Count Dooku vs. TPM Darth Maul & Qui-Gon

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Nikkolas
Since it was decided Maul and Qui-Gon clean house with the duo Dooku whooped, how about this fight?

General Kenobl

jollyjim311
I really want to say Qui Gon and Maul, because:
Qui Gon-
* The best lightsaber user Obi Wan Has ever seen.
* On par with Mace Windu as of TPM.
* Could have easily been on the council.
* Knowledgeable and wise of the force (seeing as how he was the first to come back from the dead).

Maul:
* "An almost unstoppable weapon" (Ultimate Visual Guide, page 32).
* He had "Constant training to become stronger, faster, and smarter than any adversary could anticipate," and showed it (Same).
* "Masters the lightsaber and practices martial arts and marksmanship" (Same).
* Extremely resilient to pain.
* http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=11&page=001 (Tell me if you're too lazy to read through, and just want specifics).
* Uses "ruthless fighting techniques" and "superior Sith fighting skills" to kill Qui Gon. (Page 39)
* An "Incredible warrior" (Databank).
* Uses unique fighting styles, like Teras Kasi forms with his lightsaber.

But:

Acording to the ROTS novel, during Dookus fight with Anakin and Obi Wan, while Obi Wan was faking weakness and using Qui Gons form, it stated that "Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics." He went on with about three strikes that he was positive would kill Kenobi, due to him using Ataru (luckily Kenobi stopped feigning in time and went to Soresu).

If Dooku can really "burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades" and kill Qui Gon as fast as he thought he would be able to, then, he takes out Qui Gon, and after a tough match, eventually defeats Maul (rightfully assuming that Maul and Qui Gon can't go at him with a lot of synergy).

It doesn't seem to add up, but, there you have it. Depending on the circumstances and arena, it could change, but, it looks like Dooku has this, due to his knowing everything about Qui Gon's form, and, Qui Gon himself, I would imagine. erm

Darth Sexy
Did you just say Qui Gonn was the best lightsaber duelist Obiwan has ever seen? If that's the case, Obiwan should get out more.

jollyjim311
I think Qui Gon, along with Maul, are underestimated. They are some of the top dogs of their time.

The Sith'ari
Their time sucked.

jollyjim311
With Sidious and Yoda? I don't think so. They're the strongest Sith/ Jedi up until their time.

The Sith'ari
In saber combat? Doubtful..

Gideon
Originally posted by The Sith'ari
Their time sucked.

Stunning argument. You're devolving back to your annoying days. And to think I tried to stop Darth Sexy from bashing the hell out of you. Anyways, for this, the phrase "prove up or shut up" comes to mind.

darthsith19
I'm not sure about this one, Dooku could take this, seeing as Maul and Qui-Gon will work poorly together, but even then, it'd be close, so I'm really not sure. Probably the duo.

And the TPM era wasn't the greatest but it didn't suck. Maul was most certainly in the top 5 of that era, Qui-Gon in the top 10.

The Sith'ari
Originally posted by Gideon
You're devolving back to your annoying days.

And you're devolving back to your woman days. Now at least I had the courtesy to not point it out, Granny Gideon.

Gideon
Originally posted by The Sith'ari
And you're devolving back to your woman days. Now at least I had the courtesy to not point it out, Granny Gideon.

A stunning comeback to coincide with a stunning argument. On a roll, aren't we?

The Sith'ari
Why thank you Nana G!

Gideon
Originally posted by The Sith'ari
Why thank you Nana G!

Lmao, you're very welcome. Now, focus on the argument.

Rampant ox
Dooku pwns. He absolutely destroys Maul with his superior force abilities, the proceeds to crush Jinn with his saber prowess - all while sipping a martini. Seriously though, the duo dont have a chance.

Gideon
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku pwns. He absolutely destroys Maul with his superior force abilities, the proceeds to crush Jinn with his saber prowess - all while sipping a martini. Seriously though, the duo dont have a chance.

I believe that would be a slight exaggeration. He doesn't pwn them. Maul possesses an outrageous amount of stamina and Qui-Gon would have a strong familiarity with Makashi as well. He probably wins, but he does not pwn.

Rampant ox
Maul can have all the stamina in the world, it doesnt stop Dooku from being leagues above him in both force abilities and swordsmanship. Im quite sure Maul will be defeated before Dooku gets tired, therefore his 'outrageous amount of stamina' would be rendered useless.

Qui-Gon doesnt stand a chance - if what Dooku said in the ROTS novelisation is anything to go by.

Darth Subjekt
what'd he say?

darthsith19
Rampant, Dooku is NOT leagues above Maul, in fact, Maul is a greater swordsman that Dooku is. In Both Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter and Cloak of Deception state that Anoon Bondara is the Order's finest swordsman, this is an order which includes Dooku and Yoda, and Maul proved himself to be a better swordsman that Anoon when he defeated him. Dooku is stronger than Maul with the Force but Maul's not weak in that category, either, he wouldn't get pwnd, anyway.

jollyjim311
Yeah, Rampant, Maul alone wouldn't get pwned by Dooku, nevermind him plus someone else. I mean, Qui Gon is really good, but, Dooku knows his moves perfectly. Now that I think about it, maybe he couldn't kill him in a few strikes, but, without a good amount of teamwork from Maul, Qui Gon's going down. After that, Dooku will fight hard to fend off Maul, but, he will most likely eventually overcome him.

Marxman
Dooku only wins this is he can keep them apart, probably using the Force against Maul, since he was known to be relatively weak in the Force, and fighting Qui-Gon one on one. If he can defeat Qui-Gon, he then moves onto Maul. But I see Maul and Qui-Gon winning this.

jollyjim311
Maul is weak in the force? Where are you getting that from?

Rampant ox
Count Dooku is, well, Count Dooku. He has spent 80 years mastering Makashi. He has been taught by both Yoda and Sidious. He is in a different league than Maul when it comes to swordsmanship.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by Marxman
Dooku only wins this is he can keep them apart, probably using the Force against Maul, since he was known to be relatively weak in the Force, and fighting Qui-Gon one on one. If he can defeat Qui-Gon, he then moves onto Maul. But I see Maul and Qui-Gon winning this.


"Just because there are two of you do not assume you have the advantage". Another words Dooku doesnt care if there are multiple opponents, he is skilled enough to handle more than one enemy at a time. Also from Wookie...

Dooku was so well versed in lightsaber combat that he was able to hold his own against three or four opponents by himself despite the fact that Makashi was less efficient when faced with multiple opponents.

Marxman
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Maul is weak in the force? Where are you getting that from?

I said relatively weak. He is Force sensitive and so has power in the Force. It just wasn't his strong point. He was a swordsman first.

Marxman
Originally posted by Rampant ox
"Just because there are two of you do not assume you have the advantage". Another words Dooku doesnt care if there are multiple opponents, he is skilled enough to handle more than one enemy at a time. Also from Wookie...

Dooku was so well versed in lightsaber combat that he was able to hold his own against three or four opponents by himself despite the fact that Makashi was less efficient when faced with multiple opponents.

Yea but I'm sure "multiple opponents" didn't include two of the greatest lightsaber duelists of all time. Even with Obi-Wan and Anakin, he preferred to fight them one on one. In AOTC, he physically overwhelms Anakin with Force Lightning then taking on Obi-Wan. In ROTS, he chokes Obi-Wan then tosses him and causes a platform to fall down on him, then tries to take on Anakin alone.

Rampant ox
ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan are uber. Maul and Jinn are not. Dooku physically couldnt handle both Anakin and Kenobi so he split them up. I doubt that Jinn and Maul will pose the same threat.

Marxman

Rampant ox
Then you are lost!

Marxman
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Then you are lost!

So does that mean I win? stick out tongue

Happy Dance

jollyjim311
Originally posted by Marxman
I said relatively weak. He is Force sensitive and so has power in the Force. It just wasn't his strong point. He was a swordsman first.

Most of his force abilities are just letting him do better in combat, but, he has "Far superior dark side knowledge" compared to a Nightsister or Dormothir.

Gideon
Especially when you consider that Maul received longer training than Dooku himself did.

Darth Subjekt

Marxman
Originally posted by jollyjim311
Most of his force abilities are just letting him do better in combat, but, he has "Far superior dark side knowledge" compared to a Nightsister or Dormothir.

Yes but compared to Dooku? Dooku dominated Anakin with his Force lightning and choked and tossed Obi-Wan like a fcuking rag doll.

jollyjim311
Anakin was an idiot then. Dooku was just being flashy then. A force push would have done the trick.

Anyway, Dooku is the kind of man to go into a duel.

Marxman
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
no way...Anakin was somewhat prodigal and ob1 was THE master of his form...if OB1 beat Maul as a padawan (lucky or not) then he could get "lucky" again. Anakin was the most powerful at the time of ROTS, and his lightsaber skills were phenomenal obviously as he pwned dooku in a matter of seconds. Maul had a hard enough time with TPM ob1 and you saw what kind of problems QGJ had with Maul, so i don't see them pwning the ROTS duo by any means of the imagination. Plus, OB1 didn't even use his mastered form with Maul, as he used QGJ's and wasn't very proficient with it at that.

I guess you're entitled to your own opinion. But this is Qui-Gon and Maul vs Dooku, not Qui-Gon and Maul vs Obi-Wan and Anakin.

Darth Subjekt
Thank you for clearing up the thread combatants...yes, I know this, but you made an assertion and I disagreed...obviously you felt the need to mention the ROTS duo, so my post was as relevant as yours. erm It was a comparative statement, drawing on the fighters abilities. It's been made clear that Anakin in his mid frame while pwning Dooku, is virtually unstoppable, hence why i see a flaw in your statement. All good though.

darthsith19
And Sidious ahs only spent what? Around 60 years mastering Ataru and he could take Dooku. Bane has spent less than a year studying Djem So at the end of PoD and he could at least give Dooku and great match. So your ideology that Dooku > Maul cause he's been studying his form for longer is flawed.

Oh, and Anakin's been tuaght by Kenobi, who is inferior to Yoda and Sidious, yes Anakin pwnd Dooku! ZOMG!

Agreed, he was a swordsman first, but he was NOT weak with the Force. He had used Force Choke, Grip, Speed, Jump, Push and resisted Force Lightning just to mention some of his feats.

And no, TPM Maul and Qui-Gon could not defeat ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan, Maul could hold either of them off for a little while, I guess, and Qui-Gon vs. Kenobi would be drawn out due to Soresu so a battle between the two teams might last as long as, oh 3-4 minutes but the ROTS duo definitely wins.

Rampant ox
Originally posted by darthsith19
And Sidious ahs only spent what? Around 60 years mastering Ataru and he could take Dooku. Bane has spent less than a year studying Djem So at the end of PoD and he could at least give Dooku and great match. So your ideology that Dooku > Maul cause he's been studying his form for longer is flawed.

True I guess. But with your logic Yoda wouldnt be better than Maul with a blade, even though he has had centuries more training with it. While experience doesnt count for everything, more often than not it will give you the edge in a fight. Especially since with these years of training you have mastered your form and force abilities to the highest possible degree.



Hahaha fair enough. But being taught by the two most powerful force users of the era is most certainly an advantage. Anakin was the chosen one, he was going to be uber no matter who taught him.

Marxman
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Thank you for clearing up the thread combatants...yes, I know this, but you made an assertion and I disagreed...obviously you felt the need to mention the ROTS duo, so my post was as relevant as yours. erm It was a comparative statement, drawing on the fighters abilities. It's been made clear that Anakin in his mid frame while pwning Dooku, is virtually unstoppable, hence why i see a flaw in your statement. All good though.

I just don't see how Anakin>Dooku and Anakin+Obi-Wan>Qui-Gon+Maul adds anything to this debate since neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan is a factor.

Marxman
Originally posted by darthsith19
And no, TPM Maul and Qui-Gon could not defeat ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan, Maul could hold either of them off for a little while, I guess, and Qui-Gon vs. Kenobi would be drawn out due to Soresu so a battle between the two teams might last as long as, oh 3-4 minutes but the ROTS duo definitely wins.

Same goes for you.

darthsith19
blink

It's possible, though I'm guessing the authors of CoD and Shadow Hunter didn't know how good Yoda was with a blade, I mean, who did, before AOTC came out?

Maul was taught by Sidious, too, yeah, training from 2 masters is betetr than being trained by one, but still, what about Kas'im, I doubt his master is superior to Yoda or Sidious yet Kas'im could take Dooku (imo, close, though).

Marxman
Originally posted by darthsith19
blink

Sorry, I guess that was a little vague especially since it popped up on a new page.

Originally posted by Marxman
I just don't see how Anakin>Dooku and Anakin+Obi-Wan>Qui-Gon+Maul adds anything to this debate since neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan is a factor.

Darth Subjekt
well then why did you bring it up in the first place?

Marxman
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
well then why did you bring it up in the first place?
I was showing how I assumed Dooku would handle the fight between Qui-Gon and Maul. Since Dooku seemed to be more comfortable fighting Anakin and Obi-Wan seperately he would probably try to use the same strategy since, IMO, Qui-Gon and Maul are of a higher dueling caliber.

It wasn't a comparison of Obi-Wan and Anakin against Qui-Gon and Maul. It was a comparison of the fighting strategy of Dooku.

((The_Anomaly))
I actually mostly agree with Rampant. Dooku wins, and quite handily.

Firstly Dooku trained Qui-Gon, which means he knows him inside and out. Secondly, Qui-Gon uses Ataru, which (I cant remember the source) Dooku says he knows every flaw and weakness of and can exploit them very easily. Dooku is also a far superior force user then Qui-Gon. So basically, Qui-Gon wouldn't last very long at all, not long enough to make a difference anyways.

Then we get to Maul. While Maul is obviously very skilled with a lightsaber he is no Dooku. Dooku is still noticeably superior to Maul in saber combat, and obviously vastly superior to Maul in terms of force power. Maul would last longer then Qui-Gon would against Dooku due to his sword skills, but Maul is still going down hard.

Captain REX
Originally posted by The Sith'ari
And you're devolving back to your woman days. Now at least I had the courtesy to not point it out, Granny Gideon.

Didn't I tell you not the bash?

Next time, temp ban.

The Sith'ari
Just a temp? Even if I 'bash' you?

Faunus
That was clever.

And really, this is lopsided. Qui-Gon gets completely obliterated, regardless of whether or not Dooku chooses to mess around with him, and Maul - while lasting a good while in a duel - would get manhandled by the Count if he decides to use his mastery of the Force.

jollyjim311
Originally posted by jollyjim311
I really want to say Qui Gon and Maul, because:
Qui Gon-
* The best lightsaber user Obi Wan Has ever seen.
* On par with Mace Windu as of TPM.
* Could have easily been on the council.
* Knowledgeable and wise of the force (seeing as how he was the first to come back from the dead).

Maul:
* "An almost unstoppable weapon" (Ultimate Visual Guide, page 32).
* He had "Constant training to become stronger, faster, and smarter than any adversary could anticipate," and showed it (Same).
* "Masters the lightsaber and practices martial arts and marksmanship" (Same).
* Extremely resilient to pain.
* http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=11&page=001 (Tell me if you're too lazy to read through, and just want specifics).
* Uses "ruthless fighting techniques" and "superior Sith fighting skills" to kill Qui Gon. (Page 39)
* An "Incredible warrior" (Databank).
* Uses unique fighting styles, like Teras Kasi forms with his lightsaber.

But:

Acording to the ROTS novel, during Dookus fight with Anakin and Obi Wan, while Obi Wan was faking weakness and using Qui Gons form, it stated that "Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics." He went on with about three strikes that he was positive would kill Kenobi, due to him using Ataru (luckily Kenobi stopped feigning in time and went to Soresu).

If Dooku can really "burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades" and kill Qui Gon as fast as he thought he would be able to, then, he takes out Qui Gon, and after a tough match, eventually defeats Maul (rightfully assuming that Maul and Qui Gon can't go at him with a lot of synergy).

It doesn't seem to add up, but, there you have it. Depending on the circumstances and arena, it could change, but, it looks like Dooku has this, due to his knowing everything about Qui Gon's form, and, Qui Gon himself, I would imagine. erm

Faunus
Was that a rebuttal. . . ?

jollyjim311
I believe Maul may be a better duelist, or, at least close...

The Sith'ari
No way, Maul's a pretty whack duelist; technically, he sucks, he had barely mastered an incomplete form by TPM, he was reckless and left himself far too open, and he briefly got overpowered by fricking TPM Obi-Wan!

Faunus
Originally posted by jollyjim311
I believe Maul may be a better duelist, or, at least close... Maul's not a bad swordsman at all, which is why I said he'd last a good while against Dooku in a duel. But again, if Dooku chooses to actually go all out on Maul, he'd simply crush him with the Force.

The Sith'ari
Don't be silly, Maul sucks ass as a duelist, technically speaking.

Mizukage Yoda
Dooku

General Kenobl
Darth Maul is an impressive lightsaber duelist. Whilst he may not be greater than ROTS Kenobi in lightsaber combat, he's definately powerful enough that he's not going to get owned by Dooku in a saber contest.

Qui-Gon is not that good in lightsaber and Force combat compared to these two individuals.

Dooku's Makashi skill will help him surely overwhelm Qui-Gon. However, in a saber contest, he's not going to whip Maul soon. His Force mastery will help him surely in this duel.

Tyrannus can overwhelm Qui-Gon Jinn with lightsaber mastery and Force strength. He'll then duel with Maul before pulling a Force combination on the Zabrak and finish him off.

Thus, the duo loses after a good fight.

darthsith19
Sith'ari, are you kidding? Maul's a weak duelist? Is this the same Maul that nearly killed Sidious in the EU? The same one who saber skills are (according to the TPM Visual Dictionary) better than Sidious's (I don't believe that to be true, but it's what it says). The same one who took out Anoon Bondara, who was twice stated to be "The Order's Finest Swordsman"? The same one wh, when tired, took out Qui-Gon Jinn, who rivaled Mace in swordsman ship, and also faught Jinn and Kenobi, two on one, and matched them for msot of the duel? Right... roll eyes (sarcastic)

Rampant ox
Maul certainly isnt weak, yet he isnt on the level of Dooku in either swordsmanship or force mastery. Beating Jinn and Kenobi isnt anything special really. Jinn was aging and more than likely wasnt at his peak, Kenobi was nothing more then a reckless apprentice. Besides, if I recall Maul lost that match anyway. We dont know how strong Mace was as of TPM, so we cant use that to guage Mauls abilities at all.

Killing Sidious in the EU may or may not have been impressive. I dont know seeing I havent read what happened. But are you sure Maul didnt just catch Sidious by suprise? If so its nothing really that special either - if it was we could say that TPM Kenobi is better than he actually is because he caught Maul by suprise and nearly bet him (in fact he did beat him).

I dont know about this Anoon Bondara person. I find it very hard to beleive that they were the Ordes Finest. Especially when this Order comprised of Yoda and probably Dooku at that time. So while I think Maul is good, he has nothing on Dooku.

EDIT: I dont see anywhere in TPM Visual Dictionary that states Mauls saber skills are better than Sidious' own. Can you provide a page number please.

Marxman
You guys are underestimating Qui-Gon. He was a master swordsman. He got beat by Maul because the setting didn't allow him to use his preferred combat form to its fullest.

Originally posted by The Sith'ari
No way, Maul's a pretty whack duelist; technically, he sucks, he had barely mastered an incomplete form by TPM, he was reckless and left himself far too open, and he briefly got overpowered by fricking TPM Obi-Wan!
Dude, when you debate in these threads its required you have basic knowledge of the characters. You obviously know nothing about Maul. He completely mastered Juyo. Even thought it was considered incomplete, the way Maul used it was a force to be reckoned with.

Furthermore, Maul mastered the two-handed combat style of Jar'Kai, the form used by Anakin against Dooku in AOTC, which was overwhelming Dooku until he was able to destroy one of the lightsabers. He was also a master in unarmed combat, which simply shows his complete martial prowess.

And he wasn't overpowered by Obi-Wan. He got cocky when he had thought the battle was over and was caught off guard.

General Kenobl
Maul is probably close to ROTS Kenobi in lightsaber combat. Dooku is just a bit better than Kenobi in lightsaber combat and it will take him time to break Obi-Wan's powerful Soresu defense. Therefore, Maul might not certainly beat Tyrannus in a lightsaber contest, but yet he's certainly capable of lasting a minute or two.

((The_Anomaly))
Originally posted by General Kenobl
Maul is probably close to ROTS Kenobi in lightsaber combat. Dooku is just a bit better than Kenobi in lightsaber combat and it will take him time to break Obi-Wan's powerful Soresu defense. Therefore, Maul might not certainly beat Tyrannus in a lightsaber contest, but yet he's certainly capable of lasting a minute or two.

I agree with this.

HK69
I don't, Dooku's leagues above Maul with a saber, Maul would be screwed against him.

darthsith19
Yes, it is. Kenobi is already a kevel 6 or 7 swordsman, not the strongest but allright, while Jinn is nearly as strong as Windu.

Ahreed, but he wasn't far from it, and, in his TPM state, he was nearly as strong as Windu (since it's in the TPM novel that says this).

Actually, for the msot part he seemed pretty calm to me, he wasn't like AOTC Anakin and he was already probably on the level of most knights. Taking him and someone close to Windu's level, 2 on 1, while not at your full strength, and being pretty much on par with them is saying something.

Due to Kenobi's luck. For 99% of the duel he was eitehr on par with them or winning. Surely him being at full strength would have gotten rid of that one percent.

He led the Jedi during Jedi Council: Acts of War, he certainly didn't fight as good in it as he did in AOTC/ROTS but he still seemed to bethe strongest Jedi there. When he faught Dooku before TPM and lost how close was it?

I don't know, all I knmow is TNEGTC (the new essential guide to characters) states that they faught and Maul enarly killed him.

Yes, he did, but Maul was cocky, any Sith would have been - Sidious and Maul's was actually a duel.

I find it hard to believe, too. But both Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter and The Cestus Deception state that she is "The Order's Finest Swordsman" and "second to none". And Maul beat her. So, going by that logic, as far as sword skills go, Maul > Anoon > Yoda > Dooku.

Sorry, I can't, I don't own the book and haven't actually seen it myself. Someone told me it said that and I assumed they were telling the truth.


No, Juyo was 100% complete. Vaapad, which was a variation of Dooku, wasn't 100% complete. But Juyo was. Dooku didn't use Juyo ever - that scene in AOTC was deleted and in EU Dooku states his distaste for that form.


Sith'ari, I like you allright, but you're being a dumbass. Goodbye now. bye

General Kenobl
http://images.killermovies.com/forums/moresmilies/bye.gif

LOL! This is going into by profile. For some reason, I find it hilarious.

Marxman
Originally posted by darthsith19
No, Juyo was 100% complete. Vaapad, which was a variation of Dooku, wasn't 100% complete. But Juyo was. Dooku didn't use Juyo ever - that scene in AOTC was deleted and in EU Dooku states his distaste for that form.bye Actually... But that's neither here nor there.

darthsith19
Generally isn't considered complete. So sometimes it is. Could you post a link to that wiki article?

LORDSIDIOUS01
Maul and Jinn easily

General Kenobl
O rly?

Marxman
Originally posted by darthsith19
Generally isn't considered complete. So sometimes it is. Could you post a link to that wiki article? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Juyo

Count Makashi
Count with combination of his superior force powers and lightsaber proves beats them with little difficulty.

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