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I was wondering if luke actually has the strnght to beat him or if he just got lucky? did vader want to lose?

vader does have better control of the force right? why did he not use that much in return of the jedi i.e force choke?

Luke used his anger, was younger and fysically fitter. Dunno really, but Luke won.

CAN Luke be stronger than Vader? Yes, though only because of the injuries.

WAS he in ROTJ? Disputed call. he's still a Padawan. I think he simply scored a hero's victory. Good guys do that in films. And being physically fitter helped of course.

You said Luke was.........................a Padawan!!

im going to have to go and have a sit down and do some breathing exercises

Errr... well, ok, but he was, and that was rather the point... he doesn't become a Jedi until after he has faced Vader, and the Emperor calls him one.

i dont disagree
i just feel uneasy hearing Luke being reffered to as a "Padawan"
just the same as if anyone mentioned his "midichlorians"

i thought he claimed to be a JEDI just prior to the Emperor

He claimed to be a Jedi several times, it simply wasn;t true until thnat moment.

And geez, c'mon, not liking the PT is one thing, but Padawan is just a name for a Jedi in training, it can't be that objectionable!

I agree with Ush. Yoda says it quite clearly: one thing remains! He must face Vader, I guess Yoda used that confrontational battle as a replacement for the old trials.

if Luke was refered to as a Padawan by Yoda or Ben in the OT...fine
but he wasnt

give it a couple of years and im sure Frank Oz will spend 5 mins in a recording studio so Yoda can refer to Luke as "my young Padawan"
im sure Luke will be sporting a CGI Padawan braid by then too

Originally posted by queeq
I agree with Ush. Yoda says it quite clearly: one thing remains! He must face Vader, I guess Yoda used that confrontational battle as a replacement for the old trials.


If Luke was determined to become a Jedi he should have been in training with Yoda instead of rescuing Han
im sure they could have knocked up a bunch of rebels to take out Jabbas palace
no trials
Vader and Palps had to be taken out
If Luke had the strength to do that hes obv a Jedi

Err, well, Luke didn't actually have the strength to take out Palps, did he...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err, well, Luke didn't actually have the strength to take out Palps, did he...

sorry my mistake about Luke taking out Palps dunno how i slipped up there

so what would the point be of sending Luke off to take out Vader if he was most likely going to wacked by the Emperor shortly afterwards?

theres no mention of taking out Palps to become a Jedi
its all about Vader
did Yoda assume that if Luke took out Vader hed have the strength to take out Palpatine as well?
didnt he think thatd be too much for a "padawan"
how did Yoda know that Luke wasnt going to be put in a cell till he broke and be dispatched if he didnt turn
how did he know that Vader and Palps were not going to take on Luke at the same time
we could be here all day

good old Yoda and Ben
good youve taken out Vader...your a Jedi
now the options are
a) Join Palps and take Vaders place
b) die

and everyones back to square one

Originally of course, Luke would only fight and feat Vader. The decisive battle between Luke and Palpy would have been in Ep9 or Ep12. GL decided to rush things.

Originally posted by vintageSW77
sorry my mistake about Luke taking out Palps dunno how i slipped up there

so what would the point be of sending Luke off to take out Vader if he was most likely going to wacked by the Emperor shortly afterwards?

theres no mention of taking out Palps to become a Jedi
its all about Vader
did Yoda assume that if Luke took out Vader hed have the strength to take out Palpatine as well?
didnt he think thatd be too much for a "padawan"
how did Yoda know that Luke wasnt going to be put in a cell till he broke and be dispatched if he didnt turn
how did he know that Vader and Palps were not going to take on Luke at the same time
we could be here all day

good old Yoda and Ben
good youve taken out Vader...your a Jedi
now the options are
a) Join Palps and take Vaders place
b) die

and everyones back to square one

Hmmm....I have never really thought of that

Obi-Wan and Yoda simply had no other option. There wasn't anyone else. But they also knew they were doing the right thing- that's the Force for you.

Yoda was simply making the situation to Luke plain- he wouldn't have the right to call himself a Jedi until he had returned to face Vader. The training in ESB showed the Vader issue was Luke's main emotional stumbling block anyway.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Obi-Wan and Yoda simply had no other option. There wasn't anyone else.


im getting into the territory im not keen on but wasnt Leia option number 2??

couldnt they have trained her as force spirits if Luke HAD copped it after saying no to Palps?
seeing as Luke WAS a Jedi after he defeated Vader if he had died would he have become a force spirit too alongside Obi,Yoda and now thanks to the PT Qui Gon.
couldnt they all have trained Leia into a sh*t hot Jedi to finish off Palps once and for all??

That'd had been the second option, yes. But if Luke had joined Palpy, the same if not bigger problem was there. If Luke had died, then Leia could be that hot Jedi.... They had some options...

I can't recall Yoda or Obi-Wan ever mentioning that Luke had to deal with Vader while Palpatine was present. They didn't say, "Get 'em both at once Luke."

"do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor or suffer your father's fate you will"

i guess he thought Palps would be around somewhere

Luke was a bit of a dick
its all good and honourable chucking your lightsabre and saying "you have failed your highness"
what did he think the consequences would be
did he think he was sacrficing himself...biding time till the rebels struck??
what did he think Palps would do
hang around for the death star to blow??
let Luke go??
persuade him to turn with small talk??
Palpatine :"You will not turn???... ok fair enough but let me help you find that lightsabre first.................................found it!!!!!.......................ok good bye young Skywalker
sorry i couldnt persuade you to join the dark side..its so HARD finding an apprentice....you wouldnt BELIEVE the trouble ive gone through with apprentices ..cut in two,decapitated...this one here i even created through the force(wink) and look what good that did me....one arm,no legs and a chest infection!!! god its such a pain!!!!
you got a ride???...no??.. here take my shuttle.......you wont change your mind about turning??....heres my number if you do...say hello to your sister for me....ok BYE!!!!"


its a good job it panned out like it did

Lukes plan was to find the good in his father. Maybe escape with him, maybe not. He assumed the rebels would blow up the Death Star without a problem, he figured the Emperor knew nothing of the attacks. Luke was ready to die there.

And he didn't.

ill just stick to posting pics

Vader picked up a man with one hand. Luke was sweating from carrying Yoda on his back. Who do you think is stronger?

Only from carrying Yoda? I guess the hours of running in a swamp wouldn't cause him to sweat.

Beside, Yoda has nibbling too much of the root leaf goodies, he's put on a lot of weight.

well vader underestimated and was taunting luke the whole time, Luke as of ROTJ isnt stronger than vader.. yet

Yet, he won.

I think that at that very moment, when he used his anger... he became much more powerfull.

He jumped up several levels in his Force strength, and as mentioned was younger, faster, and more fit.

Luke still needed more training and after that, more experience if he was to face Vader as a more powerfull Jedi.

But as the son of the Chosen One, when he tapped into his anger and let the hate of the darkside flow through him......

Vader was f*cked.



And to answer vintage, I'm guessing that Yoda and Ben planned on Luke defeating Vader on his own, then fighting the Emporer later.

Yoda says "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emporer" (from personal experience).... but it's not clear that he meant it for Luke's upcoming confrontation with Vader.

He was dying and giving instructions to be carried out later, such as "Pass on what you have learned", etc....



If this is incorrect, then it's possible that they may have thought Luke and Vader could defeat the emporer together, were Luke to reach him.

Originally posted by sithsaber408

And to answer vintage, I'm guessing that Yoda and Ben planned on Luke defeating Vader on his own, then fighting the Emporer later.

Yoda says "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emporer" (from personal experience).... but it's not clear that he meant it for Luke's upcoming confrontation with Vader.

He was dying and giving instructions to be carried out later, such as "Pass on what you have learned", etc....



If this is incorrect, then it's possible that they may have thought Luke and Vader could defeat the emporer together, were Luke to reach him.

Yoda was a bit presumptious then wasnt he!!

He was.... due to the bloody PT.

I don't know, maybe no...

CLONES!

Ya know... Makashi says DOOKU all the time. You are a bit like him with your CLONES!

The force was weak with vader thats why he turned to the dark side . Luke was stronger he did not give in to the darkside . The force was strong with him .

so luke wins

non-mech vader > luke

luke > mech-vader

end

What deep insight.

Originally posted by queeq
Ya know... Makashi says DOOKU all the time. You are a bit like him with your CLONES!

DOOKU
and Vader is more powerful by ROTJ, but later Luke becomes so much more powerful, that Vader is a joke to him.

And he couldn't stop laughing.

Was it that funny?

Originally posted by queeq
Ya know... Makashi says DOOKU all the time. You are a bit like him with your CLONES!

I know. This thread was already derailed anyway...so I gave it a point.

Well, in that case, I may as well say:

DROIDS!!!!

I might as wel say: CLOSINg.