potential powerset is another story i admit that. doom is not on herald level and with prep he can take herald enemies.

Thanks trickster and stars