Error in the Bible

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Lord Urizen
"One day, while randomly reading my Bible, I made a startling discovery. After reading 2 Kings 19, I flipped a couple of pages and read some more. To my astonishment I found myself reading the same words. Now, class, open your Bibles to 2 Kings 19--and also to Isaiah 37.These books are word for word identical! No bible scholar has been able to give me a satisfactory explanation for this. (Maybe the scholar who double-titled heeded Jesus' warning and didn't take out one tittle----Alex) "



http://ejm.tripod.com/who_wrote_bible.htm





Why are these two passages exactly the same word for word ?



Can someone explain this to me ? Why would "God" give two passages that are EXACTLY the same ?????


Does God repeat himself ?


Or perhaps is this an error in the human editting of our current Bible ?

peejayd
* same verses does not mean error...

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day."
Joshua 10:13

Nellinator
The author of this website is a bit of a joke. He claims to be analytical, but he were, he would have no problems with the Galatians passage.

There are two reasons I see for these to be the same.
1) In the case that you didn't read the passage, it would be important to note that it deals with the prophecy of Isaiah, an important prophecy, which is why it belongs Isaiah. This prophecy and its fulfillment had a major impact on the history of Israel as it was the destruction of Assyria, giving it a place in the history book of 2 Kings.

2) The books of the OT were copied on seperate scrolls and reading in the Temple involved reading from one scroll. The process of copying of scrolls was a complex ritual that left no room for error (hence the absolute symmetry between the passages). Since I have shown that this passage has a place in both books and that both would be incomplete without it, it is easy to understand that if the Priest were reading from one scroll or the other and that passage was left out, the Word would be incomplete. Therefore, it is best included in both so that reading from either scroll would give historical setting for further reading and create unity and flow on both scrolls.

muslimscholar
here are more contradictions and erros

http://www.islamway.com/english/images/library/contradictions.htm

Shakyamunison
There are no holly books..... except for mine. stick out tongue

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
The author of this website is a bit of a joke. He claims to be analytical, but he were, he would have no problems with the Galatians passage.


I found his argument pretty valid *surprise, surprise*

I can relate, because being an ex-Christian like him, he admits that what actually turned him away from Christianity was the Bible itself...same here.

When I actually READ the Bible more and more, in effort to develop stronger Faith, it really just turned me away.

The condoning of violence is the number one reason I reject the Bible. The Bible contradicts my own personal morality, and due to all the contradictions the Bible DOES in fact possess, I could not make myself beleif in something with such error.






Originally posted by Nellinator
There are two reasons I see for these to be the same.
1) In the case that you didn't read the passage, it would be important to note that it deals with the prophecy of Isaiah, an important prophecy, which is why it belongs Isaiah. This prophecy and its fulfillment had a major impact on the history of Israel as it was the destruction of Assyria, giving it a place in the history book of 2 Kings.


So what ?


Why repeat it word for word ?

Sounds like lazy writing to me.....






Originally posted by Nellinator
2) The books of the OT were copied on seperate scrolls and reading in the Temple involved reading from one scroll. The process of copying of scrolls was a complex ritual that left no room for error (hence the absolute symmetry between the passages). Since I have shown that this passage has a place in both books and that both would be incomplete without it, it is easy to understand that if the Priest were reading from one scroll or the other and that passage was left out, the Word would be incomplete. Therefore, it is best included in both so that reading from either scroll would give historical setting for further reading and create unity and flow on both scrolls.




I understand that any human can make an honest mistake like that while putting the Bible together...but thats EXACTLY my point !



Human Beings wrote and organized the Bible...its self-evident, and that simple. If a Perfect God truly wrote it, there would be no contradictions, no confusion, no eaxct repeats, no errors, and no hate and no violence....but since the Bible possesses all these things, it seems more human and not divine.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by peejayd
* same verses does not mean error...

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day."
Joshua 10:13


Holy Scriptures of the Orgasmism

Testament of Orgy Kalima
Clause 79
Verses xxx 51-53

"Thy sun and the moon mate to create thy blue sky

For even thy celestial bodies submit to the power of Orgasm

which is ultamate truth and bliss"

Storm
How many times do I have to ask you to quit that? Will a ban do it?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Storm
How many times do I have to ask you to quit that? Will a ban do it?



To quit what ? If people want to argue scripture, then I'll argue scripture as well stick out tongue

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
To quit what ? If people want to argue scripture, then I'll argue scripture as well stick out tongue

Lord Urizen, don't be stupid, you know what storm is talking about. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Lord Urizen
laughing


I'm just playing man, chill out



Somehow it's okay to tell people they deserve to burn in hell for all eternity, but it's not okay to worship orgasm ?


Whatever....Storm doesn't like me, it's that simple. It seems I'm just giving her more ammo to use against me

Storm
I' m not going to waste any more words on it. Keep playing your silly game, and you' ll suffer the consequences, just like anyone else would.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
laughing


I'm just playing man, chill out



Somehow it's okay to tell people they deserve to burn in hell for all eternity, but it's not okay to worship orgasm ?


Whatever....Storm doesn't like me, it's that simple. It seems I'm giving her more ammo to use against me

Storm is not out to get you, if she was, you would be gone.

Make your point the way you did above and people will listen.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Storm
I' m not going to waste any more words on it. Keep playing your silly game, and you' ll suffer the consequences.




I didn't mean to get you angry Storm, please relax for a second.

You know I love you droolio


I guess I should stick to bashing Christianity with rage and fury.....that seemed to upset you less.

Lord Urizen
Anyways this is getting off topic...



Why would two identical versus exist in the Bible with two different authors ?



Does this not imply error in the editting of the Bible ?

Lord Urizen
That's it ? No one can solve this problem for me ?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Anyways this is getting off topic...



Why would two identical versus exist in the Bible with two different authors ?



Does this not imply error in the editting of the Bible ?

it might be the result of people with similar views trying to express them at different periods in time.

When translating the passages the writers may have translated similar passages identicaly (perhaps due to having seen one or the other first)

Nellinator
First off, in the Galatians passage let it suffice to say that the two words translated as burden are in fact different words. However, his masterful analysis couldn't see what I saw within three seconds.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Anyways this is getting off topic...



Why would two identical versus exist in the Bible with two different authors ?



Does this not imply error in the editting of the Bible ?
Well, I did a little research for you and it would seem that only one is the original, the Isaiah account. Kings is first and foremost a history of the Kings of Judah and plainly acknowledges that it is a compilation from many sources. Parallels in Kings are found in Jeremiah and Isaiah. However, the exact copying shows that the original (Isaiah) was copied perfectly into Kings so as to not tamper with the word of God.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Storm
How many times do I have to ask you to quit that? Will a ban do it? I find you blatantly discriminate against Orgasmisms. I, personally, as Orgasmists, find that unacceptable. Could we please quote our scripture?

debbiejo
laughing out loud

FeceMan
If you'll notice in the very beginning of the verse, the people involved go to Isaiah for help.

Also, there is one extra verse in Isaiah 37.

(Though, I'm horrified that Urizen attacks the validity of the Bible by calling it "lazy writing."wink

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Bardock42
I find you blatantly discriminate against Orgasmisms. I, personally, as Orgasmists, find that unacceptable. Could we please quote our scripture?


It's religious discrimination I tell you !

FeceMan
You know, the more I consider this, the more I realize what a joke it is.

Is it so terribly unlikely that Isaiah and the author of Kings corroborated their writings so that they were wholly accurate of the events that transpired?

peejayd
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Holy Scriptures of the Orgasmism

Testament of Orgy Kalima
Clause 79
Verses xxx 51-53

"Thy sun and the moon mate to create thy blue sky

For even thy celestial bodies submit to the power of Orgasm

which is ultamate truth and bliss"

* you claimed there's an error because of two identical verses? i answered you with a verse that tells you that some events are also written in other books, for example the book of Joshua, some of its contents are also written in the book of Jasher... it's a real pity that when you see a Bible verse, you automatically resorted to this silly post and did not even pause and understand the point i gave... wink

peejayd
Originally posted by peejayd
* you claimed there's an error because of two identical verses? i answered you with a verse that tells you that some events are also written in other books, for example the book of Joshua, some of its contents are also written in the book of Jasher... it's a real pity that when you see a Bible verse, you automatically resorted to this silly post and did not even pause to understand the point i gave... wink

peejayd
* sorry for the double/triple post... hehehe... smile

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by peejayd
Originally posted by peejayd
* you claimed there's an error because of two identical verses? i answered you with a verse that tells you that some events are also written in other books, for example the book of Joshua, some of its contents are also written in the book of Jasher... it's a real pity that when you see a Bible verse, you automatically resorted to this silly post and did not even pause and understand the point i gave... wink

I copied you copying you. eek!

Now tell me wh you did that. mad stick out tongue

oh I see (odd mistake though)

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by peejayd
* you claimed there's an error because of two identical verses? i answered you with a verse that tells you that some events are also written in other books, for example the book of Joshua, some of its contents are also written in the book of Jasher... it's a real pity that when you see a Bible verse, you automatically resorted to this silly post and did not even pause and understand the point i gave... wink



Cuz i didn't get your point...you always try to validate scripture with other scripture, and the point is that does not work...

That's like me proving my own point with my own reasoning, and ignoring and outside or universal source to back me up.


You didn't answer me why would a scripture be repeated word for word ? What is the purpose of that ?

peejayd
* the reason was explained by mr.nellinator... and the verse i gave proves that there are really contents in some books that are also recorded in other books... wink

debbiejo
Well a person cannot trust that all Isaiah said is actually from Isaiahs mouth.

How hast thou fallen from heaven, Helel's son Shaher! Thou didst say in thy heart, I will ascend to heaven, above the circumpolar stars I will raise my thrown, and I will dwell on the Mount of Council in the back of the north, I will mount on the back of a cloud, I will be like unto Elyon..

Sound familiar?


"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: . . . I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14:12-14

Pagan scriptures of the 7th century BC include this little dirge, so centuries later, a Jewish scribe copied this Canaanite scripture into the Bible and pretended it was written by Isaiah..Quoting Isaiah 14:12-14.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
"One day, while randomly reading my Bible, I made a startling discovery. After reading 2 Kings 19, I flipped a couple of pages and read some more. To my astonishment I found myself reading the same words. Now, class, open your Bibles to 2 Kings 19--and also to Isaiah 37.These books are word for word identical! No bible scholar has been able to give me a satisfactory explanation for this. (Maybe the scholar who double-titled heeded Jesus' warning and didn't take out one tittle----Alex) "



http://ejm.tripod.com/who_wrote_bible.htm





Why are these two passages exactly the same word for word ?



Can someone explain this to me ? Why would "God" give two passages that are EXACTLY the same ?????


Does God repeat himself ?


Or perhaps is this an error in the human editting of our current Bible ? The Bible says "the" 5,000 times. God is repetitive. no expression

Nellinator
Originally posted by debbiejo
Well a person cannot trust that all Isaiah said is actually from Isaiahs mouth.

How hast thou fallen from heaven, Helel's son Shaher! Thou didst say in thy heart, I will ascend to heaven, above the circumpolar stars I will raise my thrown, and I will dwell on the Mount of Council in the back of the north, I will mount on the back of a cloud, I will be like unto Elyon..

Sound familiar?


"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: . . . I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14:12-14

Pagan scriptures of the 7th century BC include this little dirge, so centuries later, a Jewish scribe copied this Canaanite scripture into the Bible and pretended it was written by Isaiah..Quoting Isaiah 14:12-14.
Umm.. you do realize that Isaiah was from the 8th century BC, making the pagan inscription the copy. Nice try though.

debbiejo
Much of the OT is borrowed from other histories like the Canaanites. Hebrew scriptures borrowed and adapted earlier neighboring Middle Eastern myths from Egypt, Canaan, and particularly Mesopotamia. The Genesis creation myths, for example, have parallels in the older Babylonian Enuma elish with its conflict between watery chaos of the earth (the goddess Tiamat) and stormy wind of the sky (the god Marduk). The story of Noah and the flood has prior analogues in a third-millennium Sumerian flood myth, the myth of Ziusudra, as well as in two Akkadian versions, the epic of Atrahasis and the epic of Gilgamesh, which both also have versions of the paradisal garden. Gilgamesh also employs a narrative of a magical plant that is said to bestow a godlike quality on humans, similar to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in Genesis. The Genesis myth of humans being molded from clay is found in the more ancient Egyptian myths about the potter god Khnum. Mesopotamian myths of conflicts between elemental forces--a male sky god against a watery goddess or sea monster--can be found in redacted forms in various places in Hebrew scriptures, such as in the figure of Leviathan and in poetic or prophetic traditions about such monsters.

http://community.tncc.edu/faculty/longt/REL200/intro_to_Jewish_ss.htm

http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/bible.htm

This last link is pretty excellent....

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Nellinator
Umm.. you do realize that Isaiah was from the 8th century BC, making the pagan inscription the copy. Nice try though.

Isaiah lived during the late eighth and early seventh centuries BCE. Nice try though.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Isaiah lived during the late eighth and early seventh centuries BCE. Nice try though.
If you want to be picky yes. The dates are slightly cloudy, he may not have made it into the 7th century, but it is thought he lived probably less then ten years into the 7th century. The point being that he predates the inscription debbiejo is talking about.

Nellinator
Originally posted by debbiejo
Much of the OT is borrowed from other histories like the Canaanites. Hebrew scriptures borrowed and adapted earlier neighboring Middle Eastern myths from Egypt, Canaan, and particularly Mesopotamia. The Genesis creation myths, for example, have parallels in the older Babylonian Enuma elish with its conflict between watery chaos of the earth (the goddess Tiamat) and stormy wind of the sky (the god Marduk). The story of Noah and the flood has prior analogues in a third-millennium Sumerian flood myth, the myth of Ziusudra, as well as in two Akkadian versions, the epic of Atrahasis and the epic of Gilgamesh, which both also have versions of the paradisal garden. Gilgamesh also employs a narrative of a magical plant that is said to bestow a godlike quality on humans, similar to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in Genesis. The Genesis myth of humans being molded from clay is found in the more ancient Egyptian myths about the potter god Khnum. Mesopotamian myths of conflicts between elemental forces--a male sky god against a watery goddess or sea monster--can be found in redacted forms in various places in Hebrew scriptures, such as in the figure of Leviathan and in poetic or prophetic traditions about such monsters.

http://community.tncc.edu/faculty/longt/REL200/intro_to_Jewish_ss.htm

http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/bible.htm

This last link is pretty excellent....
You should probably realize that I have read all the various flood accounts you mentioned. You should probably reread your Genesis accounts though because you are twisting them pretty far to make your arguments even semi-valid. If you didn't twist them you would have nothing. And that second link sucked. It proved nothing and twisted a lot of things in its favour. There are far more compelling things out there.

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by Nellinator
If you want to be picky yes. The dates are slightly cloudy, he may not have made it into the 7th century, but it is thought he lived probably less then ten years into the 7th century. The point being that he predates the inscription debbiejo is talking about.

Yes, I do want to get picky. Isaiah lived during the late eighth and early seventh centuries BCE, around the same time the Canaanite passage was written. He does not "predate" the passage at all.

FeceMan
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Yes, I do want to get picky. Isaiah lived during the late eighth and early seventh centuries BCE, around the same time the Canaanite passage was written. He does not "predate" the passage at all.
It would depend on how late the pagan passages were written in the 7th century.

Lord Urizen
The fact that the term "Hades" is even used in the New Testament, clearly and painfully shows the Pagan influence onto the Bible...how can you know this, and just ignore it ?

FeceMan
Hades has the same meaning as the Hebrew word sheol.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
Hades has the same meaning as the Hebrew word sheol.


1) Which came first ? Sheol or Hades ?


2) Why not just use the word Shoel, instead of the Greek word for underworld ?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) Which came first ? Sheol or Hades ?


2) Why not just use the word Shoel, instead of the Greek word for underworld ?
'Cause...'cause they were written in Greek?

And I don't know which came first.

Lord Urizen
Hades - Hell

Elysian Fields- Heaven



Why does Greek Mythology have concepts long before Christianity stole them ? erm

Lord Urizen
The Evolution of Hell



"Like other 1st-century Jews literate in Greek, early Christians used the Greek word "hades" as the translation for the Hebrew word "sheol."


This use appears in Luke's story of Lazarus and the rich man. Both underworlds had originally been dark and gloomy with no relation to afterlife rewards or punishments. Since the writing of the Hebrew Bible, however, the popular concept of sheol had come to include particular judgment.


Thus hades was seen as a place of comfort for the righteous (in the bosom of Abraham) and torment for the wicked. Here the dead awaited the universal resurrection on Judgment Day. Early church fathers defended this view of the afterlife against the view that the soul went immediately to heaven or to hell after the death of the body.

The doctrine of hades exists in substantially its original Christian form in the Eastern Orthodox Church. It also exists in its Old Testament form, as the abode of the unconscious dead, in certain other denominations, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses. In mainstream Western Christianity, however, it has largely been replaced by the concept of the soul going straight to hell, heaven, or (in Roman Catholicism) purgatory."

FeceMan
The reason people were "stowed" in "Hades" is because the blood of the Son had not yet been shed.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FeceMan
The reason people were "stowed" in "Hades" is because the blood of the Son had not yet been shed.


What was God waiting for ?


And that also invites my other question, why does God want Blood so much ?

FeceMan
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What was God waiting for ?


And that also invites my other question, why does God want Blood so much ?
Atonement, and you already made a thread on that.

peejayd
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
This use appears in Luke's story of Lazarus and the rich man. Both underworlds had originally been dark and gloomy with no relation to afterlife rewards or punishments. Since the writing of the Hebrew Bible, however, the popular concept of sheol had come to include particular judgment.

* what?

"But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish."
Luke 16:25

* Lazarus was comforted... and the rich man was in anguish...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Thus hades was seen as a place of comfort for the righteous (in the bosom of Abraham) and torment for the wicked.

* according to the parable:

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
Luke 16:22-23

* Lazarus was carried into Abraham's bosom... whilst the rich man was put to Hades...


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Here the dead awaited the universal resurrection on Judgment Day. Early church fathers defended this view of the afterlife against the view that the soul went immediately to heaven or to hell after the death of the body.

"In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind."
Job 12:10

* the soul will return in God's hands...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The doctrine of hades exists in substantially its original Christian form in the Eastern Orthodox Church. It also exists in its Old Testament form, as the abode of the unconscious dead, in certain other denominations, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses. In mainstream Western Christianity, however, it has largely been replaced by the concept of the soul going straight to hell, heaven, or (in Roman Catholicism) purgatory."

* purgatory is not in the Bible... it was just an invention of the Catholics... wink

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