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Vulcan energy manipulation:7
Tyrant energy manipulation:6

http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3386/untitlediz9.jpg

To be fair a person with Energy Projection of 2 is not necessarily weaker then a person with an Energy Projection ranking of 7.

IIRC Sentry and Iceman are 3 and ALL Telepaths are 5 regardless of how powerful they are.

I'm sorry but Marvels Opinion>Yours.

Handbooks are a pile of ****. I used to take them seriously. What also annoys me is that one strength level is 800lbs to 25 tons...WTF!

Originally posted by Kallark-Kent
I'm sorry but Marvels Opinion>Yours.

No !!!!!

Good writers > desperate morons asked to write the handbooks.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Vulcan energy manipulation:7
Tyrant energy manipulation:6


Yeah, but Tyrant is overated badly on this board.

Originally posted by By Crom!
Yeah, but Tyrant is overated badly on this board.

Agreed !

Originally posted by Kallark-Kent
I'm sorry but Marvels Opinion>Yours.

No no.

Nooo nonono.

That was disproven years ago. Literally.

You DO know that handbooks aren't written by comic book writers, right? And you do know that it has been constantly proven that many of the stats in handbooks are not based in comics at all?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
No no.

Nooo nonono.

That was disproven years ago. Literally.

You DO know that handbooks aren't written by comic book writers, right? And you do know that it has been constantly proven that many of the stats in handbooks are not based in comics at all?

All true but, Marvels opinoin is at the end of the day greater than our opinion, just not the handbooks. Except when it's convenient to use them as secondary sources.

Originally posted by By Crom!
All true but, Marvels opinoin is at the end of the day greater than our opinion, just not the handbooks. Except when it's convenient to use them as secondary sources.

I agree, the people given the job of writing the handbooks are obviously Manchurians, who cannot be trusted on any occasions.

Originally posted by Doctor S.T.D.
I agree, the people given the job of writing the handbooks are obviously Manchurians, who cannot be trusted on any occasions.

Well if there not written by comic writers then there not very reliable are they?

Most handbook facts haven't changed in decades.

Annihilus, for instance, was never a big deal before annihilation, so his handbook stats reflect his abilities back when he first appeared.

Originally posted by Scoobless
Most handbook facts haven't changed in decades.

Annihilus, for instance, was never a big deal before annihilation, so his handbook stats reflect his abilities back when he first appeared.

Yeah and why the **** do they say **** like Daredevil has athletic agility when he can dodge bullets? They've been saying that **** for years.

He can't dodge bullets.

Originally posted by Scoobless
He can't dodge bullets.

Yeah he can your thinking of Ultimate DD. We discussed this already there was a panel from a comic where he said he could.

So then who does write the handbooks?

Originally posted by Scoobless
He can't dodge bullets.

Originally posted by Scoobless
He can't dodge bullets.

Ahh the old internet forum chestnut of non super speedsters dodging bullets.

Originally posted by Mindship
So then who does write the handbooks?

Dunno, but not the comic writers.

Originally posted by Mindship
So then who does write the handbooks?

An editor or two and researchers.

by crom!, i think you're right!

Originally posted by manorastroman
by crom!, i think you're right!




By Crom! Thank you.

Originally posted by By Crom!
An editor or two and researchers.

Well there not very good at their job.

A good majority of things in the handbooks are accurate though

and if not specifically accurate, it probably reflects how the people at Marvel feel about the characters more than what they have been written to do.

Its an interesting debate, handbook vs showings, though I prefer the later.

I don't know, I could be wrong on this one. I think the Man-Thing entry was really accurate...

I really hate it when people think that when some shmuck who barely does any research slaps "Class 60" on character who has gone toe to toe with Hulk it automatically deletes 40+ year of comics the character has had...

I think a huge problem is that it is only a measure of 1-7

there is no way to accurately group so many characters by groups of seven.

So, the way I see it, is they end up giving Namor a lower number, just to show he isn't as strong as the infinitely strong Hulk, however, yes, clearly against prior showings.

It is ridiculous, I don't understand this desire people have to place numbers on things.

Primary Source - Comic

Secondary Source - Updated Official Handbook.

Last Resort - Fan Sites, Wiki etc..

Here is the worst case of all...
Look where Surfer is.
http://www.hulkmovie.com/images/hulkmash/MU%20Strength%20Chart.jpg

That's right, they said Surfer was in the same strength class as Spider-Man, and Ghost Rider... and beneath Iron Man...

Captain Britain was in the mediumweights with Beast

Maybe at that point in time, it may have been accurate.

Anywho, the only thing that is really accurate about handbooks is the history part. The ratings are more or less ham handed.

Originally posted by bigbran
Here is the worst case of all...
Look where Surfer is.
http://www.hulkmovie.com/images/hulkmash/MU%20Strength%20Chart.jpg

That's right, they said Surfer was in the same strength class as Spider-Man, and Ghost Rider... and beneath Iron Man...
Whoah... Where did that chart con from? I could spot 20 inaccuraces in it, easy.

Originally posted by bigbran
Here is the worst case of all...
Look where Surfer is.
http://www.hulkmovie.com/images/hulkmash/MU%20Strength%20Chart.jpg

That's right, they said Surfer was in the same strength class as Spider-Man, and Ghost Rider... and beneath Iron Man...

I already knew that Spider-man was a liar. The guy says things like "Captain America punches with the power of an A-Bomb!" or "I have 40x the reflexes of a normal man!" with a straight face.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I already knew that Spider-man was a liar. The guy says things like "Captain America punches with the power of an A-Bomb!" or "I have 40x the reflexes of a normal man!" with a straight face.

Wolverine says he's the best he is at what he does.

And what he does is suck.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Wolverine says he's the best he is at what he does.

And what he does is suck.

That doesn't bode well for Spidy then; considering his track record against Wolverine and all

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
That doesn't bode well for Spidy then; considering his track record against Wolverine and all

Recently it seems that Wolverine has a worse record against windows.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Recently it seems that Wolverine has a worse record against windows.

... I don't get it.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Anywho, the only thing that is really accurate about handbooks is the history part. The ratings are more or less ham handed.

Actually I had a few problems with some of the history in several entries.

I love how everyone gets so worked up about this stuff:

1. Comics are about the stories and characters. Internet-forum battle geeks aren't really on the writers' minds when then pen something (usually at least).
2. Everything varies wildly. Handbooks, writers, individual showings/feats from characters. It's the nature of our hobby.
3. We're probably more versed than anyone, because of how much we pay attention to it, on characters' exact power levels.
4. That pic up there is, judging by the Spidey artwork, early 70's at best. Don't get your panties in a knot over it. lol

I remember having a discussion once with someone about whether we were more qualified to talk about characters than Stan Lee. And the sh*t of it is, we probably are. I doubt Stan is as versed in the continuity of many of his own creations as we are....it's the nature of the beast. He's an industry giant, and a comic legend, but he'd get wtf-bbq-pwnerized in, say, the current tourney we're having.

^ Cosigned!

Though we all get carried away at times, with battles and whatnot, in the end it is all about the story and character development. We probably shouldn't get as worked up as we do (in general). But on the other hand it is fun debating all this stuff, just as long as you don't take it too seriously.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
I love how everyone gets so worked up about this stuff:

1. Comics are about the stories and characters. Internet-forum battle geeks aren't really on the writers' minds when then pen something (usually at least).
2. Everything varies wildly. Handbooks, writers, individual showings/feats from characters. It's the nature of our hobby.
3. We're probably more versed than anyone, because of how much we pay attention to it, on characters' exact power levels.
4. That pic up there is, judging by the Spidey artwork, early 70's at best. Don't get your panties in a knot over it. lol

I remember having a discussion once with someone about whether we were more qualified to talk about characters than Stan Lee. And the sh*t of it is, we probably are. I doubt Stan is as versed in the continuity of many of his own creations as we are....it's the nature of the beast. He's an industry giant, and a comic legend, but he'd get wtf-bbq-pwnerized in, say, the current tourney we're having.


Kinda scary that a bunch of guys on an internet forum know more about comics than the actual writers and creators, but yeah, it's true. Yay us. I guess it's a good thing, because it means we are the guardians and historians of our art form. In a sense, we are the "watchers" of comic-books. You could call it a sacred duty, or an extemely stupid waste of time, but it's a hobby like any other. After all, if a character gets ruined by bad writing or a shitty plotline, (Black Panther under Hudlin, DS losing to Supes, Onslaught Reborn, the massive jobbing of old school characters like Apoc, Magneto and god knows who else), who except us, the true fans and connoisseurs of the medium, has the right and ability to judge it?


Not meant to be taken nearly as seriously as it sounds, but something to consider. And yes, I do think comics/manga/graphic novels/etc. are an art form.

I think the handbooks have Surfer and Hulk as having higher durablity than Thanos....

I really don't see the big hatred against the handbooks. They are just a loose base for where a character is normally around weather they go a bit above or under that is all in the writers hands, but how many of the showings are consistantly that much different..not too many.

Look at it this way they could be a lot worse..

Originally posted by TricksterPriest

Not meant to be taken nearly as seriously as it sounds, but something to consider. And yes, I do think comics/manga/graphic novels/etc. are an art form. I'll back that up. I also believe comics to be an art-form, however I don't believe it's always been that way. I think that comics evolved into an art form...probably in the late 80's early 90's. When such artists as Jim Lee, John Romita Jr., Todd Mcfarlane, Erik Larsen, and Sam Kieth. I know I missed a few but these fellas were getting a lot of press time around there and I've collected quite a few of their works. They're still working a lot and really upped the ante (so to speak) for artists around. Again I'm aware I didn't list all of them but I think people get the general idea. Since that time frame I feel that comic books have developed into an art style but before that it was quite possibly cheap entertainment. Sorry folks.


Back on topic: Why was Wonder Man placed in the same category as Hulk? Do we really believe that?

That's the problem with having a system of class 1-100 based on tons. It should be more along the lines of power ratio. Based on lifting 100 tons, guys like Ben Grimm, Colossus, etc who have never lifted 100 tons will get thrown in there because they're strong dudes. However, if it went by power ratio, then it would probably be more accurate, and class 100 would be reserved for those such as Beta Ray Bill, Hercules, Thor, Hulk, Wonder-man, etc.


If you take Handbooks as the bibles of the MU, then you're on a large form of crack, because sometimes Marvel's left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing.

Handbooks = crap

That's another thing. Just because Iron Man can lift that much for 2 seconds doesn't really merit him a place in that category.

The thing about him currently being listed as a class 90 makes sense if you look at it as a power level listing, rather than literal tons. I'm pretty sure that older models have lifted much more than that.

Just 90 tons? I don't think so.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Kinda scary that a bunch of guys on an internet forum know more about comics than the actual writers and creators, but yeah, it's true. Yay us. I guess it's a good thing, because it means we are the guardians and historians of our art form. In a sense, we are the "watchers" of comic-books. You could call it a sacred duty, or an extemely stupid waste of time, but it's a hobby like any other. After all, if a character gets ruined by bad writing or a shitty plotline, (Black Panther under Hudlin, DS losing to Supes, Onslaught Reborn, the massive jobbing of old school characters like Apoc, Magneto and god knows who else), who except us, the true fans and connoisseurs of the medium, has the right and ability to judge it?


Not meant to be taken nearly as seriously as it sounds, but something to consider. And yes, I do think comics/manga/graphic novels/etc. are an art form.

Great post. And I like thinking of myself as a "Watcher"



lol

Originally posted by Scoobless
Most handbook facts haven't changed in decades.

Annihilus, for instance, was never a big deal before annihilation, so his handbook stats reflect his abilities back when he first appeared.

Never a big deal?!?

He's always been one of the biggest villains in the MU

I mean for pete's sake he rules over the Negative Zone

Do you know how many stories take place in the negative zone?!?

Originally posted by Grimm22
Never a big deal?!?

He's always been one of the biggest villains in the MU

I mean for pete's sake he rules over the Negative Zone

Do you know how many stories take place in the negative zone?!?

Two?

Seriously, he was just a plot device FF villian. Who did he really ever beat before smiting Quasar in Nova's Annihilation prelude?

Wonder Man is in Hulk's class with the super heavyweights, yes.

Maybe it was years ago, when I heard a train engine weighed 200 tons, then seeing some comic character lifting a lot more than they were capable of - don't remember who.
Writers don't have be such sticklers for stats; just don't get stupid.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Two?

Seriously, he was just a plot device FF villian. Who did he really ever beat before smiting Quasar in Nova's Annihilation prelude? One-shotted Thor?
Beat Surfer?
...

I'm out.
thumbs_up

This thread is ridiculous.

Originally posted by bigbran
One-shotted Thor?
Beat Surfer?
...

I'm out.
thumbs_up

K, cool. I didn't really know, so I was just finding out.

Originally posted by Murda Ma$e
This thread is ridiculous.

Yeah well....you're a ridiculous thread!

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yeah well....you're a ridiculous thread!




I know, I was talking about me.