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I may be wrong, but I think that this is constantly not considered in any debate of Spider-Man vs a street leveler:

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
Also, Spider-Man has always been shown to be extremely quick in his own right, but as always, character is ignored.

(Part of the reason I hate CBR style debates is the fact that you start to read comics for feats, and neglect the character completely)

It's like the difference between Thor and Beta Ray Bill in character. When it comes to battle, Thor is slow, seemingly clumsy, and a complete showoff, whereas Bill brings the pain fast and hard, and gets the job done quick. He hates idle talk.

Now, lets compare Spider-man's character to Wolverine. Wolverine is very much a "bring the pain" type that holds back none, and I mean NONE or his abilities. He's got the reluctance of a drunk girl at Mardi Gras.
Spider-Man is reserved, and second guesses himself. If he were Gladiator, he would be quite possibly the weakest member of the Imperial Guard. I can't think of a time when Spider-Man didn't second guess himself once in a fight unless he's so far and above his opponent that it's ridiculous. More times than not, he'd rather talk the opponent down than fight. That's why he gets punked by street levelers. Now think of him when he's fighting an opponent who outclasses him, like Iron Man, Silver Surfer, Firelord. He's bouncing all over the place, and is portrayed like the handbooks describe him.

A Superhuman.

So saying "it's all because of the Spider-Sense" is selling the character extremely short. If we gave Ben Grimm a spider-sense, that he'd be pulling off the same stuff?

No. You would have to be superhuman for it to work. Give a slug Spider-sense, and all they know is when they're gonna die.

Sometimes I swear to God, Spider-Man would get more respect on the net if he were a f*#@ing ninja.

Oh please, if anything, Spiderman is overrated on this site then compared to his comic book counterpart.

Originally posted by masterbruce
Oh please, if anything, Spiderman is overrated on this site then compared to his comic book counterpart.

I dont think so somehow.

Originally posted by masterbruce
Oh please, if anything, Spiderman is overrated on this site then compared to his comic book counterpart.

Would you read the post instead of saying something random? It's a character comparison, not a question of underrated or overrated.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
I may be wrong, but I think that this is constantly not considered in any debate of Spider-Man vs a street leveler: Excellent ****ng post... it's quite apparent that this board is biased towards MA's. Very well said!

It's alot like Flash, he's a different beast on the forums not holding back.

If Spider-Man had exactly the same powers, but with a whole other personality - dark, menacing, deadly - he would be rated much higher when debating skills, or when debating Spider-Man vs a street leveler.

I know it's stupid, but that's the way things are.

Originally posted by Kid Kurdy
If Spider-Man had exactly the same powers, but with a whole other personality - dark, menacing, deadly - he would be rated much higher when debating skills, or when debating Spider-Man vs a street leveler.

I know it's stupid, but that's the way things are. Basically, it's like "Who wants to see a guy in corny looking tights beat badass Wolverine?"
Or:

"Who wants to see a guy in corny looking tights beat An American Hero?"

The irony of this is that these other characters have lesser abilities but use skills to make them appear as fast, and that is catalouged as actually having the actual talent!

Absurd... but it's the way things are.

You can't compare Spiderman to someone like Silver Surfer in any way, shape, or form.


Silver Surfer holds back FAR more than Spiderman has.....In fact, I have the graphic novel entitled Stormbreaker, starring Beta Ray Bill, Asteroth, Galactus, and Stardust....

The way Spiderman was able to kick Beta Ray Bill down, is absurd....total PIS in my opinion....

Beta Ray Bill survived a planet exploding in his face, but then is kicked down by Spiderman?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You can't compare Spiderman to someone like Silver Surfer in any way, shape, or form.


Silver Surfer holds back FAR more than Spiderman has.....In fact, I have the graphic novel entitled Stormbreaker, starring Beta Ray Bill, Asteroth, Galactus, and Stardust....

The way Spiderman was able to kick Beta Ray Bill down, is absurd....total PIS in my opinion....

Beta Ray Bill survived a planet exploding in his face, but then is kicked down by Spiderman?


Of course BRB and SS wouldn't lose to Spiderman, neither would Iron Man in a non plot device (note different from PIS) fight, the point is that Spiderman wouldn't hold back on these characters like he would on say, Daredevil. And Spiderman does hold back quite a bit, how often have you seen him KO someone, even a person?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You can't compare Spiderman to someone like Silver Surfer in any way, shape, or form.


Silver Surfer holds back FAR more than Spiderman has.....In fact, I have the graphic novel entitled Stormbreaker, starring Beta Ray Bill, Asteroth, Galactus, and Stardust....

The way Spiderman was able to kick Beta Ray Bill down, is absurd....total PIS in my opinion....

Beta Ray Bill survived a planet exploding in his face, but then is kicked down by Spiderman?
You do realize Spider-Man is known for holding back ? He holds back way too much if you ask me.

Same thing for Surfer, but his powers are, like all (half) cosmic beings, not very well defined, so it's difficult to say.

But I agree, BRB would kill Spider-Man.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Beta Ray Bill survived a planet exploding in his face, but then is kicked down by Spiderman?




There's a difference between the hits and situation. For example, you can take a heavyweight fighter, who is used to taking bombs in the face in the ring every week, but if you were to start a conversation with him on the street, start talking, and in the middle of a sentence, punch him as hard as you can in the jaw, there's a considerably large chance it's going to knock him down, or at least stun him.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Basically, it's like "Who wants to see a guy in corny looking tights beat badass Wolverine?"
Or:

"Who wants to see a guy in corny looking tights beat An American Hero?"

The irony of this is that these other characters have lesser abilities but use skills to make them appear as fast, and that is catalouged as actually having the actual talent!

Absurd... but it's the way things are.

*sigh* Nevermind....

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You can't compare Spiderman to someone like Silver Surfer in any way, shape, or form.


Silver Surfer holds back FAR more than Spiderman has.....In fact, I have the graphic novel entitled Stormbreaker, starring Beta Ray Bill, Asteroth, Galactus, and Stardust....

The way Spiderman was able to kick Beta Ray Bill down, is absurd....total PIS in my opinion....

Beta Ray Bill survived a planet exploding in his face, but then is kicked down by Spiderman?



I could kick down Beta Ray Bill. Seriously. Unless he weighs like a ton or something then I might have to rock him back and forth.

Originally posted by Alfheim
*sigh* Nevermind.... Lol I know it's not you, but it's typically what fanboys think.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Part of the reason I hate CBR style debates is the fact that you start to read comics for feats, and neglect the character completely.


Oh, I agree. I've noticed people do that, which is part of the reason I rarely go into verse threads anymore. Another reason is fanboys.....they're....well they're a little insane.

And everyone knows I hate featwars... stupid, circular arguments.

Well, there are two sides to this, and it basically breaks down to:

Spiderman vs. Lower-level characters
Spiderman vs. Higher level characters

And the defining point, the concept that makes all the difference, is the amount of CIS shown within the battle

Take the second one, which I think is most highley addressed in your post, BRH.

Spidey can truly be a monster in his own right when it comes to hanging with the heavy hitters. Yes, alot of it could be attributed to PIS and cash flow in Marvel, but the consistency of this fact is undeniable. When faced with those at higher levels, he becomes superhuman.

However, the reverse is equally true, and I think that this is what is least taken into account on the forums. People easily forget that CIS isn't inolved. Without CIS, your arguing for the characters powers, and not the character. With Spiderman, he's been at both ends of the spectrum. On one hand, he's handing Firelord his ass... on the other, he's worried about losing to Daredevil. Not because of PIS- he generates too much money at Marvel for that to happen as often as it does. People forget that he is capable of underestimating himself to the point where common streetlevelers give him a decent challenge.

Great post as well.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
People forget that he is capable of underestimating himself to the point where common streetlevelers give him a decent challenge.

Please tell me your are not refering to cap. I dont even think DD is a common street leveler considering he used his heighened senses to break a diamond absorbing man.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You can't compare Spiderman to someone like Silver Surfer in any way, shape, or form.


Silver Surfer holds back FAR more than Spiderman has.....In fact, I have the graphic novel entitled Stormbreaker, starring Beta Ray Bill, Asteroth, Galactus, and Stardust....

The way Spiderman was able to kick Beta Ray Bill down, is absurd....total PIS in my opinion....

Beta Ray Bill survived a planet exploding in his face, but then is kicked down by Spiderman?


I love the fact that your poor attempt at trolling backfired.

Maybe if you read what was in the quote, you'd get the point.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Well, there are two sides to this, and it basically breaks down to:

Spiderman vs. Lower-level characters
Spiderman vs. Higher level characters

And the defining point, the concept that makes all the difference, is the amount of CIS shown within the battle

Take the second one, which I think is most highley addressed in your post, BRH.

Spidey can truly be a monster in his own right when it comes to hanging with the heavy hitters. Yes, alot of it could be attributed to PIS and cash flow in Marvel, but the consistency of this fact is undeniable. When faced with those at higher levels, he becomes superhuman.

However, the reverse is equally true, and I think that this is what is least taken into account on the forums. People easily forget that CIS isn't inolved. Without CIS, your arguing for the characters powers, and not the character. With Spiderman, he's been at both ends of the spectrum. On one hand, he's handing Firelord his ass... on the other, he's worried about losing to Daredevil. Not because of PIS- he generates too much money at Marvel for that to happen as often as it does. People forget that he is capable of underestimating himself to the point where common streetlevelers give him a decent challenge.

Good point. Maybe the character is just intimidated heavily by martial artists. It's hard to tell sometimes. More or less it comes down to the fact that Spider-Man's character essentially restricts him from using every ounce of his strength against a foe that is weaker than him, because he'd kill them.

I think he just doesn't want to hurt them, if his family's life was endangered he wouldn't worry about "fighting skill" that much...

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I think he just doesn't want to hurt them, if his family's life was endangered he wouldn't worry about "fighting skill" that much...

I think comics are illogical and i thinks its absurd to try apply reasoning and logic to them .... ALthough extremely fun !

Originally posted by Doctor S.T.D.
I think comics are illogical and i thinks its absurd to try apply reasoning and logic to them .... ALthough extremely fun ! You can't have a debate or discussion without "logic", and you need logic and reasoning with everything you do. Or else I could just make up abilities for Spiderman as I go. Logic is simply internal reference that applies to whatever is discussed and nothing more. If Spiderman fights significantly more ruthless when his family is endangered, then it would be logical to assume he is more of a threat than less of one.

Originally posted by Doctor S.T.D.
I think comics are illogical and i thinks its absurd to try apply reasoning and logic to them .... ALthough extremely fun !

Comics do have logic more times than not, but it's only a sense of logic that can be attributed to a world where people have superpowers.

It's a loose "real world" concept, but most comic writers try to keep it as such, unless it's a writer that thinks static electricity can close a wormhole.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
I love the fact that your poor attempt at trolling backfired.

Maybe if you read what was in the quote, you'd get the point.


wtf are you talking about ?

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I could kick down Beta Ray Bill. Seriously. Unless he weighs like a ton or something then I might have to rock him back and forth.


Yes, the same way I could knock down Goku or Freiza. Guess what, I also have the power to break Silver Surfer's arm








It's PIS in my opinion...Spiderman does not have the physical strength to knock down someone like Beta Ray Bill....

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I could kick down Beta Ray Bill. Seriously. Unless he weighs like a ton or something then I might have to rock him back and forth.

He weighs about 480 pounds, and is six foot seven.

I'm about 260 and am six foot two, and have a hard time knocking over my cousin who weighs a little more than me who is six foot seven.

I get your point though.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Yes, the same way I could knock down Goku or Freiza. Guess what, I also have the power to break Silver Surfer's arm



It's PIS in my opinion...Spiderman does not have the physical strength to knock down someone like Beta Ray Bill....

Bro, you're missing the point. Unless Beta Ray Bill has a FAR greater gravitational attraction to the ground than any one else (i.e., the Blob), given his size and proportional weight, anyone could knock him over if he is unprepared/not braced for the attack. It has nothing to do with hurting him, as I would cause him absolutely no harm whatsoever. It's all about common sense.

Agreed...

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Bro, you're missing the point. Unless Beta Ray Bill has a FAR greater gravitational attraction to the ground than any one else (i.e., the Blob), given his size and proportional weight, anyone could knock him over if he is unprepared/not braced for the attack. It has nothing to do with hurting him, as I would cause him absolutely no harm whatsoever. It's all about common sense. You do know that only goes so far right. For instance hit a fat 250 pound guy then hit a muscled 250 pound guy and see the difference. His muscles better absorbs and resists the impact.

Point blank is if you are something like 20 times as strong as someone and awake your not getting knocked over. I mean muscles contract absorb and break momentum thrown at them. It's simple Spider-man who is only a 25 tonner would basically be hitting a brick wall for a normal human. Why because the tightinging of his muscles from reaction would literallt expel any force used against him.

Basically the only way Spiderman would have a chance to knock over someone like Beta Ray Bill is he was swinging at full speed and BRB was asleep leaning against something and Spiderman hit him enough to break the support thus cuasing him to loose his balance.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
I may be wrong, but I think that this is constantly not considered in any debate of Spider-Man vs a street leveler: Now I understand what your saying here that he still has to be pretty fast and agile to still avoid all the attacks he does which is fine but don't try and take his physical abilites to far he does have his limits.

I know he does. He's been tagged before by the likes of Venom and Carnage, both who are solid mid-tiers.

What I am trying to get across is that you can't just claim "oh, he can't dodge Wolverine" or "He can't dodge Daredevil" when he's dodged faster and tougher than both.

Originally posted by Beta Ray Howard
I know he does. He's been tagged before by the likes of Venom and Carnage, both who are solid mid-tiers.

What I am trying to get across is that you can't just claim "oh, he can't dodge Wolverine" or "He can't dodge Daredevil" when he's dodged faster and tougher than both. He can dodge DD and Wolverine.

Originally posted by Newjak
He can dodge DD and Wolverine.

I know that, and obviously you know that, but there are others that deny it.

That would make a fun thread... who could knock down BRB.

I don't like the idea of an unhitable Spiderman. I had a debate quite some time ago, wether a fully armed Elder Predator would be able to defeat him, and the opposite said that Spiderman is unhitable.

an example.

The Predator tries to shoot Spiderman with many big, but fast projectiles which are guided by a tracking system and while he's airborne he could dodge a smartdisc + the plasma projectiles + nets + melee and the guy said he could evade all that and close in to KO the Predator. Pfft.

Originally posted by Jyppe
I don't like the idea of an unhitable Spiderman. I had a debate quite some time ago, wether a fully armed Elder Predator would be able to defeat him, and the opposite said that Spiderman is unhitable.

an example.

The Predator tries to shoot Spiderman with many big, but fast projectiles which are guided by a tracking system and while he's airborne he could dodge a smartdisc + the plasma projectiles + nets + melee and the guy said he could evade all that and close in to KO the Predator. Pfft. Yeah Spider-man isn't dodging all that. People need to understand that while Spiderman may hold back and while he could dodge a number of street levelers for some time he isn't dodging everything forever.

His Spidersense and agility only go so far.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah Spider-man isn't dodging all that. People need to understand that while Spiderman may hold back and while he could dodge a number of street levelers for some time he isn't dodging everything forever.

His Spidersense and agility only go so far.

Indeed. Although I do get annoyed when people like DD can give him a match.

Originally posted by Newjak
Yeah Spider-man isn't dodging all that. People need to understand that while Spiderman may hold back and while he could dodge a number of street levelers for some time he isn't dodging everything forever.

His Spidersense and agility only go so far.


Exactly! It's kinda hard to dodge something while you've just jumped. Especially if it's tracking.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
That would make a fun thread... who could knock down BRB. make it!

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Bro, you're missing the point. Unless Beta Ray Bill has a FAR greater gravitational attraction to the ground than any one else (i.e., the Blob), given his size and proportional weight, anyone could knock him over if he is unprepared/not braced for the attack. It has nothing to do with hurting him, as I would cause him absolutely no harm whatsoever. It's all about common sense.


Common Sense dictates that a person who survived a planetary explosion in his face, who probably weights massive weight, who has god like strength, could not be knocked down by a human being with genetic enhancement....whether he was aware of his attack or not.



Silver Surfer flew at cosmic speed and he hit Drax the Destroyer...guess what happened ? Silver Surfer fell off his board, and Drax just stood there smiling


Now..take into consideration that Drax the Destroyer is not that much stronger than Silver Surfer....yet even at high speed, Silver Surfer instead of knocking down or impaling Drax, got his ass thrown off his board from the impact....


Likewise, in logic (Even comic book logic), If Spiderman swung to kick Beta Ray Bill, he would have his legs broken....

What about the very, very small but vocal minority of us who hate all that is Spiderman? Where do we go to vent our anger?


youpi

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Common Sense dictates that a person who survived a planetary explosion in his face, who probably weights massive weight, who has god like strength, could not be knocked down by a human being with genetic enhancement....whether he was aware of his attack or not.



Silver Surfer flew at cosmic speed and he hit Drax the Destroyer...guess what happened ? Silver Surfer fell off his board, and Drax just stood there smiling


Now..take into consideration that Drax the Destroyer is not that much stronger than Silver Surfer....yet even at high speed, Silver Surfer instead of knocking down or impaling Drax, got his ass thrown off his board from the impact....


Likewise, in logic (Even comic book logic), If Spiderman swung to kick Beta Ray Bill, he would have his legs broken....
Did Drax have the gem?

Originally posted by long pig
What about the very, very small but vocal minority of us who hate all that is Spiderman? Where do we go to vent our anger?


youpi

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t377889.html smartass

I thought this was about Spiderman?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Common Sense dictates that a person who survived a planetary explosion in his face, who probably weights massive weight, who has god like strength, could not be knocked down by a human being with genetic enhancement....whether he was aware of his attack or not.

Physics would say different. Bill weighs over 600 pounds, but if he stands there and lets someone punch him in the face, and he's offering no resistance whatsoever, provided the person is strong enough he'll bowl over.

Drax has the ability to fly, and therefore can also suspend himself in mid-air and essenially be unmoveable, similar to how Pre-crisis Superman did.

Also, considering Spider-Man has knocked around top tiers for ages, I doubt his legs would break.

His fists didn't break when he ktfoed Firelord, twice.