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I have a lot of free time,lol. It does make sense if you think about it.

Originally posted by Darth Oblivion
I have a lot of free time,lol. It does make sense if you think about it.

The idea of free will from a "god" does not make sense to me. Help me to understand your point.

I don't think the possibility of a "being" creating a false sense of free will is very logical. Determinism explains the free will issue clearly. Like Shakyamunison said, help me understand your point.

Originally posted by Hydrono
I don't think the possibility of a "being" creating a false sense of free will is very logical. Determinism explains the free will issue clearly. Like Shakyamunison said, help me understand your point.


Darth Oblivion must have left the forum to do some research.

Originally posted by Mindship
First of all, Descartes was not making a comment about free will. He was trying to "whittle down" his reality to the one thing he could be sure of, and that was Doubt. Because he doubted, he knew he existed.

Secondly: a "false sense of free will"? This is what a determinist would propose, that free will is an illusion. But this could only be determined (pun intended) from a Godly POV.

Thirdly, by definition, an all-powerful being not only could create a false sense of free will, but a true sense as well. Both determinism and free will could co-exist, along with an infinite number of other things which, if attempted to be grasped by the limited human mind, would result in paradox (so for those of you who are now tempted to ask, "How could you have both free will and determinism?" I say, Nothing is impossible for God, and everything is impossible for God...sort of, the ultimate paradox. If this makes absolutely no sense to you, that's a good first step in the right direction ).

Reality is ultimately an ineffable experience, not a concept.

However, to date, there is not observed evidence for your paradoxes.

Reality is a concept. It is a false sense of existance imagined by either a person or something supernatural. Whether or not it is a god is not relevant, just the fact that it is possible for such a thing that can create this illusion of reality is also possible that it can create an illusion of free will. THAT is the basis for my theory.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
However, to date, there is not observed evidence for your paradoxes.

AFAIK, paradox is not an empirical phenomena but a conceptual one.

So, if a person does not "think to be" then they are not? Or is it then they think to be what they think? And who determines this? "To think" and there you are is a figure of speech/thought ..ie ego and though of being in existence here....


Oh and yes this being is if said to be the all can and is author of all free thinking false and not...........it would be the everything .......the every word and thought that would come out of anyone......and with that is the creation made over and over again.

I want some of what you're having.

Why do people say that??
You said:



I said yes......but IT may not be false as what we think it to be...It is only what is and what is is everything that can be thought...understand?

Originally posted by debbiejo
Why do people say that??
You said:

That looks remarkably like what Darth Oblivion said to start the thread.

I said yes......but IT may not be false as what we think it to be...It is only what is and what is is everything that can be thought...understand?
Yes. Now can I have some?

OK

I'm going to reference something and it might make it a little clearer. In Stephen King's books about the Dark Tower, the characters find out that what they thought was reality was nothing more than the imagined world of an author in another world. What I am saying is that maybe, just maybe, it is possible that our world is like that in the book. That what we think is reality is nothing more than than the imagined world of an "author" in another world.

I'd like to think not. It is possible that, yes, we have a destiny and everything we do, everything that happens to us is already set in stone. But is it possible that we are the ones that have carved that stone? We have a free will and we make our own decisions but we have made those decisions long before you encounter them.

Originally posted by Darth Oblivion
I'm going to reference something and it might make it a little clearer. In Stephen King's books about the Dark Tower, the characters find out that what they thought was reality was nothing more than the imagined world of an author in another world. What I am saying is that maybe, just maybe, it is possible that our world is like that in the book. That what we think is reality is nothing more than than the imagined world of an "author" in another world.
Probably the oldest metaphor in the world is God as Dreamer (Brahman giving rise to maya), but certainly "author" is not that different. The idea is the same: the phenomenal world is a false reality, the creation of a vast, unseen consciousness which is the true reality.

You know that every time you say that "God as Dreamer", I'm gonna say..

Originally posted by Mindship
First of all, Descartes was not making a comment about free will. He was trying to "whittle down" his reality to the one thing he could be sure of, and that was Doubt. Because he doubted, he knew he existed.

Secondly: a "false sense of free will"? This is what a determinist would propose, that free will is an illusion. But this could only be determined (pun intended) from a Godly POV.

Thirdly, by definition, an all-powerful being not only could create a false sense of free will, but a true sense as well. Both determinism and free will could co-exist, along with an infinite number of other things which, if attempted to be grasped by the limited human mind, would result in paradox (so for those of you who are now tempted to ask, "How could you have both free will and determinism?" I say, Nothing is impossible for God, and everything is impossible for God...sort of, the ultimate paradox. If this makes absolutely no sense to you, that's a good first step in the right direction ).

Reality is ultimately an ineffable experience, not a concept.

Sure, we can imagine that there might be a being like that. Freaking ****ing unlikely though.


I also, like what I did there.

Originally posted by debbiejo
You know that every time you say that "God as Dreamer", I'm gonna say..


Actually, I can't even imagine it.

Originally posted by goatstradamus
Are you sure that "I think, therefore I am" is ultimately a reasonable/correct statement?
For example, does existence really require thought?

That's not what is implied though.

It says "I think, therefore I am", not "I am, therefore I think".

Originally posted by Mindship

Actually, I can't even imagine it.

Yeah, you can. I mean, you just did. As did everyone else that read your post.

Originally posted by goatstradamus
Are you sure that "I think, therefore I am" is ultimately a reasonable/correct statement?
For example, does existence really require thought?

Reasoning requires Descartes to exist in order to make an argument (in his opinion)

therefore he declared the single most baic thing he could to start his argument

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, you can. I mean, you just did. As did everyone else that read your post. I did, and my brain went way over to the right side to do it........way over.....No left sided brain for my post...

Originally posted by debbiejo
I did, and my brain went way over to the right side to do it........way over.....No left sided brain for my post...

Cool.

I mostly got my idea through a combination of the Dark Tower series and my nagging habit of trying to disprove what is taken and law. I once tried to disprove Einstein's law of "time is relitive".

Originally posted by Darth Oblivion
I mostly got my idea through a combination of the Dark Tower series and my nagging habit of trying to disprove what is taken and law. I once tried to disprove Einstein's law of "time is relitive".

That's nothing to brag about. Generally.

Anyways, check out Bishop George Berkeley's work. You might enjoy it. Similar ideas. Somehow.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, you can. I mean, you just did. As did everyone else that read your post.
No. Everyone understands my words, but to envision such a being...c'est impossible. Might as well try to envision a triangular circle.

Originally posted by Mindship
No. Everyone understands my words, but to envision such a being...c'est impossible. Might as well try to envision a triangular circle.

To imagine that it could exist. To imagine it itself might be rather impossible. Maybe cause it is just against the laws of this Universe and doesn't and can't exist. But that's beside the point. You can imagine that such a thing exists. Kinda like a triangular circle.


(which, by the way, is what I was saying all along)

Originally posted by Bardock42
(which, by the way, is what I was saying all along)

Yeah me 2.

Originally posted by Bardock42
To imagine that it could exist. To imagine it itself might be rather impossible.
It is.

Maybe cause it is just against the laws of this Universe and doesn't and can't exist.
Maybe. Maybe not. Either is an assumption, a conclusion for which there is no empirical proof. At the very least, trying to sensibly imagine a being to which all things are both possible and impossible highlights the limits of both logic and visual reasoning (yes, one could draw a pic of a character and say, "Hey, he can AND can't do anything," but this is just the visual version of stating the concept in words; it's just form, so to speak, w/o substance).

But that's beside the point. You can imagine that such a thing exists.
You can verbalize the concept.

Kinda like a triangular circle.
Please draw me a pic.

Originally posted by Mindship
Please draw me a pic. You were not following our conversation, were you?

Originally posted by Bardock42
You were not following our conversation, were you?
And where do you imagine I stopped following?

Originally posted by Mindship
And where do you imagine I stopped following?

When we "agreed" upon it being unimaginable, but the possibility of it to exist being imaginable.

Originally posted by Mindship
No. Everyone understands my words, but to envision such a being...c'est impossible. Might as well try to envision a triangular circle. Hmmm I wonder where you got that idea......

Originally posted by Bardock42
When we "agreed" upon it being unimaginable, but the possibility of it to exist being imaginable.
That is much more concise and clear than... Thus we are indeed in agreement.

----------------------------------------------------

It came to me in a dream...or someone's dream...sleep1

Originally posted by Mindship
That is much more concise and clear than... Thus we are indeed in agreement.

Yes, I was aware of that.

Originally posted by Bardock42
That's nothing to brag about. Generally.

Anyways, check out Bishop George Berkeley's work. You might enjoy it. Similar ideas. Somehow.

I do brag about it though.

Originally posted by Darth Oblivion
I do brag about it though.
Yeah, that's nothing someone should brag about though.

Lies! Bardock brags about everything!

Originally posted by BobbyD
Lies! Bardock brags about everything!



Well, I would say it is alright to brag about if you went about it scientifically. Just to doubt something (that works really extraordinarily well) though is more stupid.

*just stays quiet*

Great post.......

Originally posted by debbiejo
Great post.......

I know ain't it?

Psst.... *whispers* Hey Deb, I figure if Bardock can't hear me talking bad about him behind his back then it's all good. What do you think?

Bardock is like everywhere.....


He does ---> A lot..

Originally posted by debbiejo
Bardock is like everywhere.....


He does ---> A lot..

What is it you are saying? And in what way does it relate to the topic?

Which I am not quite certain of anyways.

Originally posted by Bardock42
...And in what way does it relate to the topic?
Which I am not quite certain of anyways.
Which brings us back to the topic (well, first post anyway). Decartes was uncertain, and because he doubted, he knew he existed.

Originally posted by Mindship
Which brings us back to the topic (well, first post anyway). Decartes was uncertain, and because he doubted, he knew he existed.

He might have assumed he existed. Though I will go so far as to accept this reasoning for myself. Not only doubting but also because apparently I think and perceive things. I would agree that I exist. Though I don't know what "I" is.

I still stand by my theory. Though you may think you exist it is possible that the-whatever it is-is simply making you think you think you exist. Or at least that is what I believe.

Originally posted by Darth Oblivion
I still stand by my theory. Though you may think you exist it is possible that the-whatever it is-is simply making you think you think you exist. Or at least that is what I believe.
The thing is, I'm certain I do exist because I'm aware of it, whatever kind of existence it may be. I'm aware of Something. As to what that Something is...well, that's the $64 million question.

In a similar vein, a few times I've been able to ask other "people" in my dreams how it feels to be in my dream. The usual response is what I call a "momentary loss of animation" in their faces.

The point is, you're wondering whether you exist or not, so you exist, because if you didn't exist you wouldn't be able to contemplate it. In whatever reality that may be, you exist.

It could be a world created by a God as a test before you reach the ultimate goal of salvation. It could be a universe with a beginning and an end and you share that finiteness and one day will cease to exist. It could even be the imagination of a world renowned novelist, you still exist in the reality of the novel.

However you look at it, you are able to contemplate your existence, therefore you exist.

Originally posted by Mindship
The thing is, I'm certain I do exist because I'm aware of it, whatever kind of existence it may be. I'm aware of Something. As to what that Something is...well, that's the $64 million question.

agreed.

Originally posted by Darth Oblivion
I still stand by my theory. Though you may think you exist it is possible that the-whatever it is-is simply making you think you think you exist. Or at least that is what I believe.

...

Well, the problem is that alone by your phrasing of that you imply that some sort of "you" exists.

But I totally agree with you. Though I accepted my own existence I know that I can't be sure of it, even if I can not imagine in any way the way i could be, I can imagine that it might be true.

well, i guess that's true.

An unimaginable truth; the mysterium tremendum.